38-year mystery of who Carly Simon was referring to in the song, You're So Vain
Hoodoo
Published: Today
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2869512/Carly-Simon-ends-Youre-So-Vain-riddle.html
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00994/Song_380x223_994525j.jpg
Speculation in vain ... contenders for the subject of Carly's song
To hear the name revealed... [view video on webpage]
SINGER CARLY SIMON has finally ended a 38-year guessing game - by naming
the subject of hit You're So Vain.
The catty lyrics were believed to be aimed at an ex-boyfriend such as
MICK JAGGER, CAT STEVENS, KRIS KRISTOFFERSON or WARREN BEATTY.
But now the target has been revealed as gay producer DAVID GEFFEN, at
the time head of Carly's Elektra record label.
And rather than being angry about a failed relationship, Carly is
thought to have resented the effort he put into promoting rival JONI
MITCHELL.
Carly, 64, had always claimed in public that the song was a "composite"
of people she knew.
But she solved the riddle by whispering David's name BACKWARDS in a
reworked version of the 1972 song for her new album Never Been Gone, out
next week.
--
Canine leptospirosis can be a heartbreaker.
<http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/canine-leptospirosis.html>
Trout Mask Replica
Michael O'Connor
she would have lunch with the auction winner and tell them who she
wrote the song about? I'd hate to be that person today.
Hyfler/Rosner
"Michael O'Connor" <mpoco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c77d19f2-01e5-4f66...@g28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
We solved it a year a few years ago
BobF
[Default] On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:51:49 -0600, Hoodoo
<hoo...@spamcop.net> magnanimously proffered:
>Published: Today
>http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2869512/Carly-Simon-ends-Youre-So-Vain-riddle.html
>
>http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00994/Song_380x223_994525j.jpg
>Speculation in vain ... contenders for the subject of Carly's song
>
>To hear the name revealed... [view video on webpage]
I thought it was supposed to be James Taylor.
BTW - is it just me, or has anyone else listed to the video sound
track and found it impossible to tell what is being whispered when
it's played backwards - let alone hear David Geffen's name?
--
"But I'll bet you didn't know that pizza is an American invention!"
- From "The Sayings of Roy"
Hyfler/Rosner
"Hyfler/Rosner" <rel...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:hm9gnc$g4d$1...@reader2.panix.com...
I mean "here."
What's happening to me?
BobF
[Default] On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:08:27 -0500, "Hyfler/Rosner"
<rel...@rcn.com> magnanimously proffered:
Must have passed me by. Who was it that AO pegged as the person?
--
> Why are we joining in morning, and not in afternoon or evening?
Because I snore when I'm awake.
Matthew Kruk
news:7uqvpn...@mid.individual.net...
> ...
> I thought it was supposed to be James Taylor.
Carly and James didn't break up until long after. Actually, I don't
think they were an "item" at the time of You're So Vain. Mockingbird
(1974?) was the first song they did together.
Matthew Kruk
I don't remember that.
Brad Ferguson
> By RICHARD MORIARTY
>
> Published: Today
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2869512/Carly-Simon-ends-Youre-So-Vain-riddle.html
>
> http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00994/Song_380x223_994525j.jpg
> Speculation in vain ... contenders for the subject of Carly's song
>
> To hear the name revealed... [view video on webpage]
>
>
> SINGER CARLY SIMON has finally ended a 38-year guessing game - by naming
> the subject of hit You're So Vain.
>
> The catty lyrics were believed to be aimed at an ex-boyfriend such as
> MICK JAGGER, CAT STEVENS, KRIS KRISTOFFERSON or WARREN BEATTY.
>
> But now the target has been revealed as gay producer DAVID GEFFEN, at
> the time head of Carly's Elektra record label.
>
> And rather than being angry about a failed relationship, Carly is
> thought to have resented the effort he put into promoting rival JONI
> MITCHELL.
>
> Carly, 64, had always claimed in public that the song was a "composite"
> of people she knew.
>
> But she solved the riddle by whispering David's name BACKWARDS in a
> reworked version of the 1972 song for her new album Never Been Gone, out
> next week.
>
> Read more:
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2869512/Carly-Simon-ends-Youre-So-Vain-riddle.html#ixzz0gfzeaN7K
This is getting more and more confusing, with word that it might not be Geffen after all, and that Beatty's name is also in the song:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/26/david-geffen-is-youre-so_n_478110.html
Hyfler/Rosner
"Matthew Kruk" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:X%Xhn.288187
>>
>> I mean "here."
>
> I don't remember that.
William Donaldson -- here's the Telegraph obit and the whole
discussion we had about it.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00994/Song_380x223_994525j...
> Speculation in vain ... contenders for the subject of Carly's song
>
> To hear the name revealed... [view video on webpage]
>
> SINGER CARLY SIMON has finally ended a 38-year guessing game - by naming
> the subject of hit You're So Vain.
>
> The catty lyrics were believed to be aimed at an ex-boyfriend such as
> MICK JAGGER, CAT STEVENS, KRIS KRISTOFFERSON or WARREN BEATTY.
>
> But now the target has been revealed as gay producer DAVID GEFFEN, at
> the time head of Carly's Elektra record label.
>
> And rather than being angry about a failed relationship, Carly is
> thought to have resented the effort he put into promoting rival JONI
> MITCHELL.
>
> Carly, 64, had always claimed in public that the song was a "composite"
> of people she knew.
>
> But she solved the riddle by whispering David's name BACKWARDS in a
> reworked version of the 1972 song for her new album Never Been Gone, out
> next week.
>
>
> --
> Canine leptospirosis can be a heartbreaker.
> <http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/canine-leptospirosis.html>
>
> Trout Mask Replica
Most of Joni Mitchell's stuff is a:
shtink and a schmell
wif a shtink and a schmell mit ze hell.
Loki
That is what I remember too. There was some money raising thing for
Martha's Vineyard at which she sold the "secret" to some shmoe for a
few hundred K and he had to sign a guarantee to keep it a secret, or
something like that.
Loki
After posting the above, I did a bit of research...
http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.html
Possible Dreams Auction - 2003
Carly's participation in this year's charity auction created an
intense media buzz when she offered to reveal the identity of the
person(s) she had in mind when she penned the song "You're So Vain" to
the highest bidder, but only after they agreed to abide by a
confidentiality agreement.
Shortly after this news was printed in People magazine, the Associated
Press picked up the story and newspapers, television and radio shows
around the world immediately followed.
The news scrollers on all the major cable networks began carrying
Carly's name across the bottom of the television screen. MSNBC.com
conducted a viewer's poll where Beatty's name earned 54% of the vote.
Matt Lauer reviewed the list of usual suspects with Anthony DeCurtis
(of Rolling Stone magazine) on The Today Show. Roger Friedman of Fox
News went on record with his firm opinion that song was about Warren
Beatty. The BBC's Up All Night radio show interviewed Carly fans live
from the US to get their opinion on who the song was written about and
why this mystery has such long lasting appeal.
On August 4th, the gavel cracked at $50,000 for Carly's "Dream
Secret". The winner (Dick Ebersol - an NBC executive) and nine of his
friends will join Carly at her home in a few weeks, at which time she
will sing You're So Vain while her guests enjoy peanut butter and
jelly sandwiches and vodka on the rocks. At midnight, Mr. Ebersol
alone will learn Carly's closely guarded secret.
"Carly told me that I could offer up to the entire world, a clue as to
what she'll tell me when we have this night in about two weeks. And
the clue is: the letter 'E' is in the person's name." Dick Ebersol on
NBC's Today Show - Aug. 5th, 2003
Matthew Kruk
Thanks. Interesting.
robertpny
is was just a damned good pop song that spurred some curiosity which,
in turn, launched a self-propelled marketing bonanza and made the song
an even bigger sensation that anyone could have expected.
I mean, 38 years later people are still speculating. What if it really
isn't about anyone at all???
La N
Indeed. And I see that even in 2005, the person of "Roy" factored in the
thread ... heh
- nilita
BobF
[Default] On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:29:41 GMT, "La N"
<nilita20...@yahoo.com> magnanimously proffered:
Not surpisingly, Roy has been an object of derision for many years.
--
"You only saw me in the waiting room because they called you in as
the more handsome guy previously, and they shook their heads quietly
and sadly about you as I walked in... "
Bill Schenley
>
> > > I don't remember that.
>
> > pegged as the person?
>
> that it might not be Geffen after all, and that Beatty's
> name is also in the song:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/26/david-geffen-is-youre-so_n_478110.html
The song is about William Donaldson.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/msg/afd9b47aa447afe9?hl=en
From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
throw into the mix.
james
Brad Ferguson
<nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
He probably thought the thread was about him.
Brad Ferguson
<rel...@rcn.com> wrote:
Thanks to you and Bill for that. I'd forgotten.
Hoodoo
(Central Standard Time), spoke thusly:
> BTW - is it just me, or has anyone else listed to the video sound
> track and found it impossible to tell what is being whispered when
> it's played backwards - let alone hear David Geffen's name?
I listened to it several times, and during the second playback I paid
special interest after the on-screen prompt for the back-masking, and
couldn't hear it.
In response to the other comments regarding Simon selling the secret at
auction, she was a guest on Howard Stern's Sirius radio program and
allegedly told him in private.
Here's an except:
http://howardstern.com/rundown.hs?d=1213848000
WHO�S SO VAIN?
The Howard Stern Show for June 19, 2008
Howard then demanded to know who �You're So Vain� was about, but
Carly maintained her silence: �The answer would be so uninteresting to
you.� Carly then put her nerves aside and performed the song live �
Howard loved the arrangement, so Carly explained it was to accommodate
her aging vocal range and boredom. Before she left, Carly promised to
tell Howard who �You�re So Vain� was about off the air and when they
returned from the break, Howard reveled in knowing he was one of only a
handful of people who knew the secret.
Hyfler/Rosner
"Brad Ferguson" <thir...@frXOXed.net> wrote in message
news:260220102314320269%thir...@frXOXed.net...
Should I post it on Twitter or Facebook? Get some press for
AO?
Matthew Kruk
Go for it.
Hoodoo
GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time), spoke thusly:
> The song is about William Donaldson.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/msg/afd9b47aa447afe9?hl=en
>
> From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson, but no matter how
> many other Micks, Warrens, Kris Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or
> whom ever you throw into the mix.
After reading the full thread at GoogleGroups in response to the
Donaldson obit, I do not feel that he is the mystery man.
The greatest fault I find regarding Donaldson is the lyric line, "Then
you flew your Learjet up to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the
sun." In the Donaldson obit it is stated that, "In 1971 Donaldson fled
wife and creditors and left for Ibiza, where he spent his last �2,000 on
a glass-bottomed boat, hoping to make money out of tourists. By the end
of the season, he had no money left and had to sell the boat
for �250." The statement makes me think that, prior to fleeing to Ibiza,
he probably couldn't afford to own or rent a Lear Jet, especially for
traveling on a whim. Although, paying for such 'whim-travel' is a sure
way to reach bankruptcy in a literal hurry if one does not have the
financial wherewithal to maintain such luxury.
The obit also includes mention that, 1) he was set to elope with Jackie
Bernard around 1961, and, 2) several years later he moved into a flat
with actress Sarah Miles. Neither of those situations make it seem like
he was capable of living a lavish lifestyle allowing ownership, or
possibly even rental, of a Lear jet and whim-travel with one.
Another literal point in the lyric line is that the plane was flown "up
to Nova Scotia" which infers the flight began somewhere in the Eastern
part of the USA (or possibly, the Western part). For Donaldson with an
apparent home base in England, flying "up to Nova Scotia" seems like an
odd statement unless the comment was merely artistic license.
Upon viewing the entry at
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_So_Vain>, the following reference
is made:
The line, "I hear you went up to Saratoga and your horse naturally won,"
refers to the Saratoga Race Course meeting held in late July, August,
and early September in Saratoga Springs, New York. The meeting is known
to be frequented by the rich and famous of New York and other cities on
the East Coast.
Although it wouldn't be an impossibility for Donaldson to own a
racehorse which competed within the USA, I feel it is more likely
improbable that the lyric line refers to him in this regard.
After reading both this discussion thread and the Donaldson obit thread,
as well as the Wiki entry, I feel that there is no lone mystery man. It
seems to me that Simon's repeated admission that the mystery man is a
composite of various individuals is the real answer.
But hey, in the whole scope of things, it doesn't much matter.
Louis Epstein
:> > > > We solved it here a year a few years ago
:>
:> > > I don't remember that.
:>
:> > Must have passed me by. Who was it that AO
:> > pegged as the person?
:>
:> This is getting more and more confusing, with word
:> that it might not be Geffen after all, and that Beatty's
:> name is also in the song:
:> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/26/david-geffen-is-youre-so_n_478110.html
:
: The song is about William Donaldson.
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/msg/afd9b47aa447afe9?hl=en
:
: From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
Where is the E in his name?
: but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
: Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
: throw into the mix.
Other sites speculate about other Davids (Bowie,Cassidy...again no E).
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Bill Schenley
>
> Where is the E in his name?
>
> : but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
> : Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
> : throw into the mix.
>
> Other sites speculate about other Davids (Bowie,Cassidy...again no E).
When she said there was an "E" in his name,
that included all the usual suspects ... except
William Donaldson ... Unless, of course, you
considered Mr. Donaldson's full name ...
Charles William Donaldson.
Brad Ferguson
<rel...@rcn.com> wrote:
Yes. FWIW I think the reasoning is solid.
R H Draney
Didn't she later release a further clue, namely that there was also a T?...that
removed only Jagger from the list, so not a lot of people paid attention to
it....r
--
"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly."
- Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle
Louis Epstein
:> : From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
That would qualify him,I suppose.
But I wonder if the song is really about "no one".
BobF
[Default] On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:28:23 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<l...@main.put.com> magnanimously proffered:
>Bill Schenley <stra...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>:> : From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
>:>
>:> Where is the E in his name?
>:>
>:> : but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
>:> : Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
>:> : throw into the mix.
>:>
>:> Other sites speculate about other Davids (Bowie,Cassidy...again no E).
>:
>: When she said there was an "E" in his name,
>: that included all the usual suspects ... except
>: William Donaldson ... Unless, of course, you
>: considered Mr. Donaldson's full name ...
>: Charles William Donaldson.
>
>That would qualify him,I suppose.
>
>But I wonder if the song is really about "no one".
That would mean that all our guesses were in vain.
--
Healthwatch: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (leukemia)
> When Soupy Sales legally changed his name in 1957, was that not *his*
> real name from then on?
Idiot boy: Stage names, as you pointed out so haughtily yourself, are legitimate,
and for better publicity.
What's wrong? Can't remember what you just posted?
Do you think people would want to see an actor act with the name:
Marion (Robert) Morrison? [not related to Jim]
Now, there's a name begging to be changed!
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000078/bio
> Or is that case different? And if it's not
> different, why not?
Idiot boy: Go back and read your own post for the answer.
Jabbar is his made-up name he wanted to be known by--but
he will always be Lew Alcindor.
>
>
> Not since 1971, he hasn't. Your prejudice is blinding you, and not for
> the first time.
Idot boy: I'm not prejudiced against peaceful Muslims/Arabs, etc.
Wrong again, Brad, and not for the first time in labeling
me 'prejudiced' without knowing me.
Stick that adjective about me in your ear.
> Also, his so-called "real name" is Ferdinand Alcindor Jr. Once again,
> you lack facts.
Idiot boy: So, he was living a falsehood when he said his first name was
'Lew'.
What was wrong with Ferdinand Alcindor that he was so ashamed of he
wouldn't use it?
Kris Baker
"BobF" <b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote in message
>
> [Default] On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:28:23 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
> <l...@main.put.com> magnanimously proffered:
>
>>Bill Schenley <stra...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>:> : From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
>>:>
>>:> Where is the E in his name?
>>:>
>>:> : but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
>>:> : Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
>>:> : throw into the mix.
>>:>
>>:> Other sites speculate about other Davids (Bowie,Cassidy...again no E).
>>:
>>: When she said there was an "E" in his name,
>>: that included all the usual suspects ... except
>>: William Donaldson ... Unless, of course, you
>>: considered Mr. Donaldson's full name ...
>>: Charles William Donaldson.
>>
>>That would qualify him,I suppose.
>>
>>But I wonder if the song is really about "no one".
>
>
> That would mean that all our guesses were in vain.
....or she's talking about herself, when she says "You're So Vain".
It's one of the biggest PR ploys ever, IMO. New hints, every
time she has more music coming out.
Kris
Loki
wrote:
>Bill Schenley filted:
>>
>>> : From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson,
>>>
>>> Where is the E in his name?
>>>
>>> : but no matter how many other Micks, Warrens, Kris
>>> : Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom ever you
>>> : throw into the mix.
>>>
>>> Other sites speculate about other Davids (Bowie,Cassidy...again no E).
>>
>>When she said there was an "E" in his name,
>>that included all the usual suspects ... except
>>William Donaldson ... Unless, of course, you
>>considered Mr. Donaldson's full name ...
>>Charles William Donaldson.
>
>Didn't she later release a further clue, namely that there was also a T?...that
>removed only Jagger from the list, so not a lot of people paid attention to
>it....r
As I recall, the next clue was that he also had an A in his name,
effectively removing no one.
R H Draney
That would have knocked out Kristofferson....r
Bill Schenley
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/msg/afd9b47aa447afe9?hl=en
>
> > From verse to verse the song just oozes Donaldson, but no matter how
> > many other Micks, Warrens, Kris Kristoffersons, James Taylors, or whom
> > ever you throw into the mix.
> After reading the full thread at GoogleGroups in response to the
> Donaldson obit, I do not feel that he is the mystery man.
Besides the letter E, Simon also revealed the subject of the
song also included the letters A and R.
> The greatest fault I find regarding Donaldson is the lyric line, "Then you
> flew your Learjet up to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the sun."
> In the Donaldson obit it is stated that, "In 1971 Donaldson fled wife and
> creditors and left for Ibiza,
His relationship with Carly Simon began in 1965, when
she was 20, and ended before she was 21. In 1965
he was still considered somewhat wealthy from the
inheritance from his father. And over the next few years
he would inherit even more money when his aunt died.
Carly Simon was long gone by 1971.
"You walked into the party
Like you were walking onto a yacht
Your hat strategically dipped below one eye
Your scarf it was apricot
You had one eye in the mirror
As you watched yourself gavotte
And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner
They'd be your partner, and ..."
From the Telegraph obit:
"He then concentrated on perfecting his skills as an eccentric
nuisance, wearing his straw hat at a facetious angle ..."
He was also known as a serial adulterer.
"You had me several years ago
When I was still quite naive ..."
According to Donaldson, he was the one who ...
deflowered the young Miss Simon. "Naive" sounds
like a euphemism for virgin.
"Well, you said that we made such a pretty pair
And that you would never leave
But you gave away the things you loved
And one of them was me ..."
He dumped her.
"Well, you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not, you're with
Some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend
Wife of a close friend, and ..."
> The obit also includes mention that, 1) he was set to elope with Jackie
> Bernard around 1961,
Jeffrey Bernard, the journalist, and the husband of Jackie
Ellis (Bernard), was one of his closest friends. Also,
it was during this time, according to Terence Blacker,
who wrote "You Cannot Live as I Have Lived and Not
End Up Like This: The Thoroughly Disgraceful Life
and Times of Willie Donaldson," Donaldson enjoyed
several friendships with London's underworld (notably,
Frankie 'Mad Frank' Fraser).
> ... and, 2) several years later he moved into a flat with actress Sarah
> Miles. Neither of those situations make it seem like he was capable of
> living a lavish lifestyle allowing ownership, or possibly even rental, of
> a Lear jet and whim-travel with one.
He went bankrupt several times, and, according to him,
he was incapable of handling money.
Well, I hear you went up to Saratoga
And your horse naturally won
Then you flew your Lear jet up to Nova Scotia
To see the total eclipse of the sun
> Another literal point in the lyric line is that the plane was flown "up to
> Nova Scotia" which infers the flight began somewhere in the Eastern part
> of the USA (or possibly, the Western part). For Donaldson with an apparent
> home base in England, flying "up to Nova Scotia" seems like an odd
> statement unless the comment was merely artistic license.
I don't have an answer to the Saratoga/Nova Scotia thing.
> After reading both this discussion thread and the Donaldson obit thread,
> as well as the Wiki entry, I feel that there is no lone mystery man. It
> seems to me that Simon's repeated admission that the mystery man is a
> composite of various individuals is the real answer.
In an interview, Simon said she started the song years
before it was released. It could be a composite ...
But if it is, I'd still bet the farm it started out being about
Willie Donaldson.
> But hey, in the whole scope of things, it doesn't much matter.
Hoodoo
GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time), spoke thusly:
> In an interview, Simon said she started the song years before it was
> released. It could be a composite ... But if it is, I'd still bet
> the farm it started out being about Willie Donaldson.
Howard Stern brought up this topic during his radio show this morning.
He started that he had completely forgotten what Simon told him.
Howard's producer, Gary Dell'Abate later stated that Howard told him
what Simon said and he recalled that it was a composite of individuals.
>> But hey, in the whole scope of things, it doesn't much matter.
> I agree with what Kris Baker wrote:
> "It's one of the biggest PR ploys ever, IMO. New hints, every time
> she has more music coming out."
It didn't register with me until this morning. I now agree
wholeheartedly with that assessment.