Alexander Writes to the Persian King, Darius
Chloe
From Arrian. Arrian's History of Alexander's Expedition. trans. John
Rooke, vol. II (London: Printed for R. Lea, 1814), 93-94.
"Your predecessors have entered Macedonia and the rest of Greece in a
hostile manner, and injured us, before they received any injuries from
us. I, at my advancement to the empire of Greece, willing to revenge my
country's wrongs upon the Persians, have passed over into Asia, having
received sufficient provocation from your former numerous ravages. You
aided the Perinthians in their unjust wars against my father; and Ochus
transported an army of Persians into Thrace, to disturb the peace of our
government. My father was slain by traitors, whom you had hired for that
purpose, (as you have everywhere boasted in your letters;) and at the
same time, when you had taken care that Arses should be dispatched by
Bagoas, you usurped the empire unjustly, and in open defiance of all the
Persian laws. You have, moreover, wrote letters into Greece, encouraging
my subjects to rebellion, and to that end have sent money to the
Lacedaemonians and others, which nevertheless all the Grecians, except
the Lacedaemonians, loyally rejected; by which means you strove to
withdraw my friends and followers from me, and to dissolve that firm
league which I have entered into with all the states of Greece.
Wherefore I have invaded thy realms in a hostile manner, because thou
wast the first author of hostilities. And now, when I have beaten thy
governors and captains, and afterwards thyself and thy whole army in a
pitched battle; and have already, by the permission of the gods, gained
possession of Asia; as many of thy soldiers as surrendered themselves
into my hands after the battle, I protect; neither do they tarry with me
against their inclinations, but freely and voluntarily take up arms for
my cause. To me, therefore, as lord of all Asia, come and apply thyself:
but if thou art afraid of any harsh usage upon thy coming, send some of
thy friends, who may take an oath from me for thy safety. When thou
comest into my presence, ask for thy mother, thy wife, and thy children,
and whatsoever thou wilt besides, and thou shalt receive them; and
nothing shall be denied thee. However, when you write to me next,
remember to entitle me King of Asia; neither write to me any more as
your equal, but as lord of all your territories. If you act otherwise, I
shall look upon it as an indignity of the highest consequence; and if
you dispute my right to the possession of your realms, stay and try the
event of another battle; but hope not any more to secure yourself by
flight, for wherever you fly, thither I will surely pursue you."
Dorian West
"Chloe" <atm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41f8b81e$0$25506$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
That's telling the Asian savages.
Adeimantos
"Dorian West" <bitb...@ripe.net> wrote in message
news:41f8...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> That's telling the Asian savages.
Asian savages? The Persians were a highly civilized people of the ancient
world and were praised by Greeks such as Xenophon and Plutarch.
Furthermore, Greece and Persia had a tremendous influence on one another in
architecture, science, medicine, and the military, to name a few areas.
There was nothing "savage" about them.
As for the Persians being "Asian", that is just as absurd. The Persians
(Iranians) are Caucasians who speak an Indo-European language. The
Persians, just like the ancient Greeks, belonged to the Near Eastern
civilizations. It wasn't until Western historians, lacking a glorious
ancient history of their own, appropriated ancient Greece and branded it as
part of their artificial "Western civilization". In truth, ancient Greece
and Persia have more in common with each other than Greece does with any
Western cultures. It's unfortunate that modern Greeks, blinded by a
sickening Europhilia, fail to see this obvious truth.
-Adeimantos
Danaos
"Adeimantos" <adeim...@cox.net> wrote adeimastos gia pesmas ta gumnastiria
kai ta theatra prin tou aleksadrou twn perswn Mallon den ksereis ti les
Politismo exoun kai h katsikes oi ellhnes file evalan thn praksei sto xarti
kai thn onomasan an me katalavenhs ti lew tote apanthse alliws ase aytous
pou kseroun na yperaspizonte thn alhtheia
Matt
> The Persians
> (Iranians) are Caucasians who speak an Indo-European language.
That "race" is a dangerous outmoded notion is accepted by most literate
people - European or not. All one can say is that our modern world
civilization is based on the accomplishments of earlier ones. It makes
no sense for ANYONE to try to "take credit" for these.
Here is an excerpt from an excellent article on the
http://www.diplomacy.edu/ website.
ON RACISM, INTOLERANCE, DISCRIMINATION AND SLAVERY
The recent Durban Conference on Racism found it difficult to clearly
define its subject. This is not surprising, as the very notion of race
is nowdays denied by science since the decyphering of human Genome.
Moreover, the very conference shows that more hatred prevails and more
atrocities are committed among humans belonging apparently to a same
race than between different "races"....
Race and Racism
During most of the 19th and 20th centuries, it was held that humans are
made up of several races. The oldest and most visible distinction was
based on the colour of the skin: black and white. Moreover Mongol races
were called "yellow", an obvious mistake as anyone having frequented
Chinese and Japanese - or even true Mongols - can confirm. The
distinctive sign in this case is rather the configuration of the
eyelids. Today we know that genetic differences between humans are
minimal and not at all related to so-called racial characteristics. Two
blond Scandinavians may be more different genetically than any of them
with regard to a Senegalese or an Indonesian.
Another element for the determination of "race" is cultural. Thus the
"Aryan race" was supposed to be made up of people speaking
Indo-Germanic languages. The "Semitic race" was seen as made up of
people speaking Semitic languages. This would mean that speaking of
"anti-Semitic" Arabs is total nonsense, as Arabs and Jews are both
speaking Semitic languages, which moreover are closely related.
In Europe language-based definition of race is completely impossible.
The people presently occupying that continent are a hopeless mix of
groups that have moved into it over millennia. Some have brought
languages and others have adopted the language of the people they found
on arrival. Thus the arbitrariness of language-based racism should be
obvious to all. Albanians are descended mostly from the same people as
Serbs or Macedonian Slavs.
Today's Greeks are a mix of Slavs, Turks and some remanents of earlier
inhabitants of their country. Even Anatolian Turks are a mix of older
inhabitants of the region later superseded by Turkic invaders.
Hungarians and Finns should be of the same language-based "race",
although the former are as difficult to distinguish from their Balkanic
neighbours as are the latter from other Scandinavians.....
Sigh!
mat...@canada.com
SORRY! This was accidentally cross-posted to soc.culture.greek because
I failed to notice that it had been cross-posted into alt.news.macedonia
Adeimantos
news:gd9Ld.5$Or...@fe11.lga...
Entaxei. Tha afiso autous pou kseroun na "uperaspizonte thn alitheia" na
apantisoun... kai giauto dialego ton Ploutarcho kai ton Xenophon na se
diafotisoun peri ton politismo tis Persias. Otan exeis meletisei ta erga
tous, tote ela na suzitisoume.
-Adeimantos
Panayiotis
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
"Adeimantos" <adeim...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mQcLd.71182$Tf5.67626@lakeread03...
Adeimante,
Diorthossi: ton Ploutarcho kai ton Xenophonta.
Panayiotis
Adeimantos
news:1107121384.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> That "race" is a dangerous outmoded notion is accepted by most literate
> people - European or not.
Race is a scientific fact. The only people who deny race do so for
political reasons. Usually in a misguided hope to "destroy racism" by
"refuting" the reality of race. Forensic anthropologist and professor of
anthropology George W. Gill defends the scientific reality of race. You can
read his views at http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/race.html and
also at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html
> Today's Greeks are a mix of Slavs, Turks and some remanents of earlier
> inhabitants of their country.
This is not only fallacious but has also been refuted by scores of
scientific studies and history itself since it was first theorized by
arm-chair "historian" Fallmerayer in the 1800s. The following website is
probably one of the greatest resources on the internet on Greek racial
anthropology and refutes the various theories that deny Greek racial
continuity: http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/
Here are also some excerpts from Carleton Stevens Coon's seminal work "The
Races of Europe" on modern Greeks (both from chapter XII, section 14):
"It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically
from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the
Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds
of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to
the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of
Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been
nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South
Germans, to cite but a single example."
"The Greeks, in short, are a blend of racial types, of which two are most
important; the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricisrn here is
present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete
Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the
days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged is today the most
important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the
Bronze Age, is still a major factor, it is my personal reaction to the
living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient
world is remarkable, rather than the opposite."
-Adeimantos
Adeimantos
"Panayiotis" <panayi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctjmqk$g0c$1...@nic.grnet.gr...
> Adeimante,
>
> Diorthossi: ton Ploutarcho kai ton Xenophonta.
>
> Panayiotis
Opps, thanks for catching the typo, Panayioti.
-Adeimantos
stardimi
imply that races actually do exist? Also can you provide some evidence
for the above claim? I personally don't care so much about the question
wether Greeks are actually a mix. Everyone konws that Greeks are at
least a mix of Dorians, Achaians, Iones, Mekedons, etc. What I do care
about is the sleesy desire of some (not necessarily you) to create this
notion that Greeks are actually a mix of the "bad" genes of the
invaders and a negligible proportion of the "good" genes of the old
inhabitants. This is a common policy of loosers who are infact racist
against themselves believeing that all these other genes are "inferior"
therefore they need to create a confused grey theory of the "lost greek
genes" that serves their miserable perception of themselves and feeds
their inferiority complex. I have never read any sober theory that
supports the claim of the "lost" greek genes. In fact any study I
accidentally came accross indicated quite the oposite.
Panayiotis
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
"Adeimantos" <adeim...@cox.net> wrote in message
Panda me filika esthimata ke kaloproereta.
Panayiotis
Jason K. Lambrou
You feel better now Matty-nutty,do you have any proof of your
statement of the modern day Greek DNA.Why you take so much interest
in what Greek people want to think about themselves? Greece is not a
nuclear power which would put the whole planet in danger.How we
feel,about our ancient ancestors is none of your concern, unless
you are a Skopian or a Turk.If you are concerned so much about other
people, why don't you ask Egyptians, Iranians, and Chinese the same question
--
I don't worry about Turks,but history has taught
me to be cautious with them...GJK
Jason K. Lambrou
This the same poster who two weeks ago posted as his first post an
article by Dimou which was in many ways critical of modern day Greeks.
Why would an innocent poster post this in first contact with this group?
He is just another Skopian from Canada pretending to be some thing else.
Matt
> "Matt" <mat...@canada.com> wrote in message
> news:1107121384.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > That "race" is a dangerous outmoded notion is accepted by most
literate
> > people - European or not.
>
> Race is a scientific fact. The only people who deny race do so for
> political reasons. Usually in a misguided hope to "destroy racism"
by
> "refuting" the reality of race. Forensic anthropologist and
professor of
> anthropology George W. Gill defends the scientific reality of race.
You can
> read his views at
http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/race.html and
> also at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html
>
Thank you. In return, I would suggest that you acquaint yourself with
the views of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza. I am currently reading his
"The History and Geography of Human Genes", which he wrote in
collaboration with Paola Menozzi and Alberto Piazza.
Cavalli-Sforza himself maintains that "The classification into races
has proved to be a futile exercise." Genetic research, he has argued,
undermines "the popular belief that there are CLEARLY DEFINED races"
and will "contribute to the elimination of racism." The idea of race in
the human species "serves no purpose". "The classification into races
has proved to be a futile exercise."
Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues traced the origins of human
populations and the paths by which they spread throughout the world.
They accomplished this by mapping the worldwide geographic distribution
of genes for over 110 traits in over 1800 primarily aboriginal
populations.
Cavalli-Sforza doesn't deny the gross morphological distinctions
between various population groups. What he does do, is to place these
into the context of the genetic continuum and to illuminate the limited
"range" of the latter. Indeed, his research indicates that "Europeans",
as such, appeared very late in the ongoing process of
differentiation(about 20,000 years ago).
Of course, the tremendous mixing of populations throughout history
makes any "schema" suspect. One reviewer of the book, who wants to push
unpleasant notions about "race", complains, for example, that "the
current genetic makeup of the populations of many areas bordering the
Mediterranean occurred after the Romans and Arabs imported many African
slaves. The authors, however, speak only of the Arab genetic influence
(which was probably insignificant)on the North African populations".
The bottom line is that, in the words of Time Magazine, "[This]
landmark global study flattens The Bell Curve, proving that racial
differences are only skin deep."
> > Today's Greeks are a mix of Slavs, Turks and some remanents of
earlier
> > inhabitants of their country.
>
I really must learn to be a little more careful when cutting and
pasting.....
> This is not only fallacious but has also been refuted by scores of
> scientific studies and history itself since it was first theorized by
> arm-chair "historian" Fallmerayer in the 1800s. The following
website is
> probably one of the greatest resources on the internet on Greek
racial
> anthropology and refutes the various theories that deny Greek racial
> continuity: http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/
>
With respect, this website appears to be just a bit more sophisticated
than those of some of the "white-supremacists". Some of the material on
it could have been taken straight from the "Volkische Beobachter".
> Here are also some excerpts from Carleton Stevens Coon's seminal work
"The
> Races of Europe" on modern Greeks (both from chapter XII, section
14):
Are you serious? CSC's "seminal works" were all published decades ago.
One reference that I consulted says:
"He taught (1934-48) at Harvard and in 1948 became professor of
anthropology at the Univ. of Pennsylvania and curator of ethnology at
the University Museum there. Coon became a controversial figure after
writing The Origin of Races (1962), in which he argued that certain
races had reached the Homo sapiens stage of evolution before others; he
said this would explain why different races achieved different levels
of civilization. Physical anthropologists now emphasize that the amount
of genetic variation between races, by any objective criteria, is
slight, indicating a recent origin for "racial" differences."
>
> "It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different
physically
> from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance
of the
> Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many
kinds
> of people living in different places, as they do today.
Exactly. The terms "Slavs" and "Turks" are also very rough, handy for
classifying languages and talking crudely about popluation movemnts and
admixtures.
Thanks for your careful reply!
For now, I think we must just agree to disagree.
Matt
mat...@canada.com
> hmmm when you say that Greeks are a "mix" of Slavs,Turks etc don't
you
> imply that races actually do exist?
I didn't say it. It was part of a block of text that I cut and pasted -
if I had noticed it, I would have removed this bit.
> Also can you provide some evidence
> for the above claim? I personally don't care so much about the
question
> wether Greeks are actually a mix. Everyone konws that Greeks are at
> least a mix of Dorians, Achaians, Iones, Mekedons, etc. What I do
care
> about is the sleesy desire of some (not necessarily you) to create
this
> notion that Greeks are actually a mix of the "bad" genes of the
> invaders and a negligible proportion of the "good" genes of the old
> inhabitants.
I don't believe that it makes sense to talk in this way about "bad
genes" and "good genes". ALL of the ancestors of the modern Greeks were
equal in every way that counts.
I do not believe that modern Greeks are one bit inferior to the ancient
Hellenes.
>This is a common policy of loosers who are infact racist
> against themselves believeing that all these other genes are
"inferior"
> therefore they need to create a confused grey theory of the "lost
greek
> genes" that serves their miserable perception of themselves and feeds
> their inferiority complex. I have never read any sober theory that
> supports the claim of the "lost" greek genes. In fact any study I
> accidentally came accross indicated quite the oposite.
I'm not sure that I understand what you're getting at here. I suspect
that you're referring to certain people who try to use half-baked,
distorted notions about genetics to insist that modern Greeks belong to
some kind of "master race". As to the lack of demographic continuity
between the ancient and modern Greeks, this is just a matter of fact.
I have great respect for Greece and its culture, unlike those who feel
they must propound silly racist theories to convince themselves of
their worth. I am glad that you don't need such silliness to bolster
your own self-respect.
Cheers,
Matt
Ioannis Borbelis
continuity... ???
What were you trying to say with this ? If it is about the now higher
representation of seniors in Greek society, then what's not continuous about
it ? ;-)
If you insist on negating the racial element, than that is fine by me. But
that leaves you no option than to consider the continuity of Greek
civilization as a cold hard fact. We're still here, we still speak Greek and
we have retained many of our customs and beliefs although a lot has changed
too. But why would you expect a people not to change in a period stretching
a couple of millenia...? That would be asking a lot from a group of mere
humans, wouldn't it...?
Do you already know what language your children will be speaking say over
500 hundred years ? Something resembling English if you're lucky... but it
might be Chinese or Russian too for all you know...
<mat...@canada.com> schreef in bericht
news:1107183177.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Matt
Ioannis Borbelis wrote:
> If you insist on negating the racial element, than that is fine by
me. But
> that leaves you no option than to consider the continuity of Greek
> civilization as a cold hard fact.
Absolutely. I have no problem with this
> Do you already know what language your children will be speaking say
over
> 500 hundred years ? Something resembling English if you're lucky...
but it
> might be Chinese or Russian too for all you know...
>
Given that I live in Canada, the most likely answer is "Chinese" :-)
(But since human inheritance is reticular rather than linear, there
will be no one in 500 years who derives more than an infinitessimally
tiny fragment of his genetic material from me.)
Cheers,
Matt
Ioannis Borbelis
Matt
> Let's stick to family trees...
.. (and get this, the regime was supported by the US...just like the
one in Iraq in the 80's... so this goes a long way in explaining Greek
skepticism about Bush's declared article of faith in the past couple of
years, or his last speech).
>
Skepticism about quite a number of W's beliefs is by no means confined
to Greeks.
> So far for family records/memories. Everything else is pretty much
gone for good... as far as I know. The only thing I am left with, is
the knowledge that the province of Macedonia-Thrace is one I can truly
call my (second) home. And considering my background, I am more of a
Thrakiotis then a Makedonas... The reason why Macedonia and Thrace are
combined as a province is also for historical reasons... You'd better
ask Anastassios Retzios about that... he is more knowledgable on this
terrain...
>
> Both my sister and I enjoyed a good education and upbringing in our
home-country. But a couple of summer-vacations and a sense of our
family history, and the history of Greece, already made us cling more
to our Greek identity in comparison to our Dutch one.
>
I, for one, would be happy to pay for a copy of your family history if
you ever publish one.
> So there you have it. We've had our fair share of
(wanabee)conquerors, be it either Persian, Roman, Arab, Frankish,
Venetian, Turk or even Italian/German. Some of them véry eager to
dissolve the Greek ethnos into their own flock (or master race, however
do you want it)... None of them eventually succeeded. Probably also
because the Greek "experience" has so much to show for and those with
an ounce of pride were not willing to relinquish it even at the
greatest cost. Many other groups of people have succumbed under lesser
onslaughts... like the Avars, the Pechenegs, the Celts.... the Tibetans
(?)... so this can be called an achievement by the 'modern' Greeks in
itself, I believe.... to have survived to this day and continue in the
world community as a living legend... I mean, just imagine a
South-America without the lasting - and whiping - effect of the
Conquistadores...
>
Yes, the Greek language and culture have shown themselves to be
remarkably resilient. BTW, don't give up on the poor Tibetans - I think
they'll surprise us all yet.
> But yeah, I know... we have our fair share of xenofobes and down
right idiots to show for it as well... Let's call those the "bad" genes
then, shall we ? :-)
>
>
Agreed. I wish that it were possible to create separate NG's for those
types so they could abuse each other to their hearts' content, and let
others talk in peace.
ADR
gone for good... as far as I know. The only thing I am left with, is
the knowledge that the province of Macedonia-Thrace is one I can
truly call my (second) home. And considering my background, I am more
of a Thrakiotis then a Makedonas... The reason why Macedonia and
Thrace are combined as a province is also for historical reasons...
knowledgable on this terrain...
Well, the fact is that Macedonia and Thrace are not combined. They are
separate provinces. They comprise the North of Greece and they were
administered until 1991 by the Ministry of Northern Greece (which
resulted from the fusion of the Directorare of Macedonia and
Directorate of Thrace post-WWII). In 1991, the Ministry was renamed
Ministry of Macedonia-Thrace, a purely cosmetic change. In fact, the
ministry itself provides only supporting services, the counties have
their own elected councils and county supervisors (nomarchs).
ADR
Panayiotis
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
news:1107183177.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> stardimi wrote:
> > hmmm when you say that Greeks are a "mix" of Slavs,Turks etc don't
> you
> > imply that races actually do exist?
>
>
> I didn't say it. It was part of a block of text that I cut and pasted -
> if I had noticed it, I would have removed this bit.
>
>
mattgss,
In my part of the world, this would have been called FORGERY.
Panayiotis
Adeimantos
> With respect, this website appears to be just a bit more sophisticated
> than those of some of the "white-supremacists". Some of the material on
> it could have been taken straight from the "Volkische Beobachter".
That's absurd. There is nothing remotely racist on that entire website as
you are well aware. In fact, every conclusion drawn is based on, and backed
by, meticulous research from credible and respected anthropological sources.
Furthermore, that same website refutes Arthur Kemp's racist drivel. And, to
top it off, your precious Cavalli-Sforza is used as a reference several
times on that same site. It's quite clear that you have no serious evidence
to refute the conclusions and so you, in typical fashion, attack the source
as "racist." Unfortunately, that doesn't work here.
> Are you serious? CSC's "seminal works" were all published decades ago.
Regardless, "The Races of Europe" is required reading material for every
student of biological anthropology. Not to mention that every serious work
of anthropology continues to use it as a source.
> > "It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different
physically
> > from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance
of the
> > Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many
kinds
> > of people living in different places, as they do today.
> Exactly. The terms "Slavs" and "Turks" are also very rough, handy for
> classifying languages and talking crudely about popluation movemnts and
> admixtures.
You either fail to understand the meaning of the above or conveniently take
it out of context. When Coon says that, "In classical times the Greeks
included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do
today", he stresses the point that many sub-racial types existed and that
those same sub-racial types also exist today; hence, supporting the
conclusion that modern Greeks have not notably changed from their ancestors.
This latter point is explicitly made when he writes, "It is inaccurate to
say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks"
and also when he makes the point about how sixth century BC inhabitants of
Attica and the Spartans of Leonidas have undergone fewer changes than that
between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans. Had the Slavs
made a major impact on the Greek populace by intermarrying with the Greeks,
such comparisons could not be made as the dominant sub-racial types of
Greece would be minority elements. The same applies to the Turks. But
racial analysis isn't even necessary to refute theories of a Turkish racial
element in modern Greeks; an elementary knowledge of Ottoman history is
enough to dispel that myth.
-Adeimantos
June R Harton
>Today's Greeks are a mix of Slavs, Turks and some remanents of earlier
>inhabitants of their country.
That is mostly false and you should of realized that by now. First, most
of the "Slavs" that made it to Greece were removed to Asia Minor
and Syria or killed. Second, some Greeks indeed could become "Turks"
but they all left Greece, but Turks never became Greeks as that was a
death warrant to give up being a Moslem!
Now, please don't make me repeat this to you in future again.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
<mat...@canada.com> wrote in message
news:1107183177.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>As to the lack of demographic continuity
>between the ancient and modern Greeks, this is just a matter of fact.
OK, lad, just where did you come up with that "fact".
For your info, that is just about as false a fact as your earlier sytatement
re Greeks being Slavs and Turks.
Now, if you must post false data here be kind enough to present the data
which mislead you to that conclusion and *I* will show you and everyone
why that darta is false.
June R Harton
"Jason K. Lambrou" <jkl...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ATiLd.62956$Yh2.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Good point!
Dorian West
I beg to differ. Their homeland is Asia, therefore they are Asian. Their
civilisation was still not a developed city-state system like the Greeks.
They had tent dwellers surrounding a great palace in Persopolis so they were
still essentially nomads.
Dorian West
<Anastassios D. Retzios> wrote in message
news:nb5rv0950m6tq75lt...@4ax.com...
> On 30 Jan 2005 13:43:04 -0800, "Matt" <mat...@canada.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Today's Greeks are a mix of Slavs, Turks and some remanents of earlier
>>inhabitants of their country. Even Anatolian Turks are a mix of older
>>inhabitants of the region later superseded by Turkic invaders.
>>Hungarians and Finns should be of the same language-based "race",
>>although the former are as difficult to distinguish from their Balkanic
>>neighbours as are the latter from other Scandinavians.....
>>
>>
>>Sigh!
>
>
> Yes, modern Greeks are a mix but there are no Turks in the mix because
> the milliet system of the Ottoman Empire did not allow this to happen.
> Traffic was strictly one way from Greek to Turk (Moslem). The other
> way around was not only illegal but foolish (as one lost not only
> one's head but had to pay head tax as well)!!!
>
> What kind of a mix the Greeks are can hardly be determined today (for
> example, the Chronicle of Monemvasia does not allow anybody to really
> deduce how many Slavs were left in southern Greece after 805 AD, so
> virtually anything can be argued. Not do we have good sources of how
> many Greek did Emperor Nikephoros transferred from southern Italy to
> the Peloponnese in the beginning of the 9th century; nor can we
> estimate with any accuracy the number of Normans, Franks, Italians,
> Catalans, Genoese, Venetians etc who settled in southern Greece and
> Italy between 1204 and 1350 AD; nor can we really evaluate adequately
> the number of Albanian settlers...and so on) but this is beside the
> point. The designation Greek had always been cultural/linguistic not
> racial.
>
> So, Matt, although you seem to state on one hand that "race" is a very
> dicey issue, you appear, on the other hand, ready to take a stub at
> it.
>
> ADR
I like to argue by using my God given brain for some good-old fashioned
facial and cranial analysis. Not your missing sources a la Zhivko (great
name, for a lizard).
Matt
It was identified in the post as an "excerpt from an article" - the
website on which the original article was located was identified. It
was the reader (as often happens) who failed to notice this.
Costica Gogule KOKU !
Yeah, nice one Doreen, let's try it shall we...
http://www.sci-sonic.com
A breeding experiment twixt RAT and Hulk ?
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
Costica Gogule KOKU !
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
FLIPPER !
FLIPPER !
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
FLIPPER !
FLIPPER !
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jason K. Lambrou
That post is written by something so confused, it doesn't know whether
to scratch its watch or wind its ass. Your ineffective imitation of good
posting style only serves to illuminate your lack of substance, good
taste, and decency.
Jason K. Lambrou
That post is written by something :-[ so confused, it doesn't know
Ioannis Borbelis
| Administrative region | Name according to ISO | ISO | Abv | NUTS | Population | Area(km.²) | Area(mi.²) | Capital |
|---|
| Macedonia East and Thrace | Anatoliki Makedonia kai Thraki | I |
MT |
GR11 |
570,261 | 14,157 | 5,466 | Comotini |