Is Toastmasters really considered a cult?
webhead
be a cult. I get really annoyed by this because, to me, cults bring
negative thoughts to my mind. Yes, our clubs are supportive groups
that try to help others become their best. We also try to spread the
word about Toastmasters to others in hopes that they may join a club
someday.
I don't see it as a "religion." If I had known that Toastmasters was a
cult ten years ago, I would not have joined. I just wanted to survey
your thoughts on this one. I've been really angry since I've heard
these references.
Jeff
Eric Matto
speech a few years ago where the speaker used the idea of Toastmasters as a
cult to great effect. The most memorable line from his speech was about them
having to pry the C&L manual "from his cold dead hands". The speech was very
funny, and moreso because it was delivered to an audience of Toastmasters.
For sure one can exaggerate the cult-like aspects of Toastmasters, but one
can do the same for other activities that people have a passion for. I would
think that people who are actually in cults don't realize it; if some
Toastmasters consider themselves to be part of a cult then it is most likely
in jest.
--
Eric Matto, DTM, PDG
Imm. Past President, Mississauga Valley TM Club #8277-60
VP Education, Voice of Experience Advanced TM Club #583400-60
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
"webhead" <jeffre...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1130720816....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
webhead
for something, we can almost pursue it in a "cult" like manner by
attending conferences and other events. I like Toastmasters and
believe that it is a powerful means of improving oneself, but I can't
say it is my main passion in life.
Jeff
Gene Wirchenko
>I have heard this connection as well, most memorably in a humorous contest
>speech a few years ago where the speaker used the idea of Toastmasters as a
>cult to great effect. The most memorable line from his speech was about them
>having to pry the C&L manual "from his cold dead hands". The speech was very
Actually, TI just revises the C&L manual, and that makes the
prying rather easy.
>funny, and moreso because it was delivered to an audience of Toastmasters.
In-jokes and all that. It is like a, oh, never mind.
>For sure one can exaggerate the cult-like aspects of Toastmasters, but one
>can do the same for other activities that people have a passion for. I would
It is fun to do it when pestered. Turning the tables is a very
effective tactic against a self-appointed opponent who does not think
as quickly on his feet as an experienced Toastmaster in all
[my|your|his|her] glory. Comparison to rutting bulls may be
appropriate.
>think that people who are actually in cults don't realize it; if some
>Toastmasters consider themselves to be part of a cult then it is most likely
>in jest.
Quickly! Hide the speech "rules".
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko, ATM-S, CL
Member, Bellingham Evening Toastmasters (4470-2)
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Yoj
news:1130720816....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I've never thought of it as a cult, nor have I heard anyone else suggest
that. I have been known to refer to it as a support group, but that's
diffferent. Isn't it?
Joy
Jayne Barron
and practices '
Is TM a cult?
"webhead" <jeffre...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1130720816....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Perew
> Definition of Cult - 'adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs
> and practices '
>
> Is TM a cult?
There are members who adhere to certain made-up beliefs with a religious
like ferver. Those members certainly bring a cult-like air to some
activities. Fortunately, most members are not like that.
--
Mark Perew <pe...@squeep.com>
To the world you may be just one person,
but to one person you may be the world. (Source Unknown)
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>I've never thought of it as a cult, nor have I heard anyone else suggest
>that. I have been known to refer to it as a support group, but that's
>diffferent. Isn't it?
What a lead-in! Was there a bit much stress on those last two
words?
Then, I got nicer/nastier (choose one only) as I thought it would
make a good table topics question.
Yoj
news:03qem1lcb5s85gjmr...@4ax.com...
> "Yoj" <joyga...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >I've never thought of it as a cult, nor have I heard anyone else suggest
> >that. I have been known to refer to it as a support group, but that's
> >diffferent. Isn't it?
>
> What a lead-in! Was there a bit much stress on those last two
> words?
>
> Then, I got nicer/nastier (choose one only) as I thought it would
> make a good table topics question.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko, ATM-S, CL
> Member, Bellingham Evening Toastmasters (4470-2)
I should have added a smiley after my question. ;-) Yes, it would make a
good Table Topics question. In fact, it should be possible to get at least
two or three TT questions from this discussion.
Joy
Anthony Shipley
> Then, I got nicer/nastier (choose one only) as I thought it would
>make a good table topics question.
O.K. I'll bite!!
This is a good opportunity to seriously consider the question!
By way of intro, let me suggest that while there may be a few cult TMI clubs,
it's more likely that most TMI cultists live in normal clubs and are either put
up with (I don't like the "with" but can't think of anything better at the
moment; mea culpa!) or glorified by the other members.
--
2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2.
m...@me.com
summer,
the reporter noted an unusual prevalence of Scientologists. He was
twigged to this by one fellow who said "Being a Toastmaster has given
me the confidence to upgrade my education. I recently received a
Master's degree in Cybernetics".
My take is, Toastmaster's not a cult, yet some members do act in a
somewhat cult-like fashion (not in our club though IMHO).
Ian
On 30 Oct 2005 17:06:56 -0800, "webhead" <jeffre...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
Yoj
Scientologists. I know of another made up of atheists. Toastmasters
include a wide variety of ages, occupations, educational backgrounds,
political and religions beliefs, or lack thereof.
--
Joy
**Don't believe everything you think**
<m...@me.com> wrote in message
news:ca5om1lcdenkqau0o...@4ax.com...
James R. Watson
> Scientologists. I know of another made up of atheists. Toastmasters
> include a wide variety of ages, occupations, educational backgrounds,
> political and religions beliefs, or lack thereof.
>
> --
> Joy
That seems to go against the rules against discrimination...
NONDISCRIMINATION: This corporation shall not discriminate, in the conduct
of its programs and activities, against any person on the basis of age
(except those persons under 18 years of age), race, color, creed, gender,
national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation, or physical or mental
disability, so long as the individual, through his or her own effort, is
able to participate in the program or activity.
By prohibiting discrimination on the basis of creed, it would seem that you
can't include/exclude people based on religious belief or lack thereof.
The Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination based on "race,
national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation,
marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon
has been granted." We've had questions about our Singles club, but you can
see that Toastmasters allows discrimination based on marital status when
that's usually a no-no.
There's opportunity for discrimination based on closed clubs where the
parent organization limits its members in ways not normally permitted by the
by-laws. For example, we have a club that is open only to students or
alumni of a particular training program. The training program is open to
women only. You will only find women in that club, but that's because the
training program is restricted. There is nothing directly in the club
by-laws about gender.
--- James R. Watson, ATM-S/CL, Ottawa, Canada
http://www.toastmastersdistrict61.org/
Yoj
news:cM-dnX29prH...@rogers.com...
I haven't seen the by-laws of the clubs I mentioned, so I don't know how
they get around the rules. I do think that the content of speeches might be
such that people who didn't share their beliefs would be uncomfortable in
the clubs.
Joy
John Fleming, DTM
scriptorium, "James R. Watson" <id...@rogers.com> wrote:
> $> I know of one Toastmasters club that is made up exclusively of
> $> Scientologists. I know of another made up of atheists. Toastmasters
> $> include a wide variety of ages, occupations, educational backgrounds,
> $> political and religions beliefs, or lack thereof.
> $
> $That seems to go against the rules against discrimination...
[snip]
> $There's opportunity for discrimination based on closed clubs where the
> $parent organization limits its members in ways not normally permitted by the
> $by-laws. For example, we have a club that is open only to students or
> $alumni of a particular training program. The training program is open to
> $women only. You will only find women in that club, but that's because the
> $training program is restricted. There is nothing directly in the club
> $by-laws about gender.
I know of a club up here that uses a similar mechanism to restrict
membership to people age 50+. To be a member, you have to belong to the
sponsoring organization, and to join the sponsoring organization you
have to be at least 50 years old.
Otherwise, a club cannot, as you point out, prevent someone from joining
the club as long as the person is at least 18 and can actively
participate in the program.
That said, a Toastmasters club can have a lot of control over who joins
the club because the club is free to decide what groups it will focus
its membership building efforts on.
Hence, a Christian Toastmasters club could ensure the majority of its
membership are of the Christian faith by marketing itself through
churches and advertising in publications more likely to be read by
Christians.
In a similar manner, a club could have a membership composed almost
exclusiely of university or college students by advertising exclusively
on the university or college campus and running membership ads in
student newspapers.
Thes clubs couldn't prevent someone from outside these groups from
joining if that someone expressed interest--as long as the person is at
least 18, can participate in the program, can pay the dues, and doesn't
give the club an obvious and defensible (before a human rights tribunal)
reason for the club not wanting to vote the member in.
The two clubs mentioned by Joy probably used a similar mechanism to
build their memberships. A club for Scientologists focusing its
membership building activities within the Scientology community, for
example.
--
John Fleming, DTM
Edmonton, Canada
Attitude Boosters Toastmasters (7022-42) - Member
Chamber Toastmasters (5594 - 42) - Immediate Past President
A scientist can discover a new star but he
cannot make one. He would have to ask an
engineer to do it for him.
- Gordon L. Glegg
p c
and bylaws if the club membership is restricted to members of the
Scientologists organization.
Even if a club is not a close club, the club membership will be of a
certain group if the club targets for membership a certain group. In
theory, any eligible person should be able to join.
..PC
radical...@gmail.com
I think both statements are true. I will begin by making a distinction between denotation and connotation. Denotation is the exact dictionary definition of a word. Connotation is the emotional values and prejudices evoked by the same word. As an atheist, I don't believe in God. There is no empirical proof of the existence or nonexistence of God. Approximately 80% of the people in the world believe in God. Human beings are social animals. A few people are able to live as hermits, but the great majority of humans do not thrive or even survive if we do not interact with other humans.
Here's a respected dictionary's definition of "cult."
"a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous
"a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much
"a small group of very devoted supporters or fans"
People who agree to believe in something or do something are a club or group or religion or association. If they agree to meet in a building and call it a church and pray to a being I don't believe in, that's perhaps a little irritating to me, but generally I don't mind. If they begin to do something that strikes me as harmful, such as not letting an ill child get medical care or harming people who don't pray as they do, they are getting into dangerous territory for most of us in this culture.
Putting aside the religious aspect for a moment I will mention a non religious topic such as fire safety. If you work for a fire department (and encounter adults and children harmed and killed by fires), you and your fellow fire department workers will speak and act strongly in favor of fire prevention. You might be accused of being a "cult" if you speak and act strongly enough to irritate people, but you are not out of touch with reality. Are you members of a "cult?" I think not.
I belong to a local Toastmasters group. A long time in the past I've had a lot of experience with public speaking; in fact I taught it in high school for a while. Some people like it; some people benefit from skill in it; some people hate it. I participate in Toastmasters now because I have experience (and a little skill at it); I am getting too old to do some of the activities which I used to do, and some activities people around me enjoy, I find tiresome. My Toastmasters group has a certain kind of enthusiasm for the activity I find a little forced and irritating. They harm no one as far as I can see.
I've had experiences with more cult-like groups. Some of my relatives belonged to Anthropacifists (think Waldorf Schools and biodynamic gardening); I regard the organization as a mild cult and have no affection for it, but it does no great harm I can see.
My wife and I ended up in battle with a fairly large (though not well known) "New Age" organization called Cerro Gordo (in Southern Oregon) I regarded as a cult that had stolen close to a million dollars over a twenty year period from peaceful and very naive adherents. We "destroyed them" in court. I think they fit the word "cult" to me. They were out of touch with reality. They did harm.
Toastmasters does not (as far as I can see) steal or harm or trick people. People can join or leave as they please. It's like playing football or baseball or bridge or chess. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't, don't do it.
katie...@gmail.com
apra...@gmail.com
ja...@lamb-family.net
At my current job, I attended an open house yesterday and walked away with the "best table talk" ribbon. I think I'm going to "join" - but it did feel a little what I would have described as "cultish"... very specific rules and requirements and roles, very organized, very structured. Of course, as some have mentioned, that's probably an unfair label - I can leave any time I want (by not continuing to attend meetings, by not continuing to pay dues, by leaving this employer, etc., etc., etc.)
Someone not used to such a regimented, structured environment might be overwhelmed or put off by all of the little quirks like the handshakes and the "uh counter" but I can see a lot of positive benefit to it and I think I'm going to join our local club.
(I would venture this is how those affinity-specific clubs avoid being considered discriminatory - they're a benefit or offering of a larger organization - maybe our club is open to the public, but you'd have to learn when the meetings were and get past building security. And so it's not so much discriminatory or exclusive as much as it is a shared base which probably has some benefits of its own as long as it doesn't succumb to groupthink.)
jdun...@gmail.com
Like I said though some individuals, but they are cult like in other areas and often belong to some kind of church organization. Not making any comment on people who attend church. Toastmasters like groups do seem to attract this sort of person.
You do have need to be somewhat devoted, some more fanatical. It is no more of a cult than say Crossfit which is not a cult. Again some groups and individuals are more fanatical than others. It does take some level of devotion and commitment.
1. A cult isolates itself mainly 2. Requires devotion to, idolization and blind allegiance to some person, figure or shared ideology. If those things are not present, it is not a cult. Cults often include some other factors to really be considered a cult but those are the red flags and they both need to be present. Other groups/organizations might share some other characteristics, but that does not make them a cult.
It really does no justice to confuse the issue of what a cult is. Actually ruins credibility of legitimately positive groups. Second is a cult is not necessarily a harmful thing.
raas...@gmail.com
eugenio....@gmail.com
My first impression and the reason I never came back is because it felt like a cult.