OT: A Nobel for Dylan
Bob Champ
Still, it's interesting enough that I thought Obiteers might want to
chime in with their own views.
Bob Champ
Dylan's Nobel Nomination Sparks Debate
By MATTIAS KAREN, Associated Press Writer
STOCKHOLM, Sweden - How many roads must a man walk down, before you
call him a ... Nobel Prize-winning songwriter? It's a question being
asked increasingly in literary circles, as the annual debate over who
should win the Nobel Prize in literature — to be announced Thursday —
tosses out a familiar, but surprising, candidate: Bob Dylan.
While many music critics agree that Dylan is among the most profound
songwriters in modern music, his repeated nomination for the Nobel
Prize has raised a vexing question among literary authorities: Should
song lyrics qualify for literature's most prestigious award?
Christopher Ricks, co-director of the Editorial Institute at Boston
University — and an avid Dylan fan who has written scholarly papers on
the songwriter's work — said the question is "tricky."
"I don't think there's anybody that uses words better than he does,"
said Ricks, the author of highly regarded works of literary criticism
such as "The Force of Poetry" and "Allusion to the Poets," as well as
books on T.S. Eliot, Lord Alfred Tennyson and John Keats.
"But I think his is an art of a mixed medium," Ricks said. "I think
the question would not be whether he deserves (the Nobel Prize) as an
honor to his art. The question would be whether his art can be
described as literature."
It definitely can, said Gordon Ball, an author and literature
professor at the Virginia Military Institute in Lexington, Va. — who
has nominated Dylan every year since 1996.
"Poetry and music are linked," Ball said. "And Dylan has helped
strengthen that relationship, like the troubadours of old."
The Nobel Prize in literature is given out annually by the 18 lifetime
members of the 218-year-old Swedish Academy. Candidates can be
nominated by members of other literary academies and institutions,
literature professors and Nobel laureates.
Each year, the Swedish Academy receives about 350 nominations for
about 200 different candidates, which is narrowed down to about five
finalists. The winner is announced in October. The finalists, except
for the winner, are not revealed for 50 years.
Speculation in the literary world is that the 2004 winner will be a
woman, something that has not happened since 1996, when Polish poet
Wislawa Szymborska was honored.
Some names emerge time and again, including Lebanese poet Ali Ahmad
Said, also known as Adonis, and several women, including Danish poet
Inger Christensen, novelists Margaret Atwood of Canada, Algerian Assia
Djebar, American Joyce Carol Oates and Britain's Doris Lessing.
Ball said he first nominated Dylan after the writer Allen Ginsberg
urged him to do so. Ginsberg, a Beat poet whose literary circle
included Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady, nominated Dylan in 1996.
"Dylan is a major American bard and minstrel of the 20th century" who
deserves the award for his "mighty and universal powers," Ginsberg
wrote in his nomination letter, which Ball read to The Associated
Press.
The literary value of Dylan's texts are also supported by The Norton
Introduction to Literature, a textbook used in American high schools
and universities, which includes the lyrics to Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine
Man."
University of Virginia professor Alison Booth, who co-edited the
anthology, said she doesn't "have any trouble at all considering
(Dylan) for a literary interpretation."
"Literature has historically been defined very broadly," Booth said.
"I don't think we're testing some radical limits of literature by
putting that in."
Several collections of Dylan's lyrics have also been published as
books.
Still, most Nobel watchers say it's unlikely the Swedish Academy —
traditionally drawn to novelists and poets who are often out of the
mainstream — will expand the scope of the prize to include
songwriters.
"If so, it would be in a fit of marvelous free-mindedness," said
Svante Weyler, head of one of Sweden's largest publishing houses,
Norstedts. "It would be very surprising."
But not entirely unprecedented.
In 1997, the prize went to Italian playwright Dario Fo, whose works
also need to be performed to be fully appreciated, some say.
And when Winston Churchill received it in 1953, for his historical and
biographical writings, the academy also cited his "brilliant oratory"
skills.
While the academy never discusses individual candidates, Carola
Hermelin at the academy's Nobel Library said songwriters are not
excluded from the prize.
"Song lyrics can be good poetry," she said. "It depends on their
literary quality."
But Weyler said he was skeptical about including songwriters.
"Then you're categorizing everything that includes words as
literature," he said. "Literature should not have to be read by the
author for it to be good."
Terrymelin
>
The mere idea is a joke. Of course, how can one take seriously a prize that was
never awarded to Proust, James, Joyce, Greene, Borges, Roth, Updike and was
awarded to such mediocrities ar Fo, Saramago, Neruda, Morrison, and Buck?
Terry Ellsworth
Opus the Penguin
>>This looks to be one of those perennial debates that go nowhere.
>>
>
> The mere idea is a joke.
Those who both love literature and know Dylan's work tend not to think
so. I majored in English and have a healthy knowledge of and respect
for all sorts of literature. I did not become familiar with Bob Dylan
until about four years ago. I have been consistently impressed by his
work. He's one of the best poets of the second half of the 20th
Century.
> Of course, how can one take seriously a
> prize that was never awarded to Proust, James, Joyce, Greene,
> Borges, Roth, Updike and was awarded to such mediocrities ar Fo,
> Saramago, Neruda, Morrison, and Buck?
That's a valid point that doesn't say anything one way or the other
about Dylan's candidacy. I tend to think Dylan's name is more likely to
be placed in the first list of authors you mention rather than the
second.
--
Opus the Penguin
Nobody reads my sig
Jim Beaver
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041006165227...@mb-m18.aol.com...
They gave Van Morrison the Nobel Prize? Cool.
Jim Beaver
James Neibaur
robertc...@yahoo.com wrote on 10/6/04 3:34 PM:
> While many music critics agree that Dylan is among the most profound
> songwriters in modern music, his repeated nomination for the Nobel
> Prize has raised a vexing question among literary authorities: Should
> song lyrics qualify for literature's most prestigious award?
Sure -- and perhaps John Lennon could be next.
JN
James Neibaur
jumb...@prodigy.spam wrote on 10/6/04 5:01 PM:
>> was
>> awarded to such mediocrities ar Fo, Saramago, Neruda, Morrison, and Buck?
>
> They gave Van Morrison the Nobel Prize? Cool.
Oh, geez, I thought John Wayne might've gotten one.
JN
Terrymelin
>
>Jim Beaver
>
No, Jim Morrison.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Those who both love literature and know Dylan's work tend not to think
>so.
I know both and I don't think so. Before Dylan there would be about 500 other
writers in the world who would be more deserving of the Nobel Prize.
>He's one of the best poets of the second half of the 20th
>Century.
Considering the competition that's not really saying much, is it?
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>
>JN
>
Johnny Mercer beats either.
Terry Ellsworth
James Neibaur
terry...@aol.com wrote on 10/6/04 5:16 PM:
He was great, as were Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Lorenz Hart, Ira Gershwin,
etc. But Dylan and Lennon offered insights that went beyond much of the
song lyrics that preceeded them.
I think we've come along far enough now to start accepting the contributions
of people like Dylan and Lennon as being -- well, for lack of a better term
--- poetic.
JN
Terrymelin
>etc. But Dylan and Lennon offered insights that went beyond much of the
>song lyrics that preceeded them.
>
I just don't agree. It's much ado about nothing. I suppose if I were on dope I
could produce the same kind of "genius."
Terry Ellsworth
Harry Krause
There's no evidence you could ever produce anything of merit.
--
"...vice president (Cheney), I'm surprised to hear him talk about
records. When he was one of 435 members of the United States House, he
was one of 10 to vote against Head Start, one of four to vote against
banning plastic weapons that can pass through metal detectors. He voted
against the Department of Education. He voted against funding for
Meals on Wheels for seniors. He voted against a holiday for Martin
Luther King. He voted against a resolution calling for the release of
Nelson Mandela in South Africa. It's amazing to hear him criticize
either my record or John Kerry's."
- Senator John Edwards, 10/05/04
James Neibaur
terry...@aol.com wrote on 10/6/04 6:52 PM:
>I suppose if I were on dope I
> could produce the same kind of "genius."
Yeah, because those old pre-rock songwriters never touched the stuff.
You know better than that, Terry.
JN
James Neibaur
at r...@att.net wrote on 10/7/04 1:00 AM:
> You could also make the case for the other half of John Lennon--Paul
> McCartney!
> After all, maybe Paul wrote most of the lyrics while John wrote the
> music [*].
> Only those two (and maybe Yoko) know for sure who-wrote-which-part of
> their great songs!
There are many books (I have two myself) that go through every one of their
collaborations and indicate who wrote what. Most of them were written by
either-or, but both names appear (e.g. Hey Jude is Paul, You're Gonna Lose
That Girl is John, etc.)
JN
doc
berlin.de:
> There's no evidence you could ever produce anything of merit.
>
Well, at least Krause doesn't use his sig line to perpetuate blatant lies
and calumnies, you arrogant, moronic boil on the thigh of humanity.
Bill Schenley
> that go nowhere. Still, it's interesting enough that
> I thought Obiteers might want to chime in with
> their own views.
> Dylan's Nobel Nomination Sparks Debate
FROM: http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/10/06/dylan/index.html
My first time with Dylan
Johnny Cash, Joan Baez, Cher, Allen Ginsberg, Jimmy Buffett, Andy
Warhol and others on their initial meetings with the folk legend.
Compiled by Dana Cook
Oct. 6, 2004 | Editor's Note: A Martin Scorsese-directed documentary
of Bob Dylan will appear early next year, followed shortly by a biopic
from "Far From Heaven" director Todd Haynes, starring seven actors --
including a woman and an 11-year-old black boy -- each portraying a
period in the singer's development. Officially, the prolonged
retrospective of Dylan kicks off this week with his own "Chronicles:
Volume 1," the first memoir in what will be a series. But before all
that, Dana Cook looks back and finds what others have said about him.
Judy Collins, folksinger
"At my feet; lost soul"
"Bob Dylan was singing at one of the clubs in nearby Cripple Creek
[Colo.] that summer, and one night he came to the Gilded Garter to
hear me and the rock-and-roll band. Whenever we meet now, he says,
'Remember that night I sat at your feet?'" (1959)
"I was hired at Gerdes, on West Fourth Street in New York.
"... I met up with Bob Dylan again. Dressed in sloppy clothes, with
the funny railroad hat and a drink in front of him, grinning at me in
the mirror across the bar at Gerdes, hunched over like a bum off the
street, slouching up to the stage, he looked like a lost soul. We
talked about Colorado and Minnesota. We were both a long way from
home." (1960)
(From "Trust Your Heart: An Autobiography," by Judy Collins)
Ronald Radosh, journalist and historian
"A young Woody Guthrie"
"One day, a young kid, very thin but with traces of baby fat on him,
came knocking at our door, carrying a guitar and little else. He
appeared to be just coming out of innocence. He had got my name, he
said, from Carl Granich, Michael Gold's son, who was a friend and
awesome guitar picker from the young Communist circle in New York
City. He had just arrived in Madison [Wis.] by bus. 'I need a place to
stay,' he said. 'Can you put me up?' With only one room, this was not
possible, so I sent the kid -- his name was Bob Dylan, he told me --
to the apartment shared by my friends on Mifflin Street. Bobby stayed
for a few weeks, a stopover before he set out to find Woody Gurthrie
in New York.
"It seemed to me that Dylan was a young Woody Guthrie: he sounded and
played like Woody, and wore a workingman's cap that he had copied from
one Guthrie wore in a famous picture. As he acknowledged in an
interview years later, he was a 'virtual Woody Guthrie jukebox.' Bob
would come out to join us on spring afternoons on the Student Union
terrace, where we would sit on the lawn, look at the girls, and
intermittently pick and sing. One day we got into the ultimate 'what
are you going to do when you grow up' conversation. Dylan looked at me
earnestly and said, with a tone of complete assurance, 'I'm going to
be as big a star as Elvis Presley.' I recall giving him a rather
skeptical response, but Bob responded, 'No, you'll see. I'll play the
same and even bigger arenas. I know it.'" (1961)
(From "Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the
Leftover Left," by Ronald Radosh)
John Phillips, rock musician
"Worked at his 'look'"
"We [The Journeymen] were on a bill with a scruffy, anemic-looking kid
who had been kicking around the Village. This was his first paid gig.
He looked pale and fragile, like he had just gotten over
mononucleosis, but his audiences were spellbound. He sang with an
angry, nasal whine and seemed to work at his 'look': tousled hair,
rumpled shirt, jeans, bots, cap, the watchful, restless squint. When
we had met him backstage before the show [band member] Lightnin' was
helping him tune his guitar. There were all kinds of wild stories
going around about the guy. All we knew was that he was from Minnesota
and went by the name of Bob Dylan." (New York, 1961)
(From "Papa John: A Music Legend's Shattering Journey Through Sex,
Drugs, and Rock 'n' Roll," by John Phillips)
Sylvia Tyson, folk singer
"Great blotter"
"It always struck me as ironic that Dylan became a cult hero, because
when we first knew him [at the Newport Folk Festival] he was nervous,
overweight, and penniless, and he used to hit on girls in the clubs,
not to make it with them, but just to sleep on their floors. He was
like a great blotter, soaking up everything from anyone who was any
good, and his great talent was in the special way he put it all
together. Also, he began to write his own material, and that was a
revelation to everyone. We [Ian and Sylvia] began to think, 'Hey, we
can do that too.'" (1961)
From "I Never Sold My Saddle," by Ian Tyson with Colin Escott)
Ian Tyson, folk and cowboy singer
"Sponge"
"No one hanging around the New York folk scene in 1961 and 1962 could
believe what happened to Bob Dylan. Bobby Zimmerman from bleakest
Minnesota took a new name from the prolix Welsh poet, a new voice from
Woody Guthrie, and songs from anywhere. He possessed an infinite
capacity for reinventing himself, then living the lie he had created
in a very Will Jamesian way. Albert Grossman, as adept as anyone at
image creation, helped to manufacture Bob Dylan from Bobby Zimmerman,
then wrapped him in a enigma.
"Dylan was an obnoxious little jerk in many ways. He crashed on
couches around town. He was always bummin' stuff. I never thought he'd
make it like he did. He gave us [Ian and Sylvia] a song, 'Tomorrow Is
a Long Time,' for our second album. Then he became so prolific when he
was on amphetamines. He was just crankin' them out. He absorbed
everything like a sponge. He got away with singing out-of-tune and
playing out-of-tune. He got away with it, but he ain't gonna get my
eighteen dollars at the door."
(From "I Never Sold My Saddle," by Ian Tyson with Colin Escott)
Joan Baez, folk singer
"Urban hillbilly"
"I first saw Bob Dylan in 1961 at Gerde's Folk City in Greenwich
Village. He was not overly impressive. He looked like an urban
hillbilly, with hair short around the ears and curly on top. Bouncing
from foot to foot as he played, he seemed dwarfed by the guitar. His
jacket was rusty leather and two sizes too small. His cheeks were
still softened with an undignified amount of baby fat. But his mouth
was a killer: soft, sensuous, childish, nervous, and reticent. He spat
out the words to his own songs. They were original and refreshing, if
blunt and jagged. He was absurd, new, and grubby beyond words. When
his set was over, he was ushered to my table and the historic event of
our meeting was under way. He stood there nervously, mumbling
politely, smiling and looking amused. I sipped my Shirley Temple,
feeling like the old dowager of the folk scene ... There was no
question that this boy was exceptional and that he touched people, but
he had only just begun to touch me." (New York)
(From "And a Voice to Sing With: A Memoir," by Joan Baez)
Nat Hentoff, journalist
"Publicity conscious"
"Margot [his wife] and I were living in Greenwich Village, around the
corner from Gerde's Folk City, an informal gathering place for folk
singers -- both beginners and the more or less professional. A regular
performer was a youngster who always wore a leather cap, blue jeans,
and well-worn desert boots. Born Robert Zimmerman in the bleak mining
town of Hibbing, Minnesota, he was known in Greenwich Village as Bob
Dylan.
"... I agreed with a Missouri folk singer who said Dylan's music sound
was like that of 'a dog with his leg caught in barbed wire.'" "I wrote
about Dylan in other publications [besides the New Yorker], and I'd
occasionally see him on the street in the Village. Invariably he'd ask
about something I was writing about him, 'When's it coming out? When's
it coming out?' At the same time, he would say to others that he
wasn't the least interested in what was written about him." (New York,
1961)
(From "Speaking Freely: A Memoir," by Nat Hentoff)
Richie Havens, folk-rock singer
"His song"
"Finally I had the song.
"So I took the three crumpled-up pieces of paper back to the Broadway
Central and spent eight hours a day for three days learning the
thirteen verses and working out my own arrangement.
"... I got to sing at what I would call my first 'legitimate'
coffeehouse where people like Odetta and Pete Seeger got to play ...
The audience responded wildly with almost deafening applause. A few
minutes later, standing in the dark behind the audience, a young man
stepped up in front of me with tears coming down his face. He was
moved.
"'Oh, man,' he said, choking on his emotion, 'that ... that ... that
was my favorite version of that song.' I could barely say thank you
before I had to get away from him too. I wasn't used to this kind of
reaction. 'Way too heavy for me,' I whispered under my breath, heading
for the dressing room, which was downstairs.
"Dave Van Ronk was blocking my way, waiting for me.
"'Hey, man, do you know who that was who came over to you just now?'
"I didn't have a clue. 'No, I don't,' I answered.
"'He wrote the song you just sang,' he said.
"'No, he didn't,' I said. 'Gene Michaels wrote that song.' I was so
sure.
"'The hell he did! The guy you just met wrote that song,' Van Ronk
said firmly. And he was right; he was right.
"Hell of a way to meet Bob Dylan!
"For a whole month, I'd been telling everybody that somebody else
wrote his song and then on my first night in a real coffeehouse, I get
the chance to tell Dylan himself that somebody else wrote 'A Hard
Rain's a-Gonna Fall.'" (New York, 1963)
(From "They Can't Hide Us Anymore," by Richie Havens with Steve
Davidowitz)
Allen Ginsberg, poet
"Where hearts and heads were"
"I first met Bob at a party at the Eighth Street Book Shop, and he
invited me to go on tour with him. I ended up not going, but, boy, if
I'd known then what I know now, I'd have gone like a flash. He'd
probably have put me onstage with him." (New York, early 1960s)
"Dylan came to town for his West Coast tour. I saw a lot of him, and
he gave me thirty or forty tickets for opening night. A fantastic
assemblage occupied the first few rows of Dylan's concert: a dozen
poets, myself, Peter [Orlovsky], [Lawrence] Ferlinghetti, Neal
[Cassady], and I think [Ken] Kesey, Michael McClure; several
Buddhists; a whole corps of Hell's Angels, led by Sonny Barger,
Freewheelin' Frank and Tiny; and then came Jerry Rubin with a bunch of
peace protesters. Fantastic."
(Quoted in "Faithfull: An Autobiography," by Marianne Faithfull with
David Dalton)
"His image was undercurrent, underground, unconscious in people ...
something a little more mysterious, poetic, a little more Dada, more
where people's hearts and heads actually were rather than where they
'should be' according to some ideological angry theory." (San
Francisco, 1965)
(From "Deliberate Prose," by Allen Ginsberg, edited by Bill Morgan)
Brenda Lee, singer
"Adorable"
"I paid my fourth visit to 'The Ed Sullivan Show'...
"Bob Dylan was to make his national television debut...
"All the kids my age loved him. He was writing songs about the times
and about what was going on. He was a beatnik with fur Eskimo boots
and a long wool coat. His hair was unruly, all frizzy and curly. Bob
showed up for dress rehearsal all rumpled, but nobody seemed to care.
I thought he looked adorable. I introduced myself and told him what a
fan I was. He knew my music, too, which thrilled me." (New York, 1963)
(From "Little Miss Dynamite: The Life and Times of Brenda Lee," by
Brenda Lee with Robert K. Oermann and Julie Clay)
Johnny Cash, country singer
"Happy like kids"
"I was deeply into folk music in the early 1960s, both the authentic
songs from various periods and areas of American life and the new
'folk revival' songs of the time, so I took note of Bob Dylan as soon
as the Bob Dylan album came out in early '62 ... I wrote Bob a letter
telling him how much of a fan I was. He wrote back almost immediately,
saying he'd been following my music since 'I Walk the Line'...
"We actually met each other, when I went to play the Newport [R.I.]
Folk Festival in July of 1964. I don't have many memories of that
event, but I do remember June [Carter] and me and Bob and Joan Baez in
my hotel room, so happy to meet each other that we were jumping on the
bed like kids."
(From "Cash: An Autobiography," by Johnny Cash with Patrick Carr)
Levon Helm, rock musician
"Mod get-up"
"I met Bob for the first time in a New York rehearsal studio. Robbie
[Robertson] and I had driven up from New Jersey, where we [The Band]
were in the third month of our stand at Tony Mart's. Robbie hadn't
been impressed with the drummer Bob was using and suggested he hire me
instead, so I had come to sit in on a rehearsal. Bob was wearing some
mod-style clothes he'd bought in England: a red and blue op-art shirt,
a narrow-waisted jacket, black pegged pants, pointy black Beatle
boots.
"I stuck out my hand when Robbie introduced me. 'Nice to see you,' Bob
Dylan said. 'Thanks for coming up.'" (1965)
(From "This Wheel's on Fire: Levon Helm and the Story of The Band," by
Levon Helm with Stephen Davis)
Marianne Faithfull, rock singer
"Elliptical"
"God Himself checked into the Savoy Hotel. Bob Dylan came to town
wearing Phil Spector shades and an aureole of hair and seething irony.
"Dylan was, at that moment in time, nothing less than the hippest
person on earth. The zeitgeist streamed through him like electricity.
He was my Existential hero, the gangling Rimbaud of rock, and I wanted
to meet him more than any other living being. I wasn't simply a fan; I
worshipped him...
"... one minute I was walking down Oxford Street and the next I was
knocking somewhat trepidatiously on a mysterious blue door. Of course,
with Dylan you are drawn willy-nilly into his world of encoded
messages. Doors are no longer doors; they take on Kafkaesque
significance. There are answers behind them.
"Behind the blue door there was a room full of hipsters, hustlers, pop
stars, swallow- tailed waiters, folkers, Fleet Street hacks, managers,
blondes and beatniks...
"The most remarkable thing about Dylan was his rap.
Stream-of-consciousness thought fragments...
"What people saw as abrasive in Dylan was really his elliptical
approach to everything. He was nothing if not a slippery subject, and
he did not suffer fools gladly. His testiness came into play mostly
with the press. A master of the anti-interview, Dylan fairly bristled
at direct questions." (London, 1965)
(From "Faithfull: An Autobiography," by Marianne Faithfull with David
Dalton)
Cher, rock singer
"Out of the elevator"
"Sonny [Bono] had some work to do at a recording studio in New York. I
was just sitting by myself out in the hall, bored to tears, playing on
some old manual typewriter. When the freight elevator came up, and its
wood-slat doors opened, out stepped Bob Dylan. It was the first time
we'd met. He told me he liked what I'd done with 'All I Really Wanna
Do,' which made me feel like floating away. Then he went in to talk to
Son.
"I just sat there with my jaw hanging open. Bob F_____g Dylan."
(mid-1960s)
(From "The First Time," by Cher with Jeff Coplon)
Andy Warhol, pop artist
"All hunched in"
"Edie [socialite Sedgwick] brought Bob Dylan to the [Sam Green] party
and they huddled by themselves over in a corner...
"Dylan was in blue jeans and high-heeled boots and a sports jacket,
and his hair was sort of long. He had deep circles under his eyes, and
even when he was standing he was all hunched in. He was around
twenty-four then and the kids were all just starting to talk and act
and dress and swagger like he did. But not many people except Dylan
could ever pull that anti-act off -- and if he wasn't in the right
mood, he couldn't either. He was already slightly flashy when I met
him, definitely not folksy anymore -- I mean, he was wearing satin
polka-dot shirts. He'd released 'Bringing It All Back Home,' so he'd
already started his rock sound at this point.
"I liked Dylan, the way he created a brilliant new style. He didn't
spend his career doing homage to the past, he had to do things his own
way, and that was just what I respected." (New York, 1965)
(From "POPism: The Warhol '60s," by Andy Warhol with Pat Hackett)
Skeeter Davis, country singer
"Keeping a low profile"
"I took a taxi to the Bitter End. I found a seat from which to listen
to the Fifth Avenue Band...
"As I listened to the band, I noticed a fellow seated in a booth
against the wall. Each time the house lights went up, he would slide
down in his seat. Each time the lights dimmed, he would ease back up.
Obviously he didn't want to be seen. I thought I recognized him. I
called the club's proprietor over to my table and asked him, 'Isn't
that Bob Dylan?'
"'Yeah, it is,' the man said. 'But I happen to own this place, girlie,
and if you so much as bat an eyelash at him, I'll pitch you out on
your ear.' After that warm response, I found myself concentrating on
watching Dylan slide up and down in that booth rather than on
listening to the band. Finally I could resist no longer. So what if
the owner pitches me out, I'm leaving anyway.
"'Hello. I don't think you know me, but I know you and I just couldn't
help but to come over here and tell you how much I like your music
like everyone else does.'
"'I'm afraid everyone doesn't.' He laughed.
"'I know you don't know who I am' -- I felt awkward and apologetic --
'but my name's Skeeter Davis.'
"Sit down, Skeeter. Of course I know you. You know my friends John and
June Cash, don't you?...
"'As I left he said to me,' By the way, I like your music too,
Skeeter. I intend to record a song of yours one of these days'...
"I was so happy when Bob Dylan released 'I Forgot More Than You'll
Ever Know' on his very next album, 'Self Portrait.'" (New York, 1968)
(From "Bus Fare to Kentucky: The Autobiography of Skeeter Davis")
Peter Fonda, actor
"Screening Easy Rider"
"We had taken the film ['Easy Rider'] to New York City [in 1969] to
show to the main executives at Columbia and to Bob Dylan. Dylan
arrived for the screening with two Black Panthers and his manager, Fat
Albert Grossman, and we rolled the film. When the lights came back up
in the screening room, the Panthers were blown away. Dylan jumped up
from his seat with his wife, Sarah, and hurried [Dennis] Hopper and me
off to a private room as Fat Albert was trying to stop him. He told us
the movie was fantastic, but we couldn't have his song 'It's Alright
Ma,' and we should reshoot the ending -- we should have Captain
America ram his bike into the pickup and made it explode.
"... In 1994, I learned that one of the reasons he didn't want us to
use 'It's Alright Ma' was that he guessed the film's impact, and
dreaded having to sing the song over and over again, endlessly, by
popular demand." (1969)
(From "Don't Tell Dad: A Memoir," by Peter Fonda)
Emmett Grogan, anarchist and provocateur
"Clean"
"Now Emmett was sitting on the second step of a warped wooden flight
of four front stairs that led up and into the funky, screened porch of
a pine-walled cabin where a film editor ... lived ... Bob was sitting
on the same step and in him Emmett saw a man who somehow made it
through that swamp [of drug addiction] and settled down alive on the
other side. A man who had a wife and five kids and simply played music
for a living. A plain and easy-dressed man, complicated only by
heresy. A physically small man who was strong for his size and not fat
at all, but wiry with coached stringy muscles and shoulders that stuck
out wider than you'd think. A man with a lot of friends, but afraid of
those who weren't, just the same. A man who kept a matchstick in his
mouth to keep from smoking and who was sliding with the knowledge of
growing older and leaving the brassy, punk snide of his
younger-than-that-now behind him. Dylan was clean." (Woodstock, N.Y.,
late 1960s)
(From "Ringolevio: A Life Played for Keeps," by Emmett Grogan)
Cathy Smith, groupie
"Famous sandwich"
"While we were living in Gordon's [Lightfoot's] apartment Bob Dylan
came to town. That was when the Mariposa Festival was being held on
Centre Island...
"Dylan appeared at the door wearing a leather jacket, a wide-brimmed
hat and heavy shades. He sat in Gordon's favorite leather chair -- the
standard lounging chair with an ottoman for the feet. His wife Sara,
who was very protective of Dylan, sat between his legs. They both had
halos of dark curly hair.
"Everyone made conversation while Gordon and Dylan looked each other
over and mumbled. Finally Gordon asked Dylan if he would like
something to eat.
"'Sure,' Dylan said, 'I'd love a cheese sandwich.'
"I rushed to the kitchen and began putting together a cheese sandwich.
Then Gordon came in. 'Make it ham and cheese,' he said.
It made sense. A plain cheese sandwich wasn't much to offer Bob Dylan.
And so, using all my culinary skills, I assembled the famous Dylan
sandwich: ham and cheese, with butter and lettuce, on whole wheat. It
sat on the arm of the chair all night, the lettuce slowly curling at
the edges. It turned out that Dylan had recently rediscovered his
Orthodox Jewish roots." (Toronto, 1970)
(From "Chasing the Dragon," by Cathy Smith)
Pamela DesBarres, groupie
"Dead fish"
"After the show, Waylon [Jennings] introduced me to ... actual
real-live Bob Dylan ... Bob put out a limp, damp, world-weary fish
hand for me to shake, and I said, 'I've waited ten years for this?' I
was raging drunk and regretted it royally later..." (Los Angeles,
1971)
(From "I'm With the Band: Confessions of a Groupie," by Pamela
DesBarres)
Jerry Wexler, record producer
"The music trip"
"I've always argued that a producer must serve the artist and the
artist's project, so when Bob Dylan said he wanted me to produce his
new album I wasn't troubled that he was primarily folk rock whereas I
was R&B. He'd gone through his acoustic trip, his electric trip, his
'Nashville Skyline' trip, and now was interested in keyboards,
background vocals, horns, and big textures -- the polished R&B sound.
He had the songs ready, and needed only the right musical context...
"If I was relaxed around Bob, it was probably because we'd met through
our mutual pal Doug Sahm five years before, when we'd spent a weekend
at my place on the Bridgehampton dunes. They played their acoustic
guitars while I beat the conga, waves crashing on the Atlantic, the
three of us bonded by music, memories, and good herb. Bob volunteered
as a sideman on the first album of Doug's I'd produced, and it was an
up for all of us. During a break, Bob and I were kicking back in my
office when he said, 'Man, I've done the word trip -- now I want to do
the music trip.' I knew what he was getting at." (Long Island, N.Y.,
1970s)
(From "Rhythm and Blues: A Life in American Music," by Jerry Wexler
with David Ritz)
Joe Eszterhas, screenwriter
"Whiskey, coke and women"
"I'd waited in the living room of a Denver hotel suite at eight one
morning for Bob Dylan to emerge from his bedroom. A half-full quart of
Jim Bream stood on the living room cocktail table, along with three or
four broken lines of coke. A pair of black silver-toed cowboy boots
was under the table. One girl came out of Bob's bedroom, then another,
then another. They looked tired and sleepy and were scantily and
hastily dressed. They said hi in a shy and embarrassed way and then
they left. Five minutes later, Bob came out, bare-chested and
barefoot, wearing jeans, his hair an airborne jungle, his complexion
graveyard gray. He sat down at the cocktail table, took a long slug of
Jim Beam, did a line of coke, smiled, and said, 'Howya doin?'" (late
1970s)
(From "American Rhapsody," by Joe Eszterhas)
Etta James, blues singer
"Love of the Lord"
"Another mystery man showed up in the middle of the [Jerry] Wexler
[recording] session -- Bob Dylan. Like Jesus, he just happened to drop
by one Tuesday evening to tell me he was a fan and play Wexler some of
his new ideas. Bob had just entered into his heavy born-again period,
so Jesus was much on his mind. Funny thing, he asked Jerry -- a
notorious atheist -- to produce his new album ['Slow Train Coming'],
filled with the love of the Lord." (Los Angeles, 1978)
(From "Rage to Survive," by Etta James with David Ritz)
Jimmy Buffet, rock singer
"Boat talk"
"I overheard the talk at the next table. Water Pearl was in the
harbor, and everyone was talking about whether or not the owner was on
board. She was a beautiful traditional Beguia schooner that had been
built on the island and was a home away from home to a Minnesota boy
named Zimmerman or to those who don't know, Bob Dylan ... 'The boss'
was on board and heard I was in town as well and asked if I wanted to
come out and see the boat and have lunch...
"We didn't talk music. We talked boats over lunch ... He gave me a
tour of Water Pearl, and I can still smell that unique combination of
pitch, canvas, and wood that is the essence of a traditional sailing
rig ... I have seen Bob on a number of occasions since then, but that
was the last time I saw Water Pearl. She foundered on a reef off
Panama a few years later and went down." (Gustavia, St. Barts, 1980s)
(From "A Pirate Looks at Fifty," by Jimmy Buffett)
Bob Geldof, rock singer and promoter
"Man in a pub"
"The [studio] door opened. Bob Dylan came in and sat down beside me.
'Hi,' he said. He looked terrible. His face was all puffed out and
there were black bags under his eyes. He looked as if he had just got
up. We started to talk about his last tour of Ireland. He began to
laugh as I reminded him of things I'd been told about it. I was
sitting there, talking to Bob Dylan. It was like talking to a man in a
pub, I thought." (Hollywood, 1985)
(From "Is That It?" by Bob Geldof with Paul Vallely)
Brian Bosworth, football player
"Who the hell is Bob Dylan?"
"My agent, Gary Wichard, and I were in the L.A. airport. We were
waiting to use the phone and Gary says, 'Look, it's Bob Dylan.'
"'Who the hell is Bob Dylan?'
"That freaked Gary out. 'You don't know who Bob Dylan is?'
"Just then Dylan gets off the phone and says, 'Hey, Boz,' and
introduces himself. I'd never heard of him, but I guess he'd heard of
me. After that I bought a few of his albums and now I listen to his
music. I like it. Small world." (late 1980s)
(From "The Boz: Confessions of a Modern Anti-Hero," by Brian Bosworth
and with Rick Reilly)
John McEnroe, tennis player and commentator
"Getting me wrong"
"Bob Dylan concert in London, 1994: After the concert I was invited
backstage. I'll never forget the first thing Dylan said to me: 'I
heard you can dunk a basketball, and you play great guitar, and I know
Carlos Santana wouldn't lie.' It pained me to have to disillusion him
on both counts."
(From "You Cannot Be Serious," by John McEnroe with James Kaplan)
Gene Simmons, rock musician
"Trading licks"
"I had another once-in-a-lifetime experience when I hooked up with Bob
Dylan and ended up cowriting a song with him. We weren't put together
by anyone else -- I just looked up Dylan's number, called his manager,
and said that I had long been an admirer. I had never spoken to Dylan,
never met him. He came to my guest house in Beverly Hills [Calif.],
and the whole experience was very cordial. I spent about two minutes
telling him how important he was to music in general and to me
personally. He's a very easygoing guy, but he doesn't say much. Then
we sat down, picked up acoustic guitars, and traded licks back and
forth. He had something I liked, I had something he liked, and so on.
When we recorded the demo, he was nice enough to come down to the demo
studio. Since then I have been begging him to write the lyric, and he
keeps telling me that I should do it. Can you imagine that? Bob Dylan
is telling me to write lyrics." (Late 1990s)
(From "KISS and Make-Up," by Gene Simmons)
BuccaneerJuan
>
>Oh, geez, I thought John Wayne might've gotten one.
If Ellsworth had had his way Wayne might have gotten one.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Every patriotic America needs to see Fahrenheit 9/11
Drug free, no-spin radio: http://www.airamericaradio.com/
Democracy in action: http://www.moveon.org
Like father, like son. One term.
BuccaneerJuan
>> could produce the same kind of "genius."
>>
>> Terry Ellsworth
>
>There's no evidence you could ever produce anything of merit.
Although there is strong evidence that Ellsworth himself is a dope ...
Bob Champ
Not much worthwhile was ever written on drugs. Even writers who are
known for drinking, for instance, usually forego it when they are
working. The most famous example of a poem produced on drugs, I
suppose, is Coleridge's "Kubla Khan," but there is evidence to show
that this poem did not leap out of the poet's head in the midst of a
laudanum orgy (as Coleridge says in a famous introduction) but was
carefully worked over.
Songwriters, of course, are a different breed from poets; still,
little worthwhile art is produced in the fog of drugs. As Ezra Pound
once said, if you are an artist, you "need your brains all the time."
Bob Champ
James Neibaur
robertc...@yahoo.com wrote on 10/7/04 2:08 PM:
> Songwriters, of course, are a different breed from poets; still,
> little worthwhile art is produced in the fog of drugs. As Ezra Pound
> once said, if you are an artist, you "need your brains all the time."
I remember someone asking one of the Disney animators at a press conference
if they were on drugs when they produced Alice in Wonderland. "No," the
animator replied, "We were using something called Imagination."
JN
Terrymelin
>>
>> You know better than that, Terry.
>>
>> JN
If Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin were on drugs while writing their
classic lyrics I have yet to read a word about it despite reading just about
everything there is to read about them.
Terry Ellsworth
James Neibaur
stra...@ma.rr.com wrote on 10/7/04 1:06 PM:
> FROM: http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/10/06/dylan/index.html
>
> My first time with Dylan
(snip)
That was interesting reading, Bill, thanks for posting.
I have tickets for my son and me to see Dylan in concert. He is playing at
college campuses on this latest tour promoting his book series.
JN
Brigid Nelson
So we can assume you don't like Joyce?
brigid
James Neibaur
terry...@aol.com wrote on 10/7/04 2:27 PM:
> If Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin were on drugs while writing their
> classic lyrics I have yet to read a word about it despite reading just about
> everything there is to read about them.
No, I don't believe any of those fine composers were.
Every track on the albums Highway 61 Revisited and Blonde On Blonde (ok,
except for that wildly misinterpreted Rainy Day Women) contain extraordinary
lyrics. And I don't think Dylan was on drugs while creating them.
My point was that rock music composers were certainly not the first
songwriters or musicians involved with drugs (Charlie Parker did some pretty
impressive work under some rather wacked-out conditions), and were not
always using drugs, all the time, during the creation of every song.
JN
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Brigid Nelson <irja...@comcast.net> wrote:
> So we can assume you don't like Joyce?
Ellman gives no reason to believe James Joyce ever worked while drunk.
Hung over, maybe, but that isn't the same thing.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kentucky Wizard
>>> They gave Van Morrison the Nobel Prize? Cool.
>>
>> Oh, geez, I thought John Wayne might've gotten one.
>
> If Ellsworth had had his way Wayne might have gotten one.
>
>
Even better, If Ellsworth have had his way, Wayne would have had his way
with Ellsworth before he died. Thankfully for Wayne, he didn't stick his
gun in those types of holsters. ;-)~
--
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
Bob Champ
> > This looks to be one of those perennial debates
> > that go nowhere. Still, it's interesting enough that
> > I thought Obiteers might want to chime in with
> > their own views.
>
> > Dylan's Nobel Nomination Sparks Debate
>
> FROM: http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/10/06/dylan/index.html
>
> My first time with Dylan
>
Interesting stuff, Bill, for anyone who was around in the Sixties
especially.
Simon and Schuster has recently published Dylan's memoir entitled
_Chronicles: Volume One_. I don't know if there will be a volume two
since (at least this is what I read) Dylan didn't like writing the
book.
Bob Champ
Bill Schenley
Byron, Percy *and* Mary Shelly, Carroll, Doyle, Poe, de Quincey,
Moussorgsky, Dickens, Elizabeth Browning, Wilkie Collins, O. Henry,
Stowe, Burroughs, Corso, di Prima, Ginsberg, Kerouac, Rexroth,
Ferlinghetti ... Dylan ...I would guess that is the beginning of an
endless list.
> Even writers who are known for drinking, for
> instance, usually forego it when they are
> working.
How could you possibly know this? You're making the assumption that
an artist who drinks or uses drugs ... is always blind drunk or in a
drug induced psychosis.
Bob ... You not liking something ... doesn't really diminish its
quality ...or art ...
> The most famous example of a poem
> produced on drugs, I suppose, is Coleridge's
> "Kubla Khan," but there is evidence to show
> that this poem did not leap out of the poet's
> head in the midst of a laudanum orgy (as
> Coleridge says in a famous introduction) but
> was carefully worked over.
> Songwriters, of course, are a different breed from
> poets;
Probably not as different as you think ...
> still, little worthwhile art is produced in the fog
> of drugs.
Again, how could you presume to know this? Were you there when all
the "worthwhile" art was created?
> As Ezra Pound once said, if you are an
> artist, you "need your brains all the time."
Ezra must have forgotten all of the great art created by those from
the depressed to the insane ... Oh, wait ... How could *he* forget
that ...
Hey ... Even Dock Ellis painted a masterpiece while under the
influence of LSD ...
Bill Schenley
> in the Sixties especially.
That would be us ...
> Simon and Schuster has recently published Dylan's
> memoir entitled _Chronicles: Volume One_.
Yeah ... I read Sean Penn does the audio version ...
> I don't know if there will be a volume two since (at
> least this is what I read) Dylan didn't like
> writing the book.
I thought "Chronicles: V1" was the first of *several* volumes. From
what I heard/read ... in the future volumes ... *other* people will do
most of the writing.
doc
wrote:
Dylan's contribution to American culture is above dispute, IMHO.
However, as a lyricist whose work aspires to the sublimity of poetry,
he isn't even in the same league as Jackson Browne. One hundred years
from now, Browne's words will endure alongside the masters of English
poetry, and he will be remembered as the Bard of the Seventies.
BTW, today is his 57th birthday.
(I count lyricists as poets because today's serious "poets" are, for
the most part, stodgy, self-important academics like Robert Pinsky.
The real poets are -- or at least were in the halcyon days of the
sixties and seventies == songwriters.)
Bob Feigel
wrote:
>FROM: http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/10/06/dylan/index.html
>
>My first time with Dylan
>
>Johnny Cash, Joan Baez, Cher, Allen Ginsberg, Jimmy Buffett, Andy
>Warhol and others on their initial meetings with the folk legend.
And others:
I'd been an admirer of Dylan's music since I first heard it in a
'coffee house' back in the late-fifties. Then, as more about his life
was made public in the early-sixties, I admired him as a person.
Actually, his music had a huge impact on my young adult life and one
of my fantasies was one day being able to thank him and tell him how
much his music meant to me.
Then, in the early-seventies, I was throwing a frisbee around the
beach when it soared over the wall into the patio area in front of the
house being rented by Robbie and Monique Robertson (The Band). I'd met
Monique when I'd helped rescue their puppy from underneath their deck
so I didn't have any qualms about running up the front steps from the
beach while trying to catch the frisbee.
It all happened so quickly. My eyes were following the frisbee so I
didn't really notice who was sitting in the deck chair where it
landed. In fact, it landed right in front of two amazing cowboy boots.
As I scooped up the frisbee I looked up from the boots and into the
face of Bob Dylan.
This was my big chance, but I couldn't think of anything to say but,
"Frisbee."
And Bob said, "I know."
Oh well ... maybe next time.
"When weaving nets, all threads count." - Charlie Chan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wax-up and drop-in of Surfing's Golden Years: <http://www.surfwriter.net>
theresa
I agree that many lyricists tackle issues that many poets often can't
match -- there seems to be an excess of observation but no connecting
narrative or feeling -- but I tend to see them as separate since they
function differently. Music is the silence between notes and poetry is
the silence between words, but the measures remain formal in music
whereas poetry is free to investigate the limits of its own rhythms
(when, I agree, it's the sort of poetry that does not take itself too
seriously). So you have to know the back beat that carries the lyrics
or, sometimes, they tend to lay flat on the page. When I was a kid and
got my first Joni Mitchell album, I noticed the huge difference between
the words as written and how they were sung. Jackson Browne was -- and
is -- one of my all time favorites as well, but outside of his love
songs (and the disturbing stories and histories behind them) I was
surprised how, upon listening to his songs of the Vietnam era, I
realized the "cruel and senseless hand" still ruled over us, and all his
protesting hadn't changed this, or else he was speaking of a generic
problem in what he believed were specific terms...
Harry Krause
>> Interesting stuff, Bill, for anyone who was around
>> in the Sixties especially.
>
> That would be us ...
Whatever happened to Susie Rotolo?
Bob Champ
> In the previous article, Brigid Nelson <irja...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > So we can assume you don't like Joyce?
>
> Ellman gives no reason to believe James Joyce ever worked while drunk.
> Hung over, maybe, but that isn't the same thing.
A man with an imagination like Joyce didn't need drugs. I do recall
reading a story about him during the time he was writing _Finnegan's
Wake_. He apparently enjoyed the book so much that he laughed out
loud as the ideas and wordplay occured to him, disturbing Nora's
sleep. She would call out to him, "Jim, either stop laughing or come
to bed," or words to that effect. (Now there was a woman who was not
intimidated by her husband's genius.)
Most artists at one time or another experiment with drugs because
artists are natural experimenters. And I have no doubt that some good
things have been produced while on drugs. But these, I believe, are
few indeed. There are famous books, like DeQuincey's _Confessions of
an English Opium Eater_, that have been written about the drug
experience, but I doubt if the author was on opium when he wrote it.
I do remember reading that Fitzgerald said he was high while writing
the last part of _Tender is the Night_, and regretted it.
Bob Champ
Bill Schenley
> > > around in the Sixties especially.
> > That would be us ...
> Whatever happened to Susie Rotolo?
She married Enzo Bartoccioli sometime in the 1970s.
Her uncle was the portrait/landscape painter, Pietro Pezzati
...(http://www.xasa.com/wiki/en/wikipedia/p/pi/pietro_pezzati.html)
Here's an old photograph of her:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000024RQ.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
James Neibaur
b...@surfwriter.net.not wrote on 10/7/04 7:29 PM:
> This was my big chance, but I couldn't think of anything to say but,
> "Frisbee."
>
> And Bob said, "I know."
>
> Oh well ... maybe next time.
That story is likely better than anything that may have happened had you not
been so taken aback.
Thanks for sharing a fun anecdote.
JN
Harry Krause
Jeff George
following from terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin):
>>> Yeah, because those old pre-rock songwriters never touched the stuff.
>>>
>>> You know better than that, Terry.
>>>
>>> JN
>
>If Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin were on drugs while writing their
>classic lyrics
Well, they should've been on drugs. They would've written better
lyrics.
--
Jeff George, Freedom Fighter
"Will no one rid me of this Monkeydent?"
- Jeff George starring as Henry II
doc
news:hugdm0dt6dicrl6bk...@4ax.com:
> On 07 Oct 2004 19:27:06 GMT I used my godlike powers to observe the
> following from terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin):
>
>>>> Yeah, because those old pre-rock songwriters never touched the
>>>> stuff.
>>>>
>>>> You know better than that, Terry.
>>>>
>>>> JN
>>
>>If Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin were on drugs while
>>writing their classic lyrics
>
> Well, they should've been on drugs. They would've written better
> lyrics.
Touche, old man! TOUCHE!
Bob Champ
> > Not much worthwhile was ever written on drugs.
>
> Byron, Percy *and* Mary Shelly, Carroll, Doyle, Poe, de Quincey,
> Moussorgsky, Dickens, Elizabeth Browning, Wilkie Collins, O. Henry,
> Stowe, Burroughs, Corso, di Prima, Ginsberg, Kerouac, Rexroth,
> Ferlinghetti ... Dylan ...I would guess that is the beginning of an
> endless list.
>
Well, you have a very variegated list here. Anyone who would put
Gregory Corso in the same list with Percy Shelley is really cutting it
fine. (Corso himself would probably agree since he thought so much of
Shelley he arranged to be buried in the same cemetery with him--in
Italy.) I have no doubt that the bottom tier of this list engaged in
drugs while working. But the upper tier is something else again.
These people did use drugs, but that doesn't mean they wrote their
works on drugs. (By the way, in this list of writers, how did
Moussorgsky get in?)
> > Even writers who are known for drinking, for
> > instance, usually forego it when they are
> > working.
>
> How could you possibly know this? You're making the assumption that
> an artist who drinks or uses drugs ... is always blind drunk or in a
> drug induced psychosis.
>
Because I have read enough about writers to know that those who use
drugs generally don't write under the influence of drugs. Writing
requires focus and discipline, which drugs undermine.
> Bob ... You not liking something ... doesn't really diminish its
> quality ...or art ...
There are talented writers whose work I do not care for, but that has
nothing to do with the subject at hand.
>
> > The most famous example of a poem
> > produced on drugs, I suppose, is Coleridge's
> > "Kubla Khan," but there is evidence to show
> > that this poem did not leap out of the poet's
> > head in the midst of a laudanum orgy (as
> > Coleridge says in a famous introduction) but
> > was carefully worked over.
>
> > Songwriters, of course, are a different breed from
> > poets;
>
> Probably not as different as you think ...
Songwriters have divided loyalties between the music and the lyrics,
and they will sacrifice one for the other if called for. Poets are
focused on words alone, and their poems are more carefully crafted
than song lyrics.
>
> > still, little worthwhile art is produced in the fog
> > of drugs.
>
> Again, how could you presume to know this? Were you there when all
> the "worthwhile" art was created?
See my answer above. Drugs usually have the effect of depressing the
CNS or souping it up so much that the capacity for concentration goes
way down. I wasn't "there," of course, when all the worthwhile art was
created, but I can rely on the records left by artists and their
friends and relations, which tell me that while drugs might have been
used they seldom did anything for the creative spark.
>
> > As Ezra Pound once said, if you are an
> > artist, you "need your brains all the time."
>
> Ezra must have forgotten all of the great art created by those from
> the depressed to the insane ... Oh, wait ... How could *he* forget
> that ...
>
There is a difference, though, between depression and insanity (I
think you must mean psychosis here) that is a part of the daily lives
of some unfortunates, and deliberately induced drug states which are
only temporary. Many writers use writing as a way of dealing with
their problems, of escaping them. Drugs themselves are an escape
(though not always a pleasant one, it should be said). Why would an
artist trade one for the other?
> Hey ... Even Dock Ellis painted a masterpiece while under the
> influence of LSD ...
Well, bless his heart.
Bob Champ
Bob Champ
> what I heard/read ... in the future volumes ... *other* people will do
> most of the writing.
Well, if that is true, sales will probably go way down.
One expects that most books by movie stars and politicians will be
ghost-written, but Dylan should be able to turn out all the books by
himself.
Bob Champ
Bob Champ
So, doc, do you think someone should nominate Jackson Brown for the
Nobel Prize?
There are poets some good poets out there--try B.H. Fairchild's _The
Art of the Lathe_. Wonderful poems. And the poems grow out of
Fairchild's own working-class background, which ought to please you.
Seriously, Fairchild is a very fine poet. So are Steven Dunn and Paul
Mariani and Louise Gluck.
Bob Champ
doc
news:9d079b90.04100...@posting.google.com:
> So, doc, do you think someone should nominate Jackson Brown for the
> Nobel Prize?
>
I'm not THAT naive. However, I have always resented the fact that Arthur
C. Clarke was never nominated.
James Neibaur
robertc...@yahoo.com wrote on 10/8/04 2:51 PM:
> So, doc, do you think someone should nominate Jackson Brown for the
> Nobel Prize?
The difference being that Jackson Browne would not likely have happened if
not for Dylan.
I see no problem with either of them being considered, however. Why not?
JN
Bob Feigel
wrote:
Thanks for appreciating it. b
Brigid Nelson
> In the previous article, Brigid Nelson <irja...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>So we can assume you don't like Joyce?
>
>
> Ellman gives no reason to believe James Joyce ever worked while drunk.
> Hung over, maybe, but that isn't the same thing.
If I've disparagad an innocent I'm truly sorry. I guess I just felt
drunk trying to read Finnegan's Wake.
brigid
Terrymelin
>not for Dylan.
>
>I see no problem with either of them being considered, however. Why not?
Heck, let's nominate Stephen King and John Grisham too.
Terry Ellsworth
James Neibaur
terry...@aol.com wrote on 10/8/04 10:43 PM:
>> I see no problem with either of them being considered, however. Why not?
>
> Heck, let's nominate Stephen King and John Grisham too.
You honestly can't see the difference between Bob Dylan and Stephen King?
Come on.
That is like not seeing the difference between Jack Benny and Chevy Chase.
JN
doc
news:20041008234308...@mb-m04.aol.com:
> Heck, let's nominate Stephen King and John Grisham too.
>
Reductio ab absurdum by the master of deceit...
How do you find shoes for those cloven hooves, you absolute horror of a
human being?
The Kentucky Wizard
James, Ellsworth can't even see the difference between daylight and
dark. You're just confusing him all the more. He'll be working on that
Benny/Chase difference all weekend now.
--
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
James Neibaur
Kentuck...@NOSPAMwalla.com wrote on 10/9/04 6:41 PM:
> James, Ellsworth can't even see the difference between daylight and
> dark. You're just confusing him all the more. He'll be working on that
> Benny/Chase difference all weekend now.
Not true. Terry actually is quite knowlegeable about entertainers, and
their history, and will most certainly appreciate Benny's superiority to
Chevy Chase. I used that comparison for that reason.
He just doesn't like rock music, which he has admitted, and when you don't
like something it is hard to appreciate it. I am the same way about country
music. I have respect for the genius of Jimmy Rodgers (the singing
brakeman, not the Honeycomb guy) Hank Williams Sr, Patsy Cline, Johnny Cash,
et. al., but can't truly appreciate a lot of superstars of the music because
I simply don't like it. Purely subjective.
So, I understand Terry's perspective.
JN