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Semi-OT: Dad uses Godwin argument because he wants grandkids
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Lenona
Feb 13, 2024, 11:52:12 AMFeb 13
to
In short, the dad's mother was in Auschwitz, which is presumably one reason he's upset that none of his kids wants to have children.
There are 77 comments so far.
https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/1apjju5/my_dad_said_hitler_won/
First paragraphs:
golamas1999:
"I recently was talking with my dad and said my dog is the closest to a grandchild you will get.
"He responded with Hitler won. Why should he have had kids. If we aren’t having kids then what is the point. Hitler should have just killed all of us."
____________________________________________
Hoo boy.
Anyway, since this is r/childfree, of course everyone is sympathetic to the OP - and often quite eloquent, on this occasion.
From oldest to newest:
havenster:
"Your ancestors lived so you could live YOUR life. You are honoring them by living according to your values. Remember that people with children don’t understand a life without them. Your dad is angry because he doesn’t understand. That doesn’t excuse this EGREGIOUS connection, however. That’s just f***ed."
ategnatos:
"I don't even know that they were thinking about that at the time. Many didn't even know what day it was. When they heard bombers in the vicinity, they weren't allowed to look up (trying to figure out if it was the Russians, Americans, or who). The Nazi guards would shoot them if they did. If anything, they were probably wondering if their siblings or parents or kids were still alive, and if they'd ever see them again."
anna-the-bunny:
"I strongly disagree with the 'they don't understand a life without them' bit. They absolutely do understand - and they're furious that they gave up their life without kids."
Choice_Bid_7491:
"So did your dad only have kids to spite Hitler? I would think Hitler won if people let him influence their life choices long after he’s gone."
lazyhazyeye:
"...Hitler winning means living in constant fear and letting past traumas control your life. Hitler losing means being proud of your heritage and being YOU. You don’t have to have children to “one up” Hitler. You are already one upping Hitler by being here on this Earth and being your authentic self. ..."
ajent99:
" 'At least, Dad, I will not give birth to Hitler II, nor will any of my hypothetical children be the victims of Hitler II or anyone else.' "
Beltalady:
"Hitler II isn't even that far fetched considering the rise of right-wing politics in parts of Europe."
princess_octopussy:
"I'm not Jewish and I understand it's not QUITE the same, but as a Black person I've found that a popular argument for procreation is 'the bigots win if you don't have kids because they don't want more of us'. The reason this argument doesn't hold water with me is cause is a lot of traumatized marginalized people having kids they are not capable of raising because the pain of our ancestors keeps being passed down through the generations like a fucked up family heirloom. Also, its so dehumanizing to act as though the most important thing a person can do is give birth. The best way you could honor your grandparents is by living your life as freely as YOU can, because they didn't have the freedom to do so. Your father's pain is deep and he's entitled to it. He is not entitled to hurt you with it though.
"Also, so many incredible Jewish freedom fighters were child free! Magnus Hirschfeld, who is considered the father of LGBTQ scientific research, is one good example."
McMerseybird:
"You do NOT owe your father grandchildren, for whatever reason. Your body, your choice.
"You are honouring the survivors in your family by living your life on your terms. That is how you truly honour them."
notforcommentinohgoo:
"Ask him how that argument helps homosexuals, who were also sent to the camps.
"Do they also have to mate with people of the opposite sex or Hitler won?
" 'Live a life you will hate or Hitler won' is not the strong argument he thinks it is."
notforcommentinohgoo:
"My most serious ex was Jewish. Whole family lived in Israel. Her mother was very, very keen that we should have kids. Offered to raise them for us even.
"But even she never descended to that level."
torienne:
"My husband's aunt and cousin were murdered in the Holocaust. His mother had no living cousins, aunts, uncles or grandparents by the time she was 15. All were murdered. Because of the poverty that her refugee status engendered, my husband grew up in the projects of NYC.
"I read your father's comments to my husband, as he has a major dog in that fight. He says: 'Tell your father to talk to his rabbi, because what he's saying is not good Judaism.' Forced breeding was very much Hitler's (and every despot's) thing. It is not something a Jew should say."
rgnysp0333:
"Jewish gullt is a beast. We have the same arguments about marrying non Jews and going atheist too. If you're going to just dilute/give up your faith, it's the same as if Hitler succeeded.
"Then again that's what happens when our identity is predicated on everyone tried to kill us in the past and we're still here."
There are 77 comments so far.
https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/1apjju5/my_dad_said_hitler_won/
First paragraphs:
golamas1999:
"I recently was talking with my dad and said my dog is the closest to a grandchild you will get.
"He responded with Hitler won. Why should he have had kids. If we aren’t having kids then what is the point. Hitler should have just killed all of us."
____________________________________________
Hoo boy.
Anyway, since this is r/childfree, of course everyone is sympathetic to the OP - and often quite eloquent, on this occasion.
From oldest to newest:
havenster:
"Your ancestors lived so you could live YOUR life. You are honoring them by living according to your values. Remember that people with children don’t understand a life without them. Your dad is angry because he doesn’t understand. That doesn’t excuse this EGREGIOUS connection, however. That’s just f***ed."
ategnatos:
"I don't even know that they were thinking about that at the time. Many didn't even know what day it was. When they heard bombers in the vicinity, they weren't allowed to look up (trying to figure out if it was the Russians, Americans, or who). The Nazi guards would shoot them if they did. If anything, they were probably wondering if their siblings or parents or kids were still alive, and if they'd ever see them again."
anna-the-bunny:
"I strongly disagree with the 'they don't understand a life without them' bit. They absolutely do understand - and they're furious that they gave up their life without kids."
Choice_Bid_7491:
"So did your dad only have kids to spite Hitler? I would think Hitler won if people let him influence their life choices long after he’s gone."
lazyhazyeye:
"...Hitler winning means living in constant fear and letting past traumas control your life. Hitler losing means being proud of your heritage and being YOU. You don’t have to have children to “one up” Hitler. You are already one upping Hitler by being here on this Earth and being your authentic self. ..."
ajent99:
" 'At least, Dad, I will not give birth to Hitler II, nor will any of my hypothetical children be the victims of Hitler II or anyone else.' "
Beltalady:
"Hitler II isn't even that far fetched considering the rise of right-wing politics in parts of Europe."
princess_octopussy:
"I'm not Jewish and I understand it's not QUITE the same, but as a Black person I've found that a popular argument for procreation is 'the bigots win if you don't have kids because they don't want more of us'. The reason this argument doesn't hold water with me is cause is a lot of traumatized marginalized people having kids they are not capable of raising because the pain of our ancestors keeps being passed down through the generations like a fucked up family heirloom. Also, its so dehumanizing to act as though the most important thing a person can do is give birth. The best way you could honor your grandparents is by living your life as freely as YOU can, because they didn't have the freedom to do so. Your father's pain is deep and he's entitled to it. He is not entitled to hurt you with it though.
"Also, so many incredible Jewish freedom fighters were child free! Magnus Hirschfeld, who is considered the father of LGBTQ scientific research, is one good example."
McMerseybird:
"You do NOT owe your father grandchildren, for whatever reason. Your body, your choice.
"You are honouring the survivors in your family by living your life on your terms. That is how you truly honour them."
notforcommentinohgoo:
"Ask him how that argument helps homosexuals, who were also sent to the camps.
"Do they also have to mate with people of the opposite sex or Hitler won?
" 'Live a life you will hate or Hitler won' is not the strong argument he thinks it is."
notforcommentinohgoo:
"My most serious ex was Jewish. Whole family lived in Israel. Her mother was very, very keen that we should have kids. Offered to raise them for us even.
"But even she never descended to that level."
torienne:
"My husband's aunt and cousin were murdered in the Holocaust. His mother had no living cousins, aunts, uncles or grandparents by the time she was 15. All were murdered. Because of the poverty that her refugee status engendered, my husband grew up in the projects of NYC.
"I read your father's comments to my husband, as he has a major dog in that fight. He says: 'Tell your father to talk to his rabbi, because what he's saying is not good Judaism.' Forced breeding was very much Hitler's (and every despot's) thing. It is not something a Jew should say."
rgnysp0333:
"Jewish gullt is a beast. We have the same arguments about marrying non Jews and going atheist too. If you're going to just dilute/give up your faith, it's the same as if Hitler succeeded.
"Then again that's what happens when our identity is predicated on everyone tried to kill us in the past and we're still here."
Lenona
Feb 13, 2024, 12:01:29 PMFeb 13
to
And here's one more comment that I'm posting separately because of its length:
McMerseybird:
"A similar thing is sometimes seen in the autistic community. I am very anti-eugenics, but some people in that community are taking it too far. I once saw a post somewhere from someone who said that they didn't really want to be a parent, but they decided to pass on their autistic genes as a fuck you to eugenics. They believed that if more autistic people would be born, it would be harder for non-autistic eugenics supporters to get rid of us.
"My girlfriend and I are autistic. We don't experience the desire to be a parent. We can't stand children. Parenthood would be our biggest nightmare. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that we would probably pass on our autism if we had children. Sadly, some people in the autistic community accused us of eugenics. They said that we owe the autistic community children. That we should have children, to make it harder for non-autistic people to get rid of our kind. One time, someone in a Facebook group for autistic people compared my girlfriend and me to Hitler, for practicing eugenics because we aren't having kids.
"Another common view in the autistic community that is very toxic is how they are anti-euthanasia. They take their anti-eugenics views too far and see eugenics when it's not there.
"Where I live, euthanasia is legal, but the rules are very strict. You have to request euthanasia yourself. Others can't do that for you. You need to have a diagnosed disorder or illness. And you can only get euthanasia if your suffering is unbearable and if there is no reasonable other solution. And even if you meet the legal requirements, most doctors won't do it. The law doesn't make a difference between mental health issues or physical health issues, but getting euthanasia for mental health issues is almost impossible. Most euthanasia requests are denied."
"Sadly, American autism activists act as if autistic people in the Netherlands and Belgium are euthanised against their will by the state, requested by the parents of autistic people. This is total bullshit. First of all, the very few autistic people who manage to get the euthanasia they want, really really really want to die and requested this themselves. So they aren't murdered against their will. Most of the times, the parents are against it, so the idea that parents want this is bullshit. This isn't the state or parents mass murdering autistic people, even though American activists love to paint it as such. This is about many individuals wanting to die and a few individuals being lucky enough to get help from a doctor, so they can die in a peaceful way instead of suffer for years or hope that a painful suicide attempt is successful.
"And some extremists even became anti-abortion, because aborting a disabled fetus would be eugenics.
"Yes, of course people who want to be parents need to accept that they might get a disabled child. But still, even if someone who wants kids would abort a disabled fetus, I would NEVER want to interfere with their right to choose. Their body, their choice.
"Anti-eugenics views are a good thing. But it sucks when that is taken too far, to the point where people are anti-childfreedom, anti-euthanasia and anti-abortion, even if not wanting kids or wanting to die has nothing to do with eugenics. It's not the state preventing autistic people from being born or the state murdering autistic people. This is about individual people who just don't want to be parents or people who really want to die.
"As anti-eugenics as I am, my pro-choice, pro-bodily autonomy views always come first. Even if that means that many other autistic people will hate me."
anna-the-bunny:
"As an autistic person, I genuinely find this sort of thing disturbing. I suffered a lot during my childhood because of my autism, and that's not something I'd wish on anyone else. To knowingly force a child to go through the same thing I did is unthinkable, especially if my only reason for doing so was 'so there'll be more autistic people in the world.' "
"If your only goal is the proliferation of autism, congratulations - you're a eugenicist. You just view different genes as desirable."
McMerseybird:
"A similar thing is sometimes seen in the autistic community. I am very anti-eugenics, but some people in that community are taking it too far. I once saw a post somewhere from someone who said that they didn't really want to be a parent, but they decided to pass on their autistic genes as a fuck you to eugenics. They believed that if more autistic people would be born, it would be harder for non-autistic eugenics supporters to get rid of us.
"My girlfriend and I are autistic. We don't experience the desire to be a parent. We can't stand children. Parenthood would be our biggest nightmare. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that we would probably pass on our autism if we had children. Sadly, some people in the autistic community accused us of eugenics. They said that we owe the autistic community children. That we should have children, to make it harder for non-autistic people to get rid of our kind. One time, someone in a Facebook group for autistic people compared my girlfriend and me to Hitler, for practicing eugenics because we aren't having kids.
"Another common view in the autistic community that is very toxic is how they are anti-euthanasia. They take their anti-eugenics views too far and see eugenics when it's not there.
"Where I live, euthanasia is legal, but the rules are very strict. You have to request euthanasia yourself. Others can't do that for you. You need to have a diagnosed disorder or illness. And you can only get euthanasia if your suffering is unbearable and if there is no reasonable other solution. And even if you meet the legal requirements, most doctors won't do it. The law doesn't make a difference between mental health issues or physical health issues, but getting euthanasia for mental health issues is almost impossible. Most euthanasia requests are denied."
"Sadly, American autism activists act as if autistic people in the Netherlands and Belgium are euthanised against their will by the state, requested by the parents of autistic people. This is total bullshit. First of all, the very few autistic people who manage to get the euthanasia they want, really really really want to die and requested this themselves. So they aren't murdered against their will. Most of the times, the parents are against it, so the idea that parents want this is bullshit. This isn't the state or parents mass murdering autistic people, even though American activists love to paint it as such. This is about many individuals wanting to die and a few individuals being lucky enough to get help from a doctor, so they can die in a peaceful way instead of suffer for years or hope that a painful suicide attempt is successful.
"And some extremists even became anti-abortion, because aborting a disabled fetus would be eugenics.
"Yes, of course people who want to be parents need to accept that they might get a disabled child. But still, even if someone who wants kids would abort a disabled fetus, I would NEVER want to interfere with their right to choose. Their body, their choice.
"Anti-eugenics views are a good thing. But it sucks when that is taken too far, to the point where people are anti-childfreedom, anti-euthanasia and anti-abortion, even if not wanting kids or wanting to die has nothing to do with eugenics. It's not the state preventing autistic people from being born or the state murdering autistic people. This is about individual people who just don't want to be parents or people who really want to die.
"As anti-eugenics as I am, my pro-choice, pro-bodily autonomy views always come first. Even if that means that many other autistic people will hate me."
anna-the-bunny:
"As an autistic person, I genuinely find this sort of thing disturbing. I suffered a lot during my childhood because of my autism, and that's not something I'd wish on anyone else. To knowingly force a child to go through the same thing I did is unthinkable, especially if my only reason for doing so was 'so there'll be more autistic people in the world.' "
"If your only goal is the proliferation of autism, congratulations - you're a eugenicist. You just view different genes as desirable."
Travoltron
Feb 13, 2024, 12:10:11 PMFeb 13
to
On 2/13/2024 8:52 AM, Lenona wrote:
> In short, the dad's mother was in Auschwitz, which is presumably one
> reason he's upset that none of his kids wants to have children.
Yes, my dad is the same way. Same hurtful Godwin argument. He's put
> In short, the dad's mother was in Auschwitz, which is presumably one
> reason he's upset that none of his kids wants to have children.
immense pressure on my youngest brother to marry and have children, even
though my brother is autistic and would be a horrible idea.
I'm not going to let Hitler influence my life in any way.
Lenona
Feb 13, 2024, 12:18:44 PMFeb 13
to
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 12:10:11 PM UTC-5, Travoltron wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 8:52 AM, Lenona wrote:
> > In short, the dad's mother was in Auschwitz, which is presumably one
> > reason he's upset that none of his kids wants to have children.
> Yes, my dad is the same way. Same hurtful Godwin argument. He's put
> immense pressure on my youngest brother to marry and have children, even
> though my brother is autistic and would be a horrible idea.
I'm very sorry to hear it.
> On 2/13/2024 8:52 AM, Lenona wrote:
> > In short, the dad's mother was in Auschwitz, which is presumably one
> > reason he's upset that none of his kids wants to have children.
> Yes, my dad is the same way. Same hurtful Godwin argument. He's put
> immense pressure on my youngest brother to marry and have children, even
> though my brother is autistic and would be a horrible idea.
In the meantime, here's something I posted in an old thread:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.obituaries/c/pvmWIA9xVa4/m/6JDb4fFQAQAJ
On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:51:53 AM UTC-4, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Anti-abortionists try to paint abortion rights as racist,
> because black embryos are likelier to be aborted...of course
> that means more black women WANT and would be DENIED abortions,
> and those making the denials are the racists.
THANK you.
In 2018, at Amy Alkon's now-defunct blog, I posted a link to a Margery Eagan column that mentioned the long anti-abortion standing of white supremacists. (Of course, that doesn't mean the converse is true - and yes, there are plenty of nonwhite anti-abortionists.) Title:
"Race, not abortion, was the founding issue of the religious right."
You can read the column here:
https://www.proquest.com/bostonglobe/docview/1994037324/C4B77203A7344F0APQ/1?accountid=38363
At least one person (at Alkon's blog) thought it was ludicrous (for Eagan) to suggest that such people would be anti-abortion - he said something like: "that would be advocating for more black babies!"
Well, first of all, since when are white supremacists in favor of women's rights in general, duh?
And opposing abortion is a great way for politicians to keep poor people poor and easier to control. So white supremacists had to choose between:
1. allowing black families to become more affluent due to family planning
2. forcing white families, even poor ones, to have more babies.
I think it's clear why #1 would not be considered acceptable - and why #2 would be considered no big deal.
Meteorite Debris
Feb 13, 2024, 11:27:31 PMFeb 13
to
How very sad to think we should control what our children will do. Their lives are NOT our lives to live but them alone. I am childfree myself. We do NOT own our children. What would be the point? Your children have 1/2 your genes. Your grandchildren have a 1/4 of your genes you share 3 3 other ancestors. Gt grandchildren 1/8. Gt gt grandchildren 1/16 and so on. 10 generations those descendant are not meaningfully recognizable as you, sharing only 1/1,000th of your genes. 2^10 = 1024. You do not meaningfully survive through your genes. They are diluted as a drop of water in the ocean.
His cause seems to be "how to become racially conscious, and indeed a racist, while pretending not no be".
radioacti...@gmail.com
Feb 14, 2024, 12:39:53 PMFeb 14
to
This is an positively fascinating thread, and in more than one cultural or political realm; thanks for getting the ball rolling, Lenona.
BRYAN STYBLE/Florida
BRYAN STYBLE/Florida
Lenona
Feb 14, 2024, 4:24:10 PMFeb 14
to
> This is an positively fascinating thread, and in more than one cultural or political realm; thanks for getting the ball rolling, Lenona.
>
> BRYAN STYBLE/Florida
In the meantime, this was written this week:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-contraception-abortion-2024-election-b2493130.html
"Republicans are taking aim on contraception — and they’d rather you didn’t know"
(I don't know why it says "on" rather than "at." Otherwise, it's very much worth reading.)
While the article didn't mention the following, I also find it interesting that of all the men who did, in fact, rush out to get vasectomies in the last year and a half, NONE of them seem to be...self-proclaimed men's rights activists (MRAs).
To my knowledge, the more famous MRAs haven't even said anything about the Dobbs decision being bad for MEN who don't want children - or who don't want any MORE children. (The most they've said is "good, now women know how MEN feel when they're pushed into unwanted fatherhood." I even searched under Dobbs at r/MensRights - no luck.)
In the meantime, there are over 400 comments here (about the Independent article):
https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/1aptfev/gop_wants_to_ban_contraception_and_by_result/?sort=confidence
Top-rated comment:
FourHand458:
"Spread the word on the childfree doctors list to other corners of the internet who might not be aware that doctors willing to perform sterilizations are out there.
"For some reason it won’t let me post the link but it’s on the notes of this sub."
Meteorite Debris
Feb 17, 2024, 10:26:13 PMFeb 17
to
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