The children of William Randolph Hearst?
Terrymelin
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote:
> Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
Obituaries for Randolph Hearst (Patty's father, BTW) mentioned that he
was the last surviving son of William Randolph Hearst ... so, no.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iceman
<20040527124853...@mb-m17.aol.com>:
>Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
Hearst had five sons with this wife, Millicent Willson. They are all
deceased, the last surviving one died in 2000.
Terrymelin
>Obituaries for Randolph Hearst (Patty's father, BTW) mentioned that he
>was the last surviving son of William Randolph Hearst ... so, no.
>--
That's what I thought but I just couldn't recall. Have been reading "The Chief"
-- a superb and massive biography of WRH.
Terry Ellsworth
Barbara Sherrill
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040527124853...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
>
>
Isn't Patsi Hearst dad one of his kids or is she a great grandchild?
Louis Epstein
Patty Hearst's father Randolph Apperson Hearst (1915-2000) was the
last surviving child of WRH Sr.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Bob Feigel
>Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
>
Not an answer to your question, but a sidebar.
When I was growing up in Santa Monica, California, my mom and step-dad
knew WRH's 'friend', Marion Davis - who lived in a huge beachfront
mansion not far from where we lived. They also knew an actor named
Arthur Lake and his wife Pat, who was reputed to be the 'illegitimate'
daughter of MD and WRH. Arthur's claim to fame was his role as
Dagwood.
Arthur & Patricia Lake had several children and I knew a son, Arthur
Lake, Jr. I remember a particular incident (which I won't relate) when
Jr got into some major trouble which was initially reported in the
local SM newspaper (The Evening Outlook). The article was fairly
small, but not only was there no further mention of the incident in
later editions, the story wasn't covered anywhere else.
According to my folks and others, all it took was a phone call from
the Hearst HQ and the incident was swiftly swept under the official
rug. b
"When weaving nets, all threads count." - Charlie Chan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wax-up and drop-in of Surfing's Golden Years: <http://www.surfwriter.net>
Barbara Sherrill
"Louis Epstein" <lep...@shell.fcc.net> wrote in message
news:N4GdnUk7HaT...@fcc.net...
> Barbara Sherrill <bshe...@pdq.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040527124853...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> >> Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Isn't Patsi Hearst dad one of his kids or is she a great grandchild?
>
> Patty Hearst's father Randolph Apperson Hearst (1915-2000) was the
> last surviving child of WRH Sr.
Thank you
The Kentucky Wizard
Amazing, I was unaware they published that book in a more
simplified "Dick and Jane" format.
--
*I'm The Wiz, and I approved this message*
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
Regnirps
charity horse events. I guess she is a grandaughter? Niece? I don't know since
it never came up. Hmmm. I think she was Patty's aunt -- that seems to fire a
neuron.
-- Charlie Springer
Bob Feigel
I've never heard of Phoebe. Arthur 'Jr' (Arthur Patrick Lake - he was
called 'Junior' to differentiate between him and his dad) died in a
car accident around ten years ago. He had three daughters and a son
(yet another Arthur), who, depending on whose story you believe, could
be MD-WRH's great-grandchildren. None of the daughters were named
Phoebe but perhaps the Phoebe you know is one of Arthur Jr's
grandchildren or related to his sister (Rose?) who I believe
predeceased him. I don't know if she had any children. Then again, one
of Arthur Jr's daughter's is named Patricia so maybe Phoebe is somehow
related to her.
BTW - Marion Davies sold her beachfront mansion around 1945. IIRC it
stood empty for a number of years before whoever owned it tore down
the main house and left the guest wings and servant's quarters where a
couple of surfing mates rented rooms. Even though I drove past there a
couple of years ago I can't recall if there's still anything left of
the original mansion. It was just south of Santa Monica Canyon (and
'State Beach') on the Pacific Coast Highway.
The senior Lake's had their own good sized house just down the beach
from the mansion , but IIRC it was a very weird place and one of its
nicknames was the 'Monkey House'. b
Bob Feigel
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
>
>The senior Lake's had their own good sized house just down the beach
>from the mansion , but IIRC it was a very weird place and one of its
>nicknames was the 'Monkey House'. b
One last thing before I escape this particular walk down memory lane:
apropos of an early thread re: Rosebud. I've just recalled that,
according to Arthur Jr, the reason the family was so pissed off at
Orson Wells (whose career was supposed to have suffered because of
it), 'rosebud' was indeed the name WRD used to describe his
grandmother's 'private property'. b
Terrymelin
where famed producer/director Tom Ince was stricken aboard Hearst's yacht and
later died. In the wonderful book I am reading the whole thing is dismissed as
"nonsense" in just a few paragraphs.
Has any truly definitive book been written about the case (as with the William
Desmond Taylor case)?
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>knew WRH's 'friend', Marion Davis - who lived in a huge beachfront
>mansion not far from where we lived.
Very interesting. In the book Marion Davies is heard to bemoan the fact that
her beautiful Santa Monica beachfront mansion was torn down in the 1950s.
They also knew an actor named
>Arthur Lake and his wife Pat, who was reputed to be the 'illegitimate'
>daughter of MD and WRH. Arthur's claim to fame was his role as
>Dagwood.
The author of the massively researched book I am reading says that while it is
possible -- though no evidence has emerged -- that Davies had a couple of
abortions during her releations with WR she absolutely, postively had no
children with him.
>Arthur & Patricia Lake had several children and I knew a son, Arthur
>Lake, Jr. I remember a particular incident (which I won't relate) when
>Jr got into some major trouble which was initially reported in the
>local SM newspaper (The Evening Outlook). The article was fairly
>small, but not only was there no further mention of the incident in
>later editions, the story wasn't covered anywhere else.
>
>According to my folks and others, all it took was a phone call from
>the Hearst HQ and the incident was swiftly swept under the official
>rug. b
Wonderful story.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>apropos of an early thread re: Rosebud. I've just recalled that,
>according to Arthur Jr, the reason the family was so pissed off at
>Orson Wells (whose career was supposed to have suffered because of
>it), 'rosebud' was indeed the name WRD used to describe his
>grandmother's 'private property'. b
As with so many other stories about WR and Marion Davies this one is also
untrue according to the book I am reading.
I guess rumours are always more fun than fact!
Terry Ellsworth
Barbara Sherrill
Terry who wrote the book?
I am reading Benjamen Franklin written by Isaacson. I had just started it
and so far its very interesting.
Jed
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
>The senior Lake's had their own good sized house just down the beach
>from the mansion , but IIRC it was a very weird place and one of its
>nicknames was the 'Monkey House'. b
I heard that Lake invested his movie money quite wisely in real estate
in West LA. I recall he owned a large estate just off San Vicente
Blvd. sw of 26th (above the Riviera Country Club) that was being
parceled off for a large profit in the early 60s. I thought he lived
there but apparently not.
April Cool
<terry...@aol.com> wrote:
The Ince story is persistent and credible. A "wonderful book" about
Hearst should have spent more than a few paragraphs dismissing it as
nonsense, if the story is in fact untrue.
I thought the film about this, The Cat's Meow, was interesting, even if
it's mostly a bucket. (My favorite bit: When Hearst looks up some
phone numbers in his little black book, some of the addresses listed
have zip codes -- in 1924.)
Hyfler/Rosner
>
> I thought the film about this, The Cat's Meow, was
interesting, even if
> it's mostly a bucket. (My favorite bit: When Hearst looks
up some
> phone numbers in his little black book, some of the
addresses listed
> have zip codes -- in 1924.)
That's wonderful. The great auteur Bogdanovich. Chuckle.
Terrymelin
>
David Nasow (sp?). It's about 700 pages and exhaustively researched and
footnoted. He apparently had access to lots of private papers and oral
histories both at San Simeon and elsewhere.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Hearst should have spent more than a few paragraphs dismissing it as
>nonsense, if the story is in fact untrue.
Please provide your evidence that the story is "credible."
The author of this highly acclaimed and definitive biography of WR says "Not
one single piece of evidence has ever surfaced to indicate that Thomas Ince was
murdered yet alone that WRH was involved."
>
>I thought the film about this, The Cat's Meow, was interesting, even if
>it's mostly a bucket.
The film is nonsense if well-made. If WRH wanted to kill Charlie Chaplin
because he was jealous of his attentions to Marion Davies and missed and killed
another man instead why would he have continued to have Chaplin as an intimate
houseguest for the next 15 years?
None of it makes sense including Kirsten Dunst's ridiculous portrayal of Marion
Davies who had an awful stammer although you wouldn't know it from her
portrayal.
Terry Ellsworth
Barbara Sherrill
I am going have to take a look at it the next time I am in barnes and Noble.
That will be this afternoon. I can't recall who in here recommended the
book I am reading now. Just hearing your review is good enough to give this
book a chance also. Thank You Terry.
April Cool
<rel...@rcn.com> wrote:
There are also two-letter state abbreviations like CA. Another deft
touch. (I didn't see any area codes for the phone numbers, though.)
Waterlou4
>according to Arthur Jr, the reason the family was so pissed off at
>Orson Wells (whose career was supposed to have suffered because of
>it), 'rosebud' was indeed the name WRD used to describe his
>>As with so many other stories about WR and Marion Davies this one is also
untrue according to the book I am reading.<< -- Terry Melon
And that would be the Bible? Or do you automatically believe the latest thing
you've read, even after someone else offers a contradictory story?
Waterlou4
Cool
Most, if not all, of the phone numbers should have started with two letters and
might not have had a total of seven characters.
Bill Schenley
> > When I was growing up in Santa Monica, California,
> > my mom and step-dad knew WRH's 'friend', Marion
> > Davis - who lived in a huge beachfront mansion not
> > far from where we lived.
Terry Ellsworth wrote:
> Very interesting. In the book Marion Davies is heard to
> bemoan the fact that her beautiful Santa Monica
> beachfront mansion was torn down in the 1950s.
The mansion (built on land purchased from Will Rogers, and
pictured below) was torn down in 1958. However, the (north)
guest house is still there, and considered a Santa Monica
landmark.
If you were a fan of "Beverly Hills 90210," you may remember
the Beverly Hills Beach Club ... That was the guest house.
I lived in Santa Monica for years (1968-81) ... and thought
*that* house (415 Pacific Coast Highway) was the "mansion."
It wasn't ... But it's pretty freakin' big ... with a
banquet hall, marble pool and another "wading pool" ...
I think Bob was referring to the guest house. It was only
about a fifth of the size of the original mansion ... but I
think to most people it still qualifies as a "mansion." In
the photo below you can see a small part of it on the left.
The actual mansion was more like a Grand Hotel ... It had
well over 100 rooms with 50 bathrooms.
http://www.decofilms.com/mariondavies/homes.htm
Here is a link to the guest house and it's current state:
http://www.smmirror.com/volume5/issue28/council_oks_dev.asp
> > They also knew an actor named Arthur Lake and his
> > wife Pat, who was reputed to be the 'illegitimate'
> > daughter of MD and WRH. Arthur's claim to fame
> > was his role as Dagwood.
> The author of the massively researched book I am reading
> says that while it is possible -- though no evidence has
> emerged -- that Davies had a couple of abortions during
> her releations with WR she absolutely, postively had no
> children with him.
FROM: The Wikipedia Encyclopedia ~
"During the lifetime of Davies' niece Patricia
Lake (née Van Cleeve), the latter was said to
be the daughter of Marion Davies's sister Rose
Davies and her first husband, George Van
Cleeve. (Patricia married Arthur Lake, who
played Dagwood in numerous films.) After
Patricia's death, her family announced that she
was in fact the daughter of Marion Davies and
William Randolph Hearst, though this claim
does not appear to have been verified
independently. However, Patricia and her
husband are buried with Marion Davies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Davies
April Cool
<wate...@aol.com> wrote:
Surely. I only meant that they didn't compound the screw-ups with the
states and the zip codes by adding area codes to the phone numbers,
too.
Bob Feigel
wrote:
>Bob Feigel wrote:
>
>> > When I was growing up in Santa Monica, California,
>> > my mom and step-dad knew WRH's 'friend', Marion
>> > Davis - who lived in a huge beachfront mansion not
>> > far from where we lived.
>
>Terry Ellsworth wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. In the book Marion Davies is heard to
>> bemoan the fact that her beautiful Santa Monica
>> beachfront mansion was torn down in the 1950s.
>
>The mansion (built on land purchased from Will Rogers, and
>pictured below) was torn down in 1958. However, the (north)
>guest house is still there, and considered a Santa Monica
>landmark.
>
>If you were a fan of "Beverly Hills 90210," you may remember
>the Beverly Hills Beach Club ... That was the guest house.
I didn't know about the connection with Will Rogers, but the mansion
was next to Will Rogers State Beach.
>I lived in Santa Monica for years (1968-81) ... and thought
>*that* house (415 Pacific Coast Highway) was the "mansion."
>It wasn't ... But it's pretty freakin' big ... with a
>banquet hall, marble pool and another "wading pool" ...
>
>I think Bob was referring to the guest house. It was only
>about a fifth of the size of the original mansion ... but I
>think to most people it still qualifies as a "mansion." In
>the photo below you can see a small part of it on the left.
>The actual mansion was more like a Grand Hotel ... It had
>well over 100 rooms with 50 bathrooms.
>
>http://www.decofilms.com/mariondavies/homes.htm
>
>Here is a link to the guest house and it's current state:
>
>http://www.smmirror.com/volume5/issue28/council_oks_dev.asp
Thanks for those links. I remember the 'big' house when it was still
there. It looked mighty impressive from any angle, but one of my
favourite views was looking down from Palisades Park.
Incidentally, there was/is a public toilet not far from that lookout
and that's where Arthur Jr got into the trouble I alluded to earlier.
It was also across the road from the apartment where Stan Laurel spent
his last years. It turned out that this toilet was one of those places
where gay guys could pick each other up. I found this out the hard way
when my before school job was delivering the LA Times (every morning
starting at 4:00am) and I got 'approached' by a guy in a business suit
one morning while taking a wiz (no offence intended, Wiz). Scared the
holybejezus out of me.
Anyway, one night, Art and a mutual acquaintance (better add:
"allegedly") lured some unsuspecting guy into the toilet on some
pretext, then took his money and beat the shit out of him. A much more
cosmetic version of the incident appeared in the Evening Outlook, but
the story went no further and any charges against the Art and Mike
were dropped when the victim suddenly refused to cooperate any
further.
After the big house was demolished the two similarly sized main
building left were always referred to as the servant's quarters and
guest house. As Bill sez, they were both big enough to be considered
mansions in themselves. There's a photo of surfer, Mike Doyle, and his
classic Woody Wagon in front of one of the buildings on my website,
just below John Comer's painting of the California Street Incline &
PCH: http://www.surfwriter.net/cruisin1.htm .
Regnirps
>I've never heard of Phoebe.
Phoebe was the name of WRH's mother and also a grand daughter who lives in
Woodside, Phoeby Hearst Cooke. She owns and raises a bunch of famous vaulting
horses and does some charity horse stuff for kids. I knew someone who would
house sit for her and helped out a couple of times. After that I ran into her
once in a while in the Menlo Park area.
There is a lot of horsey activity in Woodside. I knew another woman who trained
dressage horses that look like they stepped right out of a Greek legend, and
they knew how to skip!
-- Charlie Springer
Waterlou4
> and
> might not have had a total of seven characters.
>>Surely. I only meant that they didn't compound the screw-ups with the
states and the zip codes by adding area codes to the phone numbers,
too.<< -- April Cool
I was only wondering what you saw.
Regnirps
>I thought the film about this, The Cat's Meow, was interesting, even if
>it's mostly a bucket. (My favorite bit: When Hearst looks up some
>phone numbers in his little black book, some of the addresses listed
>have zip codes -- in 1924.)
That is nearly as good as Roman soldiers with wrist watches.
I can't help bu notice how the modern directors (Spielberg, etc) doing a period
piece have all the cars shinny and new and from the current year. It could be
1940 and not a Model T or Model A to be seen.
I think the verbal equivalent is probably Tony Curtis with "Yonda lies da
castle of my fahda."
-- Charlie Springer
Bill Schenley
My grandmother's phone number ... until the mid-50s ... was
6298.
Terrymelin
>thing
>you've read, even after someone else offers a contradictory story?
>
I believe something that has been extensively researched by a scholar. Not
gossip reported on a internet newsgroup.
Call me crazy.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Patricia's death, her family announced that she
>was in fact the daughter of Marion Davies and
>William Randolph Hearst, though this claim
>does not appear to have been verified
No, and David Nasaw says it is absolutely untrue.
Considering the estate is worth over $5 billion and no claim has been made I
would tend to believe the research and not the gossip.
Terry Ellsworth
Pete Peeve!
> Call me crazy.
>
>
No prob. You're a psychotic fucking lunatic.
Barbara Sherrill
I just read about David Nasaw, it seems he did do his homework. According to
the NY Writers Insitute web page
http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/nasawdavid.html ; Nasaw used buisness
and personal papers of HRW to write this book. From what else I found when I
*googled* him was: He currently chair the doctoral histroy program at City
University of New York.
He seems to be very credible and respected.
Bob Feigel
Rumours were grist to the mill back then and I have no reason to
believe that they still aren't. What removes this assertion a short
distance from that arena is the Lake family's insistence that the
rumour was true. Arthur Lake 'Jr' was hardly the most trustworthy of
sources, but he was closer to the main players in the saga than anyone
else I heard the rumour from. According to him, MD was his grandmother
and WRH his grandfather, and I believe his children have maintained
this position over the years.
What makes Arthur Jr's incident with the law interesting to me (both
he and his accomplice had been arrested by police), is not that the
charges were dropped, but that the news story was dropped. That the
Hearst family would have gone to the trouble of using their influence
to make sure the story got no further begs the question: Why?
I agree, rumours are always more fun than fact, and so are unsolved
mysteries. I'm curious to know how the book you're reading deals with
the Lakes and their side of the story? b
Bob Feigel
Privately, the Lake family was saying that Pat was MD's and WRH's
daughter long before either she or Arthur (senior) died. Whether this
never got as far as the media or the media chose to ignore it is just
another part of the mystery. IIRC, Patricia Lake inherited quite a
significant financial legacy from MD's estate, plus personal belongs
such as jewellery. b
April Cool
<regn...@aol.com> wrote:
> I can't help bu notice how the modern directors (Spielberg, etc)
> doing a period piece have all the cars shinny and new and from the
> current year. It could be 1940 and not a Model T or Model A to be
> seen.
One of my peeves (no offense, Pete). The cars are always spic and
span, and everything about them is perfect. That worked in
Pleasantville, but it doesn't work in any other film. Even private
passenger cars in WW2 films, whether the films were made now or back
then, are factory-fresh perfect. Impossible!
> I think the verbal equivalent is probably Tony Curtis with "Yonda lies da
> castle of my fahda."
I think that's from The Prince Who Was a Thief. I remember it as
"Yonda lies the palace of my fadah, da caliph." They used to call them
Ali Baba films. I've read that there were so many of them made because
they weren't controversial, i.e., political. Nobody could point a
finger at an Ali Baba film. Same goes for all those period-piece
musicals like For Me and My Gal.
And Tony Curtis is one of a kind. Nobody else could have done that
kind of stuff and gotten away with it.
April Cool
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
Why is this still a mystery? Can't they just do a DNA test or two and
prove that this one and that one are blood-related, and by how much?
Bob Feigel
Good point! Never thought of that. Assuming the surviving family
members would agree to a test and that DNA from MD and WRH was
available, would the DNA from great-grandchildren (eg: Arthur Jr's
children) be conclusive? It's an area about which I know next to
nothing. b
Regnirps
>One of my peeves (no offense, Pete). The cars are always spic and
>span, and everything about them is perfect. That worked in
>Pleasantville, but it doesn't work in any other film. Even private
>passenger cars in WW2 films, whether the films were made now or back
>then, are factory-fresh perfect. Impossible!
Yep. In 1940 a Model A is only 10 years old. An the furnishings and tableware
in a 1950's Eichler don't have all come from a catalog for that year. Where the
heck is grandma's rocker and the old couch and hutch?
>> I think the verbal equivalent is probably Tony Curtis with "Yonda lies da
>> castle of my fahda."
>I think that's from The Prince Who Was a Thief.
You might be confusing it with Tarus Bulba, which impressed me greatly as a
child. He used some of his circus background and did some real Douglas
Fairbanks stuff.
I was thinking of The Black Prince of Foulmouth (Now I have to check IMDB
...... The Black Shield of Falworth, Janet Leigh was hot! Is this the first
movie they did?) IMDB says you are right and it is "Yonder lies da castle of my
fadder da King."
-- Charlie Springer
April Cool
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:33:44 -0400, April Cool
> <firsto...@fools.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >In article <5k1ib0l19hptc4acg...@4ax.com>, Bob Feigel
> ><b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I agree, rumours are always more fun than fact, and so are unsolved
> >> mysteries. I'm curious to know how the book you're reading deals with
> >> the Lakes and their side of the story? b
> >
> >
> >Why is this still a mystery? Can't they just do a DNA test or two and
> >prove that this one and that one are blood-related, and by how much?
>
> Good point! Never thought of that. Assuming the surviving family
> members would agree to a test and that DNA from MD and WRH was
> available, would the DNA from great-grandchildren (eg: Arthur Jr's
> children) be conclusive? It's an area about which I know next to
> nothing. b
You can conclude that two or more individuals had the same grandfather,
and since you can identify Hearst's known grandchildren, anyone else
bearing the same markers would necessarily be another grandchild. You
wouldn't need samples from Hearst or Davies to determine that.
James Neibaur
regn...@aol.com wrote on 5/29/04 10:35 PM:
> (Now I have to check IMDB
> ...... The Black Shield of Falworth, Janet Leigh was hot! Is this the first
> movie they did?)
I think Tony Curtis and Janet Leigh's first movie together was Houdini.
JN
Joe Mackey
>I can't help bu notice how the modern directors (Spielberg, etc) doing a period
>piece have all the cars shinny and new and from the current year. It could be
>1940 and not a Model T or Model A to be seen.
What annoys me about period films along this line is it seems "one
old car is the same as another" and a film set in 1955 there are cars
from 1957 and later...
And being a old radio fan is a film set in the early '30s where a
radio is playing a show that wasnt even on the air for several more
years.
Joe (back to lurk mode) Mackey
Bob Feigel
<firsto...@fools.com.invalid> wrote:
Learning curve time: so ... you could compare DNA from Patty Hearst's
children, for example, and look for 'markers' in DNA taken from Arthur
Patrick Lake's children that would tell you whether or not they had
the same great-grandfather? (MD's & WRH's purported grandchildren are
both deceased). b
The Kentucky Wizard
Crazy is one word I haven't called you that I can ever recall.
Thanks for giving me another word to define you.
--
*I'm The Wiz, and I approved this message*
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
Waterlou4
Cool
Why? Because sometimes people refuse to give a DNA sample, that's why.
One of these days refusal to fork over DNA-laden material will have the same
effect as taking the Fifth Amendment, and that will suck.
Waterlou4
old car is the same as another" and a film set in 1955 there are cars
from 1957 and later...
And being a old radio fan is a film set in the early '30s where a
radio is playing a show that wasnt even on the air for several more
Yeah, and when "Happy Days" first came on TV, it drove some of us real 1950s
relics nuts for the same reason.
April Cool
<joemac...@adelphia.net> wrote:
I think they just don't care enough to get it right. They figure we're
too dumb to notice, or else if we do notice, we're just
micro-criticizing what they're doing.
One of my favorites is seeing modern Canadian flags in period movies.
The Way We Were has one flying from the Plaza Hotel. And they almost
always use 50-star U.S. flags when they need a 48.
I also read somewhere once that there's a movie where Abe Lincoln has a
telephone on his desk. It was one of those two-piece antique
telephones, but still.
Hoodoo
>Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
For whatever it is worth, and without reading/browsing the content of
the large number of follow-up comments in this discussion thread, I'll
state an observation included in a book I purchased at the time that I
toured San Simeon, and attributed to 'Willie', "Luxury is worth what
you can afford to pay for it."
Terrymelin
>distance from that arena is the Lake family's insistence that the
>rumour was true. Arthu
That's true but I'll still take the word of someone who exhaustively researched
the subject.
Plus the only two people who really know are dead and weren't likely to repeat
a thing like that to other people.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>and WRH his grandfather, and I believe his children have maintained
>this position over the years.
I suppose they can make that claim all they want but I do find it curious that
if they really believe they have never tried to make it "legal."
It would be very easy with DNA testing today. I think that probably tells us
everything we need to know today.
There are also birth record and none exist to show that Marion Davies ever had
a child -- with anyone.
> That the
>Hearst family would have gone to the trouble of using their influence
>to make sure the story got no further begs the question: Why?
I haven't gotten to that point in the book yet but I suspect that story is not
true either.
They could solve this question easily. Why haven't they? Meaning the Lake
family.
>I agree, rumours are always more fun than fact, and so are unsolved
>mysteries. I'm curious to know how the book you're reading deals with
>the Lakes and their side of the story? b
When I get there I'll let you know. But early on in the book he is quite
definitive that Davies and Hearst never had a child together.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>prove that this one and that one are blood-related, and by how much?
>
Well, of course, which makes you wonder why the Lake family won't do so. It
would be very, very easy.
I suspect that perhaps they might prefer to believe the legend rather than the
truth?
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>members would agree to a test and that DNA from MD and WRH was
>available, would the DNA from great-grandchildren (eg: Arthur Jr's
>children) be conclusive? It's an area about which I know next to
>nothing. b
>
>
Yep, look at the Jefferson case. Or the case of Prince Philip whose DNA was
used to determine if the bones found in Russia were those of the Czar and his
family.
Terry Ellsworth
Hoodoo
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
>>The mansion (built on land purchased from Will Rogers, and
>>pictured below) was torn down in 1958. However, the (north)
>>guest house is still there, and considered a Santa Monica
>>landmark.
>>If you were a fan of "Beverly Hills 90210," you may remember
>>the Beverly Hills Beach Club ... That was the guest house.
>I didn't know about the connection with Will Rogers, but the mansion
>was next to Will Rogers State Beach.
And 'who could imagine' that Frank Zappa would live in, and sponsor
'freak outs' at, the log cabin formerly owned by Tom Mix which had a
tunnel connecting it to the Harry Houdini estate?:
http://www.oversight.com/soFein/tourBook/ppBookZ.html
http://www.crosbyentertainment.com/own_a_piece_of_hollywood_history.htm
http://www.jackboulware.com/treehouse.html
http://www.classicbands.com/zappa.html
http://users.cableaz.com/~lantz/pm2001.html
Brigid Nelson
Is that really possible. The investigators I've seen on the discovery
channel are usually reduced to comparing the mitochondrial DNA that
passes from the mother. I suppose that the decendents could be tested
to see if they have a common female ancestor.
This stuff seems to change daily though, so maybe what you say is possible.
brigid
Bob Feigel
>>According to him, MD was his grandmother
>>and WRH his grandfather, and I believe his children have maintained
>>this position over the years.
>
>I suppose they can make that claim all they want but I do find it curious that
>if they really believe they have never tried to make it "legal."
Although the family privately maintained that position for as long as
I'd known them, it was only made public *after* Pat's death by Arthur
Patrick. They knew there was absolutely no chance of any sort of
financial benefit from the Hearst family and I don't think that had
anything to do with it. The Lakes had already benefited mightily from
MD's will, they had money coming out of their ears. So there was no
point in making it 'legal'.
>It would be very easy with DNA testing today. I think that probably tells us
>everything we need to know today.
>
>There are also birth record and none exist to show that Marion Davies ever had
>a child -- with anyone.
>
>> That the
>>Hearst family would have gone to the trouble of using their influence
>>to make sure the story got no further begs the question: Why?
>
>I haven't gotten to that point in the book yet but I suspect that story is not
>true either.
That the one part of the story that I absolutely know for certain is
true - up to a point. Arthur & Mike were arrested (I knew one of the
police officers involved). The story did appear in the Evening Outlook
(I read it). The charges were dropped after the victim withdrew his
cooperation (same policeman).
The only thing that could be debatable is phone calls from WRH Jr.
That I heard from the former editor of a local newspaper who was very
well connected within the 'establishment' and also happened to be my
step-dad. It's possible his source could have been wrong, but
considering I also heard all of this separately from Arthur and his
accomplice and that their stories tallied with the others, I tend to
believe that, for whatever reason, Hearst did intervene on their
behalf.
>They could solve this question easily. Why haven't they? Meaning the Lake
>family.
>
>>I agree, rumours are always more fun than fact, and so are unsolved
>>mysteries. I'm curious to know how the book you're reading deals with
>>the Lakes and their side of the story? b
>
>When I get there I'll let you know. But early on in the book he is quite
>definitive that Davies and Hearst never had a child together.
That will be very interesting. Thank you. b
danny burstein
>Although the family privately maintained that position for as long as
>I'd known them, it was only made public *after* Pat's death by Arthur
>Patrick.
So Arthur Patrick is Yet Another Rich Guy who got away with murder.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Terrymelin
>I'd known them, it was only made public *after* Pat's death by Arthur
>Patrick. They knew there was absolutely no chance of any sort of
>financial benefit from the Hearst family and I don't think that had
>anything to do with it. The Lakes had already benefited mightily from
>MD's will, they had money coming out of their ears. So there was no
>point in making it 'legal'.
That sounds like justification to me. Of course, after 1916 or 1917 Marion
Davies was a very public person whose every move was covered by the press. When
was Patricia Lake born? It would be very easy to discover if there was ever a 9
month period when Marion Davies was out of the public view and birth records
are easy to find.
The fact that someone researched a book about the subject for 7 years and never
found a shred of evidence either on paper or in any of Marion's papers or any
of her friends oral histories I think is fairly definitive.
Terrymelin
>>definitive that Davies and Hearst never had a child together.
>
>That will be very interesting. Thank you. b
There is only one entry for Pat Lake in the 696 page book. It is in the
epilogue on page 605. It refer's to the people at Marion Davies' bedside when
she died. Her husband, her sister Rose, her nephew Charlie Lederer and her
niece, Rose's daughter Pat Lake.
That is it. I suspect that in a book as exhaustively researched as this one the
author is making a telling comment about how insignificant and untrue this
story is.
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <7tjkb0pslfrovsnrt...@4ax.com> Bob Feigel <b...@surfwriter.net.not> writes:
>
>>Although the family privately maintained that position for as long as
>>I'd known them, it was only made public *after* Pat's death by Arthur
>>Patrick.
>
>So Arthur Patrick is Yet Another Rich Guy who got away with murder.
Arthur Patrick got away with a lot of things, but I don't think murder
was one of them. But I once knew a "rich guy" who *did* shoot his
father, changed guns when the first one jammed, then followed him down
their front drive clubbing him with the second rifle when that one
jammed and was still trying to kill him when the police arrived. On
his deathbed, the father made the mayor and chief of police promise
that his son would not be prosecuted for his death. However, the son
*was* charged with discharging a firearm within city limits, given a
fine and sent back to his officer's training course in the military. b
Terrymelin
William Randolph Heast and Marion Davies.
It has been reported to me by a very reliable source that she was born in 1907
or 1908. It would have been physically impossible for Marion Davies to have
given birth to this child as she was only 10 or 11 years old at the time.
Marion Davies has been conclusively established to have been born in 1897.
She also never even met William Randolph Hearst until 1915 and they didn't
begin dating until 1916 or early 1917 which was a full 7-9 years after the baby
was born.
I'm sure that's why the author doesn't deal with it in his book because it is
completely and totally ludicrous.
Terry Ellsworth
Joe Mackey
<firsto...@fools.com.invalid> wrote:
>> What annoys me about period films along this line is it seems "one
>> old car is the same as another" and a film set in 1955 there are cars
>> from 1957 and later...
>I think they just don't care enough to get it right. They figure we're
>too dumb to notice
Or, _they_ are too dumb to know the difference.
>I also read somewhere once that there's a movie where Abe Lincoln has a
>telephone on his desk. It was one of those two-piece antique
>telephones, but still.
There's a cable channel, one I seldom watch, I want to say E!, that
had a documentary on some gangster. (As you can tell I either wasn't
paying attention or that interested in the show) and every so often
they had a clip of two people representing the characters with a crawl
reading "This is a re-enactment". Well, Duh! I always thought
gangsters always carried movie equipment with them all the time to
record everything they said and did. :/
Joe
Bob Feigel
Whether or not Patricia Lake was the illegitimate daughter of MD and
WRH isn't something in which I have a personal stake, but having known
the Lake family and something of the background, I do find the subject
interesting. IMO the senior Lake's were nice, simple, generous people
who were too easily manipulated by family and 'friends'. On the other
hand, Arthur Patrick was anything *but* nice and one of the most
loathsome individuals with whom I've ever had the misfortune of being
acquainted.
However, considering Pat Lake's close relationship with Marion Davies
and Marion Davies' close relationship with Hearst, I find the book's
single entry for Pat telling in another way that makes me wonder why.
According to the review:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K5EE12F68
"Of course, Mr. Nasaw also regales the reader with Hearst's celebrated
love affair with the chorus girl and film star Marion Davies, with
whom Hearst openly consorted for more than three decades, even though
he was married and had a family. By telling this story with only
modest embellishment, Mr. Nasaw grants his readers the pleasure of
arriving at their own conclusions."
I'm trying to find a NZ source for the book (Amazon is fine but the
shipping charges can offset any price advantage). When I've had a
chance to read the it, and its treatment of the Hearst/Davies
relationship, I may revisit the subject. b
Waterlou4
had
The absence of proof does not prove the contrary.
>>They could solve this question easily. Why haven't they? Meaning the Lake
family.<< -- Terry Melon
Just to satisfy YOUR curiosity? Sheesh.
>>. . .early on in the book he is quite
definitive that Davies and Hearst never had a child together.<< -- Terry Melon
Your remarks all sound like this is the first book you have ever read.
April Cool
<wate...@aol.com> wrote:
I am reminded that there is no evidence, none, that Al Capone ordered
the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. But he did it. Just because there
is no evidence of something does not mean it is evidence of nothing,
which is a less elegant way of saying what Waterlou said above.
I would be very surprised if any possible evidence pointing to Ince's
murder could have been found even a day after Hearst's boat docked.
And the Hearsts probably would have considered any baby born to Davies
a private matter.
James Neibaur
b...@surfwriter.net.not wrote on 5/31/04 12:46 AM:
> IMO the senior Lake's were nice, simple, generous people
> who were too easily manipulated by family and 'friends'. On the other
> hand, Arthur Patrick was anything *but* nice and one of the most
> loathsome individuals with whom I've ever had the misfortune of being
> acquainted.
Didn't Arthur and Pat have a daughter --- named Marion?
JN
Terrymelin
>shipping charges can offset any price advantage). When I've had a
>chance to read the it, and its treatment of the Hearst/Davies
>relationship, I may revisit the subject. b
>
His discussion of the their relationship is exhaustive to say the least. What
it isn't is gossipy. He doesn't repeat stories for which there is no evidence
whatsoever. He is a serious scholar. I appreciate that in a biographer. Just
because some family has made some claim down the years -- for which they have
or are unable to provide one scintilla of evidence -- doesn't mean it should be
treated seriously by scholars or accepted as fact. No matter how nice that
family may be.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>had
>a child -- with anyone.<< -- Terry Melon
>
>The absence of proof does not prove the contrary.
This is a completely ridiculous thing to say.
You obviously are not a scholar nor do you have any idea what scholarship is.
>
>Your remarks all sound like this is the first book you have ever read.
>
You are obviously not playing with a full deck. Plonk.
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
wrote:
Yes. Marion Rose (Marion after Davies, Rose after Marion's mother and
the sister who was 'officially' Pat's birth mother). I don't know
whether or not she's still living or if she had any children. I Never
met her but understand that she was quite different from her brother.
Bob Feigel
In general I'd agree with you, but I'd like to read three books before
I start coming to any conclusion: the book you've read (The Chief by
David Nasaw); a book I've just discovered while doing some further
research on the net: Marion Davies - a biography by Fred Lawrence
Guiles; and another new discovery, The Times We Had - Life With
William Randolph Hearst, by Marion Davies. I haven't thought about all
this in many years, but now that the subject has come up, I'm finding
it fascinating. b
Terrymelin
>the sister who was 'officially' Pat's birth mother). I don't know
>whether or not she's still living or if she had any children. I Never
>met her but understand that she was quite different from her brother.
>b
In all fairness, until there is any -- and I repeat -- any credible evidence to
the contrary Rose is Pat's mother. Pure and simple.
Considering the custody battle that ensued between Rose and her husband George
over custody of Pat -- in which George won custody becaust of Rose's drunkeness
-- it seems inconceivable that WR and Marion were her parents.
I cannot conceive of a situation in which WR and Marion would have permitted --
considering the almighty power they are alleged to have had by members of this
ng -- another man to have gained custody of their own daughter from Rose.
I realize it is fantastic and gossipy to believe the rumors -- despite the
mountain of evidence to the contrary -- but it does seem awfully odd.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>I start coming to any conclusion: the book you've read (The Chief by
>David Nasaw); a book I've just discovered while doing some further
>research on the net: Marion Davies - a biography by Fred Lawrence
>Guiles; and another new discovery, The Times We Had - Life With
>William Randolph Hearst, by Marion Davies. I haven't thought about all
>this in many years, but now that the subject has come up, I'm finding
>it fascinating. b
I've read all three -- two of the ones you mentioned are more than 30 years old
and do not have the benefit of modern scholarship and modern archives which Mr.
Nasaw had access to.
Neither sheds any light or provides any evidence that Pat Lake was WR and
Marion Davies' daughter.
All the available evidence points strongly to the contrary.
Terry Ellsworth
James Neibaur
b...@surfwriter.net.not wrote on 5/31/04 4:34 PM:
> Yes. Marion Rose (Marion after Davies, Rose after Marion's mother and
> the sister who was 'officially' Pat's birth mother). I don't know
> whether or not she's still living or if she had any children. I Never
> met her but understand that she was quite different from her brother.
I knew Arthur Lake pretty well, having done a couple of stories on his film
career. He was amazingly similar to the Dagwood character in real life. I
always understood his wife was only a couple of years younger, but
apparently Pat was born in the 1920s. I can't imagine that she was 20 years
younger than Arthur, and recall that when she died in 1993 she was quite old
-- not merely in her sixties.
I guess my memory must be mixing things up (again)
JN
Bob Feigel
wrote:
>in article 1r7nb0l8av9ddmoa7...@4ax.com, Bob Feigel at
I only met Arthur senior a few times, but I agree. He was Dagwood
Bumstead personified. Or was it vice-versa? Actually I wasn't aware
that 'Artie' (as he was sometimes called) was that much older than
Pat. When I saw them together they both acted like a couple of love
struck kids.
What surprised me to learn was that Marion Davies was only 18 when she
became involved with WRH - who was in his fifties! From what I've
read, Arthur Lake was 82 when he died in 1987 and Pat, who died in
1993 was either 70 or 73 - depending on which DOB to believe. So that
would be a fifteen to seventeen year age difference. According to the
IMDb Arthur was born 0n 17 April 1905. Other sources place Pat's DOB
as either 1920 or 1923. That in itself is curious. b
Bob Feigel
Just placed an order with Amazon for the three books plus a couple of
others and an audio CD (Twentieth Century Contrasts) which features a
composition by Henri Pensis who also conducted the Sinfonietta and is
married to one of my favourite cousins.
BTW - All the books were new except Marion Davies; a biography by Fred
Lawrence Guiles. It cost me USD3.95 for a used hardback in "very good"
condition and USD9.79 P&P. Now all I have to do is wait ... for
Amazon's shipment *and* my credit card bill! b
The Kentucky Wizard
Of course it is. He colored in all the other books.
--
*I'm The Wiz, and I approved this message*
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
Waterlou4
old
and do not have the benefit of modern scholarship and modern archives which Mr.
It's good to read books that were published closer to contemporaneously with
the events in question. Bob is right when he says he likes to read 3 books on
a subject before forming any opinions.
If you pay attention, you will see that modern books rely heavily on material
in the old books, with their often-conflicting first-hand accounts.
Example: You can't understand Warren Harding and his administration simply by
reading "The Shadow of Blooming Grove." You have to scour secondhand
bookstores and dig up all the other stuff written at the time, and boy is some
of it interesting and self-serving!
You also can't fully understand Monica Lewinsky until you've read "The
President's Daughter" by Nan Britton.
Waterlou4
Calling me stupid doesn't make you smart.
Terrymelin
>Lawrence Guiles. It cost me USD3.95 for a used hardback in "very good"
>condition and USD9.79 P&P. Now all I have to do is wait ... for
>Amazon's shipment *and* my credit card bill! b
Good for you! I still have my first edition of that book and I think you paid
about the same that I did more than 30 years ago!
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>IMDb Arthur was born 0n 17 April 1905. Other sources place Pat's DOB
>as either 1920 or 1923. That in itself is curious. b
Didn't they have different fathers? Arthur from Rose's first marriage and Pat
from her second to George Van Cleve?
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
I'm not clear about your reference to Arthur but from what little I've
read (so far), Pat's father was supposed to have been Van Cleve -
apparently, she was married six times. When I was growing up there
were a number of family's and individuals around that were considered
'eccentric' and the Douras and Lake families seemed well suited to the
role. b
Bob Feigel
Thanks. That makes me feel a lot better about paying more for the
shipping than the book itself. USD 13.74 really isn't much to pay for
a hardback (with dust cover). The quality of books was much better
back then as well. b
Bob Feigel
<b...@surfwriter.net.not> wrote:
>On 01 Jun 2004 13:41:40 GMT, terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote:
>
>>>According to the
>>>IMDb Arthur was born 0n 17 April 1905. Other sources place Pat's DOB
>>>as either 1920 or 1923. That in itself is curious. b
>>
>>Didn't they have different fathers? Arthur from Rose's first marriage and Pat
>>from her second to George Van Cleve?
>>
>>Terry Ellsworth
>
>I'm not clear about your reference to Arthur but from what little I've
>read (so far), Pat's father was supposed to have been Van Cleve -
>apparently, she was married six times.
Opps. By "she" I meant Rose, Marion's sister and, supposedly, Pat's
mother. b
Terrymelin
He was her father which is why he kidnapped Pat and kept her hidden from Rose
for five years. Then when he was found he sued Rose for custody and won because
of her drunkenness.
Can't believe if Hearst was her father that he would have allowed this.
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
There are two other theories I've heard about this, both based on the
assumption that Pat was MD's and WRH's illegitimate daughter.
The first was that Van Cleve's motives were rather less than
altruistic and more to do with financial gain than concern for Pat's
welfare.
The second was that Van Cleve had MD's and WRH's blessing and
financial encouragement because they were concerned about Pat's
welfare.
Remember, if WRH and MD actually were Pat's birth parents and, for
whatever reason, did not want to publicly acknowledge it, they would
not want to have been seen taking an active role in this affair. But
having said that, I understand that Marion Davies played a much larger
part in Pat's life than Rose ever did - including Pat's childhood and
later on. b
Terrymelin
>assumption that Pat was MD's and WRH's illegitimate daughter.
>
>The first was that Van Cleve's motives were rather less than
>altruistic and more to do with financial gain than concern for Pat's
>welfare.
>
>The second was that Van Cleve had MD's and WRH's blessing and
>financial encouragement because they were concerned about Pat's
>welfare.
>
>Remember, if WRH and MD actually were Pat's birth parents and, for
>whatever reason, did not want to publicly acknowledge it, they would
>not want to have been seen taking an active role in this affair. But
>having said that, I understand that Marion Davies played a much larger
>part in Pat's life than Rose ever did - including Pat's childhood and
>later on. b
She also did in the life of her nephew Charles Lederer. They were both her only
relatives and I don't find anything suspect about that at all.
I'm sorry but I don't find that plausible at all. Especially considering that
Marion's friends all said that she desperately would have wanted to have WR's
child and "would have worn it around her neck like a prize."
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
>>There are two other theories I've heard about this, both based on the
>>assumption that Pat was MD's and WRH's illegitimate daughter.
>>
>>The first was that Van Cleve's motives were rather less than
>>altruistic and more to do with financial gain than concern for Pat's
>>welfare.
>>
>>The second was that Van Cleve had MD's and WRH's blessing and
>>financial encouragement because they were concerned about Pat's
>>welfare.
>>
>>Remember, if WRH and MD actually were Pat's birth parents and, for
>>whatever reason, did not want to publicly acknowledge it, they would
>>not want to have been seen taking an active role in this affair. But
>>having said that, I understand that Marion Davies played a much larger
>>part in Pat's life than Rose ever did - including Pat's childhood and
>>later on. b
>
>She also did in the life of her nephew Charles Lederer. They were both her only
>relatives and I don't find anything suspect about that at all.
Didn't MD leave Charles Lederer a portion of her sizeable estate along
with Patricia Lake?
>I'm sorry but I don't find that plausible at all. Especially considering that
>Marion's friends all said that she desperately would have wanted to have WR's
>child and "would have worn it around her neck like a prize."
At this point I don't know what is or isn't plausible. I'm simply
dragging up old memories and memory is a fickle muse - especially when
trying to differentiate between fact, rumour or outright fiction. I
hope those books get here soon. b
Terrymelin
>with Patricia Lake?
>
Yes, she did.
Terry Ellsworth
Bob Feigel
>Do any of the children of William Randolph Hearst survive?
>
Another Hearst legacy:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hearst5jun05.story
THE NATION
Hearst, State Tentatively Agree to Coastal Land Preservation
The company would sell 1,400 acres of shoreline and be allowed to
build a hotel and 27 homes.
By Kenneth R. Weiss
Times Staff Writer
June 5, 2004
California officials and Hearst Corp. have reached a tentative
agreement on a $95-million deal to preserve most of the rolling hills
and grassy tablelands of the Hearst Ranch around San Simeon, which
have long served as a picturesque gateway to Big Sur.
Under the proposed accord, which California Resources Secretary Mike
Chrisman announced after months of negotiations, the state would buy
about 1,400 acres west of Highway 1. The purchase would make public
about 13 miles of the state's best-known undeveloped stretch of coast
— a land of cliffs, rocky outcrops and short beaches colonized by
lounging elephant seals.
Hearst Corp. would retain ownership of four parcels along the coast,
totaling five miles of shoreline. At the base of one of those parcels
— San Simeon Point — the company, owned by a family foundation, would
retain the right to build a 100-room hotel based on architectural
plans of Julia Morgan, who designed Hearst Castle.
The corporation would allow some public access across each of the
parcels by way of the California Coastal Trail, a work in progress
that is designed to run the length of the state.
On the rest of the roughly 120-square-mile cattle ranch that surrounds
Hearst Castle, a "conservation easement" would prevent most
development. The ranch reaches from the coastline far into the forests
and rangeland of the Santa Lucia Mountains in northern San Luis Obispo
County.
Hearst Corp. would keep the right to build 27 homes deep in the
canyons so long as they were out of view of the highway and Hearst
Castle, which is owned and operated by state park officials. The homes
are presumably for family members, but could be sold to outsiders,
according to negotiators. The family has owned the ranch since 1865.
Many details have yet to be divulged. But Chrisman said all aspects of
the deal, along with legal documents, would be released for public
inspection before the funding was approved by the state Wildlife
Conservation Board and the state Coastal Conservancy — two of the
steps toward final approval.
"Once [the accord is] consummated, I believe all Californians will be
well served by our efforts to present this spectacular working
landscape as envisioned by William Randolph Hearst nearly a century
ago," Chrisman said in a statement.
Stephen T. Hearst, the great-grandson of William Randolph and manager
of the company's extensive real estate holdings, said the corporation
was pleased to have finally reached an accord after five years of
work.
"This landmark agreement will establish permanent public access to 18
miles of pristine coastline and preserve views of the Pacific and
unique Central Coast ranchlands," said Hearst, who has performed most
of the corporation's work on the deal.
The $95-million price tag for the deal includes $80 million in cash
and $15 million in state tax credits. About $23 million would come
from the California Department of Transportation as part of a pool of
money used to preserve scenic highway views. The remainder would come
from voter-approved bond measures designed to preserve open space,
wildlife habitat and watersheds.
Chrisman, in a brief interview, said Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger had
been briefed on the tentative deal, but declined to characterize the
governor's level of enthusiasm. Nor would he divulge any details of
the agreement, suggesting that there would be plenty of time for
"extensive public comment" over the plan's finer points this summer.
"The statement will have to stand on its own," Chrisman said. "We've
still got issues, some things to work through."
The resources secretary said that after any purchase of coastal
property from the ranch, the California Department of Parks and
Recreation would end up managing the land.
The conservation easement, which would cover nearly all of the rest of
the land, would preserve "the ecological and agricultural values of
the property."
Sam Schuchat, executive officer of the Coastal Conservancy, was a key
negotiator for the state. "We may not get everything we want,"
Schuchat said. "But if you get enough, then you have to say, 'This is
a big opportunity.' Land values are only going to go up."
In addition to Hearst and state officials, the deal involves the
American Land Conservancy and the California Rangeland Trust, two
private, nonprofit groups that strive to preserve open space and
working ranches from the high-stakes pressure of urban development.
All the parties will work on legal documents to be presented later
this summer to the boards that oversee the spending of state
conservation bond money.
The state Resources Agency, which was criticized under previous
governors for not revealing details of other big deals until after
they were approved, has committed itself to releasing the legal
documents before state agencies make their decisions.
Susan Jordan, director of the California Coastal Protection Network,
said she was eager to see the details to make sure taxpayers were
getting a good deal, particularly since the bulk of the ranch would
remain in private hands with only the development rights restricted.
"This is not a simple land purchase; it's a complicated conservation
deal," Jordan said. "We want to make sure this land is protected
forever and there's no weakening of restrictions in the future."
She and other conservation activists say the worth of the deal will
depend in part on details such as the precise boundaries of the
oceanfront property that Hearst will continue to own, the degree of
public access, the location of the 27 home sites, the restrictions on
the type of agricultural use of the ranchland, and the ability of the
state to enforce the conservation easement if Hearst Corp. tries to
test it in the future.
On the other side of the years-long debate, San Luis Obispo County
Supervisor Shirley Bianchi said she worried that what she saw as
nit-picking by conservationists would disrupt a deal that she
considered a great opportunity for the public.
Bianchi, a neighboring rancher, was once a leading critic of Hearst's
proposal to build a resort complex around San Simeon Point.
Plans for the resort, which would have included a golf course,
650-room hotel and dude ranch, provoked broad public opposition and
were rebuffed by the California Coastal Commission in 1998.
In 1965 Hearst had architects draw up plans to build a town of 65,000
that would have been called Piedras Blancas — a project never pursued
by the media corporation that owns magazines, TV and radio stations,
and newspapers, including the San Francisco Chronicle.
"When I started opposing development up there, the Hearsts could have
done all sorts of stuff," Bianchi said. "To get it down to a 100-room
inn and 27 houses, it's phenomenal."
As for Hearst, the company says it is forgoing rights to build roughly
400 homes on 271 parcels approved for subdivision by the county after
Hearst unearthed obscure land records that date to the 19th century.
Most of those parcels, however, are far east of Highway 1, in the
hills and Santa Lucia Mountains. The lots on steep terrain are the
least desirable for building — unless they could be moved toward the
ocean through a legal procedure known as lot-line adjustments.
In 2001, the state Legislature passed a law that made large-scale
adjustment of lot lines impossible.
The law was passed after The Times wrote that Hearst Corp. planned to
use the procedure to increase the development potential of the ranch.
stephb...@gmail.com
jsj...@gmail.com
> daughter of MD and WRH. Arthur's claim to fame was his role as
> Dagwood.
Marion Davies also left over $2 million to Arthur Lake's wife, Pat, when Davies died in 1961.
MJ Emigh
> April Cool firsto...@fools.com.invalid wrote:
> > I can't help bu notice how the modern directors (Spielberg, etc) doing a period> piece have all the cars shinny and new and from the current year. It could be> 1940 and not a Model T or Model A to be seen.
That's been going on forever. I doubt that many audience members notice. I can certainly assure you that I saw many cars from the 40s on the street while growing up in the 60s.