Request advice on how to partition a 500GB HDD for dual boot Win7/Ubuntu

[Danny D.]

I'd like to ask advice about partitioning, since I have never
actually partitioned a HDD before, and I've never set up a dual
boot before.

I read at least a dozen articles on partitioning, none of
which said the same thing - so here's my best guess at a
decent setup...

I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7
and Ubuntu on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.

I don't really know what sizes to make the partitions, nor
the file systems to try.

From googling, I see the general plan is to install Win7
Ultimate first, and then the Ubuntu; but I don't want to
mess with the partitions after the fact, so, I would like
to set them up well before hand with Knoppix 7 GParted.

How would you modify this rough partition map for
the various boot, home, swap, and data partitions?

1. Windows 7 boot partition = ~100GB NTFS
2. Window 7 user partition = ~100GB NTFS
3. Linux boot partition = ~25GB Ext3
4. Linux swap partition (16GB RAM x2=32GB) linuxswap
5. Linux home partition = ~100GB Ext3
6. Shared data partition = ~200GB FAT32 (or Ext3 with FSDrive?)

REFERENCES:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html
http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php
http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/05/17/how-to-dual-boot-ubuntu-12-04-and-windows-7/
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:45:35 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D." <dan...@nowhere.invalid>
wrote:

>I'd like to ask advice about partitioning, since I have never
>actually partitioned a HDD before, and I've never set up a dual
>boot before.
>
>I read at least a dozen articles on partitioning, none of
>which said the same thing - so here's my best guess at a
>decent setup...
>
>I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7
>and Ubuntu on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.
>
>I don't really know what sizes to make the partitions, nor
>the file systems to try.
>
>From googling, I see the general plan is to install Win7
>Ultimate first, and then the Ubuntu; but I don't want to
>mess with the partitions after the fact, so, I would like
>to set them up well before hand with Knoppix 7 GParted.
>
>How would you modify this rough partition map for
>the various boot, home, swap, and data partitions?
>
>1. Windows 7 boot partition = ~100GB NTFS
>2. Window 7 user partition = ~100GB NTFS
>3. Linux boot partition = ~25GB Ext3
>4. Linux swap partition (16GB RAM x2=32GB) linuxswap
>5. Linux home partition = ~100GB Ext3
>6. Shared data partition = ~200GB FAT32 (or Ext3 with FSDrive?)

I haven't done it exactly like that, but installing Windows 7 is likely to
overwrite whatever you put there beforehand, so install it first.

Then use some partitioning software that works under Windows to shrink the
Windows partition, and create two empty partitions, one of which you will use
for Linux, and the second of which you can format as an NTFS partition for
shared data (better than FAT 32 if it's a big one, and recent versions of
Linux can read NTFS).

Then install Linux in the blank partition (unformatted) you have created, and
Linux can then create its own home and swap partitions within that.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <l42f1u$94a$5...@news.mixmin.net>, Danny D.
<dan...@nowhere.invalid> writes:
[]

>I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7
>and Ubuntu on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.

[]

>How would you modify this rough partition map for
>the various boot, home, swap, and data partitions?
>
>1. Windows 7 boot partition = ~100GB NTFS
>2. Window 7 user partition = ~100GB NTFS
>3. Linux boot partition = ~25GB Ext3
>4. Linux swap partition (16GB RAM x2=32GB) linuxswap
>5. Linux home partition = ~100GB Ext3
>6. Shared data partition = ~200GB FAT32 (or Ext3 with FSDrive?)

[]
I can't speak for the Linux side. Certainly shared data seems like a
good idea. A lot of people will say NTFS is better than FAT32 (and I
think Linux can access NTFS these days), though I'm not convinced.

I'm not sure your Windows user and boot partitions need to be so large,
or even that they need to be separate. (Are you planning on more than
yourself using this system?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as Windows crashed for the umpteenth time.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:19:49 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

> I haven't done it exactly like that, but installing Windows 7 is likely to
> overwrite whatever you put there beforehand, so install it first.

Thanks for that advice.
To allow Windows to create the partitions is what it says here also:
http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php

Unfortunately, my laptop won't boot to the Windows 7 Ultimate disc
(so I'm stuck, at the very first step!).

I'm not sure why when I boot with the Windows 7 disc in and the
unformatted drive, and the BIOS set propertly, all I get is a blinking
white underline prompt on a black screen.

The laptop has no problem booting to a Knoppix disc, & no problem
booting to a Ubuntu disc, & no problem booting to a Sourceforge rescuecd.

So, I'm stymied in the very first step of the Windows 7 installation.

Q: Is there something special I need to do to make the Lenovo W510
laptop boot to a Windows 7 Ultimate retail installation CD?

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:19:49 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

> installing Windows 7 is likely to
> overwrite whatever you put there beforehand,
> so install it first.

That's good advice, but, some tutorials say just the opposite:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html

Yet, some say to let Windows create the partitions:
http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php

So, that's why I asked.

I don't have the experience to know whether to follow the advice
that says to let Windows create all the partitions; or to follow
the advice that says to create the partitions first. Sigh.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:22:06 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> I can't speak for the Linux side. Certainly shared data seems like a
> good idea. A lot of people will say NTFS is better than FAT32 (and I
> think Linux can access NTFS these days), though I'm not convinced.

I read three different recommendations for shared data file system:
1. This says to use NTFS-3G (but I can't find that option in gparted):
http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php
2. This says to use NTFS for the OS-neutral shared data:
http://lifehacker.com/348858/use-a-single-data-store-when-dual-booting
3. This says to use FAT32 for the shared data:
http://www.matthewjmiller.net/howtos/dual-boot-linux-and-windows/

Can you see why I'm confused and need to ask interactively for advice?

> I'm not sure your Windows user and boot partitions need to be so large,
> or even that they need to be separate.

As with the filesystem type, I see multiple recommendations for the
windows partition size:
a. This one says to make the windows 7 partition only 1GB
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html
b. Yet, this one says to make it 100GB
http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php

> (Are you planning on more than yourself using this system?)

Nope. Just me.

[Richard Kettlewell]

"Danny D." <dan...@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> I'd like to ask advice about partitioning, since I have never
> actually partitioned a HDD before, and I've never set up a dual
> boot before.
>
> I read at least a dozen articles on partitioning, none of
> which said the same thing - so here's my best guess at a
> decent setup...
>
> I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7
> and Ubuntu on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.
>
> I don't really know what sizes to make the partitions, nor
> the file systems to try.
>
> From googling, I see the general plan is to install Win7
> Ultimate first, and then the Ubuntu; but I don't want to
> mess with the partitions after the fact, so, I would like
> to set them up well before hand with Knoppix 7 GParted.
>
> How would you modify this rough partition map for
> the various boot, home, swap, and data partitions?
>
> 1. Windows 7 boot partition = ~100GB NTFS
> 2. Window 7 user partition = ~100GB NTFS
> 3. Linux boot partition = ~25GB Ext3
> 4. Linux swap partition (16GB RAM x2=32GB) linuxswap
> 5. Linux home partition = ~100GB Ext3
> 6. Shared data partition = ~200GB FAT32 (or Ext3 with FSDrive?)

One big-enough Windows partition (also for the shared data), one Linux
root partition, one Linux swap partition, the latter 1GB unless you plan
to suspend in which case the same size as RAM. Use LVM for the Linux
partitions (less pain if you add more storage later).

“swap = twice RAM” is excessive unless you have really strange
application or perhaps if you turn off overcommit (in which case it may
be insufficient).

Don’t forget backups.

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:02 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> Use LVM for the Linux
> partitions (less pain if you add more storage later).

Logical Volume Management?

I don't see that option when I'm using gtparted from the
sourceforge system rescue CD.

At what stage in the dual-boot install is LVM enabled
for the Linux root (/) and swap partitions?

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:02 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> “swap = twice RAM” is excessive unless you have really strange
> application or perhaps if you turn off overcommit (in which case it may
> be insufficient).

OK. I don't have anything strange going on.
I just read that you needed 1.5 to 2x the swap as memory.
I'm fine with smaller amounts.

Thanks,

[Paul]

I have another suggestion for you.

Put your Linux installation on a USB flash key.

That way, there are way fewer "recipe issues" to worry about.

I've installed Linux Mint (Mate interface) on a USB3 flash key,
and I just plug that in and boot from it, when I want a Linux
environment. That way, each of my other hard drives
has one and only one OS and boot manager and things
are really simple. You can create as many and as
varied a set of data partitions as you want, on the
hard drives, and Linux will see them all.

If you intend to "live in Linuxland", I wouldn't do it
that way. But if you "dabble in Linuxland", it's good
enough for that. Like, if you build your own kernels,
the USB key would suck for that. If all you do is
watch a movie or two or edit some email, the USB key
might be good enough for that.

Paul

[Richard Kettlewell]

"Danny D." <dan...@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:02 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

>> Use LVM for the Linux
>> partitions (less pain if you add more storage later).
>
> Logical Volume Management?

Yes.

> I don't see that option when I'm using gtparted from the
> sourceforge system rescue CD.
>
> At what stage in the dual-boot install is LVM enabled
> for the Linux root (/) and swap partitions?

It has to happen after partition creating but before filesystem
creation. If the installer you’re using doesn’t support it, you’ll
either have to do without or choose a different one.

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Bit Twister]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

> I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7
> and Ubuntu on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.
>
> I don't really know what sizes to make the partitions, nor
> the file systems to try.
>
> From googling, I see the general plan is to install Win7
> Ultimate first, and then the Ubuntu; but I don't want to
> mess with the partitions after the fact, so, I would like
> to set them up well before hand with Knoppix 7 GParted.

I highly recommend attempting the win7 install, on your desired
partition setup, boot it, then go back and see if the following
partitions are still good.

I have seen windows, clobber the next partition because the windows
partition did not end on a sector boundary.

> How would you modify this rough partition map for
> the various boot, home, swap, and data partitions?

How you partition your drive depends on usage.

Swap depends on application and how you are using the machine.
If you are going to use hibernation/sleep, swap needs to be size of
memory +512 meg. If using Oracle products, swap has to be much larger.
If none of the above applies, use 1 gig. I am a power user, run
VirtualBox for win7, and any other distributions I want to play with,
numerous cron jobs, and several users, and go through 433+ process
per hour and yet all I have used is 22 meg of swap with 8 gig of ram.

I would also not use the whole drive. For this discussion there are
two DISK partition type. msdos and GUID Partition Table (gpt).

I would go with gpt. That gets rid of the msdos Extended partition and
its limitations.

For your everyday linux work, use ext4. I also suggest you label your
partitions.

Your win7 partition needs to be the size of your install, plus room
for a large update, plus room for install, before deletion. I bought
the Windows 7 Home Premium and it is currently using a little less
than 12 gig. I gave it 25 gig partition. I think your 100gig is a waste.
Then again, it depends on what else you install.

Personally, I would not go with LVM. First time that gets screwed up,
you get to re-install everything installed there.

For my linux stuff, I have a previous, current, next, and backup
partition for the distribution. They are 25gig each. I have a
/accounts partition. Each linux install's /home is in the 25 gig, with
links to /accounts/$USER for files to be shared between installs.

A new release /home/$USER can screw up a current release /home/$USER
desktop configuration files. In my case /home/bittwister/.thunderbird
is linked to /accounts/bittwister/.thunderbird.

That way thunderbird always works regardless of which install I have booted.
I always do clean installs in the next partition, run a install_links
script and my bittwister account looks and runs just like the current install.
From now own, I just cycle through previous, current, next partitions.

Every once in awhile, I use rsync to copy the current install into the
backup partition. That way I have a hot backup in case I screw
something up.

Since I have written a few scripts and have custom cron jobs, I also
have a /local partition for stuff I want shared across installs.
$ ls /local
bin doc ppp sounds tmp cron icons opt

[mechanic]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:54:59 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

>>> Use LVM for the Linux
>>> partitions (less pain if you add more storage later).
>>
>> Logical Volume Management?
>
> Yes.
>
>> I don't see that option when I'm using gtparted from the
>> sourceforge system rescue CD.

No Gparted doesn't talk LVM stuff - the trouble is that some
installers (like the CentOS one) start setting up LV partitions
without so much as a by your leave and no way to stop it. Goodness
knows why, what is the benefit for someone with a single hard disk?
It also makes any operation using umout/mount a real pain.

[Aragorn]

On Monday 21 October 2013 09:52, Danny D. conveyed the following to
alt.os.linux...

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:19:49 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> installing Windows 7 is likely to
>> overwrite whatever you put there beforehand,
>> so install it first.
>
> That's good advice, but, some tutorials say just the opposite:
> http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html

The error referred to in that article comes from the fact that the
Windows partition was resized and Windows detected that.

In order to resize the Windows partition, you must boot it up in "safe
mode" and do it from there. Then, after the resizing, run CHKDSK.EXE or
SCANDISK.EXE or whatever they are called to check whether the filesystem
integrity hasn't been compromised, and if so, then let those tools fix
that.

> Yet, some say to let Windows create the partitions:
> http://www.kitchentablecomputers.com/linux4.php

Let each operating system create its own partitions. Windows doesn't
understand UNIX-style partitions and will with the utmost certaintly
mismanage them.

> So, that's why I asked.
>
> I don't have the experience to know whether to follow the advice
> that says to let Windows create all the partitions; or to follow
> the advice that says to create the partitions first. Sigh.

Install Windows first, and let it create its own partitions. If
possible, tell Windows not to use the whole hard disk as a single
partition. This will save you the effort of having to resize (and
repair) the Windows partition.

If Windows insists that the whole hard disk must be used, create a third
partition, unformatted as a placeholder, but only set up the first two
partitions (as per your suggested partitioning table in the other post)
as the ones you are going to use.

Next, install Ubuntu. When it comes to the parititioning, delete the
third partition and replace it with three new partitions (as per your
own preference, again): a root partition, a swap partition and a /home
partition.

By the way, with 16 GiB of RAM, you don't need a 32 GiB swap partition,
unless you're seeking to hibernate your system /and/ do very heavy stuff
on it. I myself don't hibernate my computers, but this system here has
only 4 GiB of RAM, and I rarely ever hit swap at all - and if I do, then
it's only for a few MiB worth.

You can even tell the Linux kernel to only swap when absolutely
necessary, by way of the following command:

$ sudo 'echo "vm.swappiness=0" >> /etc/sysctl.conf'

--
= Aragorn =
GNU/Linux user #223157 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

[Mike Easter]

Danny D. wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> installing Windows 7 is likely to
>> overwrite whatever you put there beforehand,
>> so install it first.
>
> That's good advice, but, some tutorials say just the opposite:
> http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html

You are mistaken about dedoimedo saying 'the opposite' of SH.

That article primarily assumes that Win7 is already installed, and does
not address itself to primarily installing Win7 at all but simply deals
with adding an Ub to a Win7 computer.


--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Danny D. wrote:

> a. This one says to make the windows 7 partition only 1GB
> http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-7-ubuntu.html

You are trying to 'abbreviate' what the dedoimedo article says and you
are getting it wrong.

The article 'theorizes' at the outset a Win7 (or Vista) already
installed and the disk formatted 'improperly' (for the linux purposes)
because it was done by Win7/Vista and the author wants something like
this instead:

<quote>
Here's the layout I would make. Let's assume a 100GB disk, so we can
relate to partition sizes in relative terms (percentage). I will also
use generic /dev/sdaX names for the partitions.

Windows 7 system partition - 1GB (sda1)
Extended partition - 99GB (sda2)
Windows partition (Windows files) - 20GB (sda5)
Windows data partition (user files) - 60GB (sda6); you can share it in Linux
Linux root - 10GB (sda7)
Linux swap - RAM size, let's assume 2GB (sda8)
Linux home - remaining space (sda9)

This setup does not yield best performance in Linux, because Linux root
and swap are toward the end of the disk, which is slower, but it makes
sense for a typical dual-boot user. Creating this setup AHEAD of any
installation is a wise, healthy move.
/<quote>

But that is not exactly the goal he achieves in the article.


--
Mike Easter

[David W. Hodgins]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 04:24:11 -0400, Danny D. <dan...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:02 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Logical Volume Management?
> I don't see that option when I'm using gtparted from the
> sourceforge system rescue CD.

FYI, for lvm see http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
For luks encryption see http://www.ody.ca/~dwhodgins/Luks-Howto.html

If using diskdrake, and selecting the option to encrypt a filesystem,
it uses the same as option 4 on my website.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)

[David W. Hodgins]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 04:24:11 -0400, Danny D. <dan...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:02 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>
>> Use LVM for the Linux
>> partitions (less pain if you add more storage later).
>
> Logical Volume Management?
> I don't see that option when I'm using gtparted from the
> sourceforge system rescue CD.

The gparted program does not support lvm. To use lvm, you would I
suggest Mageia 3, at this point in time, as it's partitioning tool
diskdrake, does support lvm.

Even on a single disk system, lvm is useful, in that it's much
easier to resize existing file systems. When that single disk does
become full, it's much easier to extend the existing file systems
onto another drive.

> At what stage in the dual-boot install is LVM enabled
> for the Linux root (/) and swap partitions?

If the / filesystem is on lvm, /boot must be in a seperate partition,
so that grub can read the kernel and initrd. The initrd will contain
the lvm program, and instructions to mount / and, if also on lvm,
/swap. If you're using hibernate to disk/resume, it's better to keep
/swap on a regular partition, with a size=ram+1MB, to speed up booting.

On a 500GB drive, I'd give 1GB to /boot, 32GB to / (just in case you
want to experiment with lot's of different software), 100GB to /home,
100 GB to a luks encrypted filesystem for keeping stuff that should
be confidential, and the rest unused, till you see which ones are
full, or want to try other distros. If using lvm, I'd put the swap
partition in between /boot and the lvm partition. If not, I'd put it
between / and /home.

Disclaimer. I'm on the qa team for Mageia linux.

[Eef Hartman]

Danny D. <dan...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> OK. I don't have anything strange going on.
> I just read that you needed 1.5 to 2x the swap as memory.

That was for machines with much less RAM then nowadays (say at most
2 GB). As others already said, when you want to use "suspend to disk"
or crashdumps of memory, go for "a bit more" then RAM-size, otherwise
about 4GB is normally all that's needed.
The "mkswap" man page even suggest 2GB is the maximum useful size:
> The maximum useful size of a swap area depends on the architecture
> and the kernel version. It is roughly 2GiB on i386, PPC, m68k, ARM,
although they also say:
> For kernels after 2.3.3 there is no such limitation.

Note that they don't say it is USEFUL to make such a large swap area.

On my machine here, it's 4GB, and I never ever needed more yet.
At work we've got some machines with 32GB of RAM and only 8GB of swap,
which also works fine.
--
*****************************************************************
** Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. EWI/CE **
** e-mail: E.J.M....@tudelft.nl - phone: +31-15-27 82525 **
*****************************************************************

[Eef Hartman]

Danny D. <dan...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> 1. This says to use NTFS-3G (but I can't find that option in gparted):

ntfs-3g is the software in LINUX you can use for read-write access
to a ntfs-type partition. So options 1 and 2 are the same.

> 2. This says to use NTFS for the OS-neutral shared data:

> 3. This says to use FAT32 for the shared data:

fat32 is ok for smaller partitions, say up to 2 GB. FAT isn't very
efficient on very large partitions. I use it myself for that size on
an older PC (which was delivered with Win-ME, so no ntfs support).

[Patrick]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:37:50 +0000, Bit Twister wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
>
>> I have a new 500 GB HDD, which I want to dual boot Windows7 and Ubuntu
>> on a 64bit laptop with 16GB of memory.
>>
>> I don't really know what sizes to make the partitions, nor the file
>> systems to try.
>>
>> From googling, I see the general plan is to install Win7 Ultimate
>> first, and then the Ubuntu; but I don't want to mess with the
>> partitions after the fact, so, I would like to set them up well before
>> hand with Knoppix 7 GParted.

> For your everyday linux work, use ext4. I also suggest you label your
> partitions.
>
> Your win7 partition needs to be the size of your install, plus room for
> a large update, plus room for install, before deletion. I bought the
> Windows 7 Home Premium and it is currently using a little less than 12
> gig. I gave it 25 gig partition. I think your 100gig is a waste.
> Then again, it depends on what else you install.

If you install all the .NET Framework updates there are you're going to need
50 GB for W7. So with software added in the future 75-100 GB for W7 isn't
bad IMO.

Use ext4 for Linux, everybody does.

Otherwise doesn't look bad at all. 100 GB partitions take awhile to backup
so be prepared for that. I'd probably use two 50 GB partitions for data storage
instead of one 100 GB.