Robert H. Lochner, 84, JFK Interpreter - "Ich bin ein Berliner"
Hoodude
BERLIN - Robert H. Lochner, who as John F. Kennedy's interpreter
helped the president practice his famous 1963 "Ich bin ein Berliner"
speech, has died, his family said Monday. He was 84.
A journalist by trade who helped revive free media in West Germany
after World War II, Lochner died of a lung embolism early Sunday at
his home in western Berlin, said his daughter, Anita.
Lochner was head of Radio in the American Sector (RIAS), a radio
station supported by the U.S. government in then-West Berlin during
Kennedy's triumphal visit to West Germany and the non-Communist half
of the divided capital during the Cold War.
The high point was Kennedy's electrifying June 26, 1963, speech in
West Berlin, a ringing defense of freedom less than two years after
East Germany built the Berlin Wall. Lochner helped Kennedy practice
the key phrase — German for "I am a Berliner" — with the help of the
phonetic spelling "ish been oin bear-lee-ner."
Born Oct. 20, 1918, in New York, Lochner grew up in Berlin. His
father, Louis P. Lochner, was a correspondent and Pulitzer
Prize-winning bureau chief in Germany for The Associated Press from
1924 until the United States entered the war in 1941.
After studying in the United States, the younger Lochner returned to
Germany as a U.S. soldier after the Nazi surrender. Thanks to his
knowledge of German, he became chief interpreter for U.S. occupation
forces in western Germany and chief editor of the Neue Zeitung
newspaper in Frankfurt in 1949-52. Later jobs took him to Vietnam and
Washington, before he retired in Berlin.
Lochner's survivors include three daughters and a son.
cugina
dig_infinity!@yahoo.com wrote on 9/22/03 3:59 PM:
Wasn't there some debate that the above mentioned phrase Kennedy spoke as
given to him translated into "I am a jelly donut?" I'm not making this up.
Andrewjmilner
>given to him translated into "I am a jelly donut?" I'm not making this up.
The phrase "ein Berliner" means "from Berlin" and is also colloquial German for
"jelly donut," but in the context of a political speech from a US president,
the Germans understood "Ich bin ein Berliner" to mean "I'm a resident of
Berlin."
pstayertp
"Rob Petrie" <r*@att.net> wrote in message
news:WtJbb.64302$NM1....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Hoodude" <dig_infinity!@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:71e06d1591064195...@news.usenetguide.com...
> > JFK Interpreter Robert Lochner Dies at 84
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/o9ns
>
> > BERLIN - Robert H. Lochner, who as John F. Kennedy's interpreter
> > helped the president practice his famous 1963 "Ich bin ein Berliner"
> > speech, has died, his family said Monday. He was 84.
>
> > A journalist by trade who helped revive free media in West Germany
> > after World War II, Lochner died of a lung embolism early Sunday at
> > his home in western Berlin, said his daughter, Anita.
>
> > Lochner was head of Radio in the American Sector (RIAS), a radio
> > station supported by the U.S. government in then-West Berlin during
> > Kennedy's triumphal visit to West Germany and the non-Communist half
> > of the divided capital during the Cold War.
>
> > The high point was Kennedy's electrifying June 26, 1963, speech in
> > West Berlin, a ringing defense of freedom less than two years after
> > East Germany built the Berlin Wall. Lochner helped Kennedy practice
> > phonetic spelling "ish been oin bear-lee-ner."
>
> > Born Oct. 20, 1918, in New York, Lochner grew up in Berlin. His
> > father, Louis P. Lochner, was a correspondent and Pulitzer
> > Prize-winning bureau chief in Germany for The Associated Press from
> > 1924 until the United States entered the war in 1941.
>
> > After studying in the United States, the younger Lochner returned to
> > Germany as a U.S. soldier after the Nazi surrender. Thanks to his
> > knowledge of German, he became chief interpreter for U.S. occupation
> > forces in western Germany and chief editor of the Neue Zeitung
> > newspaper in Frankfurt in 1949-52. Later jobs took him to Vietnam and
> > Washington, before he retired in Berlin.
>
> > Lochner's survivors include three daughters and a son.
>
>
> famous phrase was that "Ich bin ein Berliner" doesn't mean what everybody
in
> the US and elsewhere outside of Berlin, Germany thought it meant at the
> time. I only read about this years after June, 1963 as somebody
translated
> the exact meaning of the words as it applied to Berlin at the time.
> In Berlin, 'ein Berliner' was known as a delicious jelly doughnut.
> Therefore, what JFK actually said literally was, "I am a jelly
> doughnut!" [*]
> But the people in Berlin knew what he meant to say.
>
> That literal interpretation always cracks me up everytime I am
reminded
> of "Ich bin ein Berliner."
> [*] What JFK should have said was, "Ich bin Berliner."
>
Not so. Look a little further into the issue and you will see that JFK's
phrasing was correct.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Hoodude" <dig_infinity!@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:71e06d1591064195...@news.usenetguide.com...
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/o9ns
>
> > BERLIN - Robert H. Lochner, who as John F. Kennedy's interpreter
> > helped the president practice his famous 1963 "Ich bin ein Berliner"
> > speech, has died, his family said Monday. He was 84.
>
> > A journalist by trade who helped revive free media in West Germany
> > after World War II, Lochner died of a lung embolism early Sunday at
> > his home in western Berlin, said his daughter, Anita.
>
> > Lochner was head of Radio in the American Sector (RIAS), a radio
> > station supported by the U.S. government in then-West Berlin during
> > Kennedy's triumphal visit to West Germany and the non-Communist half
> > of the divided capital during the Cold War.
>
> > The high point was Kennedy's electrifying June 26, 1963, speech in
> > West Berlin, a ringing defense of freedom less than two years after
> > East Germany built the Berlin Wall. Lochner helped Kennedy practice
> > phonetic spelling "ish been oin bear-lee-ner."
>
> > Born Oct. 20, 1918, in New York, Lochner grew up in Berlin. His
> > father, Louis P. Lochner, was a correspondent and Pulitzer
> > Prize-winning bureau chief in Germany for The Associated Press from
> > 1924 until the United States entered the war in 1941.
>
> > After studying in the United States, the younger Lochner returned to
> > Germany as a U.S. soldier after the Nazi surrender. Thanks to his
> > knowledge of German, he became chief interpreter for U.S. occupation
> > forces in western Germany and chief editor of the Neue Zeitung
> > newspaper in Frankfurt in 1949-52. Later jobs took him to Vietnam and
> > Washington, before he retired in Berlin.
>
> > Lochner's survivors include three daughters and a son.
>
> famous phrase was that "Ich bin ein Berliner" doesn't mean what everybody in
> the US and elsewhere outside of Berlin, Germany thought it meant at the
> time. I only read about this years after June, 1963 as somebody translated
> the exact meaning of the words as it applied to Berlin at the time.
> In Berlin, 'ein Berliner' was known as a delicious jelly doughnut.
> Therefore, what JFK actually said literally was, "I am a jelly
> doughnut!" [*]
> But the people in Berlin knew what he meant to say.
>
> That literal interpretation always cracks me up everytime I am reminded
> of "Ich bin ein Berliner."
>
> [*] What JFK should have said was, "Ich bin Berliner."
That is another one of those Urban Legends which could be true, but is
not. See some of the articles on the Web about this:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm
http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/kennedy_berliner_quote.html
http://www.slipups.com/items/51.html
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
David Carson
> I agree with the following poster who wrote from slipups.com you
>referenced:
>
>"megaera writes:
>I had a discussion about this with a friend of mine who is German, and she
>said that all the major German cities are associated with a type of food.
>Berlin's is the jelly donut. So "Ich bin ein Berliner" means both "I am a
>Berliner" and "I am a jelly donut." Obviously the people to whom JFK was
>speaking knew that in this context, he meant the former."
You agree with the person who says that the phrase has two meaning,
both equally correct.
Yet, you posted earlier:
>> One of the funniest, yet relatively little known things about JFK's
>> famous phrase was that "Ich bin ein Berliner" doesn't mean what everybody in
>> the US and elsewhere outside of Berlin, Germany thought it meant at the
>> time.
How can you claim that it *doesn't* have a certain meaning, yet agree
with someone who says that it *does* have that meaning?
Could it be that when you posted the above sentence you were wrong,
and now that someone has caught you, and you've learned what the truth
is, you're trying to make it sound like you were right all along? Nah
... you'd never do that, would you?
AnthonyMarsh
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> news:3F70C4BC...@quik.com...
> true, why didn't you write, 'That is another one of those Urban Legends
> which is not true'?
The construction of my sentence means something like, "This sounds so
exciting that we wish it were true and it certainly sounds on face value
AS IF it COULD be true, but it is not."
> You are therefore saying there is a logical (contextual) possibility
> of the translation to be "I am a jelly donut."
Well, that's the point. A very literal translation CAN mean "I am a
jelly donut" if you don't understand German. But it is an idiomatic
expression and it does not mean what it literally says. Such as "You
slay me."
>
> > http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm
> > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/kennedy_berliner_quote.html
> > http://www.slipups.com/items/51.html
>
> > --
> > Anthony Marsh
> > The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
>
> Anthony, in this one case, I don't care WHAT 'urban legends' says in
> its 'official' version of the truth, because the interpretation depends upon
> the double translation and context in using 'ein Berliner'. Because he
> wasn't technically a resident of Berlin referring that of himself talking to
> somebody else [and esp. with the 'er' at the end of 'Berlin', which wouldn't
> be necessary to say what city you reside in (i.e., 'Hamburg', not
> 'Hamburger'], the interpretation falls literally to the second meaning: "I
> am a jelly donut."
No, that is not true. Just because uneducated listeners do not
understand the context and the idiomatic expression does not mean that
it falls literally to the other meaning. When listening to a speech by a
politician you have to expect rhetorical devices, allegories, similes,
whatever.
> But obviously, everybody in Berlin (and elsewhere) knew the context in
> which he was referencing and what he meant by 'ein Berliner'.
> I agree with the following poster who wrote from slipups.com you
> referenced:
>
> "megaera writes:
>
> I had a discussion about this with a friend of mine who is German, and she
> said that all the major German cities are associated with a type of food.
> Berlin's is the jelly donut. So "Ich bin ein Berliner" means both "I am a
> Berliner" and "I am a jelly donut." Obviously the people to whom JFK was
> speaking knew that in this context, he meant the former."
>
> http://www.slipups.com/items/51.html
>
> Comments:
>
> UB writes:
> I am German, and I think, using the word "ein" was correct, both from the
> grammar of the sentence and the intention of the speaker.
> The intention of JFK was to tell the people from Berlin, that he was (kind
> of) citizen of Berlin and everything what would happen to the city would
> affect him. "Ich bin Berliner" is not the same as "Ich bin ein Berliner" In
> my opinion the first expression usually means more like "I was born in
> Berlin", whereas the latter one emphasizes the citizenship.
> Although "Berliner" is some kind of food, in Berlin itself these jelly
> filled doughnuts are called "Pfannkuchen" (pancakes).
> Something unrelated: In Vienna a kind of sausages (similar to Hotdogs) are
> called "Frankfurter", but in Frankfurt the same stuff is called "Wiener
> (Würstchen)" (Viennese sausages)
> 52 of 59 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Jelly Doughnut (bethwasa...@drugsmakemecool.com) writes:
> As an official Jelly Doughnut, I resent this whole linguistic mix-up. I
> speak on behalf of myself and my best friends The Rebellious Spork, and The
> Evil Mountain Goat!!!
> 42 of 55 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Toni (toni....@t-online.de) writes:
> I live in germany. I speak German. So I can say it was perfectly right when
> he said "Ich bin ein Berliner". This "ein" was to emphasize it.
> 33 of 37 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Albert writes:
> I think the people of Berlin knew better.
>
> This is the equivalent of someone from Frankfurt announcing "I am a
> Frankfurter", and having everyone assume he's calling himself a hot dog.
> 25 of 26 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> kevin_dwain (kmcc...@kent.edu) writes:
> Kennedy DID make one small mistake, but it had nothing to do with a jelly
> donut!
>
> "Ich bin Berliner" takes on the literal meaning of the phrase "I am a
> citizen of Berlin." It would have been incorrect for Kennedy to say this
> when referring to himself since we all know he didn't reside in West Berlin.
> The addition of 'ein' into "Ich bin ein Berliner" gives the figurative
> meaning of the phrase. It's along the lines as saying "I am LIKE a citizen
> of Berlin" or "I am one with the citizens of Berlin."
>
> So what mistake did JFK make? Well, he used the phrase twice during his
> speech. Once in reference to the citizens of Berlin and once in reference to
> himself. He should not have used the figurative phrase both times. He should
> have said "Ich bin Berliner" the first time and "Ich bin ein Berliner" as he
> finished the speech.
> 13 of 15 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Annette (annet...@yahoo.com) writes:
> The speech to which he is referring is President John F Kennedy's "The
> Proudest Boast," on June 25 [26], 1963 in Berlin, Germany. From what I've
> read, the President WAS grammatically correct when he said, "I am a
> Berliner," but there was a jelly doughnut named the Berliner. For more
> information about this, see
> http://www.geocities.com/~newgeneration/berliner.htm
> 11 of 13 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Moonboy (blue...@gmx.de) writes:
> I am really sad to see so many comments about jelly donuts and food-stuff!!!
> Maybe all of you are hungry. Of course, the speech is grammatical correct! I
> mean, he was a President of the USA, a powerful and big nation.
> He didn't say "Ich bin Berliner", because it sounds not very good and it
> says: "I am a citizen of Berlin", and this wouldn't fit with the contents,
> because he did never live nor was born in Berlin!
> Everybody understood him and this is the main issue!
> He also spoke "passive". He said literally: ... Today in the world of
> freedom the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner". In my opinion, he
> never said that he is a Berliner or a Berlin citizen. He just said that the
> Berlin citizen could be proud to be what they are - Berliner.
> 7 of 9 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> athome writes:
> I am from Austria, and German's my mother tongue. Believe me, it's perfectly
> right to say "Ich bin ein Berliner", as it is to say "Ich bin Berliner."
> Maybe the first one's more common, but that depends on which region of
> Germany or Austria you come from.
> 6 of 7 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Tobias (sl...@thepentagon.com) writes:
> I live in Germany, too.
> In my opinion you can say both "Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Ich bin
> Berliner". The last one may be the more common one. But as Toni said, in
> this case "ein" is some kind of emphasis. Only view people will think, that
> JFK was calling himself a doughnut.
>
> Did you know that we have baker's ware that's called "Amerikaner"
> (=American)? :-)
> 6 of 7 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Malena (mdh...@hotmail.com) writes:
> As I learned from reading his speech, JFK was talking about freedom for all
> people and that Berlin should be a symbol of freedom. In this case he would
> be a person of Berlin. This is why he said: Ich bin ein Berliner. Had he
> said, ich bin Berliner, he would have meant that he is a citizen of Berlin,
> which he wasn't. Therefore I think he was right.
> And by the way... a Berliner is a doughnut, filled with jelly, but is only
> called this in some parts of Germany. In Berlin, everybody says Pfannkuchen.
> My grandparents, who were there, understood what he was trying to say, as
> did the rest of Berlin, I am sure.
> 4 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Lynx134269 (lynx1...@yahoo.com) writes:
> Just to lighten the mood because a lot of you are taking this a little too
> seriously, I suggest that you find a copy of "Eddie Izzard: Dressed to Kill"
> he's a comedian & does talk about this as well as other humorous things
> about language.
> 3 of 3 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> LaraRulz writes:
> Go to www.dictionary.com, type in any thing, click translator, and type that
> in....you'll see that it means I AM A CITIZEN OF BERLIN, which is a
> country/state/city of Germany....I'm not 18 yet, and I know that!
> 4 of 5 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Prof. J. P. Maher (jpm...@neiu.edu) writes:
> What did JFK say in his famous speech at the Berlin Wall? Did his
> interpreter muck things up? No.
> Kennedy's 1963 speech in Berlin contained no error, contrary to an
> apocryphal story that has appeared successively in the Reader's Digest, a
> letter to Newsweek, and twice on the Opinion - Editorial page of the New
> York Times.
> The tale is propagated by people with little or no German, with novice
> skills in German syntax and stylistics, or possibly people who know the
> language but have incompetently analyzed the matter and are prone to repeat
> an urban legend. Monoglot editors have authorized the publication of
> incompetent opinions on matters of language, including translation. These
> editors misunderstand both the grammar of the JFK text and the pun alluding
> to it. Copycats have spread the virus far and wide.
> Punsters, by adroit manipulation of contexts of situation, can precipitate
> in the mind a homonymous reading of a text authored with a different
> intention. People who know German and who remember the 1963 speech know what
> JFK meant; they also know that his grammar was correct and-later-the witty
> were able to savor a clever pun on that famous text:
> ICH BIN EIN BERLINER.
> Foreign beginners in the language have insufficient subtlety and command of
> the language, while ordinary native speakers lack the grammarian's expert
> skills to explain and demonstrate what is going on in such cases. The
> problem, to begin with, involves only the predicate. In subject position we
> get the article: consider the old song Ein Tiroler wollte jagen ['a Tyroler
> wanted to go a-hunting']. The claim that ethnic and other epithets preclude
> use of the indefinite article is absurd. The problem with predicates is more
> subtle.
> Learners of foreign languages tend to translate literally; the
> English-speaking novice learning German works from the English pattern, such
> as I'm an American, he's a German and comes up in German with ich bin ein
> Amerikaner, er ist ein Deutscher. Which is NOT grammatically incorrect. But
> in German stylistics one also uses ich bin Amerikaner, er ist Deutscher,
> without an article.
> Wo kommen Sie her ['where do you come from?]. Here one can answer aus
> Berlin; ich bin Berliner. The first subtlety is that the native speaker will
> hardly exercise this option unless his hometown is widely known: folks from
> small towns can't expect the world to know what a Zevener is, unless it's
> folk from the next village in Niedersachsen. Besides ich bin Berliner, to
> continue, one can equally well say ich bin ein Berliner.
> The English-speaker, so long as word-for-word translation is his wont, is
> struck by the predicate construction sein (bin) without the article ein, and
> overgeneralizes that the style with article is wrong. Not so. But unless
> foreigners can also use the article-less ich bin Berliner, they will never
> sound authentic. Both styles, to repeat, are used. Both are correct, and are
> not neatly opposed to each other but overlap in their usage.
> ...-The evening of 14 November 1988 I heard a learned man say, when asked if
> he was a member of the Chicaqo German Translators Forum "Nein. Ich bin nur
> ein Gast hier; ich bin nur Gast." He unhesitatingly used BOTH constructions,
> with and without article. I had not discussed the matter with him before.
> The phrase ich bin Berliner "translates" the English I'm a Berliner. But the
> German construction connotes that the speaker was born in Berlin, speaks
> like a Berliner, manifests the stereotypical traits of a Berliner, resides
> there, that is, any or all of the above, though said person may have
> migrated, lost the accent, even left the city and/or country before
> acquiring speech and growing up. Theses nuances are lost in the English
> "translation". As a foreigner JFK was well advised to use the locution ich
> bin ein Berliner, since literally he wasn't one of them, but he meant to
> identify with the people of the beleaguered city and certainly didn't speak
> the language. A native son can use either construction. The native can also
> say ich bin ein Berliner (da kann ich nichts für [sic] ), in dialect ik bin
> een Berliner. The nuances here are several.
> First, one is answering to a question about his origins, all the more reason
> why JFK's speech writer is to be exonerated.
> Eichhoff has identified the speech writer, a master of German. The "jelly
> doughnut" myth looks suspiciously like the a computerized "translation".
> This leads to another nuance: ich bin ein Berliner can imply pride, and
> brashness. It won't be found in lessons constructed for speakers of English
> who are learning German.-Note the cartoon Berliner in the textbook of
> Moeller & Liedloff 1988: 63]: ik bin een Berlina is the Plattdeutsch
> equivalent of standard German ich bin ein Berliner.
> Now consider ich bin ein Wiener, Frankfurter, Krakauer, Debreciner etc. One
> understands here 'resident, native of Vienna, Frankfurt, Krakau (Kraków),
> Debrecen' etc. Now, in the context of the sausage shop of course the
> er-suffix is understood to denote 'one [sausage] from' the city cited, as it
> also refers to citizens when that's what we're talking about.-In a cheese
> shop Limburger designates the highly fragrant Belgian cheese.- Ein Pariser
> denotes not only 'un parisien', but also 'a condom.'
> Furthermore, ein Berliner is not even north German, but Rhenish (Eichhoff
> 1993). This is a Catholic region, not Lutheran. The pastry in question is by
> no means jelly-filled. It belongs to Catholic culture, a part of the
> Rheinland Karneval / Fasching, and has analogues shared with Catholic
> Austria, Poland etc. On Mardi Gras, the eve of Ash Wednesday, the treat is
> prepared. According to a recipe calling for no jelly, just flour, oil, and
> powdered sugar. These supplies are to be used up before Ash Wednesday,
> beginning the Great Lenten fast.
> In north Germany another elliptical term is known: ein Berliner [sc.
> Bündel], literally. 'a Berlin bundle.' The reference is to the cartoonist's
> stereotypical vagabond with his belongings tied in a bundle carried over the
> shoulder on a stick.
> The construction meaning 'Jelly-doughnut à la [sc. mode de] Berlin', is
> elliptical for ein Berliner [sc. Ballen]. I used to smile when picking up my
> bread and rolls at a Hamburg bakery on seeing a monumental wall-poster
> portraying a succulent jelly-doughnut and captioned, with a good-humored
> allusion to JFK's speech:
> ICH BIN EIN BERLINER.
> An excellent linguist, native and schooled speaker of German writes:
> "Nothing wrong with this one. It was evidently modeled on Ciuis romanus
> sum."
> Allusion means making a 'play' on something. The jelly-doughnut reading
> involves a pun, not an error. In 1963 JFK was clearly and correctly
> understood in the sense he wished to communicate. His text was not intended
> to be a pun, but lent itself to one after the fact.
> History repeated itself in the 1970s, when McDonald's, carrying coals to
> Newcastle, used advertisements that played on the syntax we have dealt with
> here, as well as with the stereotype of the Hanseatic citizenry as cold and
> aloof. A portrait of their product, was captioned 'Germany's most beloved
> hamburger ~ Hamburger':
> DEUTSCHLANDS BELIEBTESTER HAMBURGER.
> In those days I too, though born in the USA, could say
> ICH BIN EIN HAMBURGER.
> I was a Hamburger, not a hamburger.
>
> 13 of 23 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Dan (danh...@yahoo.com) writes:
> OK, trying to add some substance to this argument. Believers in this urban
> legend - that JFK referred to himself as a sugar dusted piece of
> confectionary - claim that the crowd at the event were confused by this
> comment and subdued in their applause as a result. This is far from the
> case. The crowd understood exactly what he was saying and exploded into
> applause as soon as the word Berliner left his lips. This, perhaps the most
> famous political sound byte of the period, can be found in many places on
> the net. By the way, do you really believe that the entire presidential
> staff would let him out there in front of that crowd without a grammatically
> correct speech??
> 6 of 9 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> marloes (marloes...@hotmail.com) writes:
> I think he said Ich bin EIN Berliner, because he wanted to know the whole
> world he showed compassion for the German people and to let everybody know
> that he felt the same as everybody else...wow isn't that beautiful?
> 3 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> rockford (cork...@hotmail.com) writes:
> "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a citizen of Berlin" goto:
> http://translate.dictionary.com/systran.cgi and translate German to English
> 2 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> VorteX writes:
> Hihi, "Ich bin ein Hamburger" :)
> 6 of 11 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> megaera writes:
> I had a discussion about this with a friend of mine who is German, and she
> said that all the major German cities are associated with a type of food.
> Berlin's is the jelly donut. So "Ich bin ein Berliner" means both "I am a
> Berliner" and "I am a jelly donut." Obviously the people to whom JFK was
> speaking knew that in this context, he meant the former.
> 0 of 0 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> MWProds (mwp...@rcn.com) writes:
> For the definitive word on this whole JFK contretemps, see British comic
> Eddie Lizzard's HBO TV special!
> 1 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Julez writes:
> All of you can continue to argue long about this, but as a Dutchman (Holland
> is next to Germany) I speak German.
> - You can use "Ich bin ein Berliner" or "Ich bin Berliner".
> The first one stating that you just live in Berlin, the second one stating
> that you were born and raised there, and feel a true citizen of Berlin.
> - JFK was pronouncing it pretty well being an American. ;)
> - He said it, because he wanted to let people know that now the Berlin Wall
> had been removed, Berlin was free again: citizens of Berlin are citizens of
> the (free) world, and JFK as American was a citizen of the (free) world -
> the connection.
> 2 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> KT writes:
> I am a citizen of Berlin. That's what it translates to.
> 1 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Andybear writes:
> If you take the time to get hold of ANY translation source, you'll find that
> what Kennedy actually said was, "I am a citizen of Berlin."
> 1 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> lasserine (lass...@yahoo.com) writes:
> The actual url for the snopes.com reference is
> http://www.snopes.com/errata/doughnut.htm.
> 1 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> StormRyche (and...@frontiernet.net) writes:
> Methinks it's supposed to be Ich bin EINEN- caps for emphisis -Berliner
>
> 2 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Hommy (homm...@yahoo.de) writes:
> As a matter of fact he had written this sentence on a short note. To be sure
> he speaks it out correctly he wrote it down in "Genglish" (German English)
>
> " Ish bean ine bear leanar"
> 2 of 5 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> athome writes:
> A "Berliner" is a jelly donut, maybe it's a sausage too, but I dont't think
> that (and if it is, it's very uncommon though). A "Frankfurter" is a
> sausage, as is a "Wiener" (Wien is the German name for Vienna, so that
> sausage is actually called "Viennese").
> 0 of 1 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> The Tizzinatrix writes:
> Actually, I had a German professor, a native of Germany who told that story
> and emphasized that it was grammatically incorrect to use ein, or eine, or
> eins before a nationality. "Ich bin ein Franfurter." "Ich bin ein
> Hamburger." "Ich bin ein Berliner." "Ich bin ein Amerikaner." You are more
> than likely to get strange looks from native German speakers (provided this
> is proper German and not everyday, casual conversational German where rules
> are relaxed a bit).
> 1 of 3 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> bateman writes:
> This is wrong- see snopes.com for the real story.
> 1 of 3 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Sara Jo writes:
> All of your comments are moot. Kennedy didn't say "Ich bin EIN Berliner", he
> said "Ich bin I'M Berliner". He accidently stuck an English word in his
> quote. I learned this from the History Channel's Presidential Quiz.
> 2 of 6 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> DarkBunnyofInle (macth...@hotmail.com) writes:
> whether "Berliner" means a cake, a sausage, a donut, or even a Berlin
> citizen, in the context of JFK's speech none of the definitions would make
> sense
> 1 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> orion (cjwi...@hotmail.com) writes:
> Jelly donut? I could have sworn that a Berliner was a kind of sausage native
> to the city, just as a Frankfurter is a type of sausage that originated in
> Frankfurt. Perhaps a Berliner refers all - donut, cake, sausage, whatever -
> but doesn't Berliner more commonly refer to a kind of sausage?
> 0 of 2 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Veronica writes:
> Ich bin Berliner means "I am a Berliner". Ich bin ein Berliner means that he
> is a kind of cake, I think.
> 0 of 4 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Lpeachgirl (jmeru...@home.com) writes:
> This is a real slip-up. There was nothing wrong with his German, but a
> Berliner is a type of jelly doughnut made in Berlin. He probably thought
> that it meant a person from Berlin or something.
> 0 of 6 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
>
> Matt (cea...@netcomuk.co.uk) writes:
> You're both wrong!
> 1)Ich bin BERLINER is the correct way of saying it, NOT ich bin ein
> berliner.
> This means "I am a berliner".
> 2)Berliner is the name of cake, NOT jelly donut.
> 3 of 18 people found this comment helpful. Did you?
I would also add that the way a sentence is phrased in person is not
always accurately captured in print. Even italics may not make the
wording clear.
Joe Riehl
r*@att.net says...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "AnthonyMarsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> news:3F70C4BC...@quik.com...
> > Rob Petrie wrote:
>
> which is not true'?
> You are therefore saying there is a logical (contextual) possibility
> of the translation to be "I am a jelly donut."
>
> > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/kennedy_berliner_quote.html
> > http://www.slipups.com/items/51.html
>
> > --
> > Anthony Marsh
> > The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
>
>
> its 'official' version of the truth, because the interpretation depends upon
> the double translation and context in using 'ein Berliner'. Because he
> wasn't technically a resident of Berlin referring that of himself talking to
> somebody else [and esp. with the 'er' at the end of 'Berlin', which wouldn't
> be necessary to say what city you reside in (i.e., 'Hamburg', not
> 'Hamburger'], the interpretation falls literally to the second meaning: "I
> am a jelly donut."
- that means "I live in Hamburg." Only a fool would think that he meant
"I am a hamburger" Likewise, "Ich bin ein Wiener" means, I live in
Vienna, not "I am a sausage." As several people quoted in those sites
wrote, there was not a Berliner in the crowd who thought that Kennedy was
doing anything but expressing solidarity with Berlin and its citizens
against the communists on the other side of the Wall.
But I suppose it's OK with you that Reagan left a wreath at the Nazi
shrine at Bitburg?
Except there was nothing remotely humorous about that little slip-up.
Kennedy was a serious and educated man. Your attempt to make him seem
silly is pretty rank.
Joe Riehl
>
>
Mitch Todd
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:53:44 -0500, Joe Riehl <re...@louisiana.edu> wrote:
> >Read the websites provided above. If someone says Ich bin ein Hamburger-
> >- that means "I live in Hamburg." Only a fool would think that he meant
> >"I am a hamburger" Likewise, "Ich bin ein Wiener" means, I live in
> >Vienna, not "I am a sausage." As several people quoted in those sites
> >wrote, there was not a Berliner in the crowd who thought that Kennedy was
> >doing anything but expressing solidarity with Berlin and its citizens
> >against the communists on the other side of the Wall.
> I believe you are completely correct.
Not entirely. "I am a citizen of Berlin" translates "Ich bin Berliner." The "ein"
is dropped when you talk about where you're from.; however, when you're
talking in a figurative sense, the article is added. In JFK's case, "Ich bin ein
Berliner" is correct though it might better in this case to translate it as "In
a sense, I am a citizien of Berlin," as opposed to "I am a citzen of Berlin"
in order to make clear the effect of adding the article "ein."
Technically, there's nothing wrong with translating the sentence as "I am a
jelly-filled pastry," so long as you ignore minor details like context and
coherency. Now, if you were accosted on the streets of Bonn by a raving
lunatic shouting "Ich bin ein Berliner!!" while wildly waving an example of
the pastry, you can be reasonably sure that the guy really is saying that he
thinks he's a donut.
MST
Joe Riehl
says...
> >- that means "I live in Hamburg." Only a fool would think that he meant
> >"I am a hamburger" Likewise, "Ich bin ein Wiener" means, I live in
> >Vienna, not "I am a sausage." As several people quoted in those sites
> >wrote, there was not a Berliner in the crowd who thought that Kennedy was
> >doing anything but expressing solidarity with Berlin and its citizens
> >against the communists on the other side of the Wall.
>
>
> >shrine at Bitburg?
>
> blossomed an enduring peace ... We cannot undo the crimes and wars of
> yesterday, nor call the millions back to life ... The one lesson of World
> War II, the lesson of Nazism, is that freedom must always be stronger than
> totalitarianism and that good must always be stronger than evil. The moral
> measure of our two nations will be found in the resolve we show to
> preserve liberty." - Ronald Reagan at Bitburg Air Force base, 5 May 1985.
I'm sure the survivors of the concentration camps run by the SS
(Bitburg was a memorial to the fallen SS) would feel a bit differently.
In fact, I know that they did.
>
> >Except there was nothing remotely humorous about that little slip-up.
>
> Say what you will about Reagan, at least he never reposted over 600 lines
> of quoted material just to add some 20 lines at the end.
You have a funny sense of perspective here. Um, like expressing my
opinion is more heinous than say supplying arms covertly to right-wingers
in Honsuras, or selling missiles to the Eye-atollah?
>
> >Kennedy was a serious and educated man. Your attempt to make him seem
> >silly is pretty rank.
>
> I can assure you that Roy was not attempting to make Kennedy seem silly.
> He was merely attempting to show off his command of dubious "little-known"
> facts.
And you know this how?
>
> David Carson
>
Joe Riehl
jereSPA...@earthlink.net says...
information.
We'll wait.
Joe Riehl
says...
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:34:09 -0500, Joe Riehl <re...@louisiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >In article <6sadnb5F491...@speakeasy.net>, da...@neosoft.com
> >says...
>
>
> >> Say what you will about Reagan, at least he never reposted over 600 lines
> >> of quoted material just to add some 20 lines at the end.
> >
> >You have a funny sense of perspective here.
>
>
> >Um, like expressing my
> >opinion is more heinous than say supplying arms covertly to right-wingers
> >in Honsuras, or selling missiles to the Eye-atollah?
>
> wasn't my point.
>
> >> >Kennedy was a serious and educated man. Your attempt to make him seem
> >> >silly is pretty rank.
> >>
> >> I can assure you that Roy was not attempting to make Kennedy seem silly.
> >> He was merely attempting to show off his command of dubious "little-known"
> >> facts.
> >
> >And you know this how?
>
>
So you are not the reposting Police?
Joe Riehl needlessly reposting a compliment about my intelligence.