pentagram meaning???
JEROME D ANDREWS
>i just went to a ritual for imbolc and noticed that lots of folks were wearing
>pentagrams. when i was in junior high, i was part of the "heavy metal
>devil worshipper" crowd and we wore pentagrams to signify the head of the goat
>and satan and everything anti-christian, etc. but now that i am older and
>wiser, i do not believe in satan or anything christian, and i was wondering
>what this symbol means for pagans???????
First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES" not "pentaGRAMS"
Pentacles have a single point of a five pointed star up, while pentagrams have
a single point pointing down and two points up.
I'll prolly step on some Satanist toes for paraphrasing like this, but
whatthahell - Satanists like to take on symbols of established religion, but
reversing them, i.e. a reversed cross. Thus they did with penticle, but since
mainstream people had never seen a penticle before, the five-pointed star in
general has become associated with Satanism.
The "head of the goat" idea was a later addition. Knowledge Sideline: up
until Christians entered into Europe, Satan was pictured as a handsome man.
But when they encountered the many nature religions that included animal-
headed gods. *Poof* All of a sudden, the pope gets a revelation that Satan
is a creature that's human-bodied with animal legs and head. And all of a
sudden to belong to those religions were labelled 'followers of Satan'
SET LectureMode = OFF
(Sorry, I can tend to ramble...)
Jerry, a.k.a
JDA...@utarlg.uta.edu
The Answer is to Question
: First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES" not "pentaGRAMS"
: Pentacles have a single point of a five pointed star up, while pentagrams have
: a single point pointing down and two points up.
and here's yet another opinion to further confuse you. ;)
Pentacles and Pentagrams are terms that are generally interchangable with
each other (the dictionary confirms this), although i have heard some
people split hairs by saying that Pentagrams are the drawn 2-dimensional
representations of the 5-pointed star symbol, while Pentacles are
three-dimensional. Thus the thing the thing that some Witches/Pagans have
on their altar or around their necks is a Pentacle, which is a
round disc with a Pentagram inscribed on it. Jerome's response is the
first i've heard that makes a distinction between the right-side-up and
upside-down versions. Since Gardner and some of the older Witch covens
used pentacle/pentagram symbols in both ways, i'm very reluctant to
ascribe one as an "evil" form and the other as a "good" form.
The Farrar's have something in _The Witches' Bible Compleat_ that
discusses the pentagram. The 5 points stand for the 4 elements (Earth,
Air, Fire, Water) plus Spirit, which is the 5th point, pointing up or
down. the inverted pentagram (point down) is used in the Alexandrian 2nd
degree initiation to symbolize that that person has mastered the elements,
but the Spirit is not yet ruling. The 3rd degree initiation uses the
right-side-up pentagram to symbolize that now the Spirit is directing the
balanced elements. Other interpretations are: right-side-up pentagram
means "Spirit over/directing matter"; inverted pentagram means "Spirit
within/hidden in matter." Also, the right-side-up pentacle/pentagram looks
vaguely like a human form (top point is where the head is, and arms and
legs are spreadeagled), and the inverted pentacle/pentagram looks vaguely
like a goat's head, which some have asserted was an old Pagan God (not
evil, just non-Christian, which to the Christians of the time, was "evil"
enough). The Farrar's also give a couple more esoteric ideas regarding
the Pentagram, and Starhawk makes a relational analogy to 5 Deities within
her tradition (if i remember correctly).
it's true that some satanists use the inverted pentagram. I'm not sure
why, but taking symbols that defy standard "orthodox" religion (in this
case, Christianity) might be one reason. I suspect that a number of teen
"death metal" fans simply use it for shock value, and/or because it's the
"in" thing to do in that crowd. i dont know if "religious Satanists" of
the LaVey type use it, or what it might mean to them.
hope this helps some.
take care,
Kris
NightStalker
> First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES" not "pentaGRAMS"
>Pentacles have a single point of a five pointed star up, while pentagrams have
>a single point pointing down and two points up.
You'll prolly step on some pagan's toes as well, as I don't think this
is the standard meaning for pentagram and pentacle.
For the people that I know, a pentagram is a five pointed star, either
point up or point down, and a pentacle is a five pointed star enclosed
in a circle.
For some groups, upside-down or right-side up has a particular
meaning, and for some it doesn't. For the group that I'm in, the
point up is a drawing or sealing pentagram, and the point down is a
banishing pentagram. When the circle is added to it, it adds a working
boundary around the pentagram for such things as enclosing an
object that you're putting energy into or keeping something from harming
you while you are trying to break a spell put onto it.
Hawke - bisexual, poly, pagan, switch, and proud
*******************************************************************************
"A "practical joker" deserves applause for his wit according to it's quality.
Bastianado is about right. For exceptional wit one might grant keelhauling.
But staking him out to an anthill should be reserved for the very wittiest."
- Lazarus Long
wind...@asylum.sf.ca.us wind...@elf.com
*******************************************************************************
Raven
|Pentacles have a single point of a five pointed star up, while pentagrams have
|a single point pointing down and two points up.
I'm not familiar with that distinction. Often the two words are used
interchangeably, but when I've seen a distinction drawn it's between the
pentagram being just the star figure and the pentaCLE being inside a
cirCLE. In both cases, the single point may be up. If either one has
the single point down, it's referred to as "inverted", which may or may
not have any Satanist connotation; the inverted pentagram (no circle)
is a mark of one of the degrees in a Wiccan tradition, and the United
States Medal of Honor is an inverted five-pointed star, encircled.
Also, please notice that SOME "pentacles" have six points; some of them
(whether five- or six-pointed) are inscribed in straight-line figures,
i.e. pentagons or hexagons; some of them have other figures inscribed
inside them; and some of them are much more complicated than the simple
shapes we're all familiar with, witness the "recursive hexagram".
-- Raven (JSi...@Music.Lib.MATC.Edu). [All standard disclaimers apply]
JEROME D ANDREWS
>For the people that I know, a pentagram is a five pointed star, either
>point up or point down, and a pentacle is a five pointed star enclosed
>in a circle.
I've known people that also use that definition, but the great majority
seem to use the one I said earlier. It could end up being a "original meaning
vs. commonly accepted meaning" debate. Tell you what, I'll do some more
research on the subject and get back to you on it.
>For some groups, upside-down or right-side up has a particular
>meaning, and for some it doesn't. For the group that I'm in, the
>point up is a drawing or sealing pentagram, and the point down is a
>banishing pentagram. When the circle is added to it, it adds a working
>boundary around the pentagram for such things as enclosing an
>object that you're putting energy into or keeping something from harming
>you while you are trying to break a spell put onto it.
My use (standard disclaimer- I don't believe in "right" or "wrong"
methods, just "what works for me" methods) is to use circle-enclosed when
I'm focusing on myself, and no circle when I'm focusing away from self.
Which (no pun intended) one I use when dealing with objects depends on
whether I want the object linked to me or not.
Jerry, a.k.a
JDA...@utarlg.uta.edu
"Did you ever find yourself suddenly unable to spell the word 'witch'..."
<from Rosencrantz and Gildenstern Are Dead>
Donald Edwards
": First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES" not "pentaGRAMS"
": Pentacles have a single point of a five pointed star up, while pentagrams have
": a single point pointing down and two points up.
"and here's yet another opinion to further confuse you. ;)
"Pentacles and Pentagrams are terms that are generally interchangable with
"each other (the dictionary confirms this), although i have heard some
"people split hairs by saying that Pentagrams are the drawn 2-dimensional
"representations of the 5-pointed star symbol, while Pentacles are
"three-dimensional.
And some dictionaries say that a 6-pointed star is also a pentagram.
Balanone
JEROME D ANDREWS wrote to All
re: Re: pentagram meaning???
JDA> In article <3hdtje$4...@galaxy.ucr.edu>, he...@psych14.ucr.edu
JDA> (Hein) writes...
>i just went to a ritual for imbolc and noticed that lots of folks were wearing
>pentagrams. ...
JDA> First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES"
JDA> not "pentaGRAMS" Pentacles have a single point of a five
JDA> pointed star up, while pentagrams have a single point
JDA> pointing down and two points up.
Think first, research second, think again, and then speak, please.
Pentagrams and pentacles are the same thing -- five-pointed regular
polygons. Pentagram is the more modern and mathematically-oriented
term, while Pentacle is the elder and more obscure (and therefore
more romantic) term. Neither implies any orientation.
Yes, Satanists tend to use the Pentacle with one point down, for
reasons we can go into later. Non-Satanists tend to use the
Pentagram one point up, but there are some Wiccan traditions where
the one-point-down Pentacle is symbolic of Third Degree Initiation
if I remember correctly.
From what I've seen, the Pentagram was first seriously explored in
occult terms by Pythagorus and his school in ancient Greece, and any
and every use of the Pentagram/Pentacle in any orientation I've been
able to find seems to be later than that activity.
Again, the orientation seems to be independent of the symbolism,
and each tradition which uses the Pentacle (Wiccan, Satanic, or other)
places its own meaning on that symbolism.
Balanone
PP
FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/444.15
Internet: Bala...@tefnut.astaroth.sacbbx.com
... Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space.
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jm...@uno.edu
I read in one of Starhawk's books that the difference was that
a pentegram was any five pointed star, while a pentecle was a five
pointed star inscribed into a circle. Is this information incorrect?
Josefa
Tim Maroney
one of the primary emblems of Masonry, from which it attained its
prominence in nineteenth and twentieth century magic. For reasons
probably associated with a new wave of Christian opposition to the
symbol, it was widely replaced with the letter G and is rarely seen
on newer Masonic memorials and temples. For more on the meaning
of the blazing star, see any encyclopedia of Masonry.
--
Tim Maroney. Please CC all public responses to t...@toad.com.
bkr...@seattle.com
IB>JDA> First of all, you probably saw them wearing "pentaCLES"
IB>JDA> not "pentaGRAMS" Pentacles have a single point of a five
IB>JDA> pointed star up, while pentagrams have a single point
IB>JDA> pointing down and two points up.
IB>Think first, research second, think again, and then speak, please.
IB>Pentagrams and pentacles are the same thing -- five-pointed regular
IB>polygons. Pentagram is the more modern and mathematically-oriented
IB>term, while Pentacle is the elder and more obscure (and therefore
IB>more romantic) term. Neither implies any orientation.
IB>Yes, Satanists tend to use the Pentacle with one point down, for
IB>reasons we can go into later. Non-Satanists tend to use the
IB>Pentagram one point up, but there are some Wiccan traditions where
IB>the one-point-down Pentacle is symbolic of Third Degree Initiation
IB>if I remember correctly.
IB>From what I've seen, the Pentagram was first seriously explored in
IB>occult terms by Pythagorus and his school in ancient Greece, and any
IB>and every use of the Pentagram/Pentacle in any orientation I've been
IB>able to find seems to be later than that activity.
IB>Again, the orientation seems to be independent of the symbolism,
IB>and each tradition which uses the Pentacle (Wiccan, Satanic, or other)
IB>places its own meaning on that symbolism.
IB>Balanone
Look again (not a flame) The symbol of the 2nd degree initiation is a
pentagram with the point down. 3rd degree is an upright star with a
triangle above the upper point of the star.
Janus
TimAmmons
is an Intel Troll!
Guardian Dragon
pentagram.
No they are not a pentagram. they are know as the Star of David.
Also know sometimes as the Witch's Star. And from what I have
come to understand it sybolizes the Spirit evolving through the
Self. Where the Pentagram symbolizes many things... but usually
it is humankind or any matter invested with spirit. But my
favorite is the four lower points represent earth, air, fire, and
water (The material world) and the top point represents the
Spirit and how we are trying to rise above the material aspects
of the world.
If anyone feels I am incorrect please feel free to correct me.
Guardian Dragon
Donald Edwards
"peace !
"In article <3hse0m$2...@blarg1.blarg.com>, wa...@blarg.com (Donald Edwards) writes:
"[..]
"|> And some dictionaries say that a 6-pointed star is also a pentagram.
"that's absolutely nonsense. the prefix _penta(?)_ means five.
Hey, *I* agree that it's nonsense, but I confirmed it in an
unabridged dictionary at the library.
Cpt. Trips
that's absolutely nonsense. the prefix _penta(?)_ means five.
b*b,
robert
___________________________________________________________________________
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>====================================+====================================<
| Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas. |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brigid
On 20 Feb 1995, Guardian Dragon wrote:
> >and some dictionarys say that a 6- pointed star is also a
> pentagram.
>
> No they are not a pentagram. they are know as the Star of David.
> But my
> favorite is the four lower points represent earth, air, fire, and
> water (The material world) and the top point represents the
> Spirit and how we are trying to rise above the material aspects
> of the world.
>
> Guardian Dragon
>
>
Actually, this is about the best explanation of the pentagram that I've
seen. When people ask me about my pentagram, I tell them:
The botton four points stand for the four elements of Earth, Air, Fire,
and Water, plus the fifth element on top of Spirit symbolizing Spirit
over matter, and the circle around it represents that it's all tied
together in the circle of life.
I forget where I learned this from, but it's the best and shortest way to
say all you need to say *and* allay any fears they might have of you
being a satanist (and I *have* been asked this before).
B*B
Brigid
Felix Schroeter
Cpt. Trips (karn...@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE) wrote:
# peace !
# In article <3hse0m$2...@blarg1.blarg.com>, wa...@blarg.com (Donald Edwards) writes:
# [..]
# |> And some dictionaries say that a 6-pointed star is also a pentagram.
# that's absolutely nonsense. the prefix _penta(?)_ means five.
You are (ethymologically) right. Still, Webster sez:
pen.ta. cle \' pent- i-k*l\ n [ OIt pentacol, fr. ( assumed) ML pentaculum, prob. fr. Gk
penteX : a 5 -pointed or sometimes 6 -pointed star used as a magical symbol
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
pen.ta. gram \' pent-*-. gram\ n [Gk pentagrammon, fr. penta- + -grammon ( akin to
gramma] letter) - more at GRAM : PENTACLE
So there an old ethymological mechanism has striken: pars pro toto.
As there is in Latin a word which means "roof", but which is used for
"house" too.
So pentacle was at first (I think) specifically the 5-pointed thing,
as magical item. And then its meaning could have been extended to
more star like magical items.
# b*b,
# robert
Blessed Be, Felix.
Raven
|wa...@blarg.com (Donald Edwards) writes:
|[..]
||> And some dictionaries say that a 6-pointed star is also a pentagram.
|
|that's absolutely nonsense. the prefix _penta(?)_ means five.
What you say is true. What Donald Edwards said is also true.
"Truth is stranger than fiction -- because fiction has to make sense."
Balanone
jm...@uno.edu wrote in response to my 2/16 informative posting
Re: pentagram meaning???
>Pentagrams and pentacles are the same thing -- five-pointed regular
>polygons. Pentagram is the more modern and mathematically-oriented
>term, while Pentacle is the elder and more obscure (and therefore
>more romantic) term. Neither implies any orientation.
ju> I read in one of Starhawk's books that the difference
ju> was that a pentegram was any five pointed star, while a
ju> pentecle was a five pointed star inscribed into a circle.
ju> Is this information incorrect?
While at first I thought that might be a good distinction, upon
reflection I feel that distinction is probably too limiting to be valid.
The most general distinction would be that the pentagram is the 5-
pointed star, while a pentacle is a pentagram used for magical (or
religious?) purposes. Alternately, we might say that the pentagram is
the 5-pointed star, while a pentacle is that symbol placed (printed,
inscribed, whatever) onto an object used for magical or religious
purposes.
Now, when a pentagram is inscribed, carved, printed, or pasted onto
an object, it's very often surrounded by a circle, so Starhawk's usage
might not be too far off the mark, even though I don't think it
accurately covers all pentacles.
Balanone
PP
FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/444.15
Internet: Bala...@tefnut.astaroth.sacbbx.com
... Religious error: (A)tone, (R)epent, (I)mmolate?
mo...@inforamp.net
> I read in one of Starhawk's books that the
>star, while a pentecle was a five pointed star
>incorrect?
>
>Josefa
No, it isn't wrong, it just depends on which interpretation you
hear. I have heard that a pentagram is an inverted pentacle,
the same as a pentacle, and that it is a five pointed star that
is not contained in a circle, so it really doesn't seem to
matter what you call it. The thing to be concerned about is
orientation. Satanists use inverted pentacles (ie. point down)
to represent the head of Satan; the two points at the top are
his horns, at the sides, his ears, at the bottom a goatee, and
in the centre his face. Pagans, or wiccans, use the pentacle
with the point up to represent the figure of man rather like Da
Vinci's piece with the man standing arms out with his legs
spread, inside a circle. The top point represents the head,
the points at the side are the arms, and the points at the
bottom are the legs, while the centre is the body. Depending
upon the tradition followed, a pentagram (ie. no circle) is
inscribed on an initiates body for either second or third
degree initiation; it goes from the forehead, to the right
hip, to the left breast, to the right breast, to the left hip,
and back to the forehead. Does this help?
Sharon
<75151...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>>and some dictionarys say that a 6- pointed star is also a
>pentagram.
>
>No they are not a pentagram. they are know as the Star of David.
>Also know sometimes as the Witch's Star. And from what I have
>come to understand it sybolizes the Spirit evolving through the
>Self. Where the Pentagram symbolizes many things... but usually
>it is humankind or any matter invested with spirit. But my
>favorite is the four lower points represent earth, air, fire, and
>water (The material world) and the top point represents the
>Spirit and how we are trying to rise above the material aspects
>of the world.
>
being so intertwined that to take one away would destroy the gesult. Of
course my take is that we can't rise above the material world, it is us, as
we are it.
Sharon
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Sharon A. Steiner | We're all myths. |
| sha...@best.com | |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Spitzer
>
>In Article <3iac3r$cnp$4...@mhade.production.compuserve.com>, Guardian
Dragon
><75151...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>>>and some dictionarys say that a 6- pointed star is also a
>>pentagram.
>>
>>No they are not a pentagram. they are know as the Star of David.
>>Also know sometimes as the Witch's Star. And from what I have
>>come to understand it sybolizes the Spirit evolving through the
>>Self.
The six pointed star (Hexagram) is sometimes called the Star, or Shield
of David. Apearantly, he thought it was cool, used it alot and is now
associated with it.
Since the hexagram is most certainly of Hebrew origin, we can look to
the Cabala (I couldn't care less how to spell it! :) ), as it is the
source of all Jewish/Hebrew math related symbolism.
It is a symbol extracted from the Tree of Life, the grand blue-print of
Cabalistic imagery. The whole system is way too complex to get into in
detail here, so I hope that this makes sense to non-cabalists.
The tree is a compound glyph comprised of circles or points called
Sephiroth (Hebrew for "Sphere") aranged so as to resemble a tree. It
kinda looks like this:
O
O O
----------- (Abyss)
O O
O
O O
O
O
(Yes, I know it looks like an Anhk. It's supposed to!)
The Planets have associations with the spheres.
They are as follows:
Saturn /O\
/ \
Mars Jupiter O--/-----\--O
\/ \/
Sol /\ O /\
/_\ ____/___\
Mercury Venus O \ / O
\/
Luna O
Sorry, that's the best I can to in ASCII!
In this arrangement, the top three spheres (known as the Supernals) are
all represented by Saturn because being "above the Abyss", the Three are
One. For convenience and maybe for other more complex reasons having to
do with the location of the Abyss, Saturn is put at top center. This is
the glyph of the Macrocosm, as represented by the sacred planets and
their relationships to each other.
Earth, the bottom sphere, has been left off. It is the Microcosm, as it
embodies the whole within itself and has a whole bunch of symbolism of
its own, starting with the Pentagram (the elements+ spirit or whatever).
The interwoven triangles thing is a whole other story.
Hope this was helpfull. Hell, I hope it was readable at all!
--Andrew
io...@ix.netcom.com