Credit for delivering same speech
Darren Gilchrist
thoughts.
Our District is dealing with an interesting scenario. I do not know the full
details, however the basic issue is whether a person should be entitled to
get credit for completing the same speech over and over? No details were
given to me of the person - everything is being handled very well from a
confidentiality perspective.
I have been told that a person has completed over 80 speeches (hence 8 CCs!)
this year alone, and it has been indicated they are repeating a fair number
of speeches to accomplish this.
While presenting a speech again potentially means the speaker may improve
(in confidence, and in speaking skill), it poses the ethical/moral question;
does the incremental benefit justify another "speech completed" towards a CC
(or other) manual, or does the thought, preparation, and practice of
developing another speech mean it doesn't?
I'm desperately trying to see the other side/justification for it - but
cannot at the moment. I guesss it comes down to the motivation of the person
doing it this way?
We can't repeat Advanced Communication manuals (at least to apply for
another AC award) until completing all of others - so we need to exercise
the broad skills provided by the other manuals, rather than focussing on the
ones we might like or be good at.
Others comments?
Are there any rules around this?
Regards...
Darren
--
Darren Gilchrist AC-S, CL
2007 - 2008 Area 37 Governor
Mob 0412 906 704
Home Club: Cumberland Forest Toastmasters (4009/A37/W/D70)
Webpage: http://au.geocities.com/cumberlandforest/
District 70 Webpage: http://www.d70toastmasters.org
RICHARD MJR HAYS
can he/she continue doing the same old speech, even with a thesaurus or
other dictionary book, and not extract similar words/phrases/sentences?
Whether it's Toastmasters or any other format/venue, PLAGIARISM is never a
good idea. The practice can only last so long until that person is found
out and reprimanded. That's my take. I await a response from other
posters/postings.
--
Rick Hays (Richard M. Hays, Jr. and 'Rick from Mt. Washington')
1-412-512-9564 cell phone
1-412-481-0728 landline
ha...@verizon.net home email
http://www.fpcp.org/ First Presbyterian Church Pittsburgh where I sing
tenor in Adult Choir
http://edgewood.freetoasthost.com/ Edgewood Toastmasters on web
http://www.d13tm.com/ District 13 Toastmasters online
http://www.metro-cities.com/ Metro Cities Communications Internet Radio and
TV world class broadcasting
"Sometimes I do wake up in the mornings and feel like I've just had the most
incredible dream. I dreamt my life." Sir Richard Branson
"We may affirm absolutely that nothing great in the world has been
accomplished without passion." Georg Hegel
"Darren Gilchrist" <Darren.G...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:47d453b4$0$19234$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Librarygurl
do something similar. For example, when preparing for speech
contests, going through the various levels of contests, and Area and
Division Governors who do meeting visits for examples. Still, there
is a limit in how many times they repeat a speech and it is typical
that the speech does change either due to audience or feedback. I
have never heard of someone giving the same speech 80 times and
earning 8 CCs. Has this been over the course of this year alone?
I do get suspicious about people who earn that many awards in one
year. I have heard many stories of people who do this. Isn't there a
rule in place that you can only earn another CC award every 6 months?
Is that per club?
I suspect there are people in the organization who do this or
something similar. There are people in my own district I suspect are
guilty of rushing through their DTMs because they still stink as
speakers, but have 4 or 5 DTMs earned. I feel like these people only
see the award as the goal rather than improving their speaking
skills. Yes, this should be discussed and investigated. There should
be other questions like why the VP Ed and other members of their clubs
(because there must be more than one) have allowed them to do this.
Even if this person is a member of 8 clubs, these people must have
heard the same speech at least 4 or 5 times. Who is submitting these
awards? I am sure that the District is investigating it, but it has
to do with this being allowed by others. I am sure this person has
not inspired other people to do the same.
Personally, if I heard the same speech over and over without any
growth I would be suspicious of the persons motivation for being a
member. I would talk to the VP Eds about keeping track of members
speeches and encouraging growth and development as a speaker over
earning awards. There may be something bigger here than just one
member giving the same speech 80 times.
Sara
On Mar 9, 5:15 pm, "Darren Gilchrist" <Darren.Gilchr...@iinet.net.au>
wrote:
Joy
with, how can repeating it be plagiarism? If this were true, than anyone
who moves to another level of a contest with the same speech would be guilty
of plagiarism.
--
Joy
My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open.
"RICHARD MJR HAYS" <ha...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Df0Bj.589$yD3.253@trnddc05...
Darren Gilchrist
Sorry - I should have explained a bit better. The person has potentially 10
speeches in their pocket. Delivers speech #1 "Icebreaker" at one club, gets
credit. Repeats speech #1 "Icebreaker" at another club and gets credit and
so on for up to 8 clubs! (therefore speech #1 is only repeated 8 times)
Then does the same for speech #2 "Organise your Speech" (repeats up to 8
times), speech #3 "Get to the point" (repeats up to 8 times) etc etc.
However, not to say that this is always done of course. Unique speeches
might be created and presented.
--
Darren Gilchrist ATM-B, CL
2007 - 2008 Area 37 Governor
Mob 0412 906 704
Home Club: Cumberland Forest Toastmasters (4009/A37/W/D70)
Webpage: http://au.geocities.com/cumberlandforest/
District 70 Webpage: http://www.d70toastmasters.org
"Librarygurl" <libra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ac93984-1136-4716...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Rod Taylor
news:47d453b4$0$19234$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> thoughts.
>
> Our District is dealing with an interesting scenario. I do not know the
> full details, however the basic issue is whether a person should be
> entitled to get credit for completing the same speech over and over? No
> details were given to me of the person - everything is being handled very
> well from a confidentiality perspective.
>
> I have been told that a person has completed over 80 speeches (hence 8
> CCs!) this year alone, and it has been indicated they are repeating a fair
> number of speeches to accomplish this.
>
> While presenting a speech again potentially means the speaker may improve
> (in confidence, and in speaking skill), it poses the ethical/moral
> question; does the incremental benefit justify another "speech completed"
> towards a CC (or other) manual, or does the thought, preparation, and
> practice of developing another speech mean it doesn't?
>
> I'm desperately trying to see the other side/justification for it - but
> cannot at the moment. I guesss it comes down to the motivation of the
> person doing it this way?
>
> We can't repeat Advanced Communication manuals (at least to apply for
> another AC award) until completing all of others - so we need to exercise
> the broad skills provided by the other manuals, rather than focussing on
> the ones we might like or be good at.
>
> Others comments?
Difficult one, Darren. I'm surprised that s/he hasn't bored everyone in the
Area/Division to tears. For me, if I expected to hear the same speech
delivered by the same speaker time and again, I'd avoid attending meetings
at which s/he was speaking. The same would be true (for me) if a speaker was
so overexposed that they would be presenting a speech every second week. If
others felt the same, it could affect membership.
I have no idea how many clubs this individual belongs to, or how many
speaking opportunities are available. With 37 weeks of the year gone, it's
two speeches per week. I've known members to do more than this in short
bursts to complete awards, but have never known it to be sustained over so
long a period. Over 20 years since I started keeping a database, I have
averaged 20 Toastmasters speeches per year (nearly all different speeches),
and the most I've ever done in a full calendar year is 45. The thought of
almost tripling this speaking load boggles my mind, even if only a few
different speeches are involved.
I'm guessing that our International Speech Contest speakers, at the higher
levels, take their contest speech to as many clubs as possible to get
feedback. Fundamentally, they are presenting the same speech each time, with
minor variations depending on that feedback. I don't know how many times
such speeches get presented prior to the World Championships, but I would
expect it to be a large number.
Having said that, Individuals use Toastmasters for different purposes. Some
want to improve their skills, some to chase awards, some as a social outlet,
some to impress others, and some to try to break records. It's often
difficult to understand motivations different from our own. If the members
of this individual's clubs are happy, and feel that they have adequate
opportunities to present speeches of their own when they wish, why should
anyone want to be a spoiler? It would seem that the VPEs of each of the
clubs involved are happy with the situation. Clearly this member has a
particular objective and is working to achieve it. I'm the first to agree
that, from my perspective, the learning that is taking place may not be
great, but that's the individual's choice.
Somewhere there's a limit on the number of CCs that a club can claim towards
their DCP from one individual in any one year, but I don't think there's a
limit to the number of CCs that an individual can get credit for in a year,
so long as the achievements are signed off by the VPEs concerned.
I can understand that others might be concerned by this unusual performance
but, for me, the important question is who, if anyone, is being hurt? If
they are, and have taken no action, why not? Each club is a democracy and
the (majority of) members decide what is acceptable. The VPE, who schedules
speakers, must abide by the members' wishes. If the behaviour of the member
concerned is destructive to one or more of the clubs concerned, we have
mechanisms to control this or, as a last resort, vote the member out.
--
Rod Taylor (rodt iafrica - don't forget the @ and the dotcom)
Transformers Toastmasters Club
District 74, Southern Africa
Rod Taylor
news:0ac93984-1136-4716...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> guilty of rushing through their DTMs because they still stink as
> speakers, but have 4 or 5 DTMs earned. I feel like these people only
> see the award as the goal rather than improving their speaking
> skills.
Yes. I've seen many examples of this. One of the difficulties is that such
people believe that, because of their DTMs, thay are good speakers.
Rod Taylor
> Thanks Sara! More comments very welcome.
>
> Sorry - I should have explained a bit better. The person has potentially
> 10 speeches in their pocket. Delivers speech #1 "Icebreaker" at one club,
> gets credit. Repeats speech #1 "Icebreaker" at another club and gets
> credit and so on for up to 8 clubs! (therefore speech #1 is only repeated
> 8 times)
>
> Then does the same for speech #2 "Organise your Speech" (repeats up to 8
> times), speech #3 "Get to the point" (repeats up to 8 times) etc etc.
>
> However, not to say that this is always done of course. Unique speeches
> might be created and presented.
Seems to me it's just chasing brownie points, or CCs. There's nothing in the
rules to prevent it, so why does District want to interfere? Apart from
gaining CCs, I don't see the point because, in my view, the speaker isn't
learning much, but that's really irrelevant in the view of the speaker
concerned. The audiences at the eight clubs may learn something from the
speeches and evaluations if they are 'new' to each club and I would hope
that, by the eighth time and from at least the speaker's perspective, each
project will be polished to near perfection. From my perspective, belonging
to eight clubs is a bit over the top but, again, if that's what the speaker
wants, so be it.
As far as getting more than one CC is concerned, what's the point in terms
of awards? Do two, three, or more CCs indicate that you are a better speaker
than someone with only one? I'll agree that my knowledge and skill increased
on my second cycle throught the CTM (CC), but now (one project away from my
eighth) I doubt I learn much new - and that's with new speeches each time.
Joy, who has many more CCs than me may, or may not, agree with this. Sara
points out that there are a number of speakers with multiple DTMs who are
poor speakers, and the same is true in this District. Continued practice is
always a benefit and earning awards for your club is a big turn on for some.
My choice is to continue to repeat CCs and the advanced manuals. I'm two
speeches away from having completed each of the advanced manuals at least
twice, but this has no meaning to anyone else.
I doubt there are many who would want to join eight (or more, or fewer)
clubs to achieve the same thing and so, for me, it's of no great concern.
Rick
There are times its valid to repeat a speech. Contests and Area
Governor giving the same speech to several clubs have already been
mentioned.
I have repeated speeches to different clubs that I had given years
before. After that amount of time, they were different speeches. The
speeches were chosen because the speeches in those clubs were similar.
I had picked them because they were humorous or technical. That made
them very different that the other speeches in the clubs. I didn't get
credit for the advanced manual speeches because I'd already one that
manual. The basic manual speeches I probably did, but both the speech
and feedback I got was very different.
There shouldn't be a rule about repeating speeches. Most people don't
repeat speeches. Most of the repeated speeches have a valid reason.
How would we regulate it? How similar does a speech have to be before
it's a repeat?
Rick Clements, DTM
Daylighters VPM
John Goalby
Out of morbid curiosity, I decided to look at the stats.
There is one person listed on the TI site that has 7 CC's currently.
They
are a member of at least 7 clubs. The next closest is around 4 CC's.
This person has 26 awards for the year so far, 7 of them CL's.
Interestingly, I saw another person with 5 CL's for the SAME club!!!
They have 14 total awards for that very same club. I am not sure how
often this club would have to meet to make that possible. By my
quick reckoning, they have credit for 44 speeches (CC, ACB, ACS,
ACG, BCS, BSPS). More than once a week it seems :-)
I realize that you can earn these awards in the years prior to this
one and record them now. They are not all recorded on the same
day.
I thought I was an over-achiever. I am heading towards 6 awards
this year. 31 people have already beat that with another 29 on
that number already!
John.
Joy
news:12051436...@svr04.isisp.net...
I do learn things occasionally, but I admit that, at this stage, I'm
coasting. I'm retired. I'm 72 years old. I've decided I can do what I
want. I enjoy giving speeches, but want to pick my own subjects. I find
the advanced manuals restricting and have completed those that interest me.
I repeat the basic manual because it gives me more freedom, and I can give
credit for the CCs to one of my clubs. If TI were to come out with a rule
that limited the number of CCs you could get, I'd continue giving speeches,
but waive the credit.
Joy
Joy
news:ybcBj.5033$y83.414@trndny06...
I agree. It should be up to the individual. That said, repeating the same
speech 8 times or more sounds like overkill. OTOH, I have sometimes
repeated speeches at different clubs because I like the speech and want to
give it to a new audience. There is also the fact that each evaluator has
his or her own opinion, and I have picked up suggestions by doing this that
I wouldn't have received otherwise.
Joy
John Fleming, DTM
in the scriptorium "Joy" <toa...@real-me.net> wrote:
> $Is it possible to plagiarize yourself? If the speech was original to begin
> $with, how can repeating it be plagiarism? If this were true, than anyone
> $who moves to another level of a contest with the same speech would be guilty
> $of plagiarism.
Correct Joy.
Plagarism is taking someone else's work, and presenting it
as your own. Taking your own work, and presenting it as
your own, isn't exactly the same thing.
--
John Fleming, DTM
Edmonton, Canada
Attitude Boosters Toastmasters (7022-42) - Member
Chamber Toastmasters (5594 - 42) - Member
A scientist can discover a new star but he
cannot make one. He would have to ask an
engineer to do it for him.
- Gordon L. Glegg
John Fleming, DTM
in the scriptorium "Darren Gilchrist"
<Darren.G...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> $Hi everyone - I thought I'd pose this question to the group for your
> $thoughts.
> $
> $Our District is dealing with an interesting scenario. I do not know the full
> $details, however the basic issue is whether a person should be entitled to
> $get credit for completing the same speech over and over? No details were
> $given to me of the person - everything is being handled very well from a
> $confidentiality perspective.
> $
> $I have been told that a person has completed over 80 speeches (hence 8 CCs!)
> $this year alone, and it has been indicated they are repeating a fair number
> $of speeches to accomplish this.
> $
> $While presenting a speech again potentially means the speaker may improve
> $(in confidence, and in speaking skill), it poses the ethical/moral question;
> $does the incremental benefit justify another "speech completed" towards a CC
> $(or other) manual, or does the thought, preparation, and practice of
> $developing another speech mean it doesn't?
> $
> $I'm desperately trying to see the other side/justification for it - but
> $cannot at the moment. I guesss it comes down to the motivation of the person
> $doing it this way?
> $
> $We can't repeat Advanced Communication manuals (at least to apply for
> $another AC award) until completing all of others - so we need to exercise
> $the broad skills provided by the other manuals, rather than focussing on the
> $ones we might like or be good at.
> $
> $Others comments?
I've seen it done to a significantly more limited extent by
advanced speakers who give the speech for credit for the CC
manual, and use essentially the same talk for an advanced
manual project (or part of an advanced manual project). The
differences between the two presentations is essentially a
modification to adapt the speech to the different manual
projects. Over the years even I've done this, though well
over 95% of my manual projects are new talks.
There's nothing in the "rules" to prevent this, and what you
describe is what I've seen done on a limited basis to a
logical extreme.
That said, I would argue the speaker is probably denying
themselves some enormous growth opportunities, both as a
speaker and as a person.
I find that some of the fun with doing a new speech is what
I learn, not just as a speaker, but also as a person. Doing
the research to flesh out a topic means I expand my own
knowledge of topics I'm interested in. And, to borrow an
idea I heard from a keynote speaker once, you really should
count on replacing the key stories in your speeches in not
more than three years--it helps keep your stuff fresh.
> $Are there any rules around this?
> $
> $Regards...
> $Darren
John Fleming, DTM
in the scriptorium "Joy" <toa...@real-me.net> wrote:
> $"Rick" <Rick.Cl...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> $news:ybcBj.5033$y83.414@trndny06...
> $> There shouldn't be a rule about repeating speeches. Most people don't
> $> repeat speeches. Most of the repeated speeches have a valid reason. How
> $> would we regulate it? How similar does a speech have to be before it's a
> $> repeat?
> $
> $I agree. It should be up to the individual. That said, repeating the same
> $speech 8 times or more sounds like overkill. OTOH, I have sometimes
> $repeated speeches at different clubs because I like the speech and want to
> $give it to a new audience. There is also the fact that each evaluator has
> $his or her own opinion, and I have picked up suggestions by doing this that
> $I wouldn't have received otherwise.
I agree. One of the speeches I developed most with I
presented at three different clubs *and* used it as a speech
contest entry.
But I only used it for manual credit once. :)
John Fleming, DTM
the scriptorium "RICHARD MJR HAYS" <ha...@verizon.net>
wrote:
> $I'm not sure of exact rules, but wouldn't PLAGIARISM be an issue here?
No. It's only plagarism if the speaker has taken something
written by someone else and presented it as his or her own
ideas.
Rod Taylor
>
> There shouldn't be a rule about repeating speeches. Most people don't
> repeat speeches. Most of the repeated speeches have a valid reason. How
> would we regulate it? How similar does a speech have to be before it's a
> repeat?
For the Regional/DNAR and International Speech Contest, speeches must be
entirely new and different from the one used at District level. There are
five qualifying judges assessing this and it requires a majority decision to
disqualify a contestant.
p c
> Thanks Sara! More comments very welcome.
>
> Sorry - I should have explained a bit better. The person has potentially 10
> speeches in their pocket. Delivers speech #1 "Icebreaker" at one club, gets
> credit. Repeats speech #1 "Icebreaker" at another club and gets credit and
> so on for up to 8 clubs! (therefore speech #1 is only repeated 8 times)
>
> Then does the same for speech #2 "Organise your Speech" (repeats up to 8
> times), speech #3 "Get to the point" (repeats up to 8 times) etc etc.
>
> However, not to say that this is always done of course. Unique speeches
> might be created and presented.
>
I think it's ok in theory per the TI rules because the person is not
repeating the same speech for credit for the "same CC manual" such as
for speech #1, then # 2, and so on. But using them to repeat the CC
manual, although I see no personal benefit if using the same speeches to
repeat the CC manual so many times.
Rick
> For the Regional/DNAR and International Speech Contest, speeches must be
> entirely new and different from the one used at District level. There are
> five qualifying judges assessing this and it requires a majority decision to
> disqualify a contestant.
That is only for the contest. There the speeches only have to be
different for the District & Regional speech. I heard a speech that was
going to be used at Regional I think, one of his examples was also used
in an earlier humorous contest speech. It was used for different effect
and it was only part of the speech. It was the same event though.
Rick Clements, DTM
VPM Daylighters