How Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian P.O.W's in October of 1944
I.Vitanov
In a previous posting, part of the "Human rights in RoM" thread, Mr
Karloukovski made mention of the story of how Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian
soldiers who had escaped and hid in the town, from the Germans, and the
role played by the priest Toma Kavaen. The heroic incident, in which the
people of Ohrid refused to surrender those whom they had welcomed with
bread and salt, according to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
their compatriots and liberators, despite the threat of their town being
destroyed by the German artillery which had surrounded it, has few
parallels in history. A more sincere declaration of the national
affiliation of the population of Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia at
the time, can be neither asked for nor given. The following account,
taken from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the resistance
of Macedonia against it" , may be of interest since the story has not
been much publicised and is not widely known.
A few biographical details about the author are in order, less he be
accused of propaganda.
Kosta Tsurnushanov (1903-1997), was born in the town of Prilep, in
Vardar Macedonia, in the year of the ilinden uprising. He was a friend
of the novelist Dimitar Talev, also from Prilep. Tsurnushanov was a
contemporary of all the significant events which took place in Macedonia
during the early half of this century. He witnessed the initial euphoria
of most of the Macedonian population at the prospect of its liberation at
the beggining of the first balkan war and its tragedy when most of
Macedonia found itself under a new foreign yoke following WW1 - so he was
well acqainted with the Macedonian reality before 1944. Tsurnushanov was
a member of MMTRO, the youth organisation of VMRO, which can boast among
its members such prominent Macedonian revolutionaries as Giuzelov,
Chkatrov - a close associate of Todor Alexandrov, and so on. He moved to
Sofia in the late 1930's and went back to Macedonia as a school inspector
in the period 1941-44, and then again returned to Sofia. It is
interesting that he has been at odds with all Bulgarian governments which
have been in power during the time he has lived in Bulgaria.
Tsurnushanov's many prolific writings, meticulous collection of sources
and eye witness accounts, reflecting the tragedy of the Macedonian
Bulgarians, have been solely his own initiative.
Spasiavane na Bulgarskite Voennoplennitsi
Kakto e isvestno, pri samoto istegliane na nashite voiski ot
Makedonia, Bulgaria obiavi voina na Germania. Zapochnaha voennite
deistvia mezhdu organiziranite germanski voenni chasti i razpokusanite
ottegliashti se bulgarski chasti. Oshte po putia za Bitolia ohridskite
chasti bivat obsadeni ot germantsite i pleneni okolo samia grad Bitolia,
dokato v Prilep se vodiat boeve mezhdu tamoshnia artileriiski polk pod
komandvaneto na polkovnik Mladenov i atakuvashtite germanski voiiski.
Polkovnik Drenski se samoybiva, vizhdaiki se v nevuzmozhnost da postroi
voiiskite si za boi.
Po sushtoto vreme samite germantsi se iztegliat v dve posoki - po
dolinata na Vardara i po golemia put - Solun - Lerin - Bitolia - Ohrid -
Debur - Tetovo - Kachanik. Dokato germanskoto ypravlenie oshte stoi v
Ohrid, prez purvite dni na Oktomvri 1944., v grada prisitga nova
germanska chast, koiato vodi sus sebe si goliama grupa bulgarski
plennitsi. Okolo 25 dushi ot tiah yspiavat da se ykriat v grada
blagodarenie na nedostatuchno strogata ohrana. Togava zapochva istinskoto
izpitanie za Ohrid. Danni za tova cherpim ot trima Ohridski grazhdani,
vzeli nai-aktivno uchastie v subitiata. Tova sa mesniat fotograf Petur
Savinov, negovata supruga Grete, avstriika, koiato izpulniava roliata na
prevodach, i uchitelkata Anastasia Bahchevanova Atanasova - po setne
prevodachka v radio Sofia, koiato pravela spisuka na daritelite na
zlatnitsi za otkupuvane na grada ot razrushavane. Petur i Grete
Savinovisled dosta godini biaha interviuirani ot Bulgarskata televizia po
tia subitia i te razkazaha pred vsichki bulgarski zriteli pulnata istina
za Ohridskoto zhertvoprinoshenie. Pisateliat Serafim Severniak puk
hodozhestveno opisa sushtoto v svoiata kniga "Ohridska legenda". Eto
nakratko istinata za stanaloto spored nashite zapiski v lichen razgovor
sus semeistvo Savinovi.
Sled kato germantsite otkrili, che sa im izbiagali plennitsite,
komendantut na grada, kapitanut ot morskite voiiski Baumgarten, poiskal
ot grazhdanite da my predadat plennitsite, koito sa ykrili, inache shte
nakazhe tselia grad. Spetsialno ot kmeta na grada Ilia Kotsarev poiskal
da mu predade 25 dushi komynisti kato zalozhnitsi sreshtu izbiagalite i
ukrilite se v grada 25 bulgarski voinnitsi. No Kotsarev - star bulgarski
patriot, otkazal da stori tova s dumite:
"Az moga da ymra, no ne moga da predam 25 dushi grazhdani i da
zatvoria 25 kushti!"
Togava pod formata na obrazuvane na stopanski komitet Baumgarten
poiskal ot grazhdanite da predostaviat 20 vidni ohridchani. Mezhdy
predstavenite bili i Manev, Kavaev, Filipchev, Ketskarov - direktor na
gimnaziata, i drugi. Nemetsut obiavil, che vsichki tia 20 dushi iavili li
se pri nego za posochenata tsel, shte zadurzhi za zalozhnitsi sreshtu
ykritite voinitsi. Dal srok plennitsite da budat predadeni do 9 chasa
vecherta, inache shte izgori grada. Pri hotela na Radichev i pri Chinara
bili postaveni protivoaeroplanni orudia za obstrelvane na grada. Samiat
grad bil obsaden ot vsichki strani.
Naredbite na komendanta bili suobshtavani na grazhdanite chrez
obshtinskoto barabanche. Barabanchikut bil pridruzhen ot edin-dvama
zalozhnitsi (mezhdu tiah samiat direktor Metodi Ketskarov) da vikat po
ulitsite: "Vseki koito e ykril bulgarski voinik ili znae koi e ukril, da
go predade, inache gradut shte bude izgoren". Sushtevremenno obache sus
znatsi i alegorichni dumi davali da se razbere, che ne biva tova da
praviat.
Pri tova polozhenie nastanala neimoverna trevoga po tselia grad,
koiato se prevurnala v panika, kogato se vizhdalo, che ot vsichki strani
se instalirat i se nasochvat orudia kum grada. Izumenite grazhdani
huknali da biagat, kato oblekli nai-novite si drehi, ta pone neshto da
imat spaseno ot tsennostite. No nikoi ne e predal nito edin voinik.
Kolkoto mogli, prehvurlili voinitsite vun ot grada s pomoshta na mesni
partizani, dokato obracha ne bil napulno zakliuchen. Ostanalite voinitsi
se krieli ty v nyzhnitsite, ty v slamenitsi po tavanite i prochee.
V nai-kritichnia moment, kogato zheni i detsa se subrali da plachat
pred Baumgarten, toi se smilil i otmenil zapovedta za izgariane na grada.
No nalozhil otkup: za vseki nevurnat plennik iskal polovin kilogram
zlato. No otkude tolkova zlato?
Sled mnogo molbi toi namalil symata na obshto 10 kg.
Triabva da otbelezhim, che vazhna rolia v izmolvaneto na
milosurdieto ot nemetsa izigrala Grete Savinova, koiato nadulgo shiroko
opisvala morala na ohridchani, apelirala za hymannost i s vsichkoto
krasnorechie na obichasht naroda chovek, makar i chuzhdenetc, yspiala da
doprinese za po-drug izhod ot opasnoto polozhenie.
Grazhdanstvoto s oblekchenie prielo poslednata forma na
predlozhenieto na Baumgarten. Zapochnal nai-vulnyvashtia moment: zhenite
donasiali nanizi zhultitsi, ostanali ot svatbite im, drugi davali
zlatnite si venchalni prusteni, obitsi i grivni... Verigata na dariteli
neprekusnato se tochelapred germanskia kapitan i davala poslednoto
skutano zlato. Edin bil obshtia vuzglas: "Se ke daime, bugarski voinik ne
davame!"
Po toia nachin bili subrani 840 napoleona - vun ot nakitite. No
syroviat nemetc oshte chakal. Nai-posle pristignal sveshtenik Toma Kavaen
i slozhil vurhy zlatnia kyp pozlatenia krust na cherkvata "Sv. Kliment" s
dumite: "Sveti Kliment ne vardel i pak ke ne vardit!"
Tova nakaralo da trepne surtseto na nemetsa. Toi se trognal i
naredil da budat vurnati na vsichki nakitite, napoleonite naredil da se
izpolzvat za zimnata pomosht. Kmetut Kotsarev predlozhil na Baumgarten po
edin napoleon za vseki voinik no toi otkazal. Togava Kotsarev my podaril
svoia prusten i germanetsut priel edinstveno nego za spomen.
Tova vulnyvashto subitie - zhertvoprinoshenieto na ohridchani,
stanalo na 13 i 14 oktomvri 1944g.
Sled istoricheskite dni prez vreme na vuzrazhdaneto, kogato
ohridskite bulgari do poslednia chovek pri provezhdaneto na plebistsita
(istiliama) za bulgarski vladika dali glasovete si za Bulgarska ekzarhia,
tozi velik den niama raven na sebe si po tsialata bulgarska zemia.
Drevniat bulgarski grad, stolitsata na Samuila, svetilishteto na
bulgurskata sveshtena drevnost, paziteliat na sveshtenite moshti na
Kliment Ohridski, gradut na Grigor Purlichev, Kyzman Shapkarev,
poprishteto na Dimitur Miladinov, ognishte na Ohridskoto suzkliatie ot
1881g. - e gorial s chistia plamuk na bulgarskata liubov i bulgarskoto
ime, velik, nedostizhim.
Vurhy fona na tozi razkaz neka se vidi sushtinata na mantaliteta na
makedonistite, koito sled izteglianeto na germanskite voiiski navlezli v
grada. Te turili ruka na zlatoto, arestyvali geroia kmet Ilia Kotsarev i
go osudili na 20 godini zatvor. Akogato se nameril chovek da napishe
kniga za toia podvig na ohridchani, skopskite makedonisti go dali pod
sud, uzh ne kazal istinata: ohridchani ne bili proiavili zhertva za
voinitsite, a te sami gi osvobodili ot germanski plen i prochee.
str 241-43
Kosta Tsurnushanov
Makedonizmut i Suprotivata na
Makedonia sreshtu nego
SOFIA 1992
Ivan Vitanov
Undergraduate
Department of Engineering
University of Warwick
Mr. T
In article <barracus.2...@ateam.com> barr...@ateam.com (Mr. T) writes:
>In article <3462FD...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> "I.Vitanov" <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> writes:
>>In a previous posting, part of the "Human rights in RoM" thread, Mr
>>Karloukovski made mention of the story of how Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian
>>soldiers who had escaped and hid in the town, from the Germans, and the
>>role played by the priest Toma Kavaen. The heroic incident, in which the
>>people of Ohrid refused to surrender those whom they had welcomed with
>>bread and salt, according to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
>>their compatriots and liberators, despite the threat of their town being
>>destroyed by the German artillery which had surrounded it, has few
>>parallels in history. A more sincere declaration of the national
>>affiliation of the population of Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia at
>>the time, can be neither asked for nor given. The following account,
>>taken from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the resistance
>>of Macedonia against it" , may be of interest since the story has not
>>been much publicised and is not widely known.
>This doesn't square with my read of history says this was not true. If you
>look at old films of German troops invading Russia, you will find that the
>Ukranian people welcomed them with open arms as their saviors from Russian
>tyrrany. The pictures of masses of Ukranians were very telling--they were
>"crossing" themselves as if the Germans were sent to them from God. The
>Germans, in turn, did not touch the Ukranians.
>The Macedonians and Ukranians have always been in a similar situation; both
>politically and religiously dominated by others. My take on what happened in
>WW2 was that most Macedonians (at least in the south) although apprehensive,
>welcomed the Germans in much the same way. My mother says everyone in her
>village was in awe of the Germans. My father also speaks about the Germans
>in a very complementary manner. The Germans returned the treatment in kind
>and did little against the Macedonian people.
>THE ATROCITIES WERE COMMITTED BY THE BULGARIANS.
If I am wrong about the Germans, please let me know. BUT I ALREADY KNOW I AM
RIGHT ABOUT THE BULGARIANS.
Mr. T
TRUE MACEDONIAN
Slavko Mangovski
I.Vitanov wrote:
>
Texts like the one below that we are bombarded daily raise questions
about
the Bulgarian people and their capabilities of becoming part of modern
Europe. Let's not forget that only a few years ago Bulgaria was the
most willing of the Soviet satellites and was indeed serioulsy
contemplating
union. Today everything is reversed and history is being rewritten and
the old ways of meddling in other state's affairs by feeding mindless
propaganda to all those willing to listen are renewed. The Bulgarian
people seem to be prone to brainwashing and even today they seem
incapable
of distinguishing between reality and dreams as I'll show in the
following example.
All these leads to instability in the Balkans and raises the
anti-Bulgarian
sentiments among Macedonians. Even a new war is not excluded as no
Macedonian
will stand being bullied about identity related matters. It is of my
special concern that Macedonian-Bulgarian relations are getting worse
by the day and I very much regret to say that I see no possibility
of improvement simply because I haven't seen any signs, official or not,
of willingness to face reality.
But let's look at the text, which is a typical example of propaganda
where German action against partisans is transformed into a
pro-Bulgarian
myth:
> In a previous posting, part of the "Human rights in RoM" thread, Mr
> Karloukovski made mention of the story of how Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian
> soldiers who had escaped and hid in the town, from the Germans, and the
> role played by the priest Toma Kavaen. The heroic incident, in which the
> people of Ohrid refused to surrender those whom they had welcomed with
> bread and salt, according to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
> their compatriots and liberators, despite the threat of their town being
> destroyed by the German artillery which had surrounded it, has few
> parallels in history. A more sincere declaration of the national
> affiliation of the population of Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia at
> the time, can be neither asked for nor given. The following account,
> taken from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the resistance
> of Macedonia against it" ,
I wonder how it would sound if somebody wrote a book titled "The
Bulgarian
idea and the resistance of Bulgaria against it" or "The Greek idea and
the
resistance of Greece against it."
may be of interest since the story has not
> been much publicised and is not widely known.
> Chkatrov - a close associate of Todor Alexandrov, and so on. He moved to
> Sofia in the late 1930's and went back to Macedonia as a school inspector
> in the period 1941-44, and then again returned to Sofia. It is
> interesting that he has been at odds with all Bulgarian governments which
> have been in power during the time he has lived in Bulgaria.
At odd with Bulgarian governments yet in their employ as school
inspector?
> Tsurnushanov's many prolific writings, meticulous collection of sources
> and eye witness accounts, reflecting the tragedy of the Macedonian
> Bulgarians, have been solely his own initiative.
The Bulgarian govt was against that, of course.
>
> Spasiavane na Bulgarskite Voennoplennitsi
>
> Kakto e isvestno, pri samoto istegliane na nashite voiski ot
> Makedonia, Bulgaria obiavi voina na Germania. Zapochnaha voennite
> deistvia mezhdu organiziranite germanski voenni chasti i razpokusanite
> ottegliashti se bulgarski chasti. Oshte po putia za Bitolia ohridskite
> chasti bivat obsadeni ot germantsite i pleneni okolo samia grad Bitolia,
> dokato v Prilep se vodiat boeve mezhdu tamoshnia artileriiski polk pod
> komandvaneto na polkovnik Mladenov i atakuvashtite germanski voiiski.
> Polkovnik Drenski se samoybiva, vizhdaiki se v nevuzmozhnost da postroi
> voiiskite si za boi.
>
According to this description the partisan army didn't exist and we have
poor Bulgarian soldiers battling their yesterday allies.
> Po sushtoto vreme samite germantsi se iztegliat v dve posoki - po
> dolinata na Vardara i po golemia put - Solun - Lerin - Bitolia - Ohrid -
> Debur - Tetovo - Kachanik. Dokato germanskoto ypravlenie oshte stoi v
> Ohrid, prez purvite dni na Oktomvri 1944., v grada prisitga nova
> germanska chast, koiato vodi sus sebe si goliama grupa bulgarski
> plennitsi. Okolo 25 dushi ot tiah yspiavat da se ykriat v grada
> blagodarenie na nedostatuchno strogata ohrana. Togava zapochva istinskoto
> izpitanie za Ohrid. Danni za tova cherpim ot trima Ohridski grazhdani,
> vzeli nai-aktivno uchastie v subitiata. Tova sa mesniat fotograf Petur
> Savinov, negovata supruga Grete, avstriika, koiato izpulniava roliata na
> prevodach, i uchitelkata Anastasia Bahchevanova Atanasova
the teacher was imported from Bulgaria, obviously.
- po setne
> prevodachka v radio Sofia, koiato pravela spisuka na daritelite na
> zlatnitsi za otkupuvane na grada ot razrushavane. Petur i Grete
> Savinovisled dosta godini biaha interviuirani ot Bulgarskata televizia po
> tia subitia i te razkazaha pred vsichki bulgarski zriteli pulnata istina
> za Ohridskoto zhertvoprinoshenie. Pisateliat Serafim Severniak puk
> hodozhestveno opisa sushtoto v svoiata kniga "Ohridska legenda". Eto
> nakratko istinata za stanaloto spored nashite zapiski v lichen razgovor
> sus semeistvo Savinovi.
>
> Sled kato germantsite otkrili, che sa im izbiagali plennitsite,
> komendantut na grada, kapitanut ot morskite voiiski Baumgarten, poiskal
> ot grazhdanite da my predadat plennitsite, koito sa ykrili, inache shte
> nakazhe tselia grad. Spetsialno ot kmeta na grada Ilia Kotsarev poiskal
> da mu predade 25 dushi komynisti kato zalozhnitsi sreshtu izbiagalite i
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the the most obvious lie that destroys the whole story: the
Germans
don't ask for the Bulgarian soldiers but ask for 25 communists as
hostages,
upon which the mayor, allegedly a pro-Bulgarian and surely
anti-communist,
refuses to give. Knowing what was going durinf the war the Germans would
just
shoot the mayor especially if we assume, as the story wants us to
beleive,
that the Germaans were dealing with a "Bulgarian," and therefore a
recent
enemy, national.
> ukrilite se v grada 25 bulgarski voinnitsi. No Kotsarev - star bulgarski
> patriot, otkazal da stori tova s dumite:
> "Az moga da ymra, no ne moga da predam 25 dushi grazhdani i da
> zatvoria 25 kushti!"
> Togava pod formata na obrazuvane na stopanski komitet Baumgarten
> poiskal ot grazhdanite da predostaviat 20 vidni ohridchani. Mezhdy
The writer wants us to beleive that the German, after asking all that
and being,
refused, proposed a formation of an economic council made out of the
most
prominent Ohridians!?? At the end of the war?
Only idiots will beleive such stories.
> predstavenite bili i Manev, Kavaev, Filipchev, Ketskarov - direktor na
> gimnaziata, i drugi. Nemetsut obiavil, che vsichki tia 20 dushi iavili li
> se pri nego za posochenata tsel, shte zadurzhi za zalozhnitsi sreshtu
> ykritite voinitsi. Dal srok plennitsite da budat predadeni do 9 chasa
> vecherta, inache shte izgori grada. Pri hotela na Radichev i pri Chinara
> bili postaveni protivoaeroplanni orudia za obstrelvane na grada. Samiat
> grad bil obsaden ot vsichki strani.
All those who know Ohrid can testify that placing anti-aircrcaft guns
for
the purpose of shelling the city would only result in shelling few
neighbouring
houses with the gunners being killed by the debris.
>
> Naredbite na komendanta bili suobshtavani na grazhdanite chrez
> obshtinskoto barabanche. Barabanchikut bil pridruzhen ot edin-dvama
> zalozhnitsi (mezhdu tiah samiat direktor Metodi Ketskarov) da vikat po
> ulitsite: "Vseki koito e ykril bulgarski voinik ili znae koi e ukril, da
> go predade, inache gradut shte bude izgoren". Sushtevremenno obache sus
> znatsi i alegorichni dumi davali da se razbere, che ne biva tova da
> praviat.
So the Germans annoinced that inhabitants either contribute gold or
they'll
burn the city. For all normal people this will mean that the people
tried
to save their lives. For our Bulgarian friends this means Bulgarian
patriotism. Go figure.
[garbage del]
>
> Vurhy fona na tozi razkaz neka se vidi sushtinata na mantaliteta na
> makedonistite, koito sled izteglianeto na germanskite voiiski navlezli v
> grada. Te turili ruka na zlatoto, arestyvali geroia kmet Ilia Kotsarev i
> go osudili na 20 godini zatvor.
This says the macedonists arrested the mayor, the same one that defended
them. Such cruelty! One problem though: when did Tito create the
macedonists?
Before, during or after the war?
A question lingers: how can people beleive such stupid stories? Answer
is:
if they can beleive that Stalin was a semi-God for 40 years they can
beleive in everything.
--
Slavko Mangovski
http://www.gate.net/~mango
Slavko Mangovski
Mr. T wrote:
[del]
>
> >This doesn't square with my read of history says this was not true. If you
> >look at old films of German troops invading Russia, you will find that the
> >Ukranian people welcomed them with open arms as their saviors from Russian
> >tyrrany. The pictures of masses of Ukranians were very telling--they were
> >"crossing" themselves as if the Germans were sent to them from God. The
> >Germans, in turn, did not touch the Ukranians.
>
> >The Macedonians and Ukranians have always been in a similar situation; both
> >politically and religiously dominated by others. My take on what happened in
> >WW2 was that most Macedonians (at least in the south) although apprehensive,
> >welcomed the Germans in much the same way. My mother says everyone in her
> >village was in awe of the Germans. My father also speaks about the Germans
> >in a very complementary manner. The Germans returned the treatment in kind
> >and did little against the Macedonian people.
>
> >THE ATROCITIES WERE COMMITTED BY THE BULGARIANS.
>
> If I am wrong about the Germans, please let me know. BUT I ALREADY KNOW I AM
> RIGHT ABOUT THE BULGARIANS.
>
> Mr. T
> TRUE MACEDONIAN
You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told stories that Macedonians
hugged
and kissed the German soldiers who released them from Greek jails so
that many
Macedonians had bruised foreheads from the German's helmets.
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <3463BE...@gate.net> Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> writes:
<snip>
>You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told stories that Macedonians
>hugged and kissed the German soldiers who released them from Greek jails so
>that many Macedonians had bruised foreheads from the German's helmets.
Amazing! German NAZI soldiers released 'Macedonians' from Greek jails!!!!!!
And the proud, democratic, freedom-loving 'Macedonians' 'hugged and kissed'
them so hard that they had 'bruised foreheads from the Germans' helmets'!!!!
Do you know what Slavonic-speaking Macedonians had to do in order to escape
prison/jail? DECLARE THEMSELVES BULGARIANS BY NATIONALITY!
We are talking about the creme de la creme of humanity here, aren't we? A
group of people who had been imprisoned for being Communists by the Metaxas
regime, sold their souls to the alleged (ad nauseam here) Bulgarian 'devil' so
that they can SAVE THEIR HIDES, leaving their supposed comrades to rot in the
same jails, no under Nazi and quisling government control.
I can't believe you jockers are pretending that the Nazi German soldiers were
'civilized' and did not commit atrocities in Greece! The streets of Athens and
Piraeus were littered with human corpses of people dying of starvation, that
had to be picked up by a municipal cart and mass buried, entire male
populations of villages allegedly harboring resistance fighters were
fire-squaded en masse, little kids had their arms broken in cold blood by
'civilized' German Nazi soldiers for daring to pick up a loaf of bread that
had fallen of a German lawry, and so on and so forth, and we FOOLS are waxing
lyrical about great Nazi German 'liberators'. And you are not ashamed to write
such things down.
My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!
>--
>Slavko Mangovski
>http://www.gate.net/~mango
"And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the other peoples
in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
share in nature."
Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
Regards,
Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski (ma...@gate.net) wrote yesterday:
>
> I.Vitanov wrote:
>
> Texts like the one below that we are bombarded daily raise
> questions about the Bulgarian people and their capabilities of
> becoming part of modern Europe.
What raises questions is the offer of a commentary in the
absence of both the actual text and a criticism point by point;
along with the generalization attempted over a whole people.
You have attempted this before Mangovski and you were wrong
then... and -sure enough- you are wrong now.
> Let's not forget that only a few years ago Bulgaria was the
> most willing of the Soviet satellites and was indeed serioulsy
> contemplating union.
With whom? In any case, for the benefit of the rest around here
please do provide your sources on what Bulgarians thought.
How many Bulgarians told you what you claim? And, what does it
matter in this case?
>
> Today everything is reversed and history is being rewritten
""""""""""
'Everything' seems general and encompassing enough. Would
'eveything' be inclusive of (if not limited to) what is
produced in Skopje as well?
> and the old ways of meddling in other state's affairs by
> feeding mindless propaganda to all those willing to listen
> are renewed.
Mangovski, if you are saying this upon reflecting on the
mass and quality of postings addressed to soc.culture.greek,
we'll have to take you seriously, man.
> The Bulgarian people seem to be prone to brainwashing and even
> today they seem incapable of distinguishing between reality and
> dreams as I'll show in the following example.
Perhaps they are reading too much of their neighbors' things
and other FYROM-articles, and the thing is getting contagious... !
But don't get exited with Bulgarians. If you compare them to
those weirdoes who wonder around signing as 'proud
descendants' and all (including your frind, Mr.T) they look fine!
> All these leads to instability in the Balkans and raises the
> anti-Bulgarian sentiments among Macedonians.
Better speak for yourself. As to who is Macedonian and why and
how and what he/she feels is whole other issue. And please don't
invoke stability in the Balkans because the 'argument' is quite
amusing, unless you are advocating in favor of returning to the
previous and familiar state of affairs, such as the reconstitu-
tion of Yugoslavia.
> Even a new war is not excluded
>
Oh, calm down and take your prescription! You scare nobody. I
have been perusing regularly and haven't seen much bellicose
intentions.
> as no Macedonian will stand being bullied about identity
> related matters. It is of my special concern that Macedonian-
> Bulgarian relations are getting worse by the day and I very
> much regret to say that I see no possibility of improvement
> simply because I haven't seen any signs, official or not,
> of willingness to face reality.
One day its the Greeks, now the Bulgarians. One wonders if the
one who has trouble with both is the party with the real
problem.
> But let's look at the text, which is a typical example of
> propaganda where German action against partisans is
> transformed into a pro-Bulgarian myth:
>
> > In a previous posting, part of the "Human rights in RoM"
> > thread, Mr Karloukovski made mention of the story of how
> > Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian soldiers who had escaped and hid in
> > the town, from the Germans, and the role played by the priest
> > Toma Kavaen.
Men of the cloth may surprise you but indeed they do such things...
> > The heroic incident, in which the people of Ohrid refused to
> > surrender those whom they had welcomed with bread and salt,
> > according to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
> > their compatriots and liberators, despite the threat of their
> > town being destroyed by the German artillery which had
> > surrounded it, has few parallels in history. A more sincere
> > declaration of the national affiliation of the population of
> > Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia at the time, can be
> > neither asked for nor given. The following account, taken
> > from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the
> > resistance of Macedonia against it" ,
>
> I wonder how it would sound if somebody wrote a book titled
> "The Bulgarian idea and the resistance of Bulgaria against
> it" or "The Greek idea and the resistance of Greece against
> it."
You worry about nothing, and the analogy is not as successful.
You see, we are all somewhat versed with terms and the thing is
well understood.
If Josif Grezlovski, for example, can post the "Definition of a
Makedonist" on February of 1996 and "Nova Makedonija" of Skopje,
can print the word 'Makedonist' on its Apr/27 1996 paper
(according to the a couple of articles reproduced by Boris
Docevski on May of 1996), and John Mangov can follow up two
months later accounting (or not) for Macedonians and Macedonists
in the Carnegie Commission... don't worry: The thing 'flies' fine.
Oh well, the rest is in Bulgarian which I can't read, but
someone else does very well (as I see!). And to think that it is
often time portrayed as so alien a language by people originating
from the upper Vardar...
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
John Prodromidis
> You are aboslutely right, Mr. T.
Ooooh. Isn't that nice? Mangovski and Balaloski agree!
>
> I've been told stories that Macedonians hugged and
> kissed the German soldiers who released them from
> Greek jails so that many Macedonians had bruised
> foreheads from the German's helmets.
In the other article of the same thread you, Mangov-
ski, did not want us to believe that the Germans at
the end of the war might propose the formation of
councils made out of the most prominent locals (which
the did -by the way- in former Italian territories),
and you added that only idiots would believe such
stories...
And now you come along and try to sell to us a story
that the Nazis, at the very beginning of the war (and
thus in no way compromised out of desperation or ac-
climation), would stay still to be hugged and kissed by
.... men (presumably dirty imprisoned man and of dubious
'Aryanism'), and actually stayed still long enough and
in uniform wearing their helmets, until the 'others' got
bruises for hugging them and kissing them so much! And
all this may have taken place in the presence of other
German soldiers or even officers overseeing the release!
...
I strongly suspect that the people who sold you the
'story' did not even meet those Germans, and your
fanaticism blinds you.
I .VITANOV
Mr. T wrote:
>
> In article <barracus.2...@ateam.com> barr...@ateam.com (Mr. T) writes:
>
> >In article <3462FD...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> "I.Vitanov" <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> writes:
>
> >>Karloukovski made mention of the story of how Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian
> >>soldiers who had escaped and hid in the town, from the Germans, and the
> >>people of Ohrid refused to surrender those whom they had welcomed with
> >>bread and salt, according to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
> >>their compatriots and liberators, despite the threat of their town being
> >>destroyed by the German artillery which had surrounded it, has few
> >>parallels in history. A more sincere declaration of the national
> >>affiliation of the population of Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia at
> >>the time, can be neither asked for nor given. The following account,
> >>taken from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the resistance
> >>been much publicised and is not widely known.
>
> >look at old films of German troops invading Russia, you will find that the
> >Ukranian people welcomed them with open arms as their saviors from Russian
> >tyrrany. The pictures of masses of Ukranians were very telling--they were
> >"crossing" themselves as if the Germans were sent to them from God. The
> >Germans, in turn, did not touch the Ukranians.
>
> >The Macedonians and Ukranians have always been in a similar situation; both
> >politically and religiously dominated by others. My take on what happened in
> >WW2 was that most Macedonians (at least in the south) although apprehensive,
> >welcomed the Germans in much the same way. My mother says everyone in her
> >village was in awe of the Germans. My father also speaks about the Germans
> >in a very complementary manner. The Germans returned the treatment in kind
> >and did little against the Macedonian people.
>
Your analogy between Macedonia and Ukraine may be true, to a certain
extent, as far as the Germans are concerned, but is otherwise incorrect.
The Germans were initially hailed as saviours, by the majority of the
Macedonian population, because they had annihilated the hated Yugoslav
regime and more importantly they were seen as facilitating the union
between Macedonia and Bulgaria in the near future. If the Germans, to
begin with, "returned the treatment in kind and did little against the
Macedonian people" it was because they encountered little open hostility
and they viewed most of the population as Bulgarian, that is, one
belonging to an allied country. Some people in Macedonia may well have
been impressed by the disciplined, smartly-uniformed wehrmacht soldiers
but how is this relevant to the Ohrid story? You are confusing the issue
by concentrating on the attitude of the population towards the Germans.
The extract from K.Tsurnushanov, conjured up via eye-witness accounts,
clearly told of how the people of Ohrid were prepared to sacrifice their
town and later many kilograms of their gold rather than surrender 25
Bulgarian soldiers to the Germans, making evident their Bulgarian
national consciousness - you have not adressed this.
Furthermore, after Yugoslavia collapsed in a matter of days before the
German onslaught, across Macedonia, Bulgarian action commitees sprang up
in nearly every town and took the local administrations in their own
hands. The founding declarations of the commitees were abundant with
thousands of signutures of the local population. The principal purpose of
these commitees was to campaign for the integration of Macedonia into
Bulgaria. The first such commitee was founded by Nikola Pavlov, a lawyer
and former member of MMTRO. In Skopje on the 13th of April 1941 the
Central Bulgarian Action Commitee was founded.
Have you heard that areas of Macedonia initially occupied by the Italians
were later returned to Bulgaria by plebiscites in which the at least two
thirds of the population had to vote in favour.
You mention old documentary films, there are plenty which show the
greeting extended to the Bulgarian troops, verging on mass euphoria, when
they entered Vardar Macedonia. Why would the population react like this,
given that they had already been liberated by the Germans, unless they
felt themselves to be Bulgarians?
How do the above facts "square" with your "read of history"?
> >THE ATROCITIES WERE COMMITTED BY THE BULGARIANS.
>
> If I am wrong about the Germans, please let me know. BUT I ALREADY KNOW I AM
> RIGHT ABOUT THE BULGARIANS.
>
How do you "already know" that you are "right about the Bulgarians", as
you somewhat dogmatically put it? Can you elaborate on this please by
quoting reliable sources, statistics etc. Besides, why would the people
of Ohrid readilly make such sacrifices to save those who had - supposedly
- commited atrocities against them?
The reality is that during the 3 years of Bulgarian administration more
was done for Macedonia than at any previous time in its modern history. A
colossal sum of money, amounting to 42% of the Bulgarian budget was spent
on building roads, railways, schools, factories etc in Macedonia. A
university was created at Skopje and many cultural institutions were
founded. Since the slav-Macedonian population saw itself and was viewed
by the Bulgarian administration as Bulgarian it is not likely that it
felt any apparent shortcominings of the regime to a greater extent than
the slav population, or that of any other ethnic extraction, in Bulgaria
proper. However, it is absurd to talk about atrocities being committed by
the Bulgarians against those they felt were their own people,
particularly as there is absolutely no evidence! Hence, the insignificant
size of the partisan movement in Macedonia, which consisted mainly of
srbomans and foreign elements.
Infact, any atrocities committed at the time were perpetrated by the
Partisans. When Bulgaria entered the war and its army, with
characteristic bravery and tenacity, started driving the Germans out of
Macedonia, the partisans followed closely behind and after entering each,
already emptied-of-Germans town, they proclaimed they had 'liberated' it.
They then began spewing forth anything their imaginations would permit
about Bulgarian 'atrocities', burned Bulgarian books and conducted
show trials and mass executions of those they viewed as dangerous
bulgarophils. Specific cases and eye-witness accounts can be cited at any
time, if required.
> Mr. T
> TRUE MACEDONIAN
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
>I can't believe you jockers are pretending that the Nazi German soldiers were
>'civilized' and did not commit atrocities in Greece! The streets of Athens and
>Piraeus were littered with human corpses of people dying of starvation, that
>had to be picked up by a municipal cart and mass buried, entire male
>populations of villages allegedly harboring resistance fighters were
>fire-squaded en masse, little kids had their arms broken in cold blood by
>'civilized' German Nazi soldiers for daring to pick up a loaf of bread that
>had fallen of a German lawry, and so on and so forth, and we FOOLS are waxing
>lyrical about great Nazi German 'liberators'. And you are not ashamed to write
>such things down.
>My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
>filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!
I DONT CARE WHAT THE NAZIS DID TO YOU FILTHY PIECES OF GARBAGE. AS FAR AS I'M
CONCERNED, THE MORE ATROCITIES THAT WERE COMMITTED AGAINST THE GREEKS, THE
BETTER.
MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT IN GREECE. MAYBE THEY BEAT UP ON THE SERBS, BUT THE
FACT REMAINS THAT THEY LEFT THE MACEDONIANS ALONE
Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
TRUE MACEDONIAN
Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <clint.207...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada> cl...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada (Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway) writes:
Hi Hope,
I thought you would enjoy the following pearl of wisdom by your 'defender'
Daniel Balaloski in his latest incarnation . . .
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <3463BE...@gate.net>, ma...@gate.net says...
>Mr. T wrote:
>> >The Macedonians and Ukranians have always been in a similar situation; both
>> >politically and religiously dominated by others. My take on what happened in
>> >WW2 was that most Macedonians (at least in the south) although apprehensive,
>> >welcomed the Germans in much the same way. My mother says everyone in her
>> >village was in awe of the Germans. My father also speaks about the Germans
>> >in a very complementary manner. The Germans returned the treatment in kind
>> >and did little against the Macedonian people.
>> >THE ATROCITIES WERE COMMITTED BY THE BULGARIANS.
>> If I am wrong about the Germans, please let me know. BUT I ALREADY KNOW I AM
>> RIGHT ABOUT THE BULGARIANS.
>> Mr. T
>> TRUE MACEDONIAN
>You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told stories that Macedonians
>hugged
>and kissed the German soldiers who released them from Greek jails so
>that many
>Macedonians had bruised foreheads from the German's helmets.
So the Macedonians hugged and kissed the German soldiers when they arrived,...
...
hugged and kissed the Bulgarian soldiers when they arrived, ...
...
hid and rescued Bulgarian P.O.W.s when they departured....
I just wonder how Macedonians had the time to perform their other sacred duty - the
anti-fascist struggle?
Or the Mac. partisans (as their Bulg. counterparts) have the special ability
to multiply themselves on certain book pages? ;-))) Under favorauble conditions?
Indeed, the bilogical abilities of Homo communisticuses know no limits.
>--
>Slavko Mangovski
>http://www.gate.net/~mango
And what about you, Sir. Did you hug and kiss, or you just multiplied
yourself?
Or both?
Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski
------------------------------------
Babait kah'r suratl'
http://members.tropod.com/~Groznijat e-mail: e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk
Josif Grezlovski
--Instead of re-building the few remaining bridges between these two
seemingly close peoples, they are bent on distroying them. But, then,
again, when was the last time that Bulgarite "imaha" foreign policy?
Most of the Bulgarians that I know, and I know quite a few, are
cognizant of the fact that the present day politician are myopic to the
core. Diplomacy has never been their forte, and the very few points that
they can score is by reviving the old-faded dream of "Bulgarshtinata
v'Makedonija".
It is, undoubtedly, monotonous and boringly incomprehensible to deal
with topics of this nature. Let them live with their dreams of
yesterdays!!!!
Vsichko hubavo byganjos!
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Vassil Karloukovski
>--
>Slavko Mangovski
>http://www.gate.net/~mango
And what about you, Sir. Did you hugg and kiss, or you just multiplied
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <34648A...@gate.net>, joe...@gate.net says...
>Slavko Mangovski wrote:
...
>> A question lingers: how can people beleive such stupid stories? Answer
>> is:
>> if they can beleive that Stalin was a semi-God for 40 years they can
>> beleive in everything.
Heh, another expert on the Macedonian and Balkan matters - Mr. Grezljovski,
appeared to say how mean and stupid the Bulgarians are, but not commenting at
all on the rescuing of the Bulgarian P.O.W.'s by the people of Ohrid in 1944.
Perhaps beacuse he also didn't know anything about that event.
>--Instead of re-building the few remaining bridges between these two
>seemingly close peoples,
'The few remaining bridges', 'close peoples'? What are you talking about?
'Bugarash' is constantly used in RoM media to ostracize your own intelectuals,
to blame them as traitors. Bulgaria, itself is associated with everything
vile, dirty, underdeveloped. Look at the latest issue of Makedonsko Sonce,
( http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce177/tekst7_be/tekst7be.htm )
where your honoured prof. Belchev (the same who wrote about the Slavic language
of Iliad) explains how the Macedonian Emperor Vassili II after defeating
the Macedonian king Samuel, called himself Bulgaroktonos in order to please
the Greeks, to confirm his servility to Byzantium and to denigrate and
humiliate Samuel. Because, Belchev explains, the very word 'Bulgar' meant
'rabble, riff-raff and rubbish, garbage', giving birth to the epithet 'vulgar'
meaning 'boorish, dolt, cabbage-head and other strong epithets'(I couldn't
better translate into English his words 'tikvarski, prostashki, opincharski').
The inventiveness of the MANU's employees can never be underestimated, but I
doubt he would venture appearing on some international scholarly conference with
statements like that. They are obviously 'for internal use' only.
they are bent on distroying them. But, then,
>again, when was the last time that Bulgarite "imaha" foreign policy?
> Most of the Bulgarians that I know, and I know quite a few, are
>cognizant of the fact that the present day politician are myopic to the
>core. Diplomacy has never been their forte, and the very few points that
>they can score is by reviving the old-faded dream of "Bulgarshtinata
>v'Makedonija".
And who says that? Who dares to characterize in such a way the presently rulling
democratic government and president of Bulgaria, elected in democratic and free
elections?
A citizen of RoM !? - the last chunk (together with SRY) of dead Red ice in
post-glacial Europe, which didn't succeed to hold even a single election
campaign, not accopmnied by frauds, government interference in the public
media and necessity of re-elections?
> It is, undoubtedly, monotonous and boringly incomprehensible to deal
>with topics of this nature. Let them live with their dreams of
>yesterdays!!!!
>Vsichko hubavo byganjos!
I didn't understand although what in the whole story posted by Mr Vitanov caused
your grumbling against the Bulgarians. You should 'blame' the citizens of Ohrid,
not us. Or better SHOOT YOURSELVES IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE REALITIES !!!
Radeff
>You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told stories that Macedonians
>hugged and kissed the German soldiers who released them from Greek jails so
>that many Macedonians had bruised foreheads from the German's helmets.
<<Amazing! German NAZI soldiers released 'Macedonians' from Greek jails!!!!!!
And the proud, democratic, freedom-loving 'Macedonians' 'hugged and kissed'
them so hard that they had 'bruised foreheads from the Germans' helmets'!!!!>>
Have you not understood that any port in a storm is welcome? Pride has the
tendency to fall in the need to survive. Does this ring true, at all? Freedom
and democray - something that hasn't been ours for centuries. Its not even
here now in this new world order.
No, I have no knowledge of the above event. I do know that the young children
in my families would leave their own bundled lunches for the Italian and
German POW chain gangs under bushes at the roadside. You see, this was not
done as consorting with the enemy. It was done in the global meaning of he
has to be some mother's son, some one's brother, and someone's husband and
father.
<<Do you know what Slavonic-speaking Macedonians had to do in order to escape
prison/jail? DECLARE THEMSELVES BULGARIANS BY NATIONALITY!>>
Thats why we can't shake off the label and its the means of others wrongful
eternal declarations of our roots. Survival is all that it was done for.
<<We are talking about the creme de la creme of humanity here, aren't we? A
group of people who had been imprisoned for being Communists by the Metaxas
regime, sold their souls to the alleged (ad nauseam here) Bulgarian 'devil' so
that they can SAVE THEIR HIDES, leaving their supposed comrades to rot in the
same jails, no under Nazi and quisling government control.>>
One devil or the other made no great difference. Being freed from a confinement
did make a difference and it gave a greater chance for survival and
continuation of the family.
<<I can't believe you jockers are pretending that the Nazi German soldiers were
'civilized' and did not commit atrocities in Greece! The streets of Athens and
Piraeus were littered with human corpses of people dying of starvation, that
had to be picked up by a municipal cart and mass buried, entire male
populations of villages allegedly harboring resistance fighters were
fire-squaded en masse, little kids had their arms broken in cold blood by
'civilized' German Nazi soldiers for daring to pick up a loaf of bread that
had fallen of a German lawry, and so on and so forth, and we FOOLS are waxing
lyrical about great Nazi German 'liberators'. And you are not ashamed to write
such things down.>>
There is no pretense here as to the deeds of the Nazis. You just cannot
understand what it takes to survive. Nor do you understand how many times this
scene was repeated with other wars and upheavals by my people.
A sociology question - where *all* German soldiers as nasty or atrocious as
their compatriots? Do you believe ther may have been some who still had some
ounce of compassion?
<<My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!>>
Sorry for your family's experiences. At the same time, would you send an
invitation to all of us to recount our own families' experiences by the Nazis?
At least your father and uncle did not die. Btw, you can starve in America
today, too.
HRA
>--
>Slavko Mangovski
>http://www.gate.net/~mango
"And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the other peoples
in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
share in nature."
Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
Regards,
Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000080" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>
Radeff
[del]
<<Look at the latest issue of Makedonsko Sonce,
( http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce177/tekst7_be/tekst7be.htm )
where your honoured prof. Belchev (the same who wrote about the Slavic language
of Iliad) explains how the Macedonian Emperor Vassili II after defeating
the Macedonian king Samuel, called himself Bulgaroktonos in order to please
the Greeks, to confirm his servility to Byzantium and to denigrate and
humiliate Samuel. Because, Belchev explains, the very word 'Bulgar' meant
'rabble, riff-raff and rubbish, garbage', giving birth to the epithet 'vulgar'
meaning 'boorish, dolt, cabbage-head and other strong epithets'(I couldn't
better translate into English his words 'tikvarski, prostashki,
opincharski').>>
Now, finally, the fact of this Bulgarian man not being able to recognize the
Macedonian word for pumpkin will send the message that our languages are not
at all the same.
<<I didn't understand although what in the whole story posted by Mr Vitanov
caused
your grumbling against the Bulgarians. You should 'blame' the citizens of
Ohrid,
not us. Or better SHOOT YOURSELVES IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE REALITIES !!!>>
The reality is very simple. Those Macedonians from Ohrid tried to save human
beings from the atrocities that would have certainly occurred if they gave
them up. It mattered no who they were, where they came from, etc. As I often
heard it recounted, "edna dusha" (one life) and the connotations can only be
understood by a Macedonian. I, for one, applaud those citizens for their
bravery.
HRA
GuN. sGt. ToMa HiGhWaYeV
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway wrote:
> In article <karageor.27...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) writes:
>
> >My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
> >filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!
>
> I DONT CARE WHAT THE NAZIS DID TO YOU FILTHY PIECES OF GARBAGE. AS FAR AS I'M
> CONCERNED, THE MORE ATROCITIES THAT WERE COMMITTED AGAINST THE GREEKS, THE
> BETTER.
>
> MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT IN GREECE. MAYBE THEY BEAT UP ON THE SERBS, BUT THE
> FACT REMAINS THAT THEY LEFT THE MACEDONIANS ALONE
>
> Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
> TRUE MACEDONIAN
> Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
BALGAROSKI,
THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ABOUT YOU!!! ALTHOUGH YOU ARE AN OVERQUALIFIED
CALLUS-ASSED LOW-LIFE PIECE OF TITOIST-INSPIRED-ETHNOPLASM-SOURCED
MID-WESTERN NEO-HITLERITE KKK WHITE TRASH, YOU ALWAYS SPEAK WHAT'S IN
YOUR FYROMIAN NAZI-TO-THE-CORE ARYAN666 LITTLE HEART. AND I LIKE THAT IN
A MAN!!! NO FRILLS -- WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!!
UNLIKE YOUR PATHETIC BRETHREN WHO TRY TO STITCH TOGETHER A FEEBLE-MINDED
HISTORY FOR THEIR TIN-POT TENANT-FARMING HEROIN-PEDDLING BANANA
REPUBLIC, RAPACIOUSLY THIEVING FROM ANCIENT GREEK TO MEDIEVAL BULGARIAN
HISTORIES, ALSO PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS 'FIGHTERS AGAINST NAZISM' ALONG
THE WAY -- ON THE BACK OF THE REAL SERBIAN STRUGGLE AGAINST THE KRAUTS
-- YOU SHOOT FROM THE HIP AND BARK OUT THE TRUTH -- THAT THE NAZIS WERE
YOUR BENEFACTORS. YOU FYROMIANS WERE REALLY NAZI
SYMPATHIZERS/COLLABORATORS ALL ALONG!!! AND AS WE NOW KNOW, FROM EVEN
BEFORE THE WAR (SEE BELOW)!!! THAT IS WHY THE NAZIS DID NOT TOUCH YOU!!!
YOU WERE MODEL NAZI CITIZENS!!!
BUT BECAUSE YOU GOT OFF LIGHTLY IN THE LAST WAR BY TYPICALLY SELLING
YOUR UNPRINCIPLED TENANT FARMING MONGOLOSKI ASSES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER
(FIVE YEARS LATER YOU WERE ALL HAPPILY SINGING THE INTERNATIONALE), WE
WILL MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT SO LUCKY THE NEXT TIME ROUND!!! CARAVAN TO
KAZAKHSTAN ANY WAY YOU CAN!!!!! BEFORE IT'S ALL TOO LATE.....
HiGhWaYeV
TRUE DE-TITO-FIED DE-BRAINWASHED WESTERN BULGARIAN
SON OF FILIPOV AND ALEXANDROV
P.S. FROM A PREVIOUS POST.....(NOTE BALGAROSKI'S DEFIANT AND UNREPENTANT
FYROMIAN
NAZI RESPONSE. AT LEAST HE'S HONEST!!!):
Predator wrote:
>In article <344942BB...@cYbOrGoV.cOm
>tErMiNaToV <tErMi...@cYbOrGoV.cOm> writes:
>>FYROM=NAZI SYMPATHIZERS/COLLABORATORS
>>
>>"By the 1930s, 'Macedonian' terrorists were hiring themselves out to
>>radical groups throughout Europe -- in particular, to the Croatian
>>Ustashe, whose chief paymaster was the fascist dictator of Italy, Benito
>>Mussolini."
>>
>>"Balkan Ghosts" (p.66)
>>Robert D. Kaplan
>>
>>tErMiNaToV
>
>And if anything ever happens to Macedonian sovereignty again, you can rest
>assured that those activities will be resurrected. Beginning in Athens.
>
>PREDATOR
>True Macedonian
>Proud descendant of King Philip and Alexander the Great
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <3463BD...@gate.net>, ma...@gate.net says...
>I.Vitanov wrote:
>Texts like the one below that we are bombarded daily raise questions
>about
>the Bulgarian people and their capabilities of becoming part of modern
>Europe. Let's not forget that only a few years ago Bulgaria was the
>most willing of the Soviet satellites and was indeed serioulsy
>contemplating union.
The proposal for union was kept in secret within the Politburo, it was not
disclosed to the public and was not taken seriously by the Russians,
because at the same time Todor Zhivkov allowed the re-print of the Simeon
Radev's book 'The builders of modern Bulgaria', which strongly critisized
the Balkan policy of Russia after the liberation in 1878 (in those days Russia,
for example, insisted for a Georgian prince, who sold his (still) independent
part of Georgia to the Russians for x10,000 rubles, to be installed on the
throne of Bulgaria). Such details of the XIX-XX c. Russian policy were not
allowed earlier 'to leak' in communist Bulgaria, and the Russians were very
angry at the double play of Todor Zhivkov, most probably one of his numerous
political manouevres to fish in troubled waters.
So much about this 'seriously contemplated union'. Had it become known to the
society, it would have caused serious unrest. Today the Bulg. public prosecutors
cannot even find the documents (if any) of that decision in order to charge Todor
Zhivkov for treason.
Now look at your own plate to see that you hasn't implemented yet the second part
of the proposition accepted by the 1991 referendum in RoM - to enter into a (possible
future) Union of Sovereign Yugoslav States.
Hurry, hurry, dear Mangovski, don't be late.
Vassil Karloukovski.
------------------------------------
Babait kah'r suratl'
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat e-mail: e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk
mal...@rocketmail.com
(PM) I am going to give a humble translation of
Bulgarian text for the interested.
In article <3462FD...@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
I.Vitanov <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
In a previous posting, part of the "Human rights
in RoM" thread, Mr Karloukovski made mention of
the story of how Ohrid saved 25 Bulgarian
soldiers who had escaped and hid in the town, from
the Germans, and the role played by the priest
Toma Kavaen. The heroic incident, in which the
people of Ohrid refused to surrender those whom
they had welcomed with bread and salt, according
to the Bulgarian tradition, 3 years earlier as
their compatriots and liberators, despite the
threat of their town being destroyed by the
German artillery which had surrounded it, has
few parallels in history. A more sincere
declaration of the national affiliation of the
population of Ohrid, and that of most of Macedonia
at the time, can be neither asked for nor given.
The following account, taken from
K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and
the resistance of Macedonia against it", may be of
interest.
A few biographical details about the author are
in order, less he be accused of propaganda.
Kosta Tsurnushanov (1903-1997), was born
in the town of Prilep, in Vardar Macedonia, in the
year of the Ilinden uprising. He was a friend of
Saving of Bulgarian P. O. W.
As known, after Bulgarian withdrawal from
Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, Bulgaria
proclaimed war to Germany. Military assaults
began between the organized German units and
withdrawing Bulgarian military ones. In the road
to Bitolja, Bulgarian units from Ohrid were
encircled from the Germans, and taken as P. O.
W., and in Prilep a battle was done under
commandment of Col. Mladenov - commander of
Prilep Artillery Regiment. His subordinate
officer - Col. Drenski preferred to kill himself,
because he was unable to create the defence of his
military company.
In that time the Germans withdrew from
Greece using the Vardar valley, and the main road
Solun (Thessaloniki) - Lerin (Florina) - Bitolia
- Ohrid - Debur - Tetovo - Kachanik. While the
German commandment was yet in Ohrid, in the
first days of October 1944 , in the town came a
German unit, which took with it a group of
Bulgarian P. O. W. About 25 of them menaged to
escape and hide in the town. Then a real trial for
Ohrid began. Witnesses were Ohrid citizens, taken
part in the events. Those were Petur Savinov -
photographer, his wife Grete - Austrian citizen,
which took the role of an interpreter, the teacher
Anastasia Bahchevanova Atanasova - after that
interpreter in Radio Sofia, which made the list of
donators of gold in order to save the town from
destruction. There was a special TV interview of
Peter and Grete Savinovi, which told under
cameras of Bulgarian TV about the Ohrid sacrifice.
The writer Serafim Severniak described the
events in his book "Ohridska legenda" ("Ohrid
Legend"). Let us read the evidence of family
Savinovi.
After Germans discovered, that their P. O. W.
were missing, the town commendant, the Captain
from the Naval Forces Baumgarten, wanted from
the town citizens to give them back under the
threat of punishment. Especially he wanted from
the Ohrid Mayor Ilia Kotsarev to give him 25
communists from the town as hostages for the
escaped 25 Bulgarian solgiers. But Kotsarev as a
patriot refused with the words: "I can die, but I
cannot give 25 citizens and grieve 25 houses!"
Then Baumgarten proposed to be founded an
economical committee of the town from 20
prominent citizens. Between them were Manev,
Kavaev, Filipchev, Ketskarov - director of the
Secondary School, etc. The German officer
proclaimed, that all those 20 people, which
gathered to him, would be catched as hostages
against the hidden Bulgarian solgiers. He gave an
order all P. O. W. to be given until 9 o'clock in the
morning, otherwise he would burn the town.
Artillery guns were installed near the hotel of
Radichev and the place of Chinara in order to shoot
over the town. All town was encircled.
The orders of the German commendant were
communicated to the population via the commune
drummer, accompanied by one or two hostages
(between them the director Metodi Ketskarov).
They all had to cry in the streets: "Everybody
which is hidding Bulgarian solgier have to give
him, otherwise the town will be burned!" But
with signs and alegory words they give the
impression to act in the other way.
<del>
In the supreme moment, when women and
children gathered before Baumgarten to cry and
ask, he countermanded his order to burn the town.
But he ordered a ransom to be paid - a half
kilogram of gold for every P. O. W. But in the
town there was not such a quantity.
After long bargain and asking, the ransom
was decreased to 10 kg altogether. It ought to be
mentioned, that an important role in bargaining
played Grete Savinova, which appealed to the
humanity of the German, described the morality
of the town citizens, etc., and greatly contributed
to avoiding the dangerous situation.
The most exciting moment began: women
brought the gold coins from their wedding
costumes, another gave their wedding rings, some
gave their bracelets and earrings... The altogether
exclamation was: "Se ke daime, bugarski voinik ne
davame!" ("We will give everything, but will not
give the Bulgarian solgiers!" In such a way about
840 napoleons were gathered (except the golden
finery). But the amount was not enough. At last
moment, the village priest Toma Kavaen came
with the covered with gold cross of the church
"St. Kliment". He gave it with the words: "Sveti
Kliment ne vardel i pak ke ne vardit!" (St
Clement protected us, and will protect us.")
The religious German was touched, and he ordered
all golden finery to be returned, and the golden
coins to be used from the community for the
winter help. The Mayor Kotsarev offered to
Baumgarten to take one napoleon per every
solgier, but he refused. Then Kotsarev made him a
present - his own golden ring, which was
accepted.
<del>
pp. 241-43, Kosta Tsurnushanov,
"Makedonizmut i Suprotivata na Makedonia
sreshtu nego", Sofia, 1992
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <647ap4$g8t$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, ly...@eexi.gr says...
>
>In article <8791738...@dejanews.com>,
>
>> As known, after Bulgarian withdrawal from
>>Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, Bulgaria
>>proclaimed war to Germany. Military assaults
>>began between the organized German units and
>
>This just HAS to be the funniest post for 1997! Thank you, Plamen, for a
>good laugh. It seems that even paranoid people can entertain, albeit
>unwillingly.
I, however, don't see what caused your laugh. Only one day after the Bulgarian
declaration of was against Germany, the Soviet Union declared war on Bulgaria,
its armies entered entered the country, and the communists staged a coup in Sofia.
In that general disorder - we had no functioning government but we had declared war
on the USA, Britain, and now Germany, and USSR - on us (doen't this deserve to be
mentioned in the Guiness book of records!), the Bulgarian troops in Macedonia were
the last care to anybody and were left on their own. With no general command and
disorganised after the events in Bulgaria, thousands Bulgarian soldiers were
disarmed by the retreating from Greece German troops and sent to concentration
camps.
I think the same happened to the Italian soldiers in Greece when Italy fell off
the war in 1943. I read something about the Germans drowing their former allies
in boats in the Aegean Sea, so I am waiting for your explanation what was so funny
in Mr Malinov's translation.
Take care, Mr/Mrs ~, your name is even shorter and more anonimous than that of Mr.T.
Vassil Karloukovski
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <647ap4$g8t$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, ly...@eexi.gr says...
>
>In article <8791738...@dejanews.com>,
>mal...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>
>>Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, Bulgaria
>>proclaimed war to Germany. Military assaults
>>began between the organized German units and
>
>This just HAS to be the funniest post for 1997! Thank you, Plamen, for a
>good laugh. It seems that even paranoid people can entertain, albeit
>unwillingly.
I, however, don't see what caused your laugh. Only one day after the Bulgarian
declaration of was against Germany, the Soviet Union declared war on Bulgaria,
its armies entered entered the country, and the communists staged a coup in Sofia.
In that general disorder - we had no functioning government but we had declared war
on the USA, Brutain, and now Germany, and USSR - on us (doen't this deserve to be
mentioned in the Guiness book of records), the Bulgarian troops in Macedonia were the
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <19971109134...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, rad...@aol.comÎ says...
...
>of Iliad) explains how the Macedonian Emperor Vassili II after defeating
>the Macedonian king Samuel, called himself Bulgaroktonos in order to please
>the Greeks, to confirm his servility to Byzantium and to denigrate and
>humiliate Samuel. Because, Belchev explains, the very word 'Bulgar' meant
>'rabble, riff-raff and rubbish, garbage', giving birth to the epithet 'vulgar'
>meaning 'boorish, dolt, cabbage-head and other strong epithets'(I couldn't
>better translate into English his words 'tikvarski, prostashki,
> opincharski').>>
>Now, finally, the fact of this Bulgarian man not being able to recognize the
> Macedonian word for pumpkin will send the message that our languages are not
> at all the same.
Don't hurry with your conclusions, Mrs Radev. 'Tikva' is the Bulg. word for
the plant 'pumpkin', but my Bul-Eng dictionary had only the words 'cabbage-head,
dolt, dunce' for 'tikvenik'. I didn't know 'pumpkin' had the same figurative
meaning as 'tikva' in Bulgarian.
><<I didn't understand although what in the whole story posted by Mr Vitanov caused
>your grumbling against the Bulgarians. You should 'blame' the citizens of Ohrid,
>not us. Or better SHOOT YOURSELVES IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE REALITIES !!!>>
>The reality is very simple. Those Macedonians from Ohrid tried to save human
> beings from the atrocities that would have certainly occurred if they gave
> them up. It mattered no who they were, where they came from, etc.
Whatever the reality was, it was very nice from your side that you show respect
towards that action of the citizens of Ohrid.
As I often
> heard it recounted, "edna dusha" (one life) and the connotations can only be
> understood by a Macedonian. I, for one, applaud those citizens for their
> bravery.
Me too.
>HRA
Regards,
@eexi.gr ~
> As known, after Bulgarian withdrawal from
>Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, Bulgaria
>proclaimed war to Germany. Military assaults
>began between the organized German units and
Vassil Karloukovski
...
>people seem to be prone to brainwashing and even today they seem incapable
>of distinguishing between reality and dreams as I'll show in the following example.
>All these leads to instability in the Balkans and raises the anti-Bulgarian
>sentiments among Macedonians.
And you are their legitimate representative and speak on the behalf of all
Macedonias, right?
>Even a new war is not excluded as no Macedonian
>will stand being bullied about identity related matters.
Oooo, you are even their military commander...
It is of my
>special concern that Macedonian-Bulgarian relations are getting worse
Not, it isn't of your concern. You didn't give a shit that the Movement for
Friendship and cooperation between RoM and RoB of prof. D. Galev haven't
been registered for nearly two years already.
>by the day and I very much regret to say that I see no possibility
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Regrets who? A persons who three weeks ago called 'traitors' those fellow
citizens (including prof.Galev) who do not ascribe to his view of history,
and who justified persecutions, police tortures, drowing and shooting of
people with the 'general wrath of Macedonians towards traitors'?
>of improvement simply because I haven't seen any signs, official or not,
>of willingness to face reality.
>But let's look at the text, which is a typical example of propaganda
>where German action against partisans is transformed into a pro-Bulgarian
>myth:
A shameless lie. The partisans entered Ohrid several days later, only after
the German retreat.
Mr Mangovski, several days ago you didn't know anything about that event in
Ohrid, '44 and you have never read the book of Cyrnushanov, but this doesn't
prevent you from commenting it now. Indeed, let us look at the text and at your
attempts to defy each single moment of the story, thus contradicting yourself.
...
>> the time, can be neither asked for nor given. The following account,
>> taken from K.Tsurnoshanov's book "The Macedonist idea and the resistance
>> of Macedonia against it" ,
>I wonder how it would sound if somebody wrote a book titled "The Bulgarian
>idea and the resistance of Bulgaria against it" or "The Greek idea and the
>resistance of Greece against it."
You proposals don't sound correct. Appropriate analogues would be 'The Moldovan
idea and the resistance of Romania against it', or 'The Karelian idea and
the resistance of Finland against it', or 'The Burjatian idea and the
resistance of Mongolia against it'.
>> Chkatrov - a close associate of Todor Alexandrov, and so on. He moved to
>> Sofia in the late 1930's and went back to Macedonia as a school inspector
>> in the period 1941-44, and then again returned to Sofia. It is
>> interesting that he has been at odds with all Bulgarian governments which
>> have been in power during the time he has lived in Bulgaria.
>At odd with Bulgarian governments yet in their employ as school
>inspector?
Yes, at odd with the Bulg. government. Most of Cyrnushanov's history books
were published after 1990, after the collapse of the communism. His book
'Makedonism...' was published in 1992, when he was 89 years old. Why should
he wait for so long for its publishing, when the materials had been collected
and describe events happened much earlier. And how could he be sure he will
reach that age and only then to lunch his 'propaganda'?
I cannot comment on his relations with the Bulg.government during his
period of school inspector in '41-44. I have neither read anything from
him on the subject, nor I, with my Sofia-centred point of view, can see the
things from the point of view of a man arrived from Serbian Macedonia to
Bulgaria at the age of 30+ and returning back to Macedonia several years
later. Perhaps, his position is implicitely stated when he describes that
of his friend Dimitar Chkatrov towards the Bulg. rule in Macedonia -
support for the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia but also some dissatisfaction
from the distrust of the Bulg. authorities towards their own people.
>> Tsurnushanov's many prolific writings, meticulous collection of sources
>> and eye witness accounts, reflecting the tragedy of the Macedonian
>> Bulgarians, have been solely his own initiative.
>The Bulgarian govt was against that, of course.
Of, course, it was. Didn't I told you already? ;-))
I have another Cyrnushanov's book which was published in the days he died.
We must be happy he lived long enough to see the change to democracy in RoB,
and to be allowed to transmit his knowledge to the future generations.
...
>> komandvaneto na polkovnik Mladenov i atakuvashtite germanski voiiski.
>> Polkovnik Drenski se samoybiva, vizhdaiki se v nevuzmozhnost da postroi
>> voiiskite si za boi.
>According to this description the partisan army didn't exist and we have
>poor Bulgarian soldiers battling their yesterday allies.
The Bulgarians soldiers battled their yeasterday allies sine 7.9.'44 and
at the end of the war reached the Alps.
But why should any partisan army fight the Germans, what for, when several days
ago you concured with Mr.T.: 'You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told
stories that Macedonians hugged and kissed the German soldiers'.
...
>> vzeli nai-aktivno uchastie v subitiata. Tova sa mesniat fotograf Petur
>> Savinov, negovata supruga Grete, avstriika, koiato izpulniava roliata na
>> prevodach, i uchitelkata Anastasia Bahchevanova Atanasova
>the teacher was imported from Bulgaria, obviously.
And here it goes... First it was the imported priest of the 'St.Kliment' church
in Ohrid, who turned out to speak the local dialect, now it is the shool-
teacher Atanassova. How can you be sure she wasn't a native, say, a graduate
of the Skopie university?
...
>> Sled kato germantsite otkrili, che sa im izbiagali plennitsite,
>> komendantut na grada, kapitanut ot morskite voiiski Baumgarten, poiskal
>> ot grazhdanite da my predadat plennitsite, koito sa ykrili, inache shte
>> nakazhe tselia grad. Spetsialno ot kmeta na grada Ilia Kotsarev poiskal
>> da mu predade 25 dushi komynisti kato zalozhnitsi sreshtu izbiagalite i
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is the the most obvious lie that destroys the whole story: the Germans
>don't ask for the Bulgarian soldiers but ask for 25 communists as hostages,
Wrong translation, The Germans wanted the Bulg. soldiers AND 25 Ohridian
communists in the meanwhile. As a guarantee that the former won't run away.
Here is my translation:
-------------------------------------
: After the Germans found the prisoners had escaped, the commendant of the
: city, capitan of the naval forces Baumgarten, demanded from the citizens
: to turn over the hidden prisoners, otherwise he will punish the whole city.
: Personally from the mayor of the town Ilija Kocarev he required to deliver
: 25 people communists as a guarantee for the escaped and hidden in the town
: 25 BUlgarian soldiers.
--------------------------------------
In German eyes the Bulgarian soldiers were representatives of the new
communist government of the occupied by Soviet troops Bulgaria, so there was
no big difference between them and communists.
>upon which the mayor, allegedly a pro-Bulgarian and surely anti-communist,
>refuses to give.
Allegedly? The mayor was certainly not a Makedonist, as he was sentenced to 20
years of prison when the partisans came. It was an outrageous lie from your
side to say that the 25 POW's were partisans.
Knowing what was going durinf the war the Germans would just
>shoot the mayor
But they didn't shoot him. I can imagine what the German translator Grete
Savinov was telling to Baumgarten - that the Germans were welcomed as liberators,
that the local population have not fought against them (at last something of
Mr.T. I could agree with. The partisan movement in Bulgaria and Macedonia was
so miserable that the Germans, contrary to their active involvment in the rest of
Yugoslavia, didn't bother at all with B&M partisans and left it to the Bulg.
authorities to deal with them as it finds appropriate.)
especially if we assume, as the story wants us to beleive,
>that the Germaans were dealing with a "Bulgarian," and therefore a recent
>enemy, national.
What the Germans wanted was, initially, the prisoners, and later - gold.
Not the mayor was of their concern.
>> ukrilite se v grada 25 bulgarski voinnitsi. No Kotsarev - star bulgarski
>> patriot, otkazal da stori tova s dumite:
>> "Az moga da ymra, no ne moga da predam 25 dushi grazhdani i da
>> zatvoria 25 kushti!"
>> Togava pod formata na obrazuvane na stopanski komitet Baumgarten
>> poiskal ot grazhdanite da predostaviat 20 vidni ohridchani. Mezhdy
>The writer wants us to beleive that the German, after asking all that and being,
>refused, proposed a formation of an economic council made out of the
>most prominent Ohridians!??
'pod formata na obrazuvane na stopanski komitet' means 'under the pretex of
the formation of economic council'. Are you insane or yes? You mistranslate
Cyrnushanov's text for a second time. Even I was able to catch you. :-)))
The Germans were retreating from Greece and Baumgarten was worried about his
own future. If even he would not succeed in returning the prisoners, having
20 prominent citizens as hostages would allow him to extort some money, as it
in fact happened .
>At the end of the war?
Yes, at the end of the war. The Nazi officiers were interested in securing
their own and their families future after the war, and were looking for gold,
not Guns 'n Roses.
>Only idiots will beleive such stories.
And where is your story?
You cannot even construct an integral alternative one as your comments
contradict to each other.
...
>> vecherta, inache shte izgori grada. Pri hotela na Radichev i pri Chinara
>> bili postaveni protivoaeroplanni orudia za obstrelvane na grada. Samiat
>> grad bil obsaden ot vsichki strani.
>
>All those who know Ohrid can testify that placing anti-aircrcaft guns for
>the purpose of shelling the city would only result in shelling few neighbouring
>houses with the gunners being killed by the debris.
Vow, gunners killed by the debris of the defendless houses, dead raising in a final
fight, ... it reminds me about some old and unpleasant readings from the past.
When one takes hostages, usually it is not to kill them, but to stripe as much
money as possible. Anyway, your concern about the physical conditon of the
obviously military ignorant and unused to bombard cities Germans still waits
somebody's else appreciation.
[ ... even more incoherent mental attempts deleted.]
>A question lingers: how can people beleive such stupid stories?
My question is why Cyrnushanov's story caused you start as if a wasp had stung
one, why didn't you just appreciate and praise the humanity demonstrated by the
Ohridianes, as Hope did. Why the expression of their concern about the lifes of
the Bulg. POW's was interpretted as an agression against _your_ identity, and
caused your sabre-rattling and call for war.
Answer is:
>if they can beleive that Stalin was a semi-God for 40 years they can
>beleive in everything. ???????????????????????????
????
Here the views of the chairman of the Mac. Parliament _Tito_ Petkovski may
be mentioned. They explain your current mental state.
>--
>Slavko Mangovski
Vassil Karloukovski.
Radeff
[del]
<<But why should any partisan army fight the Germans, what for, when several
days
ago you concured with Mr.T.: 'You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told
stories that Macedonians hugged and kissed the German soldiers'.>>
This is beyond being ludicrous when I know partisans did fight the Germans in
Macedonia and that includes members of my family. Plus, I would not be too
quick to not believe that some of those Macedonian prisoners went from jail to
the mountains to join the partisans, too.
Its over 50 years ago that this hell of a war affected all of us, no matter
where we lived. Lets give it a rest unless we can give some new meaningful
information on it and let the current politics slide away from the discussion.
[del]
<<Allegedly? The mayor was certainly not a Makedonist, as he was sentenced to
20
years of prison when the partisans came. It was an outrageous lie from your
side to say that the 25 POW's were partisans>>
How is it that a good thing has to be beaten to death here?
FYI, and others, too, it was not until a few years ago that a relative of mine
told of being a partisan after living here for decades. Can we let go of the
fear for once? Can we just say that there were 25 POWs that have been
identified in --- text as Bulgarians, were saved from the Germans by the
citizens of Ohrid, Macedonia and God bless them all.
BTW, if I am understanding the term, Makedonist, correctly, there were
Macedonians who were jailed by the Germans, too, and we are not privy to this
mayor's real feelings at all. Remember the fear.
HRA
[del]
.
GS
Radeff wrote:
>
> [del]
>
> <<But why should any partisan army fight the Germans, what for, when several
> days
> ago you concured with Mr.T.: 'You are aboslutely right, Mr. T. I've been told
> stories that Macedonians hugged and kissed the German soldiers'.>>
>
> Macedonia and that includes members of my family. Plus, I would not be too
> quick to not believe that some of those Macedonian prisoners went from jail to
> the mountains to join the partisans, too.
> Its over 50 years ago that this hell of a war affected all of us, no matter
> where we lived. Lets give it a rest unless we can give some new meaningful
> information on it and let the current politics slide away from the discussion.
>
>
> [del]
>
> 20
> years of prison when the partisans came. It was an outrageous lie from your
>
> How is it that a good thing has to be beaten to death here?
> FYI, and others, too, it was not until a few years ago that a relative of mine
> told of being a partisan after living here for decades. Can we let go of the
> fear for once? Can we just say that there were 25 POWs that have been
> identified in --- text as Bulgarians, were saved from the Germans by the
> citizens of Ohrid, Macedonia and God bless them all.
> BTW, if I am understanding the term, Makedonist, correctly, there were
> Macedonians who were jailed by the Germans, too, and we are not privy to this
> mayor's real feelings at all. Remember the fear.
>
> HRA
>
> [del]
> .
>
>
>
>
Not only did Macedonian partisans fight the Nazis but Macedonian
noncommunists fought the Nazis too. This whole string is sad.
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <clint.208...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada>,
cl...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada says...
>YOU PEOPLE ARE SELF-CENTERED LIKE THE RUSSIANS. THEY KICKED THEIR STALINIST
>ASS SO ACCORDING TO THEM THE GERMANS MUST HATE ALL SLAVS. OF COURSE WE
>FORGET THEY WERE ALLIES WITH MACEDONIA, BULGARIA, UKRAINE AND CROATIA.
... and Slovakia, but your interpretations are monstrous and you should be
ashamed of yourself. The whole population of nearly 200 villages in
Bellorussia was exterminated by the Nazis, they could have done the same
in Macedonia had they been interested in that. You can be sure the Bellorussian
peasants were as far from Stalinism as were the Macedonian ones.
THEY
>KICKED YOUR PIECE OF SHIT GREEK ASS SO OF COURSE THEY HATED MACEDONIANS?
>(WELL, MAYBE ONLY THE DIRT-SQUATTING KIND.)
>Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
>TRUE MACEDONIAN
>Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
Vassil Karloukovski,
true descendant of Ilija&Elissaveta Karloukovski and Georgi&Maria Delchev
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <346808...@erols.com> GS <sp...@erols.com> writes:
<snip>
>Not only did Macedonian partisans fight the Nazis but Macedonian
>noncommunists fought the Nazis too. This whole string is sad.
Oh yes, and a whole lot of 'Macedonians' joined the ranks of the 'policing'
Bulgarian regular and irregular forces, accepted their money and weapons, as
well as those of the Nazi Germans (and the Fascist Italians further west) and
terrorized refugee villages and villagers as well as those they called
Grkomani.
And, no, not everything can be explained by 'fear' and 'survival instincts'.
It's one thing to try not to get involved with any of the warring sides, it's
quite another to actively collaborate with the aggressors.
As for Hope's extrapolation, no Hope those Macedonian Slavonic speaking
persons who were released from prison by the Nazis by declaring themselves
Bulgarians by nationality did not join either the EAM nor the Partizans in the
mountains right away. Most of them joined the Bulgarian regular and irregular
occupation forces FIRST. When the 's*it hit the fan' and it became patently
obvious that having collaborated with the Bulgarians/Nazis/Italians was a
really BAD move, they welcomed the opportunity to transform themselves into
armed 'liberation' fighters in SNOF or NOF and thus gain immediate
'absolution' for their past 'sins'.
I.Vitanov
Thanks for translating the extract from K.Tsurnushanov! Unfortunately,
when I posted it and since then, I didn't have the opportunity to
translate it. This rendered the text prone to misinterpretation, by those
in who's interest it was to do so, that would not be immeadiately
apparent to someone who did not speak Bulgarian.
So, thanks again!
John Prodromidis
Nada (rad...@aol.com) wrote on Oct/8:
> > > told stories that Macedonians hugged and
> > > donians had bruised foreheads from the
> > > German's helmets.
> >
> > Amazing! German NAZI soldiers released
> > 'Macedonians' from Greek jails!!!!!!
> > And the proud, democratic, freedom-loving
> > 'Macedonians' 'hugged and kissed' them so
> > hard that they had 'bruised foreheads from
> > the Germans' helmets'!!!!
>
> Have you not understood that any port in a
> storm is welcome?
That was not the main point, Nada.
The 'story' that Mangovski communicated to us
runs against a few problems: German soldiers
breaching discipline and allowing themselves to
be kissed, hugged and 'handled' by (dirty pre-
sumably) 'men', non-Aryans, so much, while in
uniform, resulting in people getting bruises, is
a tale on its own!
> Pride has the tendency to fall in the need to
> survive. Does this ring true, at all? Freedom
> and democray - something that hasn't been
> ours for centuries. Its not even here now in
> this new world order.
>
> No, I have no knowledge of the above event.
And I don't think that anybody else would have
knowledge of Mangovski's 'event' either. ;-)
I.Vitanov
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>
> In article <346808...@erols.com> GS <sp...@erols.com> writes:
> <snip>
>
> >Not only did Macedonian partisans fight the Nazis but Macedonian
> >noncommunists fought the Nazis too. This whole string is sad.
>
> Oh yes, and a whole lot of 'Macedonians' joined the ranks of the 'policing'
> Bulgarian regular and irregular forces, accepted their money and weapons, as
> well as those of the Nazi Germans (and the Fascist Italians further west) and
> Grkomani.
>
What do you mean by "refugee villages"? Could these be the homes of the
hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians forced out of Agean Macedonia after
WW1, settled by Greek colonists from Asia minor? Since when has self
defence, against the attacks of Greek partisan formations, been
synonimous with "terrorizing", as you assert? Such was the case with the
Kostur (Kastoria) volunteers, for example.
> And, no, not everything can be explained by 'fear' and 'survival instincts'.
What are you saying with this vague statement? How can "not everything"
be explained?
> It's one thing to try not to get involved with any of the warring sides, it's
> quite another to actively collaborate with the aggressors.
>
> As for Hope's extrapolation, no Hope those Macedonian Slavonic speaking
> persons ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here you go again with your vague notions. There is no such thing, in the
modern sense, as a "slavonic" language - if there was, I'd be able to
converse freely with half of Europe, but alas... There are only slavonic
languages, such as Bulgarian, Russian, Polish, Czech. etc. Are you,
perhaps, trying to avoid saying Bulgarian-speaking by referring to
"slav-speaking persons". You've done it before though, the old favourite
"slavophone greeks" springs to mind.
who were released from prison by the Nazis by declaring themselves
> Bulgarians by nationality did not join
Now you're insulting the intelligence of the Nazis who, though admitedly
not the most humane, were certainly not as stupid as you'd have us
believe. Surely, if the Nazis offered amnesty to any prisoner who
declared himself/herself a Bulgarian, then no prisoner in his right mind
would refuse and hence a mass exodus of the entire prison population in
Macedonia would result, including Jews and communists. Why would the
Germans want that? Do you not allow for the more-than-likely alternative
that there was some sort of filtering process, that is, they established
the true nationality and reasons for imprisonment of an individual before
releasing him/her? Anyway, if you're assertions are correct 'Macedonians'
, who according to you colaborated with the Nazis, could've declared
themselves as Macedonians and still be set at liberty - why did they
complicate matters by calling themselves Bulgarians? By the way, where
did you get this whole prison thing from?
If you are the much learned scholar, that you present yourself to
be, then the Bulgarian ethnic belonging of the slav-Macedonians could not
have escaped you, why then are you pretending not to know better? Or is
this, perhaps, a manifestation of the old maxim: divide and rule?
either the EAM nor the Partizans in the
> mountains right away. Most of them joined the Bulgarian regular and irregular
> occupation forces FIRST. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Really?!! So would you consider the welcome, as conveyed by sources too
numerate to list, extended to Bulgarian troops who were greeted by
showering with flowers and ringing of church bells when they entered
Macedonia, to be one associated with the entrance of an "occupying
force"?
When the 's*it hit the fan' and it became patently
> obvious that having collaborated with the Bulgarians/Nazis/Italians was a
> really BAD move, they welcomed the opportunity to transform themselves into
> armed 'liberation' fighters in SNOF or NOF and thus gain immediate
> 'absolution' for their past 'sins'.
>
What are "SNOF" and "NOF", please write in full if abreviations are only
understood by you!
You're morally-indignant, emotionally-charged and incoherent narrative is
unconvincing, and falls short of an explanation of the events it
concerns!
> "And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the other peoples
> in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
> in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
> now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
> to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
> education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
> share in nature."
>
> Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
>
You do your cause a disservice by quoting the above passage out of
context! Due to the way you've presented it, its implication is that
those who are educated and have an affinity for ancient Greek culture and
philosophy can consider themselves to be Hellenes - that would exclude
quite a few modern greeks!!?
John Prodromidis
Nada (rad...@aol.com) wrote on Oct/9:
\
> > Look at the latest issue of Makedonsko Sonce,
> > (http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce177/tekst7_be/tekst7be.htm)
> > where your honoured prof. Belchev (the same who wrote
> > Macedonian Emperor Vassili II after defeating the
> > Macedonian king Samuel, called himself Bulgaroktonos
> > in order to please the Greeks, to confirm his servility
> > to Byzantium and to denigrate and humiliate Samuel.
> > Because, Belchev explains, the very word 'Bulgar' meant
> > 'rabble, riff-raff and rubbish, garbage', giving birth
> > to the epithet 'vulgar' meaning 'boorish, dolt, cabbage
> > -head and other strong epithets'(I couldn't better
> > translate into English his words 'tikvarski, prostashki,
> > opincharski').
But the question should be: Did the word have that meaning
(or meanings) in Greek (emp.Basileios II own language), at
the time? :-)
> Now, finally, the fact of this Bulgarian man not being
> able to recognize the Macedonian word for pumpkin will
> send the message that our languages are not at all the
> same.
Nada addressed to me a similar comment the same day about
the two speeches (languages or dialects) and I would like
to practically check the mutual comprehensiveness (or lack
of) with our readers' assistance and put perhaps the issue
to rest:
In which speech is this text, and can you read it?
Toj chranese naroda sas slovoto, onzi istinski chljab,
kojto ukrepva sarcata, no v sastoto vreme toj ne
zabravjase da chrani i telesno onezi, za koito vidja,
ce imat nuzda ot takava chrana.
In which speech is this text, and can you read it?
Toj go hranese narodot so slovoto, onoj vistinski leb
sto gi ukrepuva srcata, no vo isto vreme toj ne
zaboravase da gi hrani i telesno onie imaat nuzda ot
takva hrana.
John Prodromidis
Josif Grezlovski (joe...@gate.net) wrote on the 8th:
>
> Instead of re-building the few remaining bridges between
> these two seemingly close peoples, they are bent on
> distroying them.
The information on the 25 Bulgarians did all that? !
> But, then, again, when was the last time that Bulgarite
> "imaha" foreign policy?
> Most of the Bulgarians that I know, and I know quite a
> few, are cognizant of the fact that the present day
> politician are myopic to the core.
If you want me to quote similar or more impressive
FYROMian views of their political leadership (traitors,
etc.), would you be will you write a similar paragraph or are
you going to take them with a grain of salt...
>
> Diplomacy has never been their forte,
Tell us what you know of Bulgarian diplomacy over the ages
('never' and all). I trust your studies on the matter have been
extensive and renowned in the field.
> and the very few points that they can score is by
> reviving the old-faded dream of "Bulgarshtinata v'Make-
> donija".
> It is, undoubtedly, monotonous and boringly incompre-
> hensible to deal with topics of this nature.
Then you have nothing to worry about.
John Prodromidis
I.Vitanov (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) just wrote:
>
> Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> >
> > In article <346808...@erols.com> GS
> > <sp...@erols.com> writes:
> >
> <snip>
>
> > > Not only did Macedonian partisans fight the Nazis
> > > but Macedonian noncommunists fought the Nazis too.
> > > This whole string is sad.
> >
> > Oh yes, and a whole lot of 'Macedonians' joined the
> > ranks of the 'policing' Bulgarian regular and
> > irregular forces, accepted their money and weapons,
> > as well as those of the Nazi Germans (and the Fascist
> > Italians further west) and terrorized refugee
> > villages and villagers as well as those they called
>
> What do you mean by "refugee villages"? Could these be
> the homes of the hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians
> forced out of Agean Macedonia after WW1, settled by
> Greek colonists from Asia minor?
Yes, he seems to be referring to those villages
- of the some 390 thousands Muslim/Turks and 50-70
thousands Bulgarians (I think I've seen different
statistics and figures here) who were resettled/ex-
changed in their respective countries in the 1920s,
AND
- the 1,381 additional settlements that were created
at the time in N.Greece.
> Since when has self defence, against the attacks of
> Greek partisan formations, been synonimous with
> "terrorizing", as you assert?
It was not exactly self-defence, unless you are saying
that the Bulgarians and those who sided with their cause
minded their own business in occupied N.Greece at the
time... We know that is not the case and Bulgaria was
twisted into accepting a role in WWII not very much
wanted, and yet very brutal toward the Greek civilian
population of a defeated by the Nazis country...
It is an past issue and an ugly one. If you don't mind
it might be best if we all left the 'bloody' aspects of
that era behind...
> > As for Hope's extrapolation, no Hope those Macedo-
> > nian Slavonic speaking persons
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Here you go again with your vague notions. There is no
> such thing, in the modern sense, as a "slavonic"
> language - if there was, I'd be able to converse
> freely with half of Europe, but alas... There are only
> slavonic languages, such as Bulgarian, Russian, Polish,
> Czech. etc. Are you, perhaps, trying to avoid saying
> Bulgarian-speaking by referring to "slav-speaking
> persons". You've done it before though, the old
> favourite "slavophone greeks" springs to mind.
Since you are aware of that old term, and you know
what he is talking about, what is your problem?
> > who were released from prison by the Nazis by
> > declaring themselves Bulgarians by nationality did
> > not join
>
> Now you're insulting the intelligence of the Nazis
Defend it, man...
> who, though admitedly not the most humane, were
> certainly not as stupid as you'd have us believe.
> Surely, if the Nazis offered amnesty to any prisoner
> who declared himself/herself a Bulgarian, then no
> prisoner in his right mind would refuse and hence a
> mass exodus of the entire prison population in
> Macedonia would result, including Jews and communists.
To the best of your knowledge, were these peoples
able to enjoy an 'easy' life even in the Bulgarian-
controlled provinces of N.Greece or even Bulgaria proper
(despite the effort of the Bulgarian Government there to
protect them or some of them)?
I am sorry to say that Jewish claims to Bulgarian
connections were destined to failure, even in the towns
and prisons controlled by Bulgarians.
With speakers of Slavic dialects this might be easier
and the Germans might be willing to offer 'Slavs' an
Aryan status and please their allies (Bulgarians) if one
declared imprisonment for national reasons.
The Bulgarians themselves might be even easier to
convince -perhaps like preaching to the converted.
Your instincts though may be right Vancho. The modest
numbers of those released (otherwise the thing might be
spectacular and better known as a mass exodus) may
suggest there were not many Slavophones or Bulgarophones
(if you prefer) in Greek prisons.
> Why would the Germans want that? Do you not allow for
> the more-than-likely alternative that there was some
> sort of filtering process, that is, they established
> the true nationality and reasons for imprisonment of
> an individual before releasing him/her? Anyway, if
> you're assertions are correct 'Macedonians', who
> according to you colaborated with the Nazis, could've
> declared themselves as Macedonians and still be set at
> liberty - why did they complicate matters by calling
> themselves Bulgarians? By the way, where did you get
> this whole prison thing from?
:-) You are actually confirming Stavros' original point!
This was:
"Do you know what Slavonic-speaking Macedonians had to do
in order to escape prison/jail? DECLARE THEMSELVES
BULGARIANS BY NATIONALITY!"
The thing with prisoners was Mangovski's idea in the
second of his 'replies' to you (the indirect and more
'civil' one).
\
> > When the 's*it hit the fan' and it became patently
> > obvious that having collaborated with the Bulgarians/
> > Nazis/Italians was a really BAD move, they welcomed
> > the opportunity to transform themselves into armed
> > 'liberation' fighters in SNOF or NOF and thus gain
> > immediate 'absolution' for their past 'sins'.
>
> What are "SNOF" and "NOF", please write in full if
> abreviations are only understood by you!
Communist/ guerrilla organisation(s) in the early 1940s,
'child' of Tito’s aide Vukmanvic-Tempo. Full name "Slav
National Liberation Front". People who have studied the
issue say that it may have been instrumental in the
establishment of a Slav Macedonian consciousness
separate from Bulgarian (as it had by then developed).
> You're morally-indignant, emotionally-charged and
> incoherent narrative is unconvincing, and falls short
> of an explanation of the events it concerns!
Crap! If you had asked 10 times and he hadn't explained
himself you might have a point. For the rest of us who
follow the conversation, and know what he says and the
terminology he uses, your call is unjustified.
> > "And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the
> > other peoples in the ways of reason and speech, that
> > her disciples did in turn enlighten others, and the
> > name of the Hellenes is now considered pertinent not
> > to race but rather to spirit, to the point of
> > calling Hellenes those with whom we share education
> > and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
> > share in nature."
> >
> > Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
>
> You do your cause a disservice by quoting the above
> passage out of context!
Newcomers in the forum say a similar things, and I have
yet to see one who knows what he is actually commenting
on. :-)
<del>
Slavko Mangovski
Vassil Karloukovski wrote:
>
> In article <3463BD...@gate.net>, ma...@gate.net says...
> >I.Vitanov wrote:
>
> ...
> >people seem to be prone to brainwashing and even today they seem incapable
> >of distinguishing between reality and dreams as I'll show in the following example.
> >All these leads to instability in the Balkans and raises the anti-Bulgarian
> >sentiments among Macedonians.
>
> And you are their legitimate representative and speak on the behalf of all
> Macedonias, right?
This explains everything. Your are completely blind, Karloukovski. You
have been
told the same thing by all Macedonians yet you chose to ignore it.
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <8792988...@dejanews.com> jpr...@essex.ac.uk (John Prodromidis) writes:
At my server, I received this version before the original response by Mr.
Vitanov.
>I.Vitanov (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) just wrote:
>>
>> Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <346808...@erols.com> GS
>> > <sp...@erols.com> writes:
>> >
>> <snip>
>>
>> > > Not only did Macedonian partisans fight the Nazis
>> > > but Macedonian noncommunists fought the Nazis too.
>> > > This whole string is sad.
>> >
>> > Oh yes, and a whole lot of 'Macedonians' joined the
>> > ranks of the 'policing' Bulgarian regular and
>> > irregular forces, accepted their money and weapons,
>> > as well as those of the Nazi Germans (and the Fascist
>> > Italians further west) and terrorized refugee
>> > villages and villagers as well as those they called
>> > Grkomani.
>> What do you mean by "refugee villages"? Could these be
>> the homes of the hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians
>> forced out of Agean Macedonia after WW1, settled by
>> Greek colonists from Asia minor?
No, and quit bullshiting. The lands of Macedonian Slavonic or
Bulgarian-speaking Macedonian peasants who voluntarily moved to Bulgaria
pursuant to the provisions of the Neuilly Treaty were a miniscule part of the
lands, mostly formerly owned and occupied by Muslim chiftlik-owners and Muslim
small land-holders as well as formerly uncultivated (mostly grazing lands and
swamps) that were distributed to communities of Asia Minor, Pontic, Eastern
Thrakian, and Caucasian Greek-Orthodox REFUGEES for re-settlement. If you want
facts and figures please ask further and I will provide them. Have you ever
read Jacques Ancel's _La Macedoine, son Evolution Contemporaine_, published in
1930, in Paris, by Librairie Delagrave? If not, please do.
>Yes, he seems to be referring to those villages
>- of the some 390 thousands Muslim/Turks and 50-70
> thousands Bulgarians (I think I've seen different
> statistics and figures here) who were resettled/ex-
> changed in their respective countries in the 1920s,
> AND
>- the 1,381 additional settlements that were created
> at the time in N.Greece.
>> Since when has self defence, against the attacks of
>> Greek partisan formations, been synonimous with
>> "terrorizing", as you assert?
What 'self-defence' was that? Don't make me laugh! The only Macedonian Slavs
that were attacked by the EAM were those who had openly and clearly sided with
Bulgarian faschist organizations and occupying forces, thus having sided
clearly with the enemy. What else are we going to see in this newsgroup, I
wonder. Are you now saying that the KKE (Greek C.P.) hegemonized EAM (National
Liberation Front) andart formations attacked Macedonian Slavs (call them
Bulgarian if you prefer, it doesn't change any of the facts)
indiscriminately??? On the contrary, my friend, on the contrary.
<snip>
>> > As for Hope's extrapolation, no Hope those Macedo-
>> > nian Slavonic speaking persons
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Here you go again with your vague notions. There is no
>> such thing, in the modern sense, as a "slavonic"
>> language - if there was, I'd be able to converse
>> freely with half of Europe, but alas... There are only
>> slavonic languages, such as Bulgarian, Russian, Polish,
>> Czech. etc.
You must be hard of seeing! 'Macedonian Slavonic' is the term I use for the
Southern Slavonic dialects spoken in various parts of greater Macedonia. You
want to call them all Bulgarian, the Serbs want to call them all Serbian, and
the ethno-national Macedonians want to call them all Macedonian. In any case,
I was refering to the language they spoke, NOT their ethnological background
or their ethno-national conscience (if any).
>> Are you, perhaps, trying to avoid saying
>> Bulgarian-speaking by referring to "slav-speaking
>> persons".
I couldn't care less what you call the language they spoke. If you want to
claim them all as Bulgarians, or as lost and brainwashed Bulgarians, suit
yourself. It obviously makes you feel better, but, alas, it changes absolutely
nothing about past history.
>>You've done it before though, the old
>> favourite "slavophone greeks" springs to mind.
Who's the 'you' above? BTW, there have been and still exist thousands of
Macedonians who have a Greek ethno-national conscience and whose native or
ancestral language was part of the South Slavonic linguistic continuum.
<snip>
>> > who were released from prison by the Nazis by
>> > declaring themselves Bulgarians by nationality did
>> > not join
>>
>> Now you're insulting the intelligence of the Nazis
<snip>.
>> who, though admitedly not the most humane, were
>> certainly not as stupid as you'd have us believe.
>> Surely, if the Nazis offered amnesty to any prisoner
>> who declared himself/herself a Bulgarian, then no
>> prisoner in his right mind would refuse and hence a
>> mass exodus of the entire prison population in
>> Macedonia would result, including Jews and communists.
What a crock of shit! Maybe you think people are willing to declare themselves
Bulgarians that easily, who knows? We were talking about 'political prisoners'
not run-of-the-mill prisoners, first of all. Secondly, non-Slavonic speaking
persons would have a hard time convincing anybody that they were in fact
Bulgarians by nationality (In Greece being non-Grecophone =/= being non-Greek,
but being Bulgarian by nationality certainly = being Bulgarophone or at least
Slavophone).
> To the best of your knowledge, were these peoples
>able to enjoy an 'easy' life even in the Bulgarian-
>controlled provinces of N.Greece or even Bulgaria proper
>(despite the effort of the Bulgarian Government there to
>protect them or some of them)?
From what my colleague, a Bulgarian, whose father had to flee to Bulgaria
after he foolishly demonstrated publically in the streets when the Bulgarian
'policing' forces entered the Drama region, told me, life in Bulgaria SUCKED
for them.
> I am sorry to say that Jewish claims to Bulgarian
>connections were destined to failure, even in the towns
>and prisons controlled by Bulgarians.
> With speakers of Slavic dialects this might be easier
>and the Germans might be willing to offer 'Slavs' an
>Aryan status and please their allies (Bulgarians) if one
>declared imprisonment for national reasons.
> The Bulgarians themselves might be even easier to
>convince -perhaps like preaching to the converted.
Exactly. But our interlocutor seems to have left his brain somewhere . . .
> Your instincts though may be right Vancho. The modest
>numbers of those released (otherwise the thing might be
>spectacular and better known as a mass exodus) may
>suggest there were not many Slavophones or Bulgarophones
>(if you prefer) in Greek prisons.
>> Why would the Germans want that? Do you not allow for
>> the more-than-likely alternative that there was some
>> sort of filtering process, that is, they established
>> the true nationality and reasons for imprisonment of
>> an individual before releasing him/her?
Are you on drugs? How the heck did Nazi German occupying forces 'establish the
true nationality and reasons for imprisonment of an individual before
releasing him'? By doing D.N.A. tests on the spot? Self-declaration and some
objective suggestive traits (e.g. facility with Bulgarian or Bulgarian-like
dialects) did the trick. BTW, this was NOT a minor affair within occupied
Greece, despite the small number of people involved. Apparently, our
interlocutor doesn't know a whole lot about the Occupation years in Greece.
>> Anyway, if
>> you're assertions are correct 'Macedonians', who
>> according to you colaborated with the Nazis, could've
>> declared themselves as Macedonians and still be set at
>> liberty - why did they complicate matters by calling
>> themselves Bulgarians?
They did not, that is the point. No one would take seriously anyone declaring
himself a Macedonian by nationality at the time.
>> By the way, where did you get
>> this whole prison thing from?
Are you doubting its veracity? Are you going to shut up when I put up?
>:-) You are actually confirming Stavros' original point!
>This was:
> "Do you know what Slavonic-speaking Macedonians had to do
> in order to escape prison/jail? DECLARE THEMSELVES
> BULGARIANS BY NATIONALITY!"
> The thing with prisoners was Mangovski's idea in the
>second of his 'replies' to you (the indirect and more
>'civil' one).
>\
>> > When the 's*it hit the fan' and it became patently
>> > obvious that having collaborated with the Bulgarians/
>> > Nazis/Italians was a really BAD move, they welcomed
>> > the opportunity to transform themselves into armed
>> > 'liberation' fighters in SNOF or NOF and thus gain
>> > immediate 'absolution' for their past 'sins'.
>>
>> What are "SNOF" and "NOF", please write in full if
>> abreviations are only understood by you!
The fact that these abbreviations are unfamiliar to you demonstrates that you
are entirely ignorant about the specifics of what we are discussing. So, get
to work. I'll hold off providing you the Slavonic full extention of the above
abbreviations, for suspense purposes . . . :-)
> Communist/ guerrilla organisation(s) in the early 1940s,
>'child' of Tito’s aide Vukmanvic-Tempo. Full name "Slav
>National Liberation Front". People who have studied the
>issue say that it may have been instrumental in the
>establishment of a Slav Macedonian consciousness
>separate from Bulgarian (as it had by then developed).
>> Your morally-indignant, emotionally-charged and
>> incoherent narrative is unconvincing, and falls short
>> of an explanation of the events it concerns!
Alas, I am being judged by YOU. If I come up too short in your eyes, I must be
doing a good job. You're in for the ride of your life, dear friend, if you
continue to challenge me like this on the facts. I hope you will have the guts
to admit your ignorance, if and when I choose to entertain your questions,
simply for educational and amusement purposes.
> Crap! If you had asked 10 times and he hadn't explained
>himself you might have a point. For the rest of us who
>follow the conversation, and know what he says and the
>terminology he uses, your call is unjustified.
>> > "And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the
>> > other peoples in the ways of reason and speech, that
>> > her disciples did in turn enlighten others, and the
>> > name of the Hellenes is now considered pertinent not
>> > to race but rather to spirit, to the point of
>> > calling Hellenes those with whom we share education
>> > and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
>> > share in nature."
>> >
>> > Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
>> You do your cause a disservice by quoting the above
>> passage out of context!
What is my 'cause', learned friend? Listen, newbie, do a search on
alt.news.macedonia for the past six months or so, and you'll see what I mean
to convey with the above passage.
> Newcomers in the forum say a similar things, and I have
>yet to see one who knows what he is actually commenting
>on. :-)
That the Greek nation is a community of spirit, not a community of blood or
nature. This is what you all are so jealous of. You see, to most of us,
anyone who proclaims that he is not a Greek, is thereby considered to be a
non-Greek by ethno-national identity. You, OTOH, cling to outdated
primordialist and essentialist notions of nationality . . . too bad for you.
><del>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
"And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the other peoples
in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
share in nature."
Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
Regards,
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
I BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT OF PAYBACK. IF IT TOOK THE NAZIS TO TEACH YOU
"PEOPLE" A LESSON, THEN SO BE IT. THE MORE THE MERRIER! HOPEFULLY, THEY
KEPT THE OVENS ALL STOKED UP AND SOAP FACTORY DIDN'T SUFFER ANY BACKLOGS.
YOU PEOPLE ARE SELF-CENTERED LIKE THE RUSSIANS. THEY KICKED THEIR STALINIST
ASS SO ACCORDING TO THEM THE GERMANS MUST HATE ALL SLAVS. OF COURSE WE
FORGET THEY WERE ALLIES WITH MACEDONIA, BULGARIA, UKRAINE AND CROATIA. THEY
KICKED YOUR PIECE OF SHIT GREEK ASS SO OF COURSE THEY HATED MACEDONIANS?
(WELL, MAYBE ONLY THE DIRT-SQUATTING KIND.)
ITS A GOOD THING YOUR FATHER SURVIVED. THE LORD ONLY KNOWS WHAT A LOSS
MANKIND WOULD HAVE SUFFERED WITHOUT HIS GYRO-FLIPPING SERVICES. AND, OF
COURSE, HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HELP SPAWN OUR BUDDING SOCIOLOCIST. ONE
HAS TO QUESTION WHETHER HUMANITY WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SURVIVE THIS LOSS...
Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
TRUE MACEDONIAN
Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
In article <karageor.27...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N
Karageorgis) writes:
>In article <clint.207...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada> cl...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada (Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway) writes:
>Hi Hope,
>I thought you would enjoy the following pearl of wisdom by your 'defender'
>Daniel Balaloski in his latest incarnation . . .
>>In article <karageor.27...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N
>>Karageorgis) writes:
>>>I can't believe you jockers are pretending that the Nazi German soldiers were
>>>'civilized' and did not commit atrocities in Greece! The streets of Athens and
>>>Piraeus were littered with human corpses of people dying of starvation, that
>>>had to be picked up by a municipal cart and mass buried, entire male
>>>populations of villages allegedly harboring resistance fighters were
>>>fire-squaded en masse, little kids had their arms broken in cold blood by
>>>'civilized' German Nazi soldiers for daring to pick up a loaf of bread that
>>>had fallen of a German lawry, and so on and so forth, and we FOOLS are waxing
>>>lyrical about great Nazi German 'liberators'. And you are not ashamed to write
>>>such things down.
>>>My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
gUn. sGt. ToMa HiGhWaYeV
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway wrote:
> In article <karageor.27...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) writes:
>
> >My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
> >filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!
[del]
> I DONT CARE WHAT THE NAZIS DID TO YOU FILTHY PIECES OF GARBAGE. AS FAR AS I'M
> CONCERNED, THE MORE ATROCITIES THAT WERE COMMITTED AGAINST THE GREEKS, THE
> BETTER.
>
> MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT IN GREECE. MAYBE THEY BEAT UP ON THE SERBS, BUT THE
> FACT REMAINS THAT THEY LEFT THE MACEDONIANS ALONE
>
> Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
> TRUE MACEDONIAN
> Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
BALGAROSKI,
THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ABOUT YOU!!! ALTHOUGH YOU ARE AN OVERQUALIFIED
CALLUS-ASSED LOW-LIFE PIECE OF TITOIST-INSPIRED-ETHNOPLASM-SOURCED
MID-WESTERN NEO-HITLERITE DANNYKKK WHITE TRASH, YOU ALWAYS SPEAK WHAT'S
IN
YOUR FYROMIAN NAZI-TO-THE-CORE ARYAN666 LITTLE HEART!!! AND I LIKE THAT
IN
A MAN!!! NO FRILLS -- WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!!
UNLIKE YOUR PATHETIC BRETHREN WHO TRY TO STITCH TOGETHER A FEEBLE-MINDED
HISTORY FOR THEIR TIN-POT TENANT-FARMING HEROIN-PEDDLING BANANA
REPUBLIC, RAPACIOUSLY THIEVING FROM ANCIENT GREEK TO MEDIEVAL BULGARIAN
HISTORIES, ALSO PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS 'FIGHTERS AGAINST NAZISM' ALONG
THE WAY -- ON THE BACK OF THE REAL SERBIAN STRUGGLE AGAINST THE KRAUTS
-- YOU SHOOT FROM THE HIP AND BARK OUT THE TRUTH -- THAT THE NAZIS WERE
YOUR BENEFACTORS!!! YOU FYROMIANS WERE REALLY NAZI
Radeff
n article <19971109134...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, rad...@aol.comĪ
says...
...
>of Iliad) explains how the Macedonian Emperor Vassili II after defeating
>the Macedonian king Samuel, called himself Bulgaroktonos in order to please
>the Greeks, to confirm his servility to Byzantium and to denigrate and
>humiliate Samuel. Because, Belchev explains, the very word 'Bulgar' meant
>'rabble, riff-raff and rubbish, garbage', giving birth to the epithet 'vulgar'
>meaning 'boorish, dolt, cabbage-head and other strong epithets'(I couldn't
>better translate into English his words 'tikvarski, prostashki,
> opincharski').>>
>Now, finally, the fact of this Bulgarian man not being able to recognize the
> Macedonian word for pumpkin will send the message that our languages are not
> at all the same.
<<Don't hurry with your conclusions, Mrs Radev. 'Tikva' is the Bulg. word for
the plant 'pumpkin', but my Bul-Eng dictionary had only the words
'cabbage-head,
dolt, dunce' for 'tikvenik'. I didn't know 'pumpkin' had the same figurative
meaning as 'tikva' in Bulgarian.>>
I know that the usage of a vegetable as a meaning for a dunce, dolt, etc. is
not only a Macedonian trait. I have seen its usage also in Italian for one
example. Its how its used that distinguishes it. I am surprised that your
dictionary would not give you the true meaning of tikva as you have stated in
your first sentence here and then go into the other usages later. It would be
difficult for someone who does not know your language to able to look up what
you say is the true meaning of pumpkin in Bulgarian. Is this an oversight?
><<I didn't understand although what in the whole story posted by Mr Vitanov
caused
>your grumbling against the Bulgarians. You should 'blame' the citizens of
Ohrid,
>not us. Or better SHOOT YOURSELVES IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE REALITIES !!!>>
>The reality is very simple. Those Macedonians from Ohrid tried to save human
> beings from the atrocities that would have certainly occurred if they gave
> them up. It mattered no who they were, where they came from, etc.
<<Whatever the reality was, it was very nice from your side that you show
respect
towards that action of the citizens of Ohrid. >>
I would always respect an action as this one and my side did its share in doing
the same for others in need. Its been a family tradition.
As I often
> heard it recounted, "edna dusha" (one life) and the connotations can only be
> understood by a Macedonian. I, for one, applaud those citizens for their
> bravery.
<<Me too.>>
>HRA
Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski
Likewise,
HRA
------------------------------------
Babait kah'r suratl'
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat e-mail: e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000080" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>
I.Vitanov
Thanks for translating the extract from K.Tsurnushanov! Unfortunately,
when I posted it and since then, I didn't have the opportunity to
translate it. This rendered the text prone to misinterpretation, by those
in who's interest it was to do so, that would not be immeadiately
apparent to someone who did not speak Bulgarian.
So, thanks again!
I.Vitanov
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
>In article <clint.208...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada>,
>cl...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada says...
>>YOU PEOPLE ARE SELF-CENTERED LIKE THE RUSSIANS. THEY KICKED THEIR STALINIST
>>ASS SO ACCORDING TO THEM THE GERMANS MUST HATE ALL SLAVS. OF COURSE WE
>>FORGET THEY WERE ALLIES WITH MACEDONIA, BULGARIA, UKRAINE AND CROATIA.
>... and Slovakia, but your interpretations are monstrous and you should be
>ashamed of yourself. The whole population of nearly 200 villages in
>Bellorussia was exterminated by the Nazis, they could have done the same
>in Macedonia had they been interested in that. You can be sure the Bellorussian
>peasants were as far from Stalinism as were the Macedonian ones.
BULGARIANS KILLED MACEDONIANS
SERBIANS KILLED MACEDONIANS
GREEKS KILLED MACEDONIANS
I SALUTE *ANYONE* WHO USES *ANY* MEANS TO RIGHT THOSE WRONGS. I WILL BE THE
FIRST IN LINE TO PURCHASE LAMPSHADES AND SOAP TO SUPPORT THESE ENDEAVORS.
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
In article <34658F...@dWbAt.cOm.oHioV> "GuN. sGt. ToMa HiGhWaYeV" <HiGh...@dWbAt.cOm.oHioV> writes:
>Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway wrote:
>> In article <karageor.27...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) writes:
>>
>> >My father and uncle almost died of starvation during the Nazi occupation, you
>> >filthy, low-lying snakes!!!!! Shame on you!
>>
>> I DONT CARE WHAT THE NAZIS DID TO YOU FILTHY PIECES OF GARBAGE. AS FAR AS I'M
>> CONCERNED, THE MORE ATROCITIES THAT WERE COMMITTED AGAINST THE GREEKS, THE
>> BETTER.
>>
>> MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT IN GREECE. MAYBE THEY BEAT UP ON THE SERBS, BUT THE
>> FACT REMAINS THAT THEY LEFT THE MACEDONIANS ALONE
>>
>> Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
>> TRUE MACEDONIAN
>> Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
>BALGAROSKI,
>THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ABOUT YOU!!! ALTHOUGH YOU ARE AN OVERQUALIFIED
>CALLUS-ASSED LOW-LIFE PIECE OF TITOIST-INSPIRED-ETHNOPLASM-SOURCED
>MID-WESTERN NEO-HITLERITE KKK WHITE TRASH, YOU ALWAYS SPEAK WHAT'S IN
>YOUR FYROMIAN NAZI-TO-THE-CORE ARYAN666 LITTLE HEART. AND I LIKE THAT IN
>A MAN!!! NO FRILLS -- WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!!
OVERQUALIFIED? THATS THE BEST PART OF IT. WHEN YOU GET A COUPLE OF ADVANCED
DEGREES AND GET LICENSED BY THE SOVEREIGN TO PRACTICE IN THEIR COURTS YOU
AREN'T SUPPOSED TO TALK LIKE THIS, ARE YOU??????? ONLY UNEDUCATED BUBBAS ARE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE THESE VIEWS, ARENT THEY?
KKK? WHEN I LIVED IN CINCINNAZI, OH, MY APARTMENT WAS ABOUT 2 BLOCKS FROM THE
HOUSE OF THE GRAND WIZARD OF THE OHIO KKK. I ALSO PLAN TO DONATE MONEY TO
BUILD MARGE SCHOTT'S NEW SWASTIKA MUSEUM.
TITOIST? TITO HAD ABOUT AS MUCH IMPACT ON ME AS JANE FONDA AND GLORIA
STEINAM. YOU MIGHT AS WELL LUMP TITO IN WITH THE REST OF THE LAND-GRUBBING
DIRT-SQUATTERS IN THE REGION AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.
NO FRILLS? YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT--BEING A PHONEY TAKES TOO MUCH EFFORT; I
DONT HAVE THE PATIENCE. AND YOU HAVE TO LOVE THE WAY THE POLITICALLY CORRECT
LITTLE WEENIES WHO RUN AND HIDE AT THE SIGHT OF A HOMEBOY JUMP IN THE AIR ...
>UNLIKE YOUR PATHETIC BRETHREN WHO TRY TO STITCH TOGETHER A FEEBLE-MINDED
>HISTORY FOR THEIR TIN-POT TENANT-FARMING HEROIN-PEDDLING BANANA
>REPUBLIC, RAPACIOUSLY THIEVING FROM ANCIENT GREEK TO MEDIEVAL BULGARIAN
>HISTORIES, ALSO PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS 'FIGHTERS AGAINST NAZISM' ALONG
>THE WAY -- ON THE BACK OF THE REAL SERBIAN STRUGGLE AGAINST THE KRAUTS
YES THE DESCENDANT OF A LANDLESS, LOWLY LITTLE DIRT SQUATTER (OR MAYBE
GRKOMAN, PERHAPS?) WHO WAS ALL TOO HAPPY TO ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET FOR THE
NAZIS SO LONG AS THEY RID YOUR LAND OF THE JEWS SO YOU COULD HAVE MORE LAND TO
SQUAT ON CASTS ASPERSIONS ON ANOTHER PEOPLE. IF YOU WANT TO RUN SO MUCH
FROM YOUR UGLY HISTORY, MY SUGGESTION IS FOR YOU TO GO BACK TO TURKEY, KISS
THE ASS OF YOUR REMAINING COUSINS AND UNCLES THERE AND CONVERT BACK TO THE
MUSLIM RELIGION. YOUR RELATIVES THERE WILL GREET YOU WITH OPEN ARMS AND YOU
DON'T HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE UGLY REALITY THAT YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A
HOMELESS LYING LITTLE DIRT SQUATTER WITH NO LAND, NO COUNTRY AND NO HOMELAND.
GO BACK HOME!
I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SERBS EITHER. THEY GOT WHAT WAS COMING
TO THEM TOO.
>-- YOU SHOOT FROM THE HIP AND BARK OUT THE TRUTH -- THAT THE NAZIS WERE
>YOUR BENEFACTORS. YOU FYROMIANS WERE REALLY NAZI
>SYMPATHIZERS/COLLABORATORS ALL ALONG!!! AND AS WE NOW KNOW, FROM EVEN
>BEFORE THE WAR (SEE BELOW)!!! THAT IS WHY THE NAZIS DID NOT TOUCH YOU!!!
>YOU WERE MODEL NAZI CITIZENS!!!
WHEN ITS A CHOICE BETWEEN SERBIAN-NAZI, BULGARIAN-NAZI, OR GREEK-NAZI ... I'LL
TAKE GERMAN NAZIS ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. AT LEAST THEY BATHE ONCE A WEEK
AND AREN'T A BUNCH OF FAGGOTS.
>BUT BECAUSE YOU GOT OFF LIGHTLY IN THE LAST WAR BY TYPICALLY SELLING
>YOUR UNPRINCIPLED TENANT FARMING MONGOLOSKI ASSES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER
>(FIVE YEARS LATER YOU WERE ALL HAPPILY SINGING THE INTERNATIONALE), WE
>WILL MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT SO LUCKY THE NEXT TIME ROUND!!! CARAVAN TO
>KAZAKHSTAN ANY WAY YOU CAN!!!!! BEFORE IT'S ALL TOO LATE.....
>P.S. FROM A PREVIOUS POST.....(NOTE BALGAROSKI'S DEFIANT AND UNREPENTANT
>FYROMIAN
>NAZI RESPONSE. AT LEAST HE'S HONEST!!!):
>Predator wrote:
>>In article <344942BB...@cYbOrGoV.cOm
>>tErMiNaToV <tErMi...@cYbOrGoV.cOm> writes:
>>>FYROM=NAZI SYMPATHIZERS/COLLABORATORS
>>>
>>>"By the 1930s, 'Macedonian' terrorists were hiring themselves out to
>>>radical groups throughout Europe -- in particular, to the Croatian
>>>Ustashe, whose chief paymaster was the fascist dictator of Italy, Benito
>>>Mussolini."
>>>
>>>"Balkan Ghosts" (p.66)
>>>Robert D. Kaplan
>>>
>>>tErMiNaToV
>>
>>And if anything ever happens to Macedonian sovereignty again, you can rest
>>assured that those activities will be resurrected. Beginning in Athens.
I'LL CUT THE FIRST CHECK TO PAY FOR THE BOMB.
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
True Macedonian
Descendant of King Philip and Alexander the Great
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <clint.209...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada>,
cl...@heartbreak-ridge.com.grenada says...
>>... and Slovakia, but your interpretations are monstrous and you should be
>>ashamed of yourself. The whole population of nearly 200 villages in
>>Bellorussia was exterminated by the Nazis, they could have done the same
>>in Macedonia had they been interested in that. You can be sure the Bellorussian
>>peasants were as far from Stalinism as were the Macedonian ones.
>BULGARIANS KILLED MACEDONIANS
>SERBIANS KILLED MACEDONIANS
>GREEKS KILLED MACEDONIANS
Where is your full story, dear, your integral story. You cannot produce one, you
cannot link logically the events in that, as in any other period of time. I don't
read anything interesting from your side, just pompous slogans and deep feelings
of injustice fell upon you, which won't make your stories look more plausible.
>I SALUTE *ANYONE* WHO USES *ANY* MEANS TO RIGHT THOSE WRONGS. I WILL BE THE
>FIRST IN LINE TO PURCHASE LAMPSHADES AND SOAP TO SUPPORT THESE ENDEAVORS.
Go figure Mister, you are shame for our people, we have Vassil Levski, Hadzhi
Dimitar, Goce Delchev, Kapitan Petko vojvoda, who cared for all people, had they
been Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks or others.
>Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway
>TRUE MACEDONIAN
>Descendant of Philip and Alexanderb
Vassil Karloukovski,
true descendant of Ilija&Elissaveta Karloukovski and Georgi&Maria Delchev
kara...@ucla.edu
In article <346936...@csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
"I.Vitanov" <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> If you are the much learned scholar, that you present yourself to
> be, then the Bulgarian ethnic belonging of the slav-Macedonians could not
> have escaped you, why then are you pretending not to know better? Or is
> this, perhaps, a manifestation of the old maxim: divide and rule?
What 'Bulgarian ethnic belonging' is that? Is this something that you
divine externally? What if those whom YOU and other Bulgarians consider
as partaking of 'Bulgarian ethnic belonging' disagree with you, and
conceive and identify themselves as 'ethnically belonging' to other
ethno-nations? Which is more important, your external ascription of an
ethnic conscience to certain people, or THEIR OWN self-ascription by
ethnicity or ethno-nationality?
[Most of the Macedonian Slavonic -speaking Macedonians who were released
from Greek prisons by the Occupying forces, having declared themselves
Bulgarians by nationality did not join]
> either the EAM nor the Partizans in the
> mountains right away. Most of them joined the Bulgarian regular and
>irregular occupation forces FIRST. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Really?!! So would you consider the welcome, as conveyed by sources too
> numerate to list, extended to Bulgarian troops who were greeted by
> showering with flowers and ringing of church bells when they entered
> Macedonia, to be one associated with the entrance of an "occupying
> force"?
It would be nice if you were able to comprehend what is written ,instead
of inferring what you would prefer were there. The only extensive welcome
extended to Bulgarian troops was done in Vardar Macedonia, and in few
places in Eastern and Central Greek Macedonia. All this is of course
irrelevant to what we are discussing here. The Bulgarian forces in Greek
Macedonia were OCCUPYING forces, period. And many of the claimed
Macedonians (by ethno-nationality) who were released by the Germans
joined them. Thus, people today talking of Macedonians by
ethno-nationality being released from jail because the Nazis were
kind-hearted humanitarians and friends of the Macedonians by
ethno-nationality, and preferable to Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbians,
are blowing hot-air. What we are talking about is about opportunists who
would side with whomever, and do whatever to save their skins. These
'Bulgarians' in your point of view, switched sides a couple of years
later and magically transformed themselves into 'Macedonian anti-fascist
freedom fighters'. If you want to claim such peoples as Bulgarian by
'ethnic belonging' then suit yourself.
Constantin Polychronakos
> >Mr. T wrote:
> >> . . . My take on what happened in
> >> >WW2 was that most Macedonians (at least in the south) although apprehensive,
> >> >welcomed the Germans in much the same way. My mother says everyone in her
> >> >village was in awe of the Germans. My father also speaks about the Germans
> >> >in a very complementary manner. The Germans returned the treatment in kind
> >> >and did little against the Macedonian people.
>
Read some history, Mr. Danny T.
In 1941, Slav-Macedonians enthusiastically welcomed the Nazis for
liberating them from the Serbs. What is now the territory of the
Republic of Makedonija was annexed to Mother Bulgaria outright, with the
enthusiastic support (at least at the beginning) of the vast majority of
its inhabitants. For documentation, read "Who are the Macedonians" by
Hugh Poulton. Had the Nazis won the war, the Bulgaria of San Stefano
would have been a rality.
I understand your admiration of the Nazis, but the notion of
Macedonia as a state separate from Bulgaria was only advanced by Tito
after the Nazis were defeated.
Constantin
Stavros N Karageorgis
>Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>>
>> In article <8792988...@dejanews.com> jpr...@essex.ac.uk (John Prodromidis)
>writes:
>> At my server, I received this version before the original response by Mr.
>> Vitanov.
>>
>> >I.Vitanov (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) just wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>> >> >
>>
>> >> What do you mean by "refugee villages"? Could these be
>> >> the homes of the hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians
>> >> forced out of Agean Macedonia after WW1, settled by
>> >> Greek colonists from Asia minor?
>>
>> No, and quit bullshiting. The lands of Macedonian Slavonic or
>> Bulgarian-speaking Macedonian peasants who voluntarily moved to Bulgaria
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> pursuant to the provisions of the Neuilly Treaty were a miniscule part of the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> lands,
>Stavros, your assertions are getting beyond a joke! Macedonian peasants
>"voluntarily" leaving their homes and property "pursuant of the
>provisions of the Neuilly Treaty"!!?
A whole lot more voluntarily than the Greek-identified citizens of Bulgaria
who fled Bulgaria to come to Greece. In fact, many non-Greek identified
Macedonians were specifically 'implored' (read 'forced') by the VMRO to 'stay
put' so that it and the Bulgarian governments (whenever it chose to be open
about it) could continue to claim THEM and their lands in their irredentist
campaigns.
>Do you expect even the
>feeble-minded to believe that the dictat, which imposed huge reparations
>and territorial losses on Bulgaria, contained such generous provisions
>as to lure Bulgarians from the Aegean regions to leave their houses and
>livelihoods behind in order to attain them?
Yes, I do. Would you be willing to reproduce the relevant parts of the Neuilly
Treaty for all, feeble-minded or not, to see and make up their own minds as to
who is right? How 'generous' were the provisions for the Greeks of Bulgaria
which 'lured' them to flee Bulgaria almost to the person? What exactly do the
provisions of the Neuilly Treaty dealing with Bulgaria itself have to do with
the provisions dealing with the voluntary exchange of populations between
Greece and Bulgaria?
>Furthermore, do you really
>think that these peasants of the early 20th century were acquainted with
>the specifics of the Neuilly Treaty, let alone with the clauses dealing
>with 'provisions'.
You are asking peculiar questions, again, and showing how little you actually
know about the specifics. There are many scholarly articles and books about
the Greco-Bulgarian exchange of populations pursuant to the Neuilly Treaty.
Article 56, paragraph 2, of the Treaty of Peace between the Allied and
Associated Powers and Bulgaria, signed at Neuilly-sur-Seine on November 27,
1919, provided that "Bulgaria undertakes to recognize such provisions as the
Principal Allied and Associated Powers may consider opportune with respect to
the reciprocal and voluntary emigration of persons belonging to racial
minorities." The Principal Allied and Associated Powers, in a decision issued
the same day, announced that they considered it 'opportune that the reciprocal
and voluntary emigration of racial, religious, and linguistic minorities in
Greece and Bulgaria be regulated by a Convention concluded between these two
Powers in the terms decided upon this day." Such a convention was singed at
Neuilly-sur-Seine on the same day, November 27, 1919, by the Greek and
Bulgarian plenipotentiaries.
The idea of a reciprocal emigration of national minorities between Greece and
Bulgaria originated with Mr. Venizelos; secondly, the Convention with respect
to Reciprocal Emigration was conceived as a supplement to the provisions of
the treaties for the protection of minorities; thirdly, the Bulgarian
government welcomed the Convention with satisfaction; and, finally, the
Convention was so drawn as to insure full reciprocity between the two
countries.
I would gladly engage in a private or public exchange on the specifics of the
Convention above mentioned, on its text, on its origins, and on its
implementation. But, you have to show me that this will be a mutually
beneficial exercize. So far, you have not.
> Of course, you'd have us believe that the Greek
>authorities and militant settlers looked on with complete indifference,
>or even with sorrow, at this migration, and offered no encouragement
>whatsoever.
What 'militant settlers' are you talking about? Be more specific. Moreover,
isn't it a bit ironic for a Bulgarian to be talking about 'strong-arming'
tactics on the part of Greek authorities when the strong-arming tactics of the
Bulgarian govenrment and Bulgarian mobs in areas where Greeks lived in
Bulgaria are well-known, and doubted by nobody? Again, I will gladly discuss
the implementation of the Convention at length and in detail if you wish, but
you have to come prepared with actual knowledge, and not with just your
hunches and your prejudices.
>As to the "miniscule part of the lands" on which these refugees had
>supposedly lived, even the Greek sources contradict that.
Based on the above riposte, I, for one, would expect you to provide evidence
of the ACREAGE of the lands left behind by the departing Bulgarians. Most
Bulgarian-identified Macedonians in Eastern and Central Greek Macedonia were
landless chiftlik-attached peasants. In NW Greek Macedonia, there has never
been enough arable land for anyone, of whatever national orientation (if any)
to be large land-owners. Anyway, instead of attempting to contradict my point,
that dealt with the land owned or even customarily possessed of the departing
Bulgarian-identified peasants, with figures about land acreage, you offer the
following:
> The Greek
>comendant of Lerin (Florina), for example, in a report to his superior -
>written in the late 1920's, speaks, among other things, of a Bulgarian
>majority of around 80 000 in the Lerin area alone.
Really? More recycling of propaganda. Please provide the precise reference to
this alleged report. Moreover, you are speaking of NW Greek Macedonia, an area
from which not too many 'Bulgarians' departed, and the arable land of which is
miniscule compared to that of Central and Eastern Greek Macedonia. Finally,
nothing in the above speaks to the question of the proportion of the lands of
departing Bulgarian-identified peasants vis-a-vis the total land acreage that
was used to re-settle refugees from Asia Minor, Pontos, Anatolia and Caucasus.
I shall await your further elucidation on this matter, but I fear that you
will have none to offer. You really don't seem to know a whole lot of the
details of what you so eagerly want to discuss.
>However, the complete lack of objectivity and blind fanaticism of your
>statements is their strongest repudiation!
The above is obviously in the eye of the beholder. Any time you want to
compare facts and figures, I shall be here.
> If you want
>> facts and figures please ask further and I will provide them. Have you ever
>> read Jacques Ancel's _La Macedoine, son Evolution Contemporaine_, published in
>> 1930, in Paris, by Librairie Delagrave? If not, please do.
>I have some reservations concerning the book you cite.
Question: Have you read the cited book?
> It was written in
>the period when fears of revisionism, by the former central powers, were
>most rampant and when the Little Antente was created to check any such
>tendancies. The book, according to the given information, was written by
>a Frenchman and published in France - the country responsible for
>imposing
>the unjust Neuillly dictat. The fact that you do not mention which
>sources were used to get the facts and figures contained in it is even
>more suggesstive about its impartiality.
I simply provided full bibliographical reference to what is considered a great
source on the matter we are discussing. You, strangely, launched into a silly
diatribe against the book (one which you obviously have not read) and its
author, on account of his being French! Is this how you deal with all
scholarly work on subjects which bear on your allegations and arguments?
>Have you, on the other hand, read the Carnegie Report of the causes and
>conduct of the Balkan wars - considered the most neutral survey of those
>events.
Yes.
> It clearly testifies that south-western Macedonia, including the
>Solun (Salonika) hinterland, had a majority Bulgarian population in
>1913.
>Not much is likely to have changed, in terms of the ethnic composition
>of the area, by the next migration wave in the 20s.-
How so? I fail to follow your logic. Anyway, how does the Carnegie
Commission's report bear on the question of the proportion of lands used for
re-settlement of refugees that formerly belonged (by deed or custom) to
departing Bulgarian-identified Macedonian peasants, pursuant to the Convention
above mentioned? Do you have a ball-park figure of that proportion to offer? I
maintain that the bulk of that land was formerly Muslim-owned land, and I am
willing and able to back it up with scholarly evidence. Your turn now.
<snip>
>The statistics and figures I've seen, John, have left me with the
>impression that there was an influx of over 100 thousand Bulgarian
>refugees. Otherwise, I tend to agree with you. Anyway, your statements
>are in pleasing contrast with Stavros' absurd rambling over this issue.
'Absurd ramblings' as compared with your erudite and scholarly comments
vis-a-vis Ancel's book . . . I repeat my question. What proportion (or
percentage) of the lands dedicated to re-settling Greek-Orthodox refugees was
previously owned (by deed or custom) by departed Bulgarian-identified
Macedonian peasants?
<snip>
> You
>> want to call them all Bulgarian, the Serbs want to call them all Serbian, and
>> the ethno-national Macedonians want to call them all Macedonian. In any case,
>> I was refering to the language they spoke, NOT their ethnological background
> ^^^^^^^^
>You're contradicting yourself again - formerly you said you meant
>"Southern Slavonic dialects" now you claim your reference was "to the
>language they spoke"!??
Only Bulgarians and ethno-national Macedonians make SUCH a big deal of this
distinction. This is trivial. In Ottoman Macedonia, a South Slavonic
linguistic continuum from Serbian to Bulgarian existed. Dialects thereof were
spoken by most Christian peasants as their natal tongue. Bulgarian linguistic
nationalist claims notwithstanding, natal language did NOT coincide with
ethno-national identity in the Ottoman Balkans (and elsewhere). If you wish to
claim that all Southern-Slavonic speaking-peasants of Ottoman Macedonia spoke
a variant of the Bulgarian language, go ahead. The question is: so what? Does
this make them all Bulgarians by ethno-national identity?
>
>> or their ethno-national conscience (if any).
> ^^^^^^^
>This is exactly what I'm talking about, you keep implying that the
>slav-Macedonian populus was a confused mass with no "ethno-national"
>identitiy.
No, I am not implying, I am arguing forthrightly, and I have the evidence to
back it up. There was nothing 'confused' about conservative peasants not
having developed fixed ethno-national identities in the Ottoman Balkans. It
may appear 'confused' from your late 20th century nationalist eyes, but I can
assure you that what appeared confused to most peasants at the time was the
notiion that they HAD to have and declare ONE exclusive identity.
> If your knowledge of the subject-matter runs as deep as you
>profess, you should be aware that the slav-Macedonians, at the time,
>considered themselves to be Bulgarians and spoke a Western-Bulgarian
>dialect.
No, I am not aware, specifically because of my knowledge of the
subject-matter. You see, dear friend, you make too strong a case for your
position. Had the matter been so clear-cut, there would never have been a
Macedonian question, at all. If all the Macedonian Slavs considered themselves
to be Bulgarians, indistinguishable from the Bulgarians of Bulgaria proper,
they would have all sided with the Bulgarian religious and secular cause, and
Bulgaria's goals would have all been accomplished. Alas, that is NOT what
happened. You, the Bulgarians, did not develop the terms Grkomani and Srbomani
for nothing you know . . .
>>
>> >> Are you, perhaps, trying to avoid saying
>> >> Bulgarian-speaking by referring to "slav-speaking
>> >> persons".
>>
>> I couldn't care less what you call the language they spoke. If you want to
>> claim them all as Bulgarians, or as lost and brainwashed Bulgarians, suit
>> yourself. It obviously makes you feel better, but, alas, it changes absolutely
>> nothing about past history.
>On the contrary, it changes quite quite a lot about past history. If you
>attribute a particular "ethno-national" identity and
>language-affiliation, which is wrong, to a people involved in a past
>historic event, then the error is propagnated and the event acquires a
>new and false complexion.
And how do you know what the 'correct' attribution of ethno-national identity
to such people would be? Please enlighten me, give me your ethno-national
identity attribution rule/scheme. In general, I feel bad that you have to
imagine all kinds of big, bad boogey men to explain how all these allegedly
overwhelmingly and clearly Bulgarian people failed to act as such, and
frustrated the territorial hopes, dreams and policies of Bulgaria. I mean,
reality is really quite painfully at odds with your perceptions and
assertions. What proportion of the ancestors of all those alleged 100%
Bulgarian Macedonian Slavs of the late 19th and early 20th century that
dominated the Christian population of Ottoman and early post-Ottoman Macedonia
today identify themselves as Bulgarians, dear friend? You can continue to
claim them as 'lost Bulgarians' till kingdom come, but can you change reality?
No, you can't.
>>
>> >>You've done it before though, the old
>> >> favourite "slavophone greeks" springs to mind.
>>
>> Who's the 'you' above? BTW, there have been and still exist thousands of
>> Macedonians who have a Greek ethno-national conscience and whose native or
>> ancestral language was part of the South Slavonic linguistic continuum.
>Yeah right! I can't believe that you're claiming that the term
>'slavophone greek', which is used to disguise the existence of a
>Bulgarian population in Agean Macedonia, has any basis in fact.
As much basis in fact as the appelation Grkomani, which you and yours have
used and still use to describe alleged 'Bulgarians' who have been 'confused'
or have been 'traitors' to 'their' nation.
> I'm
>curious as to how these 'ethnic' Greeks happened to have a 'slav'
>ancestral language.
I don't know what YOU mean by 'ethnic Greeks'? Is this some kind of genetic,
blood-based concept? Notice that I always speak of ethnic or ethno-national
IDENTITIES, not 'essenses' or 'substances'. The fact that you are unable to
even conceive of people who have a Greek ethno-national IDENTITY but whose
ancestral or natal tongue was/is not Greek shows that you are nothing but an
incorrigible naive primordialist/essentialist nationalist. Let me ask you
this: Do you think that those who identified themselves as Greeks in Bulgaria,
and who en masse emigrated to Greece pursuant to the above discussed
Greco-Bulgarian Convention were ethnologically (which appears to be what you
understand by 'ethnic') Greek? What about the Grecophone Muslims of Crete? Do
you think they were 'ethnic Greeks'?
<snip>
>
> non-Slavonic speaking
>> persons would have a hard time convincing anybody that they were in fact
>> Bulgarians by nationality (In Greece being non-Grecophone =/= being non-Greek,
>How did you reach that conclusion? By reference to the novel concept of
>Hellenism, which you reiterate at the end of all your postings?
Huh? How many people who identified themselves as Bulgarians have been known
(in history) to have not been Bulgarophone or at least Slavophone? OTOH,
thousands of people who identified themselves as Greeks were not Grecophone by
natal or ancestral language.
<snip>
>> From what my colleague, a Bulgarian, whose father had to flee to Bulgaria
>> after he foolishly demonstrated publically in the streets when the Bulgarian
>> 'policing' forces entered the Drama region, told me, life in Bulgaria SUCKED
>> for them.
>We have to take your word for that, of course, Stavros!
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
<snip>
> How the heck did Nazi German occupying forces 'establish the
>> true nationality and reasons for imprisonment of an individual before
>> releasing him'? By doing D.N.A. tests on the spot? Self-declaration and some
>> objective suggestive traits (e.g. facility with Bulgarian or Bulgarian-like
>> dialects) did the trick.
>How about prison records, evidence of other inmates etc.
Do you have any evidence that any of the above were used?
>By the way, the Watson-Crick model of DNA didn't exist during the war,
>let alone DNA tests. So "doing DNA tests", was not really a viable
>alternative!
Gee, I really meant that they would do DNA tests on the spot . . . How'bout
that medicinal marijuana for you, dear friend?
>I doubt that knowledge of Bulgarian sufficed in releasing a political
>prisoner, or any other for that matter!
You may doubt all you want, but unless you provide contrary evidence . . .
<snip>
>> >> By the way, where did you get
>> >> this whole prison thing from?
>> Are you doubting its veracity? Are you going to shut up when I put up?
>Oh, calm yourself down!
>All these idle threats merely confirm your ineptitude in proving
>anything!!
You're a funny man. Thank you for joining us, here. We needed the comic
relief. I submit to your superior abilities to prove everything you say. Alas,
that specimen of 'proving ability' you demonstrated above with respect to
Ancel's book established once and for all that you are an intellectual force
to be reckoned with. I shall tread much more carefully from now on, since I
now know what kind of a mental giant you are. Thanks for kindly showing me the
error of my ways.
>> > The thing with prisoners was Mangovski's idea in the
>> >second of his 'replies' to you (the indirect and more
>> >'civil' one).
>No, I meant from which historical sources was the 'thing' derived.
What 'thing' is that?
<snip>
>> That the Greek nation is a community of spirit, not a community of blood or
>> nature.
>You make the "Greek nation" sound like a sect.
Finally, you got it! Yes, indeed, being a Hellene has not been a matter of
obligatory identifications based on genes or ancestral/natal language for
centuries. And we like it like that. We don't want to claim as 'ethnic Greeks'
people who obviously do not so identify themselves. You, on the other hand, .
. .
> This is what you all are so jealous of.
>Who are "you all"?
Bulgarians and ethno-national Macedonians.
> You see, to most of us,
>> anyone who proclaims that he is not a Greek, is thereby considered to be a
>> non-Greek by ethno-national identity. You, OTOH, cling to outdated
>> primordialist and essentialist notions of nationality . . . too bad for you.
>I like the way in which you elevated yourself to the position of
>spokesman for the Greek nation, in the course of your explanation.
What's it to you? Do you consider yourself part of that nation, and resent the
fact that I allegedly spoke on your behalf?
>VANCHO
Stavros N Karageorgis
>Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>> No, and quit bullshiting. The lands of Macedonian Slavonic or
>> Bulgarian-speaking Macedonian peasants who voluntarily moved to Bulgaria
>> pursuant to the provisions of the Neuilly Treaty were a miniscule part of the
>> lands, mostly formerly owned and occupied by Muslim chiftlik-owners and Muslim
>> small land-holders as well as formerly uncultivated (mostly grazing lands and
>> swamps) that were distributed to communities of Asia Minor, Pontic, Eastern
>> Thrakian, and Caucasian Greek-Orthodox REFUGEES for re-settlement. If you want
>> facts and figures please ask further and I will provide them. Have you ever
>> read Jacques Ancel's _La Macedoine, son Evolution Contemporaine_, published in
>> 1930, in Paris, by Librairie Delagrave? If not, please do.
>Just as a curiosity, what are the figures you have for the refugee
>"resettlement"? I disagree with you on the quality of the the land that
>they were given.
Kupie Stefanou, deite sas napakalw to napanavw biblio gia 'facts and figures'.
Oson afopa thv noiothta ths ghs nou elabav oi nposfuges nou eidate oti ekava
mveia ths noiothtas auths ths ghs? Mhnws dev npose3ate oti egpaya oti h
nleiovothta auths ths ghs htav gh Mousoulmavwv tsiflikadwv? Se agovh gh
tsiflikia dev enizouv. Apa, ev gevei kai oxi kovta sto 'nepi8wpio' (not at the
margin) oi nposfuges nou egkatasta8hkav sthv Makedovikh unai8po elabav apketa
eufopes kai napagwgikes gaies, napolo nou oi oikogeneiakoi klhpoi htav mikpoi.
Mazi me tis kalliepghtikes de3iotexvies MEPIKWN an'autwv (kai dh twv
Avatoliko-8pakiwtwv, nou enishs hp8av nolles fopes me ta unozugia kai ta
'epgaleia' tous), kai dhmosia epga apdeushs, enisthomvikhs kalliepgeias,
ano3hpavshs elwv, ka8ws kai ws eva ba8mo npostateutikwv tarriff policies, to
napanavw dedomevo boh8hse sto va metatpanei h Ellhvikh nleov Makedovia se
idiaitepa napagwgiko tomea ths npwtogevous napagwghs ths Elladas.
Dev mou lete, enishs, npos ti ta eisagwgika ("") gupw ano to resettled? Poios
opos vomizete eseis oti eivai nio domikos gia tous nposfuges? Mhnws 'dirt
squatters'?
Xaipete kupie Petpo Stefanou!
>Peter Stefanou
Peter Stefanou
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> No, and quit bullshiting. The lands of Macedonian Slavonic or
> Bulgarian-speaking Macedonian peasants who voluntarily moved to Bulgaria
> pursuant to the provisions of the Neuilly Treaty were a miniscule part of the
> lands, mostly formerly owned and occupied by Muslim chiftlik-owners and Muslim
> small land-holders as well as formerly uncultivated (mostly grazing lands and
> swamps) that were distributed to communities of Asia Minor, Pontic, Eastern
> Thrakian, and Caucasian Greek-Orthodox REFUGEES for re-settlement. If you want
> facts and figures please ask further and I will provide them. Have you ever
> read Jacques Ancel's _La Macedoine, son Evolution Contemporaine_, published in
> 1930, in Paris, by Librairie Delagrave? If not, please do.
Just as a curiosity, what are the figures you have for the refugee
"resettlement"? I disagree with you on the quality of the the land that
they were given.
Peter Stefanou
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway
>Constantin
So elated were the Macedonians to rejoin their Bulgarian motherland that the
Bulgarians welcomed back about 50,000+ with a bullet.
Does that sound like they were glad to rejoin mother-Bulgaria to you?
TM
Constantin Polychronakos
Gun. Sgt. Tom Highway wrote:
> So elated were the Macedonians to rejoin their Bulgarian motherland that the
> Bulgarians welcomed back about 50,000+ with a bullet.
>
> Does that sound like they were glad to rejoin mother-Bulgaria to you?
>
> TM
Let me borrow some of your vocabulary: The 50,000+ (whatever, we
are not going to quibble about a few zeroes) were Serbian dirt-squatters
installed in Macedonia after 1913, and Tito-led commies fighting against
the supremacy of the Aryan race.
Seriously now, you were the one who said that Nazi occupation was
good for your country. I just pointed out what Nazi occupation meant to
the vast majority of people who cheered it.
Constantin
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski (ma...@gate.net) wrote on the 11th:
Your national(istic) stereotypes and collective insults
aside, Mangovski...
For those who want to follow the argument:
i. How many 'all' is 'all'?
ii. If your line of arguments is to be meaningful or valid
then it can go either way. Just replace "FYROM claims
which lead to instability in the area and raise anti-
neighborly feelings in other quarters"...
How would you reason with that?