Johnnie Carl, Conductor For Crystal Cathedral Orchestra (Wild Story)
Bill Schenley
ByLaura Wides
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20041217-0717-ca-churchshooting.html
(w/photo)
The conductor of the Crystal Cathedral Orchestra shot and killed
himself early Friday, hours after opening fire with a hangun in his
office within the massive church complex.
No one was hurt when 57-year-old Johnnie Carl, the orchestra's
conductor for the last 29 years, fired about four shots shortly before
5 p.m. in his office Thursday, and it did not appear he was trying to
hit anybody, police said. Children in a day care center were rushed to
safety.
Carl remained inside the complex for several hours after the shooting,
and shot himself in his office's bathroom at about 2 a.m. Friday as
police officers tried to talk to him.
The first shots were fired less than two hours before the scheduled
start of the cathedral's annual "Glory of Christmas" holiday show, for
which Carl had arranged the prerecorded music.
"He's talked to me on occasion when he has felt despondency," said
Michael Nason, a spokesman for the Rev. Robert Schuller, whose
internationally televised "Hour of Power" is broadcast from the
cathedral. It is home to Schuller's international Crystal Cathedral
Ministries and claims a congregation of more than 10,000 members.
Police and Nason released Carl's name early Friday.
Nason described Carl as a "musical genius" who had arranged or
recorded music for artists including Celine Dion, John Tesh, Michael
Crawford, the London Symphony, and Lee Greenwood. He earned a gold
record for his work as an arranger and orchestrator on Tesh's "Live
from Red Rocks" and a four-time platinum record for his work on Dion's
"These are Special Times."
Nason and police said they did not know the motive, but said Carl has
struggled in the past with depression. Nason said Carl had last talked
to him about his troubles about a year ago - "just a sense of personal
pressures, job, and things around him, dealing with people around
him," Nason said.
Officers had been attempting for several hours to contact Carl when he
shot himself, Garden Grove police Lt. Paul Prince said. When officers
heard the shot, they forced down a steel door and found Carl dead.
"Johnnie was a beloved member of our church family and close personal
friend," Schuller said in a statement. "He was a creative genius whose
beautiful arrangements and superb conducting set new levels of
excellence for sacred music. His music brought joy to the millions of
viewers around the world who watch the Crystal Cathedral's 'Hour of
Power' television program each week."
Schuller, who was at home when the first shooting occurred, came to
the command post police set up near the cathedral and taped a personal
message for Carl.
Police did not have the chance to play the message from Schuller or
another message from Carl's wife, but they did play him a message from
a friend who had successfully intervened in past cases where he had
become despondent, Prince said.
Some 100 cast members were preparing for the first of Thursday's two
scheduled Glory of Christmas programs when the gunfire rang out. Both
shows were canceled, but Friday's show will go on, Nason said.
"He would have been here," Nason said of Carl.
The Glory of Christmas began with the goal of becoming a Southern
California holiday tradition. Today it draws visitors from around the
world to a show that includes Christmas carols and a production
featuring live animals and such special effects as flying angels.
Prerecorded orchestration by the London Symphony Orchestra provides
the musical backdrop for live performances by adult and child
soloists. The cathedral's world-renowned pipe organ also fills the
structure with holiday sounds.
Schuller, the cathedral's longtime leader, arrived in Garden Grove in
1955, founding a local Reformed Church in America congregation. He
gained international fame almost immediately when he rented the Orange
Drive-in theater and began conducting Sunday services from the roof of
the snack bar.
As his congregation grew rapidly, he launched plans to build the
cathedral, which quickly became an architectural icon.
His son Robert Anthony Schuller is also an ordained minister and
preaches at the cathedral. Schuller has designated him as his
successor.
Carl is survived by his wife, Linda, and three children.
Also:
http://www.crystalcathedral.org/
FROM: The Los Angeles Times ~
By David Haldane and Daniel Yi, staff writers
An employee of the landmark Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove fired
four shots inside the giant church complex Thursday and threatened to
kill himself after police cornered him in a ministry office,
authorities said.
Police negotiators, accompanied by the employee's wife and church
founder the Rev. Robert H. Schuller, talked to the man late into the
night in hopes he would surrender. He had barricaded himself inside a
basement office shortly after the shooting, which occurred about 4:45
p.m.
"The situation is under control and the proper people are
communicating with him," said Schuller, who taped a message that
police were to deliver to the man. "No one is in danger."
The Times is withholding the name of the employee at the request of
the police, who say the man has threatened to kill himself if he is
identified by the news media. His motives were unknown.
No hostages were taken and no bystanders were hurt in the incident,
which occurred as the church prepared for two evening performances of
its annual "The Glory of Christmas" pageant, a nativity spectacle that
draws audiences of more than 2,000 per show.
As the events unfolded, scores of people were waiting in line outside
the cathedral to attend the 6:30 p.m. show.
Hearing shots, at least five cathedral employees hid inside their
offices in the church's administrative wing until police could escort
them to safety. A day-care center on the grounds was evacuated.
Hundreds of cars were lined up outside the grounds as police worked
feverishly to set up a perimeter. Church officials canceled the 6:30
and 8:30 p.m. performances, and police waved off would-be spectators.
"We've never had anything like this happen before. We are saddened and
we are praying," said Michael Nason, a spokesman for Schuller. "We are
foremost a church. We are about people."
Schuller started his Southern California ministry in 1955 at the
Orange Drive-In theater. Over the years, he developed it into one of
the nation's first mega-churches with his upbeat messages that
connected the power of positive thinking with Christianity.
The Crystal Cathedral's 40-acre campus on Chapman Avenue off the
Garden Grove Freeway serves about 8,000 worshipers for weekend
services. In addition, more than 1 million viewers worldwide watch the
services on Schuller's "The Hour of Power" television show.
That exposure annually brings to the church a half-million visitors
who want a firsthand look at the Crystal Cathedral, a towering
building made of steel and more than 10,000 panes of glass.
Richard Kinsey, an actor who participated in the Christmas pageant
last year, said he was shocked to hear about the shooting.
"They are a tremendous bunch of people" at the church, he said. "I
can't imagine who would want to harm them."
Police sealed off the church about 5 p.m. Thursday, about 15 minutes
after receiving reports that a man had fired four gunshots in the
sprawling complex.
They said they quickly cornered a man with a handgun in a basement
office near music practice rooms. When the man threatened suicide,
authorities brought in a negotiator.
Police quoted the man as saying at one point that he would shoot
himself if his name became public. The suspect was described as a
white man in his 50s.
"He is despondent and talking about doing himself harm," said Lt. Mike
Handfield, a police spokesman.
Meanwhile, authorities evacuated the cathedral grounds and set up a
security perimeter, cordoning off the area and surrounding streets
with yellow tape.
Handfield said that Thursday was family night, and church officials
had expected about 5,000 people to attend both Christmas shows. They
were turned away as they arrived, creating traffic jams in the
neighborhood.
On Lewis Street, next to the church, groups of people waiting to see
the pageant huddled below the shining edifice. They were told that the
evening performances were canceled.
"That's a shame. My mom is here from Iowa and thought it would be nice
to come and see" the show, said Bill Townsend, 64,of Rancho Santa
Margarita.
Ben Shelby, 55, of Apple Valley and his wife and three children were
planning to see the pageant for the first time Thursday.
"We heard there was a man with a gun and a hostage. We heard there
were shots fired," Shelby said.
"We were just waiting for them to cancel the show, and they did. It's
disappointing."
doc
@fe2.columbus.rr.com:
> Schuller started his Southern California ministry in 1955 at the
> Orange Drive-In theater. Over the years, he developed it into one of
> the nation's first mega-churches with his upbeat messages that
> connected the power of positive thinking with Christianity.
>
Schuller just seems to draw controversy and turmoil, like flies to manure.
He's kind of like the Criswell of American pop religion -- the old humbug.
LaneyII
i...@notarealisp.com
>What a shame. Carl was an incredibly talented musician.
Yeah and it speaks volumes about life at the Crystal Cathedral.
LaneyII
>
>Yeah and it speaks volumes about life at the Crystal Cathedral.
>
<yawn>
theresa
It might, or sometimes there are underlying medical
problems. He'd been depressed, and sometimes we are too
quick to send such people to conselors rather than to MDs.
I am thinking of the man who one day murdered his Mom and
then climbed up that Tower at the U of Texas.
The autopsy performed after the cop killed him showed a
brain tumor.
But, Churches and other closed societies often have
pathologies all their own, so we must be open to any
evidence presented on that possibility.
LaneyII
>patient to determine if there may be underlying medical factors, and if
>any are suspected and not brought up during the original consultation,
>will refer to an MD.
Carl apparently had an illness in the late 70s that caused weight gain. I
believe it was life threatening.
MadCow57
patient to determine if there may be underlying medical factors, and if
any are suspected and not brought up during the original consultation,
Not at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
theresa
Not at many hospitals...my aunt was a deeply religious woman
who one day started having religious visions. My uncle, who
never thought much of her devotion, had her placed in
psychiatric lockdown. Luckily, her sister found out and got
a neurologist to examine her.
He found a brain tumor.
None of the shrinks had her examined -- it took her sister's
intervention.
In her case, the diagnosis was "easy." In Carl's, I suspect
many facets were involved. He'd been depressed for a while,
but it isn't clear from any of the articles on how it
manifested. Did he wake up one day and feel bad? Did he
wake up and ask, "What's the point?" Several writers have
experienced and documented such black depressions. but I
can't recall any of them suddenly growing violent towards
others.
I'm not a doctor, but I suspect none of the current tests
can really tell us much unless there is a gross deformity
that shows up in MRIs or in blood work. Also, I understand
suicide runs in families, but I don't know anything about
this man's family background.
theresa
Harry Krause wrote:
>
> theresa wrote:
> >
> > MadCow57 wrote:
> >
> >>>>A professional, licensed psychotherapist will carefully screen a new
> >>
> >>patient to determine if there may be underlying medical factors, and if
> >>any are suspected and not brought up during the original consultation,
> >>will refer to an MD.<< -- Krause
> >>
> >>Not at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
> >
> >
> > Not at many hospitals...my aunt was a deeply religious woman
> > who one day started having religious visions. My uncle, who
> > never thought much of her devotion, had her placed in
> > psychiatric lockdown. Luckily, her sister found out and got
> > a neurologist to examine her.
>
> Pschiatric lockdown? You mean, admitted to a hospital with a locked
> ward? My wife did her internship at one of Florida's 650-bed state
> "forensic" hospitals, and reported that conditions were nowhere near as
> bad as the general public thought from its years of Hollywood movies.
> Further, laws require a judicial hearing after three days for anyone
> involuntarily committed in non-forensic matters.
>
Yes, a locked ward. Perhaps a nice locked ward, but a
locked ward nonetheless. Also, her sister used the three
day rule to get her out of there.
> > He found a brain tumor.
> >
> > None of the shrinks had her examined -- it took her sister's
> > intervention.
>
> What kind of hospital and what kind of shrinks are you talking about?
> Was your aunt evaluated by a psychiatrist?
Yes, she was "evaluated."
> > I'm not a doctor, but I suspect none of the current tests
> > can really tell us much unless there is a gross deformity
> > that shows up in MRIs or in blood work. Also, I understand
> > suicide runs in families, but I don't know anything about
> > this man's family background.
>
> There are plenty of non-invasive tests psychotherapists can apply if a
> medical condition is suspected. Any responsible psychotherapist will
> call for a medical consult if the bells go off.
What if the bells are broken, or badly trained, or
uninterested, or swamped?
theresa
It seems he stopped taking his medication because he feared
it was giving him kidney damage. Rightly or not, when
patients start fearing their pills, that is a big red flag
and the family should respond by taking them back to the
doctor.
MadCow57
Hopkins did not draw blood to rule out organic causes before they made a firm
diagnosis of incurable bi-polarism and told my family I would have to be
institutionalized for the rest of my life. They gave me Haldol, which
constricted my esophagus so I couldn't swallow. Then they bunged me into the
anorexia ward because I wouldn't eat.
At some point I was transferred to the University of Maryland Hospital
Geriatric Psychiatric Ward, which followed the Standards of Care, drew blood,
and discovered that I was on the verge of death from thyrotoxocosis. They
transferred me to the medical floor to be de-toxed from both the unnecessary
psych drugs and the high thyroid levels. I did in fact die - twice - but was
resuscitated.
The only mention of Hopkins in my U Md file says "no blood was drawn."
When my family finally got involved, they put me back in the psych ward where I
was treated kindly and taught to walk and write - until I managed to escape,
but that's another story.
I do not personally remember anything from the point when I was put in some
vehicle to be taken to the emergency room and the time I started coming out of
the coma. The exit hallucinations gradually merged with reality as I regained
consciousness. It was terribly confusing since I didn't know where I was or
why and was paralyzed on my entire right side. It's miserable to try to talk
and to hear the wrong word come out. But that all cleared up in a couple of
months. My right hand is about 90% of normal and my balance is occasionally
iffy, but the rest of me seems OK and will be fine as soon as the doctor
finishes tweaking my synthroid dosage. It seems like it's taking forever.
I tell you all this not as a bid for sympathy, which you always assume, but to
add to your anecdotal knowledge of what can happen to people when they
encounter the medical profession while they're helpless. It's a miracle that I
am alive at all since I was not only in the clutches of an arrogant idiot at
Hopkins, but did not have any family members willing to ask questions or
intervene. They were in too much of a hurry to divide up the stuff in my
apartment to call back and see how I was doing.
Anybody who continues to make fun of me can go fuck themselves, and I hope it
happens to you someday.
doc
>I tell you all this not as a bid for sympathy, which you always assume, but to
>add to your anecdotal knowledge of what can happen to people when they
>encounter the medical profession while they're helpless.
Once more, you are clueless. You have confused the medical
establishment with the medical profession. Doctors are, for the most
part, sincere and well-motivated individuals who are trying
desperately to alleviate human suffering.
Unfortunately, much of their time and resources are sucked up with
having to minister to the needs of affluent neurotics.
doc
>Anybody who continues to make fun of me can go fuck themselves, and I hope it
>happens to you someday.
It is not a prudent practice to make this much of a personal medical
history public information.
And that IS a professional opinion, Dolorous. You have countered
Harry's pesky little jibes by committing ritual hari-kari on the
Internet. Should your competency ever be questioned in the future,
this will surely come back to haunt you.
(And that is the last freaking time I'm going to offer you any advice
borne in solicitude and goodwill.)
King Daevid MacKenzie
theresa sez:
> It might, or sometimes there are underlying medical
> problems. He'd been depressed, and sometimes we are too
> quick to send such people to conselors rather than to MDs.
> I am thinking of the man who one day murdered his Mom and
> then climbed up that Tower at the U of Texas.
>
> The autopsy performed after the cop killed him showed a
> brain tumor.
...aah, yes, Charles Whitman, who inspired two noted pieces of art:
Harry Chapin's song "Sniper" and the brilliant Peter Bogdanovich film
TARGETS. Of the Chapin song, the less said the better (although "A
Better Place to Be," from the same album, SNIPER AND OTHER LOVE SONGS,
is a true masterpiece). As for TARGETS, while it truly was the last
great picture Boris Karloff appeared in, it also figures in my biggest
point of annoyance with Bogdanovich; the director used his book THE
KILLING OF THE UNICORN to attack several people for imagined involvement
in the murder of his one-time lover and protege (and sister of his
future wife), Dorothy Stratten. Among the targets of Bogdanovich's ire
was director Bob Fosse, for making a fictionalised film about Stratten's
life and murder, STAR 80. Problem was, Bogdanovich's complaints about
Fosse become hypocritical once one recalls that, in order to get his
first directorial credit, Bogdanovich himself did the same exact thing
-- fictionalising a horrifying tragedy in the news -- with TARGETS and
has yet to issue any sort of apology or even acknowledgment to the loved
ones of Whitman's victims...
...just for the record, the Whitman snipings also figure, though not
nearly as prominently, into Oliver Stone's NATURAL BORN KILLERS...
--
King Daevid MacKenzie, La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
http://ultimajock.blogspot.com
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even
passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears
and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run
it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will
be prevented from working at all!" - Mario Savio - 1964
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
MadCow57
Can't you read? It was thyrotoxocosis, not mental illness.
doc
>Can't you read? It was thyrotoxocosis, not mental illness.
I read it. And I stand by what I said. You were a fool to state all
that private medical information on the Internet.
doc
>Can't you read? It was thyrotoxocosis, not mental illness.
I'm finished with you, Dolorous. Whatever your motives or your
pathologies, you are just a ticking time bomb and I'm not going to
pour any more kerosene on a fire.
Good luck to you.
BuccaneerJuan
>
... and then there was that massive attack of crotch rot ...
Oh sorry. Too much detail? ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~
"When hatred calls, refuse delivery..."
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain