The Greek Macedonian Hero Capetan Kotas (requested by Don Kotas)
miltiadiss
Captain Kotas or Kostas: Born in the village of Roulia (today named Kotas)
in Korestia in 1860, he has been oposed as a young man to the Turkalbanian
local Bey who was opressing the christians. In 1897 he passed in the
guerilla along with Lazos Tsolakis and Athanasios Giorlis from Aposkepos,
Kastoria, Nakos from Sistevo, Alexis Nastos from Tserovo(Kleidi), Florina,
Vasilios Bekniaris from Zelovo(Antartiko), and Spyros Paraskevaidis from
Pampi(Laimos), Prespa. This first guerilla group he formed was totally
independent and was turned strictly against the Turkish opressive rule.
Then, around 1898-99, he came in contact with the IMRO, as he beleived
in the potential of common action of all the christians of Macedonia against
the Turks. He has not been the only slavophone Greek to cooperate with the
Bulgarian comitates, who poretended at this time acting in the interest of
both christian communities of Macedonia. Having defined his priorities, he
said ''let's kill the
bear [the Ottoman rule] and we'll manage easily to share the skin''.
Anyway, he soon became a fierce enemy of the Bulgarian organization. In
August 1900, when the Bulgarians assasinated many Greek Patriots in
Macedonia, he formed a new guerilla group, 100% Greek this time, and became
a real
threat for the Bulgarian interests. The Comitates attempted many times to
kill him, and finally he has been severely wounded in a Bulgarian trap in
October 1900. He collaborated closely with Germanos Karavaggelis, the
Metropolite of Kastoria, the heart of the Greek resistance in Macedonia, who
described him as ''protector of the Orthodox people and terror of the
Bulgarians'', but who was also due later to tragically denounce him
Captain Kotas' first priority was always the brotherhood of all
christians in Macedonia towards the Turks.
The arrival of Gotse Delchev in the Kastoria region in November 1901
intensified the attempts of the Comitates to kill him. They managed to
arrest him but he managed to persuade Gotse Delchev that he had changed
his opinions and got away.
In August 1902 he fought against Mitro Vlachos, Tsakalarof, Kliasef and
other
Bulgarian guerilla groups in a big victorious battle in the village
Ostima(Trigono) near Kastoria. He fought aside Captain Geles' corps and the
Zelovites and Pisoderites Greek patriots under the commands of Tsamis
Papastavros.
Before the Ilin-den revolution, the united Bulagomacedonian corpses of
Kastoria and Florina (around 300 men) attaced Kotas and his fellow-warriors,
but finally retreated before attempting the final battle.
He participated independently in the Ilin-den revolution, refusing to accept
the slightest order from the organising Comitates, but fighting fiercely
the Turks. Captain Kotas never attacked Bulgarian macedonian civilians and
only took action against the Bulgarian Comitates when they murdered Greek
patriots or simple villagers, therefore in a defensive way. He beleived that
all the christians of Macedonia should cooperate against the Ottomans
instead of slaughtering each other. He was a very proud and therefore very
independent person, totally incontrollable.
When the Bulgarian Comitates assasinated the whole family of his friend and
co-fighter Ioannis Zaikos from Bresnitsa (Vatochori) , he revenged by
killing the Voevoda Poptraikof.
In the beginnings of 1904 he went to Athens along with his loyal
collaborators Vasileios Ramos from Ostima, Ilias Gathoutsis, Pavlos Kyrou
from Zelovo ans Simos Stoyannidis from Armensko, in order to prepare, along
with the Greek Army Staff, the plans for the beginning of the Macedonian
Struggle. He returned in Macedonia along with some Greek Officers, including
Pavlos Melas , who testified the important influence of Capetan Kotas
between the Macedonian Greeks.
His Corps, including Euthymios Kaoudis, George Perakis, George
Dikaionymos-Makris, Dimitris Dalipis, Simos Ioannidis, Pavlos Kyrou, Stefos
Grigoriou, Lakis Ntailakis and other Captains, fought repeatedly the
Bulgarian Corpses up to May 1904. His best friend was Captain Kostas Kaoudis
from Crete, they had sworn eternal friendship and common death. But the rest
of his co-fighters became furious with Captain Kotas because, as they
asserted, he did not undertake active action against the Bulgarians. His
ideas for cooperation of the two christian nationalities in Macedonia
against the Turks seperated him from his co-warriors who gradually deserted
him.
Up to the end of his life, Captain Kotas remained an idealist, purehearted
fighter, and has been sacrificed infamely because of his moderate positions
towards friends and enemies. The autoritary Metropolite of Kastoria,
Germanos Karavaggelis, having failed after many attempts to control him and
make him his blind organ, finally gave him up to the Turks who arrested him
and decapitated him in 1904. This is how he ...paid for all his struggles
for Greece.
The Hero Captain Kotas, whose birthplace village bears his name, is
considered today the most important figure in the preparation of the
Macedonian Struggle.
Macedonia is Greece ANY way you look at it
MoltiadisS
Ilinden
znaeshe da zboruva Grcki, toj zboreshe na majchin Makedonski jazik. Se razbravme
sega bre Grchko kopile! Seloto se vikashe Rula ne Kota ili kokoshka.
Ilinden the Macedonian
miltiadiss
wether he was Greek or Grkoman or what. He was a Greek with a big "G". The
Greek state renamed his birth village to Kotas ( before it was Roulia) to
honour him. He called himself Kotas or Kostas Christou and not "Kote". And
his language at birth may have been the Slavomacedonian, but the language of
his HEART was always the GREEK language, because...
...Macedonia is Greece ANY way you look at it!
MiltiadisS
Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message :
39D72C23...@sympatico.ca...
ARCADIAN
a post in his SW Bulgarian language. When he does this, it is his own
admission that you are right. Obviously if he can't respond in English
and in an educated fashion without calling us FTCOGians or Grkomans,
this means he has no rebuttle.
In article <8r80vr$dif$1...@wanadoo.fr>,
--
"For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is worse than
a barbarian. "
-Alexander the Great
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
June R Harton
Ilindra wrote
> Miltiadi: You don't even have the courage to call us by our real name. We
are
> Macedonian
LIAR!
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
Ilinden
French and so forth, Latinospanish, Latinoitalian, Latinoromanian, Latinofrench?
Grow up! As for Kote Christov, he sold himself for a three hundred lire which
the idiot Karavangelis bribed him with. Someone like that the Macedonians
neither want nor need. He is well over to the Greek side, you traitors deserve
each other.
Ilinden
Radeff
>a post in his SW Bulgarian language. When he does this, it is his own
>admission that you are right. Obviously if he can't respond in English
>and in an educated fashion without calling us FTCOGians or Grkomans,
>this means he has no rebuttle.
Oh buuuuuuuuuuuut the interesting part was that he did respond and it was not
altogether a bad response either considering some of his past ones.
Way to go, Milt.
HRA
>In article <8r80vr$dif$1...@wanadoo.fr>,
> "miltiadiss" <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>> Ilinden, Capetan Kotas was a grown-up man himself and was able to
>decide
>> wether he was Greek or Grkoman or what. He was a Greek with a
>big "G". The
>> Greek state renamed his birth village to Kotas ( before it was
>Roulia) to
>> honour him. He called himself Kotas or Kostas Christou and
>not "Kote". And
>> his language at birth may have been the Slavomacedonian, but the
>language of
>> his HEART was always the GREEK language, because...
>>
>> ...Macedonia is Greece ANY way you look at it!
>> MiltiadisS
>>
>> Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message :
>> 39D72C23...@sympatico.ca...
>> > Miltiadi pred 1913 site iminja i preziminja bea Makedonski, Kote
>Hrisov
>> ne
>> > znaeshe da zboruva Grcki, toj zboreshe na majchin Makedonski jazik.
>Se
>> razbravme
>> > sega bre Grchko kopile! Seloto se vikashe Rula ne Kota ili kokoshka.
>> > Ilinden the Macedonian
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
VAPIRO
Excerpts
Apo shmera tou eipa the eisai mazi mas,tha eisai o protos. Tha se steilo
kato na gnorisis tous Ellines.
Eno h boulgaria de stathike ikanh oste h idia na eleutherothi,para thn
eleftherose h Russia. Kai si perimenies tora na eleftherosi kai th
Makedonia.
Ston Kota esteila amesos ena mhniatiko,deka lires gi'auton kai duo gia kathe
ena apo ta paidia tou.
Greek Pension for treachery or what?
miltiadiss <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8r80vr$dif$1...@wanadoo.fr...
VAPIRO
many more heroes to manipulate the Macedonians in believing they fought for
Greece.
He was a weak peasant who sold out the Macedonians for a few shillings.
Read Machiavelli and find out the importance and why the creation of Heroes.
miltiadiss <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8r70ml$e0b$1...@wanadoo.fr...
Anastassios D. Retzios
>Kapetan Kotas is just a character created by the Greeks who also created
>many more heroes to manipulate the Macedonians in believing they fought for
>Greece.
>
>He was a weak peasant who sold out the Macedonians for a few shillings.
>
>Read Machiavelli and find out the importance and why the creation of Heroes.
>
You may want to illuminate us as to whom the "Macedonians" fought for.
For there was a lot of fighting, especially around lake Yannitsa.
Whatever Kapetan Kottas was or was not, the fact is that he died
fighting for a specific cause which did not have an exclusive claim to
monetary gains. Others did as well, as any reasoned research can
easily discover. If anything, you will find that modern Greek
historians tend to present a very balanced view of the national
awakenings in Macedonia in the 19th century.
If you care, check the following link
http://philippos.mpa.gr/other/Gounaris.html
1912
adre...@home.com wrote:
> If you care, check the following link
> http://philippos.mpa.gr/other/Gounaris.html
I stopped reading when I came across the below quoted sentence in the
opening few paragraphs. It is the essense of David Irvineism (historic
revisionism). The thesis deserves conmtempt for outright lying without
shame and so do you.
"In theory, no less than in practice, Athens, Belgrade, and, later on,
Sofia were exclusively concerned with irredentism and completely
disregarded the option to consolidate their states by supporting the
sense of citizenship"
V.
--
The world will forget the Macedonian Holocaust at it's
peril and the perpertrators of it will one day beg for
forgiveness at the pain of revolutionary justice......
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/am/index.html
1912
"miltiadiss" <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> The Greek Macedonian Hero Capetan Kotas
He wasnt Greekkk.
> Captain Kotas or Kostas: Born in the village of Roulia (today named
Kotas)
> in Korestia in 1860, he has been oposed as a young man to the
Turkalbanian
> local Bey who was opressing the christians. In 1897 he passed in the
> guerilla along with Lazos Tsolakis and Athanasios Giorlis from
Aposkepos,
> Kastoria, Nakos from Sistevo, Alexis Nastos from Tserovo(Kleidi),
Florina,
> Vasilios Bekniaris from Zelovo(Antartiko), and Spyros Paraskevaidis
from
> Pampi(Laimos), Prespa. This first guerilla group he formed was totally
> independent and was turned strictly against the Turkish opressive
rule.
>
> Then, around 1898-99, he came in contact with the IMRO, as he beleived
> in the potential of common action of all the christians of Macedonia
against
> the Turks. He has not been the only slavophone Greek
He wasnt Greekkk.
> to cooperate with the
> Bulgarian comitates, who poretended at this time acting in the
interest of
> both christian communities of Macedonia. Having defined his
priorities, he
> said ''let's kill the
> bear [the Ottoman rule] and we'll manage easily to share the skin''.
>
> Anyway, he soon became a fierce enemy of the Bulgarian organization.
In
> August 1900, when the Bulgarians assasinated many Greek Patriots in
> Macedonia, he formed a new guerilla group, 100% Greek this time,
Phil-Hellene/Greekkk you mean.
and became
> a real
> threat for the Bulgarian interests. The Comitates attempted many
times to
> kill him, and finally he has been severely wounded in a Bulgarian
trap in
> October 1900. He collaborated closely with Germanos Karavaggelis, the
> Metropolite of Kastoria, the heart of the Greek resistance in
Macedonia, who
> described him as ''protector of the Orthodox people and terror of the
> Bulgarians'', but who was also due later to tragically denounce him
>
> Captain Kotas' first priority was always the brotherhood of all
> christians in Macedonia towards the Turks.
> The arrival of Gotse Delchev in the Kastoria region in November 1901
> intensified the attempts of the Comitates to kill him. They managed to
> arrest him but he managed to persuade Gotse Delchev that he had
changed
> his opinions and got away.
A pathetic disgrace to the human race he is if he did that. I have no
respect for a man who lies to save his life and denounces the cause he
is fighting for.
The beginnings of the "Macedonian struggle"?. It had begun decades
earlier.
He returned in Macedonia along with some Greek Officers, including
> Pavlos Melas , who testified the important influence of Capetan Kotas
> between the Macedonian Greeks.
>
> His Corps, including Euthymios Kaoudis, George Perakis, George
> Dikaionymos-Makris, Dimitris Dalipis, Simos Ioannidis, Pavlos Kyrou,
Stefos
> Grigoriou, Lakis Ntailakis and other Captains, fought repeatedly the
> Bulgarian Corpses up to May 1904. His best friend was Captain Kostas
Kaoudis
> from Crete,
Hmmm, the Cretans did horrific things in Macedonia during ottoman
times. I wonder what this Cretan was up to.
they had sworn eternal friendship and common death. But the rest
> of his co-fighters became furious with Captain Kotas because, as they
> asserted, he did not undertake active action against the Bulgarians.
His
> ideas for cooperation of the two christian nationalities in Macedonia
> against the Turks seperated him from his co-warriors who gradually
deserted
> him.
>
> Up to the end of his life, Captain Kotas remained an idealist,
purehearted
> fighter, and has been sacrificed infamely because of his moderate
positions
> towards friends and enemies. The autoritary Metropolite of Kastoria,
> Germanos Karavaggelis, having failed after many attempts to control
him and
> make him his blind organ, finally gave him up to the Turks who
arrested him
> and decapitated him in 1904. This is how he ...paid for all his
struggles
> for Greece.
So when it comes down to it that is the reason he is a hero in Greece
the fact that he was foighting for Macedonia's incorpoartion into
Greece. It is not because he was a Greekkk himself- which he wasnt.
> The Hero Captain Kotas, whose birthplace village bears his name, is
> considered today the most important figure in the preparation of the
> Macedonian Struggle.
I told you the Macedonia struggle began well before this deciever was
born.
June R Harton
"1912" wrote wrote:
> I stopped reading when
Noone gives a fig, fyromian (right, Rads? :)
June R Harton
"1912" wrote
> I told you the Macedonia struggle began well before this deciever was
> born.
Duh!
And yes of course he was Greek. And, YOU are in no position to open your
terrorist mouth about anyone, filth.
George S. Tsapanos
In a previous messages of mine, I asked you not to post inaccuracies in here
regarding Historical facts. Today I am in the unpleasant position to take it
with Miltiadis, or for the better with his Historical sources with regards
Kapetan Kottas.
I wasn't going to comment, but the inaccuracies are many and most important are
serious. For various reasons I consider my sources superior than the ones that
Miltiadis used, and I am posting my findings regarding Kottas.
Again, I have no idea about Miltiadis sources, however I am wondering how come
so many mistakes or for the better so many discrepancies should exist.
In addition of checkting various of my sources, I know personally people of the
Kottas family, members of which they were contacted, informed and approved the
books in my poccession.
Nothing against Miltiadis, but we do have a majot problem in here.
So here we go .
Miltiadis wrote:
<< ----- Original Message -----
From: "miltiadiss" <milti...@wanadoo.fr>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 2:36 AM
Subject: The Greek Macedonian Hero Capetan Kotas (requested by Don Kotas)
> The Greek Macedonian Hero Capetan Kotas>
>Captain Kotas or Kostas:>
Absolutely no mention with regards to him as Kapetan Kostas. There is however
reference giving us as his first name to be Kostas rather than Christos as in
many books.
> Born in the village of Roulia (today named Kotas)
in Korestia in 1860,>
According to two of his biographers, general Kontoulis and N.G. Koemtzopoulos
he was born on May the 1st 1863. The real name of the village was CHROULIA (
Xroulia) later it became ROULIA after that KATWCHORION and later KWTTAS.
> he has been oposed as a young man to the Turkalbanian
local Bey who was opressing the christians.>
They were many, the name of the worse of them being KASIM BEY from KAPESTITSA.
>In 1897 he passed in the
guerilla along with Lazos Tsolakis and Athanasios Giorlis from Aposkepos,
Kastoria, Nakos from Sistevo, >
The full name is NAKOS YIANNAKOS PAPANASTASIOU.
>Alexis Nastos from Tserovo(Kleidi), Florina,
Vasilios Bekniaris from Zelovo(Antartiko),
>
The last name is BEKIARIS.
>and Spyros Paraskevaidis from
Pampi(Laimos), Prespa.>
PARASKEYAIDIS joined the group a little later. The name of the village was
RAMBBI.
>This first guerilla group he formed was totally
independent and was turned strictly against the Turkish opressive rule.>
>Then, around 1898-99, he came in contact with the IMRO, as he beleived
in the potential of common action of all the christians of Macedonia against
the Turks. He has not been the only slavophone Greek to cooperate with the
Bulgarian comitates, who poretended at this time acting in the interest of
both christian communities of Macedonia. Having defined his priorities, he
said ''let's kill the
bear [the Ottoman rule] and we'll manage easily to share the skin''.>
Such contact didn't begin till the arrival of the first Bulgarian bands in the
areas of Edessa, Yianitsa and Karatzova in 1890.
Kottas went in there and met with the Bulgars and PETROFF particularly..
>Anyway, he soon became a fierce enemy of the Bulgarian organization. In
August 1900, when the Bulgarians assasinated many Greek Patriots in
Macedonia, he formed a new guerilla group, 100% Greek this time, and became
a real
threat for the Bulgarian interests. The Comitates attempted many times to
kill him, and finally he has been severely wounded in a Bulgarian trap in
October 1900.>
It is not true. This was the first assasination attempt and it was on
September of 1900 between Kelli and VEVI. No previous attempts by the
Bulgarians are recorded.
>He collaborated closely with Germanos Karavaggelis, the
Metropolite of Kastoria, the heart of the Greek resistance in Macedonia, who
described him as ''protector of the Orthodox people and terror of the
Bulgarians'', but who was also due later to tragically denounce him>
Still the record regarding the treason against Kottas has not been fully
written, while his collaboration with Karavaggelis didn't begin until 1901 when
Karavaggelis arrived in Kastoria.
> Captain Kotas' first priority was always the brotherhood of all
christians in Macedonia towards the Turks.>
>The arrival of Gotse Delchev in the Kastoria region in November 1901
intensified the attempts of the Comitates to kill him. They managed to
arrest him but he managed to persuade Gotse Delchev that he had changed
his opinions and got away.>
They didn't manage to arrest him. Kottas went with them after invitation from
Delcef,Markof, and Petrof. Kotas was with his men in a different house when his
elimination was decided, however because they had to move to a different
village because of the Turks and because Delcef changed his mind about the
assasination, allowing Kottas to visit his family before living with them for
Bulgaria in order to be subjected to the ""proper"" indoctrination, he saved
his life. This "partial" collaboration is one of the reasons the SKOPIANS are
still regarding Kottas as one of their people.
> In August 1902 he fought against Mitro Vlachos, Tsakalarof, Kliasef and
other
Bulgarian guerilla groups in a big victorious battle in the village
Ostima(Trigono) near Kastoria.>
August the 19th old calendar.In addition they were Papatraikof and Rozof.
> He fought aside Captain Geles' corps >
The name is GELE (Vaggelis) or GELEF.
Gele was just a friend of Kottas. I can not find any records that GELE had his
own corp.
>and the
Zelovites and Pisoderites Greek patriots under the commands of Tsamis
Papastavros.>
> Before the Ilin-den revolution, the united Bulagomacedonian corpses of
Kastoria and Florina (around 300 men) attaced Kotas and his fellow-warriors,
but finally retreated before attempting the final battle.>
>He participated independently in the Ilin-den revolution, refusing to accept
the slightest order from the organising Comitates, but fighting fiercely
the Turks. Captain Kotas never attacked Bulgarian macedonian civilians and
only took action against the Bulgarian Comitates when they murdered Greek
patriots or simple villagers, therefore in a defensive way. He beleived that
all the christians of Macedonia should cooperate against the Ottomans
instead of slaughtering each other. He was a very proud and therefore very
independent person, totally incontrollable.>
And it was the beginning of unexpalined reaction by Karavaggelis.
>When the Bulgarian Comitates assasinated the whole family of his friend and
co-fighter Ioannis Zaikos from Bresnitsa (Vatochori) , he revenged by
killing the Voevoda Poptraikof.>
The name was PAPATRAIKOF. Kottas didn't kill him. KIZOS and PANOS arrested him
and they were taking him to Kottas when they crossed the exact place where a
year and a half earlier two of our people were killed in a vicious way.The two
decided to eliminate Papatraikof the same exactly way.
>In the beginnings of 1904 he went to Athens along with his loyal
collaborators Vasileios Ramos from Ostima, Ilias Gathoutsis,>
The name is GADOUTSIS.
> Pavlos Kyrou
from Zelovo ans Simos Stoyannidis from Armensko,>
The name is SIMOS STOYIANNI IOANNIDIS from Alona.
> in order to prepare, along
with the Greek Army Staff, the plans for the beginning of the Macedonian
Struggle. He returned in Macedonia along with some Greek Officers, including
Pavlos Melas , who testified the important influence of Capetan Kotas
between the Macedonian Greeks.>
>His Corps, including Euthymios Kaoudis, George Perakis, George
Dikaionymos-Makris, Dimitris Dalipis, Simos Ioannidis, Pavlos Kyrou, Stefos
Grigoriou, Lakis Ntailakis and other Captains, fought repeatedly the
Bulgarian Corpses up to May 1904.>
His Corp was not including all of the above, and not all of the above were
Captains, and they fought the Bulgars much longer than up to May 1904.
> His best friend was Captain Kostas Kaoudis
from Crete, they had sworn eternal friendship and common death. But the rest
of his co-fighters became furious with Captain Kotas because, as they
asserted, he did not undertake active action against the Bulgarians. His
ideas for cooperation of the two christian nationalities in Macedonia
against the Turks seperated him from his co-warriors who gradually deserted
him.>
The reasons for such a desertion were much more complicated than simply the
above statement.
>Up to the end of his life, Captain Kotas remained an idealist, purehearted
fighter, and has been sacrificed infamely because of his moderate positions
towards friends and enemies. The autoritary Metropolite of Kastoria,
Germanos Karavaggelis, having failed after many attempts to control him and
make him his blind organ, finally gave him up to the Turks who arrested him
and decapitated him in 1904. This is how he ...paid for all his struggles
for Greece.>
Again, Karavaggelis' role is not very clear. The Turks arrested him on June the
22nd 1904,however he was killed on September the 27th 1905 .
He was hunged and not decapitated.
Part of the Turkish charges against him were that he was a bandit against the
peasans refusing to become Patriarchists. The Turks brought a Bulgar Exarchist
priest to offer him the last rites,however the day before, as it was brought up
during a visit of his grand daughter in Konstantinoupolis, he already had
received the last rites of confession and communion by no one else but the
deacon of MEGAROVO and future Patriarch, ATHHNAGORAS.
ATHHNAGORAS never devulged what took place during the time he spend with Kottas
in Monastiri's prison the day before Kottas' death.
> The Hero Captain Kotas, whose birthplace village bears his name, is
considered today the most important figure in the preparation of the
Macedonian Struggle.>
Lets make sure who made the mistakes and why .
> Macedonia is Greece ANY way you look at it
MoltiadisS>
Regards to all ........L.
Vlachs, the Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula.
miltiadiss
Apart from some typing errors (Pampi instead of Rampi, Geles' instead of
Gele's), all the rest of the "inaccuracies" Lyngos mentioned is data I took
from the Book "History of Northern Hellenism - Macedonia" by the Professor
in the University of Thessaloniki Konstantionos Vakalopoulos, Thessaloniki
1996. [except the "decapitation" thing which was a point I personally
misunderstood]
Anyway, I accept George Tsapanos' comments and corrections even though I
beleive they are rather minor and in some cases just different scriptures of
the same name (for example Papatraikof would be Poptraikof in Bulgarian I
suppose).
Regards
MiltiadisS
George S. Tsapanos <lyn...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
20001002050215...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
John Alep
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
John Alep
!!!
Bravo Ilinden, you have a good measure to measure people !!
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Miltiadi: You don't even have the courage to call us by our real name. We
are
> Macedonian, not Slavomacedonian. Do you call the Spanish, Italians,
Romanians,
.............................................
> Ilinden the SlavoSkopjan
miltiadiss
"have studied" russian) , and I can get the meaning of some words and
phrases and assume the rest.
Regards
MiltiadisS
John Alep <ale...@vip.gr> a écrit dans le message :
8rao3b$9vl$2...@newssrv.otenet.gr...
> Probably he asked from a Bulgarian to translate Ilinden's post !!
> John Alep
> Macedonia, Greece
June R Harton
ilindra, your comic nature is waring very thin now.
We have patiently written easy to understand info for you.
Then in case you really couldn't read we even gave you pictures!
You are now on the verge of getting thrown out of class!
One last chance:
From:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GREECE/GREECE.HTM
Hellenism
In spite of the political turbulence and chaos of the fourth century BC,
Greece was poised on its most triumphant period: the Hellenistic age. The
word, Hellenistic, is derived from the word, Hellene, which was the Greek
word for the Greeks. The Hellenistic age was the "age of the Greeks; during
this time, Greek culture and power extended itself across the known world.
While the classical age of Greece produced great literature, poetry,
philosophy, drama, and art, the Hellenistic age "hellenized" the world. At
the root of Hellenism were the conquests of Philip of Macedon and his son,
Alexander. However, the Macedonians did more than control territory; they
actively exported Greek culture: politics, law, literature, philosophy,
religion, and art. This was a new idea, exporting culture, and more than
anything else this exporting of culture would deeply influence all the
civilizations and cultures that would later erupt from this soil: the
Romans, the Christians, the Jewish diaspora, and Islam.
Macedon
Macedon all during the age of the Greek city-states was an anomaly: it
was a Greek kingdom. Located north-east of the Greek mainland and northwest
of Asia Minor, Macedon was firmly entrenched on the European continent. The
Macedonians were the Greeks who had to contend, then, with all the European
tribes, many of which were war-like. So the Macedonians served as a kind of
buffer for the Greeks, as the faithful Greeks who stood between the tribal
Europeans and the Greek city-states. For all that, the Macedonians were
deeply unappreciated by their fellow Greeks; they were looked on as no
better than barbarians themselves, particularly since they had never
developed or adopted the polis.
The Macedonians were ruled by a king, much like the Mycenean kings. The
king came to power through inheritance, but first had to be approved by the
army. Beneath the king was an aristocracy of nobles who had a limited amount
of power; like all monarchies that shared power with an aristocracy, the
balance of power frequently shifted from the king to the nobles and back
again. Into this situation, at the peak of the political chaos roiling the
Greek world to the south, stepped a powerful king who unified the country of
Macedon and set his sights on conquering the whole of the Greek world:
Philip of Macedon.
World Cultures Home Page
©1996, Richard Hooker
Updated 9-25-96
For fair use only
June R Harton
Ilindra wrote
> Miltiadi: You don't even have the courage to call us by our real name.
Of course he does...AND the rest of the world:
BULGARIANS
June R Harton
ilindra wrote
> Miltiadi I thought you speak Slavorussian
Point is, ilindra Voulgariou, he understands some of your Bulgarian
language.
Ilinden
his parents speak only Turkish at home!
John Alep wrote:
> Probably he asked from a MACEDONIAN to translate Ilinden's post !!
> John Alepiloglu from Izmir Turkey
> MACEDONIA, FTCOG, ITALY, CHINA
>
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
"1912" <unitema...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8r99po$vr8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <vj4gtssfi196vj17o...@4ax.com>,
> adre...@home.com wrote:
>
>
> > If you care, check the following link
> > http://philippos.mpa.gr/other/Gounaris.html
>
> I stopped reading when I came across the below quoted sentence in the
> opening few paragraphs. It is the essense of David Irvineism (historic
> revisionism). The thesis deserves conmtempt for outright lying without
> shame and so do you.
>
> "In theory, no less than in practice, Athens, Belgrade, and, later on,
> Sofia were exclusively concerned with irredentism and completely
> disregarded the option to consolidate their states by supporting the
> sense of citizenship"
>
What are your particular concerns regarding this paragraph? In your view,
what is revisionist about it? Actually, it does not pertain at all to
Macedonia. If anything, it is highly critical of the above states, stating
that they travel to cover incompentence in governance by fostering the
causes of irredentism. Is it possible that you fully misunderstood it?
ADR
Ilinden
were ever related to the Greeks. At that time the Macedonians were
called barbarians, meaning aliens. Demosthenes also said:" that this man
Philip is not only not a Greek, nor a man who has anything to do with us
Greeks, but not even a barbarian from a country with an honourable name:
no, a pestilent Macedonian fellow from a country where one could never
buy a decent slave before."
So are we to believe Demosthenes who lived during this time or do we
believe today's Greeks who the are world's greatest falsifiers?
Ilinden
Ilinden
miltiadiss wrote:
> I do not speak macedonian or Ftcogian but I "speak" russian (rather
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
> In article <8r70ml$e0b$1...@wanadoo.fr>,
> "miltiadiss" <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > The Greek Macedonian Hero Capetan Kotas
>
> He wasnt Greekkk.
The critical question is "how do you know" (ran any genetic tests?) and
"what is a Greek" (any particular assembly of genes?) or "what makes a
Greek".
In modern times, Greece has had 3-4 prime ministers who were Vlachs, others
who were Albanian, many prominent fighters who can be described as Slavonic
in origin and so on....I have not as yet read a particular definition for a
Greek. But maybe you can illuminate us.
ADR
Radeff
>John Alep
>Macedonia, Greece
>
Right! Tinkerbell will be over to visit you, too.
HRA
1912
1912
I think I have stated the classic definition of what it is to a Greekkk
(and by it what it means to be a member of other ethnicites) in the
thread TO ANASTASIA, ER, I MEAN ANSATASSIOS. I think it is in that
thread. I am not going to write it out again for your benefit. I will
do so when I feel like it.
John Alep
I 'm wondering if I should to !!
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
John Alep
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Miltiadi I thought you speak Slavorussian
> Ilinden the SlavoSkopjan
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
"> I think I have stated the classic definition of what it is to a Greekkk
> (and by it what it means to be a member of other ethnicites) in the
> thread TO ANASTASIA, ER, I MEAN ANSATASSIOS. I think it is in that
> thread. I am not going to write it out again for your benefit. I will
> do so when I feel like it.
>
I like your modesty. You have written the "classic" definition of a
Greek!!! Wow! I think that we need to post this on every relevant board
and get it in Encyclopedia Britannica. You must be kidding, of course. You
may have written what you believe to be a "definition", something that may
conveniently "support" whatever lame arguments you make but this hardly
makes it the "classic" definition or a definition at all. You cannot
determine other persons' ethnic beliefs! If a person in Macedonia choose to
be a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Greek, this is up to them and you are in very
poor position to critisize what was and remains a very personal decision.
ADR
June R Harton
"Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D." wrote
>you are in very poor position to critisize what was and remains
> a very personal decision.
That psychotic, "1912", is in NO position to critisize _anything_.
Ilinden
John Alepologlu the pure Ftcogian wrote:
> The fact is that he not speaks Ftcogianathenian
> John Alepiliglu
> Macedonia, FTCOG
>
David Huntington
miltiadiss <milti...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8r80vr$dif$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> Ilinden, Capetan Kotas was a grown-up man himself and was able to decide
> wether he was Greek or Grkoman or what. He was a Greek with a big "G".
THATS THE POINT. ALL YOU SYNTHETIC GAYREEKS ARE GAYREEKS WITH A BIG "G".
The
> Greek state renamed his birth village to Kotas ( before it was Roulia) to
> honour him. He called himself Kotas or Kostas Christou and not "Kote". And
> his language at birth may have been the Slavomacedonian, but the language
of
> his HEART was always the GREEK language, because...
>
> ...Macedonia is Greece ANY way you look at it!
REALLY NOW, WHEN A GOOD NUMBER OF THE MEMBERS OF YOUR MIDWESTERN PARISHES
ARE MACEDONIANS BY LINEAGE (COLUMBUS, CINCINNATI, FT. WAYNE). WHEN THE
MAJORITY OF ATHENS WAS ALBANIANS IN THE LAST CENTURY AND MOST OF THEM WERE
ASSIMILATED INTO THE GAYREEK POPULATION, THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE QUESTION:
IS THERE ANYTHING SUCH AS A GAYREEK? OR ARE YOU ALL JUST A BUNCH OF PHONY
RAGHEADS PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT.
NOW GO BACK TO YOUR GARAGE, I THINK YOU NEED TO GO KICK YOUR MOTHER AGAIN.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
Radeff
>John Alep
>Macedonia, Greece
Ahem -He not speaks anything right now if you are referring to Kote/Cottas.
HRA
Radeff
Anastassios wrote:
>If a person in Macedonia choose to
>be a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Greek, this is up to them and you are in very
>poor position to critisize what was and remains a very personal
Wow, Anastassios, finally you have written something of import here which you
fained to do in the past. In fact, I do remember you hounding the h.ll out of
me for saying the same thing on many occasions.
HRA
Radeff
>I 'm wondering if I should to !!
>John Alep
>Macedonia, Greece
>
That's right. You do not understand.
Among you are some of those whose ancestry is the same as those you constantly
degrade, humiliate and insult.
Open up thine eyes.
HRA
miltiadiss
...a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Greek,...
And EVEN IF there was place for a NEW ethnicity, there would be no problem
(at least for us Greeks), if this "ethnicity" didn't steal an ancient Greek
name (Macedonia-Macedonian) to describe itself.
MiltiadisS
Radeff <rad...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
20001004113322...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
"Radeff" <rad...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001004113322...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> [del]
> Anastassios wrote:
>
> >If a person in Macedonia choose to
> >be a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Greek, this is up to them and you are in very
> >poor position to critisize what was and remains a very personal
>
> Wow, Anastassios, finally you have written something of import here which
you
> fained to do in the past. In fact, I do remember you hounding the h.ll out
of
> me for saying the same thing on many occasions.
>
You are imagining things again or you are confusing me with somebody else.
You can be a Martian for all I care. I really do not care about the actions
of specific individuals. I would like this forum to concentrate in what was
or is a "mass action" and the assumption of the name "Macedonia" by FYROM is
not a "personal" decision. I think that you continue to mistake my
intensions regarding these issues.
Anastassios
Radeff
>
>...a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Greek,...
>
Yes, but I know what he meant.
>And EVEN IF there was place for a NEW ethnicity, there would be no problem
>(at least for us Greeks), if this "ethnicity" didn't steal an ancient Greek
>name (Macedonia-Macedonian) to describe itself.
le le Ther's nothing new about us Macedonians.
Aren si?
HRA
Radeff
No, Anastassios, I do not mistake your intentions. Sometimes I even agree with
them. Its been a long time here for us and some good has come of it.
That was all I was conveying to you.
The rest will take care of itself one way or another and we won't be asked
about it.
As for you -well, I believe you are a Martian, a Saturnian or possibly even a
Plutonian. Anyway -pick your space odyssey.
HRA
HRA
June R Harton
Rads quit your lies.
Rads wrote
> le le Ther's nothing new about us Macedonians.
> Aren si?
There are no Macedonians besides Greeks....ALL else is an
artificial construction.... first by the Bulgarians in the 19th century
and then by the Titoists in the 20th century. Stop lying to innocent
people who read here.
It is time for you fyrom'ers to stop lying to yourselves:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
June R Harton
LAJNA BRAIN <davidhu...@anglo.com> wrote
> REALLY NOW, WHEN A GOOD NUMBER OF THE MEMBERS OF YOUR MIDWESTERN PARISHES
> ARE MACEDONIANS BY LINEAGE (COLUMBUS, CINCINNATI, FT. WAYNE).
Lajna brain, Macedonians are Greek, always were and always will be.
You, and your people, are Bulgarians, always were and always will be.
Learn to love it, because that is your destiny.
June R Harton
Rads wrote
B/S. Skopjeans are NOT anything to do with Macedonians.
Macedonians are Greek. If there are those among you who really
are Greek, stand forth!
Ilinden
Hellenes!
Dirty Harry
June R Harton <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8rjabe$6trs$3...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> LAJNA BRAIN <davidhu...@anglo.com> wrote
AND AGAIN YOU PROVE YOU ARE A GRKOMAN WHORE.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
June R Harton
> June R Harton wrote
> > LAJNA BRAIN <davidhu...@anglo.com> wrote
> AND AGAIN YOU PROVE YOU ARE A GRKOMAN WHORE.
hahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahaha
You are very amusing. Only one person here gets things more wrong
than you....and that is Gail.....fine company you keep!
Pedro Sanchez
¿What assumption are you refering to? The country which you
call "FYROM" adopted its name of Macedonia Republic of because that was
the name of the region for years. The poeple living in there called the
country Macedonia for generation. You are trying to say Macedonia woke
up one day and said let call our country Macedonia. This is not true.
Viva Macedonia!
June R Harton
"Pedro Sanchez" wrote
> The country which you
> call "FYROM" adopted its name of Macedonia Republic of because that was
> the name of the region for years. The poeple living in there called the
> country Macedonia for generation.
You are a liar. In Turkish times it was vilayets and nothing Macedonia.
In Yugo times prior to Tito it was Macedonia nothing!
It was not Macedonia till Tito made it that.
>You are trying to say Macedonia woke
> up one day and said let call our country Macedonia. This is not true.
Who do you think you are trying to kid?
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
Anastassios D. Retzios
>?hat assumption are you refering to? The country which you
>call "FYROM" adopted its name of Macedonia Republic of because that was
>the name of the region for years. The poeple living in there called the
>country Macedonia for generation. You are trying to say Macedonia woke
>up one day and said let call our country Macedonia. This is not true.
>
>Viva Macedonia!
The name of the region is Macedonia indeed the larger portion of this
region including the vast majority of the ancient and medieval sites
are within the Greek territory. Furthermore, Macedonians have been a
heterogeneous lot consisting of Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians,
non-Bulgarian Slavs (by their own decision), Romas, Turks, Jews and
others. For a specific group to decide to christen itself "Republic
of Macedonia" is an insult to the rest of the Macedonians. I will not
be the one to argue that the any reference to Macedonia should be
deleted from the name of FYROM. However, this state should
differentiate itself vis-a-vis the rest of the Macedonia that it does
not represent and which it will never represent. This would be the
honest thing to do. Refusal to do so, will clearly indicate that this
state does have indeed the desirve and the wish to "represent" and
incorporate the totality of Macedonia (however weird it may appear at
this stage with the correlation of power). If the current
negotiations reach indeed this point, then it would be clear that
FYROM has clearl expansionist visions and it is ready to proceed on an
antagonist agenda. I would be sad, if this comes about. On the other
hand, I think that reason will prevail and that those responsible will
realize that antagonizing other Macedonians is not the way to move
forward. A compromise under which FYROM will obtain the name
"Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
confrontation.
ADR
June R Harton
"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote
> A compromise under which FYROM will obtain the name
> "Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
> allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
> confrontation.
Truthfully that would have to be Republic of Nova Northern Roman Macedonia,
or Republic of Vardar Roman Macedonia because Skopje has nothing
to do with the real ancient Macedonia! Fyrom is real Macedonia nothing!
Radeff
Anastassios,
Are you saying that the only problem you have is the name, Republic of
Macedonia and not the word, Macedonia?
Do you want Republic of Macedonia for the name in Greece?
Kind of odd to have a republic within a country, isn't it?
HRA
Nova does not fit, btw. Its not new. The other would not encompass all of it.
Anastassios D. Retzios
>Anastassios,
>
>Are you saying that the only problem you have is the name, Republic of
>Macedonia and not the word, Macedonia?
Absolutely. The assumption drawn by the name is that there is only
one Macedonia and it is represented by FYROM. This is not true.
>Do you want Republic of Macedonia for the name in Greece?
>Kind of odd to have a republic within a country, isn't it?
No, I do not want the term "Republic of Macedonia" for the province
within Greece. Greek Macedonia is just fine and lets leave it at
this.
"Nova Macedonia" is actually accurate. The present FYROM occupies
only a small portion of classical Macedonia. The northern areas of
FYROM have never been part of any political entity with the name
Macedonia (ever) and its own capital, Skopje, is in that
never-Macedonian region. Since we have here "Macedonia re-imagined",
the name Nova Macedonia is not bad.
As for "Vardar Macedonia" it is a good name since the area has been
described after the river Vardar for a long time now.
I hope that some other similar solutions will emerge and finally one
of them will be acceptable.
ADR
Your friend
"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote:
>
> A compromise under which FYROM
no such place
will obtain the name
> "Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
> allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
> confrontation.
No, it would actually suggest that the horrifying sanctions under which
Greece put Macedonia over its name and flag, the deals made with
Milosevic, and all the propaganda pitched in the past ten years was
actually valid and honorable.
It wasn't. Hope Republic of Macedonia can remain Macedonia, "Republic
of" part of the name being enough distinction to serve the purppose of
nothifying people there might be more Macedonia out there somewhere but
that the Republic is enough.
>
> ADR
June R Harton
Gail wrote
> No, it would actually suggest that the horrifying sanctions under which
> Greece put Macedonia
FYROM!
>over its name and flag, the deals made with
> Milosevic, and all the propaganda pitched in the past ten years was
> actually valid and honorable.
Filth, shut your Whore to History and Truth, mouth, you commie-minded
netnazi!
> It wasn't. Hope Republic of Macedonia can remain Macedonia,
FYROM will NEVER be what it isn't FILTH....and it is the likes
of you that have determined that for sure, FOOL!
> "Republic
> of" part of the name being enough distinction to serve the purppose of
> nothifying people there might be more Macedonia out there somewhere
> but that the Republic is enough.
FYROM is Macedonia NOTHING....ask your pal Slavko:
http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G01/A01/as0106.htm
:)
Anastassios D. Retzios
wrote:
>
>
>"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote:
>>
>> A compromise under which FYROM
>
>no such place
>
>will obtain the name
>> "Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
>> allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
>> confrontation.
>
>No, it would actually suggest that the horrifying sanctions under which
>Greece put Macedonia over its name and flag, the deals made with
>Milosevic, and all the propaganda pitched in the past ten years was
>actually valid and honorable.
You are inconprehensible here. What horrifying sactions? The so
called embargo had little effect on FYROM which cleverly used to
obtain sympathy. Actual damages have been minimal. And let's not
forget that since then, Greece has invested heavily in FYROM, more so
than any other state.
What deals with Milosevic are you talking about? The then Greek FM
Samaras would not have any of it and made such entreaties public. As
for the flag, it was such an stupid act that the FYROM goverment
backed down immediately
>It wasn't. Hope Republic of Macedonia can remain Macedonia, "Republic
>of" part of the name being enough distinction to serve the purppose of
>nothifying people there might be more Macedonia out there somewhere but
>that the Republic is enough.
How are we going to notify people that there is "more Macedonia" out
there? Are you going take ads in the paper? Do you make any sense?
If FYROM does not compromise on this, -and an honorable compromise is
all that is wanted-, then it stands to lose far more than it will gain
and it won't have Greece to blame for this time around.
ADR
Radeff
Aha -Anastassios, would it have been the same if say there had been no
Metaxas?
To say no would be to not face the truth.
<< I will not
>be the one to argue that the any reference to Macedonia should be
>deleted from the name of FYROM. However, this state should
>differentiate itself vis-a-vis the rest of the Macedonia that it does
>not represent and which it will never represent. This would be the
>honest thing to do. Refusal to do so, will clearly indicate that this
>state does have indeed the desirve and the wish to "represent" and
>incorporate the totality of Macedonia (however weird it may appear at
>this stage with the correlation of power). >>
What would be the problem in the reverse?
I am reminded of the many years of sielnce from the south.
<< If the current
>negotiations reach indeed this point, then it would be clear that
>FYROM has clearl expansionist visions and it is ready to proceed on an
>antagonist agenda. I would be sad, if this comes about.>>
You had better think back into history over who clearly displayed expansionist
visions and still harbors them. Hint: here as allies to you.
<< On the other
>hand, I think that reason will prevail and that those responsible will
>realize that antagonizing other Macedonians is not the way to move
>forward.>>
I think that was already proven a while back. I refer to the flag as an
example.
<< A compromise under which FYROM will obtain the name
>"Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
>allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
>confrontation.
>
>ADR>>
Well, Anastassios, you and I will not be asked for any input into the issue
[i.e. unless you have the high power to wield it]
Whatever happens, we, Macedonians, are not afraid of acceptance even if we
bemoan it. Lessons have taught us to move on.
HRA
Radeff
>>>>call "FYROM" adopted its name of Macedonia Republic of because that was
>>>>the name of the region for years. The poeple living in there called the
>>>>country Macedonia for generation. You are trying to say Macedonia woke
>>>>up one day and said let call our country Macedonia. This is not true.
>>>>
>>>>Viva Macedonia!
>>>
>>>The name of the region is Macedonia indeed the larger portion of this
>>>region including the vast majority of the ancient and medieval sites
>>>are within the Greek territory. Furthermore, Macedonians have been a
>>>heterogeneous lot consisting of Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians,
>>>non-Bulgarian Slavs (by their own decision), Romas, Turks, Jews and
>>>others. For a specific group to decide to christen itself "Republic
>>>be the one to argue that the any reference to Macedonia should be
>>>deleted from the name of FYROM. However, this state should
>>>differentiate itself vis-a-vis the rest of the Macedonia that it does
>>>not represent and which it will never represent. This would be the
>>>honest thing to do. Refusal to do so, will clearly indicate that this
>>>state does have indeed the desirve and the wish to "represent" and
>>>incorporate the totality of Macedonia (however weird it may appear at
>>>negotiations reach indeed this point, then it would be clear that
>>>FYROM has clearl expansionist visions and it is ready to proceed on an
>>>hand, I think that reason will prevail and that those responsible will
>>>realize that antagonizing other Macedonians is not the way to move
>>>"Republic of Nova Macedonia" or "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" will
>>>allow us to move forward to a new era of cooperation rather than
>>>confrontation.
>>>
>>>ADR
>>
>>
>>Are you saying that the only problem you have is the name, Republic of
>>Macedonia and not the word, Macedonia?
>>>
>Absolutely. The assumption drawn by the name is that there is only
>one Macedonia and it is represented by FYROM. This is not true.
>>>
I think you have no fear after all these years of the issue to believe people
are unaware of the 2 Macedonias.
>>Do you want Republic of Macedonia for the name in Greece?
>>Kind of odd to have a republic within a country, isn't it?
>>>
<<>No, I do not want the term "Republic of Macedonia" for the province
>within Greece. Greek Macedonia is just fine and lets leave it at
>this.
>>>
Anastassios, that's how it was forever.
So we are back to square one.
<,>"Nova Macedonia" is actually accurate. The present FYROM occupies
>only a small portion of classical Macedonia. The northern areas of
>FYROM have never been part of any political entity with the name
>Macedonia (ever) and its own capital, Skopje, is in that
>never-Macedonian region. Since we have here "Macedonia re-imagined",
>the name Nova Macedonia is not bad.
>>>
No, Anastassios, we from what you call above "a small portion of classical
Macedonia" will not be treated without reason again. We are not new.
>As for "Vardar Macedonia" it is a good name since the area has been
>described after the river Vardar for a long time now.
>>.
That's a term I do not accept unless you want to accept one of the same weight
for you.
>I hope that some other similar solutions will emerge and finally one
>of them will be acceptable.
>
>ADR
>>>
Its not up to us.
HRA
June R Harton
Rads wrote
> Whatever happens, we, Macedonians,
So, you now admit to being Greek!
>are not afraid of acceptance even if we
>bemoan it. Lessons have taught us to move on.
As far as Skopjeans they were never Macedonians and no sleight
of hand will make them that.
June R Harton
Rads wrote
Anastassios wrote
> <"Nova Macedonia" is actually accurate. The present FYROM occupies
> >only a small portion of classical Macedonia. The northern areas of
> >FYROM have never been part of any political entity with the name
> >Macedonia (ever) and its own capital, Skopje, is in that
> >never-Macedonian region. Since we have here "Macedonia re-imagined",
> >the name Nova Macedonia is not bad.
> No, Anastassios, we from what you call above "a small portion of classical
> Macedonia" will not be treated without reason again. We are not new.
Of course, the Slavs encountered the Greeks in the northern Greece
area at the end of the 6th century A.D.
> >As for "Vardar Macedonia" it is a good name since the area has been
> >described after the river Vardar for a long time now.
> That's a term I do not accept unless you want to accept one of the same
> weight for you.
Fyrom was never Macedonia nor Macedonians, PERIOD.
> >>Nova does not fit, btw. Its not new. The other would not encompass all
of
> >it.
You of course mean the old Dardanian portion and the old Paeonian
portion, say 90% of FYROM!
Ilinden
"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote: The FTCOG AND THE FTCOGIANS
Tashko Rechkov! The Grkoman
June R Harton
ilindra wrote:
>Tashko, when the scientists can stop earthquakes from happening,then and
> only then can Macedonia become Greek (Ftcogian) So we know this will
> never happen! So if you like it or not,one day Macedonia will be united.
Pay mind to ilindra, folks. Ilindra fell out the family tree.
Voyager
she's the person who supported a Turk fasist who
wrote that Turkey will be an empire from Italy to China
INCLUDING FYROM.
Anastassios D. Retzios
wrote:
>
>
>"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote: The FTCOG AND THE FTCOGIANS
>Tashko Rechkov! The Grkoman
Well, Ilinden, we cannot obviously trust your quotes. Do you have
anything of substance to say?
ADR
Ilinden
only then can Macedonia become Greek (Ftcogian) So we know this will
never happen! So if you like it or not,one day Macedonia will be united.
Ilinden
Ilinden
Voyager , Viva the Ftcogians from the Former Turkish colony of Greece
(FTCOG)
Ilinden
Voyager
Voyager
Friend
Voyager wrote:
>
> iliden is Galina under one more fals name and
> she's the person who supported a Turk fasist
perseverative behaviors, personality disorder
June R Harton
Gail: perseverative behaviors, personality disorder.
Gail's own words:
I haven't trace my whole family but
my grandmother was English & English gypsy,
my grandfather unknown parentage from father & Cherokee.
Other side, grandfather English & 1/4 Dutch (maybe only 1/8 Dutch)
grandmother English with some people who are mixed
from Appalachians (some people think they were Turks,
mixed w/ slaves, or Indians-there is a website on th
em).........................................."
Radeff
>Anastassios wrote
>> <"Nova Macedonia" is actually accurate. The present FYROM occupies
>> >only a small portion of classical Macedonia. The northern areas of
>> >FYROM have never been part of any political entity with the name
>> >Macedonia (ever) and its own capital, Skopje, is in that
>> >never-Macedonian region. Since we have here "Macedonia re-imagined",
>> >the name Nova Macedonia is not bad.
>
>> No, Anastassios, we from what you call above "a small portion of classical
>> Macedonia" will not be treated without reason again. We are not new.
>>>
>Of course, the Slavs encountered the Greeks in the northern Greece
>area at the end of the 6th century A.D.
>>>
I think it was the other way around.
>
>> >As for "Vardar Macedonia" it is a good name since the area has been
>> >described after the river Vardar for a long time now.
>
>> That's a term I do not accept unless you want to accept one of the same
>> weight for you.
>>>
>Fyrom was never Macedonia nor Macedonians, PERIOD.
>>>
Ready to relinquish Monastir/Bitola?
>> >>Nova does not fit, btw. Its not new. The other would not encompass all
>of
>> >it.
>>>
<<>You of course mean the old Dardanian portion and the old Paeonian
>portion, say 90% of FYROM!
>>>
Livy said ............
I'll find that book once again, NFGB.
HRA
Anastassios D. Retzios
wrote:
This was the substantive thing you had to say? You cannot still deal
with the fact that I, a Macedonian with long family history in
Macedonia, am a Greek (or that my family described itself as Greek
well before the 20th century). When you come to your senses and
accept the fact that the term "Macedonian" describes a multiethnic
population that is not exclusively "Slav" speaking, you may have come
to your senses and started dealing with reality instead of with
fantasy.
I accept that your own experiences in NW Macedonia were important but
NW Macedonia is only a small part of Macedonia. Your experiences in
this area do not necessarily translate to experiences in the whole
province and especially in the most urban areas of the province.
ADR
Galina Schneider
"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:03:12 GMT, Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> This was the substantive thing you had to say? You cannot still deal
> with the fact that I, a Macedonian with long family history in
> Macedonia, am a Greek (or that my family described itself as Greek
> well before the 20th century). When you come to your senses and
> accept the fact that the term "Macedonian" describes a multiethnic
> population that is not exclusively "Slav" speaking, you may have come
> to your senses and started dealing with reality instead of with
> fantasy.
>
> I accept that your own experiences in NW Macedonia were important but
> NW Macedonia is only a small part of Macedonia. Your experiences in
> this area do not necessarily translate to experiences in the whole
> province and especially in the most urban areas of the province.
>
> ADR
Dear Anastasios,
There are photographs of Greek schools in Macedonia, their teachers and
students. THat you could be greek is not a problem. That your mom is
Greek, since she speaks dopyi, is questionable. That you might be part
Macedonian is possible.God bless both heritages.
Anastassios D. Retzios
<oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:03:12 GMT, Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This was the substantive thing you had to say? You cannot still deal
>> with the fact that I, a Macedonian with long family history in
>> Macedonia, am a Greek (or that my family described itself as Greek
>> well before the 20th century). When you come to your senses and
>> accept the fact that the term "Macedonian" describes a multiethnic
>> population that is not exclusively "Slav" speaking, you may have come
>> to your senses and started dealing with reality instead of with
>> fantasy.
>>
>> I accept that your own experiences in NW Macedonia were important but
>> NW Macedonia is only a small part of Macedonia. Your experiences in
>> this area do not necessarily translate to experiences in the whole
>> province and especially in the most urban areas of the province.
>>
>> ADR
>
>Dear Anastasios,
>
>There are photographs of Greek schools in Macedonia, their teachers and
>students. THat you could be greek is not a problem. That your mom is
>Greek, since she speaks dopyi, is questionable. That you might be part
>Macedonian is possible.God bless both heritages.
It does not matter how many years we exchange messages in this forum,
either you never get it or you pretend that you never get it. I am
still scratching my head to try to find out what makes you a
"Macedonian" and me a "part Macedonian". You must be kidding, of
course.
We are not going to get any close to any solution of this problem if
slavophone Macedonians continue to insist that they are "the
Macedonians". This is pure and unadulterated garbage which
unfortunately drives the current conflict. And yes, I do not support
the extreme right wing Greek position that only the Greeks are
"Macedonians" for equal measure.
My mother is and remains monolingual and she never spoke "dopyi". You
are mistaking her for my grandmother, who, independent of the fact
that she was bilingual always regarded herself as Greek and who would
have been insulted by your insinuations.
The present "ROM" is not the "Republic of Macedonia". Maybe for the
time being its leaders are indulging in a "follie de grandeur" but
their position has been rejected by the majority of Macedonians who,
as it happens, live outside the confines of this state which does not
and never represented them despite its delutional statements. I hope,
for the sake of everyone, that we all come to our senses soon as stop
these "maximal" positions and other stupidities.
ADR
June R Harton
The filthy whore to history and truth wrote
> That your mom is Greek, since she speaks dopyi, is questionable.
> That you might be part Macedonian is possible.God bless both
> heritages.
You filthy heretic, God will punish you for your continued lies.
Macedonian is Greek, Fyromians are West Bulgarian and you are
related to the Balkans only in two possible ways, Gypsy or Turk
which means essentially that you have no business in this
discussion, you are also educationally deprived, you waste of
God given skin!
Gail's own words:
"I left home as a teenager like I said.
................
I haven't trace my whole family but
my grandmother was English & English gypsy,
my grandfather unknown parentage from father & Cherokee.
Other side, grandfather English & 1/4 Dutch
(maybe only 1/8 Dutch)
grandmother English with some people who are mixed
from Appalachians (some people think they were Turks,
mixed w/ slaves, or Indians-there is a website on
them).........................................."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
..........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Ilinden
June R Harton wrote We the Ftcogians we are nitwits, because we came
from the uncivilized country of the FTCOG!:
Galina Schneider
"Anastassios D. Retzios" wrote:
>
> O
> >
> >Dear Anastasios,
> >
> >There are photographs of Greek schools in Macedonia, their teachers and
> >students. THat you could be greek is not a problem. That your mom is
> >Greek, since she speaks dopyi, is questionable. That you might be part
> >Macedonian is possible.God bless both heritages.
>
> It does not matter how many years we exchange messages in this forum,
> either you never get it or you pretend that you never get it. I am
> still scratching my head to try to find out what makes you a
> "Macedonian" and me a "part Macedonian".
You are part Macedonian and part Greek person, and American. I am 100%
American. In my case, making no other claims, poteklo ne e vazhno.
You must be kidding, of
> course.
Why? We majority agree on some basic points.
>
> We are not going to get any close to any solution of this problem if
> slavophone Macedonians continue to insist that they are "the
> Macedonians".
Perhaps you are operating form the wrong questions. Most Macedonians I
know claim to be Macedonians, do NOT claim that others might not be
Macedonians, but refuse, rightfully, to accept the atittude that they
might not be Macedonians. Hopefullly , you see the difference.
This is pure and unadulterated garbage which unfortunately drives the
current conflict. And yes, I do not support
> the extreme right wing Greek position that only the Greeks are
> "Macedonians" for equal measure.
There are Greeks who live in Macedonia coming from places like, say ,
former Russia. They don't normally call themselves Macedonians, except
geographically. Same thing with Albanians in Macedonia. They call
themselves Macedonians only by citizenship, just as the Albanians in the
Macedonian prefecture call themselves Macedonian according to
citizenship (those who actually have Greek citizenship in the Macedonian
prefeture in Greece). There is no reason why the term Macedonian cannot
be used variously, geographically or in terms of citizenship or for the
people who consider themselves a part of the heritage. For example, I
ran into a Croatian the other day who I introduced to another person as
a Slovenian. She replied "I am American" which did not negate her being
Serbian culturally originally from Slovenia. I congratulated her as the
last time we spoke she had not achieved that citizenship status.
Similarly I met an interesting couple in Macedonia from Slovenia who had
Slovenian citizenship - she is a Vlach Macedonian and he is an Italian.
She and he both consider themselves Slovenian as to citizenship,
Macedonian and Italian as to birth and Vlach and Italian as to
derivation, just as you probably consider yourslef Greek by derrivation
and American by citizenship.
>
> My mother is and remains monolingual and she never spoke "dopyi". You
> are mistaking her for my grandmother, who, independent of the fact
> that she was bilingual always regarded herself as Greek and who would
> have been insulted by your insinuations.
SOrry I confused your mother and grandmother. As to your granmother
being insulted by the idea of being a Makedonka, that is unfortunate and
maybe speaks to the divisive politics of her time. If she regarded
herself as a Greek, that was her choice, and should be respected in
terms of her choice of how she placed herself in society. However, that
would not negate you being one quarter Macedonian and htere is no reason
you shouldn't celebrate all your heritages.
>
> The present "ROM" is not the "Republic of Macedonia".
Indeed it is.
Maybe for the
> time being its leaders are indulging in a "follie de grandeur"
It is not grandeur but rather the majority will of the people that
counts. THe former inhabitants of the socialist republic of Macedonia
are proud to consider themselves Macedonians living int he Republic of
Macedonia. It is only their attitude that counts.
but
> their position has been rejected by the majority of Macedonians
Here I think you are confusing geography with people.
who,
> as it happens, live outside the confines of this state which does not
> and never represented them
If you are referring to Macedonians in Bulgaria, they usually have no
problem calling themselves Macedonians. Similarly the GOrani of Kosovo,
they too have no problem calling themselves Macedonians. The villagers
both over the Albanian border near Debar and those in the Prespa areas
in Albania similarly have no problem being called Macedonians. Those
Macedonians still existing in the prefecture in Greece sometimes do and
sometimes don't, depending on who they are talking to and whether it
will affect their careers, their children, their relatives and their
future. If there was no adverse affect, then perhaps they would also
have no problems considering themselves Macedonians in Greek Macedonia
just like their Pirin and Vardar and Prespa, etc. brothers and sisters.
despite its delutional statements. I hope,
> for the sake of everyone, that we all come to our senses soon as stop
> these "maximal" positions and other stupidities.
There is nothing "maximal" about Macedonians being able to freely and
without social, economic or political reprisals being able to call
themselves Macedonians. That is a MINIMAL standard.
Galina
>
> ADR
June R Harton
The SICKO Gail wrote
> You are part Macedonian
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
> and part Greek person, and American. I am 100%
> American. In my case, making no other claims, poteklo ne e vazhno.
Filthy liar:
Gail's own words:
"I haven't trace my whole family but
my grandmother was English & English gypsy,
my grandfather unknown parentage from father & Cherokee.
Other side, grandfather English & 1/4 Dutch (maybe only 1/8 Dutch)
grandmother English with some people who are mixed
from Appalachians (some people think they were Turks,
mixed w/ slaves, or Indians-there is a website on
them).........................................."
> Perhaps you are operating form the wrong questions.
> Most Macedonians
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
>I know claim to be Macedonians,
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
> do NOT claim that others might not be Macedonians,
Filthy lying lajna.
> but refuse, rightfully, to accept the atittude that they might
> not be Macedonians.
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
> Hopefullly , you see the difference.
Oh yes, Filth, we know the difference.
> There is no reason why the term Macedonian cannot
> be used variously, geographically or in terms of citizenship or for the
> people who consider themselves a part of the heritage.
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians,
filthy whore to history and truth.
> Similarly I met an interesting couple in Macedonia
Fyrom, FILTH.
> She and he both consider themselves Slovenian as to citizenship,
> Macedonian
FYROM, FILTHY heretic.
> SOrry
Oh shut your commie-minded lying mouth, you lying piece
of lajna!
> I confused your mother and grandmother. As to your granmother
> being insulted by the idea of being a Makedonka,
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
> that is unfortunate
> and maybe speaks to the divisive politics of her time. If she regarded
> herself as a Greek, that was her choice, and should be respected in
> terms of her choice of how she placed herself in society. However,
> that would not negate you being one quarter Macedonian
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
> > The present "ROM" is not the "Republic of Macedonia".
> Indeed it is.
Indeed it is NOT you filthy whore to history and truth.
> It is not grandeur but rather the majority will of the people that
> counts. THe former inhabitants of the socialist republic of Macedonia
> are proud to consider themselves Macedonians
Meaning those that are West Bulgarian or Bulgarian Macedonians
NOTHING Macedonian, you filthy waste of God given skin.
> living int he Republic of Macedonia.
FYROM
> It is only their attitude that counts.
Wrong again FILTH:
Official Charter for all groups bearing the exclusive name MACEDONIA as
adopted by their members.
Charter Revision 4.02
So that the newsgroups "alt.culture.macedonia", "alt.news.macedonia",
and "alt.culture.macedonia.moderated" which were created without
support from soc.culture.greek or appropriate discussion in alt.config,
cannot be used for anti-Greek propaganda purposes their members have
declared that they should be deleted from news server active files by
all ISP's.
Until this deletion occurs the members of the groups named above
including soc.culture.greek the parent group of all Greek newsgroups
have voted for the following charter to be enforced.
All newsgroups bearing the exclusive name MACEDONIA are considered as
forums for the discussion of matters relating to the province of
Macedonia in Northern Greece. This should not be confused with the
internationally isolated "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
(FYROM) which in 1991 unilaterally declared independence and illegally
usurped the historically Greek name of Macedonia that until then had
only ever been used to refer to territory in the north of Greece which
for 4000 years has been inhabited by Hellenes (Greeks) who can trace
their ancestry back to Alexander the Great. There are no other people
in the Balkans who are ethnically or racially Macedonians except these
Greeks.
The more than 2,000,000 Greeks who live in Macedonia (outnumbering the
Slav inhabitants of FYROM) and the 18 Million Greeks world-wide
consider it as OFFENSIVE and INSULTING to themselves, their ancestors
and kinsmen, and to their Hellenic heritage and inheritance for anyone
but Macedonian Greeks to call themselves Macedonian and the region they
inhabit Macedonia.
The international community including the United Nations and the
European Union supported by very Eminent Historians only recognises the
"Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" by the acronym "FYROM" and NO
OTHER NAME. They believe that FYROM should adopt a name that does not
include the term "Macedonia" or any of its derivatives and that FYROM
must desist from using Greek symbols on its flag and stop teaching
children in its schools the mythos of General Tito which falsely claims
that the FYROMians are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians when
in-reality they are ethnic Bulgarian speaking Slavs that came into the
Balkans in the 6th Century AD (~1000 years after Alexander). For this
reason there is NO short form for FYROM's name except the acronym FYROM.
Additionally no member of the international community nor any
international organisation recognises the FYROMian nationality by the
term "Macedonian", not even the European Court of Human Rights.
FYROM has partially accepted the un-tenability of these false claims by
agreeing to use the acronym "FYROM" as its name and the term "Citizen
of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to describe its national
inhabitants in all international fora. "FYROM" is the official name
also used by the CIA and all Government bodies world wide to refer to
this entity.
Please use to the correct name for the "Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia" which is FYROM whenever you refer to this entity so as not
to cause unwarranted offence or confusion.
The newsgroups for discussion of matters relating to FYROM are
alt.news.fyrom and alt.culture.fyrom. Please post there if you are from
FYROM
It must be emphasised that information supplied by FYROMian
organisations and representatives in this or other news groups, on the
Internet or directly to you and to media organisations, relating to
their unfounded claims is nothing but propaganda and revisionism that
both Scholars and professional Historians acknowledge as being
unfounded lies of Orwellian proportion designed for internal
consumption and international propaganda purposes.
The official languages of all newsgroups bearing the name "Macedonia"
are English and Greek.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The decision of the EU summit meeting in Lisbon 1992
--------------------------------------------------------------
"The European Council reiterates the position taken by the Community
and its members in Guimaraes on the request of the former Yugoslav
Republic of Macedonia to be recognized as an independent State. If
expresses its readiness to recognize that republic within its existing
borders according to their Declaration on 16 December 1991 under a name
which does not include the term Macedonia. It furthermore considers the
borders of this republic as inviolable and guaranteed in accordance
with the principles of the UN Charter and the Charter of Paris".
--------------------------------------------------------------
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in
the sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient
Macedonians." (President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign
Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p.
35. )
--------------------------------------------------------------
The United Nations strongly disapproves of the use of the name
"Macedonia" by the FYROM and demands that FYROM find an acceptable name
which does not use the name "Macedonia", which belongs to Greece, or
any of its derivatives.
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia -- (8 Apr. 1993)
--The General Assembly decided on 8 April 1993 to admit to United
Nations membership the State being provisionally referred to for all
purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over
its name."
http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html
--------------------------------------------------------------
Any actions designed to propagate the use of the name "Macedonia" by
the FYROM are considered by the UN as contrary the United Nations
Charter and as attacks upon the sovereignty and territorial integrity
of Greece.
--------------------------------------------------------------
> If you are referring to Macedonians in Bulgaria,
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
>they usually have no problem calling themselves Macedonians.
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
> Similarly the GOrani of Kosovo, they too have no problem calling
> themselves Macedonians.
Macedonians are only those in the Greek province of Macedonia.
> The villagers
> both over the Albanian border near Debar and those in the Prespa areas
> in Albania similarly have no problem being called Macedonians.
Macedonians are only those in the Greek province of Macedonia.
The ONLY Macedonia.
> Those Macedonians
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
>still existing in the prefecture in Greece sometimes do and
> sometimes don't, depending on who they are talking to and whether it
> will affect their careers, their children, their relatives and their
> future.
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
> If there was no adverse affect, then perhaps they would also
> have no problems considering themselves Macedonians
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
>in Greek Macedonia just like their Pirin and Vardar and Prespa,
> etc. brothers and sisters.
Gail you are simply a No-good commie-minded piece of filth.
> There is nothing "maximal" about Macedonians
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
being able to freely and
> without social, economic or political reprisals being able to call
> themselves Macedonians.
Filthy whore to history and truth. They, folks ARE West Bulgarian
or Bulgarian Macedonians. Gail is simply a compulsive, filthy liar.
>That is a MINIMAL standard.
FILTH, get this! You ARE a WHORE to history and truth, and you
are so commie-minded that you purposely insult millions by your
mindless FILTH!:
'The more than 2,000,000 Greeks who live in Macedonia (outnumbering
the Slav inhabitants of FYROM) and the 18 Million Greeks world-wide
consider it as OFFENSIVE and INSULTING to themselves, their ancestors
and kinsmen, and to their Hellenic heritage and inheritance for anyone
but Macedonian Greeks to call themselves Macedonian and the region
they inhabit Macedonia.'
June R Harton
The filthy whore to history and truth wrote
> That your mom is Greek, since she speaks dopyi, is questionable.
> That you might be part Macedonian is possible.God bless both
> heritages.
You filthy heretic, God will punish you for your continued lies.
Macedonian is Greek, Fyromians are West Bulgarian and you are
related to the Balkans only in two possible ways, Gypsy or Turk
which means essentially that you have no business in this
discussion, you are also educationally deprived, you waste of
God given skin!
Gail's own words:
"I left home as a teenager like I said.
................
I haven't trace my whole family but
my grandmother was English & English gypsy,
my grandfather unknown parentage from father & Cherokee.
Other side, grandfather English & 1/4 Dutch
(maybe only 1/8 Dutch)
grandmother English with some people who are mixed
from Appalachians (some people think they were Turks,
mixed w/ slaves, or Indians-there is a website on
them).........................................."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
..........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
June R Harton
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"You take the lies out of them, and they'll shrink to the size of your
hat, you take the malice out of them, and they will disappear."
Mark Twain
(even Mark Twain knew about the Gail and the Fyromian revisionists)
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
And lets read what the ancients actually said :
ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND THE MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."
ANCIENT GREEKS REFERRING TO THE MACEDONIANS
AS GREEK:
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
MACEDONIANS SAYING THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE GREEK:
Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31
Speech of the Macedonian ambassador to the Aitolians:
"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of
the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes
that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are
enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not
from reasons that change from day to day."
Ilinden
Junebug the Ftcogian from the FTCOG wrote:
>
>
>
> FTCOG President KOSTIS STEFANOPULOS Said: "We OCCUPIED AEGEAN MACEDONIA IN
> 1913, WE SUPPRESSED THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE IN 1936, WE CHANGED ALL THE
> TOPONYMS FROM MACEDONIAN INTO GREEK, WE ALSO CHANGED ALL THE FIRST AND LAST
> NAMES FROM MACEDONIAN INTO GREEK. FROM JOVAN TRPCHEV TO IOANNIS
> TRENDAFILINOPULOS.
June R Harton
ilindra wrote
>OCCUPIED AEGEAN MACEDONIA IN 1913
LIAR!
European Turkey:
Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which are to work
out the details of the new statutes for each province. The organization
projects to be worked out by the
commissions will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."
And Rumelia, from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only
ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA
Rumelia
Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the Ottoman
army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic culture,
which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in Üsküb,
Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania, and
Bosnia-Herzegovina.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
..........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Voyager
PERSON WHO SUPPORTED a Turk Fasist who
wrote that Turkey will be a new empire from Italy
too China INCLUDING FYROM.
Voyager
Certified LAZ
>The filthy whore to history and truth wrote
Gail, June called you a filthy whore.....and i agree.