Slackware: the final countdown
GP
only in the current changelog, since he /recovered/ on December 18th. Hey, is
there any way we can order him to get better? But it would certainly be good
news if we learned somebody is teaming with him. Unfortunately, this sounds
like pure utopia.
Instead, we have all sorts of people here who pretend to be "in contact" but
who's names are nowhere to be found on Slackware's site. Try the following
search at Google's:
site:www.slackware.com Keller OR Hicks OR Lizella OR "wombat.san-francisco.ca.us"
This has been an ongoing story for years. The result of having to rely on this
newsgroup to get information is that all too often people are told to RTFM and
are sometimes given plain disinformation.
So that when Mr Hicks writes: "Stay tuned. We should have a public
anonymous ftp server setup come late Saturday evening."(1) that's the one
place I wouldn't take my upgrades from. When changes are approved, they should
be on all mirrors. Final. Hicks' friggin' bullshit is a joke.
(1)
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=10uspku3mfgbafb%40corp.supernews.com&lr=&hl=fr
For years, I've explained you can't run a distro this way, leaving the newbies
taking uneducated guesses at who's real and who's fake. Now that the so-called
Man is all but dead, that the upgrades are not being made, the lack of
structure is more evident.
For what it means, we see that Slackware is dwindling at Distrowatch:
For the last month:
1 Mandrakelinux 1375
2 MEPIS 1366
3 SUSE 1243
4 Ubuntu 1125
5 Fedora 1096
6 Debian 993
7 KNOPPIX 796
8 Gentoo 674
9 Damn Small 573
10 Slackware 560
The likes of Mepis, Ubuntu and even Damn Small Linux have now gotten ahead.
It's getting late. If a minimal structure is not put in place right now,
Slackware will disappear. Luc Cottyn, who's contribution to Slackware has
never been recognized because of a feud where we now see he had every reason
to be mad(1), has "disappered" and nobody raised a finger. After all, we
"still had the code", didn't we? But not much development happened after he left.
(1) By this, I mean that one year after Cottyn stopped developping Swaret, no
update tool has yet replaced it. So he was right to pretend that all the noise
made around slapt-get and such was pure bullshit... at best.
Some people have said that problems with upgrade tools can be deadly but so
can problems in a firewall, a firewall interface, administrative tools such as
those included in KDE or Webmin. And I don't remember that a single security
problem has been noted in swaret, which is a real feat!
The code is open, and the script can be compared from one version to the next
with diff. So, given that, countrary to Mr Hicks' pretentions, an upgrade tool
is nowadays absolutely necessary for a distro to stay afloat, where's the problem?
To me, the lot of Luc Cottyn is truly indicative of how easily manipulation
can operate in subverting the building of a community. This has to change now,
otherwise hoping for users to support Slackware is vain.
In one of his message while he was sick, Patrick said he'd change his modus
operandi soon as he'd get better. Maybe he's not so much better, but the need
for restructuration is more patent now than ever and, despise promises, we
don't see much happening in the changelogs.
It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
that's really true to the Linux spirit.
GP
Cichlidiot
<snip trollish miscontrution of developmental lull due to illness>
> It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
> that's really true to the Linux spirit.
Wee... another Slackware is dead post. Lesse... that gives us another
release or two at least by old Usenet lore right?
Now for the editorial part of today's program... Geeze, get a life. The
guy is sick, not on his death bed. Give him some time to see specialists,
find a diagnosis and get better (and this process could take months). The
lack of updates is not a death knell, it's a recovery lull. Any good
doctor (or manager, but few of those exist) would tell you it's better to
let the person have the time off to recover at the short-term expense of
work rather than let the person work himself into a longer illness. I have
no doubt that once he's completely back on his feet, things will get back
to normal. In the meantime while he's in the quasi-state of uncertain
diagnosis and incomplete treatment, expect things to be sporadic.
Peter
> GP <gil...@inverse.nretla.org> wrote: <snip trollish miscontrution of
> developmental lull due to illness>
>> It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
>> that's really true to the Linux spirit.
>
> Wee... another Slackware is dead post. Lesse... that gives us another
> release or two at least by old Usenet lore right?
>
snip...
> it's better to
> let the person have the time off to recover at the short-term expense of
> work rather than let the person work himself into a longer illness. I have
> no doubt that once he's completely back on his feet, things will get back
> to normal. In the meantime while he's in the quasi-state of uncertain
> diagnosis and incomplete treatment, expect things to be sporadic.
I disagree. Users, businesses, consultants have expectations of varying
degrees. One concern you always see with a sole proprieter is the "what if
you get hit by a bus...what happens to the code?"
I certainly sympathize with Pat and he is in my thoughts a prayers.
However, one needs a stable and well-supported distro, and any threat to
that could induce some to leave. If Pat recovers soon and 10.1 or 11 rolls
out this Spring, then this whole adventure will just be like a bad dream.
However, if the competition rolls out new versions, and Slack's changelog
is as dead as it is now, then people will jump ship. Certainly, the effect
on recent downloads shows a concern by the "masses."
So we will watch and wait to see what happens. Howeverm the GP makes a
valie point that Pat needs to change the organizational structure so that
there is more to Slack than just him.
As you saw from my recent post, I have begun evaluating distros again
after two years on Slack. I hate what I see, but they are all current and
well maintained.
Chu Mai Fat
>
> I certainly sympathize with Pat and he is in my thoughts a prayers.
> However, one needs a stable and well-supported distro........
Pray for that too; surely it'll have the same effect as your prayers
for Pat.
Regards
Chu
~kurt
> GP <gil...@inverse.nretla.org> wrote:
><snip trollish miscontrution of developmental lull due to illness>
>> It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
>> that's really true to the Linux spirit.
>
> Wee... another Slackware is dead post. Lesse... that gives us another
> release or two at least by old Usenet lore right?
>
GP has been saying Slackware is dead for years now. He's kind of looking
for the ultimate Linux experience and if there is anything doesn't seem
perfect about a distro he get's all upset and damns them. I mean, wasn't
there Knoppix, and Gentoo - I think he even left Linux to dabble in the
BSDs in search of that perfection he wants. I used to always think he
was just kind of screwed up in the head - now it appears he is just
another pathetic troll. He gave up on Slackware years ago but he still
harasses the newsgroup. If he isn't a troll, then he should really consider
LFS.
- Kurt
GP
> If Pat recovers soon and 10.1 or 11 rolls
> out this Spring, then this whole adventure will just be like a bad dream.
> However, if the competition rolls out new versions, and Slack's changelog
> is as dead as it is now, then people will jump ship.
(...)
> Pat needs to change the organizational structure so that
> there is more to Slack than just him.
I agree with the second opinion :) That Patrick could get sick, be victim of
an accident, whatever, has always been a concern. Now, we have an illustration
of what happens in such a case and it doesn't look good. So, even if Patrick
was to recover, companies, businesses, consultants would still be very worried.
> As you saw from my recent post, I have begun evaluating distros again
> after two years on Slack.
Me too. But I won't go for a Bed Rat-Fedora product: too much "here's our own
little tool" here and there. On this aspect, Mandrake is even worst. I wish
good luck to Novell, but I'm not part to their trip either.
So, what's left? Debian. With lots of discussion and a new release every third
year.
To me Slackware with swaret and all the tools that come from the community is
just perfect. But it's just pure fantasy for anybody to pretend that providing
a distro can be a one man operation, even if the man is The Man :)
GP
Al. C
>
> For years, I've explained you can't run a distro this way, leaving the
> newbies taking uneducated guesses at who's real and who's fake. Now that the
> so-called Man is all but dead, that the upgrades are not being made, the
> lack of structure is more evident.
>
> For what it means, we see that Slackware is dwindling at Distrowatch:
>
This was an interesting post and I think it had to be said... but I'm not sure
GP said it very well. There is a tone of animosity that I distinctly hear and
I can't help but think he has an agenda of his own.
As for Distrowatch, it is a weathervane, but a weatherwane does not tell you
what the weather is. Distrowatch only measures "hits".
The other day I clicked on Mepis to find out what it was all about (as I think
this is where I would go if Slackware ends.) But I didn't download or install
Mepis, and these would be far better stats to use as a measurement. (I'd love
to see some Linux organization or magazine or even Disrtowatch have an
"International show us your distro day" where people are to go to the polls
and click on a ballot for which distro they actually use. Not sure how you
could keep it honest, but it would be interesting nonetheless.)
Last week I had a long exchange with Pat. I implored him to "modernize" Slack
with a 2.6 and (you will hate this) an apt-get like package management
system. My point was that the biggest criticism that is ALWAYS leveled at
Slack is it's lack of a tried and true dependency checking update system. And
it is the lack of an easy and mostly fool-proof update methodology that helps
to keep Slackware from being one of the top 3 or 4 most popular flavors of
Linux. Whether you like or don't like the Distrowatch stat-keeping method,
you have to admit that you'd like it if Slackware was closer to the top. No,
you won't say so in public because its not "Clue" but in your heart of hearts
you know I'm right.
I also implored Pat to do a better job in marketing Slackware, to make it more
popular as well as to help raise revenue for its expansion (perhaps a paid
staff to do updates, etc.)
Well, of course you know how he answered me. He said what you all have said
for years and years (I've been here about 2 now). Pat does not care if Slack
is popular and he's not interested in it as an income generating endeavor. As
long as he makes enough money to live his lifestyle (which I think is
probably very modest) he is a happy guy.
To Pat, Slackware is the journey, not, as it is to us, the destination. He
sent me the following saying that it sums up the 'philosophy of Slackware'.
He said that Slackware was about making it "easy" for those willing to put in
the effort.
http://fringe.davesource.com/Fringe/Computers/Unix/UNIX_Literary_Style.html
So if you are looking for a Slackware that you can compare with the others in
the Distrowatch list, I don't think it will happen. Pat is crystal clear in
his mind about what Slackware should be all about and just as I was unable to
convince him (and I made a pretty good argument) I don't think anyone here
will either.
> It's getting late. If a minimal structure is not put in place right now,
> Slackware will disappear.
Well, I have to agree that there is the chance that it could drop to the
levels of popularity of Deb stable. But there is a certain population (many
of them here) who will never stop using Slackware, no matter how obsolete it
gets. I'm not one of them and GP is not one of them, but they are here.
>
> It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
> that's really true to the Linux spirit.
>
I think GP summed it up rather well. However, its not that Pat fails to
comprehend that the world moves on, changes are made, new "things" happen,
its just that he sees Slackware as evolutionary and not revolutionary.
I also think that before GP and anyone else is ready to play Taps over
Slackware, that they let a bit of time pass. I understand that there are
plans in the works, that Pat is going to make some changes, and that a
protocol of continuance is being worked on.
We're not going to get a "blessed by Pat" swaret or slapt-get. But that is in
keeping with his philosophy and at the end of the day it is his distro, not
yours, not mine, not ours.
Al Canton, President
Adams-Blake Company, Inc.
http://www.jaya123.com
Scott Cole
> Well, we know Patrick has been sick. There has been entries for only 5
> days, only in the current changelog, since he /recovered/ on December
> 18th. Hey, is there any way we can order him to get better? But it would
> certainly be good news if we learned somebody is teaming with him.
> Unfortunately, this sounds like pure utopia.
I think it is a stretch to say /recovered/. It didn't really sound like he
could be considered stable yet... better for awhile and then worse again.
>
> Instead, we have all sorts of people here who pretend to be "in contact"
> but who's names are nowhere to be found on Slackware's site. Try the
> following search at Google's:
Not sure of the point here. It was obvious from the irc logs that Pat V. has
had some contact with that "great guy" Hicks. I think Al can be believed
when he says he has been carrying on a lengthy and ongoing email
conversation with him.
> This has been an ongoing story for years. The result of having to rely on
> this newsgroup to get information is that all too often people are told to
> RTFM and are sometimes given plain disinformation.
Who has to rely on this newsgroup for info. That is really a bizarre
comment. If you are talking about help for people with questions, compare
the number of people asking for help here with the numbers at
linuxquestions.org or on #slackware at freenode. The purpose of this
newsgroups is basically social in comparison. Whether it is shooting the
shit or flaming or whatever your sport is.
>
> So that when Mr Hicks writes: "Stay tuned. We should have a public
> anonymous ftp server setup come late Saturday evening."(1) that's the one
> place I wouldn't take my upgrades from. When changes are approved, they
> should be on all mirrors. Final. Hicks' friggin' bullshit is a joke.
>
Certainly your choice, but it sounds like the packages made by those guys
you despise so much will be mixed with the GUS people's packages and
offerred as patches. You will likely not know whose package it is you are
using.
> It's getting late. If a minimal structure is not put in place right now,
> Slackware will disappear. Luc Cottyn, who's contribution to Slackware has
> never been recognized because of a feud where we now see he had every
> reason to be mad(1), has "disappered" and nobody raised a finger. After
> all, we "still had the code", didn't we? But not much development happened
> after he left.
I will never understand your love affair with Luc. He brought about his own
demise. Whether you like swaret or not is not really the point.
>
> (1) By this, I mean that one year after Cottyn stopped developping Swaret,
> no update tool has yet replaced it. So he was right to pretend that all
> the noise made around slapt-get and such was pure bullshit... at best.
I don't use either one, so I had no dog in that fight.
>
> Some people have said that problems with upgrade tools can be deadly but
> so can problems in a firewall, a firewall interface, administrative tools
> such as those included in KDE or Webmin. And I don't remember that a
> single security problem has been noted in swaret, which is a real feat!
Most of the problems with swaret at linuxquestions were because people have
no idea of its limitations. They think it is just like apt-get, installing
new packages, removing old ones, changing configs in addition to upgrading
packages.
>
> The code is open, and the script can be compared from one version to the
> next with diff. So, given that, countrary to Mr Hicks' pretentions, an
> upgrade tool is nowadays absolutely necessary for a distro to stay afloat,
> where's the problem?
That isn't just Mr. Hicks' contention, it seems to be Pat's. And since this
is Slackware, his position counts more than anyone else's.
>
> To me, the lot of Luc Cottyn is truly indicative of how easily
> manipulation can operate in subverting the building of a community. This
> has to change now, otherwise hoping for users to support Slackware is
> vain.
People come and people go. Todd at Dropline has left the scene. No cloud
over him. He is just moving on.
Simon
<no.spam...@take.out.adams-blake.no.spam.com> wrote:
> Well, I have to agree that there is the chance that it could drop to the
> levels of popularity of Deb stable. But there is a certain population (many
> of them here) who will never stop using Slackware, no matter how obsolete it
> gets. I'm not one of them and GP is not one of them, but they are here.
I partly agree and partly disagree. If the official Slackware
distribution were to stop being made, someone may choose to fork a new
project to keep it going (obviously not called 'Slackware', though).
If I trust that person enough, I may use that. If I don't trust them
enough or no one forks a new project, then one of two things might
happen:
1) I'll keep my system up-to-date in a Slackware style
2) Something may then exist that suits my needs better, in which case
I'll start using that
--
Simon <si...@no-dns-yet.org.uk> **** GPG: F4A23C69
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
- Douglas Adams
Joost Kremers
> GP wrote:
> This was an interesting post and I think it had to be said... but I'm not sure
> GP said it very well. There is a tone of animosity that I distinctly hear and
> I can't help but think he has an agenda of his own.
i wouldn't really call it that. GP has a posting history in aols, and my
guess is that he is just upset that his perpetual message of doom is never
taken seriously by anyone in here.
> Last week I had a long exchange with Pat. I implored him to "modernize" Slack
> with a 2.6 and (you will hate this) an apt-get like package management
> system. My point was that the biggest criticism that is ALWAYS leveled at
> Slack is it's lack of a tried and true dependency checking update system.
at the same time, it is for many also the one of the main selling points of
the distro. pat would be crazy to mutilate slackware this way...
i for one just don't *want* an apt-get like package management system.
> And
> it is the lack of an easy and mostly fool-proof update methodology that helps
> to keep Slackware from being one of the top 3 or 4 most popular flavors of
> Linux. Whether you like or don't like the Distrowatch stat-keeping method,
> you have to admit that you'd like it if Slackware was closer to the top. No,
> you won't say so in public because its not "Clue" but in your heart of hearts
> you know I'm right.
wrong. please don't assume to know what i or anyone in this group
feels. what i hope is that slackware will continue to exists. i do not care
one bit whether it is high or low in the distrowatch stats.
> So if you are looking for a Slackware that you can compare with the others in
> the Distrowatch list, I don't think it will happen. Pat is crystal clear in
> his mind about what Slackware should be all about and just as I was unable to
> convince him (and I made a pretty good argument) I don't think anyone here
> will either.
many people see slackware as a business, and they believe that a business
should always expand, sort-a like a goal in itself. however, pat doesn't
see it that way, apparently. building a business is obviously not his goal.
a couple of weeks ago a friend of mine came to visit, and at some point in
the evening we ended up in a teeny tiny bar that gave the distinct
impression of never having any customers except its two dozen or so
regulars. when we left there, my friend wondered kind-a non-understanding
where this place was going. a place like this, he argued, has no future!
(btw, he works at a bank... ;-) so, i said, why should it? the owner
probably manages to make a living out of it, and when he dies, the bar will
simply be closed down. then the owner had a good life from it, his regulars
had spent many a good time there, and all is well.
that attitude of pat's, too, at least indirectly, is one of the selling
points of the distro for me. because it means that technical quality will
always be number one for him, and he won't make any concessions to "please"
or "attract" customers.
> Well, I have to agree that there is the chance that it could drop to the
> levels of popularity of Deb stable. But there is a certain population (many
> of them here) who will never stop using Slackware, no matter how obsolete it
> gets. I'm not one of them and GP is not one of them, but they are here.
i think you're wrong there, too. if slackware would cease to be developed,
many people here would probably go on using it for a little while longer,
but gradually everyone will migrate to another distro that is being
maintained. they mighht keep one or two old slackware boxen around, but
they won't use it for new installations.
--
Joost Kremers joostk...@yahoo.com
Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht
EN:SiS(9)
Mario Berger
> Well, we know Patrick has been sick. There has been entries for only 5
Stop declaring Slackware dead FFS.
Fork off your own distro or fuck off.
~Mik
--
"The geek shall inherit the earth."
-- Rainer Wolfcastle in "Undercover Nerd"
Bradley Reed
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:41:04 -0500, Peter wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:02:48 +0000, Cichlidiot wrote:
>
>> it's better to
>> let the person have the time off to recover at the short-term expense of
>> work rather than let the person work himself into a longer illness. I have
>> no doubt that once he's completely back on his feet, things will get back
>> to normal. In the meantime while he's in the quasi-state of uncertain
>> diagnosis and incomplete treatment, expect things to be sporadic.
>
> I disagree. Users, businesses, consultants have expectations of varying
> degrees. One concern you always see with a sole proprieter is the "what if
> you get hit by a bus...what happens to the code?"
>
Users, businesses, consultants, etc. are not what is seems to be
important to Pat. Slackware is his hobby that he develops for his
own enjoyment. If others enjoy it, great. If you don't like it,
there are other distros or you can make your own. If he gets hit by
a bus, we'll all mourn, but the code is GPLed.
> I certainly sympathize with Pat and he is in my thoughts a prayers.
> However, one needs a stable and well-supported distro, and any threat to
> that could induce some to leave.
Who needs a stable and well supported distro? YOU. A lot of people
just need a base to install and then customize to our own tastes. I
am running a system based on Slackware-current, but I have ~800Mb of
self-compiled Slackware packages of software not included with
Slackware.
du -hs ~breed/Packages/
782M /home/breed/Packages/
> If Pat recovers soon and 10.1 or 11 rolls
> out this Spring, then this whole adventure will just be like a bad dream.
> However, if the competition rolls out new versions, and Slack's changelog
> is as dead as it is now, then people will jump ship. Certainly, the effect
> on recent downloads shows a concern by the "masses."
It has been less than a week since the last update to the -current
Changelog. I'd hardly call it dead. Why worry about what other
distros are releasing? Unless you are running them, why does it
matter? I doubt Pat really cares what the 'masses' are doing.
> So we will watch and wait to see what happens. Howeverm the GP makes a
> valie point that Pat needs to change the organizational structure so that
> there is more to Slack than just him.
Pat needs to change? To suit you and GP? You are a bit arrogant
don't you think? Pat's method has worked more successfully than any
other distro's method, it is the oldest surviving distro after all.
> As you saw from my recent post, I have begun evaluating distros again
> after two years on Slack. I hate what I see, but they are all current and
> well maintained.
Then switch. None of us care.
Brad
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Bradley Reed
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:38:20 -0500, GP wrote:
>
> To me Slackware with swaret and all the tools that come from the community is
> just perfect. But it's just pure fantasy for anybody to pretend that providing
> a distro can be a one man operation, even if the man is The Man :)
>
It may seem like a fantasy to you, but it has worked for Slackware
for over 10 years.
What is it with you and swaret? You can't seem to make a posting with
extolling its virtues and singing the praises of Luc whats-his-name.
Is he your older brother or something?
Brad
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Peter
snip...
> Users, businesses, consultants, etc. are not what is seems to be
> important to Pat. Slackware is his hobby that he develops for his own
> enjoyment. If others enjoy it, great. If you don't like it, there are
> other distros or you can make your own. If he gets hit by a bus, we'll
> all mourn, but the code is GPLed.
Well, you miss the point then. Slackware is a business -- whether or not
profit is the motive. He sells it, therefore it's designed to generate
revenue. That's a business. Having the code GPL'ed does not help
businesses that depend on the distro.
>
> Who needs a stable and well supported distro? YOU. A lot of people just
> need a base to install and then customize to our own tastes. I am
> running a system based on Slackware-current, but I have ~800Mb of
> self-compiled Slackware packages of software not included with
> Slackware.
So what? If that's all you need -- even you don't need slackware.
> It has been less than a week since the last update to the -current
> Changelog. I'd hardly call it dead.
10.0 has no updates since October, security or otherwise. I do not use
current.
> Why worry about what other distros
> are releasing? Unless you are running them, why does it matter? I doubt
> Pat really cares what the 'masses' are doing.
Well, then this business model is doomed to failure. One should always
worry about consumer trends.
> Pat needs to change? To suit you and GP? You are a bit arrogant don't
> you think? Pat's method has worked more successfully than any other
> distro's method, it is the oldest surviving distro after all.
Not to suit me. To preserve his customer base. It may be the oldest, but
if he's gone, it will be history. Customers won't stay around a distro
managed by some loosely banded bunch of hackers. I'm not referring to you
-- obviously you are a well-informed programmer and linux enthusiast. You
could probably keep 10.0 current running for years to come without
trouble. But there are others who cannot maintain their own distro and
depend on the packager to do this. Not EVERY slack user is a "geek." Some
look forward to the next release because of new features in a kernel, or
other base programs they don't want to or don't know how to update
themselves.
>
> Then switch. None of us care.
Maybe you don't care, but I am not concerned with whether you do or not.
I will switch if Slackware does not move forward for whatever reason.
I came to Slackware from Mandrake two years ago because of the "rpm hell"
that many referred to. I did not know it was that at the time, though :).
I liked Slackware because it offered me, a user, an opportunity to install
the distro with as little or as much help as I needed. I also liked the
fact that I could manage my own installs or easily build applications as
I chose.
I enjoy the slack community, the help I get from this group, the packages
offered on linuxpackages.net. I choose not to use -current because when I
was using 9.0, I was heavily using -current but got myself very messed up
when I selectively upgraded packages. Ultimately, things broke because I
did not update all of a or ap or l at the same time. I had to wipe
everything when 9.1 came out, and other than a particular package or two I
know well, I stay away from -current. Just my choice, based on my
abilities and experience.
Don't mistake my comments as a slam on slackware. It's not. However, where
you and I disagree Brad is over whether or not Slack is a business. You
seem to think it's just a plaything, hobby for Pat. I disagree.
Regardless, if you will be happy if Slack stops tomorrow, and are content
to maintain your own branch of it, more power to you. I depend on others
to help me stay current since their expertise and ability exceed my own.
Regards
Olive Esseret
system assume all is installed via packages and assume you never install
or compile something yourself. Slackware is the only distribution I've
seen which consider as normal to install a software not via their system
package. I in the fact it is the distribution where compiling external
software is the more problem-free.
That's said; I can understand that people may want such system; but if
this is what they want; they can just use another distro like Debian. I
have just a question to these people who implore Pat to make an apt-get
system: why they use Slackware? Why try to copy Debian? If someone like
Debian; just use it!
In Distrowatch I see that Slackware have more than the third of users
than the leading Mandrake and about the half of Fedora. Giving the fact
that it is not a newbie distro (and the fact that there are many distro
available); I find this result pretty good.
Olive
Bradley Reed
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:28:12 -0500, Peter wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:42:37 +0000, Bradley Reed wrote:
>
> snip...
>> Users, businesses, consultants, etc. are not what is seems to be
>> important to Pat. Slackware is his hobby that he develops for his own
>> enjoyment. If others enjoy it, great. If you don't like it, there are
>> other distros or you can make your own. If he gets hit by a bus, we'll
>> all mourn, but the code is GPLed.
>
> Well, you miss the point then. Slackware is a business -- whether or not
> profit is the motive. He sells it, therefore it's designed to generate
> revenue. That's a business. Having the code GPL'ed does not help
> businesses that depend on the distro.
I think you miss my point. I really don't think the profit motive is
the main driving force behind Slackware. I'd argue if it were, he'd
do a lot of things differently. yes, he sells it, but I think the
revenue is just a bonus to him, he'd probably keep developing it if
no-one bought it.
Businesses that depend on GPL code can invest in programmers/sysads
to keep it working to meet their needs if the original maintainer
disappears for whatever reason. These companies don't get a
maintenance contract with Pat just because they install Slackware on
their machines. Pat is under no obligation to follow some 'business
model' that MBAs are touting as the 'proper way to run a business'.
>> Who needs a stable and well supported distro? YOU. A lot of people just
>> need a base to install and then customize to our own tastes. I am
>> running a system based on Slackware-current, but I have ~800Mb of
>> self-compiled Slackware packages of software not included with
>> Slackware.
>
> So what? If that's all you need -- even you don't need slackware.
>
True perhaps, but it is what I choose to run.
>> It has been less than a week since the last update to the -current
>> Changelog. I'd hardly call it dead.
>
> 10.0 has no updates since October, security or otherwise. I do not use
> current.
That is unfortunate, there probably should be a few security updates
there. But he did direct users to GUS for security updates when he
was away getting treated.
>> Why worry about what other distros
>> are releasing? Unless you are running them, why does it matter? I doubt
>> Pat really cares what the 'masses' are doing.
>
> Well, then this business model is doomed to failure. One should always
> worry about consumer trends.
As I said above, I doubt Pat cares. It has worked for 10+ years.
>> Pat needs to change? To suit you and GP? You are a bit arrogant don't
>> you think? Pat's method has worked more successfully than any other
>> distro's method, it is the oldest surviving distro after all.
>
> Not to suit me. To preserve his customer base. It may be the oldest, but
> if he's gone, it will be history. Customers won't stay around a distro
> managed by some loosely banded bunch of hackers.
You mean like Debian? :-)
> I'm not referring to you
> -- obviously you are a well-informed programmer and linux enthusiast. You
> could probably keep 10.0 current running for years to come without
> trouble. But there are others who cannot maintain their own distro and
> depend on the packager to do this. Not EVERY slack user is a "geek." Some
> look forward to the next release because of new features in a kernel, or
> other base programs they don't want to or don't know how to update
> themselves.
Most definitely, if there were no new packages coming from Pat,
eventually most users would migrate to other distros. But IMHO, the
true Slackware philosophy, encourages users to learn about their own
system, to learn how to maintain it, to learn how to keep it secure,
etc. Slackware really isn't designed for people that just want to
point-and-click thier way through kernel upgrades, or that are too lazy
to read the ChangeLog.
Updating packages on Slackware can be as easy as:
1. Download new tarball of package you want to upgrade. Untar it.
2. Read the README/INSTALL file for any tips.
3. ./configure (with any options you want, perhaps --prefix=/usr
- --sysconfdir=/etc)
4. make
4.5 As root removepkg 'the old version'
5. checkinstall (If you installed checkinstall from /extras)
There are better ways to make packages if you want to take the
effort, but this works 98% of the time.
I find it really hard to understand why so many people claim this
requires some extreme level of CLUE to do. It really isn't that
hard.
> I came to Slackware from Mandrake two years ago because of the "rpm hell"
> that many referred to. I did not know it was that at the time, though :).
> I liked Slackware because it offered me, a user, an opportunity to install
> the distro with as little or as much help as I needed. I also liked the
> fact that I could manage my own installs or easily build applications as
> I chose.
>
Similar here. The RPM dependancies were driving me batty. Especially
when I made the mistake of installing a few things from source, and
using --nodeps on others. Pretty soon I was using --force --nodeps
on everything because the rpm database really had no clue as to what
was really installed on my system. Arrgh!
> I enjoy the slack community, the help I get from this group,
I agree.
> the packages
> offered on linuxpackages.net.
I stopped using anything from there when I decided to keep current
with -current. It is easier to package things myself than download
unknown packages, try them, remove them because they rely on older
libs than are on my system. Or worse, they install things in places
where I would prefer they not be. It is a real pain to have both a
/usr/lib/pkgconfig and a /usr/local/lib/pkgconfig sometimes.
> I choose not to use -current because when I
> was using 9.0, I was heavily using -current but got myself very messed up
> when I selectively upgraded packages. Ultimately, things broke because I
> did not update all of a or ap or l at the same time. I had to wipe
> everything when 9.1 came out, and other than a particular package or two I
> know well, I stay away from -current. Just my choice, based on my
> abilities and experience.
Staying with current definitely means keeping the libraries the
- -current packages are built against updated as well. Unless you are
updating glibc or something though, it usually is easy to either
upgradepkg a few things from /l or removepkg/installpkg 'the old
version'.
> Don't mistake my comments as a slam on slackware. It's not.
Never read it that way.
> However, where
> you and I disagree Brad is over whether or not Slack is a business. You
> seem to think it's just a plaything, hobby for Pat. I disagree.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. :-)
> Regardless, if you will be happy if Slack stops tomorrow,
Most definitely wouldn't be.
> and are content
> to maintain your own branch of it, more power to you. I depend on others
> to help me stay current since their expertise and ability exceed my own.
Well, ideally we could help you learn more, so you could feel more
comfortable maintaining your systems. There are a lot of people
here, especially the BOZOS, who have a lot of linux/slackware
knowledge. It has been my experience that they are extremely helpful
when asked a clearly expressed question, which provides the needed
information. They are even more helpful when the questioner explains
what he has already tried to do to solve the problem. They seem to
be least likely to answer questions of the form. "My 'program not in
slackware' is broke. Help me."
Brad
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+Alan Hicks+
Hash: SHA1
In alt.os.linux.slackware, Al. C dared to utter,
> As for Distrowatch, it is a weathervane, but a weatherwane does not tell you
> what the weather is. Distrowatch only measures "hits".
Agreed. I hope you don't mind if I take this weather analogy and spread
it a little further. Distrowatch is a rain gauge (and as an old farmer
rain = good) and as such tells you what distros are getting the most
rain today (or this week, or some other short time). Slackware hasn't
had a new release since any of these other distros, so it's only
natural that these distros have a little more rain than Slackware right
now. What would be interesting is to compare other "big" distros to
Slackware during the big lul between 4.0 and 7.0 (back when BSDi cut
Patrick loose).
> The other day I clicked on Mepis to find out what it was all about (as I think
> this is where I would go if Slackware ends.) But I didn't download or install
> Mepis, and these would be far better stats to use as a measurement.
Measuring linux use is like counting the different color grains of sand
on a beach, frustrating, time consuming, and ultimately doomed to a
very inaccurate guesstimation.
> (I'd love
> to see some Linux organization or magazine or even Disrtowatch have an
> "International show us your distro day" where people are to go to the polls
> and click on a ballot for which distro they actually use. Not sure how you
> could keep it honest, but it would be interesting nonetheless.)
This is sorta what the Linux Counter does (http://counter.li.org) and
it's also grossly inaccurate. Take my entries for example.
http://counter.li.org/reports/place.php?place=US%3Aga%3ALizella
I'm in there twice because of trouble with my old e-mail address (from
a company I used to work for that's now tits up, I no longer have
control over that domain name). There's no way for me to delete the
duplicate entry. I do suppose I could e-mail the admin and he could do
it, but that seems like a lot of trouble, especially considering that
I'm likely not the only person like this. Now let's add even more
complexity to this. I've got multiple machines running Slackware. Am I
counted once, or multiple times? What about people that jointly own a
machine? What about machines that I build and put in place for clients
of mine? Who owns/registers those?
> Last week I had a long exchange with Pat. I implored him to "modernize" Slack
> with a 2.6 and (you will hate this) an apt-get like package management
> system. My point was that the biggest criticism that is ALWAYS leveled at
> Slack is it's lack of a tried and true dependency checking update system.
That's also one of things that's highly praised about Slackware.
> And
> it is the lack of an easy and mostly fool-proof update methodology that helps
> to keep Slackware from being one of the top 3 or 4 most popular flavors of
> Linux.
Pat gave me this bit of advice one time (summarized by me), help those
who come to Slackware looking for what it is and politely refer people
looking for something else somewhere else.
> Whether you like or don't like the Distrowatch stat-keeping method,
> you have to admit that you'd like it if Slackware was closer to the top. No,
> you won't say so in public because its not "Clue" but in your heart of hearts
> you know I'm right.
Well yeah, I suppose it would be cool to use the most popular
distribution, but it's not really that big a deal to me. I like
Slackware for what it is, use it for what it is, and accept that those
things that make Slackware Slackware are also that things that keep it
from being the number 1 most popular distribution. I'm content with that.
> I also implored Pat to do a better job in marketing Slackware, to make it more
> popular as well as to help raise revenue for its expansion (perhaps a paid
> staff to do updates, etc.)
I can imagine his response was negative to all the above (with the
possible exception of the 2.6 kernel, which Pat seems to like alot). As
for paid staff, I think Slackware would be better served by Clueful
volunteers that the community recognizes and respects (note respects
does not necessarily mean likes).
> Well, of course you know how he answered me. He said what you all have said
> for years and years (I've been here about 2 now). Pat does not care if Slack
> is popular and he's not interested in it as an income generating endeavor. As
> long as he makes enough money to live his lifestyle (which I think is
> probably very modest) he is a happy guy.
I think this says a lot about Patrick's maturity and wisdom.
> To Pat, Slackware is the journey, not, as it is to us, the destination.
Speak for yourself.
> He
> sent me the following saying that it sums up the 'philosophy of Slackware'.
> He said that Slackware was about making it "easy" for those willing to put in
> the effort.
> http://fringe.davesource.com/Fringe/Computers/Unix/UNIX_Literary_Style.html
What? What about http://www.lizella.net/slackware/philosphy.html ? :^)
The Slack philosophy isn't a thing that's easy to write down. Words
don't accurately summarize it. The Slackware experience is really lived
more than felt, and it's only by looking back on things that one can
truely appreciate the ride. I think that's true of a lot of things, not
just Slackware.
The Slack philosophy is something that everyone who's experienced it
knows, but not something everyone can accurately summarize. If we all
were to write down our ideas, I'm sure we'd all have differences, some
minor, some major, and yet we could all agree that we know what we mean
and understand that each other feels much the same way, even if we don't
articulate it the same.
> So if you are looking for a Slackware that you can compare with the others in
> the Distrowatch list, I don't think it will happen. Pat is crystal clear in
> his mind about what Slackware should be all about and just as I was unable to
> convince him (and I made a pretty good argument) I don't think anyone here
> will either.
Agreed.
>> It's getting late. If a minimal structure is not put in place right now,
>> Slackware will disappear.
>
> Well, I have to agree that there is the chance that it could drop to the
> levels of popularity of Deb stable. But there is a certain population (many
> of them here) who will never stop using Slackware, no matter how obsolete it
> gets. I'm not one of them and GP is not one of them, but they are here.
Don't count on Slackware becoming obsolete anytime in the near future.
> I think GP summed it up rather well. However, its not that Pat fails to
> comprehend that the world moves on, changes are made, new "things" happen,
> its just that he sees Slackware as evolutionary and not revolutionary.
Agreed, but evolutionary with a clear purpose and design. Slackware
doesn't rock the boat, doesn't race other distros, doesn't compare
itself to others as some measure of its worth. Slackware and Patrick
are beyond that. It matters nothing to them.
> I also think that before GP and anyone else is ready to play Taps over
> Slackware, that they let a bit of time pass. I understand that there are
> plans in the works, that Pat is going to make some changes, and that a
> protocol of continuance is being worked on.
Agreed.
> We're not going to get a "blessed by Pat" swaret or slapt-get. But that is in
> keeping with his philosophy and at the end of the day it is his distro, not
> yours, not mine, not ours.
Agreed. Well said throughout, Al.
- --
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
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John Culleton
>
> Not to suit me. To preserve his customer base. It may be the oldest, but
> if he's gone, it will be history. Customers won't stay around a distro
> managed by some loosely banded bunch of hackers. I'm not referring to you
> -- obviously you are a well-informed programmer and linux enthusiast. You
> could probably keep 10.0 current running for years to come without
> trouble. But there are others who cannot maintain their own distro and
> depend on the packager to do this. Not EVERY slack user is a "geek." Some
> look forward to the next release because of new features in a kernel, or
> other base programs they don't want to or don't know how to update
> themselves.
Just as a reminder: TeX was launched and proved error free by Donald Knuth
over two decades ago. At some point he withdrew from active participation
and the core program was frozen. TeX now continues with a formidable band
of typesetter/programmers as keepers of the flame. So it is entirely
possible for Slackware to continue and prosper.
The parallel is not exact I know. But it is possible for Slack to continue
without the active participation of its founder. It is equally possible for
it to deteriorate.
Consider that Linus Torvalds no longer does all the patches to his own
creation. In his words he "just sprinkles Penguin pee" on each new release.
The genius of open source software is that it is not tied to an individual
or an organization but can be carried on under the licenses. The layout
program InDesign has critical code copied over from TeX. Slackware will, I
think and hope, continue after all of us are no longer here to debate it.
--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters
GP
> I'm not referring to you
> -- obviously you are a well-informed programmer and linux enthusiast. You
> could probably keep 10.0 current running for years to come without
> trouble
This would be equivalent to maintaining a distro. That's what Patrick did from
the beginning... and it's time consuming. The reason why there are distros is
to share the work done.
Whether you can do something is not what matters, it's how much time you're
willing to put into it. (This remark is also valid for upgrades with or
without swaret.) Very few people have enough time and the plain desire to
maintain a distro just for themselves. They'd rather try to earn money, you
know, get some job, take care of their children, etc.
GP
GP
> Just to say, like others, that I would not like an apt-get system. These
> system assume all is installed via packages and assume you never install
> or compile something yourself. Slackware is the only distribution I've
> seen which consider as normal to install a software not via their system
> package. I in the fact it is the distribution where compiling external
> software is the more problem-free.
>
> That's said; I can understand that people may want such system; but if
> this is what they want; they can just use another distro like Debian. I
> have just a question to these people who implore Pat to make an apt-get
> system: why they use Slackware? Why try to copy Debian? If someone like
> Debian; just use it!
Utmostly stupid reasoning. It doesn't take a genious to install a tar.gz but
why the hell should every Slackware user go into the pain of doing this for
the same friggin' update?
If you're afraid of forgetting the ./configure, make, make install scheme
because you use swaret, write it on you monitor right before your eyes.
Shit!
GP
Peter
>
> The parallel is not exact I know. But it is possible for Slack to continue
> without the active participation of its founder. It is equally possible
> for it to deteriorate.
>
> Consider that Linus Torvalds no longer does all the patches to his own
> creation. In his words he "just sprinkles Penguin pee" on each new
> release. The genius of open source software is that it is not tied to an
> individual or an organization but can be carried on under the licenses.
> The layout program InDesign has critical code copied over from TeX.
> Slackware will, I think and hope, continue after all of us are no longer
> here to debate it.
TeX and the Kernel are just parts of a distro. While the kernel is huge,
all distros share it. What makes a distro a distro is the packaging,
tools, layout, component integration, support, upgrades, etc. IMO it's a
lot more than keeping one project alive. Slack is the integration of
thousands of projects. JM2C
reclusive monkey
> The Slack philosophy isn't a thing that's easy to write down.
Very true, but on reading this, if you subsitute "UNIX" with
"Slackware" in the following paragraph from link in the previous reply,
its a bit uncanny...
"Mastery of UNIX, like mastery of language, offers real freedom. The
price of freedom is always dear, but there's no substitute. Personally,
I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, pop-up-happy
dungeon like NT. I'm hoping that as IT folks become more seasoned and
less impressed by superficial convenience at the expense of real
freedom, they will yearn for the kind of freedom and responsibility
UNIX allows. When they do, UNIX will be there to fill the need."
I think its this kind of philosophy that will keep Slackware alive
forever, regardless of the personnel involved. An idea transcends
people and technology. I think there's a lot in the Church of the
Subgenius; I use Slackware because I have *faith* in it. I can give you
a hundred technical reasons why I use Slackware, but none of them come
anywhere near my gut feeling that its simply the right thing to do. I'm
going to sound like a completer nut here, and renforce the zealot
stereotype, but here goes anyone. You can look at the teachings of all
the major religious figures and find a simple loveing message at the
centre. Its exactly this message that is lost when it turns into
_organised_ religion. I look at most of the major distributions in the
same light; the message has been lost somewhere. Slackware seems to
stick to the central philosophies IMHO.
I'll throw in another quote here from Structure and Interpretation of
Computer Programs, 2nd ed., by Abelson, Sussman, and Sussman.
"Is it possible that software is not like anything else, that it is
meant to be discarded: that the whole point is to always see it as a
soap bubble?"
Alan J. Perlis
I believe software *is*unique, and will have a far greater impact on
our lives in the 21st century than anyone can envisage. I believe the
reason we have not yet had a technological revolution in the same way
that we have had an agricultural revolution and industrial revolution
is that software has not yet come to fruition. The industrial
revolution is still going on, and man is rapidly being replaced by
machines. When the technological revolution comes to fruition, then we
are going to see some very interesting things. To anyone who doubts the
future of Slackware, I say beware!
Disclaimer: my whacked out theories are purely for my own personal
amusement, and I'm not interested in arguing over points in my
opinions. They are purely that, take them as you like. Simply stated
here as I get a slap when I start talking like that down the pub.
Old Man
> For years, I've explained you can't run a distro this way
And for years, you've been wrong, and Slackware has continued. FOAD.
--
Old Man
Mark Mitchell
> The likes of Mepis, Ubuntu and even Damn Small Linux have now gotten ahead.
>
> It's getting late. If a minimal structure is not put in place right now,
> Slackware will disappear. Luc Cottyn, who's contribution to Slackware has
> never been recognized because of a feud where we now see he had every reason
> to be mad(1), has "disappered" and nobody raised a finger. After all, we
> "still had the code", didn't we? But not much development happened after he left.
>
only one choice.
Fork Slackware/Swaret.
Not that hard. The source is available. Come up with new name(s), put 'em
up on a web page, let distro watch know about it and build a community.
I'll be watching for it in comp.linux.annouce.
Mark
--
Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.
Mark Mitchell
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:02:48 +0000, Cichlidiot wrote:
>
>> GP <gil...@inverse.nretla.org> wrote: <snip trollish miscontrution of
>> developmental lull due to illness>
>>> It's now the final countdown on a most interesting project, the only one
>>> that's really true to the Linux spirit.
>>
>> Wee... another Slackware is dead post. Lesse... that gives us another
>> release or two at least by old Usenet lore right?
>>
> snip...
>> it's better to
>> let the person have the time off to recover at the short-term expense of
>> work rather than let the person work himself into a longer illness. I have
>> no doubt that once he's completely back on his feet, things will get back
>> to normal. In the meantime while he's in the quasi-state of uncertain
>> diagnosis and incomplete treatment, expect things to be sporadic.
>
> valie point that Pat needs to change the organizational structure so that
> there is more to Slack than just him.
>
with a single point of failure (in this case, PV).
However I disagree with your quote that "Pat needs to change the
organizational...". The point that many of you doomsayers is that "I would
be more comfortable if...." does not map to "Pat needs to...".
It's Pat's distro. He can do with it *whatever* he likes. If he chooses
to release 11.0 with *zero* development tools, default login is root, and
no user administration tools, he is perfectly free to do so. He would lose
virtually all of his user base, but it's *his* choice. Not yours, not
mine, his.
If you're uncomfortable with the current situation re: Slackware, I can
understand that. If you want to jump ship to another distro, I can
understand that too. If you have the skills and the willingness to jump in
and try to help a bit (like Alan Hicks and others), I applaud you. If you
want to come in aols and whine about how terrible everything is, 'I fart in
your general direction'....
Michael Black
It's not insignificant that Slackware is the longest running distribution.
It may not have the growth of the other ones, but it has staying power.
There have been quite a few distributions that have died, and some of
them have had big money behind them. Making something big may result
in failure, when staying small means it would have kept going. Mass
distribution requires money to set up, and many a company has expanded
to meet a temporary or imagined need, only to discover the market isn't there
and they go bankrupt because of the money spent on expansion.
Michael
GP
> It's Pat's distro. He can do with it *whatever* he likes.
Stupid. Plain stipid. Pat makes his living with Slackware. No users, no
revenue. Who'll pay the rent?
GP
Thomas Overgaard
Al. C. wrote :
>
> Last week I had a long exchange with Pat. I implored him to "modernize" Slack
> with a 2.6 and (you will hate this) an apt-get like package management
> system.
IMHO kernel 2.6.* is very still immature and if you want apt-get why
the fuck don't you switch to Debian?
Debian has had apt-get for years now and if you can figure out how it
works it seems to work excellent, especially for devoted Debian geeks.
> My point was that the biggest criticism that is ALWAYS leveled at
> Slack is it's lack of a tried and true dependency checking update
> system.
You mean Slackware lack the ordinary dependency hell that any other
distro has. There's dozens of dependency hell distros out there, why
should Slackware be just another dependency hell?
The day that Slackware becomes just another dependency hell its goodbye
to Slackware from me and I'm out of here.
> And it is the lack of an easy and mostly fool-proof update methodology
> that helps to keep Slackware from being one of the top 3 or 4 most
> popular flavors of Linux.
Maybe its the lack of a "Linux for dummies" update method that keeps
Slackware in the top 5. I simple cant be the only one who likes
Slackware because Slackware doesn't expect me to be a total computer
illiterate.
> Whether you like or don't like the Distrowatch stat-keeping method,
Actually distrowatch leaves me totally indifferent.
> you have to admit that you'd like it if Slackware was closer to the top.
No, I don't give a damn about distrowatch, but i like Slackware the way
it is.
> No, you won't say so in public because its not "Clue" but in your
> heart of hearts you know I'm right.
So you just wont accept any other opinion than yours: "Those who
disagree with me are lying"
>
> I also implored Pat to do a better job in marketing Slackware, to make it more
> popular as well as to help raise revenue for its expansion (perhaps a paid
> staff to do updates, etc.)
>
Its funny to see how you neoliberalists are upset with the way Patrick
runs his business. Is it the lack of "Get rich quick, and fuck the rest"
that is pissing you off.
>
> I think GP summed it up rather well.
The only thing GP does well is ranting and trolling.
> However, its not that Pat fails to comprehend that the world moves on,
> changes are made, new "things" happen, its just that he sees Slackware
> as evolutionary and not revolutionary.
And Amen to that brothers and sisters.
--
Thomas O.
This area is designed to become quite warm during normal operation.
+Alan Hicks+
Hash: SHA1
In alt.os.linux.slackware, Michael Black dared to utter,
> It's not insignificant that Slackware is the longest running distribution.
That old flame might not be stronger,
But it's been burnin' longer,
Than any spark I might have started,
In your eyes.
- Old Flame
Donny Lowery and Mac McAnally
as performed by Alabama
- --
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
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Bruno H Collovini
Hash: SHA1
Hi guys,
I go to little summarize and forgive for my bad English. ;)
Remember in 6 months, We go to be able to say that
"We knows the Slackware the 12 years!"
I know all well the problems that are to keep the Slackware. I am a
OLDBSD that I was vitiated by the first version of the SLS for Patrick ;)
And I can guarantee for all.... Patrick will keep a beautiful way for
Slackware to continue per next the 20 years.
Please, now they diminish these thread (and others not technical),
We needs ALL help for possible find bugs and errors into current.
But if you find some problem ( important error), please direct for
secu...@slackware.com, some average problem to averigar (or you
dont think is a serious problem) sends for slacksec (already we have
list of internal integration to argue some problems). And If you have
Suggestions, claims, great problems or
If you only feels in the nights in front your boxslack and wants one
"Hi"... okk send GUS (sup...@slackware.org.br) and I promise...
I will filtre for /dev/null. ;)
People in SlackSec, projects and many others are help of all form.
I really do not have as to list the name of all.
And I can say is that with all verifying bugs/problems etc we soon
Slack 10.1
Remember Slack not commercial-distrib, but I recomend buys the
official cd, to help expenditures for Patrick. :)
Thanks, attention of all.
Go SLACK! :^)
Bruno H Collovini - Buick Sk
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~kurt
>
> This was an interesting post and I think it had to be said... but I'm not sure
> GP said it very well. There is a tone of animosity that I distinctly hear and
> I can't help but think he has an agenda of his own.
GP is still upset because years back when he explained to Pat what needs to
be done to make Slackware a successful distro Pat explained that if he
needed any more shit from him he would drop by and squeeze his head.
Well, this is what GP claims he said. Google has the post in:
Message-ID: <3DBC48B2...@u.know.what.videotron.ca>
> As for Distrowatch, it is a weathervane, but a weatherwane does not tell you
> what the weather is. Distrowatch only measures "hits".
The linux counter project still lists Slackware as 4th.
> you won't say so in public because its not "Clue" but in your heart of hearts
That's $CLUE.
- Kurt
Two Ravens
> Stupid. Plain stipid. Pat makes his living with Slackware. No users,
> no revenue. Who'll pay the rent?
Does he? How do you know? I was under the impression that he also had an
alternative source of income.
--
Two ravens
"...hit the squirrel..."
Mark Mitchell
~kurt
Velvet Elvis
> So, what's left? Debian. With lots of discussion and a new release every
> third year.
FreeBSD
Velvet Elvis
> 10.0 has no updates since October, security or otherwise. I do not use
> current.
I don't get the relience on prefab packages, particularly with
checkinstall and slackbuild scripts out there. By the time my average
slack install is a year old, it's a Frankenstien system with only 2/3 of
packages installed being ones I made myself.
Any sys admin who can't fix security holes by rebuilding from source in
a pinch is asking for trouble.
Velvet Elvis
Isn't he married?
unixfool
I've never felt it needed any upgrade tool beyond what it already has.
If you're so focused on upgrade tools, use the 3rd-party tools
currently out there (swaret, slapt-get...). I see no need to go beyond
installpkg or rsync.
In fact, in /extra, there's slackpkg. I've tried it and its OK. I
still rely on rsync and installpkg though. I'll use slackpkg over
swaret or the other 3rd-party tools, as slackpkg was developed by a
Slackware developer, someone who should know the inner workings of
Slackware better than any outside element.
Lastly, its not like Slackware lacks upgrade tools. If you've ever
used Debian, it does have its problems concerning apt-get. Automated
upgrade tools are tools I don't trust, especially if you're maintaining
a critical server. If you're afraid to get your hands dirty, move on
to Mandrake or one of those damn hat distros.
In fact, Pat explicitly stated on IRC that he saw no need for automated
upgrade tools and pretty much raped swaret with his opinions. Looks
like you either need to develop your own upgrade tool or move to
another distro.
Bernd Illig
> (paranoid bullshit snipped)
GP?! Does that mean Gealto Pargarino!?
Slackware dead!?
Get a live in the killfile. You are one of the reasons that Patrick
Volkerding never will follow this newsgroup.
Bernd
Al. C
> n fact, Pat explicitly stated on IRC that he saw no need for automated
> upgrade tools and pretty much raped swaret with his opinions.
Does anyone know where there is a transcript of this (without having to slog
through two weeks of postings to the IRC)? I assume it was within the past
week? I heard that Pat had made another (his second) visit to ##slackware
this week but I don't know for sure and would like to read it if true.
ANC
turlututut
or BSD/Debian ?
Kai Brust
Franz M. Sauerzopf
> ...
> Shit!
>
On you!
--
Franz M. Sauerzopf
Atominstitut, TU Wien