Hunters Hot Springs photograph
Jason Leaf
Anyone interested in an old west group photo, which has been the source of
much debate recently, may look at my web site
http://www.huntershotsprings.com and judge for themselves who's who and
what's what.
Jason.
Gerald Clough
There's really nothing much to go on without a correct date. You can
likely place all those people alive and potentially in the same place at
*some* point. T.R. was all over that area in 1886. (Not 1883, and not
later.) Roy Bean *might* have been around there. There's nothing to
suggest he left south Texas during that time. He did lose an election in
1886, but he also had two saloons going, one at Langtry and one at
Sanderson.
Certainly, the place is noted correctly.
One of the most troubling things about this photo is the date. If
correctly dated, the people are not who they purport to be, or at least
not all of them. If incorrectly labeled, you kind of have to wonder why
the date's wrong. If incorrect, it would have to have been labeled
enough later for the year to be mistakenly remembered. It's quite
possible that some of the men in it are correctly named, and others were
just presumed, based on resemblences.
The facial resemblences don't really help. If you were getting up a joke
photo or staging one, you'd certainly pick out those who fit.
To date, there's just too much uncertainty about everything but the
place. It's tempting to call it a most remarkable circumstance to have
all these folks in one place, but, if authentic, it's really remarkable
as a photo, not as a matter of men being in the same place at the same
time. But the early west really war a rather small place, in terms of
people and places.
For now, it's just going to have to stand as not proven as to all
identifications. I'm sort of inclined to the "some of them are who they
say they are" idea.
--
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Clo...@Texas.Net
"Nothing has any value unless you know you can give it up."
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Jason Leaf
> There's really nothing much to go on without a correct date. You can
> likely place all those people alive and potentially in the same place at
> *some* point. T.R. was all over that area in 1886. (Not 1883, and not
> later.)
Although we know, from the changes made to the Hunters Hot Springs
Hotel--especially with regard to the steps, that the photo was taken between
May 1886 and June 1888, my hunch is that it was taken very soon after the
grand reopening of the hotel under new management in July 1886. I think the
debris and detritus in the foreground supports the idea that it was taken
shortly after the construction crew had finished the refurbishing. As well,
July is the month when we know Parker, Longabaugh and Roosevelt were within
proximity with each other in the Yellowstone Valley.
>Roy Bean *might* have been around there. There's nothing to
> suggest he left south Texas during that time. He did lose an election in
> 1886, but he also had two saloons going, one at Langtry and one at
> Sanderson.
Local Langtry historians, including Jack Skiles, say Bean remained in Texas
to manage his saloons during 1886. Another copy of the photo, bearing a
different list, showed up a little while ago (see Updates Item 3 on my web
site) stating a another possible Texas connection to the photo, however.
Figure 15 in the HHS photo, claims this list, is "Texas" John Slaughter.
Interestingly, this information came to me just after I discovered that
Figure 15 could not be local Yellowstone Valley resident Ben Greenough, as
the first list asserted (see Updates).
> Certainly, the place is noted correctly.
Thanks, I got lucky with that. The right material came to me at the right
time.
>you kind of have to wonder why the date's wrong. If incorrect, it would
have to have been labeled
> enough later for the year to be mistakenly remembered. It's quite possible
that some of the men in >it are correctly named, and others were just
presumed, based on resemblences.
The dating of the various lists is something I have neglected. I am working
on it now and, from my preliminary research, my guess is that the first list
was produced between 1898 and 1901. Can you guess why?
> The facial resemblences don't really help. If you were getting up a joke
> photo or staging one, you'd certainly pick out those who fit.
The problem with the "masquerade" theory is that the steps to the hotel only
existed for two years, between 1886 and 1888. Why would anyone impersonate
Butch and Sundance in those years, before they became known to the public,
or even used those aliases?
>The early west really was a rather small place, in terms of people and
places.
I understand this point, it lends credence (I think) to the idea that there
wasn't a ready pool of look-alikes running around southeast Montana from
which someone could draw candiates for a prank.
>I'm sort of inclined to the "some of them are who they say they are" idea.
I'll settle for that.
Jason.
Gerald Clough
> Local Langtry historians, including Jack Skiles, say Bean remained in Texas
> to manage his saloons during 1886. Another copy of the photo, bearing a
> different list, showed up a little while ago (see Updates Item 3 on my web
> site) stating a another possible Texas connection to the photo, however.
> Figure 15 in the HHS photo, claims this list, is "Texas" John Slaughter.
> Interestingly, this information came to me just after I discovered that
> Figure 15 could not be local Yellowstone Valley resident Ben Greenough, as
> the first list asserted (see Updates).
Of course, there's nothing to say Bean wouldn't travel for some purpose
after losing an election, but I think there would have to be some good
reason. That would have been quite a trip to make without a decent
reason. It would probably have been chancy leaving two saloons. His
documented trips are to San Antonio.
Greenough would have been a natural to be listed with his friend,
Johnson. If it can't be him, it also points up how resemblences,
especially between bearded men, are easy to accept, once you settle on
someone it might be.
Is it labeled "Texas John Slaughter" or just "John Slaughter"? In
addition to "Texas" John Horton Slaughter (1841-1922) (who was raised
outside of Lockhart where I'm sitting), John Bunyan Slaughter
(1848-1928) was a well known Texas rancher. In 1886, he sold his ranch
in New Mexico and took up ranching on the Green River in Utah. I don't
have a photo of him, but there is probably one somewhere. In 1886,
"Texas John" was getting elected sheriff of Cochise County and was very
busy, before and after.
Either man *could* have been in Montana. It might actually seem more
likely that John Bunyan Slaughter would have been traveling. His cow
business was in flux about then, while "Texas John" was settled and
occupied, although he was engaged in interstate business, including
partnership in a Los Angeles slaughter house.
The habit on the range was to give nearly everyone nicknames, and
"Texas" got hung on a lot of men from Texas. And it's not a far leap
from sitting around looking at an old photo and recollecting "John
Slaughter from Texas" to assuming it was the one who had the gunfighter
reputation in company with other present and future shooters.
> The problem with the "masquerade" theory is that the steps to the hotel only
> existed for two years, between 1886 and 1888. Why would anyone impersonate
> Butch and Sundance in those years, before they became known to the public,
> or even used those aliases?
Of course, it would be unlikely that they would be noted on a photo in
1883 or 1886, but then, it's always been assumed that the labels were
added a good bit later when they would have been notables.
I've always been troubled by the image labeled as Roosevelt. It's true
that he beefed up pretty heavy from the slender youth in an 1881 photo
in Europe to his ranching days, but the man in the photo doesn't give me
the same impression I get from photos of TR in that period. I wish he'd
been standing. TR tended to strike a fairly distinctive pose. But the
facial resemblence is very close, and that does appears to be a cigar in
his mouth. <g>
Jason Leaf
> Of course, there's nothing to say Bean wouldn't travel for some purpose
> after losing an election, but I think there would have to be some good
> reason. That would have been quite a trip to make without a decent
> reason. It would probably have been chancy leaving two saloons. His
> documented trips are to San Antonio.
Last year when I learned that Bean lost the 1886 election, I thought it
might be possible that he was so perturbed by the decision of the electorate
that he went off in a huff, like Nixon after his 1960 presidential election
defeat, saying something like "you won't have Roy Bean to kick around
anymore". However, since there is no documentation apart from his San
Antonio excursions I must conclude that the figure in the HHS photo is not
the Judge.
> Greenough would have been a natural to be listed with his friend,
> Johnson. If it can't be him, it also points up how resemblences,
> especially between bearded men, are easy to accept, once you settle on
> someone it might be.
I have interviewed members of the Greenough family. Deb Greenough,
great-great-grandson to Ben Greenough, is a rodeo star in bareback riding,
continuing the family tradition of horsemanship. He's as nice a fellow
(yessir, yes ma'am) as you would ever want to meet. The Greenough family
historian, Christin Lynn told me from Day One that Ben Greenough is not in
the photo because he would have been too young in 1886 to be Figure 15 in
the HHS image. She wouldn't supply me with a photo of Ben but, few months
ago I got one from the museum in Red Lodge. The late 1930's-era photo of
Ben Greenough makes it plain that he would have been much too young to be
HHS Figure 15 in 1886. He was the Liver Eater's young buddy, kind of like
the Skipper and Gilligan.
> Is it labeled "Texas John Slaughter" or just "John Slaughter"?
It is labeled "Texas" John Slaughter. I have two comparison photos of John
Slaughter on my web site comparison page. My information on this chap come
to me from the librarian in Tombstone. Her research cited "The Southwest of
John H. Slaughter 1841-1922" by Allen A. Erwin, published in 1965 by The
Arthur H. Clark Company in Glendale, California. Perhaps you can check my
comparison page and tell me which of the two Slaughters I'm using. I'm
pretty sure they are both John H. Slaughter.
>...it's always been assumed that the labels were added a good bit later
when they would have been >notables.
I'm guessing the first list was added between 1898 and 1901. TR first became
known as "Teddy" in 1898 and by the time he became president after the
McKinley assassination in 1901 surely people, such as the unknown annotator
of the HHS picture, would have been able to spell "Roosevelt" correctly. As
well, the 1898 to 1901 period took Butch and Sundance to new heights of
notoriety and it was still widely believed that Butch's real name was George
Parker at that time.
> I've always been troubled by the image labeled as Roosevelt. It's true
> that he beefed up pretty heavy from the slender youth in an 1881 photo
> in Europe to his ranching days, but the man in the photo doesn't give me
> the same impression I get from photos of TR in that period. I wish he'd
> been standing. TR tended to strike a fairly distinctive pose. But the
> facial resemblence is very close, and that does appears to be a cigar in
> his mouth. <g>
And spectacles in his hand? I've been trying to identify the object in
Figure 3's hands for over a year and a half. Any ideas? The top man at the
Theodore Roosevelt Collection at Harvard, Teddy's alma mater, says this is
not TR. Thus far, he has only stated his opinion based on visual inspection
of the comparison photos. Additionally however, and somewhat curiously I
think, when I asked him what sort of camera TR took on his 1886 Montana trip
he said there is no record of the type of camera he used. Even more strange,
to me, is the fact that he also said that "none of Roosevelt's Montana
pictures are known to survive".
Interesting stuff, eh?
Jason.
Gerald Clough
> It is labeled "Texas" John Slaughter. I have two comparison photos of John
> Slaughter on my web site comparison page. My information on this chap come
> to me from the librarian in Tombstone. Her research cited "The Southwest of
> John H. Slaughter 1841-1922" by Allen A. Erwin, published in 1965 by The
> Arthur H. Clark Company in Glendale, California. Perhaps you can check my
> comparison page and tell me which of the two Slaughters I'm using. I'm
> pretty sure they are both John H. Slaughter.
Yes. Both your photos resemble John H. Here are two more:
http://www.vtc.net/~sranch/History/history.html
http://www.theoldwestwebride.com/txt4/gs13.html
Of course, we're talking resemblences. I can't say if they also resemble
John B, since I find no photo of John B. I'll have to check with my
friend at the state library and see if there is one.
