Emigranti sakaat drzhava, i da se smeni himnata i znameto
Ilinden
detsa se rodeni vo Kanada, istoto je i za drugite 160 drugi narodnosti
zhiveaat samo vo gradot Toronto Kanada i tie bea emigranti od drugi
drzhavi, nikoj od ovie 160 narodnosti ne baraat drzhava da napravat
ili znameto ili himnata da se smeni i da ima neshto od site 160
narodnosti shto zhiveeat vo Toronto. Samo Albantsite go baraat toa vo
Makedonija, kolku prava imaat Makedontsite vo Mala Prespa?
Albantsite se emigranti kako nie shto sme vo Toronto Kanada, Albantsite
se mnogu srekni
( kasmetlii )shto imaat tolku chovechki prava vo Makedonija i site drugi
narodnosti, nikade vo svetot nemaat tolku chovechki prava kolku stho
imaat drugite narodnosti shto zhiveat vo Republika Makedonija.
PDP I DPA BARAAT PROMENA NA DRZZAVNOTO ZNAME I SIMBOLITE
Potrebna e promena na drzzavnite simboli bidejki Makedonija po 2001
godina, Ramkovniot dogovor i ustavnite promeni, ne e istata drzzava
ssto besse. Zgora na toa dosega ne se prifateni predlozite na
Albancite vo Makedonija nitu pri donesuvanjeto na prvoto
postkomunisticcko zname, nitu pri izmenata ssto besse napravena na
baranje i pod pritisok na Grcija. Vaka, spored TV Sitel pretstavnicite
na opozicionite DPA i PDP ja objasnuvaat inicijativata za promena na
drzzavnoto zname i simbolite.
Abduljali Vejseli od PDP izjavil za TV Sitel deka drzzavnoto zname
treba da ima elementi od site zaednici koi zziveat vo Republika
Makedonija. 'Drzzavnoto zname treba da bide bide prifateno od site
gragjani vo Republika Makedonija, a ne kako dosega da bide da se
identifikuva samo od edna zaednica - makedonskata', izjavil Vejselji.
Toj dodal deka dokolku Vladata nema namera vo edna possiroka
konsultacija so site subjekti vo drzzavaa da izleze so predlog za
znameto, togass PDP nabrgu kje izleze so sopstven predlog pred
Sobranieto
DPA od svoja strana bara osven znameto da se smenat i himnata i grbot,
a na niv da stojat bietniccki simboli. Spored Demuss Bajrami od DPA,
so Ohridskiot dogovor e smenet konceptot na drzzavnoto ureduvanje.
Noviot koncept, spored nego treba da bide prosleden so promena na
makedonskata svest, bidejki Makedonija treba da bide binacionalna
drzzava. Bajrami dodal deka DPA smeta deka promenite treba da bidat
postignati so dogovor na site strani i najavuva deka kje dade i svoj
konkreten predlog. 'Ne mozzeme da imame multuetncicka drzzava i
drzzava na ramnopravni etniccki zaednici, a da imame simboli koi ja
pretstavuvaat samo ednata strana', izjavil Bajrami.
Oficijalen stav na vladeacckata DUI po ova prassanje momentalno nema.
Spored 'Dnevnik', potpretsedatelot na DUI, Agron Budzaku za 'Fakti'
izjavil deka na partisko nivo ne bilo razgovarano za eventualna
promena na drzzavnoto zname. Budzaku dodal deka ovaa partija kje
pocceka da go vidi predlozite na PDP i DPA.
Vo SDSM inaku smetaat deka prassanjeto na izgledot na drzzavnoto zname
i himnata e zatvoreno, a obidite na PDP i DPA se samo politiccki
marketing. Spored 'Dnevnik', SDSM i DUI neodamna potpissale spogodba
so koja DUI se obvrzuva za pocituvanje na oficijalnoto drzzavno zname.
Vesnikot pissuva deka prassanjeto za promena na znameto i himnata bilo
postaveno od Arben Dzaferi za vreme na pregovorite za Ohridskiot
dogovor, no bile odbieni od SDSM, VMRO-DPMNE i megjunarodnata
zaednica.
Ilinden the Macedonian
June R Harton
"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F3395FA...@sympatico.ca...
> Zdravo Makedonci, i nie Makedontsite
Here is your original scam, folks.
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:4V0Za.44$eV...@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3F3395FA...@sympatico.ca...
> > Zdravo Makedonci, i nie Makedontsite
>
Silly attempt, troll, to deceive the folks out there.
For fair use only.
http://tinyurl.com/jjc8
WolfWolf
The European
June R Harton
WolfWolf
June R Harton
dogdog, keep your Fyromian Bulgar lies out of here or you will get your tail
cut off.
"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Greek race akin to the Dorians."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton publications, 1967.
Hope this truth helps you dogdog.
With amusment
WolfWolf
>
>
> "And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
> morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Simple, troll, the only Macedonians, look:
For fair use only.
MACEDONIAN WORLD CONGRESS
Organizational Members Located Throughout the World
Macedonia, United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, England,
Belgium, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Norway, Brazil, Russia,
Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Turkey, Austria and South Africa.
PHONE/FAX 904-676-2466 P.O. BOX 2826, ORMOND BEACH, FLORIDA, U.S.A 32175
Therefore:
The Claims put forward by Greece that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, that their
native language was Greek, and that Macedonia was a region of Greece are all false.
The historical truth is that Greece was inhabited by Greeks, Macedonia by Macedonians.
The presence of Greek settlements along the coast of Macedonia which Philip II
destroyed anyway did not change Macedonia's ethnic character. Likewise, a very much
stronger and longer Greek presence in Egypt did not transform that African land into a
region of Greece. The ancients knew where Greece ended and where Macedonia began. They
believed that Mount Olympus was in Macedonia, Mount Parnassus in Greece. Thus the
geographer Strabo calls Olympus "the highest mountain in Macedonia". It still is.
Author:
Jacques Bacid, Ph.D. Columbia University, 1983, has taught Slavic languages, Balkan,
and East European history at the University of Oregon. He writes and lectures on these
subjects. Jacques Bacid is a chairperson of the Illyrian Committee. He is an American
Croatian.
For additional information, write to the following:
Illyrian Committee or Macedonian World Congress P.O. Box 1948 P.O. Box 2826 Cathedral
Station Ormond Beach, FL New York, NY 10025 32175-2826 USA USA
The enclosed is not intended to defend the right of the Macedonian people to call
themselves by this name; the civilized world has acknowledges this right. Highlighted
here are some signposts from Macedonia's past and its relations with neighbouring
Greece. This document is written in the form of a court-case presentation to allow
readers to see clearly the absurdity of Greek allegations against the people of
Macedonia.
THE CASE
Greece alleges that:
1) The Macedonians should not be recognized as Macedonians because the Macedonians
have been of Greek nationality since 2000 B.C.
2) Those Macedonians whose language belongs to the Slavic family of languages, must
not call themselves Macedonians because 4000 years ago the Macedonians spoke Greek and
still speak nothing but Greek.
3) Macedonia has no right to call itself by this name because Macedonia has always
been and is today a region of Greece.
The people of Macedonian affirm that:
1) The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of
their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to
their descendants today.
2) The ancient Macedonians regarded the Greeks as neighbours not as kinsmen. The
Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners ("barbarians") whose native language was
Macedonian not Greek.
3) Macedonian was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, Greece was often subject
to Macedonia. In 1913, Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia, and if
today a portion of Macedonian belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal
partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.
These assertions will be shown to be true in the eyes of history.
MACEDONIANS AND GREEKS THROUGH THE AGES
Throughout antiquity, the Chasia and Kamvounia mountains, Mount Olympus, and the vale
of Tempe separated Macedonia from Greece. On the north, Macedonia extended as far as
the Vardar watershed and along the Struma and Mesta valleys, past the city of
Blagoevgrad to the sources of the Bistrica River in the Rila Mountain in today's
Bulgaria. Macedonia covered a land area of c. 26,000 square miles.
In the course of the second pre-Christian millennium, the ancient Greeks descended in
several migratory waves as goatherds and shepherds from the interior of the Balkans
into Greece. Some passed through the Morava-Vardar Valley and across the plain of
Thessaly on their way south, while others went south through Epirus. More recent
scholars point to Asia minor as the original Greek homeland.
There is no evidence that prehistoric Macedonia was ever occupied by Greeks.
The Bronze Age Mycenaean Greek civilization, names so after the city of Mycenae on the
Peloponnesus, thrived from c. 1400 to 1100 B.C. in mainly Greece and on the Aegean
islands. Archaeological finds from Macedonia are meagre and sporadic; scholars believe
that ancient Macedonia lay beyond the cultural and ethnic borders of Mycenaean Greece.
The ancient Macedonians claimed kinship with the Illyrians, Thracians, and the
Phrygians, not with the Greeks. In fact, the Brygians of Macedonia were believed to be
the European branch of the people who in Asia Minor were known as the Phrygians.
Ancient Macedonia was home to many tribes and nations. Homer did not know the
Macedonians by this name. Of the many Macedonia peoples, Homer only mentions the
Paeones who lives in the heart of Macedonia. In the Trojan War, the Paeones joined the
besieged Trojans, an indication that they were not Greeks. Greek and other historians
frequently mention the Brygians. Their name derives from the Macedonian word 'breg',
"hill/mountain". The Brygians were the "hillsmen" of Macedonia. Another remarkable
people were the Mygdones, who lived in Aegean Macedonia, in Asia Minor, and in Upper
Mesopotamia.
Greek migrants came to Macedonia, Thrace, and Illyria after they had exhausted the
possibilities of settlement in Asia Minor, Italy, France, Spain and Scythia, known
today as Ukraine and Russia. Some famous ancient Greeks went to Macedonia and Thrace
in search of livelihood or adventure. These included Pythagoras, Euripides, Herodotus,
and Aristotle's ancestors. However, the Greeks did not consider Macedonia especially
attractive for permanent settlement. Neither did the Macedonians welcome them as
openheartedly as did the Italians and Scythians. Perhaps Aristotle who left Macedonia
while still a young man would have never gone back had the Macedonia King Philip II
(360-366 B.C.) not hired him to be his son's tutor. In any case, by the middle of the
fourth pre-Christian century, Greek settlers were expelled from Macedonia, their
cities, including Aristotle's native Stagira, razed to the ground by Philip, and
Aristotle died in exile in Greece.
The ancient Macedonians regarded the Greeks as potentially dangerous neighbours, never
as kinsmen. The Greeks unanimously stereotyped the Macedonians as "barbarians" and
treated them in the same bigoted manner in which they treated all non-Greeks.
Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I (498-454
B.C.), a Philhellene, that is, "a friend of the Greeks", and logically a non-Greek,
wanted to take part in the Olympic games. The Greek athletes protested, saying they
would not run with a barbarian. The historian Thucydides, himself half barbarian,
considered the Macedonians as barbarians. Demosthenes, the great Athenians statesman
and orator, spoke of the Macedonia king Philip II as:
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any
place that can be named with honours, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it
was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." [Third Phillipic, 31]
The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338
B.C. and appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks." The date is commonly takes as
the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era.
[Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 A.D.]
Greeks prospered under the Macedonians, but they prospered in Egypt and West Asia, not
in Greece and not in Macedonia. Though the Macedonians expelled the Greeks from
Macedonia and Thrace, they permitted them to settle throughout their vast empire in
Asia and Africa. Antiochia and Alexandria, to name just the two most important cities
established by Macedonians, grew into great cosmopolitan metropolises where Europeans,
Africans, and Asians traded goods, ideas, and insults conversing mainly in Greek, the
'lingua franca' (common language) of the Macedonian empire.
Other significant historical signposts include:
* Greece was conquered by Macedonia at the battle of Chaeronea in 338 B.C.
* Both Macedonia and Greece were annexed by the Romans to their empire after the
battle of Pydna in 168 B.C.
* Under the Romans, the Greeks continued to prosper in the Levant, Asia Minor, and
Egypt, less so in Greece and not at all in Macedonia. While the Romans did not
establish any province by the name of Greece or Hellas, there were two Macedonia's in
their Empire: 'Macedonia Prima', known today as the Aegean Macedonia, and 'Macedonia
Salutaris', known today as the Vardar and Pirin Macedonias. The two Macedonian
provinces formed the Diocese of Macedonia, to which the Romans attached all of modern
Greece and Albania. Latin was the official language in Roman Macedonia, from 168 B.C.
until the demise of Roman rule at the end of the sixth Christian century.
* After the establishment of Christianity, the Macedonians and Greeks shed their
ethnicity in favour of the new identity as Christian and Roman citizens. Those who
spoke Latin called themselves 'Romani'. Those who spoke Greek, whether they were
Macedonians, Greeks, Armenians, or Arabs, referred to themselves as 'Rhomaioi', a
Greek word for Romans. Those who used Slavic language were known as 'Slovene'.
* In the sixth century, the Paeones, now called Slavs, came back and captured all of
Macedonia from the East Romans, with the exception of a few coastal cities. Macedonia
maintained its independence and resisted attacks by the Armenian and Syrian dynasties
who held power in New Rome (Byzantium) and by the shamanist and nomadic Bulgars who
roamed the steppes of the Dobrudja with their herds. Since the sixth century, the
native Macedonian language had been the dominant speech of the land. It was first
systematized in the middle of the ninth Christian century by SS. Cyril and Methodius,
the apostles of the Slavs who were born in Thessalonica, Solun. The Macedonian
language has functioned as the principal literary, liturgical, and colloquial language
of Macedonia ever since.
* In 867, the first European dynasty assumed power in medieval East Rome. The dynasty
is called Macedonian because the parents of its founder, Basil I, originated from the
Byzantine province of Macedonia. The Macedonian rulers in Byzantium spoke Macedonian
and Greek and thought of themselves as Macedonians and Rhomaioi. In the tenth century,
another dynasty came to power in Macedonia proper and reached its apogee under Tsar
Samuilo at the turn of the millennium.
* In 1014, the Macedonian Roman (Byzantine) Emperor Basil II defeated Tsar Samuilo and
soon annexed Macedonia to his East Roman state. Under the Macedonian rules and their
successors in Byzantium, the Macedonians retained their language, customs, and their
church organization.
* The East Roman Empire was destroyed by the Crusaders in 1204. During the next two
and a half centuries, the Macedonians fought foreign invaders, adventurers, and
bandits who tried to dominate their land. The Ottoman Turks established their rule in
Macedonia in the fifteenth century. The Turks used the name 'Rumelia' for their
possessions in the Balkan Peninsula in the belief that they had once belonged to the
Roman (Byzantine) Empire.
* In 1827, the Christian European powers intervened on behalf of Greek rebels and
forced the Turks to grant them independence. In 1832, the same powers established the
first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be "King of the Hellenes",
and sent him to Athens.
* Macedonian entered this century as a province of the Ottoman Empire, divided among
the Solun, Bitola, and Kosovo vilayets. The region was occupied primarily by
Macedonians. The census in the three vilayets taken by the Ottoman state in 1905 found
3,181,690 inhabitants. Other than to Macedonians, this region was home to many
Albanians, Turks, Romi, Vlachs, Jews, and Greeks.
* After the Ottoman state was weakened by internal troubles, Montenegro, Serbia,
Bulgaria, and Greece attacked their former masters. In this war, called the First
Balkan War, the Turks lost Macedonia. The victorious Balkan kingdoms convened in
Bucharest in August 1913 to divide the spoils. By the Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonian
was partitioned. Greece was awarded Aegean Macedonia and renamed it "Northern Greece";
Bulgaria annexed Pirin Macedonia and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took
Vardar Macedonia and renamed it "Southern Serbia."
* The Republic of Macedonia was created out of the ashes of the Second World War by
Josip Broz Tito, the anti-fascist leader of Yugoslavia, who recognized the Macedonians
as a distinct people with their own nationalist, language, and culture when he created
modern Yugoslavia. Macedonia became a sovereign state by a popular referendum held in
September 1991 when the majority of voters chose independence.
MACEDONIAN AND OTHER LANGUAGES
During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native
language.
The question of the use of the Macedonian language was raised by Alexander himself
during the trial of Philotas, one of his generals accused of treason. Alexander said
to Philotas:
"The Macedonians are about to pass judgement upon you; I wish to know whether you
their native tongue in addressing them." Thereupon Philotas replied: "Besides the
Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will more easily understand what I
shall say if I use the same language which you have employed, for no other reason, I
suppose, than in order that you speech might be understood by the greater number."
Then said the king: "Do you not see how Philotas loathes even the language of his
fatherland? For he alone disdains to learn it. But let him by all means speak in
whatever way he desires, provided that you remember he holds our customs in as much
abhorrence as our language." [Quintus Curtius Rufus, History of Alexander the Great of
Macedon, VI. ix. 34-36]
The trial of Philotas took place in Asia before a multi-ethnic public, which had
accepted Greek as their common language. Alexander spoke Macedonian with his
conationals, but used Greek in addressing West Asians.
Like Illyrian and Thracian, ancient Macedonian was not recorded in writing. However,
on the basis of about a hundred glosses, Macedonian words noted and explained by Greek
writers, some place-names from Macedonia, and a few names of individuals, most
scholars believe that ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language.
Evidence from phonology indicates that the Macedonian language was distinct from Greek
and closer to the Thracian and Illyrian languages.
Linguistic continuity between the ancient and modern Macedonians is shown by the
survival of Philip's original native name. Philip was known abroad as 'Philippos'. The
native Macedonian and Thracian form of his name was recorded in the name of the
Thracian town which he has conquered and named 'Pulpudeva', "the city of Philip". In
the language of its Slavic citizens it is known today as 'Plovdiv'. The cosmopolitan
form of the city's name is 'Philipopolis', a learned rendering of the native name.
Another example of this continuity involves the ancient capital of Macedonia, Edessa.
The Macedonians knew this city as 'Voden' long before linguists discovered that the
Slavic name was a translation of the original name and that both meant "watertown."
The Greeks, on the other hand, unless they study linguistics, do not know the meaning
of the name.
Since 1913, official Greece has been trying to banish native Macedonian names of
villages, towns, cities, and rivers in Aegean Macedonia. For example, the Macedonians
are being instructed to forget Voden and use the name Edessa and to drop the name
Solun in favour of Thessaloniki. The people whose ancestors have over the millennia
plowed the earth and grazed their sheep and goats in the Bistrica and Vardar valleys
are forced to learn from dead writers a dead language the "proper" names for their
rivers.
The little stream which issues from Mount Olympus and flows into the Aegean Sea by the
town of Katerini is labelled 'Mavroneri', "black water", on maps made by Greek
cartographers. However, the same river appears as "Crna Reka', a native Macedonian
name meaning "black river" on maps made before 1913. Perhaps the village of Nezero on
the southern slopes of Mount Olympus, has not yet been given a Greek name because it
has escaped the attention of Greek linguist purists. The name in fact derives from the
Slavic word for "lake". Of course, when Zeus and his divine company lived on Mount
Olympus, the lake had another name. But, ever since mortal Macedonians have lived
there, the lake has been called 'Ezero', meaning "lake".
SUMMARY
It is common knowledge that the northern boundary of ancient Greece ran from the
modern city of Preveza (a Macedonian name, meaning "ferrytown") or from Korfu to the
Vale of Tempe south of Mount Olympus. In antiquity, Macedonian was a northern
neighbour of Greece, never a province of Greece.
Alexander spoke Macedonian and was proud of his ethnicity. However, the Macedonian
language of his day was not used as a literary idiom. The first native written
language of Macedonia is the idiom called Macedonian or Old Church Slavic.
Though Alexander spoke Greek, loved Homer, and respected his tutor Aristotle, there is
much evidence that he hated and despised the Greeks of his day. He thoroughly
destroyed Thebes. His Asian empire is correctly called Macedonian, not Greek, for he
won it with an army of 35,000 Macedonians and only 7,600 Greeks. The Greeks
distinguished themselves on the side of the Persians. For instance, at the battle of
Issus, Alexander's European army was opposed by a large Asian host which included
about 30,000 Greek mercenaries who fought for the Persians. During his campaign in
Asia, Alexander dismissed the messenger who had brought him news of a war among the
Greeks, saying: "Why should I trouble myself with battles of mice"?
Alexander could not think of himself as a Greek, for his mother was from Epirus, a
land more Illyrian than Hellenic, and his earthly father was a Macedonian whom the
Greeks of his day called "a barbarian". More importantly, Alexander told the Egyptians
that his heavenly parent was their god Ammon. After he conquered Mesopotamia, Persia,
and the Indus Valley, he believed he was a god commanding his Greek subjects to accept
his divinity.
It is possible that the native Macedonian name "Mygdones" was the basis of the name
"Makedones," which then became the collective name for all the different peoples of
Macedonia. It is by the latter form that the various peoples of Macedonia became
universally known. Even if the ancient Greeks did take part in the shaping and
popularizing of this name, this does not give today's Greece the copyright to the name
"Macedonia".