Is "master" in Toastmaster sexist?
Bill DeYoung
Hi,
I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
being gender-neutral?
Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
power associations.
Bye for now,
Bill DeYoung
wdey...@julian.uwo.ca
London, Ontario, Canada
wadd...@airmail.net
> wdey...@julian.uwo.ca (Bill DeYoung) writes:
> Hi,
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
> sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
> being gender-neutral?
> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
> power associations.
>
Bill,
Throughout my life, I have taken great pride in mastering various tasks. I also
take great pride in being called a ToastMASTER. As this is our copyrighted
trade name, I would resent being called anything else!
The word "master" _is_ gender-neutral if used to mean one exceptionally gifted or
skilled in an art, craft, science, trade, etc.. I have a MASTERs degree in
physiology (obtained after my _bachelors_ degree in bio-agriculture!).
I immediately correct anyone addressing me as a Toastmistress as that is
an entirely different organization - and, yes, they are still around.
Brenda Waddoups
D-25 Governor (until midnight, June 30th, 1996)
anthony shipley
wdey...@julian.uwo.ca (Bill DeYoung) wrote:
>Hi,
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
>being gender-neutral?
> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
>power associations.
Oooh. I'm looking forward to this one :-)
I'm sure you'll get many arguments about the inclusiveness of ~masters.
FWIW, I would be quite happy to change the terminology to be more inclusive
by the use of words which can be offensive to many.
Now remember, no biting allowed. :-0
anthony shipley ctm
_________club assistant___________
the only way to schedule your meetings
http://www.solon.com/~astech/ca-home.html (usa)
http://www.iinet.net.au/~astech/ca-home.html (australia)
Rudolph A. Krutar
wadd...@airmail.net wrote:
>> wdey...@julian.uwo.ca (Bill DeYoung) writes:
>> Hi,
>> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>> sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
>> being gender-neutral?
>> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
>> power associations.
>>
>
>
>Throughout my life, I have taken great pride in mastering various tasks. I also
>take great pride in being called a ToastMASTER. As this is our copyrighted
>trade name, I would resent being called anything else!
>
>The word "master" _is_ gender-neutral if used to mean one exceptionally gifted or
>skilled in an art, craft, science, trade, etc.. I have a MASTERs degree in
>physiology (obtained after my _bachelors_ degree in bio-agriculture!).
>
>I immediately correct anyone addressing me as a Toastmistress as that is
>an entirely different organization - and, yes, they are still around.
>
>Brenda Waddoups
>D-25 Governor (until midnight, June 30th, 1996)
Trying to be overly precise has its own hazards.
One speaker broke us all up by referring to our
very competent TMoD as "Madam Toastmattress",
to his own utter embarrassment. That is not what
he had meant to say -- he was just tongue-tied.
R. Krutar, CTM
kc kornegay
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Bill DeYoung wrote:
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
> sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
> being gender-neutral?
the club used to be boys only. some clubs had a female auxiliary called
"toastmistresses." now, THAT i find offensive!
ValNolan
wdey...@julian.uwo.ca (Bill DeYoung) wrote:
>Hi,
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
>being gender-neutral?
> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
>power associations.
Well, I've always found it sexist. I don't much care for "Toastmistress"
either--although it calls to mind an image of myself trussed up in black
leather torturing a lightly browned slice of Wonder Bread, gleefully
counting nickels with each elicited "ah" of pain.
If the host is going to be the Toast Master, it seems only fair that the
timer become the Time Lord, and that raises the whole issue of Dr. Who's
membership--eight Doctors sharing the same dues? Thorny issue.
Valerie Nolan
Downtown Toastmasters #4350
Buffalo, NY
Michael Alexander
On Fri, 10 May 1996 22:34:57 GMT, Bill DeYoung wrote:
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
>being gender-neutral?
> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
>power associations.
Without criticizing you, I think your question is indicative of a mindset
which is distinctly unhealthy. I won't address the particular question,
because to do so would detract from my larger point.
I think it is deplorable how we, as a society, make an effort to take our
language and make it offensive by seeing things in it that aren't there.
We make an effort to offend ourselves. We suffer from a sort of
"linguistic paranoia" in which we take the innocuous and find offense in
it. And of course, once the paranoid has found offense, it cannot help but
get worse.
Michael Alexander (A.K.A. Rednaxela)
Web page: http://solutions.solon.com/~mal
jo...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: > sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
: > being gender-neutral?
: > Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
: > power associations.
Leads me to ask another question. How many even thought the name
Toastmasters is sexist until *you* brought it up? Through all the years
I've been a Toastmaster, and all the years I was aware of the
organization before that, the thought that the name might be sexist never
even crossed my mind.
Back when I first became aware of the organization, the fun jabs at
sexist language were concerned with questions like 'What should we rename
MANhole covers, MANuscripts, MANagers and so on. A suggestion of
changing MAN to PERSON brought the question about whether the SON in
PERSON was sexist. Where do we stop?
--
John Fleming, CTM email: jo...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, AB, T5J 3S2
- Only if you have been in the deepest valley can you
ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest
mountain.
R.M.Nixon 1913-1994
DTM Pat
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.96051...@wtcc-gw.wake.tec.nc.us>, kc
kornegay <kkor...@wtcc-gw.wake.tec.nc.us> writes:
> some clubs had a female auxiliary called
>"toastmistresses."
The Toastmistress Organization was not an auxiliary of ours, but separate.
It still exists but THEY DID change the name. I think it's International
Communication Something-or-Other. Sorry, guess I don't know the name now,
but I've met a few past members who told me the main difference is that
their evaluations are, or were, much kinder (read 'whitewash') and that
many members were in for years with very little improvement. They are no
longer a single gender organization, either. As to the "sexist" nature of
ToastMASTERS, it is just a bit masculine, but to what would you change it?
FYI The National Association of Parliamentarians spent kaboodles of time
(read months, not hours) debating the word "chairman" when referring to a
female. Chairwoman? Chairperson? Chairlady? The decision they came to
at the National Convention = Madam Chairman. Makes sense to me. Until we
create new words that are acceptable to the general public, there are few
good choices. Our language itself is the problem.
How many of you (women) take offense at being called "a good guy", or "one
of the guys". As a petite grandmother, I rather like it!
Pat Stewart DTM LGET
District 52 Toastmasters
(in Southern California, USA)
Mike Steineck
To clarify, the Toastmistress organization is now called ITC, for
International Training in Communications. I've not been to a club
but I've seen their brochures in the local library. It was almost
like reading the Toastmaster International brochure.
The dictionary definition for toastmaster is: "one who presides
at a banquet and introduces the after-dinner speaker." It's from
1749.
The definition for Toastmaster is: A member of Toastmasters
International, a public speaking educational club. No date given
There is a definition for toastmistress which is now obsolete:
a female toastmaster.
Note that toastmaster and Toastmaster are now non-gender references
for specific functions.
This debate over the exact "meaning" of the "master" in Toastmaster,
and "man" in chairman reminds me of the book "Helter Skelter" where
Charles Manson claims he is the Son of God because his name is
"Man Son." I am equally at ease with the terms chairman and chairperson,
but I grew up using chairman - and I will continue to do so.
Mike Steineck
Mike Steineck
DTM Pat (dtm...@aol.com) writes:
> In article
> <Pine.SOL.3.91.96051...@wtcc-gw.wake.tec.nc.us>, kc
> kornegay <kkor...@wtcc-gw.wake.tec.nc.us> writes:
>> some clubs had a female auxiliary called
>>"toastmistresses."
> The Toastmistress Organization was not an auxiliary of ours, but separate.
> It still exists but THEY DID change the name. I think it's International
> Communication Something-or-Other. Sorry, guess I don't know the name now,
The toastmistress club is now called ITC; here's what is on the 'net
about them. Notice any similarities to TI?
Welcome to the global world of
International Training in Communication
(click here to send a message to ITC International)
Do you need more self - confidence?
Would you like to learn to speak confidently before an audience?
Do you want to develop good leadership skills?
Would you like to learn how to manage meetings?
Do you want to upgrade your marketability within the work force?
We extend an invitation to come and see what ITC can do for you!
I.T.C. is a giant international organization for the
purpose of practicing
and training in the arts of communication and leadership. Since 1938,
members have been
meeting regularly helping each other develop poise and confidence. As
members we create and
deliver speeches, educations, debates, panel discussions, workshops. We
speak at our intimate
club meetings and in larger scheduled conferences and annual conventions.
We conduct business
meetings and learn the details and subtleties of parliamentary procedure.
Everyone learns to
participate in a supportive social environment among friends. We prepare
ourselves to carry our
communication responsibilities to the business, politics, life.
Since our founding, I.T.C. has grown as a premier training organization in
many languages
including English, Dutch, Japanese, Greek, Mexican, Icelandic all over the
world.
What is ITC?
ITC is a non - profit training organization specializing in public
speaking, communication
and leadership skills.
It is a world - wide organization with clubs in more than 23 areas of
the world.
ITC was first started in 1938 in San Francisco. Headquarters are
situated in Anaheim,
California.
ITC training focuses on the development of communication and
leadership skills through a
program of practice and constructive evaluation. Members support each
other in reaching
their goals.
Members from all walks of life join ITC for self-improvement and to
develop more
self-confidence.
Dues are low and include a detailed training manual.
Members can progress through the program at their own pace.
A five step Accreditation Program is followed for certification and
for easy goal - setting.
Our meetings
Our clubs are small groups, usually between 10 and 30 members. Meetings
are held in
community locations, restaurants, or business offices. Meetings can be
weekly, monthly,or
bi-weekly. They can be one hour breakfast or lunch meetings or 2 hour
meetings that are held in
the evenings. (Some countries have mostly lunch meetings and meet
weekly,many in the US are
dinner meetings and are held once a month.)
Member's participation is organized through a program. A member may be
asked to give a
formal speech or presentation, participate in a debate or panel
discussion, or speak "off the cuff"
on a surprise topic. New members are introduced to public speaking as
cautiously and gradually
as they wish. Experienced members guide the development of newer members.
I.T.C. is rich in
printed resources and learning materials developed over more than 50
years. The program also
includes a formal business meeting where members can practice
organizational skills by taking
club offices, and taking part in the proceedings conducted under strict
parliamentary procedure.
If you want to come to a meeting
Contact the members of a club in your community. Visitors are very welcome
to observe or jump
right in. If you wish to join you'll find the dues are reasonable. With
membership you receive the
I.T.C. Manual, a wonderful source of ideas and information, and a
subscription to the ITC
Communicator, our glossy international magazine.
Where in the World Is ITC?
ITC is one of the world's largest non-profit educational organizations.
You'll find
ITC members all over the globe...
Australia ,Germany, Malawi,Austria,Greece, Netherlands,Bahamas, Hong Kong, New
Zealand,Belgium, Iceland, Scotland, Canada, United States, Japan,
Thailand,Czech
Republic, Kowloon, Zimbabwe, England, Mexico, South Africa
For further information or to locate a club near you e-mail I.T.C. by
clicking: Message
to ITC .
Any TMs ever been to a ITC meeting? What was it like?
John/Heather Perkins
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>sexist. Have other names been suggested that would be perceived as
>being gender-neutral?
> Looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the meaning of words and
>power associations.
This issue has on occasion been raised by people in our club. However, if you
look up master in the dictionary some of the definitions given are "one who
uses, or controls at will, anything inanimate as to master one's fear of
public speaking"; "a tutor or preceptor"; "to become an adept in, as to master
speaking in public".
I think we have to be careful in allowing gender neutral language to control
our lives - at times it is taken to extremes. Too often we ignore the true
meaning of the word. I have seen an example where someone wanted the word
manual (as in manual labour) changed because it was sexist. However, this word
comes from the Latin word meaning hand and appropriately enough, the
definition of manual is "of or pertaining go the hand or hands".
Heather Perkins, DTM
_______________________
John Perkins and Associates
78 Brook Street
Fletcher's Lake, Nova Scotia
B2T 1A5
(902) 860-0523
anthony shipley
jo...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>Leads me to ask another question. How many even thought the name
>Toastmasters is sexist until *you* brought it up?
A good point. Is Bill DeYoung even a Toastmaster - I can't find any earlier
postings from him. While I would welcome such a discussion in this forum, I
think it should be amongst Toastmasters rather than for the unknown motive
of an outsider.
I actually think that our Toastmaster training should have prepared us well
to discuss such a controversial subject without unnecessary hystrionics (a
real word?).
So far the replies have been somewhat one-sided (although news is a bit
slow getting to me here on the edge of the milky way). If anybody is
hesitant about posting an argument for alternative naming of meeting roles
(or of the organisation), please don't be put off by the other postings -
no issue has only 1 side.
For anybody interested in a good consideration of the question of genderism
(my word) in language, I recommend:
"Changes in Default Words and Images, Engendered by Rising Consciousness"
and
"A Person Pape on Purity in Language"
respectively in the November 1982 and September 1983 issue of Scientific
American (by Douglas R. Hofstadter).
These can also be found in his book Metamagical Themas (penguin isbn
0-14-008534-3).
anthony shipley
more sig advice from the sig doctor
DaveF27
> I am wondering if members consider the name of the organization
>sexist.
something is a feather in anyones cap!
just my 2 cents.
David
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
David S. Freedman, ATM
President Patroon Toastmasters #3863; District 53
Past District Chief Judge; 1993-1995
Past Division Governor; 1993-94
Albany, NY
<dav...@aol.com> , <free...@crisny.org> or
<75673,13...@compuserve.com>
Life is an attitude, remember that the glass is half full.
"New experiences lead to new questions and new solutions!
Change forces us to experiment and adopt! That's how we
learn and grow! - Calvin & Hobbes
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
C. J. Taberski
In the organization I work, we refer to the Chair of a committee,
not Chairman, Chairperson, Chairmaster.... whatever. Chair
works very well.
Karen Allendoerfer
In article <4nb3eu$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DTM Pat <dtm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>FYI The National Association of Parliamentarians spent kaboodles of time
>(read months, not hours) debating the word "chairman" when referring to a
>female. Chairwoman? Chairperson? Chairlady? The decision they came to
>at the National Convention = Madam Chairman. Makes sense to me. Until we
>create new words that are acceptable to the general public, there are few
>good choices. Our language itself is the problem.
Well, I have actually never minded changes in language to make it less
sexist. Even if I get called a "chair." (Whenever this comes up, there's
always some wag who objects to being called a piece of furniture. But
what's the big deal? Haven't people ever heard of homonyms? Language
evolves, why not help it along if there's a good reason?) I suspect these
people who object have some underlying agenda. I've never heard a person
who was called a "studmuffin" object on the grounds that he didn't want to
be called a piece of breakfast pastry, or a person who was called a "fox"
object on the grounds that he didn't want to be called a small furry mammal.
But there are always these people who don't want to be called a piece of
furniture, when the question of sexist language comes up.
You also asked about how I feel about being called "a good guy" or "one of
the guys." At this point, "guy" is becoming pretty gender-neutral in
most contexts. I still remember this woman on the TV show "The Electric
Company" when I was a kid, who had a big megaphone into which she would
shout "HEY YOU GUYS!" She meant everybody. I don't mind being put in a
group with "you guys." There isn't really a female equivalent; "girl" just
doesn't do it.
Since this post is at least theoretically meant to be about Toastmasters,
I just thought I'd throw in my 2-cents about the name of the organization.
I like the name and it doesn't feel sexist to me. I also have a "fellowship"
that pays for my research. I am known as a "Helen Hay Whitney Fellow."
Occasionally I talk about there being a meeting for the "Whitney Fellows,"
to which I am going, and sometimes someone who wants to be funny will say,
"but you're not a fellow!" There are almost as many female Whitney
Fellows as male Whitney Fellows. It seems to me that having the same
name/description for the male and female members of a group contributes
to the notion that where that group is concerned, it doesn't matter whether
you're male or female, and everyone's equal. I like that quality in
Toastmasters.
Karen Allendoerfer
jo...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
anthony shipley (ast...@iinet.net.au) wrote:
: I actually think that our Toastmaster training should have prepared us well
: to discuss such a controversial subject without unnecessary hystrionics (a
: real word?).
I'm getting hysterical for suggesting something. For suggesting that
most people don't even stop to think about whether the name Toastmasters
is sexist unless someone brings it up.
In our world, it is so easy to create an issue just by turning over
enough stones. I've simply suggested that perhaps the question that
started off this whole thread fell in this category.
Furthermore, it is possible to take something like the sexism question
and take it to an extreme.
While we are at it, I can suggest a perfectly good reason to leave the
Toastmasters International name as it is. The name is one that is
recognized beyond the Toastmasters membership. It takes years to build
up that recognition.
To use a an example from this thread, there has been a lot of comment
about the organization known as Toastmistresses. When someone mentions
Toastmistresses, I immediately recognize the name. The same is not true
of its current name ITC.
I can make a similar argument for Sweet Adelines, a womens' singing group
that, I believe, now goes by the name Harmony International.
Jmonson
>The definition for Toastmaster is: A member of Toastmasters
>International, a public speaking educational club. No date given
>There is a definition for toastmistress which is now obsolete:
>a female toastmaster.
>Note that toastmaster and Toastmaster are now non-gender references
>for specific functions.
>This debate over the exact "meaning" of the "master" in Toastmaster,
>and "man" in chairman reminds me of the book "Helter Skelter" where
I always had thought that the word "Toastmaster" could be read to mean..
a "master" at making "Toasts" or "one who is proficient at toasting" Where
"master" is "someone who is proficient" or "someone who is very good at"
and "toast" or "toasting" being "after dinner speaking" as in "making a toast"
therefore by that explaination.. Toastmasters would be gender neutral. as the
"master" delineates a state of excellence rather than a gender label.
Jason
<tsb>
________________________ _______________________________
/ / Volly \ \
/ /~~~~~~~~ Hooked.on.the.net ~~~~~~~~~~~\ \
/ /~~~~~~ Look for me on IRC undernet #nz #Amigacafe ~~~~~~~~~\ \
/ /~ Real life: Pegasus Toastmasters, Christchurch West Rotoract ~\ \
/ / _______________________Team AMIGA________________________________ \ \
~~ ~~
<sb>
But wait, there is more..... with the sig you also get a tagline:
We Apologise For The Inconvenience.
anthony shipley
cx...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mike Steineck) wrote:
<snipdragon>
> I am equally at ease with the terms chairman and chairperson,
>but I grew up using chairman - and I will continue to do so.
Pushing the debate along a bit: Is there any reason for not using the terms
'Madam Chair' and 'Mister Chair' thereby circumventing all accusations of
sex/genderism.
I suspect that we will find almost all male Toastmasters happy with the
status quo. That says nothing. In general, most female (sic) Toastmasters
will also be happy. I suggest that it is likely to be younger females (and
males) - those on whom the future of the organisation will depend - who
will find the terminology offensive/staid/outdated.
The challenge for us older/existing Toastmasters is not to defend the
status quo but rather to question it. Certainly, it should be easy to
rename a few roles - the big question will be renaming the organisation
(I'm sure this very sentence is near blasphemy to many, sigh).
My point is to question whether the organisation is better served by
discarding the arbitrary baggage of past convention to encourage young
blood or by preserving tradition.
>Note that toastmaster and Toastmaster are now non-gender references
>for specific functions.
This is a bit like saying that, because apartheid is no longer the official
policy of South Africa (from where I emanate), the term 'kaffir' is no
longer offensive. And how many times did I hear people arguing that _that_
could not be taken as offensive for very similar reasons.
I'm putting this message to bed for the night. I wonder if it'll ever get
posted? :-)
anthony shipley
anthony shipley
jo...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>anthony shipley (ast...@iinet.net.au) wrote:
>
>: I actually think that our Toastmaster training should have prepared us well
>: to discuss such a controversial subject without unnecessary hystrionics (a
>: real word?).
>
>I'm getting hysterical for suggesting something. For suggesting that
>most people don't even stop to think about whether the name Toastmasters
>is sexist unless someone brings it up.
Oops, my apologies. My posting wasn't directly in response you yours (and I
posted it under yours in error). I _definitely_ did not intend that yours,
or any of the others I have seen, was anything other than moderate.
My only intention was to suggest that we could discuss the topic without
hysterics. The placement was an unfortunate mistake.
<snip>
>To use a an example from this thread, there has been a lot of comment
>about the organization known as Toastmistresses. When someone mentions
>Toastmistresses, I immediately recognize the name. The same is not true
>of its current name ITC.
Quite so. In this sense Toastmasters is far preferable to any collection of
letters.
Whatever the outcome of a discussion of the language issue, the question of
an alternative name poses many difficulties but I do not believe that those
difficulties constitute sufficient grounds to not discuss the gender
question.
Once again, sorry for the mistake.
anthony shipley
?sdrawkcab, gis ym tpecxe ,gnihtyreve si yhW
Mal Lawrence
anthony shipley wrote:
- the big question will be renaming the organisation
I think alot of terms we use in Toastmasters could be changed.
"Table Topics" does'nt really describe what that exercise is all about. To a newcomer,
it does'nt bring to mind extemporaneous speaking at all. You mention table topics to
them and they don't know what you are talking about.
The term "Evaluation" does'nt bring to mind the uplifting aspects that they are
supposed to provide.
Mal Lawrence
Peanut1111
As a women, I do like to be called a chairperson. I enjoyed being called
chairman. I never consider this sexist nor do I consider the use of
"Master" sexist? I believe we should leave it the names the way they are.
They are too many changes in our language as it is.
Peanut1111
Cindy Carter, DTM
D48 and D66
D48- 1996 Div. Gov. of the Year
Robert Steel
>>anthony shipley (ast...@iinet.net.au) wrote:
>>
>... Toastmasters is far preferable to any collection of
>letters.
>
Likewise, I don't have a problem with the name Toastmasters for this
organisation. It is a well respected name whose reputation has been built
up over the past 72 years,
Perhaps we should look at our logo and the fact that Australia and New
Zealand (the country of my birth) do not appear, despite there being
around 10,000 members from these two countries.
Let's put 'International' into the Toastmasters International Logo.
Robert Steel ATM
Area Governor N11
District 73, Melbourne, Australia.
Justin Brown
>I think alot of terms we use in Toastmasters could be changed.
>"Table Topics" does'nt really describe what that exercise is all about. To
>a newcomer, it does'nt bring to mind extemporaneous speaking at all. You
>mention table topics to them and they don't know what you are talking
>about.
I'd agree. The terms in toastmasters should communicate exactly or as
closely as possible what they descibe. This procedure should be obvious
since the primary aim of Toastmasters is to bring about clear and lucid
commuication. There should be a universal reaccessment and if any TM terms
do not adequately communicate what they describe then they should be
replaced or reformed. In addition all words in TM should all be put through
a gender clearance test and if any terms fail this test they should be
altered so as to come in line with genderless norms.
JUSTIN BROWN
VPPR Rhodes Toastmasters (District 74)
Grahamstown, South Africa
C. J. Taberski
Is "Justin" gender specific?
Michael Alexander
>I think alot of terms we use in Toastmasters could be changed.
>
>"Table Topics" does'nt really describe what that exercise is all about. To a newcomer,
>it does'nt bring to mind extemporaneous speaking at all. You mention table topics to
>them and they don't know what you are talking about.
>
>supposed to provide.
And "meeting" only suggests that people become aquainted with one another,
not that they do business.
"Speech" is only auditory and does not suggest gestures.
"Officers" suggest offices, and rooms are not what they're about.
Merciful Heavens! Can we ever stop? :-)
Lswjr
Dear Fellow Brother and Sister Toastmasters?
Where will the so-called "political correctness" stop?
IMHO, "political correctness" was started in order to correct past wrongs
against
anyone who was non-white Anglo-Saxon Protestant and the
mentally/physically
disabled. To that extent, it was done with good intentions.
However, at the hands of extremists, it has become a tool for imposing the
beliefs of one group on society as a whole. Hopefully, all Toastmasters, a
group drawing from all races, genders, and various cultures, will not
begin to
judge one another and let "political correctness" tear Ralph Smedley's
work
to shreds.
My point is that "Toastmasters" is a fine name and, as an organization,
has
done a very good job in encompassing people from all walks of life. As a
democratic organization, we should be able to question our elected leaders
(Club officers through International Directors, VP's, and Int'l President)
to
insure that they are truly working to keep the highest quality of
educational
programming alive for ourselves and our posterity.
IOW, don't tear our organization apart on "non-issues" such as our name.
The politicians in the US already do a good job on "smokescreening" us
as it is. Don't let it happen in Toastmasters!
Thank you for allowing me to put in my $0.02. Happy Toastmastering!
Steve Williams, DTM :)
President
Stone Mtn TM (4144-14)
Atlanta, Georgia USA
ClarkBrown
Interesting use of terms. TT is not extemporaneous ... it is impromptu
... but that is another story
Karen Allendoerfer
In article <4od1u5$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Lswjr <ls...@aol.com> wrote:
>Dear Fellow Brother and Sister Toastmasters?
>
>Where will the so-called "political correctness" stop?
It will stop when people stop whining about "political correctness," and
stop calling those who bring up the topic of sexist language "extremists."
I didn't see anyone who was discussing the topic of the name of the
"Toastmasters" organization bring up "political correctness" until now.
Please, let's leave "political correctness" out of it, and talk about
the topic. If the topic on this thread doesn't interest you, you can
always delete it and move on.
Karen
Steve Driscoll
In article <4ofdt3$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ClarkBrown (clark...@aol.com) wrote:
: Interesting use of terms. TT is not extemporaneous ... it is impromptu
: ... but that is another story
Interesting! I always thought these two terms were synonyms. In fact, so does
my dictionary. Would you mind explaining the difference?
- Steve Driscoll
big...@usa1.com
Michael Alexander
My dictionary also calls then synonyms. However, I recall that
"extemporanious" means "without preparation" whereas "impromptu" means
suggests some informal prior thought, but that the speech has not been
formally written and rehearsed. However, this distinction would be the
reverse of the one Clark is suggesting.
Clark, when you find the formal distinction could you provide us with the
name of the dictionary you are using so that we can peg this whole thing
down? And thanks for adding to our understanding of the fine distinctions
in language.
ClarkBrown
According to Drs. John F. Skinner, PhD and George L. Grice, PhD, in their
textbook Mastering
Public Speaking, here are the definitions:
... speaking extemporaneously. OR FROM NOTES (my caps). Your speech is
well researched
and your materials are well organized and your have adequately practiced
the speech. Note: this
is the most commonly used technique in TM - followed by either the
Manuscript or the
Memorized speech. There is much research and preparation required for an
Extemporaneous
speech.
...impromptu speech, one with limited or no advanced preparation... You
have not had time to
think about the ideas you want to use. You begin speaking without knowing
the exact words you
will use. YOU HAVE NOT PRACTICED DELIVERING YOUR SPEECH.
IMHO, there is a difference. Of course, I believe it was Mark Twain who
said the best impromptu
speech takes about 6 weeks to prepare (with apologies to Mr. Twain).
Ken Skaggs
I had to settle this for myself, but I'm under no delusions that I've
settled it for anyone else :-)
My dictionary says:
extemporaneous, adj. 1. spoken or done without preparation, offhand.
impromptu, adv. without previous thought or preparation, offhand:
- a speech made impromptu. -- adj.
Hmm, no help there. However, the editors saw fit to add this explanation:
"extemporaneous. In general usage, an 'extemporaneous speech' is
one made without any preparation, usually on the spur of the moment. In
the terminology of speech teachers, however, such a speech is called an
'impromptu speech,' and an 'extemporaneous speech' is one which is
carefully prepared , though usuallly not written out and never committed
to memory. It may be given with or without notes."
ClarkBrown (clark...@aol.com) wrote:
: According to Drs. John F. Skinner, PhD and George L. Grice, PhD, in their
--
Ken Skaggs
ksk...@pinn.net