The origin of greeks
apollon
place in the University of Moscow, under the supervision of the famous
professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz. The research was based on the
study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face,
skin
colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants in the f.
Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical
elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their
geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of
their low dispersion)
the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the
historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the
Mesolithic and Upper
Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity
is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary
inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which
statistically show no differences. Despite the occasional influences
and limited
migrations of populations, the anthropological research has shown that
the population of Greece is basically native and that the contemporary
Greeks
are descendants of the ancient peoples who resided in the Greek
peninsula.
“Over 150 scientists of the University and the Academy of Moscow have
fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris.
Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research, and without
sparing their expressions, they spoke with praising words about him.
Dr S. A.
Tocarev, professor of ethnography in the University of Moscow and head
of the Department of Ethnography regarding the peoples of Europe at
the
Institute of Ethnography of the Moscow Academy of Sciences, stated the
following:
Aris Poulianos work presents an exceptional interest for the
ethnographic science. The huge anthropological material of Greeks,
which is
concentrated and statistically elaborated, introduces for the first
time new scientific sources for the study of a problem of basic
importance, as is the
problem of the origin of the Greek people.The
writer of the present study, convincingly and based on analogous
material, showed that whatever the influence of Slavs and other
peoples who came
in contact with the Greeks was, the people of modern Greece is
basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans and the
Aegean islands.
The worldwide famous anthropologist of Moscow University Dr I. I.
Roginski notes that in the southern part of the Balkans a wide border
between
the Dinaric and the front Asian anthropological types is located.
Therefore, in this area some of the general problems of the
classification of the
European and front Asian populations may be ascertained. It must be
also noted that by this work, the critique of the racist fabrications,
regarding
the genesis of the ancient Greek civilization, is found. “(Note:
meaning the racist theories supporting that contemporary Greeks are
not descendents
from the ancient and this is the reason why their civilization today
falls short compared to that of the developed countries. On the
contrary, besides
the groundless comparison – if for instance the traditions would be
taken into account – the scientific verification regarding the
biological continuity
of Greeks once more proves that the socio-historical and geographical
conditions are the main factors ruling the people’s cultural level.)”.
From the other side of Atlantic, in USA, the director of the
Smithsonian Institute, G.L. Angel, in a book review of “The origins of
the Greeks” at
the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (No 22, v. 5, 1964, p.
343) writes: Aris Poulianos… correctly verifies that there is a full
genetic
continuity from ancient to contemporary times.
“The scientific study of A. N. Poulianos refutes the dogmatic theory
of the Greek hater,
German historian Fallmerayer, who lived from 1790 to 1861, the time of
the Greek fight for independence. Him (Fallmerayer) altogether
dogmatically, that is without prior anthropological research - and
therefore self-evidently anti-scientifically - tried to support the
theory that Greeks
are mainly Slavs. The researcher (A. Poulianos) ends by mentioning
that the anthropological study, with the necessary historical and
linguistic data,
is necessary for the solution of ethnogenetic problems.
The present is the reflection of the past and in this lays its
historical value. If the past helps us understand the present, the
present helps us meditate
on the future.
About now this "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub - Saharan origin
of the Greeks" let me remind you which are the authors of this
project:
Arnaiz - Villena department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12
de Octubre , Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. and K.
DIMITROSKI
TISSUE TYPING LABORATORY.INSTITUTE OF BLOOD TRANSFUCTION , SKOPJE.
FYROM .Reading this project it was as if i was reading the same
fyromian propaganda, it is suposed to be a scientific work , but if
someone goes on and read it all, especially the second paragraph which
explains that the ancient Greeks had nothing to do with the ancient
Macedonians, he can easely understand that it uses the same exactly
propaganda that the psevdomacedonians use.For example we can read "
they (the ancient Macedonians) did not speak Greek but another
language presently unknown and of which only proper names remain;
nowadays, they speak a Slavic language" !!!, i wonder what this
propaganda has to do with that scientific project.It is really
strange...Perhaps the real author is only Mr. K. DIMITROSKI from
behalf of the FYROM goverment and the real cause is to put a
scientific excuse for their unbeleivable lies..."The cultural ,
historical and genetic identity of "Macedonians" is established
according to OUR results" ...NO COMMENTS.
About the conclusions now of that "scientific" work, unfortunately the
"professors" reached the above
conclusion ("HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub - Saharan origin of
the Greeks") following a route of low scientific standards, since they
were based on a sample of only a few individuals and only the HLA gene
is studied.
They also little respected deontology, because ignoring the previous
and more accurate anthropological bibliography, since the phenotype is
represented by thousands of genes. Along this slippery way, also the
work of A. Mourant et al: “The distribution of human blood groups and
other
polymorphisms”, University of Oxford, 1976, pp 1055, is missing from
their bibliography. In this edition it is referred that the HLA gene
is an
unreliable basis to exact conclusions on such matters, since it makes
the inhabitants of Basque, Iceland and Congo to have … bonds of
kinship. It
may be noted that views of this kind appeared since 1965, i.e. in a
time when studies of molecular biology based on human DNA were not yet
started, curiously coordinated toward the same direction.(using the
knowledge of professor mr. Aris Poulianos)
Also we can read in that "scientific" work the hypothesis that "there
could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with
ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic
background. The admixture must have occured in the Aegean Islands and
Athens area at least" Did not the authors really wonder about the
probability that Greeks, rulers of the high seas at the time, traveled
the opposite way, as many ancient sources refer and it is well known?
Anastassios Retzios
I think that the best thing you can say about Poulianos'
"dissertation" is that it would take useful space in a garbage bin or
that it is a sure bet to provide laughs in a boring party.
ADR
apollon
occupation?you are an anthropologist now also except historian?or you
think that your opinion is more accurate from that of a world wide
known anthropologist as Mr. Aris Poulianos and the 150 scientists of
the University and the Academy of Moscow(and not only), MOSCOW'S
UNIVERSITY , WHICH MEANS A SLAV UNIVERSITY , if you get what i mean...
Anastassios Retzios
I am a molecular biologist, if you need to know. Now, Mr. Poulianos
is a disgrace to scientific inquiry, this is for sure. If you choose
to believe his rantings, then so be it. For me, your post was such a
blast from the past!!
ADR
KraleM
affiliation with Macedonia, it is called propaganda, but when a
dissertation is done by a Greek (based on weight, height, colour,
etc????) is NOT AT ALL PROPAGANDA????
WolfWolf
"KraleM" <em...@address.com> wrote in message
news:3D359D55...@address.com...
Very simple. There is an old Latin saying: "Quod licet Iovi, non licet
bovi."
(What is allowed to Jupiter, is not allowed to the ox.)
Hi, ox! :-))
apollon
am giving you scientific clues and the only thing you have to say is "
Mr. Poulianos is a disgrace to scientific inquiry " .That is your
reply?If Mr. Aris Poulianos is a disgrace to scientific inquiry then
i think you better go and change job, you have to offer much more
things as a garbage picker than as a molecular biologist..
> > Besides, apollon, why is it when a study on D N A!!! is done with an
> > affiliation with Macedonia, it is called propaganda, but when a
> > dissertation is done by a Greek (based on weight, height, colour,
> > etc????) is NOT AT ALL PROPAGANDA????
Simply because it wasn't a propaganda!The research took place in the
University of Moscow during the soviet union period and didn't have
anything to do with Greece, under the supervision of the famous
professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz.Over 150 scientists of the
University and the Academy of Moscow have fully agreed with the
scientific views of Mr. Aris. Is this propaganda? it hurts to learn
the truth eh?In the contrary if you read all the "scientific" research
about the "subsaharan origin of greeks" which has the signature of 10
scientists not 150+ (and do me a favor and read it all) it is obvious
that it is a clear disgusting propaganda with incredible lies that has
as a target the Greek people!The only truth i could find in this
research is the sentence that says " Herodotus wrote that Macedonians
were Dorians", hasn't anyone told you that the Dorians were a Greek
tribe?
Anyway , i can understand the inferiority complex you all feel when
you have to do with the Hellenic nation,it is hard for you to know
that we are still here after thousands of years and we will be till
the end of this world, the same people who gave you your alphabet,told
you how to use a spoon and a knife and made you houman beings in
general(are u?).This is your thank to us.I think now it is time to go
back to your caves and trees ....
Kali sas nixta kirie retzio kai loipoi..
Anastassios Retzios
> For one more time Mr. Retzios your reply doesn't tell me anything, i
> am giving you scientific clues and the only thing you have to say is "
> Mr. Poulianos is a disgrace to scientific inquiry " .That is your
> reply?If Mr. Aris Poulianos is a disgrace to scientific inquiry then
> i think you better go and change job, you have to offer much more
> things as a garbage picker than as a molecular biologist..
First of all, it is Dr. Retzios. Second, I know Mr. Poulianos'
"thesis", if such a word can be used in this case. It is a drivel,
worth a couple of laughs in a scientific symposium and this is the
reason why it is not taken seriously even in Greece. The fact that it
was "hailed" by the "scientists" from the University of Moscow has
something to do with Mr. Poulianos previous connections -which you
should investigate- and with a sorry state of research in genetics in
the Soviet Union that never revived from the imposition of an
anti-mendellian marxist ideology that defied all the concepts of
modern molecular genetics. The history of this and its effect on
Soviet Biomed research is discussed in thousands of articles.
I suggest also that you trim down the chauvistic drivel that you have
injected in this discussion.
ADR
ADR
apollon
latest theories(http://maknews.com/html/articles/hla_genes.pdf) of our
beloved neighbors.With "Greeks" as you we don't need any enemies...
Have a nice day
tommy
It is irrelevant. What is the truth?
As for the pdf file you present it has some stupid positions like the
ancient Macedonians were not allowed in the Olympic games etc. So the
conclusions are suspicious but the data should not be disputed.
They don't mention Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Serbs!!! It could identify
that the FYROM are actually all Bulgarians, or raped by Turks which is why
they have a connection to other mediterranean peoples. Interesting enough
they didn't get samples from Greek Macedonia.
Also there could be a Greek connection with some Ethiopian tribes, but it
could be in the direction of Greeks colonising Ethiopia. This is the central
theme (the Greek-Ethiopian), yet they hide the evidence like they hide the
data with the Albanians and Bulgarians. It seems suspicious and most likely
in Greek's favour (ie the Greeks colonised).
Essentially one position is true. Greeks are outliers to the mediterranean.
This means Greeks are different from all our neighbours, thus not a product
of invasions. Therefore descendants of original ancient Greeks.
So essentially if we take the data of this document and make the obvious
conclusions that the author kept silent, molecular biology actually proves
Poulianos!!!
"apollon" <apoll...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e69662c6.02071...@posting.google.com...
apollon
> could be in the direction of Greeks colonising Ethiopia. This is the central
> theme (the Greek-Ethiopian), yet they hide the evidence like they hide the
> data with the Albanians and Bulgarians. It seems suspicious and most likely
> in Greek's favour (ie the Greeks colonised).
If you read my first post you can see that i beleive exactly the same,
take a look: "Also we can read in that scientific work the hypothesis
that "there
could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with
ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic
background. The admixture must have occured in the Aegean Islands and
Athens area at least" DID NOT THE AUTHORS REALLY WONDER ABOUT THE
PROPABILITY THAT GREEKS, RULERS OF THE HIGH SEAS AT THE TIME,
TRAVELED THE OPPOSITE WAY, AS MANY ANCIENT SOURCES REFER AND IT IS
WELL KNOWN?
I beleive that if the same scientific work include and other nations
far away from the mediteranean area ,it will be proved tha Greeks will
be found to have a substantial relatedness also with indian tribes
from south America, north America , Polenisia, afghanistan etc. not
because we come genetically from them,
but exactly the opposite.The Greek civilization and sperm was spreaded
all over the world from the very ancient times.
tommy
are unique to the region and not a product of invasion by neighbours.
It thus proves Poulianos theory despite Poulianos' methodology and political
backers.
Greeks have remained unique. Quite an amazing story if you think of the
history of past 3000 years.
"apollon" <apoll...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e69662c6.02071...@posting.google.com...
MiltiadisS
under the microscope and miss the forest.
"tommy" <tro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d382fc3$0$822$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> > beloved neighbors.With "Greeks" as you we don't need any enemies...
>
> It is irrelevant. What is the truth?
I could not agree more. When one takes refuge in his titles or, even
worse, in vulgar cries (TRAITOR! TRAITOR!) he cannot be serious...
> Also there could be a Greek connection with some Ethiopian tribes, but it
> could be in the direction of Greeks colonising Ethiopia. This is the central
> theme (the Greek-Ethiopian), yet they hide the evidence like they hide the
> data with the Albanians and Bulgarians. It seems suspicious and most likely
> in Greek's favour (ie the Greeks colonised).
Of couurse there are connections between the Greeks and the Ethiopians
and it is an honour and not a shame, poor Preudomacedonian rasists.
A non-biological proof can be fiound in the magnificent ancient greek
Mythology: try finding the myth of Queen of Ethiopia Kassiopeia and
King Cepheus and their daughter Andromeda.
>Greeks are different from all our neighbours
= not true
>thus not a product
> of invasions. Therefore descendants of original ancient Greeks
= partially true
So you want truth?
Truth is that the definition and the substance of a Nation does not
include DNA tests. Truth is that even the ancient Greeks were quite
mixed up genetically. Truth is that all humans alive on this planet
are so closely related genetically to each other that one cannot talk
about genetic inferiority or superiority without being ridiculous
(except rare exceptions, like the cretins of the Alps -literally, not
metaphorically ).
Truth is that the Hellenic Nation, including the brave and proud
Macedonians, is one of the oldest and most glorious, from all points
of view, Nations in the world, as well as the "inventor" and fundament
layer of the modern Western civilisation.
Best regards
MiltiadisS
tommy
> > So you want truth?
Can you handle the truth?
> Truth is that the definition and the substance of a Nation does not
> include DNA tests. Truth is that even the ancient Greeks were quite
> mixed up genetically. Truth is that all humans alive on this planet
True. But that new combination created the Greek people. There have been
some new additions, but there is a continuity. The DNA tests don't define
nations, but it has shown Greeks are foreign with other med. peoples.
Because we're earlier and only survivors, is the only explanation.
> are so closely related genetically to each other that one cannot talk
> about genetic inferiority or superiority without being ridiculous
In fact it is not true. It is liberal mythology interested in having
everyone get along in a multicultural society rather than the truth. Like
Blacks from West African descent are good at short distances. Blacks from
East Africa are good at long distances. They are superior in their field.
Japanese have higher IQ averaging 110, than Americans averaging 100. The
Swedes are taller than the Bantu from Africa. English leave home at 18 or
before, Greeks after 25. We are all related, but we couldn't be more
different. That is the Truth.
I doesn't mean we should be arrogant to others. The DNA does show we are
different from others. How you deal with that truth is your problem.
Yes, there are non-biological nations like America, but also biological ones
like Denmark and Greece. Let's stay that way. Otherwise it doesn't make
sense. A multicultural Greece of blacks and asians and swedes has no right
to ancient Greece and Macedonia, and is no different to a multicultural
Italy or Ireland.
Maybe some Greeks point there is a cultural not racial/biologicaql
continuity because they feel an insecurity on the question, hang on why
aren't modern Greeks as successful as Ancient.
First of all Ancient Greeks got many their ideas from Egypt for 100s of
years before developing their own, like today they are getting them from
America. We are still at the first stage. Second Ancient Greeks as powerful
as Alexander's Empire were still conquered by the few Romans. While modern
Greeks revolted and became a nation from an Ottoman Empire, much larger than
then Rome.
Then Greeks are poorer than Western Europe, but richer than all Eastern
European and Middle Eastern countries, despite the civil wars and all the
foreign invasions Greece had to suffer, that many Western countries were
spared.
etc. etc.
akroaristeros
-macedonian were as greeks as the athinians,spartian ,ypirotians or
thivians which at one or other time dominet the greece nation which
was divided in city states.
-slaves "macedonias" of greece although their leadership was caliming
hundreads of thousands they roughly number 10 000 in 2.5 million greek
macedonia(slavic rainbow party of greece got 4 000 votes)
-slaves came in balkans more than 700 handreads yera after the
macedonian dynastys
-slaves are minority in their onw state of
FYROM(alabanians are not slaves neither are turks serbs vlachs and
other nationalities which count more than 45% of the total in
"official" numbers)
-slaves will have hard time not loosing 40 to 50% of fyrom not to have
claims over the greek territory and greek history and civilazation(not
to say that any millitan actions of slaves will be one days work for
the powerfull greek army-to demolish the whole state of FYROM)
-the international name of slaves is FYROM and none else.
-FYROM is the next to line to split as albanians have defacto
indipendce,nomater what the slaves do the albanians will take control
eventually
.if not of their territories of the whole FYROM state.of course
albanians dont consider themselves "macedonians".base on demographics
of the albanians it will take them 15 years to become majority in
fyrom.700 000(every next yuear the population enlarge)*3*15=will
surplus1.2-1.3 millions(syria with smae rythms of population
enlargment has more than double the population of syria in 20
years)whereas the population of slaves which is around 1.3 millions
doesnt increase but as all population of slaves of excommunist
countries is diclining.by the year 2020 albanians will be surerly the
majority of FYROM.and that will be the end of the socalled
"macedonians"quest.(albanians are not macedonians neither they seek
any relationship with the wonder dreams of slaves)
-FYROM is completly control by greek investment funds .it whole
economy is control by greek bussines and due to its geographical
potition its deppends to greece for comerce and trade.furthermore
slaves have many immigrants in greece that their total earnings
surplus the toral gdp of FYROM.so an ebargo and expeling of slaves of
greece(immigrants)will meen the end of fyrom as an economical
endity.(in my oppinion this should be done to those culture thiefs so
we can drive out many hudread of thousands slaves from fyromand make
wqorse the demographic problem of FYROM in favoir of the
albanians.(little albanians will leave since they are in a thirdworld
agricalturul status which make them tolerant over econoical harships)
-FYROM has little chancse of entering europe(not that they could in
their miserus financial situation)or other international organization
with out the aproval of greece.and greece dosent blind its selves by
allowing culture thievs to stabilize their miserus society.
bottom end is greece shouldnt even bother with those thridworld
semibarberians slaves.just allow demographics to solve once and for
all the "macedonians" illusion.i dont think that slaves will be
willing to be govern from alabanians and since thats where the
situation is going, either FYROM will be divided in two 60% slavic
territory and 40% albanians including skopje (albanias were 40% of
the city in early 90s and with their demographics will be a majority
if nopt already).take a hard look of kosovo in the 40s it was a 60%
40% balance in favoir of serbs in 60 years period it ended up to an
analogy of 90% 10% and after the albanians took over less than 1/3 of
the srbs remain in kossovo.same will happen to FYROM with mathimatical
accurency.
so why bother with thosebarberians?let them take out their own heart
by themselves.they odviously lounitics slaves dont understand that
they can afford to create more problems to theirselves making greece
(the only country that is willing to help them)a hostily country.
tommy
But I would like to point out that you have nationalist tendencies for an
akroaristeros. I thought akroaristeroi did not recognise nations, just
classes.
"akroaristeros" <papa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5dfe34a.0207...@posting.google.com...
June R Harton
> ancient Macedonians were not allowed in the Olympic games etc.
> So the conclusions are suspicious but the data should not be
>disputed.
Yes, everything about it should be disputed. It was 50% created
by West Bulgarians, it calls West Bulgarians 'Macedonians', it
contains false history and it notes several area of inadequate
testing at the same time it is correct in it's abysmal dullard
interpretations.
Do not be mislead into concluding anything but it is a scam.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
"tommy" <tro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d382fc3$0$822$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> As for the pdf file you present it has some stupid positions like the
> ancient Macedonians were not allowed in the Olympic games etc.
> So the conclusions are suspicious but the data should not be
>disputed.
Yes, everything about it should be disputed. It was 50% created
by West Bulgarians, it calls West Bulgarians 'Macedonians', it
contains much false history e.g."the ancient macedonians today
have a Slavic language", and it notes several areas of inadequate
testing at the same time claiming it is correct in it's abysmal dullard
interpretations.
Do not be mislead into concluding anything but that it is a scam.
Madrid Univ. should be deprived of all Spanish Govm't funding
at least till it exposes and fires everyone connected with the
apollon
Evge Spirit of Truth,I totally agree with you.