A Walk Through The Xbox 360 Evaluation Lab [3DO, WebTV, IBM, ATI joined up to make Xbox 360]
Highlander
Tuesday, August 16, 2005
A Walk Through The Xbox 360 Evaluation Lab At Microsoft's Mountain View,
Calif. Campus
Dean Takahashi, 12:01 AM in Dean Takahashi, Gaming
(This story is a companion to a shorter piece we're putting in the
newspaper)
Leslie Leland was kind enough to walk me through the product evaluation and
reliability labs for the Xbox 360 at Microsoft's Mountain View, Calif.,
campus earlier this month. She's one of the hardware engineers who makes
sure that the box will work when it arrives under Christmas trees this fall.
On the tour, I got to see some working prototypes, as well as many with
their guts torn out. Behind doors with coded keypads, Microsoft is literally
baking some of these machines to see if they can live up to tough quality
standards before they begin shipping this fall. Here and there, engineers
say that they're the first to begin playing next-generation games.
If you don't know the history of the Xbox, Mountain View is worth
explaining. Microsoft acquired its position in the heart of Silicon Valley
when it bought WebTV Networks for $425 million in 1997. That was a very
expensive boondoggle.
But there were a cluster of video game veterans from 3DO within WebTV. Folks
like Tim Bucher, Dave Riola, and Nick Baker.
They stayed on and tried to pitch Redmond on a WebTV-like video game
console. They lost out to the team from Redmond that proposed the Xbox, and
had to content themselves in 2001 with designing UltimateTV, a digital video
recorder that didn't resonate that well with consumers. The Xbox went on to
sell more than 20 million units, and much of the WebTV team was absorbed
into the Xbox division.
Some departed, but the remaining team at Mountain View soldiered on, and in
many ways, WebTV has gotten its revenge by playing a major role with Xbox
360. "You could say we came in as the relief pitchers," said Leland.
Leland, who used to work at Apple, is a hardware engineer who has been with
Microsoft since the acquisition of Web TV. She's part of the hardware group
that has developed considerable expertise in video technology and helped
contribute to the system design.
She has to make sure that the consoles coming off the production lines work
properly. We sat in her office for a while and talked about old projects,
like the "QT" project aimed at cutting costs out of the original Xbox.
She showed me some old motherboards. Every year, the guts of the Xbox were
ripped out and replaced with cheaper, more efficient components. But
consumers never noticed because the outside of the box stayed the same.
Leland slaved away on motherboard redesigns known as "Xblade," "Barcelona"
and "Tuscany," but no one ever heard about them.
As Microsoft began the Xbox 360 project in late 2002, it started putting
together a worldwide team. (It's interesting to note that Sony announced the
Cell project with IBM and Toshiba, before Microsoft's planning began, and it
won't ship until after Microsoft ships).
J Allard, corporate vice president of the Xbox platform, convened a small
team in Redmond to work on the product concept. During 2003, the team
figured out that it wanted to launch before Sony this time, which meant that
the box had to be ready in the fall of 2005.
After scouring a number of vendors, it hired IBM, which put more than 400
chip designers to work at several of its sites to design the microprocessor
for the Xbox 360. ATI Technologies signed on in August, 2003, to create the
graphics chip. Allard said that IBM had been ahead in terms of thinking
about multiple processing cores on a single chip. ATI, which put 300 people
to work on its chip, had a clever idea to couple the graphics chip with its
own dedicated memory. It was not a derivative of a PC graphics chip, said
Rick Bergman, an ATI executive.
Todd Holmdahl, the corporate vice president in charge of the hardware,
decided to exploit a manufacturing scheme that had been executed by Nintendo
with the GameCube. Instead of having the chip makers make and sell chips to
Microsoft, he just got them to perform the chip designs.
Both IBM and ATI agreed to let Microsoft own the designs so that it could
control the cost reduction schedule and get the chips made in any factory.
This is dubbed "customer-owned tooling," which literally means that the
system maker, in this case Microsoft, owns the rights to the "mask set," or
the part of the tools that define the design in silicon.
Under this scenario, Microsoft pays an engineering fee that is lucrative for
both ATI and IBM, but it doesn't have to pay high margins to ATI or IBM for
making the chips, and it can go directly to a chip contract manufacturer.
The goal is to cut costs and to control its destiny. After all, Microsoft
remembers it lost $125 on each of the first Xbox machines sold, and it got
into a dispute with Nvidia over chip pricing to boot.
As the silicon vendors started working on the inside, others paid attention
to the outside of the box. A lot of newcomers joined in to define the
console, which of course had to be smaller than the version that the
Japanese rejected. Microsoft invited a bunch of industrial designers to
create "gestures" for the console's look.
It narrowed down the choices to a couple of firms. Astro Studios in San
Francisco and Hers Experimental Design Laboratory teamed up to create the
industrial design under the direction of Jonathan Hayes, design director at
Microsoft. They went back and forth on the look of the box, coming up with
sketches over and over again until a concave style emerged as the winner.
Flextronics lent its support on how to design in components that could be
manufactured easily.
"Flextronics knows the inside out really well," Leland said. "The mark of
success is that the outsiders push the insiders to do their best and visa
versa."
Larry Yang, another former WebTV engineer, led a group of 100 engineers on
various Xbox chip projects at Mountain View. Yang worked at Sun Microsystems
for a decade, helping to architect its Sparc microprocessors. He tripled the
size of the team beyond its WebTV roots, adding considerable firepower from
other hardware and chip companies in Silicon Valley. The team included chip
architects, designers, verification experts, physical layout experts,
operations people, supply chain managers and logistics planners.
Robbie Bach, the chief Xbox officer, even came down for a visit once to make
sure all the WebTV folks stayed aboard and helped with the 360. He knew that
they had a lot of options in the valley. One of the chips they designed was
a TV encoder that would support the TV-side of the system.
Altogether, they were a part of a team of 1,000 working for hardware chief
and corporate vice president Todd Holmdahl. If you count the people at the
three big factories of Flextronics, Wistron and Celestica, there are more
than 10,000 people at work making sure that the Xbox 360 arrives on time in
November.
When Leland signed on to help, she thought, "Holy shit! We just finished the
first one. We gotta cost reduce it. And then make the new one."
On the older Xbox, Leland had to help deal with issues like cable problems
in Australia, the huge controller that was so big the Japanese didn't like
it, disk-scratching problems that also turned off Japanese customers. (She
explained to me why my own Xbox was starting to go on the fritz, failing to
recognize some of the newfangled DVDs that have a lot more features on them
than the old ones.)
The Xbox 360 project has run a lot more smoothly than the last one.
Simulation technology has advanced and helped make sure that the hardware
would work right out of the gate. That's where a lot of the big bugs were
found, even before anything was etched in hardware, Leland said. Last time
around, Nvidia ran late on the graphics chip, Flextronics had start-up
problems in the factory, and Microsoft had to postpone its launches in Japan
and Europe. That gave Sony an insurmountable lead.
But this time, the critical hardware is done. IBM "taped out," or finished
its chip design, on Dec. 8, 2004. ATI finished its graphics chip in
November.
Within 48 hours, IBM's chip was running rudimentary game code. Yang's team
also finished its own design of a TV encoder chip on time. Silicon
Integrated Systems did the support chips, also on time. All told, there are
more than 400 million transistors on the chips in the box and a kilometer of
wiring in the top three chips. Now all of these teams still have to make
sure that they debug their working prototypes, but everything is looking
good.
This is why Microsoft has been able to ship several thousands software
development kits with prototype hardware to game developers. Sony recently
said that it had only delivered around 450 kits to developers for the
PlayStation 3, which debuts as early as next spring. Microsoft's prototypes
don't seem to be running at full speed, but Microsoft says the final chips
are on schedule.
We walked around the lab to a guy who was roasting his Xbox 360. He was
testing the processor by heating it up to 70 degrees Celsius.
"We've gotten to a zero bug count," Leland said. "We have thousands of bugs
in the database." Leland said that the Xbox 360 hardware will be made with
lead-free solder, a big deal because of environmental concerns. In Europe,
all electronics have to meet lead-free requirements by July, 2006. Leland's
team had to make sure that the hardware complied with the regulations.
For the 360, Leland ran a production evaluation team in Mountain View,
looking at testing the Xbox 360 hardware, running reliability tests, and
running manufacturing tests too. Her people had to make sure that the box
complies with Federal Communications Commission regulations on wireless
emissions.
So one of her people spends a lot of time zapping electrical pulses into
tortured prototypes. She has had to travel to China, where the factories
are, to help set up testing labs, including a room where people just play
Xbox 360 games like "Perfect Dark Zero" all day long. (Flextronics and
Wistron are existing partners from the first iteration of Xbox, while the
relationship between Celestica and Microsoft is newly formed. All three
plants are located in the Pearl River Delta region in Southern China.)
Leland is constantly on the phone or sending instant messages to people all
over the world. "It's what we call high tide," Leland said. "We're just
getting over it. Our high tide started a year ago."
She walked by a table with a bunch of wiring and some more decapitated Xbox
360s and said they test them to see if they can withstand surges that come
from lightening strikes. There is something called an "ESD gun" on the
table. I think to myself, if lightening strikes my house, I don't think I
will keep playing my game. She also said they have to test for dealing with
voltage changes and brown-outs.
A guy named Rich Lee showed me a gigantic chamber where he can simulate all
sorts of environmental conditions. There is room for 120 Xbox 360s on the
racks in this room, which can be heated or cooled as needed. I step in and
feel the warm air blast me. The Xbox 360s stay in the pressure cooker for up
to 72 hours at a time. There are about 1,100 components on the motherboard.
A lot of stuff can go wrong.
But Leland says that the teams are already at work on the plans for year two
and year three. "To get the Christmas, we have to ramp production. We do a
summer hand-off to the factories, and on to distribution and retail."
We leave the test labs and end up eating a sandwich in the back lobby.
Leland is obviously having the time of her life. "Everywhere we go, when
people here we are working on the Xbox 360, we get mobbed. It's very
emotional."
I finished by talking to Yang and Holmdahl on the phone. It's clear they
want to get millions of consoles out before Sony ships its first one. To
make that happen, they have to be paranoid about getting the whole supply
chain synchronized. The grand scheme all assumes that Microsoft will have
the games that gamers want to play.
"It all comes down to supply," he said. "All it takes is a shortage of one
part to limit your supply."
AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~
technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
/me stands up and gets herself together
Whew!
~Melodie~ Aka AnonomissX
<Highlander> wrote in message news:buedneEwlbO...@comcast.com...
==Javelin==>x
In Group: alt.online-service.webtv ....On Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2005,
12:14pm .... Highlander (<Highlander>)_Posted_This_Article:
>A Walk Through The Xbox 360 Evaluation
>Lab [3DO, WebTV, IBM, ATI joined up to
>make Xbox 360]
...The hidden moral of the Article/Story (re-copied in full below) IS;
-- That if you wish to survive in the Cyber_World, you then, just like
Life itself, MUST *Evolve*, *Adapt*, and *Morph/Change*, if you wish to
continue on with your Cyber-Existence!! .....And WebTV has shown itself
to be *EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those things (ever *Evolving",
*Adapting*, *Morphing*, & *Changing*) so as to survive, and continue
on!!
....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!! ;-O!!
....YOU GO WEBTV!!!! ;-O!!
[BEGIN Re-Copied Article/Story In Full]:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2005/08/a_walk_through_.html
Tuesday, August 16, 2005
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.......[/END Re-Copied Article/Story, Comments, & Post]
--
(===Javelin===>x)
Jav...@webtv.net
Bikini Whacks
> Me wants an XBox 360
> technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
>
> /me stands up and gets herself together
>
> Whew!
> ~Melodie~ Aka AnonomissX
>
--
If you feel you can't go on,
Call Someone Now
http://tinyurl.com/8duvg
Paul Ding
Sheesh, Melodie, you oughta give some warning. Some of the guys in here
were hoping to get a piece before you did that....
--
Utilities: http://paulding.net
Hosting: http://pdhomes.net
Forum: http://observerco.com/smf
Larry Harmon in 2008.
If we're to have a bozo
in the White House,
let's do it right!
jack
<snip OT crap>
Cross-posting troll. Clueless, clueless idiot....PLONK!
chrisv
That's all this "highlander" idiot does, is massively cross-post this
kind of stuff, with an occasional name-change to avoid kill-filters.
carl0s
"AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~" <anono...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:UNqMe.22198$Ji4.9153@fed1read03...
> Me wants an XBox 360
> technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
>
isn't it funny how lust is an anagram of slut!
I'm not trying to be rude or insulting btw, it's just that I skimmed your
post and thought I read "technoslut" :)
AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~
~Melodie Aka AnonomissX
"carl0s" <ca...@noitsnotcss-networks.commy.invalid> wrote in message
news:ddvv8g$s9b$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
Graphite500
jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x) wrote:
> In Group: alt.online-service.webtv ....On Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2005,
> 12:14pm .... Highlander (<Highlander>)_Posted_This_Article:
>
> >A Walk Through The Xbox 360 Evaluation
> >Lab [3DO, WebTV, IBM, ATI joined up to
> >make Xbox 360]
>
> ...The hidden moral of the Article/Story (re-copied in full below) IS;
> -- That if you wish to survive in the Cyber_World, you then, just like
> Life itself, MUST *Evolve*, *Adapt*, and *Morph/Change*, if you wish to
> continue on with your Cyber-Existence!! .....And WebTV has shown itself
> to be *EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those things (ever *Evolving",
> *Adapting*, *Morphing*, & *Changing*) so as to survive, and continue
> on!!
>
> ....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!! ;-O!!
> ....YOU GO WEBTV!!!! ;-O!!
Thats, an very interesting spin, javie.
> Microsoft acquired its position in the heart of Silicon
> Valley when it bought WebTV Networks for $425 million in 1997. That was
> a very expensive boondoggle.
--
"Most of our users don't know what an URL is. What people
don't realize about WebTV is that the main characteristics
that people buy it for are reliability and ease of use,
not innovation," Steve Perlman 1998
"They say I talk a lil fast, but if you listen a lil faster
I ain't got to slow down for you to catch up, BITCH" 50 Cent, 2003
Paul Ding
<ca...@noitsnotcss-networks.commy.invalid> posted something that
included:
>> Me wants an XBox 360
>> technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
>isn't it funny how lust is an anagram of slut!
It's not necessarily a accident. The origins of the word "slut" are
not clear, but the word may be a cross between the words slattern and
lust, since the word slut connotates not only one who lusts, but also
one who is untidy and filthy.
>I'm not trying to be rude or insulting btw, it's just that I skimmed your
>post and thought I read "technoslut" :)
Melodie has a reputation here of being playful, but not of behaving in
a disreputable manner.
Insults usually don't work unless there's at least a little bit of
truth to them - which is why Graphite usually sticks to "senior
technologist" in trying to insult me. He is wet behind the ears, so
I'm relatively senior, and he rarely knows what he's talking about, so
I'm a technologist compared to him.
When he really goes around the bend, he hasn't the ability to act as
an adult, so he reverts to kindergarten behavior, crying "Liar, Liar"
at anything he doesn't want to hear, and anyone he perceives as a
meanyhead.
--
If we're losing 40-130 species a day,
How come nobody can itemize them?
And why can't fruitflies be one of them?
Paul Ding
<graph...@hotmail.com> posted something that included:
>> Microsoft acquired its position in the heart of Silicon
>> Valley when it bought WebTV Networks for $425 million in 1997. That was
>> a very expensive boondoggle.
Actually, Microsoft acquired its position in the heart of Silicon
Valley when it bought Hotmail several months earlier.
And when WNI sold their subscribers to MSN in June 2001, that
subscriber list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had more than a million
subscribers, and at that point, dialup ISPs were selling for $2439 per
subscriber.
And if a 574% return on your money in 4 years isn't enough, remember
that WNI still exists as an engineering company, and they are the ones
who have created the new Xbox 360 as Microsoft intellectual property
instead of using other companys' parts, so that Microsoft doesn't
suffer as they did with the original Xbox when Nvidia dropped the
ball.
Take a look at these companies acquired by Microsoft, and find 10
companies here which returned 574% in 4 years.
* Access Software (1999)
* ActiveViews (2004)
* aha! Software (1996)
* Altamira (1994)
* Aspect Software Engineering (1996)
* Blue Ribbon SoundWorks Ltd. (1995)
* Bruce Artwick Organization Ltd (1995)
* Bungie Software (2000)
* Colusa Software (1996)
* CompareNet (1999)
* Connectix Ltd (2003)
* Cooper & Peters (1997)
* Dare to Dream Intertainment (1995)
* Design Intelligence (2001)
* Digital Anvil (2000)
* Dimension X (1997)
* Driveoff.Com (2000)
* Electric Gravity Inc (1996)
* Ensemble Studios Corp (2001)
* Entropic Inc. (UK, 1999)
* eShop Inc (1996)
* EXOS Inc (1996)
* FASA Studio (1999)
* Firefly Network (1998)
* Flash Communications (1998)
* Forethought Inc.(1987)
* Great Plains Software (2000)
* Groove Networks Inc (2005)
* Hotmail (1997)
* Interoperability Technology, Expertise from Netwise Inc. (1995)
* Intersé (1997)
* Jump Networks (1999)
* LinkAge Software (1997)
* LinkExchange (1998)
* The MESA Group (1998)
* MongoMusic Inc. (2000)
* Navision (Denmark) (2002)
* NCompass Labs (2001)
* NetCarta (1996)
* NetGames USA (2000)
* NextBase (UK, 1994)
* OmniBrowse (1999)
* One Tree Software (1994)
* Pacific Microsonics Inc (2000)
* Panorama Software (1996)
* Peach Networks (Israel, 2000)
* PlaceWare Inc (2003)
* Rare Ltd. (UK, 2002)
* RenderMorphics Ltd (UK, 1995)
* ResNova Software (1996)
* Sendit (Sweden, 1999)
* ShadowFactor (Canada, 1999)
* SNMP Technology From Network Managers (UK, 1995)
* SOFTIMAGE (1994)
* Softway Systems (1999)
* STNC (UK, 1999)
* Valence Research (1998)
* Vermeer Technologies Inc (1996)
* Vicinity Corporation (2002)
* Visio Corporation (1999)
* Vxtreme (1997)
* WebAppoint (2000)
* Xdegrees Inc (2002)
* ZOOMIT (1999)
Since 1994, Microsoft has invested in about 140 companies world-wide,
including these. Find 10 companies here that have returned 574% on
Microsoft's investment in four years.
* @Home Solutions (1999)
* Accel Partners (1998)
* Akamai Technologies Inc (1999)
* Ameranth (2000)
* American City Business Journals (2001)
* Amicore (2001)
* Apple Computer Inc (1997)
* Ardent Communications Inc. (2000)
* Asia Global Crossing Ltd (1999)
* AT&T (1999)
* Audible (1999, 2001)
* Avanade (2000)
* Avid Technology Inc (1998)
* Banyan Systems (1999)
* Best Buy (1999)
* Big Huge Games (2000)
* Black Entertainment Television (BET) (1996)
* Blackboard (2001)
* Blixer (Italy, 2000)
* BroadBand Office Inc (2000)
* Bungie Studios (2000)
* CareerBuilder (1999)
* Chyron Corporation (2000)
* CMG Plc (UK, 1996)
* CMGI Inc (1998)
* Comcast Corporation (1997)
* Commerce One Inc (2001)
* CommTouch Software Inc (1999)
* CommVault Systems Inc (2000)
* CompUSA Inc (2000)
* Concentric Network Corporation (1999)
* ContentGuard (2000)
* Corel Corporation (Canada, 2000)
* Corio Inc (2000)
* CPA2Biz (2001)
* CSI, Inc (2000)
* Data Return LLC (1999)
* Dialogic (1999)
* Digex (2000)
* Digital Anvil (1997)
* Digital Entertainment Network (DEN) (1999)
* Digital Equipment Corp (1995)
* Digital Island (2000)
* Digital Sound Corporation (1997)
* DiscoverMusic.com (1999)
* DreamWorks SKG (1995)
* DSL.net Inc (1999)
* eFusion (1997)
* eLabor (2000)
* Encompys (2001)
* EndForce Inc (2002)
* Entex (1996)
* Equinix Inc (1999)
* Evoke Software Corp (2000)
* Expedia.com (1999)
* Extreme Logic (2001)
* Fairmarket Inc (1999)
* First Data Corporation (1997)
* FutureLink Corporation (2000)
* General Magic (1998)
* GigaMedia Ltd (Taiwan, 1999)
* Gilat Satellite Networks Ltd (Israel, 2000)
* Groove Networks Inc (2001)
* Helicon Publishing Group PLC (UK, 1996)
* Hitachi Ltd (Japan, 2000)
* HomeAdvisor Technologies (2000)
* Hutchison Global Crossing Ltd (Hong Kong) (2000)
* i-Deal (2001)
* Immersion Corporation (2003)
* Individual Inc (1995)
* Infolibria Inc (2001)
* Interland Inc (2000)
* Interliant (2000)
* Intertainer (2000)
* ITRAN Communications Ltd (Israel, 2000)
* Jato Communications (2000)
* Keen.com (1999)
* Korea Thrunet Co. Ltd (1999)
* KT Corporation (Korea) (2001)
* Lernout & Hauspie (Belgium, 1997)
* MEASAT Broadcast Network Systems (Malaysia, 2000)
* MediaWave Inc (UK, 2001)
* MyPlant.com (2000)
* Navitel Communications Inc (1997)
* NBC Television Network (1995)
* Net Serviços de Comunicação S.A (Brazil, 1999)
* Nextel Communications Inc (1999)
* NorthPoint Communications Group Inc (1999)
* NTL Inc (UK, 1999)
* OpenPort (1998)
* Plural Inc (2000)
* Pluto Technologies (Norway, 1998)
* Portugal Telecom, SGPS, S.A. (1999)
* Proginet Corporation (1996)
* Qwest Communications (1998)
* Radiant Systems (2000)
* RadioShack Corporation (1999)
* RealNames (2000)
* RealNetworks (1997)
* Reciprocal Inc (1999)
* Reservation Works LLC (1998)
* Rhythms NetConnections Inc (1999)
* Road Runner (1998)
* Rogers Communications (Canada) (1999)
* SeaChange International (2000)
* Sendo Holdings PLC (UK, 2001)
* SingleTrac Entertainment Technologies (1996)
* SkyTel (1996)
* SMART LLC (Mexico, 2001)
* SRS Labs (2000)
* Stamps.com Inc (1997)
* Tandem (1996)
* TCI International Inc (1994)
* Telecom New Zealand (2001)
* Telewest Group Inc 22.9% (2000 [1]
* Grupo Televisa, S.A. — A Mexican television company
* Teligent Inc (1999)
* Telmex (Mexico, 1999)
* ThingWorld.com (1999)
* Ticketmaster (1999)
* TITUS Communications (Japan, 2000)
* TRADOS Incorporated (1997)
* Tut Systems Inc (1998)
* UGC Europe (1999)
* UnitedGlobalCom Inc (1999)
* Usinternetworking Inc (2000)
* USWeb (1999)
* UUNET (1995)
* Vanstar (1995)
* VDOnet (1996)
* VenturCom (2000)
* Verisign (1996)
* VerticalNet (2000)
* Wang (1995)
* WebMD (1999)
* Wildfire Communications (1997)
* Wink Communications (1999)
* WirelessKnowledge (1998)
* Yam Digital Technology (Taiwan, 2000)
keith
>
> "AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~" <anono...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:UNqMe.22198$Ji4.9153@fed1read03...
>> Me wants an XBox 360
>> technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
>>
>
> isn't it funny how lust is an anagram of slut!
No.
> I'm not trying to be rude or insulting btw, it's just that I skimmed your
> post and thought I read "technoslut" :)
That says more about you than her. Note that I rather like her attitude,
what I've seen of it (from whatever group she cross-posts from).
--
Keith
Graphite500
Paul Ding <lanc...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> And when WNI sold their subscribers to MSN in June 2001, that
> subscriber list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had more than a million
> subscribers, and at that point, dialup ISPs were selling for $2439 per
> subscriber.
Liar.
Paul Ding
>> to MSN in June 2001, that subscriber
>> list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had
>> more than a million subscribers, and
>> at that point, dialup ISPs were selling
>> for $2439 per subscriber.
> Liar.
Idiot.
Phil
"Paul Ding" <Lanc...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1850-430...@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net...
>>> And when WNI sold their subscribers
>>> to MSN in June 2001, that subscriber
>>> list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had
>>> more than a million subscribers, and
>>> at that point, dialup ISPs were selling
>>> for $2439 per subscriber.
>> Liar.
>
> Idiot.
==Javelin==>x
I, (==Javelin==>x)_Wrote:
>>...The hidden moral of the Article/Story
>>(re-copied in full below) IS; -- That if you
>>wish to survive in the Cyber_World, you
>>then, just like Life itself, MUST *Evolve*,
>>*Adapt*, and *Morph/Change*, if you wish
>>to continue on with your Cyber-Existence!!
>>.....And WebTV has shown itself to be
>>*EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those
>>things (ever *Evolving", *Adapting*,
>>*Morphing*, & *Changing*) so as to
>>survive, and continue on!!
>>....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!! ;-O!!
>>....YOU GO WEBTV!!!! ;-O!!
Then, In Group: alt.online-service.webtv ....On Date: Wed, Aug 17, 2005,
8:58pm (CDT+5) .... graph...@hotmail.com (Graphite500)_Said:
>Thats, an very interesting spin, javie.
...There's no "Spin" here, just *FACTS*!!
Then Lil' Graphie posted a quote from the original article; -- Where
that article's author said:
>Microsoft acquired its position in the heart
>of Silicon Valley when it bought WebTV
>Networks for $425 million in 1997. That
>was a very expensive boondoggle.
...The "Boondoggles" are the Multi-Dozens of boxes, and Set-Top
services which have *FAILED*, and no longer exist!!
...This WebTV *"Boondoggle"* has been around for nine(9), going onto
ten(10) years now. ....Which is five(5) years beyond the year that you
(Graphie) yourself predicted for it's (WebTV's) *DEMISE* (I can
Google-Up that old post, and thread of yours, if you'd like).
...Once again, "Opinions are like Anal-Cavities; -- Everybody has one,
and they all *Stink*"!!
...Ya' know, it really doesn't matter what the author of an obscure
little article thinks (Pro, and/or Con) of WebTV, and it's services.
...It also, does NOT matter what you (Lil-Graphie); -- The consistently
negative poster about WebTV, and it's services; -- Says/Posts (in some
obscure little Online-Service group) about it (WebTV), and it's
services.
...All that *Actually* matters here; -- Is what Bill Gates, and
Microsoft think of the WebTV/MSN-TV box, and/or it's services!! ....And
judging by the fact that they, (Gates, & Microsoft) keep on expanding
WebTV's/MSN-TV's reach; -- Via various Net accessing platforms
(Classic-1, Classic-2, Dishplayer, Plus-1, Plus-2, MSN-TV-2, and now
XBox-360); -- I'd say it's obvious that they (Gates, & Company) seem to
*LIKE_IT_VERY_MUCH*!!
...And here's hoping that they (Gates, & Company) keep on
*LIKING_(WEBTV/MSN-TV)_VERY_MUCH*!!
...And now, once again........
....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!!! ;-O!!!
....YOU GO WEBTV/MSN-TV!!! ;-O!!!
--
(===Javelin===>x)
Jav...@webtv.net
==Javelin==>x
From: wall3...@THISbellsouth.net (Phil):
>>>>And when WNI sold their subscribers
>>>>to MSN in June 2001, that subscriber
>>>>list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had
>>>>more than a million subscribers, and
>>>>at that point, dialup ISPs were selling
>>>>for $2439 per subscriber.
>>>Liar.
>>Idiot.
>copycat.
...Instigator!
--
(===Javelin===>x)
Jav...@webtv.net
Phil
"==Javelin==>x" <jav...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15043-430...@storefull-3315.bay.webtv.net...
>
> I, (==Javelin==>x)_Wrote:
>
>>>...The hidden moral of the Article/Story
>>>(re-copied in full below) IS; -- That if you
>>>wish to survive in the Cyber_World, you
>>>then, just like Life itself, MUST *Evolve*,
>>>*Adapt*, and *Morph/Change*, if you wish
>>>to continue on with your Cyber-Existence!!
>>>.....And WebTV has shown itself to be
>>>*EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those
>>>things (ever *Evolving", *Adapting*,
>>>*Morphing*, & *Changing*) so as to
>>>survive, and continue on!!
>
>>>....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!! ;-O!!
>>>....YOU GO WEBTV!!!! ;-O!!
yee
haw
>
> --
> (===Javelin===>x)
> Jav...@webtv.net
>
carl0s
"keith" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.18....@att.bizzzz...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:22:08 +0100, carl0s wrote:
>
>>
>> "AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~" <anono...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:UNqMe.22198$Ji4.9153@fed1read03...
>>> Me wants an XBox 360
>>> technolust.....drool....must game...HALO....more....HALO....
>>>
>>
>> isn't it funny how lust is an anagram of slut!
>
> No.
Perhaps not for you. Miserable day, eh?
>
>> I'm not trying to be rude or insulting btw, it's just that I skimmed your
>> post and thought I read "technoslut" :)
>
> That says more about you than her. Note that I rather like her attitude,
> what I've seen of it (from whatever group she cross-posts from).
It doesn't say anything about anybody, hence me clarifying that I wasn't
making a personal comment, rather an observation of the written word. I
suggest you wind your neck in and shut yer gob.
Graphite500
jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x) wrote:
> >>.....And WebTV has shown itself to be
> >>*EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those
> >>things (ever *Evolving", *Adapting*,
> >>*Morphing*, & *Changing*) so as to
> >>survive, and continue on!!
>
> >>....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!! ;-O!!
> >>....YOU GO WEBTV!!!! ;-O!!
>
>
> Then, In Group: alt.online-service.webtv ....On Date: Wed, Aug 17, 2005,
> 8:58pm (CDT+5) .... graph...@hotmail.com (Graphite500)_Said:
>
> >Thats, an very interesting spin, javie.
>
> ...There's no "Spin" here, just *FACTS*!!
>
>
> Then Lil' Graphie posted a quote from the original article; -- Where
> that article's author said:
>
> >Microsoft acquired its position in the heart
> >of Silicon Valley when it bought WebTV
> >Networks for $425 million in 1997. That
> >was a very expensive boondoggle.
>
> ...The "Boondoggles" are the Multi-Dozens of boxes, and Set-Top
> services which have *FAILED*, and no longer exist!!
WebTV no longer exists, but thats not the point.
When you use an article that calls WebTV "a very expensive boondoggle"
and some how interpret that to be "*EXCELLENT* at doing ALL of those
things (ever *Evolving", *Adapting*, *Morphing*, & *Changing*). I call
that the Mother Of All Spins.
Paul Ding
>>>> to MSN in June 2001, that subscriber
>>>> list was worth $2.4 BILLION. They had
>>>> more than a million subscribers, and
>>>> at that point, dialup ISPs were selling
>>>> for $2439 per subscriber.
>>>Liar.
>>Idiot.
>copycat.
Yes. But he *is* an idiot, none the less.
Paul Ding
> the point.
The engineers that work there would be surprised to know that.
==Javelin==>x
In Group: alt.online-service.webtv ....On Date: Thu, Aug 18, 2005,
9:00pm (CDT+5) .... graph...@hotmail.com (Graphite500)_Wrote:
>WebTV no longer exists, but thats not the
>point.
...HUH!!???? <¿Puzzlement?> ....I'm slow sometimes to pick up on
various peoples natures; -- But, I think I just figured out what's
possibly going on with you, Graphie!! ....You're just plain; -- Well,
there's no way to say it delicately; -- So, I'll just say it; --You're
just plain *Crazy*!!! ;-O <Pity> ;-.(...
....Uhmmmm, "WNI" (WebTV Networks Inc.) DOES *Exist*, and is STILL
based at it's old compound there in Mountain View, California.
....Furthermore, haven't you noticed my E-mail address after all of
these years of posting into this newsgroup! ....It's: ........
"Jav...@WEBTV.NET"!!
...And here's my address trace, which I believe indicates that I'm
posting from WebTV.net, via a WebTV.net device, and thru webtv.net
servers!!
[BEGIN Address Trace Info.]........
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A7?=
Message-ID: <15022-430...@storefull-3315.bay.webtv.net>
Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-31347-929
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
--WebTV-Mail-31347-929
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
--WebTV-Mail-31347-929
Content-Disposition: Inline
Content-Type: Message/RFC822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
From: jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x)
Newsgroups: alt.online-service.webtv
Subject: Re: A Walk Through The Xbox 360 Evaluation Lab [3DO, WebTV,
IBM,...
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:22:18 -0500
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <15043-430...@storefull-3315.bay.webtv.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
X-WebTV-Signature: 1
ETAtAhUAoEDBRizekTPBdG8H6Ceze+o4x64CFCM8XZWlineFZg89w83ugXqyG02/
Content-Disposition: Inline
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.......[/END address Trace]
...BWAA-HAAA-HAAAAA!!! ;-)))
>When you use an article that calls WebTV
>"a very expensive boondoggle" and some
>how interpret that to be "*EXCELLENT* at
>doing ALL of those things (ever
>*Evolving", *Adapting*, *Morphing*, &
>*Changing*). I call that the Mother Of All
>Spins.
...No need to post anything further of a fresh nature here in this
post; -- So, I'll just post what I posted before (word, for word).
...Maybe, you'll be able to understand what is being said the second
time around!!
[BEGIN Re-Post]........
..There's no "Spin" here, just *FACTS*!!
..The "Boondoggles" are the Multi-Dozens of boxes, and Set-Top services
which have *FAILED*, and no longer exist!!
..This WebTV *"Boondoggle"* has been around for nine(9), going onto
ten(10) years now. ....Which is five(5) years beyond the year that you
(Graphie) yourself predicted for it's (WebTV's) *DEMISE* (I can
Google-Up that old post, and thread of yours, if you'd like).
..Once again, "Opinions are like Anal-Cavities; -- Everybody has one,
and they all *Stink*"!!
..Ya' know, it really doesn't matter what the author of an obscure
little article thinks (Pro, and/or Con) of WebTV, and it's services.
..It also, does NOT matter what you (Lil-Graphie); -- The consistently
negative poster about WebTV, and it's services; -- Says/Posts (in some
obscure little Online-Service group) about it (WebTV), and it's
services.
..All that *Actually* matters here; -- Is what Bill Gates, and
Microsoft think of the WebTV/MSN-TV box, and/or it's services!!
...And judging by the fact that they, (Gates, & Microsoft) keep on
expanding WebTV's/MSN-TV's reach; -- Via various Net accessing platforms
(Classic-1, Classic-2, Dishplayer, Plus-1, Plus-2, MSN-TV-2, and now
XBox-360); -- I'd say it's obvious that they (Gates, & Company) seem to
*LIKE_IT_VERY_MUCH*!!
..And here's hoping that they (Gates, & Company) keep on
*LIKING_(WEBTV/MSN-TV)_VERY_MUCH*!!
..And now, once again........
....YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAA!!! ;-O!!!
....YOU GO WEBTV/MSN-TV!!! ;-O!!!
.......[/END Post, & Re-Post]
--
(===Javelin===>x)
Jav...@webtv.net
Graphite500
jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x) wrote:
> ....Uhmmmm, "WNI" (WebTV Networks Inc.) DOES *Exist*, and is STILL
> based at it's old compound there in Mountain View, California.
Nope it sure isn't. MSNTV is located at the Microsoft Northern
California District: Silicon Valley Campus.
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/info/usaoffices/northernca/siliconvalley.
mspx
BTW, I think we covered this before, but FYI again, the old WebTV
"compound" if you want to call it that, was a few very small (store
front type buildings, in Downtown, Palo Alto CA, an Layton Ave, Bryant
St., and of course the original now famous garage, between Alma St., and
High St. Nothing like the Micro$oft campus, in Mountain View. You can
zoom out on the following map to see where that is in relationship to
Mountain View.
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=305+Lytton+Ave,+Palo+Alto,+CA+94301
> ....Furthermore, haven't you noticed my E-mail address after all of
> these years of posting into this newsgroup! ....It's: ........
>
> "Jav...@WEBTV.NET"!!
That is a legacy email address. Lots of people have legacy email address
from ISPs that no longer exist, and have been taken over by others.
martin jones
Paul Ding
<graph...@hotmail.com> posted something that included:
>In article <17774-430...@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>,
> jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x) wrote:
>> ....Uhmmmm, "WNI" (WebTV Networks Inc.) DOES *Exist*, and is STILL
>> based at it's old compound there in Mountain View, California.
>Nope it sure isn't. MSNTV is located at the Microsoft Northern
>California District: Silicon Valley Campus.
But MSNTV and WNI aren't the same thing. MSNTV operates an online
service. WNI does hardware design.
And what is currently called the Microsoft's silicon valley campus
*IS*, in fact, WebTV's old compound in Mountain View. It was
originally built for WebTV in 1998.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/1998/05/04/story4.html
(Notice that my URLs don't break. Yours frequently do. Maybe you
should get rid of that obsolete Mac you have, and get something that
has a decent USENET client.)
>BTW, I think we covered this before, but FYI again, the old WebTV
>"compound" if you want to call it that, was a few very small (store
>front type buildings, in Downtown, Palo Alto CA, an Layton Ave, Bryant
>St., and of course the original now famous garage, between Alma St., and
>High St.
I think we can all agree that what you refer to is not a compound, is
not in Mountain View, and is not where WNI is located. But Javelin
never said it was. He said WNI was located at the old WebTV compound
in Mountain View.
Graphite500
Paul Ding <lanc...@webtv.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:26:00 GMT, Graphite500
> <graph...@hotmail.com> posted something that included:
>
> >In article <17774-430...@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>,
> > jav...@webtv.net (==Javelin==>x) wrote:
>
> >> ....Uhmmmm, "WNI" (WebTV Networks Inc.) DOES *Exist*, and is STILL
> >> based at it's old compound there in Mountain View, California.
>
> >Nope it sure isn't. MSNTV is located at the Microsoft Northern
> >California District: Silicon Valley Campus.
>
> But MSNTV and WNI aren't the same thing. MSNTV operates an online
> service. WNI does hardware design.
>
> And what is currently called the Microsoft's silicon valley campus
> *IS*, in fact, WebTV's old compound in Mountain View. It was
> originally built for WebTV in 1998.
> http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/1998/05/04/story4.html
Thats a good find, but it doesn't prove anything. Read the date on the
article. I'll give you, that that complex was built for WebTV. However
by the time it was finished (about 2001) the WebTV name was already
history. As other articles posted here pointed out, most of what M$, at
the Mountain View complex, is design the X-box. So it's more like the
former X-box compound, then the former WebTV compound. Below are some of
the HQs for WebTV/MSNTV (there are probable more, that I don't know
about). Probable the last WebTV flagged building was probable Charleston
Rd, but that was replaces with M$ before it moved to the current
location.
305 Lytton Ave, Palo Alto, CA
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=305+Lytton+Ave,+Palo+Alto,+CA
2593 Coast Avenue, Mountain View, CA 94043
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=2593+Coast+Avenue,+Mountain+View,+CA
+94043
1250 Charleston Rd, Mountain View, CA 94043
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=1250+Charleston+Rd,+Mountain+View,+C
A+94043
1065 La Avenida St, Mountain View, CA 94043
http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=1065+La+Avenida+Ave,+Mountain+View,+
CA+94043
> (Notice that my URLs don't break. Yours frequently do. Maybe you
> should get rid of that obsolete Mac you have, and get something that
> has a decent USENET client.)
Daah, maybe they wouldn't brake for you, if you had a Mac.
> >BTW, I think we covered this before, but FYI again, the old WebTV
> >"compound" if you want to call it that, was a few very small (store
> >front type buildings, in Downtown, Palo Alto CA, an Layton Ave, Bryant
> >St., and of course the original now famous garage, between Alma St., and
> >High St.
>
> I think we can all agree that what you refer to is not a compound, is
> not in Mountain View, and is not where WNI is located. But Javelin
> never said it was. He said WNI was located at the old WebTV compound
> in Mountain View.
If WNI is still located on Charleston, Rd. then he is correct, but I
don't believe that is the case. I could probable drive by there and
check, though.
Paul Ding
<graph...@hotmail.com> posted something that included:
>I'll give you, that that complex was built for WebTV.
Thank you.
>> (Notice that my URLs don't break. Yours frequently do. Maybe you
>> should get rid of that obsolete Mac you have, and get something that
>> has a decent USENET client.)
>Daah, maybe they wouldn't brake for you, if you had a Mac.
Your USENET client is inserting whitespace in the middle of the URLs
you post because it's *pissed* that I have a better computer?
>If WNI is still located on Charleston, Rd. then he is correct, but I
>don't believe that is the case. I could probable drive by there and
>check, though.
According to Google, the phone book says they at 1250 Charleston Road.
http://www.google.com/search?sa=X&oi=fwp&pb=f&q=WebTV+Networks,+Inc+Mountain+View+CA
Webtv Networks Inc, (650) 210-8627, 1250 Charleston Rd, Mountain View,
CA 94043
Graphite500
Paul Ding <lanc...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> According to Google, the phone book says they at 1250 Charleston Road.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?sa=X&oi=fwp&pb=f&q=WebTV+Networks,+Inc+Mountain+V
> iew+CA
>
> Webtv Networks Inc, (650) 210-8627, 1250 Charleston Rd, Mountain View,
> CA 94043
>
"We are sorry, you have reached a number, that has been disconnected, or
is no longer in service."
I think that settles that. WebTV Networks Inc. is history. Micro$oft is
not even bothering to forward calls from that number. As I said I can
drive by and take a look at the building, but most likely it is vacant.
Most of the real estate in that area, has been vacant, since the dot.com
bust.
Mattinglyfan
"carl0s" <ca...@noitsnotcss-networks.commy.invalid> wrote in message
I love it when the poindexter gloves come off.
Lucie
but wanted a PS2 slim (already had a PS2) a his "passed school" gift.I
guess not wanting to "evolve" runs in the family according to some
people here.
Graphite500
Graphite500 <graph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <uafdg1lfppdr374e9...@4ax.com>,
> Paul Ding <lanc...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > According to Google, the phone book says they at 1250 Charleston Road.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/search?sa=X&oi=fwp&pb=f&q=WebTV+Networks,+Inc+Mountain
> > +V
> > iew+CA
> >
> > Webtv Networks Inc, (650) 210-8627, 1250 Charleston Rd, Mountain View,
> > CA 94043
> >
>
> "We are sorry, you have reached a number, that has been disconnected, or
> is no longer in service."
>
> I think that settles that. WebTV Networks Inc. is history. Micro$oft is
> not even bothering to forward calls from that number. As I said I can
> drive by and take a look at the building, but most likely it is vacant.
> Most of the real estate in that area, has been vacant, since the dot.com
> bust.
Update: the former WebTV "compound" (all one building of it), is
available, and the phone number is disconnected. If that doesn't prove
that WebTV Networks Inc. no longer exists, I don't know could.