Folkmusic from Macedonia

And finally here

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid

So, Bulgarian, no matter how hard you resist truth it shall always
be in your future as it was in your past.

from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 10:53:03 AM1/19/03

to

Alepiloglu why you are not complaining about Junebug's letter about Kuzman Shapkarev? Junebug repeat this same letter 2,000,000 times.
Ilinden the Macedonian

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 11:12:05 AM1/19/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

Alepiloglu why you are not complaining about Junebug's letter about Kuzman
Shapkarev? Junebug repeat this same letter 2,000,000 times.

Ilinden the SLAVOSKOPIAN

But you never answered but once, stupidly !!
Actually your posts, all as stupid as you, have been answered as many times as
you sent them with facts and arguments !!
The fact that in three years you sent that passage from Loukianos only three
times shows that we answered successfully. This is exactly what June is
waiting for: A smart answer that not came yet !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 1:12:20 PM1/19/03

to

Jovanche ,Junebug does not know my parents how could he- she call me a Turkotatar
(Bulgarian) I'm Macedonian not Turk like you Jovanche.

Yannis the Macedonian wrote:

> "Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...
> Alepiloglu why you are not complaining about Junebug's letter about Kuzman
> Shapkarev? Junebug repeat this same letter 2,000,000 times.

> Ilinden But you never answered but once, stupidly !!

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 2:09:18 PM1/19/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Jovanche ,Junebug does not know my parents how could he- she call me a
Turkotatar
> (Bulgarian) I'm Macedonian not Turk like you Jovanche.

He follows you Trajka !
You don't know my parents yet you call me Turk !
As for me I need not to know your parents in order not to call you Macedonian,
because I know Macedonians.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 2:43:30 PM1/19/03

to

Jovanche a long time ago you said your parents came from Izmir Turkey in 1922, you
forgot?
Abre Jovanche your memory start to disintegrate, I feel sorry.
Regards, Ilinden the Macedonian

Torill

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 4:08:08 PM1/19/03

to

Well, Norwegians has never come from Finland. Don't know where you got that
part. So about the names: No, we don't have Finnish names.

Torill

"Yannis the Macedonian" <mak...@vip.gr> skrev i melding
news:b09bf9$fcc$2...@usenet.otenet.gr...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10.01.2003

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 3:59:33 PM1/19/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Jovanche a long time ago you said your parents came from Izmir Turkey in
1922, you
> forgot? Abre Jovanche your memory start to disintegrate, I feel sorry.

> Regards, Ilinden the SLAVOSKOPIAN

LIAR !! YOU ( or Galina ?? ) said that !
This happens often to people that likes to lie. That have to repeat many-many
times the lie they say in order to make people around to believe them. But
this repeat makes the liars to believe their own lies !!
Just feel sorry for yourself because you are ready to believe whatever
rejoices you. But dear, truth often hurts: Macedonians were always Greeks.

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 4:08:26 PM1/19/03

to

"Torill" <torill...@c2i.net> wrote:...

> Well, Norwegians has never come from Finland. Don't know where you got that
> part. So about the names: No, we don't have Finnish names.
> Torill

I know that Torill !!
SlavoSkopians, the Slav inhabitants of FYROPM you conventionally name
"Macedonians" never had Macedonian names, toponyms, .... because Macedonians
had always Greek names, toponyms ....and spread Greek Language and
Civilization to the World. So, as a Macedonian, I feel sore when you use my
tribal name to name a foreign people.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

> "Yannis the Macedonian" <mak...@vip.gr> skrev i melding

...............................................

Torill

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 5:08:51 PM1/19/03

to

I'm sorry I did. I didn't know I could start a discussion at all. Actually
I'm sorry I ever posted my question....

Torill

"Yannis the Macedonian" <mak...@vip.gr> skrev i melding

news:b0f4vv$gg9$3...@usenet.otenet.gr...

++

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 5:43:50 PM1/19/03

to torill...@c2i.net

Torill wrote:

> I'm sorry I did. I didn't know I could start a discussion at all. Actually
> I'm sorry I ever posted my question....
>
> Torill

Torill,

Don't let the netnazis get you down. Plenty of discussion of macedonian music
on the eefc list.

But a good start is where you can hear, read and experience the music online,
or buy it:

http://www.mmc.edu.mk/

http://macedoniadirect.com/music/ethno_mus1.htm

http://macedoniadirect.com/music/videos.htm

http://www.cdshop.com.mk/

I like all these bands: http://www.unet.com.mk/underground/

http://www.makedonija.info/music.html

http://www2.spiderweb.com.au/~csheehan/

http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/InfoMak/culture/music.html

Click on everything here:

http://www.soros.org.mk/konkurs/076/angver/folk_denes.html

For example, who couldn't fall in love with a song like this?

http://www.soros.org.mk/konkurs/076/angver/bog_bie_prv.html

Removed from headers (why feed the netnazi energy bunnies): alt.news.fyrom,
alt.culture.fyrom, alt.culture.macedonia, alt.culture.macedonia-is-greek,
alt.languages.macedonian

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 10:07:27 PM1/19/03

to

Subject: Uncivilized Greek Government
To the uncivilized Greek Government:
Since the Greek occupation of Aegean Macedonia, by changing my first and

last name from Macedonian into Greek does not make me Greek. You
occupied my land. Who gave you the right to change the toponyms and our
first and last names, suppressing the Macedonian language, erasing the
Macedonian script in the churches and rewriting over with Greek.
That tells me that you are still an uncivilized country. You have to
admit that in Greece there are 7 other nationalities living there. They
all need human rights. Where is your democracy, on paper only?
Ilinden

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 10:44:01 PM1/19/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E2AC9DE...@sympatico.ca...

>Alepiloglu why you are not complaining about Junebug's letter about Kuzman
>Shapkarev? Junebug repeat this same letter 2,000,000 times.
>Ilinden the Macedonian

Why, Bulgarian, do you think you can post falsehoods 20,000,000 times
and yet you wish to prevent truth from exposing your spammed lies?

Once only was it necessary for you to see the truth posted and
that alone should have driven you with your lies into the far reaches
of Siberia for trying to deceive people.

The answer, Bulgarian, is that you are do not even face up to the
responsibility of shame so continue to try to deceive people!

Well, Bulgarian, truth was in your past and it shall ever be in your future.

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 10:44:02 PM1/19/03

to

Gail Schneider
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E2B2A26...@erols.com...

> Torill wrote:
> > I'm sorry I did. I didn't know I could start a discussion at all.
Actually
> > I'm sorry I ever posted my question....
> > Torill
> Torill,
>
> Don't let the netnazis get you down. Plenty of discussion of macedonian
music
> on the eefc list.

Torill, do not be deceived by Gail Schneider. She constantly spams the
lie that the Fyrom Slavs are not Bulgarians but are related to the ancient
Macedonians. This, in spite of the fact that she has learnt that the Fyrom
area was anciently inhabited by Dardanians, Illyrians, and Paeonians
NOT the ancient Macedonian Greeks who inhabited the real Macedonian
region in northern Greece.

Just see below and you will see that it is unquestionable that the Fyrom
Slavs are Bulgarians and that real Macedonians were Greeks and ask yourself
why anybody would still persist in trying to steal Greek history and
heritage after
the truth was made known to them.

And here:

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

And here:

For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

And here:

And finally here

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid

from: Spirit of Truth

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 11:01:06 PM1/19/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E2B67EF...@sympatico.ca...

> Subject: Uncivilized Greek Government
> To the uncivilized Greek Government:
> Since the Greek occupation of Aegean Macedonia,

Why are are repeating that lie when it has been exposed as a lie?

> by changing my first and
> last name from Macedonian

Why are using that word for the correct word which is 'Bulgarian'
when your falsehood regarding that point has already been exposed.

Why are you trying to deceive people, Bulgarian?

corpz

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 7:51:35 AM1/20/03

to

> rejoices you. But dear, truth often hurts: Macedonians were always Greeks.

While the Macedonians ruled the world, greeks were busy fucking young greek
boys up in the ass.

As you said, truth hurts.

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 8:15:57 AM1/20/03

to

"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote...
..................................

> Don't let the netnazis get you down. Plenty of discussion of macedonian
music
> on the eefc list.

.....................................

> Removed from headers (why feed the netnazi energy bunnies):
alt.news.fyrom,
> alt.culture.fyrom, alt.culture.macedonia, alt.culture.macedonia-is-greek,
> alt.languages.macedonian

Dear pathetic shameless SlavoSkopian propagandist
Let the truth be known all over the world.
And we Macedonians were always Greek. Stop violating our essential human right
to have an exclusive tribal name. Stop using our name to name a foreign
people. Respect yourself and stop calling netnazi people that just are right.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 8:34:45 AM1/20/03

to

If you want an answer just respect yourself first ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 10:08:04 AM1/20/03

to

Jovanche are from the FTCOG or from Macedonia? The Ftcog is one country and
Macedonia is another country you are flummoxed again Jovanche, a wine product is
made in the FTCOG ON THE WINE BOTTLE SAY PRODUCT OF GREECE DOES NOT SAY PRODUCT OF
MACEDONIA, wake up and smell the Turkish coffee.
Ilinden the Macedonian

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 1:47:02 PM1/20/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Jovanche are from the FTCOG or from Macedonia? The Ftcog is one country and
> Macedonia is another country you are flummoxed again Jovanche, a wine
product is
> made in the FTCOG ON THE WINE BOTTLE SAY PRODUCT OF GREECE DOES NOT SAY
PRODUCT OF
> MACEDONIA, wake up and smell the Turkish coffee.

> Ilinden the SlavoSkopian

Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

> Yannis the Macedonian wrote:

Zhivko Apostolovski

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 8:14:21 PM1/20/03

to

This greek stupidity about Alexander the Macedonian (therefore the
Macedonians), being greek and "spreading greek civilisation", it seems knows
of no bounds, despite numerous ANCIENT historians clearly separating the
Greeks and the Macedonians as two different races, as for example Arrian,
who in his book "The campaigns of Alexander" writes (I will attempt to quote
an exerpt (on the battle of Issis):

" ....Darius's Greeks were fighting to press the Macedonians back towards
the river and to retain their positions on the left flank, which had started
to retreat, while the Macedonians, seeing the success of Alexander, in front
of their eyes, were attemtping to attain his success.... The collision was
more bitter thanks to the OLD RACIAL RIVALRY between the Macedonians and the
Greeks.

Please note this is but one example. There are many, many other examples
similar (in context) to the above. For me personally, Polibius, describing
the events (the conference between Flamininus and the GREEKS on one side and
PhilipV (the Macedonians) on the other side, and the subsequent decree from
the Roman Senate to liberate Greece from Macedonia) after one of the wars
between the Macedonians and the Romans gives the most profound evidence
which utterly contradicts the absurd greek claims on Macedonia(ns).

Despite the countless presentations of this evidence, the idiotic peddlers
of the state greek propaganda will not cease. What is sad about this is the
numeracy of these greek creations (peddlers - "parrots") such as Yannis boy,
the neo "Macedonian" Greek, but most likely a grkoman.

"Yannis the Macedonian" <mak...@vip.gr> wrote in message
news:b0bm2t$efp$3...@usenet.otenet.gr...

Panathinaikos

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 7:49:17 PM1/20/03

to

Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "Philip of Macedon," Duckworth, London,
1994, pp.235.

pp. 1-3:

"Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine,
descent. His famous ancestor Temenus was still honoured at the
'Temenion' as the founder of Argos on the Peloponnese, and Temenus
himself was descended from Heracles, son of Zeus. As he grew up, Philip
participated at Pella in the worship of Heracles Patro'u's, the
'forefather' of the royal family in Macedonia, which was called 'the
Temenidae' by Herodotus and Thucydides. He was related to other
Heraclids, such as the two kings of Sparta and the Aleuad family of
Larissa in Thessaly. His Heraclid descent was a matter of common
knowledge; for the claim of his great-great-grandfather, Alexander I,
had been upheld by the highest authority, the Judges of the Olympic
Games.[1]
Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as Demosthenes was a
Greek and an Athenian. Only members of his family had ruled over the
Macedonians for some three centuries before his birth in 382, and it was
by then inconceivable that the diadem would pass to any other family.
The Macedonians over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying member of
the family of Greek-speaking peoples. This had been affirmed by Hesiod
for the period before the Temenidae came to Macedonia. In the family
tree of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod constructed Deucalion had a son
Hellen, who begot three sons, representing three distinct dialectal
groups (Doric, Ionic and Aelic), and a daughter Thyia, who 'conceiving
bore to thunder-loving Zeus two sons, Magnes and Macedon fighting from a
chariot, and they dwelt around Pieria and Olympus.' Thus Magnes and
Macedon were eponyms of two distinct dialectal groups of Greek-speaking
peoples. They were sons of the supreme Greek deity, Zeus, the first
cousins of the sons of Hellen. Their habitat associated them directly
with Zeus; for it was 'on the highest peak of many-ridged Olympus' that
Zeus assembled the gods, and the earliest shrine of the Macedonians
below the towering mountain was named after Zeus 'Dion.' The descendants
of the two sons of Zeus and Thyia had separate destinies; for the
Magnetes moved south into Thessaly, and the Macedones stayed on in the
high country of Pieria and the Olympus massif, maintaining their own
dialect of the Greek language. That dialect still persisted when Philip
was born; but regular contact with other Greek speakers had already led
to the adoption of standard Greek for the transaction of normal business
and for official matters.[2]
The inclusion of the Macedonian kingdom in the comity of Greek states
was made manifest in 371, when Sparta convened a conference which
resulted in a general peace, Thebes alone opting out. At the conference
Athens wanted confirmation that the Chersonese (the Galilipoli
peninsula) and Amphipolis were Athenian possessions. 'All the Greeks'
approved the former. As regards the latter, Aeschines spoke in 343 as
follows. 'When a coalition came together of the Spartans and other
Greeks, one of them was Amyntas, father of Philip. He sent a delegate as
he was master of his own vote. He voted to join with the other Greeks in
capturing for Athens Amphipolis, the Athenian possession.' There is no
ambiguity in these statements. 'Amyntas, father of Philip' stood for
Macedonia (he was not present at the conference). When it suited the
city-states, Macedonia was 'one of the city-states.' So too a decade
later, when the envoys of the shrine at Epidaurus were visiting Greek
states, their hosts included the representatives of 'Macedonia' and
'Calindoea.' Both were part of the Greek world. So was Edessa when Argos
wanted financial contributions.[3]
Greek speech alone did not qualify Macedonia for acceptance as a Greek
state. Political distinctions were much more important. The hallmark of
Greekness for many centuries had been the republican, self-governing
city-state, in which the citizens were free to engage in political
experiments. With the exception of Sparta, where dual kingship survived
and conservatism reigned, these experiments led in the years of Philip's
youth to extreme forms of democracy in most city-states and to extreme
forms of minority government in others, whether called 'oligarchy' or
'tyranny.' In comparison the Macedonian kingdom was regarded as
un-Greek; for it was unwieldy in size, its political form had been
static for centuries, and its peoples were not self-governing but
'slaves' to royal authority. Moreover it lacked the substructure of the
fourth-century city-state, a basis of actual slaves or serfs; for the
Macedonians worked the land with their own hands. Such primitive
features earned the jibe from their sophisticated neighbours that the
Macedonians were 'barbarians.' 'Shall we be slaves to Archelaus, we
Greeks to a barbarian?" That was the cry of an orator for the democratic
party in Larissa, where the Macedonian king, Archelaus, had intervened
c. 400. It was only too easy for Demosthenes to regard Philip as 'a
barbarian' and to represenr his rule to the Athenian democrats as an
oppressive, authoritarian regime. At the same period Isocrates of
Athens, addressing the world of Greek city-states, invited Philip 'to
regard all Greece as his fatherland, as his ancestor had done,' and to
lead the Greeks in a war against the Persians."[4]

[1] This chapter is based mainly on Hammond in HM 2 ('A History of
Macedonia II,' Oxford, 1979) 167-200. Shorter accounts in Ellis ('Philip
II and Macedonian Imperialism,' London, 1976) 42-4, Cawkwell ('Philip of
Macedon,' London 1978)23-8 and Borza ('In the Shadow of Olympus: the
Emergence of Macedon,' Pronceton, 1990) 181-97. For this paragraph see
Paus.2.38.1 (Temenion); Hdt.8.138.2, Thuc2.99.3, Hdt.5.22.

[2] Hesiod frs.7 & 9 (Merkelbach): Homer, Iliad 8.2f. For the Greek
origin and language of the Macedonians see Hammond in HM 2.39-54. It
should be noted that he Magnetes spoke an Aeolic dialect in early
classical times, and that Hellanicus who visited the Macedonian court
connected Macedon with Aeolus, the eponym of the Aeolic-speaking
peoples. For an opposing view see E. Badian in 'Macedonia and Greece in
Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times' (Washington, 1982) 33-51,
and Borza (see above) 90-7, who regards all early literary evidence as
'ancestor-creation' (69f.), a popular pursuit in modern America but
difficult to achieve in a period in which family genealogy was zealously
transmitted.

[3] D.9.16; Aeschin.2.32; IG IV 94-5; IG IV[2] 617, 15.

[4] Thrasybulus of Calchedon, 'For the Larissaeans'; D.2.15-21;
Isoc.5.127.

Panathinaikos

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 7:52:18 PM1/20/03

to

"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their
origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now,
political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aischines once even
found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented
by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a
meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'Entirely Greek'.
Demosthenes' allegations were lent on appearance of credibility by the fact,
apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being
determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different
from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common
to western Greeks of Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the
Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only
as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the issue
raised at all."

Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press, LA,
1990

Panathinaikos

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 7:54:41 PM1/20/03

to

"Certainly the Thracians and Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the
northwest, the peoples of Molossis {in Epeirus} Orestis {Macedonia} and
Lynkestis {Macedonia} spoke West Greek. It is also now accepted that the
Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other
groups, they were essentially Greeks."

Robert Morkot. "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece, 1996

Panathinaikos

unread,

Jan 20, 2003, 7:57:18 PM1/20/03

to

"Macedon was a region which had lagged behind the rest of the Greek world
socially, economically and culturally, failing to develop the polis or
city-state institutions characteristic of the most advanced regions of
Greece, but remaining instead a tribal society ruled by kings and dominated
by a land-owning aristocracy. Indeed, there is some question whether Macedon
should at this time be counted as part of the Greek world at all, for it has
been doubted wether the Macedonians were a Greek-speaking people, on the
basis of a few passages in ancient sources that appear to speak of a
"Macedonian" language. These passages can equally be well understood to
refer to a Macedonian "dialect", however, and thought it cannot at present
be formally proved that the Macedonians were Hellenic in race and language,
I think it highly that they were, for three reasons: the overwhelming
majority of personal names known to have been used by Macedonians were good
Greek names; the names of the months in the Macedonian calendar were
basically Greek in form; and the religion of the Macedonians was largely the
same as that of the Greeks, with Zeus, Herakles, and Dionysos being
particularly prominent."

Richard. A Billows, "Antigonos the One-Eyed", University of California
Press, 1990

Agamemnon

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 2:08:12 AM1/21/03

to

[Pausanius. 9.27.3] Pierus, a Macedonian [son of Magnes son of Macedon],
after whom the mountain in Macedonia was named, came to Thespiae and
established nine Muses, changing their names to the present ones. Pierus was
of this opinion either because it seemed to him wiser, or because an oracle
so ordered, or having so learned from one of the Thracians. For the
Thracians had the reputation of old of being more clever than the
Macedonians, and in particular of being not so careless in religious
matters. [4] There are some who say that Pierus himself had nine daughters,
that their names were the same as those of the goddesses, and that those
whom the Greeks called the children of the Muses were sons of the daughters
of Pierus; [Calliope, then Clio, Melpomene, Euterpe, Erato, Terpsichore,
Urania, Thalia, and Polymnia.]

Mimnermus, who composed elegiac verses about the battle between the
Smyrnaeans and the Lydians under Gyges, says in the preface that the elder
Muses are daughters of Uranus, and that there are other and younger Muses,
children of Zeus. [5] On Helicon, on the left as you go to the grove of the
Muses, is the spring Aganippe; they say that Aganippe was a daughter of the
Termessus, which flows round Helicon. As you go along the straight road to
the grove is a portrait of Eupheme carved in relief on a stone. She was,
they say, the nurse of the Muses. [6] So her portrait is here, and after it
is Linus on a small rock worked into the shape of a cave. …

[Apollodorus. 1.3.3] [3] Clio fell in love with Pierus, son of Magnes, in
consequence of the wrath of Aphrodite, whom she had twitted with her love of
Adonis; and having met him she bore him a son Hyacinth, for whom Thamyris,
the son of Philammon and a nymph Argiope, conceived a passion, he being the
first to become enamored of males. But afterwards Apollo loved Hyacinth and
killed him involuntarily by the cast of a quoit. And Thamyris, who excelled
in beauty and in minstrelsy, engaged in a musical contest with the Muses,
the agreement being that, if he won, he should enjoy them all, but that if
he should be vanquished he should be bereft of what they would. So the Muses
got the better of him and bereft him both of his eyes and of his minstrelsy.

[Pausanius. 9.27.6] To Linus every year they sacrifice as to a hero before
they sacrifice to the Muses. It is said that this Linus was a son of Urania
and Amphimarus, a son of Poseidon, that he won a reputation for music
greater than that of any contemporary or predecessor, and that Apollo killed
him for being his rival in singing. [7] On the death of Linus, mourning for
him spread, it seems, to all the foreign world, so that even among the
Egyptians there came to be a Linus song, in the Egyptian language called
Maneros.

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
news:b0i4vv$4ud$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

ERIC

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 2:13:49 AM1/21/03

to

Zhivko
Forget all this idiocy and non stop BS that you and other slavs of or from
the FYROM ceaselessly spew ......remember the phrase
SHOW ME THE MONEY
Come on sport, give us examples of this miraculously hidden and never before
seen, witnessed or heard secret Macedonian language that existed from the
4th Century BCE. Give us and the world at large f'ing proof, once and for
all time, that the Macedonians of the 6th, 5th 4th 3rd 2nd centuries spoke ,
wrote, read or worshipped anything besides the Greek language and pantheon.
Astound the world with your discoveries.....here was a militarily dominant
and fully literate society that conquered and ruled an extensive geographic
area encompassing other literate societies. Hundreds, if not thousands of
settlements were established or expanded over tens and tens of thousands of
square kilometres .......where was anything but Greek spoken and written by
the leaders or the common literate peoples? Post this pathetic Skopian wet
dream of a non existent language once and for all......
SHOW ME THE MONEY or shut up.

Always a pleasure
Eric

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
news:b0i4vv$4ud$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

Agamemnon

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 2:18:59 AM1/21/03

to

"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:b0irmn$hug$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> [Pausanius. 9.27.3] Pierus, a Macedonian [son of Magnes son of Macedon],

I mean brother of Macedon

Seanie O'Kilfyle

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 7:34:32 AM1/21/03

to

"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message

news:b0isau$7dm$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:b0irmn$hug$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > [Pausanius. 9.27.3] Pierus, a Macedonian [son of Magnes son of Macedon],
>
> I mean brother of Macedon
>

Trim your one line replies TROLL

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 8:58:26 AM1/21/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote...

> This greek stupidity about Alexander the Macedonian (therefore the
> Macedonians), being greek and "spreading greek civilisation", it seems knows
> of no bounds, despite numerous ANCIENT historians clearly separating the
> Greeks and the Macedonians as two different races, as for example Arrian,
> who in his book "The campaigns of Alexander" writes (I will attempt to quote
> an exerpt (on the battle of Issis):
>
> " ....Darius's Greeks were fighting to press the Macedonians back towards
> the river and to retain their positions on the left flank, which had started
> to retreat, while the Macedonians, seeing the success of Alexander, in front
> of their eyes, were attemtping to attain his success.... The collision was
> more bitter thanks to the OLD RACIAL RIVALRY between the Macedonians and
> the Greeks.

That old rivalry was also between Athenians and Spartans, as well as between
Athenians and all other Greeks while the Peloponnesian war, Thebans and
Spartans, Melians and Athenians, Lesbians and Athenians, Corinthians and
Athenians, Kerkyrans and Corinthians etc, etc.
All Greek pupils that learn in schools about Greek cities' rivalry in ancient
times set the same question ! How come they were all Greeks yet they fought
each other to death ? But it is not so hard to understand. Believe me.
Could you imagine what Arrian would write if he described the Peloponnesian
war between Athens and all other Greeks a hundred years earlier than
Alexander's campaign ??
For instance, Leuktra battle between Spartans and Thebans ( they were allies
50 years earlier against Athens ) was much more murderous than Issos' one.

> Please note this is but one example. There are many, many other examples
> similar (in context) to the above. For me personally, Polibius, describing
> the events (the conference between Flamininus and the GREEKS on one side and
> PhilipV (the Macedonians) on the other side, and the subsequent decree from
> the Roman Senate to liberate Greece from Macedonia) after one of the wars
> between the Macedonians and the Romans gives the most profound evidence
> which utterly contradicts the absurd greek claims on Macedonia(ns).

Do not learn history presented to you by scholars. Read the very books of
ancient writers.

> Despite the countless presentations of this evidence, the idiotic peddlers
> of the state greek propaganda will not cease. What is sad about this is the
> numeracy of these greek creations (peddlers - "parrots") such as Yannis boy,
> the neo "Macedonian" Greek, but most likely a grkoman.

What makes Macedonians Greeks is that they had always Greek names, toponyms

ways, heroes, gods, dialect and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the

World. Many other Greeks wanted to do what Macedonians did and were jealous
about and they attempted to block them.
But have no doubt that it was the Greek Language and Civilization that
Macedonians spread to the World.
( btw I noticed the change to a more human way of discussion from your part
! )
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Anastassios Retzios

unread,

Jan 21, 2003, 2:24:58 PM1/21/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message news:<b0i4vv$4ud$1...@merki.connect.com.au>...

> This greek stupidity about Alexander the Macedonian (therefore the
> Macedonians), being greek and "spreading greek civilisation", it seems knows
> of no bounds, despite numerous ANCIENT historians clearly separating the
> Greeks and the Macedonians as two different races, as for example Arrian,
> who in his book "The campaigns of Alexander" writes (I will attempt to quote
> an exerpt (on the battle of Issis):
>
> " ....Darius's Greeks were fighting to press the Macedonians back towards
> the river and to retain their positions on the left flank, which had started
> to retreat, while the Macedonians, seeing the success of Alexander, in front
> of their eyes, were attemtping to attain his success.... The collision was
> more bitter thanks to the OLD RACIAL RIVALRY between the Macedonians and the
> Greeks.

This is a ridiculous argument that springs from your lack of knowledge
of ancient Greek and the imperfections of a translation. The ancient
Greeks used the term "phyli" -which is translated as "race" liberally-
even between tiny Greek cities. So the term would and has not only be
used for the struggle between Athens and Sparta but also in warfare
between minor Greek powers.

But your problem is manifold. You cannot take an isolated passage
from Arrian to highlight your "point". You need to take the book as a
whole. I can point you to many passages of the book that support
exactly the opposite of what you are talking about. But these
passages have been posted here time and time again, right? Anyway,
read the whole book.

> Please note this is but one example. There are many, many other examples
> similar (in context) to the above. For me personally, Polibius, describing
> the events (the conference between Flamininus and the GREEKS on one side and
> PhilipV (the Macedonians) on the other side, and the subsequent decree from
> the Roman Senate to liberate Greece from Macedonia) after one of the wars
> between the Macedonians and the Romans gives the most profound evidence
> which utterly contradicts the absurd greek claims on Macedonia(ns).
>
> Despite the countless presentations of this evidence, the idiotic peddlers
> of the state greek propaganda will not cease. What is sad about this is the
> numeracy of these greek creations (peddlers - "parrots") such as Yannis boy,
> the neo "Macedonian" Greek, but most likely a grkoman.

You are the idiot here because you believe that we have not read
Polybius. In fact, I have read the whole of his work and one think is
clear by the work of Polybius. He mourned the defeat and passing of
Macedon and glorified the days of the zenith of its power by writing a
lengthy exposition on Philip and dishing Demosthenes for attacking
him. Your stupidity is even worse when one considers that Polybius
was exiled to Rome because of his friendship with Macedon and because
he wanted the Achaean League to act in unison with Macedonia. And
Polybius was a Megalopolitan and an official of the Achaean League.
These facts you will find in any historical textbook covering this
period of Roman expansionism in Greece.

It is typical of the garbage coming from FYROM "academics" to dispense
with the facts, to dispense with the whole work and its main thrust.
Why don't you read the whole section of Book XVIII on "Treachery".
But better, read Book VIII on Philip II and Macedon and his criticism
of Theopombos' history, Polybius says the following:

" Surely it would have been more dignified as well as more just to
have included Philip's achievements in the general history of Greece
rather than the history of Greece in that of Philip?

So much for this!! Read the damn book!!!

ADR

Dorian West

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Jan 22, 2003, 3:53:32 AM1/22/03

to

"Seanie O'Kilfyle" <Se...@Sean.com> wrote in message
news:y4bX9.1429$P54....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...

FUCK YOU BOG-HEAD! Who gives a shit what an Irish imbecile possibly thinks?
You fucking sub-human drunkards weren't culled enough by the English.

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 23, 2003, 3:52:34 AM1/23/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
news:b0i4vv$4ud$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

> This greek stupidity about Alexander the Macedonian (therefore the
> Macedonians), being greek and "spreading greek civilisation", it seems
knows
> of no bounds, despite numerous ANCIENT historians clearly separating the
> Greeks and the Macedonians as two different races, as for example Arrian,
> who in his book "The campaigns of Alexander" writes (I will attempt to
quote

> an exerpt (on the battle of Issis):...>snip rest of nonsense.

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."

And don't forget this:

"From: http://sersun1.essex.ac.uk/~jprodr/sancpol1.html
For fair use only

Polybios 38.1-3.8

The 38th book contains the completion of the disaster of the
Hellenes. For though both the whole of Hellas and her several parts
had often met with mischance, yet to none of her former defeats can
we more fittingly apply, the name of disaster with all it signifies than to
the events of my own time. ...In the time I am speaking of a common
misfortune befell the Peloponnesians, the Boiotians, the Fokians, the
[Eub]oians, the Lokrians, some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf, and finally
the Macedonians."

As you see above, folks, the Hellenes who had the 'common disaster' in
Polybios' 'own time' are listed as:

"the Peloponnesians,
the Boiotians,
the Fokians,
the [Eub]oians,
the Lokrians,
some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf,
and finally the Macedonians"

from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek

Panayiotis

unread,

Jan 23, 2003, 6:17:12 PM1/23/03

to

"Dorian West" <west...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e2e5d4b$0$7815$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...

> Who gives a shit what an Irish imbecile possibly thinks?

Dear Dorian West,
We Greeks have many things in common with the Irish. They are nice people
and produced men of letters and arts (e.g. George Bernard Shaw). Greek
Cypriots and Irish tasted the "civilized" treatment of the British. Met an
Irishman whose grandfather's last name was changed from O'Toole to Toal (by
the British) and the people of his village were relocated to the plains from
its original place in the mountains.
But, who can verify who is hiding behind this pseudomym (Seanie O'Kilfyle)?
Panayiotis

Zhivko Apostolovski

unread,

Jan 26, 2003, 6:23:25 PM1/26/03

to

Listen well, propagandist for unlike you, I don't have time for more long,
stupid replies of yours.

Firstly, I have the books of Arrian and Polibius and have read them, thus I
know everyting there is to know about both of them. There is no need for
your stupid "patronage".

You have clearly missed the context of my message. It is not what Polibius
says/feels personally (that all falls in the sphere of daily
politics/alliances), but his descriptions, such as the conference between
Flamininus (and the Greeks) and Philip V (the Macedonians), the subsequent
decree and everything associated with these events. It is here where it is
abundantly clear that the Macedonians and the Romans, as well, considered
the Greeks as separate entities/nations.

Regarding what Arrian has written, whichever way you wish to twist it, greek
propagandist, it still remains "racial rivalry between the Greeks and the
Macedonians". There is nothing any greek nationalist propagandist can do to
discredit it now, more than two milleniums after it has been recorded, for
that is exactly what it was then.

Secondly
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03012...@posting.google.com...

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 26, 2003, 6:07:04 PM1/26/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote:
.........................................

> Regarding what Arrian has written, whichever way you wish to twist it, greek
> propagandist, it still remains "racial rivalry between the Greeks and the
> Macedonians". There is nothing any greek nationalist propagandist can do to
> discredit it now, more than two milleniums after it has been recorded, for
> that is exactly what it was then.

Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and

spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.

Since you have read Polyvios and Arrianos can you tell us what they say about
Macedonian language. Did you see there any SlavoSkopian name ? Did you see
there any Macedonian non-Greek name ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

VULGAROKTONOS

unread,

Jan 26, 2003, 7:21:12 PM1/26/03

to

You Turkobulgar Even in the bible says that Macedonia is GREECE, CASE IS
CLOSED

Macedonia, Four Thousand Years of GREEK Civilization Culture and History

Panayiotis

unread,

Jan 26, 2003, 7:28:48 PM1/26/03

to

To Whom It May Concern (or whoever is interested to learn more about
Macedonia).

In fact I have been reading a lot on this newsgroup about Macedonians not
being Greeks, about Greek language not being the same as Hellenic language.
All from people that consider themselves "experts". I have not seen a
serious article on the origin of the people living in FYROM. For Zhivko,
Ilinden, ++, Galina etal:
Can you stop spending your energy trying to prove what we are not, and give
us some serious information on who you are?
Panayiotis

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Hammond's Interview

Mr. Dennis Grammenos (dgra...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) was kind enough to provide
the following interview of the widely known historian and clacissist.

Nicholas Hammond, the well-known historian, said the following in an
interview with the magazine "Macedonian Echo" in February, 1993:

------------------------------------------------------------

(Q): Who were the Macedonians ?

(A): The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was
the grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer
from Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since
Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor
of Thessalians, who spoke Greek.

(Q): Isn't it true that Demosthenes called them "barbarians" ?

(A): The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy, should
not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians,
but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems:
the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy
(Kingdom of Macedonia).

Personally, I believe that it is the common language, which gives one the
opportunity to share a common civilization. Thus the language is the main
factor that forms a national identity.

(Q): What was the geographic location of the Macedonian Kingdom ?

(A): It should be emphasized that Macedonia occupied only the area of
Pieria, as is characteristically mentioned by Hesiod and Thucydides. It had
to wait until Philip II ascended to the throne and expanded his kingdom by
occupying, among others, the Thracians and the PAEONIANS. The Paeonians were
allowed to keep their customs, which was a sign of liberal policy of Philip
after each conquest. From Homer we learn that the Paeonians had their own
language and that they fought on the side of the Trojans. THEY LIVED IN THE
AREA AROUND SKOPJE, and this is the reason I suggested to Patrick Leigh
Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of "PAEONIA" AS
THE MOST SUITABLE FOR SKOPJE.

(Q): Given your experience as a liaison officer in German occupied
Macedonia, do you believe that there may be a Macedonian nation ?

(A): NO. Macedonia was under Ottoman occupation until the beginning of the
20th century. With the decline of the Ottoman empire, the Great Powers began
to seek spheres of influence in the Balkans. The result was the emergence,
during the latter part of the 19th century, of the Macedonian revolutionary
movements.The Serbian IMRO, the Bulgarian VMRO and the Greek "Ethniki
Etairia" were formed with the support of certain Great Powers with the goal
of organizing revolutionary units in the area. After the Balkan wars, the
Macedonia (the geographical region) was divided between Serbia, Greece and
Bulgaria. The movement for the creation of a Slav-controlled Greated
Macedonia continued until 1934, when the Yugoslav government declared IMRO
illegal, as a good will gesture to Greece. Therefore, given the struggle of
the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of
Macedonia AND THE ABSENCE OF ANY LOCAL NATIONAL MOVEMENT, we can talk of
Maedonia only as a GEOGRAPHICAL ENTITY AND NOT as A NATION.

(Q): Tell us of your experience in Northern Greece during the German
occupation.

(A): I fell with the parachute into Greece in 1943. Our goal was to
cooperate as liaison officers with the Greek resistance against the Germans.
Tito's plan was to found a Greater Macedonia, that would include Greek
Macedonia and South Yugoslavia; in practice it would be under Russian
control. In January 1944, Tito formed a government and declared a federal
Yugoslavia that would be composed of six different republics, the
southernmost of which would be called Macedonia. It is here that the name
Macedonia appears at the forefront of a plan of a Greater Macedonia against
Greece. The same year,Tito's guerillas invaded Greece three or four times
and attempted to enlist men from slavophone villages in the area of Florina.
Based on my knowledge, they were unsuccessful.

(Q): Could you please explain, who are these slavophones you refer to ?

(A): They are people who have been living in the area for centuries, perhaps
from the time of the Slavic invasions of the 7th century. Nevertheless, they
have been integrated with the population and consider themselves Greek.

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 27, 2003, 4:12:07 AM1/27/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b11one$55g$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

> Listen well, propagandist for unlike you, I don't have time for more long,
> stupid replies of yours.>
> Firstly, I have the books of Arrian and Polibius and have read them, thus
I
> know everyting there is to know about both of them. There is no need for
> your stupid "patronage".

Ah, but you have never confronted truth, have you, Bulgarian?!

> You have clearly missed the context of my message. It is not what
Polibius
> says/feels personally (that all falls in the sphere of daily
> politics/alliances), but his descriptions, such as the conference between
> Flamininus (and the Greeks) and Philip V (the Macedonians), the subsequent
> decree and everything associated with these events. It is here where it is
> abundantly clear that the Macedonians and the Romans, as well, considered
> the Greeks as separate entities/nations.
>
> Regarding what Arrian has written, whichever way you wish to twist it,
greek
> propagandist, it still remains "racial rivalry between the Greeks and the
> Macedonians". There is nothing any greek nationalist propagandist can do
to
> discredit it now, more than two milleniums after it has been recorded, for
> that is exactly what it was then.

*All* your above nonsense is shown as nonsense right here:

----- Original Message -----
From: "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: On the alleged "greekness" of the Ancient Macedonians

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b0skj3$ev1$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
> The Achaean clearly spells it out for you, grkoman parrot, that
Macedonians
> are not Greeks. Arrian is explicit, as well. You can deceive yourself and
> the likes of you (greek "musrooms"), but not others, parrot.

LOL Arrian?

SINCE THERE IS _NO_ "OLD RACIAL RIVALRY" BETWEEN
THE "GREEKS" AND THE "MACEDONIANS" ANYWHERE
IN HISTORY DON"T YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE CONFIRMING
TO EVERYONE THAT YOU INDEED KNOW NOTHING OF
MACEDONIAN HISTORY!
THE ONLY "RACIAL RIVALRY" IN GREEK HISTORY THAT EXISTED
WAS OF DORIAN (SPARTANS) VERSUS IONIAN (ATHENIANS).
THUS, YOU UNEDUCATED TWIT, THE WRITER ARRIAN WAS
THERE IDENTIFYING THE "GREEKS" IN THIS PARAGRAPH AS
IONIANS (ATHENIANS) AND THE MACEDONIANS AS MAKEDNON/DORIANS.

FOLKS, FOR VALIDATION OF THIS VIEW LOOK AT
POLYBIOS' STATEMENT REGARDING THE MACEDONIAN
_RACE_, and also the text below it:

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples
of your own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony
and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a
war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with
the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans,
the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in
fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians
who are a wicked nation...

....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,...

be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the
Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens
are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with
the unjust."

AND

From:
http://search.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,43654+1,00.html
For fair use only

Ionian

any member of an important eastern division of the ancient Greek people, who
gave their name to a district on the western coast of Anatolia (now Turkey).
The Ionian dialect of Greek was closely related to Attic and was spoken in
Ionia and on many of the Aegean islands.
The Ionians are said to have migrated to western Anatolia from Attica and
other central Greek territories following the Dorian immigration (c. 1000
BC) that upset the Achaean kingdoms on the mainland. This is confirmed by
the fact that the same four "tribes" (phylai) found among the Athenians
reappear in the inhabitants of Miletus and other Ionian cities. Homer in his
epics gives the Ionians but a passing mention, but in the Homeric Hymn to
Apollo, roughly corresponding in time to the first certain written reference
to the Ionians by the Assyrian king Sennacherib (reigned 704-681 BC), they
are noted as the great and wealthy people who frequent the festival of
Apollo at Delos.
By the time of Herodotus (c. 450 BC), Greek thinkers had worked out a
detailed ethnological theory, identifying the Ionians with the aboriginal
element in Greece (Pelasgoi) and the Dorians with the immigrant northern
Hellenes proper. This hypothesis introduced an element of racialism into
Greek interstate polemics. The Ionians of Asia, because of their exposed
position, had been subjected by Persia and came to be despised as "soft" in
comparison to the military, disciplined cadres of the Peloponnesian Dorians.
From about 700 BC, expansion and accompanying colonization brought the
Ionians of Euboea to eastern Sicily and Cumae near Naples, and Samians to
Nagidus and Celenderis in Pamphylia. Among the Ionian cities, Miletus, which
was said to have founded 90 colonies, was instrumental in opening up the
Black Sea, while Phocaea was active in the Mediterranean, establishing a
colony at Massilia (Marseille). "Ionians" (Homeric: Iawones; Persian: Yauna;
Hebrew: Yewanim; Turkish and Arabic: Yunani) became and remained the
Oriental term for all Greeks.
The contribution of Ionians to Greek culture was of major importance,
including the Homeric epics and the earliest elegiac and iambic poetry. In
the 6th century, Ionic rational thought dominated intellectual life,
fostering the study of geography and nature and research into matter and the
universe. Ionians at home and overseas also laid the foundation of Greek
philosophy and historiography. In the age after Alexander the Great, Attic
Ionic, the literary language, became the basis of Koine, or "common speech,"
the language of practically all later Greek writing, including the New
Testament, down to the present day. Ionians were also substantial artists in
the areas of architecture, sculpture, and cast-bronze statuary.

> And you are the last person to talk about spam, parrot.

Do you think talking nonsense helps you? I post no spam. As all know
I simply expose the spammed falsehoods you and your ilk post as the
falsehoods that they are.

> Macedonia (part of it) is only "greek" since its partitioning/occupation
of
> 1912.

Now, since no area of the Western Balkans was a Macedonia since the
end of the 6th century AD until the Macedonian and other Greeks liberated
the real area of Macedonia from the Ottoman Turks in 1912/13, what
'Macedonia' do you think you are referring to?

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."

And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

> You can peddle your greek propaganda all you like. I am sure people
> like Borza take great note of it when they establish their conclusions
> :-)))))))))))

Bozo, don't make me laugh!

"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:

"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973

"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983

"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."

Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",

Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3

Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16
"That Greek so easily subsumed the local Macedonian dialect
would indicate that the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed
from Greek after all."

---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.

"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996

> Explain to the readers where in the material from my post does
>(according to you) Polibius (or the others) "indicate" that Macedonia
> is "greek" land and not the exact opposite, meaning Macedonia is
>explicitly shown as non greek.

You are either extremely uneducated on the real Macedonia or you
would have to be extremely dim (are you Josif?) to go ahead and
say that again when you see the following from Polybios:

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."

And this:

"From: http://sersun1.essex.ac.uk/~jprodr/sancpol1.html
For fair use only

Polybios 38.1-3.8

The 38th book contains the completion of the disaster of the
Hellenes. For though both the whole of Hellas and her several parts
had often met with mischance, yet to none of her former defeats can
we more fittingly apply, the name of disaster with all it signifies than to
the events of my own time. ...In the time I am speaking of a common
misfortune befell the Peloponnesians, the Boiotians, the Fokians, the
[Eub]oians, the Lokrians, some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf, and finally
the Macedonians."

As you see above, folks, the Hellenes who had the 'common disaster' in
Polybios' 'own time' are listed as:

"the Peloponnesians,
the Boiotians,
the Fokians,
the [Eub]oians,
the Lokrians,
some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf,
and finally the Macedonians"

And as for the creation of Macedonia by Greeks you only have to read
these:

Herodotos:

For fair use only
From:http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.1.i.html

"Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been
recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which
was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed
out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the
Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter
of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early
times the most distinguished place in Greece, the (latter) being a Pelasgic,
the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original
seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the
reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt,
but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base
of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from
that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni,
in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to
Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way,
they became known as Dorians."

Clearly, Herodotos states above that the HELLENIC tribe was the Macedonians
and (a group of them) went south and were known
there as Dorians (as you also saw from Polybios above)!

Thucydides Histories 2.99.1 - 2.99.6

[2.99.1]

Assembling in Doberus, they (the Thracians) prepared for
descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia,
where the dominions of Perdiccas lay;

[2.99.2]

for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland,
though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of
their kindred, still have their own separate governments.

[ALTERNATE TRANSLATION OF 2.99.2
"2.99.2 There is an upper Macedonia, which is inhabited by
Lyncestians, Elimiots, and other tribes;
these are allies and tributaries of the lower Macedonians,
but have kings of their own."

This is taken from Benjamin Jowett's translation found in
Francis R. B. Godolphin's "The Greek Historians:
The Complete and Unabridged Historical Works of Herodotus,
Thucydies, Xenophon & Arrian" v.1, Random House, NY,
1942, p.681.]

[2.99.3]

The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia,
was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas,
and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.
This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians,
who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places
under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon
(indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea
is still called the Pierian gulf)
of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians,
from Bottia,

[2.99.4]

and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along
the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea;
the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon,
being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians.

[2.99.5]

From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of
whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca,
and the Almopians from Almopia.

[2.99.6]

These Macedonians also conquered places belonging
to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia,
Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now
called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces,
Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king.

> Here is the text (which you so conveniently removed) again, for you to
> "discredit". Tell us where does it "indicate" your warped imaginations,
> grkoman.

Specifically Arrian himself says you deceive yourself but no one else:

Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoudest soldiers of Europe, and
they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes
of Asia."

And just look at these from another historian that your people distort:

"Alexander (died B.C.E.) By Plutarch
Written A.C.E.
Translated by John Dryden

It is agreed on by all hands, that on the father's side, Alexander descended
from Hercules by Caranus, and from Aeacus by Neoptolemus on the
mother's side. His father Philip, being in Samothrace, when he was quite
young, fell in love there with Olympias, in company with whom he was
initiated in the religious ceremonies of the country, and her father and
mother being both dead, soon after, with the consent of her brother,
Arymbas, he married her.

While he was thus deliberating what to do, it happened that a spring of
water near the city of Xanthus in Lycia, of its own accord, swelled over
its banks, and threw up a copper plate, upon the margin of which was
engraven in ancient characters, that the time would come when the
Persian empire should be destroyed by the Grecians. Encouraged by
this accident, he proceeded

Having passed through the wilderness, they came to the place where
the high priest, at the first salutation, bade Alexander welcome from his
father Ammon. And being asked by him whether any of his father's
murderers had escaped punishment, he charged him to speak with more respect,
since his was not a mortal father. Then Alexander, changing his expression,
desired to know of him if any of those who murdered Philip
were yet unpunished, and further concerning dominion, whether the
empire of the world was reserved for him? This, the god answered,
he should obtain, and that Philip's death was fully revenged, which
gave him so much satisfaction that he made splendid offerings to
Jupiter, and gave the priests very rich presents. This is what most
authors write concerning the oracles. But Alexander, in a letter to
his mother, tells her there were some secret answers, which at his
return he would communicate to her only. Others say that the priest,
desirous as a piece of courtesy to address him in Greek, "O Paidion,
" by a slip in pronunciation ended with the s instead of the n, and
said "O Paidios," which mistake Alexander was well enough pleased
with, and it went for current that the oracle had called him so.

He made the longest address that day to the Thessalians and other Greeks,
who answered him with loud shouts, desiring him to lead them on against the
barbarians, upon which he shifted his javelin into his left hand, and with
his right lifted up towards heaven, besought the gods, as Callisthenes tells
us, that if he was of a truth the son of Jupiter, they would be pleased to
assist and strengthen the Grecians.

Amongst other things he happened to observe a large statue of Xerxes thrown
carelessly down to the ground in the confusion made by the multitude of
soldiers pressing into the palace. He stood still, and accosting it as if it
had been alive, "Shall we," said he, "neglectfully pass thee by, now thou
art prostrate on the ground because thou once invadedst Greece, or shall we
erect thee again in consideration of the greatness of thy mind and thy other
virtues?" But at last, after he had paused some time, and silently
considered with himself, he went on without taking any further notice of it.
In this place he took up his winter quarters, and stayed four months to
refresh his soldiers. It is related that the first time he sat on the royal
throne of Persia under the canopy of gold, Demaratus the Corinthian,
who was much attached to him and had been one of his father's friends,
wept, in an old man's manner, and deplored the misfortune of those
Greeks whom death had deprived of the satisfaction of seeing Alexander
seated on the throne of Darius.

The most celebrated of them was Thais, an Athenian, mistress of Ptolemy, who
was afterwards King of Egypt. She, partly as a sort of well-turned
compliment to Alexander, partly out of sport, as the drinking went on, at
last was carried so far as to utter a saying, not misbecoming her native
country's character, though somewhat too lofty for her own condition. She
said it was indeed some recompense for the toils she had undergone in
following the camp all over Asia, that she was that day treated in, and
could insult over, the stately palace of the Persian monarches. But, she
added, it would please her much better if, while the king looked on, she
might in sport, with her own hands, set fire to the court of that Xerxes who
reduced the city of Athens to ashes, that it might be recorded to posterity
that the women who followed Alexander had taken a severer revenge on the
Persians for the suffering, and affronts of Greece, than all the famed
commanders had been able to do by sea or land. What she said was received
with such universal liking and murmurs of applause, and so seconded by the
encouragement and eagerness of the company, that the king himself, persuaded
to be of the party, started from his seat, and with a chaplet
of flowers on his head and a lighted torch in his hand, led them the way,
while they went after him in a riotous manner, dancing and making loud
cries about the place; which when the rest of the Macedonians perceived,
they also in great delight ran thither with torches; for they hoped the
burning and destruction of the royal palace was an argument that he looked
homeward, and had no design to reside among the barbarians. Thus
some writers give their account of this action, while others say it was
done deliberately; however, all agree that he soon repented of it, and
gave order to put out the fire.

Now, also, he more and more accommodated himself in his way of living to
that of the natives, and tried to bring them also as near as he could to the
Macedonian customs, wisely considering that whilst he was engaged in an
expedition which would carry him far from thence, it would be wiser to
depend upon the good-will which might arise from intermixture and
association as a means of maintaining tranquillity, than upon force and
compulsion. In order to this, he chose out thirty thousand boys, whom he put
under masters to teach them the Greek tongue, and to train them up to arms
in the Macedonian discipline.

For to go on in order, Demaratus of Corinth, now quite an old man, had made
a great effort, about this time, to pay Alexander a visit; and when he had
seen him, said he pitied the misfortune of those Grecians, who were so
unhappy as to die before they had beheld Alexander seated on the throne of
Darius. But he did not long enjoy the benefit of the king's kindness for
him, any otherwise than that soon after falling sick and dying, he had a
magnificent funeral, and the army raised him a monument of earth fourscore
cubits high, and of a vast circumference. His ashes were conveyed in a very
rich chariot, drawn by four horses, to the seaside.''

So, Bulgarian, there is not much one can say for the quality of your
arguments besides the following:

P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."

WolfWolf

unread,

Jan 27, 2003, 6:24:42 AM1/27/03

to

"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:HJ6Z9.4714$8f....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...

>
> "Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
> news:b11one$55g$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
> > Listen well, propagandist for unlike you, I don't have time for more long,
> > stupid replies of yours.>
> > Firstly, I have the books of Arrian and Polibius and have read them, thus
> I
> > know everyting there is to know about both of them. There is no need for
> > your stupid "patronage".
>
> Ah, but you have never confronted truth, have you, Bulgarian?!

Junebugger, shut your loo! Nobody has asked you to show your effluvia.

Zhivko Apostolovski

unread,

Jan 27, 2003, 6:59:20 PM1/27/03

to

"Yannis the Macedonian GRKOMAN" <mak...@vip.gr> wrote in message
news:b11pp6$7ue$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...

> "Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote:
> .........................................
> > Regarding what Arrian has written, whichever way you wish to twist it,
greek
> > propagandist, it still remains "racial rivalry between the Greeks and
the
> > Macedonians". There is nothing any greek nationalist propagandist can do
to
> > discredit it now, more than two milleniums after it has been recorded,
for
> > that is exactly what it was then.
>
>
>
> Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect
and
> spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.

Say lobotomised GRKOMANI parrots of your ilk.

> Since you have read Polyvios and Arrianos can you tell us what they say
about
> Macedonian language. Did you see there any SlavoSkopian name ? Did you
see
> there any Macedonian non-Greek name ??

"Slavoskopian" exists only in the damaged (lobotomised) minds, such as yours
Yane boy. Tell us where Arrian or Polibius say that Macedonians speak
"greek" language, moron?

Nevertheless, here is something (for those of you who are capable) to
ponder about from the more recent past, specifically since the occupation of
Macedonia by Greece.

From the "profsigi" Karakasidou, who fortunately (for her) it seems survived
most of the adverse effects from the megalo(maniac) greek "lobotomy" project
:-))

a) "The common popular perception, with which I too had been enculturated as
I grew up, was that Greek Macedonia was inhabited by two groups: "locals"
Macedonians (dopyi) and "refugees" (prosfigbes) from the 1922 Greco-Turkish
War who had settled among them".

b) "The public attention directed at my work has not always been welcome or
comfortable. Some Greek critics, emotionalized by a sense of patriotism,
have denounced both me and my work, accusing me of everything from
"stupidity" and "cannibalism" to being a "secret agent" of the FYROM".

c) "As a native Greek writing critically on the Macedonian issue, I have
felt at times like a woman who unwittingly violated taboos by peering behind
the veils and revealing the "sacred flutes" of Greek national ideology".

d) "The Treaty of Bucharest, signed on to August 1913, marked the end of the
Second Balkan War. Under its terms, the region of Macedonia was partitioned
between the kingdoms of Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Greece received
roughly half (51 percent) of the region, Serbia obtained just over one-third
(34 percent), and Bulgaria a little less than 15 percent".

Or from the archaeologist Andronikos( on the more distant past):

THESSALONIKE MUSEUM: Professor of Archaeology at the University of
Thessalonike, Manolis Andronicos, and his associates produced a film under
the title "The Glory of Macedonia". Andronicos: "The Macedonian produced
Alexander was not Greek at all. Macedonia was ruled by kings. It was a
kingdom, whereas, Athens had democracy, a great achievement of the Greek
civilization". Furthermore: "Greeks after all lived in city-states, where
Greeks as proper civilized people should live. Whereas, Macedonians lived
under what the Greeks considered to be primitive and highly authoritative
monarchy".

It should be an overwhelming clue to you grkomani MORONS that if Macedonians
and Greeks were of the same stock then they would have the same way of life
(political-civil) structure. But they weren't of the same stock, hence the
mentioned differences.

> Yannis
> Macedonia, Greece
>
>

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 28, 2003, 4:08:48 AM1/28/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b14f6m$lr3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

I honestly didn't realize you were really so uneducated, Bulgarian...
see below!

> > Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods,
dialect
> and
> > spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
> Say lobotomised GRKOMANI parrots of your ilk.

No that is what he saig is incontestible from all valid historians,
as I have shown.

> "Slavoskopian" exists only in the damaged (lobotomised) minds, such as
yours
> Yane boy. Tell us where Arrian or Polibius say that Macedonians speak
> "greek" language, moron?

Yes, they BOTH state incontestibly that the Macedonians had their own GREEK
dialect, as I have shown here.

> Nevertheless, here is something (for those of you who are capable) to
> ponder about from the more recent past, specifically since the occupation
of
> Macedonia by Greece.
> From the "profsigi" Karakasidou, who fortunately (for her) it seems
survived
> most of the adverse effects from the megalo(maniac) greek "lobotomy"
project
> :-))
>
> a) "The common popular perception, with which I too had been enculturated
as
> I grew up, was that Greek Macedonia was inhabited by two groups: "locals"
> Macedonians (dopyi) and "refugees" (prosfigbes) from the 1922
Greco-Turkish
> War who had settled among them".

And that is the complete and utterly incontestable truth., only she is
a very dim person like you who cannot understand similarities, differences
and identities...a mark of sanity for those who can.

> b) "The public attention directed at my work has not always been welcome
or
> comfortable. Some Greek critics, emotionalized by a sense of patriotism,
> have denounced both me and my work, accusing me of everything from
> "stupidity" and "cannibalism" to being a "secret agent" of the FYROM".

False statement by her. She being of low IQ doesn't realise that she is
completely wrong.

> c) "As a native Greek writing critically on the Macedonian issue, I have
> felt at times like a woman who unwittingly violated taboos by peering
behind
> the veils and revealing the "sacred flutes" of Greek national ideology".
> d) "The Treaty of Bucharest, signed on to August 1913, marked the end of
the
> Second Balkan War. Under its terms, the region of Macedonia was
partitioned
> between the kingdoms of Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Greece received
> roughly half (51 percent) of the region, Serbia obtained just over
one-third
> (34 percent), and Bulgaria a little less than 15 percent".

Completely and utterly incorrect. The following folks sjows just how little
that women knows and how uneducated she really is:

Here is the real area of Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif

95% of the real Macedonia is in northern Greece! Theerefore this
women has no idea of what she is writing and only a foolish publisher
would have even published her nonesense except under the heading
fantasy.

> Or from the archaeologist Andronikos( on the more distant past):
>
> THESSALONIKE MUSEUM: Professor of Archaeology at the University of
> Thessalonike, Manolis Andronicos, and his associates produced a film under
> the title "The Glory of Macedonia". Andronicos: "The Macedonian produced
> Alexander was not Greek at all. Macedonia was ruled by kings. It was a
> kingdom, whereas, Athens had democracy, a great achievement of the Greek
> civilization". Furthermore: "Greeks after all lived in city-states, where
> Greeks as proper civilized people should live. Whereas, Macedonians lived
> under what the Greeks considered to be primitive and highly authoritative
> monarchy".
> It should be an overwhelming clue to you grkomani MORONS that if
Macedonians
> and Greeks were of the same stock then they would have the same way of
life
> (political-civil) structure. But they weren't of the same stock, hence the
> mentioned differences.

To state that about ancient Greece is soooo foolish that the writer can only
know nothing of ancient Greece or any of it's Greek inhabitants including
the Macedonian Greeks.

Perhaps, Bulgarian, you better handle all of these before posting your
silly theories here again:

For fair use only:

The inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
Greek tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
the Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
spoke was among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities
with the Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion
of the Madeconians was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and
traditions were those found throughout the Greek world (Wells,
The Outline of History, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Glimpses of
World History).

"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913

"It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe
related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in the distant
north, they could not participate in the progress of civilization of the
Greek people that migrated southward...".
Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:

"A strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in
Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared
with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the
names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes
and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967

"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Greek race akin to the Dorians."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton publications, 1967.

"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:

"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973

"These plains would be the envy of any Greek visitor who crossed their
southern border by the narrow vale of Tempe and the foot of Mount Olympus.
He would pass the frontier post of Heraclion, town of Heracles, and stop at
the harbour town of Dion, named after the Greek god Zeus, ancestor of the
Macedonian kings, and site of a yearly nine-day festival of the arts in
honour of Zeus and the nine Greek Muses. There he would walk through city
gates in a wall of brick, down the paved length of a sacred way, between the
theatre, gymnasiums and a temple with Doric pillars: suitably, the nearby
villages were linked with the myth of Orpheus, the famous bard of Greek
legend. He was still in a world of Greek gods and sacrifices, of Greek plays
and Greek language, though the natives might speak Greek with a northern
accent which hardened 'ch' into 'g'. 'th' into 'd' and pronounced King
Philip as 'Bilip'. Bearing on up the coast, he would find the plain no less
abundant and the towns more defiantly Greek."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", The Dial Press Publications, 1974

"In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their
language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names,
which are without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that
they did not merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives
(though with a local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example).
The Macedonians' own traditions derived their royal house from one
Argeas, son of Macedon, son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty,
the Temenids, had its origin in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos
in Greece, the first of these kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became
a most important part of the cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled
Alexander I to compete at the Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes
were allowed to do).... The Macedonians, then, were racially Greek."
Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge, London and
New York, 1977

"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983

Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "The Macedonian State:
The Origins, Institution and History," Calrendon Press, Oxford,
1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
4. The Language of the Macedonians.
What language did these 'Macedones' speak? The name itself
is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means
'highlanders,' and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such
as 'Orestai' amd 'Oreitai,' meaning 'mountain-men.' A reputedly
earlier variant, 'Maketai,' has the same root, which means 'high,'
as in the Greek adjective 'makednos' or the noun mekos.'
The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod
recorded (p. 3 above) has a bearing on the question of Greek
speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes;
as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic
dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to
suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect.
Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins
of Hellen's three sons -- Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus -- who
were the founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely
Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recored this
relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh
century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
[27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
and there in the province, but they were of various origins
and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth
century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and
modified Hesiod's genealogy by bringing Macedon and his
descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking
family.
[28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
They disregard or fail to assess the evidence which I have cited,
[29] and they turn instead to 'Macedonian' words and names,
or/and to literary references. Philologists have studied words
which have been cited as 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and
glossaries, and they have come to no certain conclusion; for
some of the words are clearly Greek, and some are clearly not
Greek. That is not surprising; for as the territory of the
Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples
who spoke Illyrian, Paeonian, Thracian and Phrygian, and they
certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors
of lexica and glossaries. The philological studies result in a
verdict, in my opinion, of 'non liquet.' [30]
The toponyms of the Macedonian homeland are
the most significant. Nearly all of them are Greek: Pieria, Lebaea,
Heracleum, Dium, Petra, Leibethra, Aegae, Aegydium, Acesae,
Acesamenae; the rivers Helicon, Aeson, Leucus, Baphyras, Sardon,
Elpe'u's, Mitys; lake Ascuris and the region Lapathus.
The mountain names Olympus and Titarium may be pre-Greek;
Edessa, the earlier name for the place where Aegae was founded,
and its river Ascordus were Phrygian. [31]
The deities worshipped by the Macedones and the names
which they gave to the months were predominantly Greek,
and there is no doubt that these were not borrowings.
To Greek literary writers before the Hellenistic period the
Macedonians were 'barbarians.' The term referred to their way
of life and their institutions, which were those of the 'ethne' and
not of the city-state, and it did not refer to their speech. We can
see this in the case of Epirus. There Thucydides called the tribes
'barbarians.' But inscriptions found in Epirus have shown conclusively
that the Epirote tribes in Thucydides' lifetime were speaking Greek
and used names which were Greek. [32]
In the following century 'barbarian' was only one of the abusive
terms applied by Demosthenes to Philip of Macedon and his people.[33]
In passages which refer to the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander
the Great and the early successors there are mentions of
a Macedonian dialect, such as was likely to have been spoken in the
original Macedonian homeland. On one occassion Alexander
'called out to his guardsmen in Macedonian ('Makedonisti'),
as this [viz. the use of 'Macedonian'] was a signal ('symbolon') that
there was a serious riot.' Normally Alexander and his soldiers
spoke standard Greek, the 'koine,' and that was what the Persians
who were to fight alongside the Macedonians were taught. So the
order 'in Macedonian' was unique, in that all other orders were in
the 'koine.' [34] it is satisfactorily explained as an order in broad
dialect, just as in the Highland Regiment a special order for a particular
purpose could be given in broad Scots by a Scottish officer who
usually spoke the King's English.The use of this dialect among
themselves was a characteristic of the Macedonian soldiers
(rather that the officers) of the King's Army. This point is made
clear in the report -- not in itself dependable -- of the trial of
a Macedonian officer before an Assembly of Macedonians, in
which the officer (Philotas) was mocked for not speaking in dialect. [35]
In 321 when a non-Macedonian general, Eumenes, wanted
to make contact with a hostile group of Macedonian infantrymen,
he sent a Macedonian to speak to them in the Macedonian dialect,
in order to win their confidence. Subsequently, when they and the
other Macdonian soldiers were serving with Eumenes, they
expresed their affection for him by hailing him in the Macedonian dialect
('Makedonisti'). [36] He was to be one of themselves. As Curtius
observed, 'not a man among the Macedonians could bear to part
with a jot of his ancestral customs.' The use of this dialect was one
way in which the Macedonians expressed their apartness from the
world of the Greek city-states. [27] See J. M. Balcer in 'Historia' 37
(1988) 7.[28] FGrH 4 F 74 [29] Most recently E. Badian in
Barr-Sharrar 33-51 disregards the evidence as set out
in e.g. HM 2.39-54, when it goes against his view that the
Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other
than Greek. [30] The matter is dicussed at some length
in HM 2. 39-54 with reference especially to O. Hoffmann,
'Die Makedonen, ihre Sprache und ihre Volkstun' (Goettingen, 1906)
and J. Kalleris, Les Anciens Macedoniens I (Athens, 1954);
see also Kalleris II and R. A. Crossland in the CAH 3.1.843ff.
[31] For Edessa see HM 1.165 and for the Phrygians
in Macedonia 407-14. Olympus occurs as a Phrygian personal
name. [32] See Hammond, 'Epirus' 419ff. and 525ff.
[33] As Badian, loc. cit. 42, rightly observes: 'this, of course,
is simple abuse.'[34] Plu. 'Alex.'51.6[35] Curtius 6.8.34-6.
[36] PSI XII 2(1951) no. 1284, Plu. Eun.14.11.
Badian, loc. cit. 41 and 50 n.66, discusses the former
and not the latter, which hardly bears out his theory that
Eumenes 'could not directly communicate with Macedonian
soldiers,' and presumably they with him. Badian says in his
note that he is not concerned with the argument as to whether
Macedonian was a 'dialect' or 'a language.' Such an argument
seems to me to be at the heart of the matter. We have a
similar problem in regard to Epirus, where some had thought
the language of the people was Illyrian. In Plu.'Pyrrh.'1.3
reference was made to 'the local 'phone,'' which to me means
'dialect' of Greek; it is so in this instance because Plutarch
is saying that Achilles was called 'in the local 'phone' Aspestos.'
The word 'Aspestos' elsewhere was peculiar to Greek epic,
but it survived in Epirus in normal speech. It is of course
a Greek and not an Illyrian word. See Hammond, 'Epirus' 525ff.,
for the Greek being the language of central Epirus
in the fifth century B.C. "

"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3

Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16

"Also, following Alexander's death, the rapid spread of Koine
based on Attic Greek made any distinction between Greek
and the language of 'the Macedonians' an academic one which
opposing camps continue to fight over. That Greek so easily

subsumed the local Macedonian dialect would indicate that
the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed from Greek
after all."

A.B. Boworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998,
Canto Edition
"Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon, concentrating
power in his own hands and office to his Companions. In nationality the
Companions remained overwhemingly Hellenic."

---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.

"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their

Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press,
LA, 1990

"The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most
easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia
but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their
monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia,
suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in
principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle
the Illyrian problem at its roots."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.

"A new force began to make itself felt on the northern fringe of Hellas,
the kingdom of Macedon. Some people -Macedonians for the most
part- claimed it to be a Greek state and part of the Greek world. The
Macedonians spoke Greek and attended Hellenic festivals; their kings claimed
to be descented from Greek families- from Achilles, the great Achaean hero
of the Iliad, no less."
J.M. Roberts, "A Short History of the World", Oxford University Press,
New York, 1993

"Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine,

descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as
Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian...The Macedonians
over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member
of the Greek-speaking peoples."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth & Co. Ltd.,
London, 1994

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the
same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At
one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were
speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was
Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994

MACEDON
"Outlying Greek kingdom north of Thessaly, inland from the Thermaic Gulf,
on the northwest Aegean coast...Its name came from an ancient Greek
word meaning highlanders...Macedon was inhabited by various peoples
of Dorian-Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian descent, who spoke a Greek dialect
and worshipped Greek gods...Unification and modernization came gradually,
at the hands of kings of Dorian descent."
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World.", Oxford, 1995

"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996

Try as you may, Bulgarian, you will NEVER escape truth.

from: Spirit of Truth

June R Harton

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Jan 28, 2003, 4:16:23 AM1/28/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b14f6m$lr3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

I honestly didn't realize you were really so uneducated, Bulgarian...
see below!

> > Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods,
dialect
> and
> > spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
> Say lobotomised GRKOMANI parrots of your ilk.

No, that what he said is incontestable from all valid historians,
as I have shown.

> "Slavoskopian" exists only in the damaged (lobotomised) minds, such as
yours
> Yane boy. Tell us where Arrian or Polibius say that Macedonians speak
> "greek" language, moron?

Yes, they BOTH state incontestably that the Macedonians had their own GREEK

dialect, as I have shown here.

> Nevertheless, here is something (for those of you who are capable) to
> ponder about from the more recent past, specifically since the occupation
of
> Macedonia by Greece.
> From the "profsigi" Karakasidou, who fortunately (for her) it seems
survived
> most of the adverse effects from the megalo(maniac) greek "lobotomy"
project
> :-))
>
> a) "The common popular perception, with which I too had been enculturated
as
> I grew up, was that Greek Macedonia was inhabited by two groups: "locals"
> Macedonians (dopyi) and "refugees" (prosfigbes) from the 1922
Greco-Turkish
> War who had settled among them".

And that is the complete and utterly incontestable truth, only she is

a very dim person like you who cannot understand similarities,
differences and identities...a mark of sanity for those who can.

> b) "The public attention directed at my work has not always been welcome
or
> comfortable. Some Greek critics, emotionalized by a sense of patriotism,
> have denounced both me and my work, accusing me of everything from
> "stupidity" and "cannibalism" to being a "secret agent" of the FYROM".

False statement by her. She being of low IQ doesn't realise that she is
completely wrong in her ideas and conclusions.

> c) "As a native Greek writing critically on the Macedonian issue, I have
> felt at times like a woman who unwittingly violated taboos by peering
behind
> the veils and revealing the "sacred flutes" of Greek national ideology".
> d) "The Treaty of Bucharest, signed on to August 1913, marked the end of
the
> Second Balkan War. Under its terms, the region of Macedonia was
partitioned
> between the kingdoms of Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Greece received
> roughly half (51 percent) of the region, Serbia obtained just over
one-third
> (34 percent), and Bulgaria a little less than 15 percent".

Completely and utterly incorrect. The following, folks, shows just how

little that women knows and how uneducated she really is:

Here is the real area of Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif

95% of the real Macedonia is in northern Greece! Theerefore this
women has no idea of what she is writing and only a foolish publisher

would have even published her nonsense except under the heading
fantasy.

> Or from the archaeologist Andronikos( on the more distant past):

>
> THESSALONIKE MUSEUM: Professor of Archaeology at the University of
> Thessalonike, Manolis Andronicos, and his associates produced a film under
> the title "The Glory of Macedonia". Andronicos: "The Macedonian produced
> Alexander was not Greek at all. Macedonia was ruled by kings. It was a
> kingdom, whereas, Athens had democracy, a great achievement of the Greek
> civilization". Furthermore: "Greeks after all lived in city-states, where
> Greeks as proper civilized people should live. Whereas, Macedonians lived
> under what the Greeks considered to be primitive and highly authoritative
> monarchy".
> It should be an overwhelming clue to you grkomani MORONS that if
Macedonians
> and Greeks were of the same stock then they would have the same way of
life
> (political-civil) structure. But they weren't of the same stock, hence the
> mentioned differences.

To state that about ancient Greece is soooo foolish that the writer can only
know nothing of ancient Greece or any of it's Greek inhabitants...including

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 28, 2003, 8:54:08 AM1/28/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote:
.....................................

> > Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect
> > and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
> Say lobotomised GRKOMANI parrots of your ilk.

The point is that it is true.

> "Slavoskopian" exists only in the damaged (lobotomised) minds, such as yours
> Yane boy. Tell us where Arrian or Polibius say that Macedonians speak
> "greek" language, moron?

When Alexamdros saw an epigraph written in Persian he liked it so much that he
asked to be translated in Greek in order to be read by all his army !!
Why not in Macedonian ?? Why only in Greek.

> Nevertheless, here is something (for those of you who are capable) to
> ponder about from the more recent past, specifically since the occupation of
> Macedonia by Greece.

............................................

> d) "The Treaty of Bucharest, signed on to August 1913, marked the end of the
> Second Balkan War. Under its terms, the region of Macedonia was partitioned
> between the kingdoms of Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Greece received
> roughly half (51 percent) of the region, Serbia obtained just over one-third
> (34 percent), and Bulgaria a little less than 15 percent".

This shows that Karakasidou is stupid at least once. She includes in Macedonia
region the Skopje area. This is wrong of course. Skopje never was in
Macedonia. Only a small part of Macedonia along the GrecoFyromian borders of
10-15km wide are know occupied by FYROM. Yes Pelagonia was in Macedonia and
nothing northerner !! It is well known because the Macedonian name of the
river in Pelagonia was Erigon and if we Macedonians possessed that land we
would restore this name. But SlavoSkopians as foreigners did not respect any
Macedonian name. They name the river after a Slavic word namely Crna ( =
black). because if they restored ancient Macedonian names then Macedonia's
Greekness would be obvious to blind SlavoSkopian minds either.
The rest of Karakasidou words above are true but irrelevant.

> Or from the archaeologist Andronikos( on the more distant past):
> THESSALONIKE MUSEUM: Professor of Archaeology at the University of
> Thessalonike, Manolis Andronicos, and his associates produced a film under
> the title "The Glory of Macedonia". Andronicos: "The Macedonian produced
> Alexander was not Greek at all. Macedonia was ruled by kings. It was a
> kingdom, whereas, Athens had democracy, a great achievement of the Greek
> civilization". Furthermore: "Greeks after all lived in city-states, where
> Greeks as proper civilized people should live. Whereas, Macedonians lived
> under what the Greeks considered to be primitive and highly authoritative
> monarchy".

Spartan artifacts were obviously different than Athenian ones. If you show me
two pillars one Athenian and one Spartan I would say you who is who.
Yes Macedonians were always Greeks just because they spread Greek Language and
Civilization to the World.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Panayiotis

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Jan 28, 2003, 3:09:45 PM1/28/03

to

Dear Zhivko,
I had a talk with a lawyer from Assiros about the book of Karakassidou. He
told me it is all BS and wondered why she chose his village to make her
study. She received a fellowship and an amount was alocated to her to write
on a predefined subject.
But, take a look what I found on the following site:
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/bibliography.html#29
QUOTE
This interesting book of anthropological fieldwork showing how and why
people in Assiros chose Greekness, is unfortunately marred by serious
historical mistakes. The Greco-Turkish war in Asia minor took place in
1919-1922 and not in 1922-23 as she mentions four times (p141,142,144,200);
Venizelos did not preside over the Lausanne Conference (p145), he merely
represented Greece there; the evzoni were not Greek Independence fighters
(p198) but a military unit so named long after Greece became a nation-state;
it is simply not true that the British moved to support Kemal’s Government
at ‘a critical moment in Greece’s Asia Minor campaign’ (p 287); Metaxas did
not die in 1940 (p 295) but in 1941; the Italian government did not seek in
October 1940 ‘right of passage for its troops through Greece in order to
invade Ethiopia’ (p 302) because the Ethiopian campaign–that had started in
1936–had long finished by then; the civil war in Greece did not end in 1947
but in 1949(p 303).
UNQUOTE

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b14f6m$lr3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

Panayiotis

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Jan 30, 2003, 5:59:12 PM1/30/03

to

Dear Zhivko,
Your analysis and conclusions, the least I can say, are naive. Tyrants ruled
many Greek cities, like Corinth, Samos and cities in Magna Grecia (Sicily
and Italy). No one can deny they were Greeks.

But, I was really astonished when you say that Manolis Andronicos said that
Macedonians were not Greeks. You could have quoted some other scientist or
archeologist, but you chose Andronicos!!! Kidstuff! Your reference of a film
is suspicious. How many have seen that film? Goebels did it better. He was
smarter. And here is the proof. If Andronicos believed what you say he did,
wouldn't he put it in writing?
Please check the following site: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/
It is a pseudo-Macedonian site, yours! I only quote what your site says
about Andronicos' beliefs.
QUOTE
The Greek archeologist Manolis Andronikos also claims that the ancient
Macedonians were Greeks. In his " Vergina: The Royal Tombs", he wrote :
"In the most unambivalent way this evidence confirms the opinion of those
historians who maintain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe, like all
the others who lived on Greek territory, and shows that the theory that they
were of Illyrian or Thracian descent and were hellenized by Philip and
Alexander rests on no objective criteria." (Manolis Andronikos, Vergina: The
Royal Tombs, p.83-85)
UNQUOTE

From another site (http://users.hellasnet.gr/tilefos/ellinika.htm), I quote
(translation from Greek):
"It was in 1989 when Manolis Andronicos in a presentation at the Acropolis
Museum said among other things that " the Greekness of Macedonia is proven
merely by the fact that at Dion out of the 70 names found in the graves and
the various monuments, 68 were Greek."

I detest your unethical behavior.
Panayiotis

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

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Ilinden

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Jan 30, 2003, 6:41:49 PM1/30/03

to

PANAJOTI YOU ARE FULL OF PROPAGANDA.
Darius III knew that Macedonia was not Hellas.The Macedonian language
with the Hellenic language had nothing in common. The operative word is
"age-old distinction" between Macedonians and Hellenes. "The reason for
including Macedonia as part of a larger Hellas was designed to justify
Macedonian participation in the so called war of revenge. Macedonians
never regarded their territory as forming part of Hellas. Certainly the
Greek poleis did not regard Macedonia as being another Greek polis.
Philip II never visited Athens. Alexander went there on a business trip
and to receive Athens' capitulation terms after the battle of Chaeronea.

Ilinden the Macedonian

Panayiotis

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Jan 30, 2003, 7:03:11 PM1/30/03

to

Dear Ilinden,
In your replies, please present data and quote your sources, the way I do.
Conversation and exchange of ideas is more interesting that way.
Love always,
Panayiotis

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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Ilinden

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Jan 30, 2003, 7:21:21 PM1/30/03

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Panajoti here is the irrefutable evidence for you.
Lets get some irrefutable evidence. Forget the books what, when, where,
what Herodotus said about the king of Macedonia, Alexander the Great
2,000 years ago. Ever since the Greek occupation in Aegean Macedonia
what the Greeks have done to me! They changed my first and last names
from Macedonian to Greek, they changed my Macedonian village name, the
river, mountain, my city, my lake they suppressed my Macedonian
language. They have not allowed the Macedonians to have Macedonian
schools. Even today the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia are not allowed
to baptize a baby with a Macedonian name. This is true even in Canada,
U.S.A. and Australia. If you are going to a Greek church and try to
baptize a baby in the Greek church with a Macedonian name you are not
allowed to do this also. But if you go to a Macedonian church to baptize
your baby you can most certainly have a Greek name. I cannot call Greece
a democracy. The idea of a Greek democracy is a total fallacy.

Panayiotis

unread,

Jan 30, 2003, 8:03:17 PM1/30/03

to

Dear Ilinden,
I live in Thessaloniki. No one can deny that Thessaloniki is in Macedonia.
My first and last names are Macedonian (=Greek) and I have baptised my two
children and gave them Macedonian (=Greek) names, Alexandros (my father's
name) and Giorgos (my father-in-law's name).
What happened to you, happens to many people in many countries. An American
friend of mine told me his great-grandfather in Ireland was compelled by the
British to change his name from O'Toole (like the actor) to Toal.
But look what your Slav forefathers did to us. They named Thessaloniki as
Solun, Veria as Ber and Axios River as Vardar and many more. Really, in the
Bible, did Saint Paul Visit Solun and Ber, or Thessaloniki and Veria?
Regards,
Panayiotis
P.S. When I say regards, I mean it. Afterall, who came to your assistance in
1963 when you had that devastating eartquake in Skopje? In the future we can
be friends again.

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E39C181...@sympatico.ca...

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 30, 2003, 10:10:32 PM1/30/03

to

PANAJOTI YOUR COMMENT PLEASE.
Macedonian village names

THE NAMES OF 804 MACEDONIAN VILLAGES IN AEGEAN
MACEDONIA,
occupied by Greece in 1912, that have forcedly been changed from 1926
and
forward.
Submitted by Lena Jankovski and Alex Bakratcheff

Following the 1913 Treatry of Bucharest, the Macedonian place names
that existed
were gradually changed to Greek named, this included people's family
and given
names, and was called Hellenization.
1927 Greek Government Legislative Edict
The Greek Government Gazette declared that "there are not any
non-Greek people
in Greece". This was part of a process whereby all the names of
Macedonian
villages, towns, regions, etc. were changed, together with the
surnames of ethnic
Macedonians, into Greek versions.
1934-1941 Military Dictatorship in Greece
At its height, the Facists regime prohibits the speaking of
Macedonian.

MACEDONIAN NAME (District) Greek changed name
--------------------------
-------------------------

Agova mahala (Ser) Adelfikon
Ahil (Kostur)
Agios Ahileos
Aivatovo (Solun) Liti
Ajtos Lerin)
Aetos
Akandzhaly (Kukush) Muries
Alchak (Kukush) Hamilon
Alistrat (Ser)
Alistrati
Apidija (Ser)
Aposkep (Kostur) Aposkepos
Arapli (Solun) Lehanokipos
Armensko (Lerin) Alonas
Arsen (Voden) Poliplatanon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Babakjoj (Kukush) Mesja
Babchor (Kostur) Pimenikon
Baldzha (Solun) Melisohorion
Banitza (Lerin) Vevi
Banitza (Ser) Karie
Barakli Dzhumaja (Ser) Valteron
Barovitza (Kukush) Kastaneri
Bejlik mahale (Ser) Valtotopi
Bela Tzarkva (Kostur)
Bel Kamen (Lerin) Drosopigi
Belotintzi (Drama) Levkoija
Ber (Solun) Veria (Imatja)
Berishcha Ptelea
Besvina (Kostur) Sfika
Biraltzi (Kozhany) Perdikas
Bitushe Parorion
Bizovo Megaloplatanos
Blatza (Kostur) Oksies
Blatze Ahladia
Bobishcha (Kostur) Vergas
Boevo Katsanovo
Bogatsko (Kostur) Agios Nikolaos
Bojmitza (Kukush) Aksiupolis
Boreshnitza Palestra
Boriany Agios Atanasios
Borislav Periklia
Borovo Potami
Bostandzievtzi (Kostur)
Bozhetz (Voden) Atiras
Brest (Kukush) Akrolimnion
Breshcheny (Kostur) Kria Nera
Breznitza (Kostur) Vatohorion
Bruhovo Kokina Egri
Buf Akrita
Buf (Lerin) Bufi
Bugarievo (Solum) Karavias
Buk Paranestion
Bukovik (Kostur) Oksia
Bulamasli Akakies
Bultishta Profitis Ilias
Bumboki (Kostur) Makrohori
Butkovo Kerkini
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Chavdar Psomotopi
Chegan (Lerin) Meteora
Chegan (Voden) Agios Atanasios
Chekri (Voden) Paralimni
Cherepljan (Ser) Tserepljani
Chereshnitza (Kostur) Polikerason
Chereshovo (Drama) Tisavros
Chereshovo Pagoneri
Cherkezkjoi (Lerin) Limnohori
Cherkovian Klidohor
Cherna reka (Kukush) Karpi
Chernak Strotis
Chernova Fitia
Chernovishcha (Kostur) Mavrokampos
Chetirok (Kostur) Mesopotamja
Chichigaz (Voden) Stavrodromi
Chiflik(Radogozhe)(Kostur) Triha
Chirpishcha (Ser) Terpni
Chor (Kozhany) Galatija
Chuchuligovo (Ser) Anagenizis
Chuguntzi (Kukush) Megali Sterna
Chuka (Kostur) Puka
Churilovo (Kostur) Tsirilovon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dabovo (Kukush) Valtotopi
Dambeni (Kostur) Dendrohori
Darovo Kehrokampos
Dautli (Kukush) Ambelohori
Debretz (Kozhany) Anarahi
Demir Hisar (Ser) Sidirokastron (Sintiki)
Dere Kalitea
Dervent Akritodohori
Dobrolishcha (Kostur) Kalohori
Doksat (Drama) Doksaton
Doleny (Kostur) Zevgostasi
Dolni Poroj (Ser) Kato Poroja
Dolno Drenoveny (Kostur) Kato Kranionas
Dolno Garbali Kato Surmena
Dolno Kalenik (Lerin) Kato Kaleniki
Dolno Kleshtino Kato Klene
Dolno Kotori (Lerin) Kato Idrusa
Dolno Krushevo (Ser) Kato Kerdilion
Dolno Kufalovo (Solun) Kufalja
Dolno Nevoljani (Lerin) Valtonera
Dolno Papratsko (Kostur) Kato Fterias
Dolno Rodivo Kato Korifi
Dovishta (Ser) Papas Emanuil
Drachevo Levkotea
Dragomantzi Apsalos
Dragomir Vapsiohori
Dragosh Zevgolatio
Dragotin (Ser) Promahon
DRAMA DRAMA
Dramendzhik Drakontion
Dranich Antifilipi
Dranichevo (Kostur)
Dravunishta Geraki
Dremiglava Drimos
Drenichevo (Kostur) Kranohori
Drenoveny (Kostur) Kranionas
Drenovo (Kostur) Glikoneri
Drenovo (Ser) Dranovan
Drenovo Monastiraki
Dreveno Pili
Drobishcha (Kostur) Daseri
Druska Drosia
Dudular (Solun) Djavata
Dupjak (Kostur) Dispilion
Durbanli (Kukush) Sinoron
Durdanli (Kukush) Patohori
Durgutli Nigdi
Dutli Eleon
Dzhuma (Kozhany) Amigdala
Dzuma Migdala
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Egri Dere (Drama) Kalitea
Ehatli Kavalaris
Ekshi-su (Lerin) Ksino Nero
Eleovo (Kostur) Lakia
Eleshnitza (Ser) Fea Pitra
Elshen (Ser) Karperi
Embore (Kozhany) Enborion
Enidzhe-Vardar (Voden) Janitza
Enikjoi (Ser) Provatas
Ezeretz (Kostur) Petropulaki
Ezhovo (Ser) Dafni
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Fetishcha Pola Nera
Fotinishcha (Kostur) Fotini
Fotovishcha Valtohoro
Frankovitza Ermakia
Futzeli Semeli
Fustani Evropos
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Gabresh (Kostur) Gavros
Galishcha (Kostur) Omorfoklisia
Garbasel Kastanies
Gariptzi Hloronomos
Garleni (Kostur) Hionaton
Gaskarla Kalohori
Gavalantsi (Kukush) Valtudi
Gavrishcha Dorotea
Gedi-Dermen Eptomili
Georgolik (Kukush) Gorgopi
Gerakartzi (Kukush) Gerakonos
German (Ser) Shistolitos
Gevsekli Rematia
Gjulobasi Pikrolimni
Gjumendzhe (Kukush) Gumenitza (Peonija)
Gjumenich Stiva
Gjundzheli Vamvakuza
Gjupchevo Gipsohori
Gjuredzhik (Drama) Granitis
Gjuvezna Asiros
Globoshchitza Kalohorio
Gola Korifes
Golem Besik Megali Volvi
Golem Sevidrik Megalokampos
Golema Livada (Voden) Megala Livadija
Golishani (Voden) Levkadia
Golo selo (Voden) Gimna
Gorentzi (Kostur) Korisos
Gorjantzi (Drama)
Gorna Nushka Ano Dafnudi
Gorni Kotor (Lerin) Ano Idrusa
Gorni Metoh (Ser)
Gorni Poroj (Ser) Ano Poroja
Gorni Postular Ano Apostoli
Gornitza Kalivrisi
Gornichevo (Lerin) Keli
Gorno Brodi (Ser) Ano Vrondu
Gorno Drenoveny (Kostur) Ano Kranionas
Gorno Garbali Ano Surmena
Gorno Karadzhovo (Ser) Monoklisia
Gorno Klestino Ano Klene
Gorno Krushare Ekso Asladohori
Gorno Krushovo (Ser) Ano Kerdilion
Gorno Kufalovo (Solun) Kuflja
Gorno Kumanichevo (Kostur)
Gorno Nevoljani (Lerin) Skopja
Gorno Papratsko (Kostur) Ano Fterias
Gorno Pozharsko (Voden) Ano Lutraki
Gorno Rodivo (Voden) Ano Korifi
Gorno Selo Ano Vermion
Gosno (Kostur)
Govlishta Krokos
Gradishte Kiros
Gradobor (Solun) Gradeboin
Gradobor Nikopolis
Grache (Kostur) Ftelia
Gramos (Kostur) Gramos
Granichevo Krioneri
Grazhden Vronteron
Grazhdino (Kostur) Vronderon
Gropino Voltolivado
Gugovo (Voden) Viritja
Gulintzi (Lerin) Rodonas
Gurbesh Agriosikia
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hadzhi-bejlik Vironia
Hadzhi-bajramli Teodosia
Hadzhik Filiros
Hajderli (Kozhany) Klitos
Harava Polikilon
Harbino (Kozhany) Ftelionas
Harman-kjoi Stadmos
Harsovo Herson
Hasanovo (Lerin) Mesohori
Haznatar Hrizohorafa
Hedzik Fikiros
Hodzhovo Karidia
Holeva Amision
Homandos (Ser)
Hristos (Ser) Hristos
Hrupishcha (Kostur) Argos Orestikon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ilezli Inoi
Ilidzhievo (Solun)
Indzes Eratni
Ineli (Kozhany) Anatolikon
Ineovo Avrini
Ishirli Platanotopos
Istrane Perasma
Izbishcha (Drama) Agriokerasia
Izglibe (Kostur) Poria
Izvor (Kukush) Pigi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jadzilar Ksilokeratia
Janchishcha (Solun) Janisa
Janes Metaliko
Janikia Askos
Janovene (Kostur) Janohori
Janozli Karpofonom
Jaramzli Ajdonia
Javor Diamezon
Javoreny (Voden) Platani
Javornitza Nea Kuklina
Juklemes (Kozhany) Farangi
Jundzhular Kimina
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kabasnitza (Lerin) Proti
Kadinovo (Voden) Galatas
Kajachaly Triadi
Kajali Vrahia
Kajljari (Kozhany) Ptolemajs (Eordeja)
Kalapot (Drama) Paleon Kalapoti
Kalenik (Lerin)
Kalevishcha (Kostur) Kali Vrisi
Kalinovo (Kukush) Sutojaneika
Kaljany Eani
Kamareto (Ser) Kamaroti
Kamenik Petrias
Kamila (Ser) Ano Kamili
Kandza Aniksia
Kapinjany Eksaplatanos
Kara-bej Karna
Kara-bunar (Kukush) Mavroneri
Kara-bunar (Solun) Angelofrori
Kara-bunar (Kozhany) Mavropigi
Kara-Chali (Solun) Mavrodendri
Kara-Chali (Drama) Mavrovatos
Kara-Chali (Ser) Kaliroj
Kara-chukali Kardia
Karadzha Evangelizmos
Karadzha-kjoi (Solun) Kartera
Karadzha-kjoi (Drama) Tolos
Karadzhova Elafohori
Karagatz Mavrodendri
Kara-ilar Drepanon
Kara-kjoj Kalegiri
Kara-kjoj (Drama) Katafiton
Kara-mahala Koronia
Karamanli Agios Kozmos
Karandzhilari Zarkadia
Kara-sule (Kukush) Polikastron
Kara-tepe Mavrolofos
Karchishta Polianemon
Karchovo Koridohori
Kardzhalar Adendron
Karilova Zardadion
Karladovo Milias
Karlakovo Mikropolis
Karli-kjoi (Ser) Hionohoron
Karpeny (Kostur)
Katranitza (Kozhany) Pirgi
Katun Dipotama
Kavadzhik Levkadi
Kavakli (Drama) Egiros
Kavakli (Kukush) Perintos
Kavakli (Ser) Levkonas
KAVALA KAVALA
Kazanovo Kotili
Kesedzhi Chiflik (Ser) Sidirohorion
Kiklova Kastanies
Kirech-kjoi (Solun) Azevstohorion
Kjospekli (Ser) Skutari
Klabuchishta Poliplatanos
Kladorobi (Lerin) Kladorahi
Klepushna (Ser) Agriani
Klishali Prositis
Klisura (Kostur) Klisura
Kobalishte (Drama) Kokinoja
Kochan Rizana
Kochana Perea
Kochany Kostani
Kokova Polidendri
Kolaritza Manjaki
Kolibi (Kukush) Skinite
Komarjan Kimaria
Komen (Kozhany) Komanos
Kondorbi (Kostur)
Konitza Pevki
Konikovo Stiba
Konomlady (Kostur) Makrohori
Konsko Talakini
Konuj (Kozhany) Elos
Korchak Mirini
Koriten (Kukush) Ksirohori
Kormishta (Ser) Kormista
Kornishor (Voden) Kromni
Kosinetz (Kostur) Jeropigi
Kosinovo Polipetron
KOSTUR KASTORIA
Kosturadzhe (Kostur) Ksifonia
KOZHANY KOZANY
Kozhusany Filotia
Kozlukjoi (Kozhany) Kariohori
Kramtza Mezovunos
Kranishta Dendrari
Krastali Korona
Krechovo Agios Jorgios
Krepeshino (Lerin) Atrapos
Kriva (Kukush) Grivas
Krontzelevo (Voden) Kerasies
Krushari Ampelies
Krushoradi (Lerin) Ahlada
Krushovo (Ser) Ahladohorion
Kuchkari Galini
Kuchkoveny (Lerin) Perazma
KUKUSH KILKIS
Kula Paleokastron
Kulakija Halastra
Kumanich (Drama) Dasaton
Kumanichevo (Kostur) Litia
Kumli (Ser) Amudja
Kurchishcha (Kostur) Polianemon
Kurchovo (Ser) Karidohori (Liebra)
Kushinovo (Kukush) Polipetron
Kushovo Kokina
Kutlesh Vergina
Kula Paleokastron
Kutuger Halastra
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Labanitza (Kostur) Agios Dimitrios
Ladza Terma
Lanki Mikrolimni
Lagino (Lerin) Triandafilia
Lagadina (Solun) Litokastron (Langadas)
Lakavigtza Mikromilia
Langa (Kozhany) Milohori
Latrovo Hortero
Lazheny (Lerin) Mesonisi
Lebishevo (Kostur) Aila
Lehovo (Ser) Krasohori
Lelovo (Kukush) Agios Antonios
Lembed Evkarpia
LERIN FLORINA
Leskovetz (Lerin) Leptokaries
Leskovo Tria Elata
Lestan Farasinon
Leveny Vasiludi
Liban Skaloti
Libanovo Eginion
Libjahovo (Drama)
Lichishta (Kostur) Polikarpos
Likovan Ksilopolis
Likovishta Likojani
Lipintzi (Kozhany) Azvestopetra
Lipush (Ser) Filira
Lise Ohiron
Ljubetino (Lerin) Pedinon
Ljumnitza Skra
Loshnitza (Kostur) Germas
Lovcha (Drama) Kalikarpon
Lovcha (Ser) Akrohori
Lozanovo Palefiton
Lozitza Mezolofos
Ludovo (Kostur) Kria Nera
Luguntzi (Voden) Langadia
Lukovich Sotira
Lunki (Kostur) Mikro Limno
Luvrade (Kostur) Skieron
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Machukovo (Kukush) Evzoni
Mahala (Lerin) Tropeuhos
Mahaledzik Milorema
Malak Besik Mikra Volvi
Malesh (Ser) Vamvakja
Malko-Osmanli Kosmiti
Malovtzi Hilioluston
Mangila (Mogila) (Kostur) Ano Perivoli
Manjak (Kostur) Manjaki
Marchishcha (Kostur) Kato Perivoli
Markoveny (Kostur) Markohori
Mavrovo (Solun) Mavruda
Mavrovo (Kostur) Mavrohori
Mech Mezi
Medovo (Kostur) Milionas
Melnikich (Ser) Melenikitzion
Menteseli Eli
Mentesli Moshuia
Merjan Ligaria
Mertatevo Ksirotopos
Mesely Drias
Mesimer (Voden) Mesimeri
Mezdurek Melisurgio
Mijalovo (Kukush) Mihalitzi
Milovo Megali Gefira
Mirovo Eliniko
Mokreny (Kostur) Variko
Mokro Polikrinos
Morafca Antigonia
Morartzi (Kukush)
Mramor Kapetanudi
Mrsna Gonimon
Munchino Lekani
Munuhy Mavrotalasa
Muralar Pelagros
Muralti Skopos
Murodonli Mirovliton
Mursali Monokaridia
Musacali Aetofolia
Muselim Aedonokastron
Muska Kudunia
Mutulovo Metaksohori
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Negochany Niri
Negovan (Lerin) Flamburion
Negush Nausa
Nered (Lerin) Polipotamon
Nesram (Nestram)(Kostur) Nestorion
Nestime (Kostur) Nastimon
Neukazy (Lerin) Neohoraki
Neveska (Lerin) Nimfeon
Nevoleny (Lerin) Skopia
Nevoleny Vamvaria
Nigoslav Nikoklia
Nigrita (Ser) Nigrita (Visaltija)
Nisia (Voden) Nision
Nivitza (Kostur) Psarades
Novi Grad (Lerin) Ve Gora
Novoseltzi Joromilos
Novo Selo (Kostur) Korfula
Novo Selo (Solun) Nehorion
Novo Selo (Solun) Neohoruda
Novoseljany (Kostur) Nea Komi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Obor Aravizos
Obsirena Etnikon
Oktzilar Toksote
Oladzhak Platamon
Olishcha (Kostur) Melisotopos
Omotzko (Kostur) Livadotopos
Opaja (Kostur) Opaja
Orchovitza Pevkodazos
Organdzhi (Drama) Organzi
Organdzilar Sapeon
Orizartzi (Kukush) Rizia
Orizari (Voden) Rizarion (Rizo)
Orljak (Ser) Strimonikon
Orman (Kostur) Kato-Levki
Ormanli (Drama) Polikarpos
Ormanli (Ser) Dasohori
Ormanovo Dasero
Orovnik (Kostur) Karie
Orovo (Kostur) Piksos
Osheny (Kostur) Inoi
Oshchima (Kostur) Trigonon
Osin Argangelos
Osljani Agios Fotini
Oslovo Panagitza
Osmanitza Kalos Agros
Osmanli (Pravishta) Hrisokastron
Osmanli (Haldiki) Neromilos
Osnichani (Kostur) Kastanofiton
Ostitza Mikromilia
Ostima Trigonon
Ostrovo (Voden) Arnisa
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Palior (Kozhany) Fufa
Palmes Kastanusa
Papdia (Lerin) Papagja
Papli (Kostur) Levkonas
Paprat Pontokerasia
Pastrovo Kalikrunon
Patele (Lerin) Agios Panteleimon
Patele Pontokerasia
Patichino Patima
Pataros (Kukush) Drosaton
Pazarlar Agora
Pazarli (Haldiki) Dikorfon
Pazarli (Kukush) Melansion
Pejkovo Agios Markoc
Pejzanovo (Solun) Azevstohorion
Pelkati Monopili
Pernovali Agia Ekaterini
Pesjak (Kostur) Amudara
Pesochnitza (Lerin) Amohorion
Petersko (Lerin) Petras
Petgas (Kukush) Pentalofos
Petoritza Hrizohori
Petrovo (Kukush) Agios Petros
Pilkadi (Kostur) Monopilon
Pilorik (Voden) Pilorigi
Piskopija (Voden) Episkopi
Pisoder (Kostur) Pisoderion
Planitza Fiska
Plashnichevo Kria Vrisi
Pleshevitza (Lerin) Kolhiki
Plevna (Drama) Petrusa
Plugar (Voden) Ludias
Pochep (Voden) Margarita
Pod (Voden) Podos
Podgorjany Podohorion
Poljany Polikarpi
Ponor (Kozhany)
Popli (Lerin) Lefkonas
Popolzhany (Lerin) Papajanis
Popovo (Kukush) Miriofiton
Porna Gazoros
Postol (Voden) Pela (Agio Apostoli)
Potores Agia Kiriaki
Pozdivishcha (Kostur) Halara
Pozhari (Solun) Kefalohori
Prahna Aspro
Pravishte (Kavala) Elefteropolis (Pamgeon)
Prebadishte Sosandra
Prekopana (Kostur)
Prekopana (Lerin) Perikopi
Presechen (Drama) Protzani
Pribojna Vunohoron
Prosenik (Ser) Skotusa
Prosochen Pirsopolis
Provishta Palekomi
Pselsko Kipseli
Psore (Kostur) Ipsilon
Puljovo Termopigi
Purlida Konhilia
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Radigoze Agia Ana
Radomir (Kukush) Asvestario
Radovishta Rodjani
Radovo Haropo
Radunishta (Kozhany) Krio Vrisi
Ragjan Vati
Rahmanli (Kukush) Antigoni
Rahmanli (Lerin) Eleuza
Rahmanli (Kozhany) Galina
Rahovitza Marmaras
Rahovo (Solun) Rahia
Rahovo (Drama) Mezorahi
Rajkovche (Ser) Kapnotopos
Rakistan Katahloron
Rakita (Kozhany) Olimpias
Radovo Krateron
Ramel Rahona
Ramna (Kukush) Monoliti
Ramna (Voden) Omalon
Ramna (Kozhany) Omalon
Ranislav Agati
Rantzi (Kozhany) Ermakja
Rapes Drepani
Rasovo Limon
Ravenia Makriplagi
Ravitza Kalifiton
Ravna (Ser) Isoma
Razenik Haradra
Rehimli Mezia
Resen Sitaria
Resilovo Haritomeni
Retini Riakon
Revany (Kostur) Dipotamja
Rizovo Rizo
Rjamentzi (Ser)
Robovo Rodonas
Rudari (Kostur) Ekalitea
Rudino Aloras
Rulja (Kostur) Katohori
Rumbi Lemos
Rum-Saret Vromosiria
Rupel (Ser) Klidion
Rupishcha (Kostur)
Rusinovo (Drama) Ksantogia
Rusovo Makroliti
Ruzheny Rizohori
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sabotsko (Voden) Ardeja (Almopija)
Sachishcha (Kozhany) Sjatista
Sadina Karavi
Sakaftza Evadohori
Sakulevo Marina
Salamanli Galikos
Salpovo (Kozhany) Ardasa
Samar (Voden) Samari
Samokovo Domatia
Saratzi Falara
Saradza Valtohori
Saraj Sholarion
Sarajli Palatianon
Sarakinovo (Lerin) Sarakini
Sara-pazar (Kukush) Antofiton
Sarashaban Hrisopolis
Sari-gjol (Kukush) Kriston
Sarmusakli (Ser) Pendapolis
Sarmusalari Kokinohori
Savek (Ser) Vamvakofiton
Sborsko (Voden) Revkoton
Sehovo (Kukush) Idomeni
Seljany Mezorena
Semasi (Kostur) Kremaston
Sendelchevo Sandali
Seneleli Rodokipos
SER SERES
Seremeti Fanarion
Serermli Kserovrisi
Seslovo (Kukush) Sevaston
Setina (Lerin) Skopos
Setoma (Kostur) Kefalari
Sevendekli Eptalofon
Severjany Vorino
Sfiltzi Hromion
Shakovitza (Kostur)
Shekerki (Kukush) Zaharaton
Sheshtevo (Kostur) Sidirohori
Shilinos (Ser) Sfelinos
Shijak (Kostur) Komninades
Shkrapar (Kostur)
Shlimnishcha (Kostur) Milica
Shljopintsi (Kukush) Dogani
Shtarkovo (Kostur) Plati
Sicevo Sidirohori
Siderova Mezovuni
Singelevo (Ser)
Sivry Nea Mahala
Skrizhevo (Ser) Skopia
Slatina (Kostur) Hrisi
Slatina (Voden) Hrisi
Sliveny (Kostur) Koromilia
Smol (Kukush) Mikron Dasos
Smurdesh (Kostur) Kristalopigi
Snicheny (Kostur)
Sokol (Ser) Sikja
Sokolovo Parapotomos
SOLUN THESSALONIKI
Sosuri Nimfi
Spantzi (Lerin) Fanos
Spantzi (Kukush) Latomi
Spatjovo (Ser) Kimesis
Spirlitovo Plagiari
Sporlita Elefina
Srebreny (Lerin) Asproija
Starchishta (Drama) Peritorion
Starichany (Kostur) Lakomata
Statitza (Kostur) Melas
Stavros (Solun) Stavros
Stavrovo Stavrodromi
Stensko (Kostur) Stena
Straishta Ida
Strezovo (Kukush) Argirupolis
Strupino Likostomon
Subas-Kjoj Neon Suli
Sufilar (Halkidiki) Angelohori
Sufilar (Kavala) Angelohori
Suha-banja (Tashino ezero) Paliotros
Suha-banja (Ser) Ksilotros
Suho (Solun) Sohos
Sujudzuk Lima
Sulovo Amaranta
Surlevo (Kukush) Amaranda
Surovichevo (Lerin) Amindeon
Sveta Marina (Ber) Agia Marina
Sveta Nedelja (Kostur) Agia Kiriaki
Sveta Petka (Lerin) Agia Paraskevi
Sveti Atanas (Drama) Agios Atanasios
Sveti Ilija (Voden) Profitis Ilias
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tagramishevo Idromilos
Tarlis (Drama) Vatitopos
Tarlis Sidirohori
Tarnaa (Kostur)
Tarnovo (Kostur) Ankatoton
Tarsje (Kostur) Trivunon
Tehovo (Voden) Karadjas
Tekelievo (Solun) Sindos
Tekri Paralimni
Tekri-Vermisly Kserorevma
Telkili Petralona
Tikisli Talasia
Tikveny (Kostur) Kalokinton
Tiolishcha (Kostur) Tihion
Todorak (Kukush)
Tohova Palionelines
Toilar Peristeri
Toma Avgo
Toptzi Gefira
Topchilar Agios Dimitrios
Topljany Jorgjani
Topola Kiriaki
Topoljan (Ser) Hrisos
Topchievo (Solun) Gerifa
Topolovo Nea Tiroloi
Tranka (Ser) Damaskinon
Trebeno (Kozhany) Kardja
Treboletz Tripolis
Trepishcha (Kozhany) Agios Hristoforos
Tresino (Voden) Ormai
Trifulchevo Trifili
Trihovishcha Kamiohori
Tuhol (Kostur) Pevkos
Tukovo Leptokaria
Tumba (Ser) Neos Skopos
Tumba (Kukush) Tumba
Tumba Emvolos
Turbesh (Ser) Makriotisa
Turcheli Trakiko
Tukitza Trias
Turje (Kostur) Korifi
Turmanli Rodonia
Tursko selo Milopotamos
Tushilovo (Kukush) Statis
Tusin (Voden) Aetohiri
Tzakoni (Kostur)
Tzarmarinovo (Voden) Marina
Tzarvishta (Ser) Kapnofiton
Tzerovo (Lerin) Klidi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Udzhana (Kozhany) Komninon
Ugurli Peristereon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Vadrishta (Kukush) Kambohorion
Vadrishta (Voden) Palea Milotopos
Vadrishta Milotopos
Valchshta Domeron
Valgatzi (Kukush) Kambohorion
Valkojanovo (Voden) Liki
Valkovo Hrisokefolos
Vambel (Kostur) Mosohori
Varbeny (Lerin) Itja
Varbnik (Kostur)
Varlankza Agroniri
Vartokop (Voden) Skidra
Vartolom Agios Vartolomeos
Vardarovtzi Aksiohori
Vardino Limnotopos
Vates Nea Epivate
Vatilak (Solun) Vatilakon
Vazheny Sevastia
Vazme (Drama) Eksohori
Veldziler Dimaros
Velishti Levkopigi
Verzhjany Kato Psihiko
Vetrina Neo Petrici
Veshtitza (Solun) Angelohorion
Veznik (Ser) Monikon
Vidulushche (Kostur)
Vichishcha (Kostur)
Vineny (Kostur) Pili
Virlan Anavrito
Vishen (Ser) Visjani
Visheny (Kostur) Vissinia
Visochan Ksiropotamos
Visoka Osa
Vitachishta (Ser) Vitasta
Vitan (Kostur) Votani
Vitivjany Polifiton
Vitovo Delta
Vladikovo Oropedion
Vladovo (Voden) Agras
VODEN EDESSA
Vojvodina (Kozhany) Spilia
Volak (Drama) Volaks
Volchishta (Ser) Domiros
Volchishta Idoea
Volovot Nea Santa
Voronos Kikomidinon
Vosova Sfikia
Voshtarany (Lerin) Meliti
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Zabardeny (Kostur) Melantion
Zabardeny (Lerin) Lofi
Zagoricheny (Kostur) Vasilias
Zahartzi Tagarades
Zarnovo (Drama) Kato Nevrokopion
Zarovo (Solun) Nikopolis
Zdraltza (Kostur) Ampelokipi
Zdravik Draviskos
Zeleniche (Lerin) Sklitron
Zhelegozhe (Kostur) Pentavrison
Zhelevo (Kostur) Andartikon
Zhelin (Kostur) Heliodendron
Zhensko (Kukush) Ginekokastron
Zherveny (Kostur) Agios Antonios
Zhupanishcha (Kostur) Anolevki
Zhuzheltzy (Kostur) Spilea
Ziljahovo Nea Zihni
Ziljahovo (Ser) Filidos
Zimbjul mahala Pevkolofos
Zorbatovo (Solun) Mikro Monastiri
Zulitza Spitea

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May god have mercy on their souls...Th Greek Papades...

NEW STATESMAN:

August 20 2000

The ayatollah replaces Zorba
by Helena Smith

A row over identity cards is giving the powerful Orthodox priests of
Greece a chance to exploit a dangerous
nationalism, reports Helena Smith

Strange things are going on in Greece. The country is wrestling with
an identity crisis and the Eastern Orthodox
Church, feeling wronged, appears to have gone mad.

Where you think you spot a priest, you invariably discover an activist
- men in black with stovepipe hats denouncing
the "dark forces" behind Athens's unusually progressive government.
The enlightened call them Orthodox
ayatollahs.

It's worrying stuff, the sort of thing that might make Pericles really
writhe in his grave. The cause of such rancour?
The removal of any reference to religion on civilian identity cards.
For a country in which 97 per cent of the
population is Christian and Eastern Orthodox, it would seem an
innocuous enough move. But in Greece - the
European Union's only Orthodox state - it has had an unexpectedly
explosive effect: all at once, Hellenes have had
to ask themselves who, and what, they want to be. And they are doing
it in a way that is not showing them in the
best of lights.

Greece's spiritual leaders - the self-styled protectors of Hellenism
through 400 years of Ottoman rule - retain an
influence on civil life unknown in any other part of the west: they
officiate at the swearing-in of governments, the
inauguration of public and private projects and the blessing of
private homes. In recognition of those close ties,
clerics receive state salaries. In their view, the Greeks are caught
up in their toughest fight yet to remain a cut above
the rest; to preserve their Christian Byzantine roots from the "meat
grinder" that is the EU.

Drop religious affiliation from identity cards - originally introduced
by a military dictatorship in the late 1930s - and,
the clerics argue, you sound the death knell of a single nation state.

The Greek prime minister, Costas Simitis, has tried to counter all
this by insisting that the reform brings Greece into
line with its European partners, and that "the declaration of one's
religious affiliation is not only discriminatory, but
offensive. It insults the right of every individual to privacy and
religious freedom."

The Church, however, remains adamant. Greece's bearded clerics regard
the "identity crisis" as the sort of thing that
could drag the nation into "civil war". In June, more than a million
Greeks (one-tenth of the population) flocked to
hear Archbishop Christodoulos, the Church Primate, denounce the
measure as the first step in a sinister plot to
de-Hellenise Greece. "Our faith is the foundation of our identity. If
you abolish one, you abolish the other," the
archbishop thundered, as the crowd of rumbustious flag-wavers cheered.
The scenes were reminiscent of the
fundamentalist fervour that once ran riot in Iran.

Increasingly, human rights groups have begun to wonder whether Greece
is a nice place, after all. Over the past ten
years, Athens has been repeatedly condemned by the European Court of
Human Rights for violations involving all of
its religious minorities. Away from the warm, taverna-terraced
beaches, fun-loving Zorbas and tourist-trampled
temples, Greeks treat those who dare to be different with red-hot
contempt.

Try being a Jew, Catholic, Muslim or Protestant, and you will not get
far - as the ranks of the Civil Service,
diplomatic corps and army so amply prove. Try being an immigrant, and
you are viewed as the reason for
unemployment and crime. Try mentioning ethnic minorities - officially,
they do not exist, bar communities of
Muslims and Roma - and you may be labelled "sick in the mind", to
quote Theodore Pangalos, the country's feisty
former foreign minister. Try taking a different tack in public on the
country's so-called "national issues", the ones
involving Turkey and other neighbours, and it is likely that you will
be branded a traitor.

"Modern Greece is an ethno-nationalist state par excellence," writes
the commentator Takis Michas in his
forthcoming book, Ethnic Totalitarianism. "'Others' are viewed as a
source of potential danger to the national
sovereignty and territorial integrity of Greece."

Twenty-six years after the collapse of the colonels, the fracas over
the identity cards smacks of "the Greece of
Christian Greeks", the rebarbative slogan that those petty officers
used to give their rotten regime an acceptable
allure. It also proves that liberty and equality, the values that
drive democracy, are still in short supply in this, the
birthplace of democracy.

I write this with a heavy heart. I am not a "mishellene", a
Greek-hater, although I know I will be cast as one when
this comes out. I have happily lived in and reported from Greece for
the past 14 years. I think I can say that it is a
magical place with some magical people.

The problem is that there are two Greeces: one that is western,
modern, open, reform-minded, civic, competitive,
risk-taking and international; and one that is eastern, traditional,
parochial, phobic, unskilled and introverted.

The country, mercifully, is now in the hands of the former. But they
are a minority - a "group of angels in a sea of
devils", as one wry observer recently put it. The political spectrum
is replete with members of the "other" Greece,
who see civic society, with all its talk of fundamental freedoms, as
reeking of anti-nationalism.

The present identity crisis has shown how far there is to go if the
twain are to meet. Greece's troublesome priests
show no sign of backing down soon. Archbishop Christodoulos may say he
does not want to turn his flock into
"fanatics", but he has seen that demagoguery works. Indeed, his
fighting spirit has sent shivers down the spine of the
governing Socialists.

The "eastern" Greeks, who support the archbishop's stand, can still
relate to the notorious declaration of the
Byzantine commander Loukas Notaras (uttered days before the sacking of
Constantinople in 1453) that it would be
better to see the Turkish turban in the city than the Roman cardinal's
mitre. For these people, civic society is still a
dirty word. They believe that they have nothing to gain from
globalisation, least of all the punishing reforms
required to take the nation into Euroland's new economic order.
Passions are clearly on the rise. In the Church, the
easterners see the embodiment of Greece's defensive national identity,
the only bulwark left against the creation of
a threatening, multi- cultural, open society.

"There is a very big underdog coalition from which the Church can draw
its strength - Greeks who feel very insecure
about the phenomenal pace of change in this country," says Professor
Nikiforos Diamantouros, Greece's ombudsman
and a political scientist.

Many Greeks are now praying that the identity crisis will eventually
lead to a full separation of the secular and
ecclesiastical spheres. "This, I hope, will be the beginning of the
formal separation of church and state," says Nikos
Dimou, the author of the bestselling book The Misery of Being Greek.
"The Church is the wealthiest institution in this
country, and it has far too much control. Greeks vote according to
church dioceses, the constitution is in the name of
the Holy Trinity and, even if they want to, they cannot die without it
because the Church has ensured that civil
burials don't exist."

There have already been calls by bishops for civil disobedience. As
the government prepares to print the new ID
cards, the Orthodox Church, clearly girding its loins for battle, says
it will encourage people not to take possession of
them.

Come 1 September, churchmen will begin collecting millions of
signatures for an "informal referendum" on the
issue.

Every European state is afflicted to some degree by the twin evils of
populism and racism. As the only country in the
EU not to border another member state, Greece differs only in the way
that it perceives its own watertight identity. It
remains the EU's poorest member, badly in need of crucial economic and
social reforms. Within the 15-nation bloc,
Greece still has the biggest labour force of civil servants and
small-time self-employed.

The Greeks have experienced more years of authoritarian, right-wing
rule than perhaps any other nation on the
Continent. The generation born since the restoration of real liberty
in 1974 is the first never to have experienced
war, civil strife or major economic convulsions. Understandably, it
feels more secure - as the unprecedented
enthusiasm for recent rapprochement between Athens and Ankara has
shown.

Now that the identity crisis is out in the open, and with this new
generation in mind, it is hoped that the Greeks will
finally be able to accept the idea that their own homogeneity is a
myth. Already, taboos have been lifted, not least
around the once sacred subject of the role of their Church.

There are few who are saying such things aloud. But, one way or
another, good may come of the madness.

Helena Smith has been awarded a Nieman Fellowship at Harvard
University for her coverage of Greece and the
Balkans as the Athens-based correspondent for the Guardian and the
Observer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Howarth ! ......Greek barbarity as depicted in his book called
the "Greek Adventure"

The truth which lies behind Greece's slanders against Turkey in the
presence of the world is that they aim to plunder
Aegean, Cypriot and Turkish lands. Yes! In the year 2000, Greece is
still living with the "Megali Idea" dream.

Now let us take a look at GREEK BARBARITY.

The Greeks cannot endure books that show them in a bad light. One of
the books that make them furious is the
"Greek Adventure" written by the English author David Howarth. Howarth
examined the 1821 revolution on the scene
of the event and wrote this book after examining one by one the books,
articles and journals written by British,
Italian, French and German officers and journalists after returning to
their respective countries.

The true events recorded in David Howarth's book "Greek Adventure" are
disgraceful and loathsome.

Those who read below the several paragraphs extracted from the book in
question, which divulges Greek barbarity
to the world in the clearest terms, will acquire ample knowledge about
what the Greeks are.

"In the summer of 1821, rebellion against the Turks erupted against
the Turks. The conflagration spread so rapidly
that no one can say where, why and by whom the first Turks were
killed. According to official records, the rebellion
was first led by the Church. The first cause of the war could be
described as a religious and sacred war.

Bishop Germanos of Patras called the populace to arms by raising his
cross. In those days, Patras was a prosperous
and beautiful city. It was open to the outside world and a large
number of Turks lived there along with the Greeks.
On hearing that a crowd of people from the mountains was approaching,
they withdrew to the city castle to defend
themselves. Even before Bishop Germanos and the insurgents arrived in
the city, Muslims and Greeks had begun
killing each other in the streets. The Greeks welcomed Germanos as a
saviour. The new arrivals had already begun
looting the homes of the Turks. The insurgents erected a cross in the
main square of the city with a ceremony. The
words uttered by their leaders were: "Peace to Christians, respect to
consuls and death to Turks!"

Events followed the same course in the Peloponnese. The Greeks had
risen all over the peninsula and murdered
their neighbours the Turks. They had done this perhaps in the name of
Christianity or freedom, but above all else
they had done it to despoil the Turks, to take revenge and because of
the Church's jealousy and personal
vengeance.

Once the massacres had begun they did not need to search for a reason.
They were all thirsty for blood, that was
why they were murdering. It was known that in the month of March of
that year, 25 thousand Muslim families were
living outside the cities in the Peloponnese and were occupied in
farming. In April, as the Easter celebrations were
continuing, not a single individual of these people was left alive.
The corpses were left among the flowers in the
fields, on soil warmed by the Spring sun. With the arrival of Summer
heat, they rotted away.

This frenzied genocide perpetrated by Germanos and the other Church
leaders had caused horror. Throughout the
war, other leaders joined Germanos and were madly applauded.

Kolokotronis was also a leader sought by the peasants and the nobles.
He had made his wealth selling horses to the
British army. In return for his services, the British had awarded him
the rank of major. When Kolokotronis joined the
uprising he was fifty years old. He commanded a 6,000-strong special
unit. His first battle ended in fiasco. His troops
were routed by a Turkish cavalry force of 500. Kolokotronis ran along
with his men, and he ran so fast that he left his
weapons behind.

It was a tradition of the Greeks to run when the course of battle
turned against them. The Greeks neither adopted a
battle order like the European armies nor fought face to face with
their enemy. The first thing they sought in order
fight was someplace behind which they could defend themselves; this
would generally be a boulder. And if they
couldn't find one, they would build themselves a small wall of rocks,
behind which they would seek safety, and then
start firing. As they fought, they shouted obscenities at their enemy,
uttered words of contempt at them and derided
them. As they fired, they held their weapons at the hip and as they
pulled the trigger they closed their eyes and
averted their faces. They could therefore kill only a few of their
enemies and when a random bullet killed someone,
they forgot they were in a battle and ran to the dead person to rob
him, emptied his pockets and then severed his
head from his body. The economic resources of the revolutionaries were
the robberies and plunders carried out by
their chiefs.

The city of Monenvasia fell five months after the outbreak of the
rebellion. This city and its castle were built on
sharps cliffs rising from the sea. The Turks living in the city; the
soldiers, state officials and traders and their families,
and the other Turks from the nearby villages, had sought refuge in the
castle. There was terrible starvation. Their
only food was sea moss and plants. They even sallied forth desperately
from the castle at night to capture and bring
back a corpse. They knew the tragedy awaiting them if they surrendered
to the Greeks. The Greek bandits were
waiting patiently to slaughter and rape the Turks and plunder their
properties. The Greeks declared to the Turks
besieged in the castle that if they surrendered their lives would be
spared. The priests even promised them that if
they surrendered they would be put on boats and sent to the Turkish
coast. Only 500 Turks were put on the boats.
These 500 Turks never set foot on any land and nothing has been heard
of their fate. As for the thousands of Turks
left in the castle, as soon as the gate was opened, they were set on
by the Greeks, were slaughtered and their
possessions plundered.

This is the truth about the victory announced in Europe as "The Greek
Miracle." It was not the triumph of Greek arms
and Christianity in the sense understood by the Europeans.

The second fortress to fall was that of Navarone. The Turks had been
promised that if they surrendered they would
be taken to the North African coast and set free. The Greek who made
the agreement boasted to an English colonel
that: "The agreement had a single copy and I have torn it up. No one
can claim any rights now." The Turks opened
the castle gates, either because they believed this promise or because
they had no other way out.

The Greeks immediately rushed in and massacred all the inhabitants of
the city numbering some two thousand. A
priest who witnessed the event later recounted how the women were
undressed, taken to the seashore where they
were raped then drowned; how children were beaten to death or killed
by knocking them against rocks. Greeks
greatly enjoyed cutting off the arms and legs of their victims.
Foreigners who visited Navarone months later found it
hard to endure the stench of corpses that permeated the whole city and
saw dogs, rats and crows feed on corpses
along the castle walls whose arms and legs had been cut off. As for
the Greeks, in order to demonstrate their power
to the visiting foreigners, they told them the numbers of the Turks
they had killed and how they had killed them; they
also presented the visitors with the Turkish boys and girls they were
keeping in the ruins. They had spared the lives
of these children, naked and mad with fear, to satisfy their sexual
appetites.

Some twenty Europeans witnessed the barbarity of the Greeks as they
attacked the fortress of Tripolitsa. One of them
was Colonel Thomas Gordon from Scotland. The Colonel was a sensible,
experienced and honest soldier and knew
Greek well. He found the events he witnessed at Tripolitsa so
horrifying that he wanted these disgraceful events to
be remembered to eternity. Even today, it would be better if the
stories the witnesses have recounted were not
repeated. I think saying this much should be sufficient. Within two
days not a soul was left alive in the city where ten
thousand Turks had been living. Most of them had been murdered by
cutting off their heads, arms and legs.
Following this massacre, thousands of Greeks returned to their
villages to hide the plunder which had by their
standards made them rich. The price of slaves had dropped so low that
no one wanted to own them. Because no
one had buried the dead, an unbearable stench permeated the whole
city, the drinking water was contaminated
and a cholera epidemic broke out.

"PHILOTIMO" is a Greek word. It means "Honourable" and it is an ethnic
title for the Greeks. The Greeks have, until
the recent past in any event, conducted their lives on two levels: one
of them being the normal world where we all
live, and the other the dream world of ideals they themselves created.
The first of them is the life of reality they lived
in, the other the world of dreams created by themselves. A Greek may
reject the facts and events known, seen and
believed by everyone and may insist that they had never been or
occurred. For example, it is this characteristic of
the Greeks which make them exalt and praise bandits and raise them to
the level of courageous knights, the
defenders of noble Greek traditions. In fact, they all know by
experience that the bandits and pirates they have
presented as national heroes were in reality mangy, filthy, insatiable
and hardened thieves. But the fact is that for
the Greek, these two aspects are of equal value.

When a Greek's "Philotimo" is in question, he can never accept the
facts as they are. As Lord Byron has said, "The
Greeks lack the capacity to comprehend reality. Every Greek has an
exaggerated opinion about Greeks."

A traveller like me who has an open mind cannot help but feel
admiration for them. This may be a result of
sensitivity. In the face of their amenability I felt myself indebted
to the Greeks. I thought about what the cause might
have been that had all of a sudden turned their ancestors into
monsters one hundred and fifty years ago. The
general explanation for this was the hatred they felt for the Turks
after living for centuries under Turkish oppression.
They had avenged themselves. But I think something else lies behind
the event. Turkish rule, as is known, was not
bad. Hatred cannot be an excuse for turning into monsters. I think the
cause is just the opposite of what it is thought
to be. Once the Greeks loved the Turks very much. They had been under
the influence of the Turks for 350 years.
The only thing that separated them from the Turks was the Church. In
spite of being Christians, the Greeks had
remained more oriental than western in their traditions and behaviour
. I don't think that even today they have rid
themselves of the influence of the Turks.

Only a handful of foreigners lived in Greece at the time of the 1821
revolution. Therefore Europe did not know what
was happening in Greece. Because the reports sent outside Greece were
written by enlightened romantics who had
not taken part in the war, they were penned to reflect the Greeks'
ideals. Therefore as the Europeans condemned
the Turks, they were unaware that it was the Greeks who were
perpetrating barbarities and had started the
slaughter. While all foreign countries recognised the Greeks as
citizens of the Ottoman Empire, the European public
applauded them as Christians heroically waging war against Muslims.

The reason for the European's siding with the Greeks was not only
their being Christian; it was also their history. In
those days, education was classically orientated. Language, philosophy
and ancient Greek arts were the foundation
of this education. Meanwhile, a group of people known as the
"Philhellenes" was guiding the Europeans' beliefs
about Greeks onto a wrong path. These Philhellenes comprised scholars
of classical literature, idealists, poets and
conservative and romantic politicians who had spread all over Europe.
They were spreading all around them a new
ethnic concept the Greeks had never even thought of. According to
them, the Greeks were the progeny of ancient
Greeks and maintained invisibly the intelligence and heroism of the
ancients.

For five whole years, the Philhellenes not only died for this
delusion, they also spent vast amounts of money. This
idea championed by the Philhellenes has never been correct. The
present day Greeks are as close to the ancient
Greeks as are the present day English to the Saxons. The blood of both
nations has been mixed and adulterated by
migrations and invasions over thousands of years. The ancestors of the
modern Greeks, even if we discount the
Turks, were the Romans, Albanians, Goths, Venetians and Slavs.

There is no doubt that the genius of ancient Greek forms the
foundation of European culture, but this genius was
virtually forgotten in Greece. The Greeks did not want to remember it.
When they looked back, they only saw the
Byzantine Empire and prided themselves on that.

The Greek revolutionaries' capture of the Turkish garrison in Corinth
is also a black stain on Greek history. The
fortress rose on the hills behind the city. The siege of the fortress
lasted a long time. The Turkish families who had
gathered in the castle were suffering horribly from hunger and thirst.
As in Navarone and Tripolitsa, the Greeks had
promised the Turks that if they surrendered the fortress, they would
be ferried across to the Anatolian coast. The
Turks, having no other option, accepted the offer and when they left
the castle to go to the coast, a new chapter was
added to the book of horrors. The Greeks, setting upon the defenceless
people, slaughtered everyone except the
young boys and girls. They did not harm the young ones because of
their evil lust and their intention of selling them.

This cruel, bloodthirsty genocide by the Greeks was also extremely
idiotic. As an Italian by the name of Brengeri
wrote in his memoirs, "One incident is sufficient to make one
understand a lot of things..." On his way to Corinth,
Brengeri comes across a murdered Turk. A little further on are the
man's wife and baby in a wretched condition. To
help the starving woman and her baby Brengeri collects a few pennies
from his companions and hands them to the
woman. Brengeri leaves the woman and he has not gone a hundred meters
along the road when he hears two
gunshots. When he looks back, he sees that Greek rowdies who had seen
him hand the money to the woman have
murdered the woman and her baby to rob her of the money.

Brengeri is one of several foreigners who witnessed the genocide in
Corinth. Brengeri watched with disgust as a
Turkish family of a man, his wife, two children and their servants,
who had been cornered, were murdered by the
Greeks in his presence. Before killing the children's mother, the
Greeks tore the veil off the woman's face to see
what she looked like. When Brengeri pled with the Greeks to release
the woman, he was told: "Give us fifty piastres
and we'll release her." Leaving his companions with the Greeks and the
woman, Brengeri went to a grocer he knew
and borrowed the fifty piastres to give to the Greeks. Then the Greeks
said: "We'll hand her to you but naked," and
stripped the woman naked before releasing her. Hundreds more Turkish
women were thus sold to foreigners by the
Greek bandits.

The Acropolis in Athens was the most renowned of the citadels in
Greece. For more than a year, 1150 Turks had
been forgotten and left to their fate among the ruins of this sacred
temple. No one bothered these wretched people
but for the "Greek Admirers" force set up by Europeans who admired the
Greeks. The "Philhellenes", who wanted to
capture the Temple of Acropolis, the treasure house of Greek
civilisation, from the Turks and hand it to the Greeks,
attacked the citadel one night but were routed. When the Turks looked
below from the Acropolis, they could see
people prepared to cut their throats with pleasure.

It was lack of water that defeated this handful of Turks whom no siege
or orderly assault had been able to vanquish.
The winter of 1821 had been unusually dry. The cisterns cut out of
rocks had dried up. By June, the Turks did not
have a drop of water to drink. Taking advantage of this, the Greeks
set down their conditions for the capitulation of
the citadel. What they demanded was that the Turks leave their arms
and half of their money to the Greeks; in return
they would be allowed to board ships and go to Turkey.

When on 22 June 1822 the gates of castle opened, those who came out
were not warriors but wretched people
begging, "A drop of water...a drop of water.." and trying to crawl.
Only 180 of them were men of an arms-bearing
age. The rest were made up of the elderly, the crippled and women and
children from neighbouring villages who
had sought refuge in the castle. There were no ships waiting to take
them away. The Turkish captives were put in
the courtyard of Hadrian's Temple on the slope of the Acropolis. No
one bothered them there for two days. Then the
attack of Greek rowdies began. They threw the Turks out of the places
where they had hidden and began to chase
them in the streets. 400 people, most of them made up of ill and weak
women, were murdered. Those who survived
were taken under protection by the foreign consuls in Athens.

In the ten-year period from 1821 to 1832, events continued to occur at
the same speed. Much Turkish blood was shed
on the Greek peninsula. The events might have been viewed from a
different perspective if the blood shed was the
blood of only the Turkish soldier. A soldier fights and he either
kills or dies, that is his duty. But if the shed blood
belongs to helpless people such as women, children and the elderly,
then it is called a "massacre" or "butchery" We
learn from foreign sources that the Greeks carried out not just
butcheries but mass butcheries. And again the same
sources write how the Greeks deceived world public opinion into
swallowing their butcheries as a triumph of Greece
and Christianity.

As Greece accuses the Macedonians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Turks of
barbarity, it should not forget that it owes
them a debt of blood.

The Greeks ruthlessly murdered tens of thousands of Turks, Bulgarians,
Albanians and Macedonians with the aim of
adding the Balkans and Anatolia to their borders. They may have
forgotten these murders that they committed, but
cannot delete the fact from the pages of history.

If we were to turn these pages and transfer Hellenism's mass murders
to our pages, we would have to write volumes
of books.

All the same, let us recall a few of them:

On 4th July 1913 during the 2nd Balkan War, the Greeks attacked
Kilkish. The city was defenceless with only women,
children and the elderly present. The first targets attacked by the
Greek artillery were the orphanage and the
hospital. The greater part of the children and patients in these two
buildings died in the shelling. Meanwhile, the
Greek troops who had occupied the city looted and burned the houses
and murdered their occupants, just like they
did in Anatolia, Macedonia, Albania and Cyprus.

During this occupation, they raided forty villages, burned down 4,725
houses and bayoneted to death 74 people,
eleven of them babies and most of the rest women and elderly people.

In the village of Akangeli they had occupied, the Greeks told some 400
villagers that they would transport them to
some other place, took them to the forest where they murdered them and
then stole their money and other
valuables.

In the Bulgarian villages they attacked, Greek troops not only
murdered anyone they came across but also raped the
women and stole their money. According to official records, in three
days Greek troops slaughtered 365 Bulgarians
and Muslim Turks.

In the presence of a group of foreign journalists, Greek troops
gathered two hundred Bulgarians of Macedonian
origin in a square where they murdered them, they then loaded the
corpses onto lorries and carried them to the
forest where they buried them in a mass.

Also included in the report prepared by the "Carnegie Foundation
Research Centre" on these mass murders
committed by the Greeks are also excerpts from letters sent to their
families by the Greek soldiers who had
committed these murders.

Here are a few of them:

· "Here in the villages we occupy, we kill all the Bulgarians, not
caring whether they are women or children."

· "Under the orders we have been given, we kill every Bulgarian we
come across and burn their houses."

· "The orders are to the effect that we should kill them by cutting
their throats and burn their houses. We obey these
orders."

· "We bayoneted every Bulgarian we captured and cut off his head."

· "Of the 1200 Bulgarians we captured in Negrita, only 41 who were in
prison stayed alive."

· "We did not leave a single Bulgarian alive in every place we passed
through; we exterminated them."

· "We gouged out the eyes of five Bulgarians we had captured, and they
still would not die."

The following excerpts, taken from books written by Greek officers who
in 1919 attempted to occupy Turkish lands,
reveal in very clear terms what the Greeks are in their own words.

Excerpts from Nikos Vasilikos's book "The War Diary":

· "Akcakoy is surrendering. A dreadful scene." P.72

· "The Turkish villages on our route are being subjected to real
disasters." P.74

· "All the Turkish villages on the plain are being burned by Greek
troops. With the passage of Greek forces through
these places, all sides are being illuminated with the light of
civilisation (flames)" p.108

· "All the villages are burning furiously. In order not to get
roasted, the occupants of the villages are running out of
their homes like rats." P.113

· "Afyon is being abandoned to the flames." P. 175

· "We are rapidly advancing to the village of Burnaz. The village was
set on fire amid the maledictions of the Turkish
ladies running about naked in the gardens to escape the fire."

· "We arrive at a town burning from one end to the other." P.187

· "Large numbers of Turks are being killed along the route. One of us
advancing in the van put the muzzle of his
weapon against the Turk's neck and when he fired, the Turk's head flew
fifteen meters away." P.181

N.VASILIKOS, "Dairy", p.57

"We are given the task of guards in the transportation of 150 Turkish
captives. All along the route, the cavalry troops
are tormenting the captives; some of them are striking the captives
with rifle butts and whips. The captives' attempts
to protect themselves by hiding in each other's arms present a
dreadful picture. It is as if they are trying to turn into a
single body. Many of them pass out as we advance and we make the
others carry the ones that faint."

P.APOSTOLIDES: We read the following lines in pages 20-21 of his book
"MY Recollections 1900-1969".

"The elderly, the women and children had hidden in the mosque. Some of
our soldiers became aware of this.
Because they lacked courage like all worthless people, they were
afraid of the crowd and therefore did not dare
force the door of the mosque to rape the women. They started a fire by
throwing dry grass they had collected from
here and there through the windows. The people inside began to come
out, choking with the smoke. It was then that
those worthless wretches aimed at the women, the children and the
elderly and murdered them. Some others
related to me how they had seen the application of another method of
infernal torture. Very large nails were driven
into the ground. The plaited hair of the women were passed around
these nails, so that the women, unable to move,
were raped in groups.

An instance of Greek barbarity witnessed by historian Arnold Toynbee
is told on page 298 of his book "The Western
Problem".

"At 13.00 on Friday, the 24th of June 1921, three days before the
Greeks evacuated Izmit, the men of two Turkish
quarters called Bahcecesme and Tepekhane were taken to the cemetery
and shot in groups. I was present when on
29th June two of the graves were opened. I saw that the arms of the
corpses were tied behind them. Some 60
corpses were estimated to be in those graves. A total of around 300
people were missing."

The Greek has shown his barbarity everywhere he has gone, as it
happened in Cyprus in 1974...

According to an official report published in the British "The
Guardian" newspaper on 2nd April 1988, 25 Turks in
hospital went missing from their hospital beds during the July 1974
events. According to the report prepared on the
findings of British intelligence officer Lieutenant Martin Packard,
the Turkish patients had their throats cut by the
Greek Cypriot nurses, their corpses were loaded onto a lorry and taken
to a farm in the north of the city, where their
flesh was separated from their bones, ground in a mincing machine and
thrown into the sewers.

Another instance is the horrifying event Salahi Hilal, who is still
alive today, went through. This is how Salahi Hilal,
whose flesh was cut with a knife and his blood sucked, relates Greek
cruelty:

"The Greeks and Greek Cypriots who had captured me began to cut my
arms and the fleshy parts of my shoulders
with the daggers they had pulled from their belts. Meanwhile a Greek
officer approached them and asked the Greek
Cypriots, "Is there anyone among you who hasn't drunk Turkish blood?"
Some of them shouted, "We haven't,"
whereupon ten to fifteen people along with the Greek officer began
licking the blood oozing from the cuts on my
arms and shoulders. I was about to pass out when I was taken outside,
I saw a friend of mine captive in their hands.
His legs and arms were tied. Then a Greek Cypriot pulled the safety
pin from the grenade he had taken from his belt
and threw the bomb at the Turkish soldier. My poor friend was blown to
pieces. I didn't want to live any more."

The Tsamourian Albanians whose lands were occupied by Greeks should
not be forgotten either.

The genocide movement whose aim was the ethnic cleansing of the
Tsamourian Albanians began on 27th June
1944. 2900 young and elderly men, 214 women and 96 children were
murdered by the EDES bands commanded by
General Napoleon ZERVAS; 745 women were raped, 76 women abducted, 32
children under the age of three put to
the sword, 68 villages razed to the ground and 5800 houses and places
of worship destroyed.

The Greek has always kept low in the presence of the powerful but put
on a show of strength only in the presence of
the weak.

This is the true blood-smeared face of the Greeks who think that they
will gain something by deceiving the world
with lies in order to present the Turks as "Barbarians".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BORZA
Historian and Professor Eugene Borza who is credited as "Macedonian
specialist" by the American Philological
Association, and who have done extensive studies regarding the
ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, had also
presented in-depth analysis on the modern Greek position which claims
that the ancient Macedonians "were Greek".
In his In the Shadow of Olympus (p.91-92) Borza writes:

"Thus, long before there was a sufficient ancient evidence to argue
about the ethnic identity--as revealed by
language--of the ancient Macedonians, there emerged a "Greek" position
claiming that the Macedonian language
was Greek, and that thus the inhabitants were Greek."

The modern Greeks have therefore, developed a position that the
Macedonians were Greek, long before there was
sufficient ancient evidence to argue about their ethnicity. Yet
although modern historiography had long abandoned
this prematurely established "Greek" position, modern Greeks are still
its most zealous defenders despite the
overwhelming evidence available today, which overwhelmingly shows that
the Macedonians were not Greeks but a
distinct nation. Borza continues:

"For example, recent work describes the funerary stelae found in the
tumulus covering the royal tombs at Vergina.
These stelae date from the fourth and early third centuries, and the
preponderance of names are Greek… The
excavator of Vergina, Manolis Andronikos, in a useful summary of the
epigraphic evidence, writes: "In the most

unambivalent way this evidence confirms the opinion of those
historians who maintain that the Macedonians were a
Greek tribe, like all the others who lived on Greek territory, and
shows that the theory that they were of Illyrian or
Thracian descent and were hellenized by Philip and Alexander rests on

no objective criteria." Manolis Andronikos
Vergina:The Royal Tombs, 83-85."

Here is Borza’s answer to the Greek archeologist Manolis Andronikos:

"This argument is true enough only as far as it goes. It neglects that
the hellenization of the Macedonians might
have occurred earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander, and can
not therefore serve as a means of proving the
Macedonians were a Greek tribe."

Indeed, not only Andronakis was obviously wrong to conclude that the
Macedonians were Greek, but also notice
how the Greek archeologist does not point that the Macedonians might
have been a separate nation. Instead he
prefers to call it if not Greek, either Illyrian or Thracian, two
ancient nations that can not be associated with the
Balkans politics surrounding Greece, resulted from the 1913 partition
of Macedonia (see below). Also notice how
Andronikos used the term "like all the others who lived on Greek
territory". It’s like he wants to convince the reader
that Macedonia has always been a "Greek territory", which is exactly
what he uses as a base for his inaccurate
conclusion.

Another Greek writer, Michael Sakellariou, in his Macedonia 4000 years
of Greek History, 44-63 (quite questionable
of accuracy title to begin with), "proves" that the "Macedonians were
Greek" although he purposely avoided all
evidence that does not suit such conclusion. Borza has a line for him
as well:

"It is indicative of the strength of Badian’s case that his critics
have succeeded only in nit-picking: e.g., Sakellariou,
Macedonia, 534-35 nn. 52.53" (Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p.96.)

Borza is talking about Ernst Badian from Harvard University who in his
extensive research Greeks and Macedonians
presented all evidence and soundly concluded that the Macedonians were
distinct nation from the Greeks, which
neither considered themselves to be Greeks nor were considered by the
Greeks to be Greek. That is precisely what
the Greek writer Sakellariou had completely and purposely avoided, and
lacking any base for a well-balanced
criticism, choused instead to nit-pick Badian's argument.

We can see a trend among the Greek scholars (Andronicos, Martis,
Daskalakis, Kallaris, and Sakellariou) who
desperately want to show the world that the Macedonians "were Greeks",
though unsuccessfully. Martis' Falsification
of Macedonian History was handed out to the foreign journalists in
Greece and translated into many languages.
Sakellariou’s Macedonia 4000 years of Greek History was even donated
for free to the libraries throughout the United
States. This exposes a well-developed propaganda strategy, to
influence all those unaware that the "Macedonians
were Greek." Yet the Greeks are showing the world that the
"Macedonians were Greek" by avoiding all ancient and
modern evidence that does not suit their purpose, and in that process
they try to pass books so full of historical errors
and distortions:

"The fullest statement of the "Greek" position, and also the most
detailed study of the Macedonian language, is by
Kallaris, Les anciens Macidoniens, esp. 2: 488-531, in which alleged
Greek elements in the Macedonian language
are examined exhaustively. A more chauvinistic (and less persuasive)
point of view can be found in Daskalakis,
Hellenism, esp. pts. 2. and 3. The most blatant account is that of
Martis (The Falsification of Macedonian History).
This book, written by a former Minister for Northern Greece, is an
polemical anti-Yugoslav tract so full of historical
errors and distortions that the prize awarded it by the Academy of
Athens serves only to reduce confidence in the
scientific judgment of that venerable society of scholars. The most
sensible and scholarly Greek position is that laid
out by Sakellariou, in Macedonia, 44-63. Lest it seem, however, that
the "Greek" position is held only by modem
Greeks" - (Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p.91)

It is ironical that the book of the former Greek politician Nicolas
Martis is named The Falsification of Macedonian
History, when in fact he is the one who is falsifying the history of
Macedonia with his historical errors and distortions.
It is worrisome that the students of the countries who have nothing to
do with the modern Greek politics, must be
exposed to the Greek historical fabrications against one of the most
dynamic powers of the ancient times - the
Macedonians. But why is Greece doing this, what is behind it, why do
they steal the history of the ancient
Macedonians, and attempt to appropriate it as theirs?

The answer lays in the year of 1913 when Macedonia was partitioned
after the Balkan wars and Greece swallowed
the biggest part - 51%. There was nothing in Macedonia then that
connected that land with Greece, apart from the
small 10% Greek minority scattered in southern Macedonia among the
overwhelming majority of Macedonians who
lived throughout the country (for complete statistical evidence see
the "Macedonian-Greek Conflict"). Since in 1913 it
acquired foreign territory populated by non-Greeks, Greece had to
provide a link that would justify its claim on that
half of Macedonia. That is exactly why the Greeks claim that the
ancient Macedonians "were Greek", so that if in
ancient times there was a Greek tribe (Macedonians) living in
Macedonia, then that land therefore is Greek (just like
Andronikos points above). What is not disputable however, is that
since 1913 till today, the modern Greek state
continues to oppress the ethnic Macedonians who now find themselves
living in Greece (see Human Rights Watch,
Amnesty International evidenced in the "Macedonians in Greece"). The
other northern part of Macedonia, today’s
Republic of Macedonia, broke out of Yugoslavia and became independent
in 1991. That brought addition fuel to the
Greek nationalists who are afraid now that one part of the ethnic
Macedonian nation is independent, the partition of
1913 can be seen as illegal, which could lead to eventual loss of
their Greek Macedonian part and subsequent
reunification of one Macedonia. That is exactly why they claim that
there is no modern Macedonian nation, not in
Greece not anywhere, and continue to deny the basic human rights of
their Macedonian minority through politics
filled with paranoia, politics which without the revision of the
ancient history could not breathe.

tom

unread,

Jan 30, 2003, 11:54:40 PM1/30/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E39C181...@sympatico.ca...

> Panajoti here is the irrefutable evidence for you.
> Lets get some irrefutable evidence. Forget the books what, when, where,
> what Herodotus said about the king of Macedonia, Alexander the Great
> 2,000 years ago. Ever since the Greek occupation in Aegean Macedonia
> what the Greeks have done to me! They changed my first and last names
> from Macedonian to Greek,

No mate you changed it from Greek Traianos to stupid traiche

June R Harton

unread,

Jan 31, 2003, 3:15:52 AM1/31/03

to

"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:b13gbh$6k1$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Junebugger, shut your loo!

Ah, how you hate when truth's posted!

----- Original Message -----
From: "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net>

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: The greek moronic claims
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
news:b11one$55g$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
> Listen well, propagandist for unlike you, I don't have time for more long,
> stupid replies of yours.>
> Firstly, I have the books of Arrian and Polibius and have read them, thus
>I
> know everyting there is to know about both of them. There is no need for
> your stupid "patronage".

Ah, but you have never confronted truth, have you, Bulgarian?!

> You have clearly missed the context of my message. It is not what
Polibius
> says/feels personally (that all falls in the sphere of daily
> politics/alliances), but his descriptions, such as the conference between
> Flamininus (and the Greeks) and Philip V (the Macedonians), the subsequent
> decree and everything associated with these events. It is here where it is
> abundantly clear that the Macedonians and the Romans, as well, considered
> the Greeks as separate entities/nations.
>
> Regarding what Arrian has written, whichever way you wish to twist it,
greek
> propagandist, it still remains "racial rivalry between the Greeks and the
> Macedonians". There is nothing any greek nationalist propagandist can do
to
> discredit it now, more than two milleniums after it has been recorded, for
> that is exactly what it was then.

*All* your above nonsense is shown as nonsense right here:

----- Original Message -----
From: "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: On the alleged "greekness" of the Ancient Macedonians

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

Ilinden

unread,

Jan 31, 2003, 8:48:06 AM1/31/03

to

Tom Grkoman my parents don't speak Grekika why they have to call me with
another name.Your parents talk to you in Macedonian not Grekika because
Macedonian is the first language for them, bre drvo skapano.
Ilinden

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Jan 31, 2003, 9:01:06 AM1/31/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Panajoti here is the irrefutable evidence for you.
> Lets get some irrefutable evidence. Forget the books what, when, where,
> what Herodotus said about the king of Macedonia, Alexander the Great
> 2,000 years ago. Ever since the Greek occupation in Aegean Macedonia

>........................................
> Ilinden the Macedonian

Yeaaa, forget everything because there is no other way for you to pass as
Macedonian !!
Macedonians still speaking Greek and spread Greek language and Civilization to
the World just like their ancestors were always doing. If you have to be
Macedonian just be like them and us.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yannis the Macedonian

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Jan 31, 2003, 8:56:32 AM1/31/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> PANAJOTI YOU ARE FULL OF PROPAGANDA.
> Darius III knew that Macedonia was not Hellas.The Macedonian language

.......................................
> Ilinden the SlavoSkopian

In contrary Persian Kings knew very well that Macedonians were Greeks.
In an inscription of -513, now in Teheran's museum, Persian King states that
he occupy a European land
that he names "Yauna Takabara". Who were the European Yauna with takabara (
buckler like a helmet )
Persians occupied at -513 ??. Historians answered unanimously : Macedonians !!
So, wanted it or not, Macedonians were always Ionians = Greeks.
But why "yauna" and not Greeks ?? Because the first Greeks that Persians met
were the Ionians. So if there was a big Civilization to the north of Greece
then Greeks would have a fourth ethnic name: Macedonians.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yannis the Macedonian

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Jan 31, 2003, 9:11:43 AM1/31/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

PANAJOTI YOUR COMMENT PLEASE. Macedonian village names
THE NAMES OF 804 MACEDONIAN VILLAGES IN AEGEAN
MACEDONIA,
occupied by Greece in 1912, that have forcedly been changed from 1926
and forward.
Submitted by Lena Jankovski and Alex Bakratcheff

..................................................

A SlavoSkopian to answer please !!
Which would be the names a Macedonian likes ??
Amyntaion or Sorovic, Arnissa or Ostrovo, Vevi or Banitsa, Ptolemais or
Kajlar, Olympias or Rakita, Thessaloniki or Solun, Idomeni or Gevgelja ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Zhivko Apostolovski

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Jan 31, 2003, 5:38:58 PM1/31/03

to

Dear Panayotis,

You believe, what you wish to beieve ( I will try to give you the references
to the film in question), but here (below) is another bit of info for you,
WHICH CLEARLY INDICATES that MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS.

Zhivko

PS What you should detest are the greek "parrots" like "Harton", "Yannis"
(and the countless others like them), or the loony tune racist "Dorian",
Panayotis.

Arrian: Enjoy!

ANABASIS OF ALEXANDER
[326 B.C.]

"..back with his force to the cities which had come over, to set garrisons
in them while Alexander himself advanced with his army to the Hyphasis, to
subdue the lndians beyond as well. For he thought there could be no end of
the war as long as any enemy was left.

25. The country beyond the Hyphasis was reported to be fertile, and the
inhabitants good farmers and excellent fighting men, with their affairs
under orderly government, for the masses were ruled by the best men, who did
not exercise leadership unfairly. These people also had a far greater number
of elephants than the other Indians, and the best for size and courage. [2]
This report stirred Alexander to a desire for further advance; but the
Macedonians' spirits were flagging by now, as they saw the king taking one
hard and dangerous task after another; meetings took place in the camp among
men who complained of their own plight - they were the most moderate kind -
or who flatly denied that they would follow Alexander's leadership any
farther. When Alexander heard of this, before indiscipline and despair grew
worse among the troops, he summoned the regimental commanders and addressed
them thus [n1]

[3] 'I observe that you, MACEDONIANS and ALLIES, [n2] are not following me
into dangers any longer with your spirit. I have summoned you together,
either to persuade you to go forward, or to be persuaded by you to turn
back. If indeed you have any fault to find with the exertions you have
hitherto endured,. and with me as your leader, there is no object in my
speaking further. [4] If, however, it is through these exertions that Ionia
is now in our hands, and the Hellespont, both Phrygian peoples, the
Cappadocians, Paphlagonians, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Pamphylia,
Phoenicia, Egypt, with the Greek part of Libya, [n3] part of Arabia, Syria,
both the 'hollow' land and that between the rivers, Babylonia, the Susian
[5] nation, the Persians and Medes, with all the nations subject to Persia
and Media, and those which were not, [n4] the regions beyond the Caspian
gates, beyond the Caucasus, on the other side of the Tanais, Bactrians,
Hyrcanians, the Hyrcanian Sea; if we have driven the Scythians into the
desert [n5]; if, besides all this, it is through territory now our own that
the Indus flows, and the Hydaspes, the Acesines, and the Hydraotes, why do
you hesitate to add the Hyphasis and the peoples beyond the Hyphasis to this
MACEDONIAN EMPIRE of ours?

[6] Do you fear lest other barbarians may yet withstand your approach? Why,
some of them come over readily, some are captured in flight, some desert
their country and leave it vacant for us; this land we have indeed annexed
to our allies and those who have voluntarily come over to us.

26. 'For my part, I set no limit to exertions for a man of noble spirit,
save that the exertions themselves should lead to deeds of prowess. Yet if
any one longs to hear what will be the limit of the actual fighting, he
should understand that there remains no great stretch of land before us up
to the river Ganges [n1] and the eastern sea.

This sea, I assure you, will prove to be joined to the Hyrcanian sea [n2];
for the great sea encircles all the land. And it will be for me [2] to show
MACEDONIANS and ALLIES alike that the Indian gulf [Arabian Sea] forms but
one stretch of water with the Persian gulf, and the Hyrcanian Sea with the
Indian gulf. From the Persian gulf our fleet shall sail round to Libya, as
far as the Pillars of Heracles [Straits of Gibraltar]; from the Pillars all
the interior of Libya then becomes ours, just as Asia is in fact becoming
ours in its entirety, and the boundaries of our Empire here are becoming
those which God set for the whole continent. [n3] But if we flinch now,
there [3] will be many warlike races left behind on the far side of the
Hyphasis up to the Eastern Sea, and many too stretching from these to the
Hyrcanian Sea to the north, and the Scythian tribes not far from these, so
that there is reason to fear that if we turn back, even our present
possessions, whic h are not held securely, may be stirred to revolt by those
who are not yet under our control. Then our numerous exertions [4] will
indeed be profitless, or we shall have to start again with fresh exertions
and dangers. But you must persevere, MACEDONIANS and ALLIES. Exertions and
dangers are the price of deeds of prowess, and it is sweet for men to live
bravely, and die leaving behind them immortal renown. Or do you not know
that it 5 was not by remaining in Tiryns or in Argos or even in the
Peloponnese or Thebes that our ancestor attained such renown that from a man
he became, or was held, a god? Even Dionysus, a more delicate god than
Heracles, had not a few labours to perform.

And yet we have actually passed beyond Nysa and taken the rock Aornos, which
Heracles could not take.[n4] [6]Let it be your task to add what yet remains
of Asia to the possessions already won, a small conquest in comparison. For
that matter what great or noble success could we ourselves have achieved,
had we sat still in MACEDONIA and thought it enough to guard our own home
without effort, merely keeping in check the Thracians on our borders or
Illyrians or Triballians, or those GREEKS too, who were not well disposed to
us [n5]?

[7] 'Now if the exertions and dangers had been yours, and I had personally
escaped them, while issuing commands as your leader, it would not have been
unreasonable for you to have grown weary in spirit before me, when you alone
were taking part in the exertions, while the prizes they procured went to
others; but as it is, we undergo the exertions in common, our share in the
dangers is equal, and the prizes are open to all alike. For the land is
yours; it is you [8] who are its satraps [n6]; the greater part of the
treasure is now coming to you, and, when we overrun all Asia, then by Heaven
I will not merely satisfy you, but will surpass the utmost hope of good
things each man has, I will send all who desire to go home back to their own
country or will myself lead them back, while those who remain behind I shall
make the envy of those who depart.'

27. After Alexander had spoken these words or in this sense, for a long time
there was silence; no one either dared to oppose the King on the spur of the
moment, or was yet willing to agree.

In this interval Alexander often invited any who wished to speak, if he
really held opposite views to those he had expressed himself; yet even so
silence reigned long, and only after some time Coenus, Polemocrates' son,
plucked up his courage and spoke thus [n1]:

[2] 'Seeing that you, Sire, do not yourself desire to lead the MACEDONIANS
as a dictator, but say that you will lead them by persuasion, and that, if
they persuade you, you will not coerce them, I shall speak not on behalf of
those here present among us, who are held in honour beyond the rest and have
mostly already received the prizes of our exertions, and, in virtue of our
eminence in comparison with the rest, are zealous to serve you in every way,
but on behalf of the majority in the army. [3] And even in their cause I
shall not speak to gratify them, but say what I consider useful to yourself
in present circumstances and most conducive to safety for the future. My age
entitles me not to conceal the views I think best and so does the superior
rank you have granted me, and the unhesitating daring I have shown up to now
in exertions and dangers.

[4] 'The successes achieved by you as our leader and by those who set out
with you from our homes have been so numerous and splendid that for that
very reason I think it more in our interest to set some limit to exertions
and dangers. Surely you see yourself how many MACEDONIANS and greeks we were
when we set forth with you, and how many survive. [5] The Thessalians you
sent straight home from Bactria, [n2] observing that they had little heart
left for further exertions, and you were right.

As for the other GREEKS, some have been settled in the cities you have
founded, and even they do not remain there entirely of their own free will
[n3]; others are still sharing in your exertions and dangers, but they and
the Macedonian forces have lost part of their number in battle; others have
been invalided from wounds, and have been left behind in different parts of
Asia; but [6] most have died of sickness, and of all that host few survive,
and even they no longer enjoy their bodily strength, while their spirit is
far more wearied out. One and all, they long to see their parents, if they
are still alive, their wives and children, and indeed their own homeland,
which they may pardonably long to look on once more, for with the honour of
the provision you have made for them, they will return great and wealthy,
instead of being humble and poor. [7] It is not for you now to be a leader
of unwilling troops. For you will no longer find men meeting dangers as they
once did, wh en it is not by their own choice that they engage in conflicts.
But if it please you, return in person to your own country, look on your own
mother, settle the affairs of the Greeks and, after bringing these
victories, numerous and splendid, to your father's house, then indeed begin
again and fit out another expedition, if you wish, against the very same
Indian peoples settled in the east or, if you wish, one to the Euxine
[Black] Sea, or alternatively against Carthage and the part of Libya beyond
Carthage[n4] [8] These decisions it will then be for you to take as leader,
but your followers will be other MACEDONIANS, other GREEKS, young men in
place of old, men who are fresh and not worn out, who will have no immediate
fear of war, having no experience of it, and whose warlike ardour will be
excited by their hopes of the future; it is likely that they will follow you
with all the more enthusiasm, because they see the partners in your earlier
exertions and dangers returned to their own lands and raised from poverty to
riches and from obscurity to high renown. [9] Nothing, Sire, is so
unquestionably good as a sound mind in good fortune and, though with you as
commander and such an army to lead our enemies can inspire no fear, the
strokes of divine power are beyond the foresight and therefore beyond the
precautions of human beings.'

28. After Coenus had spoken in this way, it is said that his speech produced
uproar among the audience and that many even shed tears, still further proof
that their minds did not go with further dangers and that what they wanted
was to return home, and of the joy with which they would hail a retreat. At
the time Alexander, irritated at Coenus' freedom of language and at the
timidity of the other officers, dismissed the conference, but next day he
convened the same men [2] once more and angrily affirmed that he himself was
going on, but that he would compel no MACEDONIAN to go with him against his
will; he would have volunteers as followers of their king. As for those who
wished to return home, they might do so, and might tell it abroad to their
friends that they had come back, leaving their king surrounded by enemies.'
[n1]

[3] After these words it is said that he went back to his tent and did not
admit even any of the Companions that day nor till the third day after,[n2]
waiting to see if any change of mind on the part of the MACEDONIANS and
ALLIES, such as often occurs in a crowd of soldiers, would come over them
and make them easier to persuade. [4] But when dead silence again persisted
in the camp and it was clear that the men resented his anger but were not at
all converted by it, Ptolemy, son of Lagus, tells us that then he none the
less offered sacrifices with a view to crossing the river, but that as he
sacrificed the victims proved unfavourable. [5] Then he called together the
eldest of the Companions and especially his particular friends and, since
everything was now contributing to make him withdraw, he proclaimed openly
to the army that he had decided to turn back.

29. They shouted in the way a heterogeneous crowd would do in joy, and most
of them began to weep; others drew near the royal tent and invoked blessings
on Alexander, since he had submitted to defeat at their hands alone. Then he
divided the army into twelve parts and ordered each to set up an altar as
high as the greatest towers, and in breadth even greater than towers would
be, as thank-offerings to the gods who had brought him so far as a
conqueror, and as memorials of his own exertions.[n1]

[2] When the altars had been built for him, he performed the customary
sacrifices on them, hand held athletic and equestrian games. He added the
territory as far as the river Hyphasis to Porus' dominion, [n2] and he
himself began to return towards the Hydraotes.

"Panayiotis" <pitt...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:b1cao0$d5s$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...

June R Harton

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Feb 1, 2003, 1:42:11 AM2/1/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E39B83D...@sympatico.ca...

> PANAJOTI YOU ARE FULL OF PROPAGANDA.

> The operative word is "age-old distinction" between Macedonians
> and Hellenes.

None existed, Bulgarian, as I have shown.

>"The reason for
> including Macedonia as part of a larger Hellas was designed to justify
> Macedonian participation in the so called war of revenge.

Silly, the Herodotos text showed that the the Persoians regarded
Macedonia as part of Greece.

You got it backwards as usual.
> Ilinden the Macedonian

No, Bulgarian, you are a Bulgarian, nothing more and nothing less:

You only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority, like
yourself, are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to
'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."

And here:

Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).

And here:

For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...

Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:

And finally here

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid

So, Bulgarian, no matter how hard you resist truth it shall always
be in your future as it was in your past.

from: Spirit of Truth

June R Harton

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Feb 1, 2003, 1:42:12 AM2/1/03

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"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E3A7E96...@sympatico.ca...

> Tom Grkoman my parents don't speak Grekika why they have to call me >with
> another name.Your parents talk to you in Macedonian not Grekika because
> Macedonian is the first language for them, bre drvo skapano.
> Ilinden

What has a Greek dialect in the real Macedonia got to do with you,
Bulgarian?

June R Harton

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Feb 1, 2003, 1:48:04 AM2/1/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b1ervn$5s1$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

> Dear Panayotis,
> You believe, what you wish to beieve ( I will try to give you the
references
> to the film in question), but here (below) is another bit of info for you,
> WHICH CLEARLY INDICATES that MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS.

As usual your falsehoods and lack of discernment shall herewith be exposed,
Bulgarian.

> Zhivko
> PS What you should detest are the greek "parrots" like "Harton", "Yannis"
> (and the countless others like them), or the loony tune racist "Dorian",
> Panayotis.

Lies, will not save you from truth, Bulgarian.

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated.

[n2] are not following me
> into dangers any longer with your spirit. I have summoned you together,
> either to persuade you to go forward, or to be persuaded by you to turn
> back. If indeed you have any fault to find with the exertions you have
> hitherto endured,. and with me as your leader, there is no object in my
> speaking further. [4] If, however, it is through these exertions that
Ionia
> is now in our hands, and the Hellespont, both Phrygian peoples, the
> Cappadocians, Paphlagonians, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Pamphylia,
> Phoenicia, Egypt, with the Greek part of Libya, [n3] part of Arabia,
Syria,
> both the 'hollow' land and that between the rivers, Babylonia, the Susian
> [5] nation, the Persians and Medes, with all the nations subject to Persia
> and Media, and those which were not, [n4] the regions beyond the Caspian
> gates, beyond the Caucasus, on the other side of the Tanais, Bactrians,
> Hyrcanians, the Hyrcanian Sea; if we have driven the Scythians into the
> desert [n5]; if, besides all this, it is through territory now our own
that
> the Indus flows, and the Hydaspes, the Acesines, and the Hydraotes, why do
> you hesitate to add the Hyphasis and the peoples beyond the Hyphasis to
this
> MACEDONIAN EMPIRE of ours?

Of course, Macedonian Greek empire indicated.

> [6] Do you fear lest other barbarians may yet withstand your approach?
Why,
> some of them come over readily, some are captured in flight, some desert
> their country and leave it vacant for us; this land we have indeed annexed
> to our allies and those who have voluntarily come over to us.
>
> 26. 'For my part, I set no limit to exertions for a man of noble spirit,
> save that the exertions themselves should lead to deeds of prowess. Yet if
> any one longs to hear what will be the limit of the actual fighting, he
> should understand that there remains no great stretch of land before us up
> to the river Ganges [n1] and the eastern sea.
>
> This sea, I assure you, will prove to be joined to the Hyrcanian sea [n2];
> for the great sea encircles all the land. And it will be for me [2] to
show
> MACEDONIANS and ALLIES

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated

> alike that the Indian gulf [Arabian Sea] forms but
> one stretch of water with the Persian gulf, and the Hyrcanian Sea with the
> Indian gulf. From the Persian gulf our fleet shall sail round to Libya, as
> far as the Pillars of Heracles [Straits of Gibraltar]; from the Pillars
all
> the interior of Libya then becomes ours, just as Asia is in fact becoming
> ours in its entirety, and the boundaries of our Empire here are becoming
> those which God set for the whole continent. [n3] But if we flinch now,
> there [3] will be many warlike races left behind on the far side of the
> Hyphasis up to the Eastern Sea, and many too stretching from these to the
> Hyrcanian Sea to the north, and the Scythian tribes not far from these, so
> that there is reason to fear that if we turn back, even our present
> possessions, whic h are not held securely, may be stirred to revolt by
those
> who are not yet under our control. Then our numerous exertions [4] will
> indeed be profitless, or we shall have to start again with fresh exertions
> and dangers. But you must persevere, MACEDONIANS and ALLIES.

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated.

> Exertions and
> dangers are the price of deeds of prowess, and it is sweet for men to live
> bravely, and die leaving behind them immortal renown. Or do you not know
> that it 5 was not by remaining in Tiryns or in Argos or even in the
> Peloponnese or Thebes that our ancestor attained such renown that
> from a man he became, or was held, a god? Even Dionysus, a more
> delicate god than Heracles, had not a few labours to perform.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY, BULGARIAN? It indicates right there that Arrian
and they identified the Macedonians as Greeks and also indicates that they
were Greek speaking.

snip> rest of which would shows exactly the same thing>

And look at what else he said which completely and utterly destrys your
false data:

"...he (Alexandros III) sent to Athens 300 Persian panoplies, which he
devoted to Athena, and ordered to write on them: Alexandros son of Philippos
and the Hellenes, except the Lakedaimonians, from the barbarian inhabitants
of Asia..."
Arrianos I (Anabasis) 16, 7
Historian, 95-175AD

"...Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great
harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader
of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which
I took from you..."
Arrianos II (Anabasis) 14, 4
Historian, 95-175AD

Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoudest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."

from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek

George S. Tsapanos

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Feb 1, 2003, 7:23:12 AM2/1/03

to

the SKOPIAN zhivko wrote:

>Dear Panayotis,
>
>You believe, what you wish to beieve ( I will try to give you the reference>to

the film in question), but here (below) is another bit of info for you,>WHICH
CLEARLY INDICATES that MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS.>
>Zhivko>

SKOPIAN
Indeed the SKOPIAN kind of "Macedonians" are not Greeks.
And we want them to STAY that way.
Intermingle your legs with the ALBANIANS, the TURKS, the SRBCI, and not to
forget the.............VUGARI.

You got it?

Stay away from our lands and our people.

We didn't want you and you didn't make it for 1500 years, don't you understand
that we don't like you?

You are SLAVS, TATAROMOGGOLIANS and ALBANIANS.

We are HELLENES.

Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".

++

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Feb 3, 2003, 10:24:25 AM2/3/03

to

Now, George,

Who, after reading such racist garbage, would be encouraged to be a philhellene?
If for nothing else than making Greeks look like a pen full of racist pigs, you
might want to consider that your assumption that people reading here might actually
like and be friends with those Serbs, Albanians and Turks you deride, is incorrect.
One thing I have noticed among Macedonians is a kind of egalitarian live and let
live atittude, only partly damaged by the war, an attitude that does not generate
or engender racism. There is nothing, after all, to be gained from racism, and much
to be gained from cooperation.

As for not "making it" in the last 1500 years, that is open to interpretation.

Panayiotis

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Feb 3, 2003, 8:50:23 PM2/3/03

to

Dear Ilinden,
Please, give me a few more days to study your interesting message (Names of
villages).
1. When I asked you to quote your sources, I meant serious ones. That is why
I ignore the latter part of it.
2. As an interim reply, get this: there was an exchange of populations
between Greece and Turkey (after 1922) and Greece and Bulgaria (in 1925).
How would you feel, if you were a Greek living in a village empty of Turks
or Bulgarians, and the name of the village was Turkish or Slav? Wouldn't you
give it a Greek name?
3. How many villages in FYROM and Bulgaria changed their names to Slav?
Philippoupolis to Plovdiv! I find it very natural.
4. If you acquired or inherited a piece of land, wouldn't you try to protect
it from your neighbors or relatives. That is what ALL the Balkan states did.
Quite natural and logical.
Panayiotis

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E39E925...@sympatico.ca...

Ilinden

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:01:09 PM2/3/03

to

Panajoti are you afraid to say Macedonian names , how about the Italian names
are you going to say the Latin names instead of the Italians?
Plovdiv: The name of the city in Bulgaria is of Thracian origin, and
represents Pulpudava,. The Hellenes later changed the Thracian name as
Philippopolis. The Romans, however, called the settlement Trimontium,
'three hills;.
Ilinden the Macedonian

George S. Tsapanos

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:30:51 PM2/3/03

to

Galina wrote:

>Now, George,
>
>Who, after reading such racist garbage, would be encouraged to be a
>philhellene?
>If for nothing else than making Greeks look like a pen full of racist pigs,
>you
>might want to consider that your assumption that people reading here might
>actually
>like and be friends with those Serbs, Albanians and Turks you deride, is
>incorrect.
>One thing I have noticed among Macedonians is a kind of egalitarian live and
>let
>live atittude, only partly damaged by the war, an attitude that does not
>generate
>or engender racism. There is nothing, after all, to be gained from racism,
>and much
>to be gained from cooperation.
>
>As for not "making it" in the last 1500 years, that is open to

>interpretation..

Galina
There are no Makedonians other than those Hellenic ones.

There is not bigger RACISM than denying such truth.

June R Harton

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Feb 4, 2003, 2:14:00 AM2/4/03

to

Schneider
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message

> One thing I have noticed among Macedonians

Gail, when you refer to the West Bulgarian Slavic majority of Fyrom
please refer to them as that and keep your the anti-Greek racism
out of here.

There is nothing, after all, to be gained from racism, and much
to be gained from cooperation.

from: Spirit of Truth

June R Harton

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Feb 4, 2003, 2:21:28 AM2/4/03

to

"George S. Tsapanos" <lyn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030203213051...@mb-md.aol.com...

> Galina
> There are no Makedonians other than those Hellenic ones.
> There is not bigger RACISM than denying such truth.
> Regards to all ..................L.
> "Vlachs, The Autochthonous
> Of the Hellenic Peninsula".

And frankly, Gail Schneider, Lyngos is exactly correct. Your effort to
ELIMINATE the real Macedonian Greeks is tantamount to an attempt
at GENOCIDE as vile as that attempted by Hitler, don't you think?

The fact that you do not convey it in a facist manner but in a communist
Orwellian double-speak manner makes it, in fact, even more destructive.
You do recall that the Soviet Block was known as the Evil Empire,
don't you?

June R Harton

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Feb 4, 2003, 2:34:38 AM2/4/03

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"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E3F1EE4...@sympatico.ca...

> Panajoti are you afraid to say Macedonian names ,

He told you, Bulgarian, that they were Bulgarian names. And he is correct
and
you are wrong.

> Plovdiv: The name of the city in Bulgaria is of Thracian origin, and
> represents Pulpudava,. The Hellenes later changed the Thracian name as
> Philippopolis.

That was Philip of Macedon who was the Hellene who named it that, Bulgarian.
You cannot but help prove our points whenever you open
your mouth!

> Ilinden the Macedonian

Bulgarian, you will never be that as that latter name belongs only
to Greeks of the real Macedonia.

from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

.....The heart of Macedonia was always Greek

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 8:19:16 AM2/4/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Panajoti are you afraid to say Macedonian names , how about the Italian
names
> are you going to say the Latin names instead of the Italians?
> Plovdiv: The name of the city in Bulgaria is of Thracian origin, and
> represents Pulpudava,. The Hellenes later changed the Thracian name as
> Philippopolis. The Romans, however, called the settlement Trimontium,
> 'three hills;.

> Ilinden the SlavoSkopian

Abre tikvar,
What Macedonian names bre bezevengissa? Ostrovo, Sorovic, Kajlar of Demir
Kapia ?? Why a Macedonian would abort the Macedonians names Arnissa,
Amyntaion, Ptolemais, or Alalkomenai and use the Slavic or Turkish names ??
As for Philippoupolis bre bezevengissa, which Hellenes conquered the city and
named it after their king's name ? It could be Philippos the Makedon,
Alexander's father ??
LIAR, you have no limits on lying as a big SlavoSkopian propagandist.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Ilinden

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 8:47:42 AM2/4/03

to

Junebug the Ftcogians or Turkogreki and the Turkotatars they still occupied
Aegean and Pirin Macedonia since 1913.
Ilinden

Ilinden

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 9:12:51 AM2/4/03

to

Jovanche are you coming to Canada? I hear you have a brother here in Canada
according to Ralph Pirgov.
If this is true I like to see your Turkish face (I like the Turkish people they
are very good people they are not nitwits and obstinate like you.
Regards, Ilinden the Macedonian

Yannis the TURK wrote:

> Macedonia, FTCOG FORMER TURKISH COLONY OF GREECE.

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 9:31:53 AM2/4/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...

> Jovanche are you coming to Canada? I hear you have a brother here in Canada
> according to Ralph Pirgov.
> If this is true I like to see your Turkish face (I like the Turkish people
they
> are very good people they are not nitwits and obstinate like you.

> Regards, Ilinden the SlavoSkopian

Thessaloniki or Solun, Philipoupolis or Plovdiv, Alalkomenai or Demir Kapia,
Arnissa or OStrovo, Sfikia or Besfina, Olympias or Rakita, Amyntaion or
Sorovic, ....... Macedonian or SlavoSkopian ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Dennis Byzantinos

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 10:29:22 AM2/4/03

to

"Panayiotis" <pitt...@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:<b1cefv$f4f$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...

> Dear Ilinden,
> In your replies, please present data and quote your sources, the way I do.
> Conversation and exchange of ideas is more interesting that way.
> Love always,
> Panayiotis
>

> "Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

> news:3E39B83D...@sympatico.ca...
> > PANAJOTI YOU ARE FULL OF PROPAGANDA.

> > Darius III knew that Macedonia was not Hellas.The Macedonian language

> > with the Hellenic language had nothing in common. The operative word is
> > "age-old distinction" between Macedonians and Hellenes. "The reason for

> > including Macedonia as part of a larger Hellas was designed to justify

> > Macedonian participation in the so called war of revenge. Macedonians
> > never regarded their territory as forming part of Hellas. Certainly the
> > Greek poleis did not regard Macedonia as being another Greek polis.
> > Philip II never visited Athens. Alexander went there on a business trip
> > and to receive Athens' capitulation terms after the battle of Chaeronea.
> >

> > Ilinden the Macedonian
> >
> >
> >
> > Panayiotis wrote:
> >

> > > "Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

> > > news:b14f6m$lr3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
> > > >
> > > > Or from the archaeologist Andronikos( on the more distant past):
> > > >
> > > > THESSALONIKE MUSEUM: Professor of Archaeology at the University of
> > > > Thessalonike, Manolis Andronicos, and his associates produced a film
> under
> > > > the title "The Glory of Macedonia". Andronicos: "The Macedonian
> produced
> > > > Alexander was not Greek at all. Macedonia was ruled by kings. It was a
> > > > kingdom, whereas, Athens had democracy, a great achievement of the
> Greek
> > > > civilization". Furthermore: "Greeks after all lived in city-states,
> where
> > > > Greeks as proper civilized people should live. Whereas, Macedonians
> lived
> > > > under what the Greeks considered to be primitive and highly
> authoritative
> > > > monarchy".
> > > >
> > > > It should be an overwhelming clue to you grkomani MORONS that if
> Macedonians
> > > > and Greeks were of the same stock then they would have the same way of
> life
> > > > (political-civil) structure. But they weren't of the same stock, hence
> the
> > > > mentioned differences.
> > > >
> >

Hey people!

I've been following your discusion.You're an interesting bunch of
people however:
1) You're talking at each other, not with each other.
2) What do you guys mean when you say Macedonians?
a. the ethnic group?
b. the people living in the geographic region of Macedonia?
c. which region of macedonia?(Phillip's,Alexanders,The Diocletian
Roman province,The Byzantine province,Ottoman province.......
3)If they were an ethnic group did they live in the same place? depite
the barbarian raids of the Vandals,the Avars,the Slavs,the
Bulgars....Roman hegemony,Byzantine,Ottoman....
4)Why do you limit your discussion for the most part during the narrow
historic period of Alexander the Great?

For my friend Illinden, chill out.Do you want me to conjugate verbs in
Makedontski,Bulgarian,Latin and Greek for you ? Then based on what you
see you can explain the coincidental similarities? I'm not being a
smart ass I'm sincerely asking.What does "starocyrilica" mean to
you.Isn't it the alphabet you use today? Don't you feel that if you
had to learn a language, it would be easier to learn Serbian or
Bulgarian rather than Greek or Latin ? Would you be willing to accept
that some of your references are wrong? If history is a way for you to
understand humanity's treck through time you should.If you simply want
to read what makes you feel good then what's the use?

To Yannis the Macedonian. You speak for yourself and only for
yourself! It just so happens that I have very good friends many south
slav countries: Bulgaria,Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia.They are
very good people very loyal and very educated.Who are you to decide
for others who "we" as Greeks like and don't like.In the bombing of
Serbia huge Greek riots in the center of Athens and Thesaloniki were
aimed to show a tight frienship with the Serbs.Where were you,mars?
And now that were speaking of being "Greek", have you served in the
military yet, or are you one of those pure Greeks from a safe
distance? When we were lining up at the Turkish border for war during
the Imia crisis?

Don't forget that a big part of your identity of being Greek is being
Christian Orthodox.Well then these slavs are connected to you in a
very intimate way,Where does that fit in you theory of things ?

For ALL

By the way Rigas Velestinos dream was to awaken all the Christian
balkan nations to "UNITE"and rebel against the Ottoman empire.Since
then many have have a dream of a Balkan federation which would play
the role of a major european player.Instead we choose to fight
eachother as class B countries which are manipulated to remain small
and weak.So continue fighting and insulting eachother,its exactly what
the big boys want!

Wake up and read some Geopolitics! Your futures are all being planned
by other centers of power,and you are all Greeks and Slavs seen as the
modern day Barbarians!

The Byzantine

Yannis the Macedonian

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 11:34:10 AM2/4/03

to

"Dennis Byzantinos" <dennis...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
.............................................

> Hey people!
> I've been following your discusion.You're an interesting bunch of
> people however:
> 1) You're talking at each other, not with each other.

Yea. SlavoSkopians never answered to our questions but by insulting or lying
or underestimating important things while they overestimate unimportant ones.

> 2) What do you guys mean when you say Macedonians?
> a. the ethnic group?
> b. the people living in the geographic region of Macedonia?
> c. which region of macedonia?(Phillip's,Alexanders,The Diocletian
> Roman province,The Byzantine province,Ottoman province.......
> 3)If they were an ethnic group did they live in the same place? depite
> the barbarian raids of the Vandals,the Avars,the Slavs,the
> Bulgars....Roman hegemony,Byzantine,Ottoman....

I mean the derivators of the term Macedonian and their ethnic and cultural
descendants.

> 4)Why do you limit your discussion for the most part during the narrow
> historic period of Alexander the Great?

Because those Macedonians were the first ones. Since they were Greeks, today
only Greeks can be named Macedonians. The term Macedonian is meaningful only
for Greeks.

> For my friend Illinden, chill out.Do you want me to conjugate verbs in
> Makedontski,Bulgarian,Latin and Greek for you ? Then based on what you

There is no Makedontski. There is only Macedonian Greek dialect. Until 1912
there were Macedonian Turkish, Macedonian Bulgarian but today there is only
Macedonian Greek.

> see you can explain the coincidental similarities? I'm not being a
> smart ass I'm sincerely asking.What does "starocyrilica" mean to
> you.Isn't it the alphabet you use today? Don't you feel that if you
> had to learn a language, it would be easier to learn Serbian or
> Bulgarian rather than Greek or Latin ? Would you be willing to accept
> that some of your references are wrong? If history is a way for you to
> understand humanity's treck through time you should.If you simply want
> to read what makes you feel good then what's the use?

:))))
I 'm curious to see Trajka's answer !! The smarter one !!

> To Yannis the Macedonian. You speak for yourself and only for
> yourself! It just so happens that I have very good friends many south

No. I speak like many others here for the big majority of the Greeks.

> slav countries: Bulgaria,Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia.They are

There is no Republic of Macedonia because Macedonia is a region in Greece.
There is a country named FYROM inhabited mostly by SlavoSkopians and
Albanians.

> very good people very loyal and very educated.Who are you to decide

Tell us about educated SlavoSkopians. Do you know the arguments to tell them
that Macedonian were always Greeks ? Do they know that Macedonians had always
Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods and spread Greek Language and
Civilization to the World ? Or they are just "that" educated ?? What they
tell you about ? Ask them to come here in our forum and tell us their
"truth" !!

> for others who "we" as Greeks like and don't like.In the bombing of

The majority. I am the majority.

> Serbia huge Greek riots in the center of Athens and Thesaloniki were
> aimed to show a tight frienship with the Serbs.Where were you,mars?

I was there !!

> And now that were speaking of being "Greek", have you served in the
> military yet, or are you one of those pure Greeks from a safe
> distance? When we were lining up at the Turkish border for war during
> the Imia crisis?

:))))
But what does this have to do with SlavoSkopians' ethnic, language and
country's name ?

> Don't forget that a big part of your identity of being Greek is being
> Christian Orthodox.Well then these slavs are connected to you in a
> very intimate way,Where does that fit in you theory of things ?

Well, I have read Daniel and Paul books from Bible and I like to share my
knowledge with those SlavoSkopians that were for a long time in 'underground'
of Kusturitsa. .

> For ALL
> By the way Rigas Velestinos dream was to awaken all the Christian
> balkan nations to "UNITE"and rebel against the Ottoman empire.Since
> then many have have a dream of a Balkan federation which would play
> the role of a major european player.Instead we choose to fight
> eachother as class B countries which are manipulated to remain small
> and weak.So continue fighting and insulting eachother,its exactly what
> the big boys want!
> Wake up and read some Geopolitics! Your futures are all being planned
> by other centers of power,and you are all Greeks and Slavs seen as the
> modern day Barbarians!
> The Byzantine

Yes !! A friendship cannot be based on lies.
Come on SlavoSkopians. What is Macedonian on you ?? Lets realize the truth and
stop dreaming about Macedonia. Macedonians were always Greeks and spread Greek
Language and Civilization to the World. You can be proud Macedonians only if
you are Greeks.
Rigas looked for that federation because, after so many Greek attempts to
liberate Greece that were failed because Greeks were only few people, he
believed that only a greater Balkan union could liberate Balkans from
Ottomans. But
Greeks had the help they needed from outside, full paid :(((
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Anastassios Retzios

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 1:05:35 PM2/4/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message news:<b1ervn$5s1$1...@merki.connect.com.au>...

> Dear Panayotis,
>
> You believe, what you wish to beieve ( I will try to give you the references
> to the film in question), but here (below) is another bit of info for you,
> WHICH CLEARLY INDICATES that MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS.
>
> Zhivko
>
> PS What you should detest are the greek "parrots" like "Harton", "Yannis"
> (and the countless others like them), or the loony tune racist "Dorian",
> Panayotis.

This is a part of the "Anabasis" that every Greek kid studies at
school. Why have we missed the point and you "found" it? Where does
it state that the Macedonians were not Greeks? If anything, the
original strongly suggests that the Macedonians were Greek but some of
the specific conjugations.

But never mind. You are honing in to the "Macedonians" and "Greeks"
as if they were ethnic terms. They were not. They were geographic or
even cultural terms, not ethnic. "Hellas" or Greece in antiquity was
the area from Mount Olympus to Tainaron. Macedonia was not included in
this area. So, having "Macedonians" and "Hellenes" together is not
peculiar, it would have actually been expected in that particular
world of antiquity -although even in the text, the difference actually
disappears in sections -in which there was no such thing as a "Greek
ethnic consiousness". You are jugding the ancient world from your own
experiences and this is dangerous.

Even in this text, the fact remains that it was the "Macedonians and
the Hellenes" who were deep in India. The reason for this is was the
kinship between these two groups, which, following the death of
Alexander and in the wars of the Diadochi become inseparable and even
difficult to discern. Looking at the armies of Perdiccas, Antigonos
Monophthalmos, Seleukos, Ptolemy and the rest, it is very difficult to
tell how much of their troops were of Macedonian descent and how many
were Hellenes for souther Greece.

Let me tell you something to make all these clear to you: Arrian, who
wrote the "Anabasis" was a Greek of high rank who lived during
Trajan's time. During his time, Alexander's "romance" was sweeping
the hellenistic East a fact that prompted him to write this book.
From that period, if the Macedonians were not Greeks could be said and
made clear without any repercussions whatsoever. However, when Arrian
covers the reasons for war, Alexander's communications to Darius and
so on, he is absolutely clear that the campaigns were fought as a
crusade for Hellas. No doubt about that. They were fought primarily
though by Macedonians, and the antiparathesis intends to highlight
this.

Such antiparathesis is common in Greek historians, such as Thucydides
and it is employed many times in his account of the Peloponnesian war.
No big deal. What amazes me is that you see so much in this for a
period of which there is no such thing as a "Greek ethnos" acting
together in anything, not even a glimpse of this. Even in the Persian
wars, you have the Thebans and the Ionians fighting on the side of the
Persians quite successfully (in which, by the way, the only Greek to
defect the Persian cause was Alexander I. The Thebans stuck there to
the bitter end).

You can, of course, maintain this silly belief all you like. As you
well know, none of esteemed historians of the classical age read there
what you read but it is your privilege to dream.

ADR

Panayiotis

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 5:12:08 PM2/4/03

to

Dear Dennis,
I am very hesitant to believe that you are a Greek. Many times certain
people on this NG pretend to be "one of ours" in order to pas their views as
Greek.

"Dennis Byzantinos" <dennis...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ecefe4d1.03020...@posting.google.com...

> It just so happens that I have very good friends many south
> slav countries: Bulgaria,Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia.

No real Greek will use the pure term "Republic of Macedonia". For us and it
is FYROM, the term adopted by the United Nations and used in the official
diplomatic contacts.

> I've been following your discusion.You're an interesting bunch of
> people however:
> 1) You're talking at each other, not with each other.
> 2) What do you guys mean when you say Macedonians?
> a. the ethnic group?
> b. the people living in the geographic region of Macedonia?
> c. which region of macedonia?(Phillip's,Alexanders,The Diocletian
> Roman province,The Byzantine province,Ottoman province.......

I must say that you have not followed our discussion closely. If you had
done so, you would have realized that the other side believes, and has
stated quite clearly, that they are descendants of Alexander the Great and
that they belong to the "Macedonian nation". What is your opinion?
I am from Thessaloniki. Do I have the right to be called a Macedonian?

> Do you want me to conjugate verbs in
> Makedontski,Bulgarian,Latin and Greek for you ? >

>In the bombing of Serbia huge Greek riots in the center of Athens and
Thesaloniki were
> aimed to show a tight frienship with the Serbs.

> By the way Rigas Velestinos dream was to awaken all the Christian

> balkan nations to "UNITE"and rebel against the Ottoman empire.Since
> then many have have a dream of a Balkan federation which would play
> the role of a major european player.

Three more clues that you are not a Greek: If you were a Greek you would
have said "Rigas Velestinlis" and spelled my homecity as "Thessaloniki" and
not "Thesaloniki". Moreover, you make a distinction between Bulgarian and
the Slav dialect they use in FYROM. Nowhere in your message you use the term
FYROM. Either you are not a Greek, or you are a bad Greek having a complex,
because you have been influenced by foreign (British?) propaganda.

>In the bombing of Serbia huge Greek riots in the center of Athens and
Thesaloniki were
>aimed to show a tight frienship with the Serbs.Where were you,mars?
>And now that were speaking of being "Greek", have you served in the
>military yet, or are you one of those pure Greeks from a safe
>distance? When we were lining up at the Turkish border for war during
>the Imia crisis?

Your attack against Yannis makes me more suspicious!

Take care,
Panayiotis

Ilinden

unread,

Feb 4, 2003, 9:11:28 PM2/4/03

to

Panagjoti the United Nations recognize your country Greek Republic why do you
say Hellenic Republic? You speak Grekika not Hellenic.
Greece is a member of the European Union. In the Greek passports,since
the time they joined the E.U., Greece refers to themselves as Hellenic
Republic. In the United Nations Greece is recognized as Greek Republic.
Why does the European Union allow Greece to use a different name on
their passports? Why does the E.U. allow Greece to put up stumbling
blocks for Macedonia's recognition with her constitutional name? Why
does the E.U. agree with Greece?
In June 1992, in Portugal, the E.U. told Macedonia to change her name,
just to appease Greece! Macedonia's name has been in existence for
thousands of years. In the Bucharest Treaty in August 10, 1913 when
Macedonia was partitioned, that territory was always called Macedonia.
If Greece is so interested in Macedonia now, then why do they not open
Macedonian language schools in Aegean Macedonia?
Ilinden the Macedonian

June R Harton

unread,

Feb 5, 2003, 3:19:51 AM2/5/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E3FC47E...@sympatico.ca...

> Junebug the Ftcogians or Turkogreki and the Turkotatars they still
occupied
> Aegean and Pirin Macedonia since 1913.
> Ilinden

No Macedonia was occupied:

European Turkey! Look:

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."

And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

The Greeks deleted the word
> Macedonia in 1913 and they named it New Territory. Later on Northern
> Greece and they only recently revived the name Macedonia.
> Ilinden the Macedonian

The false propaganda that you repeat above is part of the
Fyromian scam. It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks
were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia by the
Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called
Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html

from: Spirit of Truth

June R Harton

unread,

Feb 5, 2003, 3:50:50 AM2/5/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E3FCA63...@sympatico.ca...
> Regards, Ilinden the Macedonian

Bulgarian, keep your falsehoods out of here.

June R Harton

unread,

Feb 5, 2003, 3:56:35 AM2/5/03

to

"Dennis Byzantinos" <dennis...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ecefe4d1.03020...@posting.google.com...

> Hey people!

When you come here be prepared to face truth.

> 2) What do you guys mean when you say Macedonians?

Greeks of course from the region of the real Macedonia in northern Greece.

As far as the Fyrom Slavic majority, you only have to look here to see that
they are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to Macedonia'
anything:

And here:

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

And here:

For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

And here:

And finally here

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid

So, "Byzantine", care to face truth?

June R Harton

unread,

Feb 5, 2003, 4:02:44 AM2/5/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E4072D0...@sympatico.ca...
> Ilinden the Macedonian

First, Bulgarian, you will nevber be that as that is a greek.

Point is, silly, Fyrom is NOT Macedonia and Macedonia is the region of
northern Greece called Macedonia since 1913 (the actual region of the
ancient Macedonian Greeks).

Panayiotis

unread,

Feb 5, 2003, 4:13:52 AM2/5/03

to

My dear Ilinden,
1. Why do you spend your energy trying to prove what WE are not, and don't
present arguments, examples, ideas, documents etc. on what YOU are?
2. The words Greek and Hellenic are synonymous. You have decided for me and
say very democraticaly: "You speak Grekika not Hellenic". Well, I speak
"Greek" i.e. "Hellenic" for Greeks and people of good will, Yunanli for
Turks, Arabs, Pakistanis etc.
3. Our country has many names, like Greece and Hellas. These two names are
synonymous and used interchangeably. Usually it is called Hellenic Republic,
Republic of Greece, Greek Republic etc. In the presidency of EU we go by our
historical name ELLAS (without the letter H). Many names. Like the United
Kingdom, England, Britain etc.
4. Excerpt from UN site:
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia -- (8 Apr. 1993)
The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the
United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945
and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the
establishment and subsequent admission as new members of Bosnia and
Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to
admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally
referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that
had arisen over its name.
5. You say: "Macedonia's name has been in existence for thousands of years".
Very true. All of us from Thessaloniki are very proud that our city has
been, and is, the political, historical and cultural capital of Macedonia
for thousands of years.
6. Finally, you pose many "Why's". I guess the UN and the EU know better
than we do, why they have recognized you and us the way they did!
Panayiotis

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E4072D0...@sympatico.ca...

Ilinden

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Feb 6, 2003, 9:20:46 AM2/6/03

to

Lawmakers Formally Abolish Yugoslavia
By ALEKSANDAR VASOVIC, Associated Press Writer
BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro - Erasing Yugoslavia
from the map of
Europe, lawmakers all but dissolved the troubled
Balkan federation Tuesday
and gave birth to a new country with a new name:
Serbia and Montenegro.
And now the United Nations and the Greeks they
have to call the Republic of Macedonia the Former Serbian
-Montenegro Republic of Macedonia. From the Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia

June R Harton

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Feb 7, 2003, 12:00:24 AM2/7/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E426F3E...@sympatico.ca...
> Ilinden the Macedonian

Bulgarian, I caught your lie again! Why do you do it?

One only has to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority

And here:

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

And here:

For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No Bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody

thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...

Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:

And finally here

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid

Zhivko Apostolovski

unread,

Feb 6, 2003, 10:33:11 PM2/6/03

to

More from Arrian, which CLEARLY relates the racial distinction
between the MACEDONIANS and the GREEKS:

Alexander's rationale as to why he would not like to engage the Persian
fleet in a battle:

"In the first place, it was to rush blindly into a naval engagement against
greatly superior forces, and with an untrained fleet against highly trained
Cyprian and Phoenician crews; the sea, morever, was a tricky thing - one
could not trust it, and he was not going to risk making a present to the
Persians of all the skill and courage of his men; as to defeat, it would be
very serious indeed and would affect profoundly the general attitude to the
war in its early stages, above all by ENCOURAGING the GREEKS TO
REVOLT THE MOMENT THEY GOT THE NEWS OF A PERSIAN
SUCCESS AT SEA."

Alexander addressing his troops:

With all that accomplished, why do you hesitate to extend the power of
MACEDON - your power- to the Hyphasis and the tribes on the other side?
...."Gentlemen of MACEDON, and you my FRIENDS and ALLIES, this
must not be. Stand firm; for well you know that hardship and danger are the
price of glory, and that sweet is the savour of a life of courage and of
deathless
renown beyond the grave." ...."Come, then; add the rest of Asia to what you
already possess - a small addition to the great sum of your conquests. What
great or noble work could we ourselves have achieved had we thought it
enough, living at ease in MACEDON, merely to guard our homes, excepting no
burden beyond checking the encroachment of the Thracians on our borders, or
the Illyrians and Triballians, or perhaps such GREEKS as might prove a
menace to our comfort."

Battle of Issus: "Darius' GREEKS fought to thrust the MACEDONIANS back into
the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while
the MACEDONIANS, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their
eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title
of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was
further embittered by the old RACIAL RIVALRYof GREEKS and
MACEDONIANS."

"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03020...@posting.google.com...

> "Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message
news:<b1ervn$5s1$1...@merki.connect.com.au>...
> > Dear Panayotis,
> >
> > You believe, what you wish to beieve ( I will try to give you the
references
> > to the film in question), but here (below) is another bit of info for
you,
> > WHICH CLEARLY INDICATES that MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS.
> >
> > Zhivko
> >
> > PS What you should detest are the greek "parrots" like "Harton",
"Yannis"
> > (and the countless others like them), or the loony tune racist "Dorian",
> > Panayotis.
>
> This is a part of the "Anabasis" that every Greek kid studies at
> school. Why have we missed the point and you "found" it? Where does
> it state that the Macedonians were not Greeks? If anything, the
> original strongly suggests that the Macedonians were Greek but some of
> the specific conjugations.

My dear greek propagandist,

Arrian's text CLEARLY SEPARATES the Macedonians from the Greeks. In
the Anabasis, the Greeks are either described as allies of the Macedonians
or they are specifically mentioned separately, because Arrian KNOWS they
are separate races/nations.

As you have already "illuminated" below, I have no doubt that the "Anabasis"
tought to the greek children cultivated in the "greek musroom farm"
(education system) is nothing like the one I read in the english version.
Else we wouldn't be flooded here with megalomaniac "greek musrooms" of the
type of Dorian, Harton, Tomy, Lyngos, Yanis and the COUNTLESS of
others like them, past and present.

>
> But never mind. You are honing in to the "Macedonians" and "Greeks"
> as if they were ethnic terms. They were not. They were geographic or
> even cultural terms, not ethnic.

But I do mind when I see countless greek "musrooms" like the ones already
mentioned, sprouting ad noseum.

And no honing is necessary on my part, whatsoever. It is very clear from
the text that the Macedonians and Greeks are two distinct entities
(nations).

"Hellas" or Greece in antiquity was
> the area from Mount Olympus to Tainaron. Macedonia was not included in
> this area.

Correct

So, having "Macedonians" and "Hellenes" together is not
> peculiar, it would have actually been expected in that particular
> world of antiquity -although even in the text, the difference actually
> disappears in sections -in which there was no such thing as a "Greek
> ethnic consiousness". You are jugding the ancient world from your own
> experiences and this is dangerous.

Again, you are correct, but only inasfar the distinction between Greeks and
Macedonians not being peculiar. As far as your comments reagarding "my
judgement of the ancient world", you are dead wrong. There is absoloutely
nothing to judge. The text speaks for itself - Macedonians are distinguished
from their ALLIES, the Greeks, who also are their enemies serving in the
Persian army.

And remember, the accounts by Arrian are from a Greek perspective, as
even you point out. It is you who are twisting the truth, garnishing it with
today's greek megalomaniac nationalistic "flavour" and inventing "Greeks"
from the Macedonians and usurping everything that was macedonian then,
as greek. Please, do tell Mr Retzios, what is more dangerous and stupid:
- calling the Macedonians exactly the way they were known then, or
renaming them into "Greeks" and usurping all of their history into a
FALSE "Greek" history?

> Even in this text, the fact remains that it was the "Macedonians and
> the Hellenes" who were deep in India.

As much as you wish it was otherwise, the Greeks played no major role in
Alexander's Macedonian empire. Greeks were discarded early on as unreliable
in battle. It was the Macedonians who led and ruled during and after the
death of Alexander. The Greeks like the many other conquered nationalities
in Alexander's army and empire played a subservient role. Alexander's empire
was a MACEDONIAN empire, full stop.

The reason for this is was the
> kinship between these two groups, which, following the death of
> Alexander and in the wars of the Diadochi become inseparable and even
> difficult to discern. Looking at the armies of Perdiccas, Antigonos
> Monophthalmos, Seleukos, Ptolemy and the rest, it is very difficult to
> tell how much of their troops were of Macedonian descent and how many
> were Hellenes for souther Greece.

The "kinship" is a "byproduct" of the modern Megalo(maniac) Greece Idea.
As much as Alexander's alleged "affinity" to Athens has been promoted by
the greek propagandists, the FACT remains that the MACEDONIAN
empire of Alexander was ruled (divided up) by his MACEDONIANS,
after his death.

The greek propagandists, for example, use the alleged letter of Alexander
to the Athenians, (associated with some gifts - spoils from the campaign
against the Persians), to "prove" Alexander's "greekness". But the scholarly
world (see below) does not buy into this greek nationalist propaganda and
take it exactly for what it was - a political ploy - propaganda.

J.R. Hamilton, Associate professor of Classics and Ancient History from the
University of Auckland, New Zealand, has this to say on the matter: "In view
of the small part that the Greeks had played in the battle, the inscription
(with its omission of any mention of the Macedonians) must be regarded as
propaganda designed for his Greek allies. Alexander does not fail to stress
the absence of the Spartans."

Now allow me to play your little silly game and hypothetiaclly pretend
that the ancient Macedonians and ancient Greeks were of the same ethnicity.
Going on evidence it is clear that the ancient Macedonians were of a
fair skin appearance. Which means the ancient Greeks would have been of
a fair appearance, as well. How do we account then for the racial difference
between the Macedonians and the Greeks of today? While the
Macedonians (including the greek occupied part of Macedonia)
predominantly retain the fair skin, the dominant greek population in Greece
proper is of a much darker appearance, of afro-asiatic origins. It is absurd
for these dark skinned Greeks to claim the Macedonians as their
forefathers. It simply is not true. Arrian knew very well that the
Macedonians and the Greeks were two distinct nations/races, then, as is
the case now.

> Let me tell you something to make all these clear to you: Arrian, who
> wrote the "Anabasis" was a Greek of high rank who lived during
> Trajan's time. During his time, Alexander's "romance" was sweeping
> the hellenistic East a fact that prompted him to write this book.
> From that period, if the Macedonians were not Greeks could be said and
> made clear without any repercussions whatsoever. However, when Arrian
> covers the reasons for war, Alexander's communications to Darius and
> so on, he is absolutely clear that the campaigns were fought as a
> crusade for Hellas. No doubt about that. They were fought primarily
> though by Macedonians, and the antiparathesis intends to highlight
> this.

There is absolutely no need for you to lecture about Arrian. He is very well
known to me. As I said above, Arrian being a Greek, can be be expected to
write with a greek slant, although the alleged letter to Darius, as is the
case
with the alleged letter to the Athenians, already mentioned above, indicates
nothing more than a political ploy as explained by Prof. Hamilton.
Alexander's empire, as attested by the fact that after his death remained
solely under the contorol of his MACEDONIANS, is NOT "Ellada".
Alexander fought for and created a MACEDONIAN empire, as it is
plainly obvious in Arrian's writings. You can put as much "greek"
decorations as you wish, but you can only fool your greek "musrooms".

> Such antiparathesis is common in Greek historians, such as Thucydides
> and it is employed many times in his account of the Peloponnesian war.
> No big deal. What amazes me is that you see so much in this for a
> period of which there is no such thing as a "Greek ethnos" acting
> together in anything, not even a glimpse of this. Even in the Persian
> wars, you have the Thebans and the Ionians fighting on the side of the
> Persians quite successfully (in which, by the way, the only Greek to
> defect the Persian cause was Alexander I. The Thebans stuck there to
> the bitter end).

The "famous" megalomaniac greek (hellenic) ethnos (read imperialism) is a
"phantom" dating back (only) to the times of the good old "Greek" OTTO.
It begins its rise to infamy in the 19th C, resulting in "Greeks" of today
like
Dorian, Lyngos, June, Yannis and the countless of others like them who
have flooded these fora.

> You can, of course, maintain this silly belief all you like. As you
> well know, none of esteemed historians of the classical age read there
> what you read but it is your privilege to dream.

I am confident that the intelligent readers, unlike you, can make a
reasonable conclusion regarding the distinction between the ancient
Macedonians and the ancient Greeks, as it is plainlyevident from the
text of Arrian. I only have provided the evidence - from a greek
source/perspective of the time. You are free to play your silly greek
megalomaniac game and keep on imagining the Macedonians as
"Greeks". It is clear that Arrian was unaware of your silly little game
:-)))))

Zhivko

Panayiotis

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Feb 7, 2003, 3:48:26 PM2/7/03

to

Dear Ilinden,

Promised to study your interesting message (Names of Villages).
I'll be away for a few days, so I thought I should drop you a few lines,
although I could do better if I postponed my reply for later.

1. You and yours keep calling me with a Slavised name "PANAJOTI", although
my name is Panayiotis and I sign as such. You are guilty (at a very small
scale, of course!) for changing my name!!!

2. Congratulations to Lena Jankovski and Alex Bakratcheff for spending their
precious time on an interesting subject. I spent many hours studying their
statistics and I know first hand how difficult it was to collect all this
data. Nevertheless, I have to submit my comments, as objectively as I can.

3. In my interim reply to your post, I said: there was an exchange of

populations between Greece and Turkey (after 1922) and Greece and Bulgaria
(in 1925). How would you feel, if you were a Greek living in a village empty
of Turks or Bulgarians, and the name of the village was Turkish or Slav?

Wouldn't you give it a Greek name? I find it very natural. How many villages

in FYROM and Bulgaria changed their names to Slav? Philippoupolis to

Plovdiv, Melenikon to Melnik (the Byzantine place of exile for dukes and
aristocrats, and the birthplace of Polyzoidis, one of the two judges that
opposed to the death sentence of Kolokotronis during King Otto's reign).

4. The study says that the names of 804 villages were "forcedly" changed in
Greek Macedonia. This is untrue. Data is incomplete and one can figure that
the number was raised to 804 because of these inaccuracies. Here are my
comments:

a. Under the column "District", 343 districts were not denoted. This can
lead to duplications and wrong correlations of mis-spelled names. Examples:
Berishcha, Fotovishcha, Frankovitza, Futzeli, Fustani, Gavrishcha.

b. For 26 names there was no corresponding Greek name. Examples: Gorjantzi,
Gosno, Karpeny, Libjahovo.

c. There are at least 111 Turkish names. Refugees from Asia Minor were
settled to most of these villages. Examples: Dudular, Durgutli, Egri Dere,
Ekshi-su, Gjulobasi, Hadzhi-bajramli.

d. The names of 21 villages are reported as having been changed, although
they have been kept the same. Examples: Gramos, Hristos, KAVALA, Klisura,
Nigrita.

e. At least 3 names are reported twice. Examples: Dzhuma (Kozhany) Amigdala
and Dzuma (No District) Migdala,
Topchievo (Solun) Gerifa and Toptzi (No District) Gefira (this is the
historical Topsin, where the Turkish General surrendered Thessaloniki to the
Greek army in 1912).

f. Three villages were changed back to their ancient names. Examples:
Kulakija (No District) Halastra (Koulakia is mentioned by Herodotus as
Halastra), Zhensko (Kukush) Ginekokastron (Gynekokastro has been known by
its Turkish name, Avrat Hisar), Tekelievo (Solun) Sindos (it has been known
by its Turkish name, Tekeli).

g. One at least is a Vlach name and now has two names. Locals use both names
without any problem, because it means the same thing. Example: Neveska
(Lerin) Nimfeon (People are proud of their ancestors being the border guards
of the Byzantine Empire. Visited this village 3 years ago on the way to
Prespa. Mr. Mertzos of Ellinikos Voras is the mayor of this village. The
village is known for the Arktouros program, i.e. the preservation of wild
bears).

h. Remarks: Please compare --- Ahil (Kostur) Agios Ahileos (Agios Ahilios
is the church on the island at Prespa), Ajtos (Lerin) Aetos, Alistrat (Ser)
Alistrati, Aposkep (Kostur) Aposkepos, Ber (Imatja) Veria, Bogatsko (Kostur)
Agios Nikolaos -- it is still called Vogatsiko, Bugarievo (Solum)
Karavias -- strange, you claim a Bulgarian name as yours!!!.
Cherepljan (Ser) Tserepljani, Churilovo (Kostur) Tsirilovon, Doksat (Drama)
Doksaton, DRAMA DRAMA, Vatilak (Solun) Vatilakon -- Vathylakkos.
Regards to all,
Panayiotis

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

Yannis the Macedonian

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Feb 7, 2003, 4:13:33 PM2/7/03

to

"Panayiotis" <pitt...@otenet.gr> wrote:
.....................................

> c. There are at least 111 Turkish names. Refugees from Asia Minor were
> settled to most of these villages. Examples: Dudular, Durgutli, Egri Dere,
> Ekshi-su, Gjulobasi, Hadzhi-bajramli.

.........................................

Actually Trajka cares to preserve any non Macedonian toponym in Macedonia
because otherwise Macedonia's Greekness would be clear. So she prefers to say
Slavic ( = Bulgarian ) and Turkish instead of Macedonian toponyms: Ostrovo
instead of Arnissa, Banitsa instead of Vevi, Kajlar instead of Ptolemais,
Hrupista instead of Halastra, Demir Kapia instead of Alalkomenai, Gevgelja
instead of Idomeni, Solun instead of Thessaloniki ....... ( Nevertheless she
cannot say Thessaloniki because SlavoSkopians as Slavic speakers cannot say
th(eta). ).
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Ilinden

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Feb 7, 2003, 4:51:48 PM2/7/03

to

Dear Panajoti ( Panayiotis) It is the same thing in Macedonian for Panayioti we
say Pane which we Macedonians don't have that name like the Greeks (Ftcogians,
Turkogreki) Don't have the Macedonian name Trajan ( In your language Trajanos.
Your comment please on this letter.
The Bucharest Treaty, August 10, 1913. Macedonia was divided among
Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. Since that time until the present Great
Britain and France, who were the culprits who divided Macedonia don't
say anything to Bulgarians and Greeks for violating the human rights of
the Macedonian people living in Pirin and Aegean Macedonia.
How much more irrefutable evidence do Great Britain and France need? In
Aegean Macedonia all the toponyms were changed from Macedonian into
Greek (1926) the first and last names of the Macedonian people were
changed. The Macedonian language was suppressed in 1936. In Bulgaria and
Greece you are not allowed to have Macedonian schools, churches,
theater, news media. People was terrorized and tortured. The truth is
out now!
Ilinden the Macedonian

Panayiotis

unread,

Feb 7, 2003, 7:20:10 PM2/7/03

to

Dear Zhivko,
The following text was copied from Miami University. No comments!
QUOTE

The Oath of Alexander the Great
Now that the wars are ending, I wish you to prosper in peace. All the
mortals from now on to live in unity, as one people, for the common good.

Regard the Earth as your motherland where the excellent may govern with
common laws regardless of race. I do not discriminate between people, as the
narrow minded do, into Hellenes or Barbarians. As for myself, I am not
interested in the ethnic background of the citizen or his race. I classify
them on only one criterion; their virtue. For me, every good foreigner is a
Hellene and every bad Hellene is worse than a Barbarian.

If differences ever arise you should not resort to arms but you should
resolve them peacefully. If necessary, I shall stand as your arbitrator.

Think of God, not as an autocratic ruler, but as a common father so that you
treat each other as members of one family. On my part, I consider all,
whites or blacks, as equals and I desire that all be not only citizens of
the commonwealth but also associates and partners. To do the best of my
ability, I shall try to implement what I have pledged. We took an oath with
libation tonight. Keep it as a deed of love.

At the banquet of the dignitary quests of all races at the city Opis of
Assyria, 324 B.C.
UNQUOTE

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b215qn$pl2$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

Zhivko Apostolovski

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Feb 7, 2003, 8:09:31 PM2/7/03

to

"George S. Tsapanos" <lyn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030203213051...@mb-md.aol.com...

Mr Ligushko, you silly old racist Vlach,

Tell Arrian that Macedonians are "Greeks" :-)))))))))))))))

It is him who writes that Macedonians are NOT Greeks. Alas, he wasn't aware
of the the future political developments that would occur nearly two
millenia later,
else he would have written exactly to your taste, grkoman Vlach :-))))))))

Answer me this, Vlach: If the Vlachs are the "real Greeks", according to
YOUR theory. Then what are the dominant afro-asiatic Greeks in Greece
proper? Or the "profsigi" from Asia Minor, now living in Macedonia. Are they
your long lost relatives with whom you shared common
genes/language/culture/customs/literacy, etc? :-)))) Or are you more closely
related to the Macedonians whom you so "bravely" attribute demeaning names
like "skopians", "bulgarians", etc?

June R Harton

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Feb 8, 2003, 2:59:57 AM2/8/03

to

"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3E442A73...@sympatico.ca...

> Dear Panajoti ( Panayiotis) It is the same thing in Macedonian

West Bulgarian, Bulgarian. Get it right!

> say Pane which we Macedonians

Bulgarians.

>don't have that name like the Greeks (Ftcogians,
> Turkogreki) Don't have the Macedonian

West Bulgarian.

name Trajan ( In your language Trajanos.
> Your comment please on this letter.

Sure, you are trying to mislead people again.

> The Bucharest Treaty, August 10, 1913. Macedonia was divided

No Macedonia was divided:

European Turkey! Look:

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

The false propaganda that you repeat above is part of the

Fyromian scam. It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks
were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia by the
Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called
Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html

June R Harton

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Feb 8, 2003, 4:33:33 AM2/8/03

to

"Zhivko Apostolovski" <zhi...@mail2me.com.au> wrote in message

news:b21jda$2h0$1...@merki.connect.com.au...

:)

What did I tell you, Bulgarian?

> > There is not bigger RACISM than denying such truth.
> Mr Ligushko, you silly old racist Vlach,
> Tell Arrian that Macedonians are "Greeks" :-)))))))))))))))
> It is him who writes that Macedonians are NOT Greeks. Alas, he wasn't
aware
> of the the future political developments that would occur nearly two
> millenia later,
> else he would have written exactly to your taste, grkoman Vlach :-))))))))

ROTFL

You are making such a fool of yourself, Bulgarian!

Lies, will not save you from truth, Bulgarian.

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated.

[n2] are not following me
> into dangers any longer with your spirit. I have summoned you together,
> either to persuade you to go forward, or to be persuaded by you to turn
> back. If indeed you have any fault to find with the exertions you have
> hitherto endured,. and with me as your leader, there is no object in my
> speaking further. [4] If, however, it is through these exertions that
Ionia
> is now in our hands, and the Hellespont, both Phrygian peoples, the
> Cappadocians, Paphlagonians, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Pamphylia,
> Phoenicia, Egypt, with the Greek part of Libya, [n3] part of Arabia,
Syria,
> both the 'hollow' land and that between the rivers, Babylonia, the Susian
> [5] nation, the Persians and Medes, with all the nations subject to Persia
> and Media, and those which were not, [n4] the regions beyond the Caspian
> gates, beyond the Caucasus, on the other side of the Tanais, Bactrians,
> Hyrcanians, the Hyrcanian Sea; if we have driven the Scythians into the
> desert [n5]; if, besides all this, it is through territory now our own
that
> the Indus flows, and the Hydaspes, the Acesines, and the Hydraotes, why do
> you hesitate to add the Hyphasis and the peoples beyond the Hyphasis to
this
> MACEDONIAN EMPIRE of ours?

Of course, Macedonian Greek empire indicated.

> [6] Do you fear lest other barbarians may yet withstand your approach?
Why,
> some of them come over readily, some are captured in flight, some desert
> their country and leave it vacant for us; this land we have indeed annexed
> to our allies and those who have voluntarily come over to us.
>
> 26. 'For my part, I set no limit to exertions for a man of noble spirit,
> save that the exertions themselves should lead to deeds of prowess. Yet if
> any one longs to hear what will be the limit of the actual fighting, he
> should understand that there remains no great stretch of land before us up
> to the river Ganges [n1] and the eastern sea.
>
> This sea, I assure you, will prove to be joined to the Hyrcanian sea [n2];
> for the great sea encircles all the land. And it will be for me [2] to
show
> MACEDONIANS and ALLIES

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated

> alike that the Indian gulf [Arabian Sea] forms but
> one stretch of water with the Persian gulf, and the Hyrcanian Sea with the
> Indian gulf. From the Persian gulf our fleet shall sail round to Libya, as
> far as the Pillars of Heracles [Straits of Gibraltar]; from the Pillars
all
> the interior of Libya then becomes ours, just as Asia is in fact becoming
> ours in its entirety, and the boundaries of our Empire here are becoming
> those which God set for the whole continent. [n3] But if we flinch now,
> there [3] will be many warlike races left behind on the far side of the
> Hyphasis up to the Eastern Sea, and many too stretching from these to the
> Hyrcanian Sea to the north, and the Scythian tribes not far from these, so
> that there is reason to fear that if we turn back, even our present
> possessions, whic h are not held securely, may be stirred to revolt by
those
> who are not yet under our control. Then our numerous exertions [4] will
> indeed be profitless, or we shall have to start again with fresh exertions
> and dangers. But you must persevere, MACEDONIANS and ALLIES.

Of course, Macedonian Greeks indicated.

> Exertions and
> dangers are the price of deeds of prowess, and it is sweet for men to live
> bravely, and die leaving behind them immortal renown. Or do you not know
> that it 5 was not by remaining in Tiryns or in Argos or even in the
> Peloponnese or Thebes that our ancestor attained such renown that
> from a man he became, or was held, a god? Even Dionysus, a more
> delicate god than Heracles, had not a few labours to perform.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY, BULGARIAN? It indicates right there that Arrian
and they themselves identified the Macedonians as Greeks and also
indicates that they were Greek speaking.

snip> rest of which would shows exactly the same thing>

And look at what else he said which completely and utterly destrys your
false data:

"...he (Alexandros III) sent to Athens 300 Persian panoplies, which he
devoted to Athena, and ordered to write on them: Alexandros son of Philippos
and the Hellenes, except the Lakedaimonians, from the barbarian inhabitants
of Asia..."
Arrianos I (Anabasis) 16, 7
Historian, 95-175AD

"...Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great
harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader
of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which
I took from you..."
Arrianos II (Anabasis) 14, 4
Historian, 95-175AD

Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoudest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."

> Answer me this, Vlach: If the Vlachs are the "real Greeks", according to
> YOUR theory.

Here, Bulgarian:

Here is the real area of Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif

And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians: