Atanas Strezovski's Story
++
On Victor Bivell’s great website, the following recent story of a man’s visit to the village he was born in in Greece is featured. The following is the text only of the story. All of the accompanying pictures and documents are on the website at http://www.pollitecon.com/html/life/my_first_visit.html
My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean Macedonia
By Atanas Strezovski
I am Atanas Strezovski, an Australian citizen and passport holder. In July 2003, while on holiday in Europe, I decided to visit my birthplace to see my relatives and friends and to be present at the wedding of the daughter of aunty, Georgiou Elefterija.
While in Bitola, the Republic of Macedonia, I had received an invitation, written using the Greek alphabet to make Macedonian words. The letter said that I would be welcome “dear nephew” to attend the wedding of Hrisula and Atanasios and that they would wait “with warm heart” for me to arrive.
On my first attempt to return to Greece for a visit in August 1994 I had been denied entry - the border official told me this was because my passport had my birthplace as “Neret” and the country as “MKD”. Neret is the original Macedonian name for my village, and MKD is the international abbreviation for Macedonia. However, after the Balkan Wars the region became part of Greece and the village was renamed into the Greek “Polipotamos”. The border official said that there was “no way” I could enter Greece while the terminology “Neret” and “MKD” were in my passport.
On this occasion, because I had the invitation, I had a small hope that the Greek authorities would permit me to enter Greece when I arrived at the border checkpoint at Medzitlija. To encourage me, my mother, Paraskeva, who was also born in Neret but now lives in Bitola, had said to me that many people had been let into Greece because they had such an invitation. But I later realized that the invitation was irrelevant to the Greek authorities.
I made a deal with a Macedonian taxi driver that he would take me to the village Neret for 25 euros.
We set out at 8.30 am. The whole time I was afraid that they would not let me into Greece, as I know that many Macedonians born in Aegean Macedonia (now called northern Greece) have been wiped out from the records forever by the Greek authorities.
Despite the history and my own experience in 1994, I kept my small hope that they would let me enter. On the way, the owner of the taxi said that many hundreds of Macedonians with Australian and Canadian passports had been denied entry at the border simply because their birthplace was written under the original Macedonian name, for example “Buf, Makedonia”. According to the taxi driver, the Greek Government does not want to see Macedonian names and that is why they turn people back. The Government wants to see these toponyms written only under the new Greek names with which they had Christened them.
He said that when the Macedonians were denied entry they became very unhappy and that as a taxi driver he was also unhappy as the passengers paid for their journey but had not reached their destinations. What the Greeks are doing is very unfair, he said, but they are very powerful internationally and what can the Macedonians do? He then added that he has two Greek border officers who are good friends of his and that if one of them is on duty there is a small possibility that I could pass through. Otherwise there would be no chance at all, he said.
About 9 am we reached the check point, Medzitlija. He told me to wait in the taxi and he would test the ground for me. A few minutes later he returned and said it was successful.
When I saw the stamp in my passport, I was surprised that I would be allowed to pass the border, as I could clearly remember not being allowed to pass through in 1994. I could not believe the situation. I was overjoyed.
As soon as we started the car, I said to the taxi driver “The ice is broken, the times are softer, and even the Greeks can see that the Macedonians are people too. This is probably because of criticism and pressure from human rights organizations and the European politicians and community.” The young taxi driver said “Do not be so happy until the job is done and we reach your village.” The driver said that although he had been to many villages, this was the first time he was going to Neret. We would need to ask directions from somebody and, as there were a lot of Greek agents in plain clothes, to be on the safe side we would need to ask in the Greek language and to ask for the village using its Greek name. “Pujse to Polipotamos” he said to me in Greek to show me how, as I was on the footpath side of the car.
And that is what happened. When we met a women, I said the above words and she answered something in Greek which I did not understand. But the taxi driver told me even if I do not understand what she is saying, she was showing with her hand that we need to turn right at the T junction.
We continued on for another 10 minutes. But to ensure we were going in the right direction, we stopped again and asked a man who was plastering a house - using the same Greek words above. His short answer - in perfect Macedonian - was that we were on the road to the village Neret (“pa Vie patuvate za selo Neret”). With a similar short reply - also in Macedonian - I said to him with a smile “Yes, we are going there.” ("Da, tamu odime.”) He gave us precise directions. “Turn left at the third bridge. It is the last village. You cannot miss it.”
In 15 minutes we arrived at the village Neret. At once I was greeted by my relatives, my aunty Elefterija and my cousins Dimitrios and Vasili Tolis.
The wedding was underway when we arrived. The band played Macedonian and Greek music. But there was only music - no singing. Even well known Macedonian national songs, such as “Mariche Le Lichno Devojche” (Maria You Pretty Girl) were only played by the band but no one sang to the music.
Until 4 pm the ceremonies were only in the centre of the village. Around 3 pm I went to the church to speak with the priest. There was no sign of the name of the church - not in Macedonian nor in Greek. I asked the priest but he refused to answer. He seemed frightened. I asked one of the guests near me “What is the name of this church?” The lady replied “Sv Bogorodica” (St Mary). I asked why there is no name on the church? Why it is blank? She said “We know the name”. When I asked the priest if the church is called Sv Bogorodica he said “Yes” in Macedonian, but made no further comment. But the service in the church was entirely in the Greek language.
Outside the church and in the village, when there were no Greeks present, the people generally spoke Macedonian, so my impression was that the Macedonian language at least is no longer forbidden. However, it is a shame that there is no Macedonian school and that the Macedonian language is not used or taught at school.
That evening in the nearby town of Lerin, in the hall where the wedding celebrations continued, the band played Macedonian music but the words were sung in the Greek language.
After the wedding we returned to Neret and I stayed with my cousin Dimitrios.
The next day I awoke about 10 am. I was alone in the house. I looked at the photograph albums, which my cousin had already pointed out to me.
Most of the photographs were of my relatives, and I saw photographs of my dead grandfather, Hristos Strezos. I also saw photos of his son, my uncle, Kosta Strezov, who now lives in the town of Burgas in Bulgaria. It was Kosta who had originally told me about this wedding and suggested I try to enter Greece to attend. Kosta had previously not been allowed to enter Greece and so on this occasion had not tried to enter to attend the wedding.
I also saw a photograph of my grandfather’s other son, my father, Giorgi Strezovski. I was in the photograph, a child of about four sitting on his knee. The photo was taken in Bitola in about 1948. I was born in 1944 and my family had left Neret and gone to Bitola while I was a baby. My father was a patriot. He had told my mother that if we stayed in the village we would become Greeks but if we left we would have a chance to remain Macedonians. Many other Macedonians in Greece had felt the same.
I believe that as a Macedonian intellectual my father was persecuted by Serbian nationalists. My father was a professional musician, a clarinet player and composer, but in the photograph he was wearing a Yugoslav army uniform. Because of the split between Tito and Stalin, he was imprisoned for about three years in Serbia during the time of the “Informbiro”. His health deteriorated through maltreatment, and the prison doctor diagnosed that he would soon die. They let him free so that he would not die in the prison hospital. From Serbia he moved to Bitola and then Skopje but no doctor could help him and he passed away.
I also saw my mother, Paraskeva Strezovska, with her sons Lenin and myself, Atanas, photographed in Ohrid, although I do not know in what year. I was about 10 years old.
I also saw a photograph of myself as a Serbian soldier in the Yugoslav National Army. The photo was dated 25.10.1964.
I also saw a photograph of my cousin, Toli Dimitrios, dressed as a Greek ‘Evzon” guard.
At my request, my cousin, Vasili Tolis, took me to the monastery Sv Naum, where there are the graves of my relatives, including that of my grandfather Hristos Strezos, who died in 1975. The family believes this was from beatings by Greek agents whom the Macedonians call “andarti”. We believe the reason is that he received a letter from Australia which was addressed to Risto Strezovski and not Hristos Strezos, the Greek version of his name.
I also saw the graves of my cousin Hristos Tolis and his wife Fane Filippoi, for whom I lit candles.
Again, in this monastery also, I could see no writing to indicate its name.
In the village cafe, I met with a group of Macedonians who spoke in Macedonian. I joined the group and they accepted me. I told them I was born in the village but had left as a baby and this was the first time I had come back in 59 years.
They asked to see my passport and when they saw written the word “Neret” they were surprised and said how good it was that I could successfully enter Greece. I told them the story of the taxi driver.
They mentioned that even a letter which has Macedonian script or names and surnames is not delivered. They believed such letters are returned to sender but I believe they could be kept by the Greek authorities or even destroyed.
After three days the time came for me to leave for Bitola. Around 5 pm I said my goodbyes to my relatives, and my cousin Vasili took me to the border at Medzitlija.
On the way my cousin said he would bring me to Lerin to see my grandfather’s old shop where he practised as a tailor. My father also worked there as a boy before he became a musician. The shop has been closed since the late 1920s or early 1930s when my grandfather travelled to Australia to look for work. The shop looks as it was then and I took several photographs.
We started again for Bitola and my cousin said to me “Oh cousin, Tanase, if you had stayed here instead of emigrating you would have a house in Neret, a farm in Neret, and a shop in Lerin. Because your family was not here your grandfather Hristos gave everything to us and made us promise we would not sell the shop to anyone.” I did not have a comment to this, except to say “Good luck to you for your inheritance and may you have a happy life. If I have another chance in my life time I will come back again. All I want is for us to be healthy and happy.”
At the border, I wanted to make my farewells and to continue alone, in case there was some problem at the check point which I did not want my cousin to suffer. But my cousin said he would take me to the Macedonian border.
At that moment I had a feeling that something unexpected could happen.
But my cousin insisted with the words “Don’t worry. I was an evzon guard here and everyone knows me.”
When I gave my passport to the Greek official, he opened it and carefully read every part. He looked aghast and said “Selo Neret”.
As he said the Macedonian word “Selo”, which is nowhere in the passport, I immediately realized that he may be of Macedonian background. The possibility that he could be reminded me of a “Janichar”, a Turkish word from the Ottoman period that meant a Macedonian child who had been confiscated from their parents and raised as a soldier to kill Macedonians.
I got a feeling that I would have a problem. I was mostly worried about my cousin Vasili as I would be returning to Australia but he would remain there.
The official asked me in Greek “What is Neret?” and what is “MKD?”. I shrugged my shoulders and as I do not speak Greek I answered to my cousin in Macedonian so that he could translate “I do not know”, even if I did know.
He rolled the passport nervously in his hands. He made a phone call and looked up some books, ostensibly to find out what “Neret” and “MKD” mean, although I believe he already knew what they meant. I waited for about an hour at the counter. Meanwhile a number of people with Greek passports passed through trouble-free at the same window. As I waited on my feet I began to feel I was being punished. The officer held his head with both hands and looked as if he could not believe what he was reading. I wondered how a person including myself could have passed the check point and not have been checked properly. Clearly there had been some sort of “error” by the officer who had allowed me to enter Greece. I felt that the officer could get into serious trouble for allowing me in, and I felt sorry for him as what he had done was right from a humanitarian point of view. Meanwhile the officer I stood before still could not believe what he saw and continued to fidget with the passport. Finally he asked me when and how I entered Greece and who had let me in? My answer through my cousin who translated was that I did not know which officer it was but that I passed through the same road on which I now wished to leave. I told him the date and the time and that now two days later I am waiting patiently to leave as relatives of mine were on the Macedonian side of the border with a car.
The officer seemed exhausted from asking me the same questions over and over and did not know what else to ask me. Finally he gave back the passport. I thanked him and quickly left the building.
As I opened the car door and was about to sit, I saw an officer, a large man with a uniform, coming towards me. Unlike the other officer, he had a pistol on his hip. He spoke in rapid Greek, of which I could only understand the word “passport”. Immediately I understood the problem and gave him the passport. He entered the checkpoint office from which I had just left.
I waited on the footpath for about seven minutes. The large officer then returned and gave me the passport. I thanked him in English.
We entered the car and left immediately for the Macedonian border.
I wondered why the large officer had taken my passport when the first officer has already cleared me to leave. As we were driving I opened the passport to see if there had been any changes. I saw that the stamp for my entry into Greece had been badly smudged with blue ink so that the Greek words were no longer identifiable. There was also some new handwriting - the word “AKYION”, presumably a Greek word.
I also noticed that there was no stamp for my exit.
In those moments I asked myself what all this meant? Whether that by destroying my entry stamp it made it look as if I had entered Greece illegally, perhaps by jumping the fence or crossing some farmland or bush etc, rather than having passed through the checkpoint? Was that the reason for defacing the passport - to destroy the evidence that I entered Greece legally? However I did not believe that they could fully destroy the evidence of my legal entry as surely the information would have been entered in their computer system?
I decided I would take action to make these events known to various Macedonian human rights organizations in Bitola and Sydney and to the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs in Canberra.
A year later I am still asking myself - what is the real problem? Is it that I entered Greece under my original Macedonian name and surname; is it that I entered Greece under the original Macedonian name of my village - Neret, instead of the Greek Polipotamos as they have renamed it; or is it that I entered Greece with the international abbreviation for Macedonia - MKD. I think it is that any or all three of the above would signify official recognition for the Macedonian people and country.
Sydney, June 30, 2004
The author can be contacted at PO Box 179, Ramsgate NSW 2217 Australia, or atan...@hotmail.com
Dorian West
they should be hunted down and culled lest they murder more Greeks. You
should also stop using Greek names like Macedonia simply because the Greek
people don't want you to forgetting about the other facts like you use Greek
names to claim Greek land. What are you block-heads possibly going to do
with Macedonia once you steal it from Greece??? Raise its standard of
living?? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Brutes of the worst calibre.
Furthermore you should not even use the Greek religion and alphabet - they
were gifts that you do not deserve, you slant eyed savages from cannibal
Asia. You should not even use Greek Christian, sorry pronames for you are
atheist, communist scum in reality. Do Greeks use your ugly names for their
children - Zoran, Zeljko, Bogan to name a few - no way no.
"++" <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40f228f5$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> or atan...@hotmail.com <mailto:atan...@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
>
Yannis the Macedonian
......................................................
My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean
Macedonia
By Atanas Strezovski
I am Atanas Strezovski, an Australian citizen and passport holder. In July
2003, while on holiday in Europe, I decided to visit my birthplace to see
my relatives and friends and to be present at the wedding of the daughter
official recognition for the Macedonian people and country.
Sydney, June 30, 2004
The post shows how dangerous childishing can be when by an old human.
As children SlavoSkopians adopted Tito-SlavoSkopian propaganda that, using
mainly lies and half-truths, told them that they are Macedonians.
As children they still exercising the same propaganda to steal Macedonian
name, history, fame and glory for they won't be proud of their Bulgarian
past.
As children they do not want to see the truth after ten years living in an
open society. They won't accept that they were and still being brutally
violated by Tito-SlavoSkopian propaganda.
As children maybe they need a strong slap to come into their senses.
Dear Atanas, Greece and Greeks have no problem with your language, your
ethnic "minority" here, your songs and ceremonies, your country, .... BUT:
We do have serious problems with your attempt to pass as Macedonians
because Macedonians were always Greeks, because Macedonians are here to
defend their fame, glory, history and Greekness. You are not Macedonians
because aalllllllllllll your proud heroes ( Delcev, Gruev, Misirkov,
Mihailov, Miladinov, Sarafov....) told you that you were Bulgarians but
Tito-SlavoSkopian propaganda hided their words from you .
You see my email address is this message. If you "dare", tell me what is
Macedonian on you ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Nikolay
Po princip na Bulgaro-Grckata granica ne vratat bugari t.e.
bratovcheda ot Burgas trebe da nema problemi. Vero 1994 beshe mnogo
zategnato polujenieto vo Grcko. A inache mi pravi nepriatno
vpechetlenie pa zashto ne sa s normalni imeta rodninite vo Grcia?
Moiata Lelia (antie) ima Bulgarsko ime Radka (a nie i vikame Ati) i
isto e s grcko drjanstvo. Ne moj da se davat taka imenata. Zabeliaza
li, nema ovde - a samo kao e vo Bulgaria - tam (tamu). Iaz neznam pa
zashto toz chovek isto mu e imeto na -ski - ne zvuchi dobre u nas. Ne
mi kazvai deka na nas ova e Ruska nadstavka - Ja go znam ovo, obake
ono e pridobito po-otdavna.
Ako imashe bugarski pasos nemashe da ima problemi. A inache te grcite
sa si nenormalni, a na tez malki puktove (KPP) si izbovat kompleksite.
++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<40f228f5$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> On Victor Bivell?s great website, the following recent story of a man?s
> visit to the village he was born in in Greece is featured. The
> following is the text only of the story. All of the accompanying
> pictures and documents are on the website at
> http://www.pollitecon.com/html/life/my_first_visit.html
>
> My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean
> Macedonia
>
> By Atanas Strezovski
>
> I am Atanas Strezovski, an Australian citizen and passport holder. In
> July 2003, while on holiday in Europe, I decided to visit my birthplace
> to see my relatives and friends and to be present at the wedding of the
> daughter of aunty, Georgiou Elefterija.
>
> While in Bitola, the Republic of Macedonia, I had received an
> invitation, written using the Greek alphabet to make Macedonian words.
> The letter said that I would be welcome ?dear nephew? to attend the
> wedding of Hrisula and Atanasios and that they would wait ?with warm
> heart? for me to arrive.
>
> On my first attempt to return to Greece for a visit in August 1994 I had
> been denied entry - the border official told me this was because my
> passport had my birthplace as ?Neret? and the country as ?MKD?. Neret is
> the original Macedonian name for my village, and MKD is the
> international abbreviation for Macedonia. However, after the Balkan Wars
> the region became part of Greece and the village was renamed into the
> Greek ?Polipotamos?. The border official said that there was ?no way? I
> could enter Greece while the terminology ?Neret? and ?MKD? were in my
> passport.
>
> On this occasion, because I had the invitation, I had a small hope that
> the Greek authorities would permit me to enter Greece when I arrived at
> the border checkpoint at Medzitlija. To encourage me, my mother,
> Paraskeva, who was also born in Neret but now lives in Bitola, had said
> to me that many people had been let into Greece because they had such an
> invitation. But I later realized that the invitation was irrelevant to
> the Greek authorities.
>
> I made a deal with a Macedonian taxi driver that he would take me to the
> village Neret for 25 euros.
>
> We set out at 8.30 am. The whole time I was afraid that they would not
> let me into Greece, as I know that many Macedonians born in Aegean
> Macedonia (now called northern Greece) have been wiped out from the
> records forever by the Greek authorities.
>
> Despite the history and my own experience in 1994, I kept my small hope
> that they would let me enter. On the way, the owner of the taxi said
> that many hundreds of Macedonians with Australian and Canadian passports
> had been denied entry at the border simply because their birthplace was
> written under the original Macedonian name, for example ?Buf,
> Makedonia?. According to the taxi driver, the Greek Government does not
> want to see Macedonian names and that is why they turn people back. The
> Government wants to see these toponyms written only under the new Greek
> names with which they had Christened them.
>
> He said that when the Macedonians were denied entry they became very
> unhappy and that as a taxi driver he was also unhappy as the passengers
> paid for their journey but had not reached their destinations. What the
> Greeks are doing is very unfair, he said, but they are very powerful
> internationally and what can the Macedonians do? He then added that he
> has two Greek border officers who are good friends of his and that if
> one of them is on duty there is a small possibility that I could pass
> through. Otherwise there would be no chance at all, he said.
>
> About 9 am we reached the check point, Medzitlija. He told me to wait in
> the taxi and he would test the ground for me. A few minutes later he
> returned and said it was successful.
>
> When I saw the stamp in my passport, I was surprised that I would be
> allowed to pass the border, as I could clearly remember not being
> allowed to pass through in 1994. I could not believe the situation. I
> was overjoyed.
>
> As soon as we started the car, I said to the taxi driver ?The ice is
> broken, the times are softer, and even the Greeks can see that the
> Macedonians are people too. This is probably because of criticism and
> pressure from human rights organizations and the European politicians
> and community.? The young taxi driver said ?Do not be so happy until the
> job is done and we reach your village.? The driver said that although he
> had been to many villages, this was the first time he was going to
> Neret. We would need to ask directions from somebody and, as there were
> a lot of Greek agents in plain clothes, to be on the safe side we would
> need to ask in the Greek language and to ask for the village using its
> Greek name. ?Pujse to Polipotamos? he said to me in Greek to show me
> how, as I was on the footpath side of the car.
>
> And that is what happened. When we met a women, I said the above words
> and she answered something in Greek which I did not understand. But the
> taxi driver told me even if I do not understand what she is saying, she
> was showing with her hand that we need to turn right at the T junction.
>
> We continued on for another 10 minutes. But to ensure we were going in
> the right direction, we stopped again and asked a man who was plastering
> a house - using the same Greek words above. His short answer - in
> perfect Macedonian - was that we were on the road to the village Neret
> (?pa Vie patuvate za selo Neret?). With a similar short reply - also in
> Macedonian - I said to him with a smile ?Yes, we are going there.? ("Da,
> tamu odime.?) He gave us precise directions. ?Turn left at the third
> bridge. It is the last village. You cannot miss it.?
>
> In 15 minutes we arrived at the village Neret. At once I was greeted by
> my relatives, my aunty Elefterija and my cousins Dimitrios and Vasili Tolis.
>
> The wedding was underway when we arrived. The band played Macedonian and
> Greek music. But there was only music - no singing. Even well known
> Macedonian national songs, such as ?Mariche Le Lichno Devojche? (Maria
> You Pretty Girl) were only played by the band but no one sang to the music.
>
> Until 4 pm the ceremonies were only in the centre of the village. Around
> 3 pm I went to the church to speak with the priest. There was no sign of
> the name of the church - not in Macedonian nor in Greek. I asked the
> priest but he refused to answer. He seemed frightened. I asked one of
> the guests near me ?What is the name of this church?? The lady replied
> ?Sv Bogorodica? (St Mary). I asked why there is no name on the church?
> Why it is blank? She said ?We know the name?. When I asked the priest if
> the church is called Sv Bogorodica he said ?Yes? in Macedonian, but made
> no further comment. But the service in the church was entirely in the
> Greek language.
>
> Outside the church and in the village, when there were no Greeks
> present, the people generally spoke Macedonian, so my impression was
> that the Macedonian language at least is no longer forbidden. However,
> it is a shame that there is no Macedonian school and that the Macedonian
> language is not used or taught at school.
>
> That evening in the nearby town of Lerin, in the hall where the wedding
> celebrations continued, the band played Macedonian music but the words
> were sung in the Greek language.
>
> After the wedding we returned to Neret and I stayed with my cousin
> Dimitrios.
>
> The next day I awoke about 10 am. I was alone in the house. I looked at
> the photograph albums, which my cousin had already pointed out to me.
>
> Most of the photographs were of my relatives, and I saw photographs of
> my dead grandfather, Hristos Strezos. I also saw photos of his son, my
> uncle, Kosta Strezov, who now lives in the town of Burgas in Bulgaria.
> It was Kosta who had originally told me about this wedding and suggested
> I try to enter Greece to attend. Kosta had previously not been allowed
> to enter Greece and so on this occasion had not tried to enter to attend
> the wedding.
>
> I also saw a photograph of my grandfather?s other son, my father, Giorgi
> Strezovski. I was in the photograph, a child of about four sitting on
> his knee. The photo was taken in Bitola in about 1948. I was born in
> 1944 and my family had left Neret and gone to Bitola while I was a baby.
> My father was a patriot. He had told my mother that if we stayed in the
> village we would become Greeks but if we left we would have a chance to
> remain Macedonians. Many other Macedonians in Greece had felt the same.
>
> I believe that as a Macedonian intellectual my father was persecuted by
> Serbian nationalists. My father was a professional musician, a clarinet
> player and composer, but in the photograph he was wearing a Yugoslav
> army uniform. Because of the split between Tito and Stalin, he was
> imprisoned for about three years in Serbia during the time of the
> ?Informbiro?. His health deteriorated through maltreatment, and the
> prison doctor diagnosed that he would soon die. They let him free so
> that he would not die in the prison hospital. From Serbia he moved to
> Bitola and then Skopje but no doctor could help him and he passed away.
>
> I also saw my mother, Paraskeva Strezovska, with her sons Lenin and
> myself, Atanas, photographed in Ohrid, although I do not know in what
> year. I was about 10 years old.
>
> I also saw a photograph of myself as a Serbian soldier in the Yugoslav
> National Army. The photo was dated 25.10.1964.
>
> I also saw a photograph of my cousin, Toli Dimitrios, dressed as a Greek
> ?Evzon? guard.
>
> At my request, my cousin, Vasili Tolis, took me to the monastery Sv
> Naum, where there are the graves of my relatives, including that of my
> grandfather Hristos Strezos, who died in 1975. The family believes this
> was from beatings by Greek agents whom the Macedonians call ?andarti?.
> We believe the reason is that he received a letter from Australia which
> was addressed to Risto Strezovski and not Hristos Strezos, the Greek
> version of his name.
>
> I also saw the graves of my cousin Hristos Tolis and his wife Fane
> Filippoi, for whom I lit candles.
>
> Again, in this monastery also, I could see no writing to indicate its name.
>
> In the village cafe, I met with a group of Macedonians who spoke in
> Macedonian. I joined the group and they accepted me. I told them I was
> born in the village but had left as a baby and this was the first time I
> had come back in 59 years.
>
> They asked to see my passport and when they saw written the word ?Neret?
> they were surprised and said how good it was that I could successfully
> enter Greece. I told them the story of the taxi driver.
>
> They mentioned that even a letter which has Macedonian script or names
> and surnames is not delivered. They believed such letters are returned
> to sender but I believe they could be kept by the Greek authorities or
> even destroyed.
>
> After three days the time came for me to leave for Bitola. Around 5 pm I
> said my goodbyes to my relatives, and my cousin Vasili took me to the
> border at Medzitlija.
>
> On the way my cousin said he would bring me to Lerin to see my
> grandfather?s old shop where he practised as a tailor. My father also
> worked there as a boy before he became a musician. The shop has been
> closed since the late 1920s or early 1930s when my grandfather travelled
> to Australia to look for work. The shop looks as it was then and I took
> several photographs.
>
> We started again for Bitola and my cousin said to me ?Oh cousin, Tanase,
> if you had stayed here instead of emigrating you would have a house in
> Neret, a farm in Neret, and a shop in Lerin. Because your family was not
> here your grandfather Hristos gave everything to us and made us promise
> we would not sell the shop to anyone.? I did not have a comment to this,
> except to say ?Good luck to you for your inheritance and may you have a
> happy life. If I have another chance in my life time I will come back
> again. All I want is for us to be healthy and happy.?
>
> At the border, I wanted to make my farewells and to continue alone, in
> case there was some problem at the check point which I did not want my
> cousin to suffer. But my cousin said he would take me to the Macedonian
> border.
>
> At that moment I had a feeling that something unexpected could happen.
>
> But my cousin insisted with the words ?Don?t worry. I was an evzon guard
> here and everyone knows me.?
>
> When I gave my passport to the Greek official, he opened it and
> carefully read every part. He looked aghast and said ?Selo Neret?.
>
> As he said the Macedonian word ?Selo?, which is nowhere in the passport,
> I immediately realized that he may be of Macedonian background. The
> possibility that he could be reminded me of a ?Janichar?, a Turkish word
> from the Ottoman period that meant a Macedonian child who had been
> confiscated from their parents and raised as a soldier to kill Macedonians.
>
> I got a feeling that I would have a problem. I was mostly worried about
> my cousin Vasili as I would be returning to Australia but he would
> remain there.
>
> The official asked me in Greek ?What is Neret?? and what is ?MKD??. I
> shrugged my shoulders and as I do not speak Greek I answered to my
> cousin in Macedonian so that he could translate ?I do not know?, even if
> I did know.
>
> He rolled the passport nervously in his hands. He made a phone call and
> looked up some books, ostensibly to find out what ?Neret? and ?MKD?
> mean, although I believe he already knew what they meant. I waited for
> about an hour at the counter. Meanwhile a number of people with Greek
> passports passed through trouble-free at the same window. As I waited on
> my feet I began to feel I was being punished. The officer held his head
> with both hands and looked as if he could not believe what he was
> reading. I wondered how a person including myself could have passed the
> check point and not have been checked properly. Clearly there had been
> some sort of ?error? by the officer who had allowed me to enter Greece.
> I felt that the officer could get into serious trouble for allowing me
> in, and I felt sorry for him as what he had done was right from a
> humanitarian point of view. Meanwhile the officer I stood before still
> could not believe what he saw and continued to fidget with the passport.
> Finally he asked me when and how I entered Greece and who had let me in?
> My answer through my cousin who translated was that I did not know which
> officer it was but that I passed through the same road on which I now
> wished to leave. I told him the date and the time and that now two days
> later I am waiting patiently to leave as relatives of mine were on the
> Macedonian side of the border with a car.
>
> The officer seemed exhausted from asking me the same questions over and
> over and did not know what else to ask me. Finally he gave back the
> passport. I thanked him and quickly left the building.
>
> As I opened the car door and was about to sit, I saw an officer, a large
> man with a uniform, coming towards me. Unlike the other officer, he had
> a pistol on his hip. He spoke in rapid Greek, of which I could only
> understand the word ?passport?. Immediately I understood the problem and
> gave him the passport. He entered the checkpoint office from which I had
> just left.
>
> I waited on the footpath for about seven minutes. The large officer then
> returned and gave me the passport. I thanked him in English.
>
> We entered the car and left immediately for the Macedonian border.
>
> I wondered why the large officer had taken my passport when the first
> officer has already cleared me to leave. As we were driving I opened the
> passport to see if there had been any changes. I saw that the stamp for
> my entry into Greece had been badly smudged with blue ink so that the
> Greek words were no longer identifiable. There was also some new
> handwriting - the word ?AKYION?, presumably a Greek word.
>
> I also noticed that there was no stamp for my exit.
>
> In those moments I asked myself what all this meant? Whether that by
> destroying my entry stamp it made it look as if I had entered Greece
> illegally, perhaps by jumping the fence or crossing some farmland or
> bush etc, rather than having passed through the checkpoint? Was that the
> reason for defacing the passport - to destroy the evidence that I
> entered Greece legally? However I did not believe that they could fully
> destroy the evidence of my legal entry as surely the information would
> have been entered in their computer system?
>
> I decided I would take action to make these events known to various
> Macedonian human rights organizations in Bitola and Sydney and to the
> Australian Department of Foreign Affairs in Canberra.
>
> A year later I am still asking myself - what is the real problem? Is it
> that I entered Greece under my original Macedonian name and surname; is
> it that I entered Greece under the original Macedonian name of my
> village - Neret, instead of the Greek Polipotamos as they have renamed
> it; or is it that I entered Greece with the international abbreviation
> for Macedonia - MKD. I think it is that any or all three of the above
> would signify official recognition for the Macedonian people and country.
>
> Sydney, June 30, 2004
>
> The author can be contacted at PO Box 179, Ramsgate NSW 2217 Australia,
> or atan...@hotmail.com <mailto:atan...@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> --
George S. Tsapanos
>On Victor Bivell’s great website, the following recent story of a man’s
>visit to the village he was born in in Greece is featured.>
And of course not to forget that in Atanas StrezOVSKI's village the OURANIO
TOXO lost more than 50% of its votes that received during the previous
elections in which it participated.
Times have been changing, and those families like Atana's that armed themselves
with the COMMUNISTS and attacked Hellas in order to annexated it to the
JUGOSLAV REPUBLICS, finally are realizing it their MISTAKE.
We, on the other hand, we are NOT going to receive them back, unless various
conditions will be satisfied.
Number 1 condition, that of APOLOGYING to us, then we'll see.
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
George S. Tsapanos
>Nesto, stanno mi izglejda statiata, >
>> My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean
>> Macedonia>>
>> By Atanas Strezovski>>
I forgot to ask Galina, when does she thinks that Atanas Strezov chnaged his
name into Atanas StrezoVSKI?
I went to school with an Athanasios Strezos, they must be from the same
family................
Anastassios Retzios
Galina:
This is all made up and it is outrageous as well. I cannot believe
that anybody can be that clueless on the statements that he was making
in his passport. There was never a country called "Macedonia" with
MKD as its moniker when he was born (probably in the late '30s), not
even before and not now either. And he knew very well that the name
of the village was Polypotamos because he was born after the name
change was affected and the name of the village ought to have been in
his birth certificate. Outrageous lies. It would be the same as if I
have tried to enter Turkey with my birthplace in my passport as
"Constantinopolis, Greece". How well do you think this would have got
down with the Turks???
You people must start to get serious and abandon these wild lies and
provocations.
ADR
> On Victor Bivell?s great website, the following recent story of a man?s
> visit to the village he was born in in Greece is featured. The
> following is the text only of the story. All of the accompanying
> pictures and documents are on the website at
> http://www.pollitecon.com/html/life/my_first_visit.html
>
> My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean
> Macedonia
>
> By Atanas Strezovski
>
> I am Atanas Strezovski, an Australian citizen and passport holder. In
> July 2003, while on holiday in Europe, I decided to visit my birthplace
> to see my relatives and friends and to be present at the wedding of the
> daughter of aunty, Georgiou Elefterija.
>
> While in Bitola, the Republic of Macedonia, I had received an
> invitation, written using the Greek alphabet to make Macedonian words.
> The letter said that I would be welcome ?dear nephew? to attend the
> wedding of Hrisula and Atanasios and that they would wait ?with warm
> heart? for me to arrive.
>
> On my first attempt to return to Greece for a visit in August 1994 I had
> been denied entry - the border official told me this was because my
> passport had my birthplace as ?Neret? and the country as ?MKD?. Neret is
> the original Macedonian name for my village, and MKD is the
> international abbreviation for Macedonia. However, after the Balkan Wars
> the region became part of Greece and the village was renamed into the
> Greek ?Polipotamos?. The border official said that there was ?no way? I
> could enter Greece while the terminology ?Neret? and ?MKD? were in my
> passport.
>
> On this occasion, because I had the invitation, I had a small hope that
> the Greek authorities would permit me to enter Greece when I arrived at
> the border checkpoint at Medzitlija. To encourage me, my mother,
> Paraskeva, who was also born in Neret but now lives in Bitola, had said
> to me that many people had been let into Greece because they had such an
> invitation. But I later realized that the invitation was irrelevant to
> the Greek authorities.
>
> I made a deal with a Macedonian taxi driver that he would take me to the
> village Neret for 25 euros.
>
> We set out at 8.30 am. The whole time I was afraid that they would not
> let me into Greece, as I know that many Macedonians born in Aegean
> Macedonia (now called northern Greece) have been wiped out from the
> records forever by the Greek authorities.
>
> Despite the history and my own experience in 1994, I kept my small hope
> that they would let me enter. On the way, the owner of the taxi said
> that many hundreds of Macedonians with Australian and Canadian passports
> had been denied entry at the border simply because their birthplace was
> written under the original Macedonian name, for example ?Buf,
> Makedonia?. According to the taxi driver, the Greek Government does not
> want to see Macedonian names and that is why they turn people back. The
> Government wants to see these toponyms written only under the new Greek
> names with which they had Christened them.
>
> He said that when the Macedonians were denied entry they became very
> unhappy and that as a taxi driver he was also unhappy as the passengers
> paid for their journey but had not reached their destinations. What the
> Greeks are doing is very unfair, he said, but they are very powerful
> internationally and what can the Macedonians do? He then added that he
> has two Greek border officers who are good friends of his and that if
> one of them is on duty there is a small possibility that I could pass
> through. Otherwise there would be no chance at all, he said.
>
> About 9 am we reached the check point, Medzitlija. He told me to wait in
> the taxi and he would test the ground for me. A few minutes later he
> returned and said it was successful.
>
> When I saw the stamp in my passport, I was surprised that I would be
> allowed to pass the border, as I could clearly remember not being
> allowed to pass through in 1994. I could not believe the situation. I
> was overjoyed.
>
> As soon as we started the car, I said to the taxi driver ?The ice is
> broken, the times are softer, and even the Greeks can see that the
> Macedonians are people too. This is probably because of criticism and
> pressure from human rights organizations and the European politicians
> and community.? The young taxi driver said ?Do not be so happy until the
> job is done and we reach your village.? The driver said that although he
> had been to many villages, this was the first time he was going to
> Neret. We would need to ask directions from somebody and, as there were
> a lot of Greek agents in plain clothes, to be on the safe side we would
> need to ask in the Greek language and to ask for the village using its
> Greek name. ?Pujse to Polipotamos? he said to me in Greek to show me
> how, as I was on the footpath side of the car.
>
> And that is what happened. When we met a women, I said the above words
> and she answered something in Greek which I did not understand. But the
> taxi driver told me even if I do not understand what she is saying, she
> was showing with her hand that we need to turn right at the T junction.
>
> We continued on for another 10 minutes. But to ensure we were going in
> the right direction, we stopped again and asked a man who was plastering
> a house - using the same Greek words above. His short answer - in
> perfect Macedonian - was that we were on the road to the village Neret
> (?pa Vie patuvate za selo Neret?). With a similar short reply - also in
> Macedonian - I said to him with a smile ?Yes, we are going there.? ("Da,
> tamu odime.?) He gave us precise directions. ?Turn left at the third
> bridge. It is the last village. You cannot miss it.?
>
> In 15 minutes we arrived at the village Neret. At once I was greeted by
> my relatives, my aunty Elefterija and my cousins Dimitrios and Vasili Tolis.
>
> The wedding was underway when we arrived. The band played Macedonian and
> Greek music. But there was only music - no singing. Even well known
> Macedonian national songs, such as ?Mariche Le Lichno Devojche? (Maria
> You Pretty Girl) were only played by the band but no one sang to the music.
>
> Until 4 pm the ceremonies were only in the centre of the village. Around
> 3 pm I went to the church to speak with the priest. There was no sign of
> the name of the church - not in Macedonian nor in Greek. I asked the
> priest but he refused to answer. He seemed frightened. I asked one of
> the guests near me ?What is the name of this church?? The lady replied
> ?Sv Bogorodica? (St Mary). I asked why there is no name on the church?
> Why it is blank? She said ?We know the name?. When I asked the priest if
> the church is called Sv Bogorodica he said ?Yes? in Macedonian, but made
> no further comment. But the service in the church was entirely in the
> Greek language.
>
> Outside the church and in the village, when there were no Greeks
> present, the people generally spoke Macedonian, so my impression was
> that the Macedonian language at least is no longer forbidden. However,
> it is a shame that there is no Macedonian school and that the Macedonian
> language is not used or taught at school.
>
> That evening in the nearby town of Lerin, in the hall where the wedding
> celebrations continued, the band played Macedonian music but the words
> were sung in the Greek language.
>
> After the wedding we returned to Neret and I stayed with my cousin
> Dimitrios.
>
> The next day I awoke about 10 am. I was alone in the house. I looked at
> the photograph albums, which my cousin had already pointed out to me.
>
> Most of the photographs were of my relatives, and I saw photographs of
> my dead grandfather, Hristos Strezos. I also saw photos of his son, my
> uncle, Kosta Strezov, who now lives in the town of Burgas in Bulgaria.
> It was Kosta who had originally told me about this wedding and suggested
> I try to enter Greece to attend. Kosta had previously not been allowed
> to enter Greece and so on this occasion had not tried to enter to attend
> the wedding.
>
> I also saw a photograph of my grandfather?s other son, my father, Giorgi
> Strezovski. I was in the photograph, a child of about four sitting on
> his knee. The photo was taken in Bitola in about 1948. I was born in
> 1944 and my family had left Neret and gone to Bitola while I was a baby.
> My father was a patriot. He had told my mother that if we stayed in the
> village we would become Greeks but if we left we would have a chance to
> remain Macedonians. Many other Macedonians in Greece had felt the same.
>
> I believe that as a Macedonian intellectual my father was persecuted by
> Serbian nationalists. My father was a professional musician, a clarinet
> player and composer, but in the photograph he was wearing a Yugoslav
> army uniform. Because of the split between Tito and Stalin, he was
> imprisoned for about three years in Serbia during the time of the
> ?Informbiro?. His health deteriorated through maltreatment, and the
> prison doctor diagnosed that he would soon die. They let him free so
> that he would not die in the prison hospital. From Serbia he moved to
> Bitola and then Skopje but no doctor could help him and he passed away.
>
> I also saw my mother, Paraskeva Strezovska, with her sons Lenin and
> myself, Atanas, photographed in Ohrid, although I do not know in what
> year. I was about 10 years old.
>
> I also saw a photograph of myself as a Serbian soldier in the Yugoslav
> National Army. The photo was dated 25.10.1964.
>
> I also saw a photograph of my cousin, Toli Dimitrios, dressed as a Greek
> ?Evzon? guard.
>
> At my request, my cousin, Vasili Tolis, took me to the monastery Sv
> Naum, where there are the graves of my relatives, including that of my
> grandfather Hristos Strezos, who died in 1975. The family believes this
> was from beatings by Greek agents whom the Macedonians call ?andarti?.
> We believe the reason is that he received a letter from Australia which
> was addressed to Risto Strezovski and not Hristos Strezos, the Greek
> version of his name.
>
> I also saw the graves of my cousin Hristos Tolis and his wife Fane
> Filippoi, for whom I lit candles.
>
> Again, in this monastery also, I could see no writing to indicate its name.
>
> In the village cafe, I met with a group of Macedonians who spoke in
> Macedonian. I joined the group and they accepted me. I told them I was
> born in the village but had left as a baby and this was the first time I
> had come back in 59 years.
>
> They asked to see my passport and when they saw written the word ?Neret?
> they were surprised and said how good it was that I could successfully
> enter Greece. I told them the story of the taxi driver.
>
> They mentioned that even a letter which has Macedonian script or names
> and surnames is not delivered. They believed such letters are returned
> to sender but I believe they could be kept by the Greek authorities or
> even destroyed.
>
> After three days the time came for me to leave for Bitola. Around 5 pm I
> said my goodbyes to my relatives, and my cousin Vasili took me to the
> border at Medzitlija.
>
> On the way my cousin said he would bring me to Lerin to see my
> grandfather?s old shop where he practised as a tailor. My father also
> worked there as a boy before he became a musician. The shop has been
> closed since the late 1920s or early 1930s when my grandfather travelled
> to Australia to look for work. The shop looks as it was then and I took
> several photographs.
>
> We started again for Bitola and my cousin said to me ?Oh cousin, Tanase,
> if you had stayed here instead of emigrating you would have a house in
> Neret, a farm in Neret, and a shop in Lerin. Because your family was not
> here your grandfather Hristos gave everything to us and made us promise
> we would not sell the shop to anyone.? I did not have a comment to this,
> except to say ?Good luck to you for your inheritance and may you have a
> happy life. If I have another chance in my life time I will come back
> again. All I want is for us to be healthy and happy.?
>
> At the border, I wanted to make my farewells and to continue alone, in
> case there was some problem at the check point which I did not want my
> cousin to suffer. But my cousin said he would take me to the Macedonian
> border.
>
> At that moment I had a feeling that something unexpected could happen.
>
> But my cousin insisted with the words ?Don?t worry. I was an evzon guard
> here and everyone knows me.?
>
> When I gave my passport to the Greek official, he opened it and
> carefully read every part. He looked aghast and said ?Selo Neret?.
>
> As he said the Macedonian word ?Selo?, which is nowhere in the passport,
> I immediately realized that he may be of Macedonian background. The
> possibility that he could be reminded me of a ?Janichar?, a Turkish word
> from the Ottoman period that meant a Macedonian child who had been
> confiscated from their parents and raised as a soldier to kill Macedonians.
>
> I got a feeling that I would have a problem. I was mostly worried about
> my cousin Vasili as I would be returning to Australia but he would
> remain there.
>
> The official asked me in Greek ?What is Neret?? and what is ?MKD??. I
> shrugged my shoulders and as I do not speak Greek I answered to my
> cousin in Macedonian so that he could translate ?I do not know?, even if
> I did know.
>
> He rolled the passport nervously in his hands. He made a phone call and
> looked up some books, ostensibly to find out what ?Neret? and ?MKD?
> mean, although I believe he already knew what they meant. I waited for
> about an hour at the counter. Meanwhile a number of people with Greek
> passports passed through trouble-free at the same window. As I waited on
> my feet I began to feel I was being punished. The officer held his head
> with both hands and looked as if he could not believe what he was
> reading. I wondered how a person including myself could have passed the
> check point and not have been checked properly. Clearly there had been
> some sort of ?error? by the officer who had allowed me to enter Greece.
> I felt that the officer could get into serious trouble for allowing me
> in, and I felt sorry for him as what he had done was right from a
> humanitarian point of view. Meanwhile the officer I stood before still
> could not believe what he saw and continued to fidget with the passport.
> Finally he asked me when and how I entered Greece and who had let me in?
> My answer through my cousin who translated was that I did not know which
> officer it was but that I passed through the same road on which I now
> wished to leave. I told him the date and the time and that now two days
> later I am waiting patiently to leave as relatives of mine were on the
> Macedonian side of the border with a car.
>
> The officer seemed exhausted from asking me the same questions over and
> over and did not know what else to ask me. Finally he gave back the
> passport. I thanked him and quickly left the building.
>
> As I opened the car door and was about to sit, I saw an officer, a large
> man with a uniform, coming towards me. Unlike the other officer, he had
> a pistol on his hip. He spoke in rapid Greek, of which I could only
> understand the word ?passport?. Immediately I understood the problem and
> gave him the passport. He entered the checkpoint office from which I had
> just left.
>
> I waited on the footpath for about seven minutes. The large officer then
> returned and gave me the passport. I thanked him in English.
>
> We entered the car and left immediately for the Macedonian border.
>
> I wondered why the large officer had taken my passport when the first
> officer has already cleared me to leave. As we were driving I opened the
> passport to see if there had been any changes. I saw that the stamp for
> my entry into Greece had been badly smudged with blue ink so that the
> Greek words were no longer identifiable. There was also some new
> handwriting - the word ?AKYION?, presumably a Greek word.
>
> I also noticed that there was no stamp for my exit.
>
> In those moments I asked myself what all this meant? Whether that by
> destroying my entry stamp it made it look as if I had entered Greece
> illegally, perhaps by jumping the fence or crossing some farmland or
> bush etc, rather than having passed through the checkpoint? Was that the
> reason for defacing the passport - to destroy the evidence that I
> entered Greece legally? However I did not believe that they could fully
> destroy the evidence of my legal entry as surely the information would
> have been entered in their computer system?
>
> I decided I would take action to make these events known to various
> Macedonian human rights organizations in Bitola and Sydney and to the
> Australian Department of Foreign Affairs in Canberra.
>
> A year later I am still asking myself - what is the real problem? Is it
> that I entered Greece under my original Macedonian name and surname; is
> it that I entered Greece under the original Macedonian name of my
> village - Neret, instead of the Greek Polipotamos as they have renamed
> it; or is it that I entered Greece with the international abbreviation
> for Macedonia - MKD. I think it is that any or all three of the above
> would signify official recognition for the Macedonian people and country.
>
> Sydney, June 30, 2004
>
> The author can be contacted at PO Box 179, Ramsgate NSW 2217 Australia,
> or atan...@hotmail.com <mailto:atan...@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> --
Yavrukurt
> Blockhead Slavs with communist feelings are not welcome in Greece. In fact
> they should be hunted down and culled lest they murder more Greeks. You
> should also stop using Greek names like Macedonia simply because the Greek
> people don't want you to forgetting about the other facts like you use Greek
> names to claim Greek land. What are you block-heads possibly going to do
> with Macedonia once you steal it from Greece??? Raise its standard of
> living?? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Brutes of the worst calibre.
>
> Furthermore you should not even use the Greek religion and alphabet - they
> were gifts that you do not deserve, you slant eyed savages from cannibal
> Asia. You should not even use Greek Christian, sorry pronames for you are
> atheist, communist scum in reality. Do Greeks use your ugly names for their
> children - Zoran, Zeljko, Bogan to name a few - no way no.
>
Ooooops, NOW he's in trouble !
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/racial_discrimination/cyberracism/vilification.html
Tsk !
A CLASSIC example of "RACIAL VILIFICATION, a serious offence under
Australian law
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/racial_discrimination/cyberracism/vilification.html#complaints
Dorian West
"Yavrukurt" <pi...@easy.com> wrote in message
news:41587dc.04071...@posting.google.com...
Defending Greece against savages like Mongolslavs and you doesn't count. We
here in AU like to bomb Middle Easterners together with the British and the
Americans. You are a clown and an idiot.
Get me the kebab bwoy and shut the fuck up.
bt
are not lies and they are true stories, that happen every day.
You need speak to real people and then you will understand.
I dont why you keep on living in denial.
Anastassios Retzios <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.04071...@posting.google.com...
++
I don't see the point of your post - or how your aunt's story is related? How does having a Bulgarian passport relate to racism against Macedonian tourists? Should Macedonians all go get a Bulgarian passport so that racists won't discriminate against them and deprive them of theor rights?
++
++
George S. Tsapanos wrote:
nikolayds wrote:Nesto, stanno mi izglejda statiata, >My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in Aegean Macedonia>> By Atanas Strezovski>>I forgot to ask Galina, when does she thinks that Atanas Strezov chnaged his name into Atanas StrezoVSKI? I went to school with an Athanasios Strezos, they must be from the same family................
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<40f228f5$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>... Galina: This is all made up and it is outrageous as well.
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<40f228f5$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>... Galina: This is all made up and it is outrageous as well.
I cannot believe that anybody can be that clueless on the statements that he was making in his passport. There was never a country called "Macedonia" with MKD as its moniker when he was born (probably in the late '30s), not even before and not now either.
And he knew very well that the name of the village was Polypotamos because he was born after the name change was affected and the name of the village ought to have been in his birth certificate. Outrageous lies. It would be the same as if I have tried to enter Turkey with my birthplace in my passport as "Constantinopolis, Greece".
How well do you think this would have got down with the Turks???
++
He's hidden his real posting host IP.
Dennis Byzantinos
> Nesto, stanno mi izglejda statiata,
>
> Po princip na Bulgaro-Grckata granica ne vratat bugari t.e.
> bratovcheda ot Burgas trebe da nema problemi. Vero 1994 beshe mnogo
> zategnato polujenieto vo Grcko. A inache mi pravi nepriatno
> vpechetlenie pa zashto ne sa s normalni imeta rodninite vo Grcia?
> Moiata Lelia (antie) ima Bulgarsko ime Radka (a nie i vikame Ati) i
> isto e s grcko drjanstvo. Ne moj da se davat taka imenata. Zabeliaza
> li, nema ovde - a samo kao e vo Bulgaria - tam (tamu). Iaz neznam pa
> zashto toz chovek isto mu e imeto na -ski - ne zvuchi dobre u nas. Ne
> mi kazvai deka na nas ova e Ruska nadstavka - Ja go znam ovo, obake
> ono e pridobito po-otdavna.
> Ako imashe bugarski pasos nemashe da ima problemi. A inache te grcite
> sa si nenormalni, a na tez malki puktove (KPP) si izbovat kompleksite.
Ovojaem Nikolai,
Ako as probvam da vlizam v Bulgaria s pasport koito pishi Roden Grad
Philipopolis, Greece,shte me pusnat li da vlizam?
Tochno po kakav otnoshenie Grcite sa nenormalni?
Pozravi.
Dennis
George S. Tsapanos
>Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece>
An UNARMED child? Why he was FORCED to flee Greece?
The answer is to be found in your previous message, you wrote refering to
Athanasios:
"To encourage me, my mother,
Paraskeva, who was also born in Neret but now lives in Bitola,........."
Now, how come his mother lives in that HOLE full with Albanians if she was born
in Greece?
Let me tell you why:
His parents were COMMUNISTS and like all the other COMMUNISTS fleeing Greece,
they took their entire families into what they believed was the COMMUNIST
PARADISE.
Well.......it wasn't a PARADISE at all!
Now, after 55 years or so, after taking the COMMUNIST arms to attack Greece in
their attempt to annex Makedonia into TITO's "Socialist Republics", now they
cry foul!
Now, they want to RETURN, now they are "Makedonians" the SAME people that
sold-out Makedonia to the COMMUNIST BASTARDS and their ideology.
Did his mother go into the wedding?
I bet you shs didn't, she is MARKED very well by our people the ones that do
not forget.
Give them a pass for 24 hours to come and CRY, to come and realize what and
where the TRUE Makedonia did asd is, to come and APOLOGIZE, if not to us first,
to their CHILDREN, gthose UNARMED children that they were.........FORCED to
flee Greece, because Democratic Hellas and the AMERICANS were arriving to make
slaves out of them.............
Pathetic stories, full with lies, intended for soft heards and IDIOTS that did
not learn the TRUTH and they hide their head in the sand.
Thats why Athanasios STREZOS left Greece, he was taken by his COMMUNIST family,
together with other peoples children that they were KIDNAPPED.
What a SICK ideology will perform such a task for its own glorification?
Only COMMUNISM can do certain things.
George S. Tsapanos
>I dunno, did you call him Atanasi or Tanas. Did you call him Strezov or
>Strezovski? Did members of his family have the pleasure of being
>occupied and harassed by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia?>
Kingdom of Jugoslavia?
He never saw it.
He arrived in Jugoslavia under TITO's protection since his parents were
fighting against the evil West, since his parents were fighting for annexation
of Makedonia into the Socialist System of TITO, since his parents didn't like
Greece.
Well........let them stay in Monastiri together with the Albanians, if they
climb the hills and the mountain to the East of Monastiri they can see the
lights of Polypotamos and they can hear the music played in the central square
of the village.That should be sufficient to them.
Yannis the Macedonian
Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece.
You pathetic half-truth lover SlavoSkopian propagandist !!!
Your lies to the SlavoSkopians that don't allow to have access to other
sources except yours !!
Atanas followed his family that attempted to make Macedonia Slavic and
failed ! This would be the only ways to stay "Macedonians" as he said !!
( hahahahahahahaha!!). Now what is Macedonian on him and you imbecile
SlavoSkopian propagandist ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Jason K. Lambrou
how come the rest of the family stayed in the village?
++
George S. Tsapanos wrote:
a buncha racism.Ê Shame
Galina wrote:Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece>
Now, how come his mother lives in that HOLE full with Albanians if she was born in Greece? Let me tell you why: His parents were COMMUNISTS
Do you think the world ought to condemn anyone related to the Colonels?
Ilinden
Amsterdam Netherlands?
Anastassios Retzios
> How on earth can you say these are lies? , these
> are not lies and they are true stories, that happen every day.
> You need speak to real people and then you will understand.
Are you going to seriously contest here that this guy did not know the
country and the city he was born in? His part of the world was
officially within Greece since 1912 and his village was renamed in
1926. For him to state that he was born in the country of "Macedonia"
- "MKD" in the town of "Neret" is a clear refusal of Greek
sovereignty. Yes or no? Come on, this is a simple question...answer
it.
> I dont why you keep on living in denial.
I do not live in any kind of denial. I am continuously amazed by
stories like these that pretend to show how "bad" the Greeks are.
Here we have a guy who clearly knows that he was born in Greece
(unless he is a certified idiot) who does not want to put this fact in
his passport. Well, if he does not want to state in his passport that
he was born in Greece, we should never let him in, period.
I am quite in sympathy with those who live in FYROM and wish to visit
their families. No obstacles should be put in their way and they
should cross the border unaccosted. I am all for that. But people
who deny Greek sovereignty by their own declarations (country and
place of birth), these should not be allowed in the country.....ever.
Am I clear. What did you not understand???
Because I cannot believe that anybody can be as outrageous as this
...I believe this is a made-up story.
Now, BT, had you been born in Greece would you have stated so in your
passport or not? If not, why not?
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> Anastassios Retzios wrote:
>
> >++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<40f228f5$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> >
> >Galina:
> >
> >This is all made up and it is outrageous as well.
> >
>
> His email was provided. Email him with your insults if you wish.
Why? Doesn't FYROM propaganda issue emails?
> > I cannot believe
> >that anybody can be that clueless on the statements that he was making
> >in his passport. There was never a country called "Macedonia" with
> >MKD as its moniker when he was born (probably in the late '30s), not
> >even before and not now either.
> >
>
> Who is clueless here
>
> > And he knew very well that the name
> >of the village was Polypotamos because he was born after the name
> >change was affected and the name of the village ought to have been in
> >his birth certificate. Outrageous lies. It would be the same as if I
> >have tried to enter Turkey with my birthplace in my passport as
> >"Constantinopolis, Greece".
> >
>
> I have friends who have entered Turkey listing Byzantine names for their
> birthplaces including one guy (local, you might know him) who listed
> himself as from Ephesus, Turkey
Yes, but not "Ephesus, Greece", right??? I am losing my patience
here. Are you thick? Stick to what this guy did. He knew he was
born in Greece in the town of Polypotamos. His part of the world was
in Greece since 1912, the village was renamed in 1926. So now, he
obtains a passport that claims that he was born in "Neret, Macedonia".
What is this guy doing? Is he crazy or what? Or is he making a
statement? Is he trying to provoke us? Whatever he is or attemting to
do, he has no business entering Greece. I hope that the border guards
rough him up a little bit too!!!
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece.
I personally do not hold him responsible for this. Yes, a lot of
people fled for all kinds of reasons. My guess is that he fled
because his family (but not his relatives)fought for the losing cause
(and we all know what that cause was). Apparently, the rest of his
relatives did not and benefited a lot in the process (got all the
family's property) and that is thrown on this face during his visit.
What I hold against him is his strict adherence to the Macedonist
cause that even FYROM has abandoned. No, he was not born in Greece,
he was born in "Macedonia". No, he was not born in Polypotamos, he
was born in Neret! Is this guy for real??? OK, he may have forgotten
the name of the village (a little difficult to believe ...but let's
play along here), but did he really forget that he was born in
Greece?????? Come on....do you think that we are all idiots????
ADR
> --
George S. Tsapanos
>a buncha racism. Shame>
Really? Actually I am very proud!
>Do you think the world ought to condemn anyone related to the Colonels?>
Still you don't get it. If there was one entity that did wrong to the
Makedonians (and not just to the ones that do not wish to identify themselves
as Hellenes), this was the COMMUNIST system.
Had not been for it, today the Balkans would have been a different place for
everybody, THINK about it.
On the other hand the insistence of certain IDIOTS with regards a Makedonian
ETHNICITY speaking and writing in SLAV is becoming PATHETIC.
The people back home they did realize it, lets see how long is going to take
for the SKOPIANS.
The numbers of the OURANIO TOXO, even under his new name/allienation, are
indicative of the situation.
There is not a Makedonian minority, there is not a Makedonian language let
alone father Tsarkia's Church.
Do the Slavs and the Albanians of F.Y.R.O.M. wish to wake-up and accept their
responcibilities and become part of NATO and the EU?
Then better change certain things, NATO and the EU are not like the ISRAELI
goverment begging for friends and allies left and right, in order to recognize
them under a name that was taken in the heat of ANTI-COMMUNISTIC euforia.
Let alone of course the fact that the name have been changed already three
times, time to chnage one more for GOOD.
Ilinden
Yannis the Macedonian
> Jovanche why do you write Macedonia, FTCOG , when you write from
> Amsterdam Netherlands?
Hahahahahahaha !!
To hoax you !!
Do never forged that Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Yannis the Macedonian
> ++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:<40f37796$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> > Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece.
>
> I personally do not hold him responsible for this. Yes, a lot of
> ADR
He is responsible as long as he believes the lies his ancestors and
Tito-SlavoSkopian propaganda told him. It is proven by the fact that,
despite he was born at 1944 ( that is 20 years after restoration of
Macedonian toponyms in Macedonia, Greece) he insists to use Slavic and
Turkish toponyms !!!
I am wondering, if he was born in Ptolemais he would call the city after
his Turkish name ( that was Kajlar ) ??
hahahahahahahahaha !!
Germans showed the way to abolish the responsibility for ancestors' crimes.
Dear ethnic SlavoSkopians, have you found anything Macedonian on you ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Ilinden
George S. Tsapanos
>Rechkov, he was born in Aegean Macedonia in the Macedonian territory >not on
Greek territory, which right now is occupied by the Greki or
>Turkoethiopians. My Grandfather was born in Macedonia ( Now Aegean
>Macedonia which was under the Turks) my grandfather was born in
>Macedonia not in Turkey .Tikvar don't write gluposti please.>
SKOPIAN
Are you still drunk ?
Makedonia was and is HELLAS, wake up.
Now, take your SLAV co-peasant and get the HELL OUT of Makedonia.
Go and live in the SIBERIAN STEPPES, go and live in BELOYIANNIS VILLAGES, go
and live in RUSSIA, go and live in HUNGARY, go and live in NORTHERN KOREA.
We don't want you in MAKEDONIA, do you understand it, is this CLEAR ENOUGH TO
YOU, IS THIS FAIR ENOUGH TO YOU?
Anastassios Retzios
> Rechkov, he was born in Aegean Macedonia in the Macedonian territory
> not on Greek territory, which right now is occupied by the Greki or
> Turkoethiopians. My Grandfather was born in Macedonia ( Now Aegean
> Macedonia which was under the Turks) my grandfather was born in
> Macedonia not in Turkey .Tikvar don't write gluposti please.
You are seriously delude: both he and you were born in the country of
Greece, period ...there is no argument on this. Now, if in your
passport you want to indicate "Macedonia" because you believe that
"Macedonia" is under Greek occupation, you can make this statement but
just do not expect us to admit you in the country.
As for your grandfather, he was born in the Ottoman Empire. Macedonia
was never in Turkey. Turkey (or Turkish Republic) was formed in 1923
by Kemal Ataturk.
These are the realities. You can dream as much as you want to.
ADR
> --
Nikolay
> Nikolaj,
>
> I don't see the point of your post - or how your aunt's story is
> related? How does having a Bulgarian passport relate to racism against
> Macedonian tourists? Should Macedonians all go get a Bulgarian passport
> so that racists won't discriminate against them and deprive them of
> theor rights?
I am just saying it is kind of murky. That愀 all.
And for the passport I meant the Bulgarian cousin - he suppose to not
have a problems in Greece. That愀 part.
Otherwise if it is a true - it is outrageous and should be condemned.
A inache i az sym slushal podobni istorii ama za predi 10 godini pone
- ne 2004
Nikolay
>
> Ovojaem Nikolai,
>
> Ako as probvam da vlizam v Bulgaria s pasport koito pishi Roden Grad
> Philipopolis, Greece,shte me pusnat li da vlizam?
>
> Tochno po kakav otnoshenie Grcite sa nenormalni?
> Pozravi.
> Dennis
>
Razbira se che shte Vi pusnat - pone ne prepolagam niakoi da Vi
napravi problem - daje dali shte go prochete e dosta sporno.
Che zashto da kazvame Plovdiv ne e Filipopolis? - Bil e za 2000 godini
- posle e stanal Plovdiv - a predi Pulpudava. Taka che - zashto ne?
Turci koito imat v Pasportite si Turskite imena na Gradove i sela -
niamat problemi.
In my mind the Greeks overreacting /nenrmalni v takava reakcia - a ne
nenormalni v smisyl ludi/ on those issues (Names of the villigies and
cities). I do not mind to call Petrich - Petrici (this is more
relevant example) in Greece - why not?
I will never start called Solun - Tesalonica - I can not even
pronounced.
Even the language I can agree to be called Macedonian language
(outside of BG of course) because it is internal metter.
And I悲 like to point about the triabal name - Hungarian (Hunoguri) is
name of the Bulgarian tribe ;-) they lived together - at least
according to Roman Sources. Rusi is name of the tribe in Sweden,
Franks in Germany, Angli is German tribe as well and etc.
I understand the huge historical missunderstanding it is cause but the
damage is done.
S Uvajenie
-- Nikolay
Nikolay
> ++ <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<40f37796$0$1189$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> > Atanas was an UNARMED child when he was forced to flee Greece.
>
> I personally do not hold him responsible for this. Yes, a lot of
> people fled for all kinds of reasons. My guess is that he fled
> because his family (but not his relatives)fought for the losing cause
> (and we all know what that cause was). Apparently, the rest of his
> relatives did not and benefited a lot in the process (got all the
> family's property) and that is thrown on this face during his visit.
>
> What I hold against him is his strict adherence to the Macedonist
> cause that even FYROM has abandoned. No, he was not born in Greece,
> he was born in "Macedonia". No, he was not born in Polypotamos, he
> was born in Neret! Is this guy for real??? OK, he may have forgotten
> the name of the village (a little difficult to believe ...but let's
> play along here), but did he really forget that he was born in
> Greece?????? Come on....do you think that we are all idiots????
>
> ADR
>
I do not know here one thing,
In the passport of my wife grandmother is written she is born in
Solun, Greece (in 1924). Is she going to be denied enterence in
Greece?
Or the people born in The Occupation of Egeja from Bulgaria in WWII is
it going to be denied the enterence?
It is thin ice - you know ;-)
Nikolay
Bulgarian Church Certificate is put the name Solun and in Buglarian
passport as well the name Solun.
Her borther (born before 1912) the name is Salonica so I belive he
will not have a problem ;-).
I just wonder I want them to visit one more time the city they have
been born.
--Nikolay
Jason K. Lambrou
how come Atanas never answers his E-mail?
Anastassios Retzios
I do not think so, if Solun is the typical name used for Thessaloniki
in Bulgaria. If it was "Solun, Macedonia", then one may have had
problems. As for the other issue that you have raised, people who
were born in Greek Macedonia during Bulgarian occupation were still
born in Greece (the territory was not ceded to Bulgaria). So, if
these people are entering in their passports "Bulgaria" as the
country of birth, they are making a very hostile statement and should
not be allowed in.
ADR
Yannis the Macedonian
> > What I hold against him is his strict adherence to the Macedonist
> > cause that even FYROM has abandoned. No, he was not born in Greece,
> > he was born in "Macedonia". No, he was not born in Polypotamos, he
> > was born in Neret! Is this guy for real??? OK, he may have forgotten
> > the name of the village (a little difficult to believe ...but let's
> > play along here), but did he really forget that he was born in
> > Greece?????? Come on....do you think that we are all idiots????
> > ADR
> I do not know here one thing,
> In the passport of my wife grandmother is written she is born in
> Solun, Greece (in 1924). Is she going to be denied enterence in
> Greece?
> Or the people born in The Occupation of Egeja from Bulgaria in WWII is
> it going to be denied the enterence?
> It is thin ice - you know ;-)
No, Nikolay !
Bulgarians do not claim Thessaloniki and Macedonia, do they ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Anastassios Retzios
I think that as long as the country of birth is Greece, there would be no problems.
ADR
Nikolay
Thx
Nikolay
I believe not. At least not me.
It is 21st century - if everything go well soon Bulgaria and Greece
will be almost in the same country - so what is the point to claim
anything.
Major reason for Solun was the Economical as you are aware of it - but
then in 2007 it will not be an issue ;-).
Ilinden
Abre Anastas think about it.
Pozdrav Ilinden the Macedonian
Anastassios Retzios
> Mr. Retzios my grandfather was born in 1880 in Macedonia at that time
> Macedonia was not divided by the Serbians, Greeks and Bulgarians so the
> village and the territory was Macedonian with it's original Macedonian
> name the Greki in 1926 they changed the Macedonian name into Greek , so
> the Ottoman Turks were in Macedonia at that time so you are telling
> people that my grandfather was born in Turkey?
> Abre Anastas think about it.
> Pozdrav Ilinden the Macedonian
Well, we have now established that you do not read my posts at all and
you continue posting absolutely clueless. Your grandfather was born
in the vilayet of Monastir (most probably) of the Ottoman Empire.
These were the legal entities. Turkey (or the Turkish Republic) did
not get established as a legal entity until 1923. All of these I have
told you previously.
There was no legal entity called Macedonia anywhere on the map at the
time of your grandfather's birth. The first entity called Macedonia
was established by the Greek state in 1913 with Rangaves as its first
governor. The last entity to be called Macedonia prior to this was
the Byzantine province based in Hadrianople (and comprising Greek
Thrace and SE Bulgaria). This Macedonia was officially abolished in
the 13th century although continued to exist unofficially until the
16th century.
ADR
June R Harton
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
>On Victor Bivell’s great website,
Bwahahahahahahha
>the following recent story of a man’s visit to the
>My First Visit To My Birthplace, The Village Neret Near Lerin in
>Aegean Macedonia
Stop posting lies, Schneider. That last area is the REAL Macedonia and
Fyrom is Macedonian nothing. As is that Bulgar.
The following shows the truth that you try to hide and shows that
(since you know all this data) that you are *compulsively* lying here.
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And for the real Macedonians:
And here is some real history of the area:
Encyclopedia Britania 1911
© 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
MACEDONIA
BIBLI0GRAPHY.—Jewitt and Hope, Corporation Plaic and Insignia of
Office,
&c. (2 vols., 1895); J. R. Garstin, Irish State and Civic Maces, &c.
(1898); J. Paton, Scottish Historyand Life (1902); J. H. Buck, Old
Plate
(1903), pp. 124—140; Cripps, Old English Plate (9th ed., 1906),
pp.
394—404; E. Alfred Jones, Old Plate at the Tower of London
(1908); ed., “
Some Historic Silver Maces,” Burlington Magazine (Dec. 1908).
(E. A. J.)
snip
In Salonica, Serres, Kavala, Castoria, and
other towns in southern Macedonia the Hellenic element is strong; in
the northern towns it is insignIficant, except at Melnik, which is
almost exclusively Greek. The Greek rural population extends from the
Thessalian frontier to Castoria and Verria (Beroea); it occupies the
whole Chalcidian peninsula and both banks of the lower Strymon from
Serres to the sea, and from Nigrita on the west to Pravishta on the
east; there are also numerous Greek villages in the Kavala district.
The Mahommedan Greeks, known as Valachides, occupy a
considerable tract in the upper Bistritza valley near Grevena and
Liapsista.
Also
The Slavs ...., their great immigration took place in the 6th and
7th centuries. They overran .........driving ....the latinized population
of Macedonia into the highland districts, such as Pindus, Agrapha
and Olympus.
And, thus, the Latinized real Upper Macedonian Greeks are the Greek
Vlach then!
Folks, here is the real Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
So, Schneider, you were saying?
:)
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
Dear Folks,
She's hidden the truth again....
Encyclopedia Britania 1911
Š 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
June R Harton
Continuing to lie will not assist you, Schneider.