Sleep Paralysis
Garrison Hilliard
http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
Sleep Paralysis
and
Associated Hypnagogic and Hypnopompic Experiences
Sleep Paralysis
Henry Fuseli
Sleep paralysis, or more properly, sleep paralysis with hypnagogic and
hypnopompic hallucinations have been singled out as a particularly
likely source of beliefs concerning not only alien abductions, but all
manner of beliefs in alternative realities and otherworldly creatures.
Sleep paralysis is a condition in which someone, most often lying in a
supine position, about to drop of to sleep, or just upon waking from
sleep realizes that s/he is unable to move, or speak, or cry out. This
may last a few seconds or several moments, occasionally longer. People
frequently report feeling a "presence" that is often described as
malevolent, threatening, or evil. An intense sense of dread and terror
is very common. The presence is likely to be vaguely felt or sensed
just out of sight but thought to be watching or monitoring, often with
intense interest, sometimes standing by, or sitting on, the bed. On
some occasions the presence may attack, strangling and exerting
crushing pressure on the chest. People also report auditory, visual,
proprioceptive, and tactile hallucinations, as well as floating
sensations and out-of-body experiences (Hufford, 1982). These various
sensory experiences have been referred to collectively as hypnagogic
and hypnopompic experiences (HHEs). People frequently try,
unsuccessfully, to cry out. After seconds or minutes one feels
suddenly released from the paralysis, but may be left with a lingering
anxiety. Extreme effort to move may even produce phantom movements in
which there is proprioceptive feedback of movement that conflicts with
visual disconfirmation of any movement of the limb. People may also
report severe pain in the limbs when trying to move them. Several
recent surveys including our own suggest that between 25-30% of the
population reports that they have experienced at least a mild form of
sleep paralysis at least once and about 20-30% of these have had the
experience on several occasions. A few people may have very elaborate
experiences almost nightly (or many times in a night) for years. Aside
from many of the very disturbing features of the experience itself
(described in succeeding sections) the phenomenon is quite benign. It
was thought in the past that it was a significant part of the
so-called "narcoleptic tetrad", but recent surveys of non-clinical
populations, such as ours, suggest that the prevalence may be as high
among the general population as among diagnosed narcoleptics. For a
summarry of SP Characteristics see Table 1.
--[snipped - FULL article at above URL]-----
traveler
Interesting article, but neither it or anyone else's experience with
sleep paralysis are like the times it has happened to me. I have had
it happen on numerous occasions, especially when I was a kid. It used
to happen when I fell asleep on my back or on one side, but that
doesn't seem to matter anymore. What is common to all the experiences
is that I am trying to awake because I am unable to move and have my
face in the pillow or the blankets wrapped over my nose. I can barely
breathe and I am usually dreaming that I am taking my shirt off over
my head and it is stuck on my head, something like that. I am totally
paralyzed and not getting much oxygen, which obviously makes it worse
because you need it to move. There has never been a sensation of out
of body or anything of that nature, just a feeling of suffocation.
After what feels like minutes of this agonizing state, I work up an
incredible effort to move very suddenly and violently and either get
my face out of the pillow or move the blankets off of me and wake up
in a sweat. It really sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Nothing fun about it at all. If you can't move, you suffocate.
z.z.
>Garrison Hilliard <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org>...
>
>Interesting article, but neither it or anyone else's experience with
>sleep paralysis are like the times it has happened to me.
Actually, yours sounds quite typical from that of my own, early
experiences...and those I've read here. The main difference is that
you've allowed yourself to get caught up in the "fear" loop and can't
seem to get past it.
I have had
>it happen on numerous occasions, especially when I was a kid. It used
>to happen when I fell asleep on my back or on one side, but that
>doesn't seem to matter anymore. What is common to all the experiences
>is that I am trying to awake because I am unable to move and have my
>face in the pillow or the blankets wrapped over my nose. I can barely
>breathe and I am usually dreaming that I am taking my shirt off over
>my head and it is stuck on my head, something like that. I am totally
>paralyzed and not getting much oxygen, which obviously makes it worse
>because you need it to move. There has never been a sensation of out
>of body or anything of that nature, just a feeling of suffocation.
>After what feels like minutes of this agonizing state, I work up an
>incredible effort to move very suddenly and violently and either get
>my face out of the pillow or move the blankets off of me and wake up
>in a sweat. It really sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
>Nothing fun about it at all. If you can't move, you suffocate.
Your very last sentence holds the key to the reason why you're caught
up in a loop; the fact is, you WILL NOT suffocate. It's critical that
you bring your "awake" intellect to the fore, rather than allowing
your emotions to rule. You'll have to find a new way to deal with the
experience, like many of us have, besides giving in to panic. Relax
and think about something else...and do this consistently...only then
will you be able to overcome the fear. Say a prayer; sing a song.
Janice's site has a number of excellent examples of how different
people deal with it...but with similar results: once the fear is
overcome and the mechanism is understood, SP can actually become a
very positive experience.
Remember; you only FEEL like you're suffocating because your diaphram
muscles are still on "automatic", and semi-paralyzed. Whether you
struggle like a madwoman or relax and enjoy the experience, the SP
chemicals will naturally dilute and disappear within a couple of
minutes....might as well use that time productively rather than in
panic, eh?
It will take some number of repetitions and experimentation to
overcome your preconceptions. But it's worth the effort, I assure you.
HTH
z.z.
--
lorz
"Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org...
>
>
>
>
<snip>
Absolutely. All of those symptoms are exactly what my truest feeling OBE's
are like. They don't include dreams or lucid dreams, just the symptoms
above. ". An intense sense of dread and terror", "phantom limbs", "auditory"
symptoms, "trying unsuccessfully to cry out", etc. Notice they say "Sleep
paralysis is a condition in which someone, most often lying in a supine
position, about to drop of to sleep..." I know I have not yet fallen asleep
when this happens. That is what makes it so scary.
I just read that webpage and saved it. Thanks for that. I wish it would have
went more into what causes each sensation. Specifically for me, the loud
hum, buzz (auditory sensations) and swirling, spinning sensations and the
hard almost epileptic type "vibrations".
z.z.
I think it's safe to say that these symptoms occur each and every time
we pass from awake to asleep. In these particular instances when your
intellect stays awake, do they become apparent.
The "feedback" loop has been interrupted; what was barely noticable
becomes amplified through simple recognition...the "vibes" are
probably nothing more than the musculature transiting between being
"active" and being 'sleep-level" relaxed...only you're now aware of
the transition rather than being ignorant of it. What are totally
normal, inner-ear sounds that we usually "filter out" through the
process of inhibition, become the only sound in our world....and so,
we are super-sensitive to them.
Something simple, along those lines, seems the most likely
explanation, imo.
z.z.
--
lorz
"z.z." <zzd...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3d0eeffb...@cnews.newsguy.com...
Yes, and while that all makes sense to me, I wonder why the one time I did
try to just relax and "go with it" as I had been advised, the "vibes" got
more intense. Strong seizure like. Epileptic feeling? (For lack of a better
way to descibe them) And the swirling sensation got stronger as well as the
hummmm, buzzzzz sound got louder and louder too. The one thing I feel
certain of is that I am awake/aware as this is happening.
I'm not saying there is definitely something metaphysical about it I just
wish I had a certain answer with full explanations of each symptom. May be
too much to ask at this time I suppose.
z.z.
Only your neurologist, knows for sure! :)
I don't know, Lorz....just spreading what worked and applied to my own
experience.
z.z.
--
Garrison Hilliard
>>
>> [6]http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
>>
>>
>>
>
><snip>
>
>Absolutely. All of those symptoms are exactly what my truest feeling OBE's
>are like. They don't include dreams or lucid dreams, just the symptoms
>above. ".
Then they were just dreams.
BD
And you, TOWCBN... are a nightmare.
BD
traveler
> On 17 Jun 2002 02:35:06 -0700, vall...@aol.com (traveler) wrote:
Actually, yours sounds quite typical from that of my own, early
> experiences...and those I've read here. The main difference is that
> you've allowed yourself to get caught up in the "fear" loop and can't
> seem to get past it.
Oh, that's cuz I'm just a scaredy cat, unlike you. Seriously, it has
happened so many times that I am not overly afraid when it does. It
simply takes a few moments to come out of it. It is not a state that
is something I can "relax into," though I remain calm when it happens,
but a condition of physically being unable to breathe. It is not
merely a sensation of being unable to breathe, but an actual physical
reality. My face is physically buried in the pillow, and if you can't
move when that happens, you are indeed in danger of suffocation. I
don't accept all the metaphysical explanations for reality that you
do, I will bet. I am not entirely closed to subjective thought, but I
have a scientific mind and cannot simply buy into all of the things I
see on here.
> I have had
> >it happen on numerous occasions, especially when I was a kid. It used
> >to happen when I fell asleep on my back or on one side, but that
> >doesn't seem to matter anymore. What is common to all the experiences
> >is that I am trying to awake because I am unable to move and have my
> >face in the pillow or the blankets wrapped over my nose. I can barely
> >breathe and I am usually dreaming that I am taking my shirt off over
> >my head and it is stuck on my head, something like that. I am totally
> >paralyzed and not getting much oxygen, which obviously makes it worse
> >because you need it to move. There has never been a sensation of out
> >of body or anything of that nature, just a feeling of suffocation.
> >After what feels like minutes of this agonizing state, I work up an
> >incredible effort to move very suddenly and violently and either get
> >my face out of the pillow or move the blankets off of me and wake up
> >in a sweat. It really sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
> >Nothing fun about it at all. If you can't move, you suffocate.
>
> Your very last sentence holds the key to the reason why you're caught
> up in a loop; the fact is, you WILL NOT suffocate.
Sorry to be blunt, but you don't know that. I have read that what
happens to me IS fatal in some cases, analogous to Sudden Infant Death
Syndrome, but in adults, and it is apparently not the same thing as
what you have been discussing vis a vis an out of body experience. I
think it is considered to be an unusual form of sleep apnia, which is
not uncommon in loud snorers, and believe it or not, people
occasionally die from it. This is not to say that what you once
experienced is not valid. I merely reject your contention that what
you experienced is exactly the same.
It's critical that
> you bring your "awake" intellect to the fore,
I do.
rather than allowing
> your emotions to rule.
I don't.
You'll have to find a new way to deal with the
> experience, like many of us have, besides giving in to panic.
I never give in to panic.
Relax
> and think about something else...and do this consistently...only then
> will you be able to overcome the fear. Say a prayer; sing a song.
> Janice's site has a number of excellent examples of how different
> people deal with it...but with similar results: once the fear is
> overcome and the mechanism is understood, SP can actually become a
> very positive experience.
You seem to be talking to yourself about yourself. You have ignored
what I said about my experience and assumed several things that aren't
so.
I think we are talking at cross purposes about two different sorts of
phenomena that seem superficially to be related. I have read some of
the things posted on here and find that I have had experiences with
dreaming that others have written about that I would consider
commonplace occurences where they talk as if it is really something to
behold. I don't claim to be some "expert," but I have had vivid
dreams all my life, some very lucid, others downright mystical and
transcendental, and ALL of them in color, which is not supposed to be
occurring very often. I have done a good deal of flying in my dreams
and that is the neatest thing. Only after many years of discussing
dreams with other people have I found that few people have dreams that
are as neat as mine often are. I have also used my dreams to go
places and to keep things orderly and under control, ala Castenada,
but I have yet to "dream the double," to go somewhere out of body, and
then wake up there in my full corporeal reality. If anyone here has
done that, that is what I would consider true expertise, a truly
mystical experience of the first order. Anyone here done that? Fall
asleep on the West Coast and dream yourself on the East Coast and
actually wake up there? I didn't think so.
> Remember; you only FEEL like you're suffocating because your diaphram
> muscles are still on "automatic", and semi-paralyzed.
No, I AM suffocating because my face is buried in the pillow and I
can't move.
I am breathing through the pillow. I have not stopped breathing. I
simply am not getting much oxygen through the goddamned pillow!
Whether you
> struggle like a madwoman
That would be tough, for I am a 51-year-old man.
or relax and enjoy the experience, the SP
> chemicals will naturally dilute and disappear within a couple of
> minutes....might as well use that time productively rather than in
> panic, eh?
Never said I panicked, just that I find the experience very
unpleasant. And as for "SP chemicals," what is that? Don't hand me a
bunch of mumbo jumbo, please. Let's hear some biochemistry backed up
by good solid research.
> It will take some number of repetitions and experimentation to
> overcome your preconceptions.
It has happened to me dozens of times. There are hardly any
"preconceptions" involved in the experience. Were I to have read
things about it before it ever happened, then I would have
preconceptions about the experience when it finally did.
z.z.
>zzd...@netzero.net (z.z.) wrote in message news:<3d0edeb6...@cnews.newsguy.com>...
>> On 17 Jun 2002 02:35:06 -0700, vall...@aol.com (traveler) wrote:
>
>Actually, yours sounds quite typical from that of my own, early
>> experiences...and those I've read here. The main difference is that
>> you've allowed yourself to get caught up in the "fear" loop and can't
>> seem to get past it.
>
>
>Oh, that's cuz I'm just a scaredy cat, unlike you. Seriously, it has
>happened so many times that I am not overly afraid when it does.
Hi Traveler:
I didn't mean to make it sound like oneupmanship...simply playing the
odds. Fear IS a major factor in many of these experiences and is not
used judgementally...simply as a matter of fact. You can't breathe?
That makes a person scared. No major stretch, there.
What we have here, apparently, is a description of a person who's
sleeping habits (head into pillow) brings about a premature awakening
from REM, whereby the paralyzing neurochemicals that are typical of
REM are still active. That's the long and the short of it. That's the
basis of the Sleep Paralysis experience. Nothing metaphysical or
"neener neener-I'm -braver-than-you-bravado". The only thing that
seperates your experience from that of the typical SP experiencer is
that I underestimated the blockage of the pillow on your breathing;
but everything else I recounted is accurate.
The fear of loss of control of breathing.
The struggling for muscle control.
The only thing missing from your SP experience is the feeling of
"presence" or shadow-figures hovering near the bed; or the
hallucination of an "Old Hag" sitting on the chest.
Just playing the odds.
Sorry I said "madwoman"..please insert "madman", instead.
It
>simply takes a few moments to come out of it. It is not a state that
>is something I can "relax into," though I remain calm when it happens,
>but a condition of physically being unable to breathe. It is not
>merely a sensation of being unable to breathe, but an actual physical
>reality. My face is physically buried in the pillow, and if you can't
>move when that happens, you are indeed in danger of suffocation. I
>don't accept all the metaphysical explanations for reality that you
>do, I will bet. I am not entirely closed to subjective thought, but I
>have a scientific mind and cannot simply buy into all of the things I
>see on here.
Same here: my recountation was based upon the many articles on SP
hallucinations and the very many similar accounts related here in this
newsgroup. Nothing metaphysical about it; people -can- and do use the
SP experience to springboard into an OBE or lucid dreams...you don't
want to explore that aspect, fine, but don't fault me for mentioning
it, or presume that I consider the "experience" of being Out of One's
Body, metaphysical.
That's fine...I was just playing the odds, based upon the many
similare experiences related in the press and here in a-OOB.
>
>It's critical that
>> you bring your "awake" intellect to the fore,
>
>I do.
>
>
> rather than allowing
>> your emotions to rule.
>
>
>I don't.
>
>You'll have to find a new way to deal with the
>> experience, like many of us have, besides giving in to panic.
>
>
>I never give in to panic.
Some of the wording in your original post suggested "panic". If you
now want to back away from that...that's your business. There's no
shame in admitting the experience scared you.
>
>Relax
>> and think about something else...and do this consistently...only then
>> will you be able to overcome the fear. Say a prayer; sing a song.
>> Janice's site has a number of excellent examples of how different
>> people deal with it...but with similar results: once the fear is
>> overcome and the mechanism is understood, SP can actually become a
>> very positive experience.
>
>You seem to be talking to yourself about yourself. You have ignored
>what I said about my experience and assumed several things that aren't
>so.
Perhaps that's so. Again, when reading your original post, it's
apparent that you awoke from REM with the paralyzing neurochemicals
associated with REM, still active. The only part I underestimated was
the very real aspect of your face buried in a pillow; normally, in the
SP experience, this "suffocation" syndrome is imaginary, based on the
fact that breathing is not under conscious control...again, I was
playing the odds...not ignoring, purposely, what was said.
>I think we are talking at cross purposes about two different sorts of
>phenomena that seem superficially to be related. I have read some of
>the things posted on here and find that I have had experiences with
>dreaming that others have written about that I would consider
>commonplace occurences where they talk as if it is really something to
>behold. I don't claim to be some "expert," but I have had vivid
>dreams all my life, some very lucid, others downright mystical and
>transcendental, and ALL of them in color, which is not supposed to be
>occurring very often.
Incorrect; we all dream in color, most of the time. It's normally a
matter of lack of recall.
> I have done a good deal of flying in my dreams
>and that is the neatest thing. Only after many years of discussing
>dreams with other people have I found that few people have dreams that
>are as neat as mine often are. I have also used my dreams to go
>places and to keep things orderly and under control, ala Castenada,
>but I have yet to "dream the double," to go somewhere out of body, and
>then wake up there in my full corporeal reality. If anyone here has
>done that, that is what I would consider true expertise, a truly
>mystical experience of the first order. Anyone here done that? Fall
>asleep on the West Coast and dream yourself on the East Coast and
>actually wake up there? I didn't think so.
>
>> Remember; you only FEEL like you're suffocating because your diaphram
>> muscles are still on "automatic", and semi-paralyzed.
>
>No, I AM suffocating because my face is buried in the pillow and I
>can't move.
>I am breathing through the pillow. I have not stopped breathing. I
>simply am not getting much oxygen through the goddamned pillow!
See above.
>
>Whether you
>> struggle like a madwoman
>
>
>That would be tough, for I am a 51-year-old man.
Sorry, read: madman.
>
>
> or relax and enjoy the experience, the SP
>> chemicals will naturally dilute and disappear within a couple of
>> minutes....might as well use that time productively rather than in
>> panic, eh?
>
>Never said I panicked, just that I find the experience very
>unpleasant. And as for "SP chemicals," what is that? Don't hand me a
>bunch of mumbo jumbo, please. Let's hear some biochemistry backed up
>by good solid research.
Again, this is the basis for the SP experience: paralyzing
neurochemicals are released during REM, apparently to keep the person
from getting up and acting out the dream. In your case, you awoke
prematurely, it seems, from REM, with these neurochemicals still in
your system...that's why you had to struggle before the chemicals
dilute enough to allow you conscious control over your body. Nothing
mumbo jumbo about it...that's the basis of the Sleep Paralyis
experience.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/09/MN56310.DTL
http://www.sleepmedservices.com/101questions/thingsthatgowrong.html#88
http://www.legendsmagazine.net/90/askpsi.htm
I hope that clears up most of the misunderstandings.
z.z.
--
lorz
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:24:49 -0400, "lorz" <lo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"z.z." <zzd...@netzero.net> wrote in message
> >news:3d0eeffb...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> >> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:38:56 -0400, "lorz" <lo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
> >> >news:Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org...
> >> >>
> >> >> http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
Nah. In either case, being the metaphysical or neurological, it's not
something causing any major problems and doesn't even happen as often
anymore so I'll save the dollars and skip the tests. Anyway I guess I enjoy
(in a kind of sick way) even the scariest of my OOB type experiences.
> I don't know, Lorz....just spreading what worked and applied to my own
> experience.
Understood.
lorz
I don't know. I know I am awake. Perhaps they're just a neurological
disorder?
That webpage even says "Sleep paralysis is a condition in which someone,
most often lying in a supine position, about to drop of to sleep..."
I don't have any actual dream or lucid dream going on at the time. I am
aware throughout. And as I said before I'd like to get definite answers for
all the symptoms I get (head buzz, swirling sensation, and extreme spasmy
vibrations) associated with my SP experiences.
I think going to a neuroogist would just costs lots of money for tests that
probably wouldn't give any definite answers and it's not really a "problem"
I have to deal with as much now as I did as when I was a teen and in my
20's.
G EddieA95
>merely a sensation of being unable to breathe, but an actual physical
>reality. My face is physically buried in the pillow, and if you can't
>move when that happens, you are indeed in danger of suffocation
During SP, you are *not* in danger of suffocation. Remember, SP is something
done *by your body.* Specifically, your muscle tone is released, so that the
body will not move during dream states, which wastes energy and might be
dangerous. If a serious threat to your body existed, your mind could power up
the body at once.
While in SP your body needs very little breath compared to being awake. So
when your mind wakes up and body doesn't, you have a sense of not getting
sufficient breath, and you have no control of your chest muscles. But your
body is not short of oxygen; that would wake those muscles up like a shock.
Corey
Yes that's the old brain people hypothesis describing the symptoms of the
"state" and assuming it is a malfunction of the brain. Now why are you
unable to prove it?
end.
John M Price PhD
: "Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
: news:Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org...
:>
:> http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
:>
:>
:>
:> Sleep Paralysis
:> and
:> Associated Hypnagogic and Hypnopompic Experiences
:>
:> Sleep Paralysis
:>
:> Henry Fuseli
: Corey Says-
: Yes that's the old brain people hypothesis describing the symptoms of the
: "state" and assuming it is a malfunction of the brain. Now why are you
: unable to prove it?
Prove it? hat would be proof for you. There are transcranial magnetic
stimulation studies demonstrating ghosts, so what's so hard about
this? Have you read the whole article?
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
A birth superstition:
Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace,
Wednesday's child is sorry and sad,
Thursday's child is merry and glad,
Friday's child is loving and giving,
And Saturday's child must work for a living,
But the child that is born on the Sabbath Day
Is bonny and merry and glad and gay.
Corey
"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:3d0ff...@news3.calweb.com...
> In alt.out-of-body article
<6bRP8.3810$uH2....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Corey
<weir...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> : "Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
> : news:Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org...
> :>
> :> http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
> :>
> :>
> :>
> :> Sleep Paralysis
> :> and
> :> Associated Hypnagogic and Hypnopompic Experiences
> :>
> :> Sleep Paralysis
> :>
> :> Henry Fuseli
> : Corey Says-
>
> : Yes that's the old brain people hypothesis describing the symptoms of
the
> : "state" and assuming it is a malfunction of the brain. Now why are you
> : unable to prove it?
>
> Prove it? hat would be proof for you. There are transcranial magnetic
> stimulation studies demonstrating ghosts, so what's so hard about
> this? Have you read the whole article?
Corey Says-
Proves nothing. Magnetic stimulation could just as likely be releasing the
being from the hold of the brain. Hasn't this occurred to you so called
scientists? Of course you cling to your "in the box" faith in nothing. End.
David Mitchell
>
> Corey Says-
>
> Proves nothing. Magnetic stimulation could just as likely be releasing the
> being from the hold of the brain. Hasn't this occurred to you so called
> scientists? Of course you cling to your "in the box" faith in nothing. End.
Corey, I think you're missing the point: when TMS is applied to the
brain it causes many or all of the sensations reported by, for example,
abductees, or people seeing ghosts (fear, perception of sinister shadowy
figures). Personally, I find this very surprising, and I'd like to know
more about it; but it does seem to be real, and it raises a lot of
questions.
Obviously, one might suggest that TMS is somehow "enabling" perception
of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
--
=======================================================================
= David - Visit www.thehungersite.com
= Mitchell - Feed someone for nothing
=======================================================================
z.z.
<da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Corey wrote:
>>
>> Corey Says-
>>
>> Proves nothing. Magnetic stimulation could just as likely be releasing the
>> being from the hold of the brain. Hasn't this occurred to you so called
>> scientists? Of course you cling to your "in the box" faith in nothing. End.
>
>Corey, I think you're missing the point: when TMS is applied to the
>brain it causes many or all of the sensations reported by, for example,
>abductees, or people seeing ghosts (fear, perception of sinister shadowy
>figures). Personally, I find this very surprising, and I'd like to know
>more about it; but it does seem to be real, and it raises a lot of
>questions.
>
>Obviously, one might suggest that TMS is somehow "enabling" perception
>of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
>things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
>around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
For more info on this, go to PubMED and insert, "Persinger MA" into
the search box. Also, insert, "Houran J" for another guy who's looking
for alternate explanations for apparitional phenomena.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
z.z.
--
G EddieA95
>of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
>things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
>around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
Such beings may be *always* just outside our world, not specifically the neuro
lab, but normally invisible, requiring TMS to be seen.
David Mitchell
Sorry; but what exactly do you think is happening here?
Do you think that Strange Alien Beings from Another Dimension are always
hanging around everyone on Earth just in case they go to a lab; or is it
that they only hang around labs, or in bedrooms?
Don't you think it's just a little more likely that TMS is inducing the
experience (by inducing a state to which some people are naturally prone
- temporal lobe hallucinations)?
David Mitchell
> >Obviously, one might suggest that TMS is somehow "enabling" perception
> >of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
> >things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
> >around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
>
> For more info on this, go to PubMED and insert, "Persinger MA" into
> the search box. Also, insert, "Houran J" for another guy who's looking
> for alternate explanations for apparitional phenomena.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
Very interesting thank you.
z.z.
<da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>"z.z." wrote:
>> >Obviously, one might suggest that TMS is somehow "enabling" perception
>> >of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
>> >things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
>> >around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
>>
>> For more info on this, go to PubMED and insert, "Persinger MA" into
>> the search box. Also, insert, "Houran J" for another guy who's looking
>> for alternate explanations for apparitional phenomena.
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
>
>Very interesting thank you.
Yes, lots of good info, there. Glad you found it informative.
z.z.
--
lorz
"David Mitchell" <da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3D1190E7...@edenroad.demon.co.uk...
> Corey wrote:
> >
> > Corey Says-
> >
> > Proves nothing. Magnetic stimulation could just as likely be releasing
the
> > being from the hold of the brain. Hasn't this occurred to you so called
> > scientists? Of course you cling to your "in the box" faith in nothing.
End.
>
> Corey, I think you're missing the point: when TMS is applied to the
> brain it causes many or all of the sensations reported by, for example,
> abductees, or people seeing ghosts (fear, perception of sinister shadowy
> figures). Personally, I find this very surprising, and I'd like to know
> more about it; but it does seem to be real, and it raises a lot of
> questions.
>
> Obviously, one might suggest that TMS is somehow "enabling" perception
> of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
> things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
> around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
I don't know that everyone gets that "fear" with OBE though. I do know that
I get it. I have never *seen* shadowy figures though. I just *feel* fear. I
have heard others say they have never gotten fear.
Does TMS *always* have fear in the results? If so, in this way it would be
different than the results of people who have experienced OOB, no?
David Mitchell
>
> "David Mitchell" <da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3D1190E7...@edenroad.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > of these things, rather than causing them; but I think it's stretching
> > things to suggest that sinister shadowy figures are always hanging
> > around neuroscience labs, "just in case".
>
> I don't know that everyone gets that "fear" with OBE though. I do know that
> I get it. I have never *seen* shadowy figures though. I just *feel* fear. I
> have heard others say they have never gotten fear.
> Does TMS *always* have fear in the results? If so, in this way it would be
> different than the results of people who have experienced OOB, no?
The results you get with TMS rather depend on the intensity, frequency
and location of the stimulus.
Sometimes you can get fear (and even the whole "abductee" experience);
and sometimes you get what might be called "spiritual" feelings - it all
depends.
G EddieA95
>hanging around everyone on Earth just in case they go to a lab; or is it
>that they only hang around labs, or in bedrooms?
>
Not bedrooms, no; most of the time, dreams are nothing but our minds running in
reverse. I have never believed dreams normally had a meaning.
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> "Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSU.4.21.02061...@garcia.efn.org...
> >
> > http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
> Absolutely. All of those symptoms are exactly what my truest feeling OBE's
> are like. They don't include dreams or lucid dreams, just the symptoms
> above. ". An intense sense of dread and terror", "phantom limbs", "auditory"
> symptoms, "trying unsuccessfully to cry out", etc. Notice they say "Sleep
> paralysis is a condition in which someone, most often lying in a supine
> position, about to drop of to sleep..." I know I have not yet fallen asleep
> when this happens. That is what makes it so scary.
Cognitively, maybe you haven't fallen asleep. In other ways, sleep *has*
started--hence the weird sensations we notice (which seem to be worse for
those who panic and struggle to move and cry out). Remember, the brain
consists of multiple systems which aren't always in full coordination as
the brain changes state from sleep to waking and the reverse.
> I just read that webpage and saved it. Thanks for that.
The page comes from a site I've posted here before:
http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html
Remember the survey on another page, which you said you thought you'd
already done?
> I wish it would have
> went more into what causes each sensation. Specifically for me, the loud
> hum, buzz (auditory sensations) and swirling, spinning sensations and the
> hard almost epileptic type "vibrations".
Perhaps your "symptoms" are stronger than average due to inner ear damage
from vertigo in the past? Do you happen to remember if these SP
experiences started before or after your first case of vertigo?
--
Nothing but sweetness can remain when hearts are full of their own
sweetness.
--William Butler Yeats
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> Yes, and while that all makes sense to me, I wonder why the one time I did
> try to just relax and "go with it" as I had been advised, the "vibes" got
> more intense. Strong seizure like. Epileptic feeling? (For lack of a better
> way to descibe them) And the swirling sensation got stronger as well as the
> hummmm, buzzzzz sound got louder and louder too.
This is the reverse of how it is for me and in other cases I'm aware of.
Perhaps for you the idea of relaxing into it generated yet more fear
which worsened the symptoms?
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> > Then they were just dreams.
>
> I don't know. I know I am awake. Perhaps they're just a neurological
> disorder?
I'd call them protodream experiences--you're in a transitional state
between waking and sleeping, not in a full-fledged dream.
> That webpage even says "Sleep paralysis is a condition in which someone,
> most often lying in a supine position, about to drop of to sleep..."
> I don't have any actual dream or lucid dream going on at the time. I am
> aware throughout. And as I said before I'd like to get definite answers for
> all the symptoms I get (head buzz, swirling sensation, and extreme spasmy
> vibrations) associated with my SP experiences.
You won't get definite answers as to what causes what unless and until
these experiences are studied in the lab with the goal of investigating
the physiological origins of each symptom, which I doubt is a high
priority.
It certainly doesn't matter to me to know definitively exactly what
causes what; educated guesses and the assumption that there almost
certainly *is* a physiological basis for each symptom will do for me.
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> I don't know that everyone gets that "fear" with OBE though. I do know that
> I get it. I have never *seen* shadowy figures though. I just *feel* fear. I
> have heard others say they have never gotten fear.
Some never do; some do at first then overcome it and have it no more.
Janice
vall...@aol.com says...
> > the SP
> > chemicals will naturally dilute and disappear within a couple of
> > minutes....might as well use that time productively rather than in
> > panic, eh?
>
> Never said I panicked, just that I find the experience very
> unpleasant. And as for "SP chemicals," what is that? Don't hand me a
> bunch of mumbo jumbo, please. Let's hear some biochemistry backed up
> by good solid research.
from The Dreaming Brain by J. Allan Hobson, a noted neurophysiologist and
sleep researcher:
'Motor acts appear to be canceled by inhibition of motor-command neurons
in the spinal cord and brain stem. This output blockade also prevents
the disruption of sleep by the sensory stimulation that such movement
would necessarily feed back to the brain. . . . In an elegant series of
experiments, [Pompeiano] convincingly demonstrated that the final
common-path motor neurons are actively inhibited via the physiological
mechanism of post-synaptic inhibition. Pompeiano's evidence suggested
that the origin of these post-synaptic inhibitory signals is, again, the
brain stem. Some of the reticular neurons, activated via aminergic
disinhibition, are sending "no go" commands down to the final
common-path motor neurons in the spinal cord, while others are
conducting "go" commands to the upper levels of the motor system. This
is a "zero-sum" game as far as motor output is concerned: internal motor
commands are generated, but their external activation is effectively
canceled by concomitant inhibitory signals.'
lorz
"Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1780117f7...@cnews.newsguy.com...
Yes. I do remember doing the survey but don't remember reading that
particulr article.
>
> > I wish it would have
> > went more into what causes each sensation. Specifically for me, the loud
> > hum, buzz (auditory sensations) and swirling, spinning sensations and
the
> > hard almost epileptic type "vibrations".
>
> Perhaps your "symptoms" are stronger than average due to inner ear damage
> from vertigo in the past? Do you happen to remember if these SP
> experiences started before or after your first case of vertigo?
>
SP started in my preteen years from what I remember. Vertigo started in my
20's. I only experienced vertigo a few times. One time I was pregnant which
seemed to bring it on and a couple times with inner ear infections. Maybe 3
to 4 times ever.
lorz
> In article <NLpP8.1150$Hl6....@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> > Yes, and while that all makes sense to me, I wonder why the one time I
did
> > try to just relax and "go with it" as I had been advised, the "vibes"
got
> > more intense. Strong seizure like. Epileptic feeling? (For lack of a
better
> > way to descibe them) And the swirling sensation got stronger as well as
the
> > hummmm, buzzzzz sound got louder and louder too.
>
> This is the reverse of how it is for me and in other cases I'm aware of.
> Perhaps for you the idea of relaxing into it generated yet more fear
> which worsened the symptoms?
Could be. I admit I was still very afraid. I just decided to go with it
though to see what happened.
lorz
> In article <lYGP8.5267$Z8.3...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> >
> > "Garrison Hilliard" <garr...@efn.org> wrote in message
> > news:aelicj$b38$1...@news.efn.org...
>
> > > Then they were just dreams.
> >
> > I don't know. I know I am awake. Perhaps they're just a neurological
> > disorder?
>
> I'd call them protodream experiences--you're in a transitional state
> between waking and sleeping, not in a full-fledged dream.
>
> > That webpage even says "Sleep paralysis is a condition in which someone,
> > most often lying in a supine position, about to drop of to sleep..."
> > I don't have any actual dream or lucid dream going on at the time. I am
> > aware throughout. And as I said before I'd like to get definite answers
for
> > all the symptoms I get (head buzz, swirling sensation, and extreme
spasmy
> > vibrations) associated with my SP experiences.
>
> You won't get definite answers as to what causes what unless and until
> these experiences are studied in the lab with the goal of investigating
> the physiological origins of each symptom, which I doubt is a high
> priority.
>
> It certainly doesn't matter to me to know definitively exactly what
> causes what; educated guesses and the assumption that there almost
> certainly *is* a physiological basis for each symptom will do for me.
I look at it more as there is a strong possibility that there is a
physiological basis for it all but there is also a possibility (albeit a
weaker one) that it could be something *more*.
lorz
> In article <XDGQ8.4742$jf6.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> > I don't know that everyone gets that "fear" with OBE though. I do know
that
> > I get it. I have never *seen* shadowy figures though. I just *feel*
fear. I
> > have heard others say they have never gotten fear.
>
> Some never do; some do at first then overcome it and have it no more.
I hear ya, Janice ;)
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> > It certainly doesn't matter to me to know definitively exactly what
> > causes what; educated guesses and the assumption that there almost
> > certainly *is* a physiological basis for each symptom will do for me.
>
> I look at it more as there is a strong possibility that there is a
> physiological basis for it all but there is also a possibility (albeit a
> weaker one) that it could be something *more*.
Well, sure, but even if they are something more than physiological, can
they really be considered all that significant? With the possible
exception of the vibrations, you don't hear much about people doing
anything with these perceptions--they seem to be more signposts than
anything, and even then not all OBErs get them.
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> > Perhaps your "symptoms" are stronger than average due to inner ear damage
> > from vertigo in the past? Do you happen to remember if these SP
> > experiences started before or after your first case of vertigo?
> >
>
> SP started in my preteen years from what I remember.
And those earliest cases included the swirling effect?
> Vertigo started in my
> 20's. I only experienced vertigo a few times. One time I was pregnant which
> seemed to bring it on and a couple times with inner ear infections. Maybe 3
> to 4 times ever.
When you did have vertigo, was it severe? Do you have major problems
with air pressure changes on airplanes, when riding a car in the
mountains, or when diving, etc.? Just wondering if maybe you have
especially sensitive inner ears!
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
Sometimes I wonder if some fear center in your brain is always stimulated
during your OBEs, in which case you may not be able to do anything about
it. :(
lorz
> In article <CRFR8.49$dU.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> >
> > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1780117f7...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> > > Perhaps your "symptoms" are stronger than average due to inner ear
damage
> > > from vertigo in the past? Do you happen to remember if these SP
> > > experiences started before or after your first case of vertigo?
> > >
> >
> > SP started in my preteen years from what I remember.
>
> And those earliest cases included the swirling effect?
Yes
>
> > Vertigo started in my
> > 20's. I only experienced vertigo a few times. One time I was pregnant
which
> > seemed to bring it on and a couple times with inner ear infections.
Maybe 3
> > to 4 times ever.
>
> When you did have vertigo, was it severe?
I don't think so. More bothersome than anything. I could still function
though.
> Do you have major problems
> with air pressure changes on airplanes, when riding a car in the
> mountains, or when diving, etc.?
No problem on airplanes or when diving. We don't have any mountains in
Florida ;)
>Just wondering if maybe you have
> especially sensitive inner ears!
I don't think so as I have only had vertigo a handful of times. I think the
pregnancy was responsible one time and the another time I did have an ear
infection. The last time though I didn't have an ear infection nor was I
pregnant. But I don't get vertigo often at all.
lorz
> In article <dUFR8.67$dU.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> >
> > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.178013b83...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> > > It certainly doesn't matter to me to know definitively exactly what
> > > causes what; educated guesses and the assumption that there almost
> > > certainly *is* a physiological basis for each symptom will do for me.
> >
> > I look at it more as there is a strong possibility that there is a
> > physiological basis for it all but there is also a possibility (albeit a
> > weaker one) that it could be something *more*.
>
> Well, sure, but even if they are something more than physiological, can
> they really be considered all that significant? With the possible
> exception of the vibrations, you don't hear much about people doing
> anything with these perceptions--they seem to be more signposts than
> anything, and even then not all OBErs get them.
That's true. If they were something more than physiological though, I'd
still like to know what.
lorz
> In article <LUFR8.70$dU.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> >
> > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.178014617...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> > > In article <XDGQ8.4742$jf6.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> > > lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> > >
> > > > I don't know that everyone gets that "fear" with OBE though. I do
know
> > that
> > > > I get it. I have never *seen* shadowy figures though. I just *feel*
> > fear. I
> > > > have heard others say they have never gotten fear.
> > >
> > > Some never do; some do at first then overcome it and have it no more.
> >
> > I hear ya, Janice ;)
>
> Sometimes I wonder if some fear center in your brain is always stimulated
> during your OBEs, in which case you may not be able to do anything about
> it. :(
>
Could be. I really do *feel* totally awake at the time. I think that's where
the fear mainly comes in because I have no control even though I am awake
(it seems). To have no control of your own body is a very scary thing.
Janice
> news:MPG.1781071b3...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> > Do you have major problems
> > with air pressure changes on airplanes, when riding a car in the
> > mountains, or when diving, etc.?
>
> No problem on airplanes or when diving. We don't have any mountains in
> Florida ;)
Don't you ever drive away from Florida?! ;-)
> >Just wondering if maybe you have
> > especially sensitive inner ears!
>
> I don't think so as I have only had vertigo a handful of times. I think the
> pregnancy was responsible one time and the another time I did have an ear
> infection. The last time though I didn't have an ear infection nor was I
> pregnant. But I don't get vertigo often at all.
I only had vertigo the once, but it was severe (intensely nauseating) and
I do have a lot of trouble with my ears on airplanes and in the
mountains. On the other hand I don't get the SP spinning sensation, so
having sensitive inner ears might not be correlated with it at all. I
just can't think of anything else connected with sleep that would give
you that kind of sensation other than a perturbation of the inner
ear/vestibular system.
--
How far away the stars seem, and how far is our first kiss,
and ah, how old my heart.--William Butler Yeats
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html
Janice
> news:MPG.178108b61...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> > Sometimes I wonder if some fear center in your brain is always stimulated
> > during your OBEs, in which case you may not be able to do anything about
> > it. :(
>
> Could be. I really do *feel* totally awake at the time. I think that's where
> the fear mainly comes in because I have no control even though I am awake
> (it seems).
Do you have regular nightmares more often, or less often, than these SP
things?
> To have no control of your own body is a very scary thing.
Which is one reason why most people who experience sleep paralysis are
justifiably very frightened by it, at least at first!
--
How far away the stars seem, and how far is our first kiss,
and ah, how old my heart.--William Butler Yeats
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html
Janice
>
> "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.178108428...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> > In article <dUFR8.67$dU.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> > lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> > >
> > > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.178013b83...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> >
> > > > It certainly doesn't matter to me to know definitively exactly what
> > > > causes what; educated guesses and the assumption that there almost
> > > > certainly *is* a physiological basis for each symptom will do for me.
> > >
> > > I look at it more as there is a strong possibility that there is a
> > > physiological basis for it all but there is also a possibility (albeit a
> > > weaker one) that it could be something *more*.
> >
> > Well, sure, but even if they are something more than physiological, can
> > they really be considered all that significant? With the possible
> > exception of the vibrations, you don't hear much about people doing
> > anything with these perceptions--they seem to be more signposts than
> > anything, and even then not all OBErs get them.
>
> That's true. If they were something more than physiological though, I'd
> still like to know what.
Maybe It is trying to suck your life essence into a swirling vortex of
roiling primordial energy?
Muwahahahaha! 8=}
(Nah, I don't think so.)
--
How far away the stars seem, and how far is our first kiss,
and ah, how old my heart.--William Butler Yeats
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html
Lorz
: In article <veJR8.801$dU.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
: lo...@bellsouth.net says...
: >
: > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
: > news:MPG.1781071b3...@cnews.newsguy.com...
:
: > > Do you have major problems
: > > with air pressure changes on airplanes, when riding a car in the
: > > mountains, or when diving, etc.?
: >
: > No problem on airplanes or when diving. We don't have any mountains in
: > Florida ;)
:
: Don't you ever drive away from Florida?! ;-)
I'd have to drive pretty far to get to mountains! I actually did go over
mountains years ago and hardly remember it. i don't remember any difficulty
though. I do remember sitting on the floorboard of the car I was so
petrified though! I am such a scaredy cat, eh? ;)
:
: > >Just wondering if maybe you have
: > > especially sensitive inner ears!
: >
: > I don't think so as I have only had vertigo a handful of times. I think
the
: > pregnancy was responsible one time and the another time I did have an
ear
: > infection. The last time though I didn't have an ear infection nor was I
: > pregnant. But I don't get vertigo often at all.
:
: I only had vertigo the once, but it was severe (intensely nauseating) and
: I do have a lot of trouble with my ears on airplanes and in the
: mountains. On the other hand I don't get the SP spinning sensation, so
: having sensitive inner ears might not be correlated with it at all. I
: just can't think of anything else connected with sleep that would give
: you that kind of sensation other than a perturbation of the inner
: ear/vestibular system.
The plot thickens...
Lorz
: In article <PfJR8.807$dU.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
Very nice! Hm, syou ure you were at a convention and not visiting a certain
dungeon?
Lorz
: In article <ZhJR8.811$dU.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
: lo...@bellsouth.net says...
: >
: > "Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
: > news:MPG.178108b61...@cnews.newsguy.com...
:
: > > Sometimes I wonder if some fear center in your brain is always
stimulated
: > > during your OBEs, in which case you may not be able to do anything
about
: > > it. :(
: >
: > Could be. I really do *feel* totally awake at the time. I think that's
where
: > the fear mainly comes in because I have no control even though I am
awake
: > (it seems).
:
: Do you have regular nightmares more often, or less often, than these SP
: things?
Oh, more often.
:
: > To have no control of your own body is a very scary thing.
:
: Which is one reason why most people who experience sleep paralysis are
: justifiably very frightened by it, at least at first!
And at second, and third, and fourth....
Janice
Lo...@Bellsouth.net says...> news:MPG.178142f76...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> : Maybe It is trying to suck your life essence into a swirling vortex of
> : roiling primordial energy?
> :
> : Muwahahahaha! 8=}
>
> Very nice! Hm, syou ure you were at a convention and not visiting a certain
> dungeon?
I nodded off too often for it to have been the dungeon. ;-)
David Mitchell
>
> I only had vertigo the once, but it was severe (intensely nauseating) and
> I do have a lot of trouble with my ears on airplanes and in the
> mountains. On the other hand I don't get the SP spinning sensation, so
> having sensitive inner ears might not be correlated with it at all. I
> just can't think of anything else connected with sleep that would give
> you that kind of sensation other than a perturbation of the inner
> ear/vestibular system.
My theory is that it's due to the connection between the position of
your eyes and your sense of position in space (we know that the brain
uses the position of the eyes to supplement the vestibular system).
If you add in the rapid eye movements associated with certain phases of
sleep it doesn't seem inconceivable that under certain conditions the
rapid movement can filter through to the vestibular system and be
interpreted as rocking from side to side.
Certainly, the last time I had the pronounced rocking sensation I think
you're talking about I noticed (as I was coming out of it) that my eyes
were moving precisely in time with it (and contra-phase, IIRC).
lorz
> Janice wrote:
> >
> > I only had vertigo the once, but it was severe (intensely nauseating)
and
> > I do have a lot of trouble with my ears on airplanes and in the
> > mountains. On the other hand I don't get the SP spinning sensation, so
> > having sensitive inner ears might not be correlated with it at all. I
> > just can't think of anything else connected with sleep that would give
> > you that kind of sensation other than a perturbation of the inner
> > ear/vestibular system.
>
> My theory is that it's due to the connection between the position of
> your eyes and your sense of position in space (we know that the brain
> uses the position of the eyes to supplement the vestibular system).
>
> If you add in the rapid eye movements associated with certain phases of
> sleep it doesn't seem inconceivable that under certain conditions the
> rapid movement can filter through to the vestibular system and be
> interpreted as rocking from side to side.
>
> Certainly, the last time I had the pronounced rocking sensation I think
> you're talking about I noticed (as I was coming out of it) that my eyes
> were moving precisely in time with it (and contra-phase, IIRC).
A "rocking sensation" is a definite understatement in my case. It's more
seizure-like. Very hard, very fast, convulsive feeling.
Janice
Lo...@Bellsouth.net says...> news:MPG.17813c06c...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> : Don't you ever drive away from Florida?! ;-)
>
> I'd have to drive pretty far to get to mountains!
No further than NW Georgia.
> I actually did go over
> mountains years ago and hardly remember it. i don't remember any difficulty
> though. I do remember sitting on the floorboard of the car I was so
> petrified though! I am such a scaredy cat, eh? ;)
Er, yeah ...
Yet you're not nervous about things like sky diving??
Janice
Lo...@Bellsouth.net says...
>
> Janice <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.17813d94c...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> : In article <ZhJR8.811$dU.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> : lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> : > To have no control of your own body is a very scary thing.
> :
> : Which is one reason why most people who experience sleep paralysis are
> : justifiably very frightened by it, at least at first!
>
> And at second, and third, and fourth....
Progressive desensitization *should* start occurring at some point ...
;-)
Janice
da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk says...
> Janice wrote:
> >
> > I only had vertigo the once, but it was severe (intensely nauseating) and
> > I do have a lot of trouble with my ears on airplanes and in the
> > mountains. On the other hand I don't get the SP spinning sensation, so
> > having sensitive inner ears might not be correlated with it at all. I
> > just can't think of anything else connected with sleep that would give
> > you that kind of sensation other than a perturbation of the inner
> > ear/vestibular system.
>
> My theory is that it's due to the connection between the position of
> your eyes and your sense of position in space (we know that the brain
> uses the position of the eyes to supplement the vestibular system).
Such that if you have terrific nystagmus going on you can't even open
your eyes without vomiting ... :(
> If you add in the rapid eye movements associated with certain phases of
> sleep it doesn't seem inconceivable that under certain conditions the
> rapid movement can filter through to the vestibular system and be
> interpreted as rocking from side to side.
>
> Certainly, the last time I had the pronounced rocking sensation I think
> you're talking about I noticed (as I was coming out of it) that my eyes
> were moving precisely in time with it (and contra-phase, IIRC).
Rocking sensations I used to get at sleep onset when I was a child, and
your explanation seems plausible, but that's not what Lorene's
describing--she's describing a spinning, swirling effect that I've never
had in association with falling asleep, only with ear-infection-induced
vertigo, and in dreams on rare occasions.
lorz
> In article <uVNR8.11741$_r5.54...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>,
> Lo...@Bellsouth.net says...
> > Janice <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.17813c06c...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> > : Don't you ever drive away from Florida?! ;-)
> >
> > I'd have to drive pretty far to get to mountains!
>
> No further than NW Georgia.
Not right around the corner though.
>
> > I actually did go over
> > mountains years ago and hardly remember it. i don't remember any
difficulty
> > though. I do remember sitting on the floorboard of the car I was so
> > petrified though! I am such a scaredy cat, eh? ;)
>
> Er, yeah ...
>
> Yet you're not nervous about things like sky diving??
Nope. I wear a parachute to skydive ;)
But I bet you knew that.
lorz
> In article <3D18364C...@edenroad.demon.co.uk>,
> da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk says...
> > Janice wrote:
> > >
> > Certainly, the last time I had the pronounced rocking sensation I think
> > you're talking about I noticed (as I was coming out of it) that my eyes
> > were moving precisely in time with it (and contra-phase, IIRC).
>
> Rocking sensations I used to get at sleep onset when I was a child, and
> your explanation seems plausible, but that's not what Lorene's
> describing--she's describing a spinning, swirling effect that I've never
> had in association with falling asleep,
> only with ear-infection-induced
> vertigo, and in dreams on rare occasions.
And the times I have had vertigo, I never go tthat spinning, swirling
sensation with the loud hum, buzz that gets louder and louder at sleep
onset.
The "vibes" (for lack of a better word) are hardly a simple rocking
sensation either.
lorz
> In article <tXNR8.11771$_r5.54...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>,
> Lo...@Bellsouth.net says...
> >
> > Janice <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.17813d94c...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> > : In article <ZhJR8.811$dU.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>,
> > : lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> > : > To have no control of your own body is a very scary thing.
> > :
> > : Which is one reason why most people who experience sleep paralysis are
> > : justifiably very frightened by it, at least at first!
> >
> > And at second, and third, and fourth....
>
> Progressive desensitization *should* start occurring at some point ...
> ;-)
You'd think.
The Countess
lorz <lo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:98jS8.5780$Ji6.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
It should and it can Lorene. Maybe you're too hard on yourself for it, and
that's why it's always in the forefront of your mind. Take a look at fear,
in general, as a positive thing. It keeps you out of trouble. Lets you
know when danger might be near. But all in all it's just a normal human
response. Just think of it as a part of your brain, doing it's job, and
don't dwell on it too much. Accept it as such, and maybe it won't have so
much power over you?
Trish
http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian