True Story
Dirty Harry
from the outskirts of Solun and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
speaks Greek, and is a loyal Greek citizen). He's in his 60's now,
but when he was growing up he says the older people in his village did
not speak Greek. When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
Macedonian.
What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
the rights and cultures of its minorities?
June R Harton
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
> A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
> from the outskirts of Solun
No place with that name, Bulgarian.
>and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
> speaks Greek, and is a loyal Greek citizen). He's in his 60's now,
> but when he was growing up he says the older people in his village did
> not speak Greek. When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
> Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
> Macedonian.
> What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
> and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
> the rights and cultures of its minorities?
Complete and utter nonsense, of course, Bulgarian:
Folks, here is the real Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And here is some real history of the area:
Encyclopedia Britania 1911
Š 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
MACEDONIA
BIBLI0GRAPHY.—Jewitt and Hope, Corporation Plaic and Insignia of
Office,
&c. (2 vols., 1895); J. R. Garstin, Irish State and Civic Maces, &c.
(1898); J. Paton, Scottish Historyand Life (1902); J. H. Buck, Old
Plate
(1903), pp. 124—140; Cripps, Old English Plate (9th ed., 1906),
pp.
394—404; E. Alfred Jones, Old Plate at the Tower of London
(1908); ed., “
Some Historic Silver Maces,” Burlington Magazine (Dec. 1908).
(E. A. J.)
snip
In Salonica, Serres, Kavala, Castoria, and
other towns in southern Macedonia the Hellenic element is strong; in
the northern towns it is insignIficant, except at Melnik, which is
almost exclusively Greek. The Greek rural population extends from the
Thessalian frontier to Castoria and Verria (Beroea); it occupies the
whole Chalcidian peninsula and both banks of the lower Strymon from
Serres to the sea, and from Nigrita on the west to Pravishta on the
east; there are also numerous Greek villages in the Kavala district.
The Mahommedan Greeks, known as Valachides, occupy a
considerable tract in the upper Bistritza valley near Grevena and
Liapsista.
Also
The Slavs ...., but their great immigration took place in the 6th and
7th centuries. They overran .........driving ....the latinized population
of Macedonia into the highland districts, such as Pindus, Agrapha
and Olympus.
And, thus, the Latinized real Upper Macedonian Greeks are the Greek
Vlach then!
So, Bulgarian, you were saying?
:)
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Yannis
> A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
> from the outskirts of Solun and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
> speaks Greek, and is a loyal Greek citizen). He's in his 60's now,
> but when he was growing up he says the older people in his village did
> not speak Greek. When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
> Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
> Macedonian.
Let me speak to him. Send him my email address and tell him to write to me. Tell
him that Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods and
spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:Du9q9.36$kB1.1...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
> > A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
> > from the outskirts of Solun
>
> No place with that name, Bulgarian.
Troll, watch your skirt and keep your spam & falsehood out of here.
When you're yober, you may read it again. It's a true story, as true as I am
sitting here.
A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
from the outskirts of Solun and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
June R Harton
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
news:aobbcj$5ts$1...@nntp-m01.news.aol.com...
> When you're yober, you may read it again. It's a true story, as true as I
am
> sitting here.
Bwahahahhahahhahhahhahahaha
Here, education for you, troll:
> A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
> from the outskirts of Solun
No place with that name, troll.
>and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
> speaks Greek, and is a loyal Greek citizen). He's in his 60's now,
> but when he was growing up he says the older people in his village did
> not speak Greek. When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
> Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
> Macedonian.
> What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
> and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
> the rights and cultures of its minorities?
Complete and utter nonsense, of course, troll:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
MACEDONIA
Also
So, troll, you were saying?
Dorian West
TRIANGLE-HEADED DWARFS WITH SLIT-EYES AND YELLOW SKIN. When I crossed the
border to YugoSLAVIA, that's when the head shape changed into a hideous
monstrosity of a head - the Mongolslav head.
To acquaint yourselves, just go here and see what the murdering Mongolslavs
did news:3d5a6...@news.iprimus.com.au
For the umpteenth time, why did you Mongolslavs in YugoSLAVIA rename your
province of Vardar to Makedonija in 1944 and then brutally murder 200,000
Greeks?
Did you do this to wrench Macedonia from Greece?
Wrong us, will we not avenge?
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
WolfWolf
"Dorian West" <west...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3da93a75$0$12762$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> WHEN I WENT TO MACEDONIA I SAW NO
> TRIANGLE-HEADED DWARFS WITH SLIT-EYES AND YELLOW SKIN.
That's because you used no mirror.
Are you so ashamed of yourself??
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
I
> am
> > sitting here.
>
> Bwahahahhahahhahhahhahahaha
You see, troll? Sign of acute multiple personality disorder.
Time to get your medication. Later, when it works, read the true story
again.
And in the meantime watch your dirty mouth, skirt.
A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
from the outskirts of Solun and calls himself a Macedonian (but he
June R Harton
You have shown your worth, troll. Not one ounce of intellect,
simply propaganda without any understanding. You cannot and never
have been able to confront truth and everyone has now seen that.
As you have failed to stand against the challenge you show yourself
purely as wasting bandwidth and trolling and spamming here in
volume.
Thus:
As you are completely irrelevant to these newsgroups and your posts
interest nobody.....
Therefore, "WolfWolf", I have contacted
newsm...@compuserve.com to let them know that you insist on making
irrelevant and annoying posts to this group.
For the information of others who would like to do the same, you need to
send not only a message of complaint but also the headers and message
text of the offending individual. Here's how to do that if you're using
Outlook Express:
Open the message from the annoying individual.
Choose "Properties" from the "File" menu.
Select the Details tab.
Click the "Message Source..." button.
Click inside the box that opens and hit Control-A to select all the text
(or select it with your mouse).
Hit Control-C to copy the text.
Open a new message, then hit Control-V to paste the text inside this new
message.
Then, before the copied text, write your message of complaint (pointing
out the poster's irrelevance to the newsgroup topic and her verbal abuse
of others who have pointed this out) and send to
newsm...@compuserve.com
WolfWolf
That wasn't me, troll, it was exposed by yourself.
So watch your skirt and keep your spam & falsehood out of here.
When you're sober, you may read it again. It's a true story, as true as I am
sitting here.
A relative of mine married a Greek girl. Her father was originally
June R Harton
WolfWolf
>
> "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
> news:aobmgf$kc4$1...@nntp-m01.news.aol.com...
>
> from: Spirit of Truth
Troll, since your love for truth is so great, we'll give you a little
sample.
It is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Read it carefully - twice if neccessary.
And if you don't believe it, we can give you more verbatims.
tommy
I also know of a Greek guy who married a FYROMian girl. I am not sure which
part of FYROM they are from, I never cared to ask. But after the marriage,
the grandfather of the girl started talking GREEK to the Greek guy. So they
are having dinner. Her whole family knows only Bulgarian and English. The
girl's father and mother only know Bulgarian. And here is the guy speaking
GREEK with the grandfather. The parents never knew he knew Greek!!! He had
to hide his nationality even from his own kids for over around 40-50 years.
It shows there were many Greeks left in FYROM that were forgotten, and
forced to accept Tito's version of Bulgarian. The assimilation policy in
FYROM was very violent. It is not easy to turn proud Bulgarians into proud
Yugoslavs hating Bulgarians. Jail terms and 50 years constant propaganda, a
Church created by an atheist do help. But do you have to follow Tito's
propaganda?
Hello, he is dead, you can come out now, it's ok.
tommy makendonos
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Ilinden
are Macedonian and Tom is a Ftcogian or Grkoman , shame on you bre Grkoman
prodadena dusha.
Dirty Harry
>
> province of Vardar to Makedonija in 1944 and then brutally murder 200,000
> Greeks?
If it were up to me, it would have been closer to 2,000,000.
Dirty Harry
Ashamed of being a "Slav", all the "Proto-Bulgarian" wannabe Greeks
were stupid enough to be brainwashed with self-hatred by their
occupying masters. However, the Slavic world has vast natural
resources and highly-educated people (only shitty governments that
have been holding them back). Give them one generation and watch
these grkomans stampede to be first in line to emphasize their Slavic
roots once again.
Have a nice day.
Ilinden
the answer is a slav, what nationality was Mussolini they say latin, what nationality was King
Faruk from Egypt they say arabic, the Turkogreki are nitwits, because they were born in the
uncivilized country the Former Turkish Colony Of Greece (Ftcog)
Ilinden the Macedonian
Yannis
> The Turkogreki they say slav , latin, arabic, when you ask a Grekos what
nationality was Lenin
> the answer is a slav, what nationality was Mussolini they say latin, what
nationality was King
> Faruk from Egypt they say arabic, the Turkogreki are nitwits, because they
were born in the
> uncivilized country the Former Turkish Colony Of Greece (Ftcog)
Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods and spread
Greek Language and Civilization to the World. Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
Harry, one is enough, namely Dorian Istok.
Would the White Tower in Solun be a nice place to expose him as deterring
example, hanging upside down from the upper crown??
With a rotating device we could make him follow the sun around the tower ...
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"Yannis" <mak...@vip.gr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aocec5$ga3$5...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> "Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:...
> > The Turkogreki they say slav , latin, arabic, when you ask a Grekos what
> nationality was Lenin
> > the answer is a slav, what nationality was Mussolini they say latin,
what
> nationality was King
> > Faruk from Egypt they say arabic, the Turkogreki are nitwits, because
they
> were born in the
> > uncivilized country the Former Turkish Colony Of Greece (Ftcog)
> > Ilinden the SLAVOSKOPIAN
>
>
> Macedonians had always Greek names,
Funny that Ilinden, a *genuine* Macedonian, has no Greek name but a
Macedonian name.
Like milion other Macedonians in the entire world, including toponyms, etc.
I am afraid that your *non-Macedonian*, Greek Macedonian names will be quite
few. A dozen or so.
Enough for taking them to bed.
Have a good night, Jovanche-boy!!
WolfWolf
The European
Ilinden
He is a nincompoop, nitwit, a buffoon, a coprophiliac,also we have another
buffoon from Australia his name is Dorian Istok the doorknob who uses profane
language to his sister.
Ilinden
WolfWolf
"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3DA9E425...@sympatico.ca...
> Wolf Wolf , Jovanche is discombobulated very badly and he talks nonsense.
> He is a nincompoop, nitwit, a buffoon, a coprophiliac,also we have another
> buffoon from Australia his name is Dorian Istok the doorknob who uses
profane
> language to his sister.
> Ilinden
To his sister??????
How disgusting!!!!
WolfWolf
The European
> WolfWolf wrote:
>
> > "Yannis" <mak...@vip.gr> wrote in message
Ilinden
Ilinden
Yannis
> Wolf Wolf , Jovanche is discombobulated very badly and he talks nonsense.
> He is a nincompoop, nitwit, a buffoon, a coprophiliac,also we have another
> buffoon from Australia his name is Dorian Istok the doorknob who uses profane
> language to his sister.
> Ilinden
Sister Ilindenova, kisses !!
Tell to this ZarZar where Alalkomenai is, will you ?
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
> Wolf Wolf, I hear Dorian Istok was in Jail in Australia for using
cannibis.
> Ilinden
Wow!!
Why didn't he go for that to Amsterdam?!?
How can one be so flummoxed?!?!?
Dirty Harry
> Another True Story:
> I also know of a Greek guy who married a FYROMian girl. I am not sure which
> part of FYROM they are from, I never cared to ask. But after the marriage,
> the grandfather of the girl started talking GREEK to the Greek guy. So they
> are having dinner. Her whole family knows only Bulgarian and English. The
> girl's father and mother only know Bulgarian. And here is the guy speaking
> GREEK with the grandfather. The parents never knew he knew Greek!!! He had
> to hide his nationality even from his own kids for over around 40-50 years.
> It shows there were many Greeks left in FYROM that were forgotten, and
> forced to accept Tito's version of Bulgarian. The assimilation policy in
> FYROM was very violent. It is not easy to turn proud Bulgarians into proud
> Yugoslavs hating Bulgarians. Jail terms and 50 years constant propaganda, a
> Church created by an atheist do help. But do you have to follow Tito's
> propaganda?
One problem. My little vignette is TRUE (the names are being withheld
to protect the innocent), yours is not. My relative's father-in-law
is adamant that he is a Macedonian yet he speaks no Macedonian (not to
my knowledge, anyway) and is loyal to the Greek state (I talked to him
myself.) The elderly people in his village in the 1930's and 1940's
did speak Macedonian, however, (although the degree of loyalty to the
Greek state is hard to judge for obvious reasons).
Tell me, what conclusions should an unbiased observer draw from this?
Have a nice day
WolfWolf
Bre Jovanche, we told you already.
Don't you know it by yourself - or don't you believe it?
Alalkomenai (Cyclopean Walls) is a ruined site in Boeotia, Central Greece.
Some loose stones on the ground - and that's it. Nothing special.
I remember it very vaguely.
Now tell us - where is the 'Malta Kiosk'??
Your obtuse answer is appreciated.
WolfWolf
The European
Dirty Harry
WolfWolf,
Is Istok his real surname? Yes? I have a cousin with the same
surname. Her family is Macedonian, her entire family. Could I thus
be related to Mr. Dorian the Grkoman? If the answer is in the
affirmative, then please do me the favor and hang ME from the tower.
Thanks.
WolfWolf
Harry, he names himself 'Dorian West', but only for cosmetics, in order to
cover his ugly, triangular-shaped face.
In reality, and in some lucid moments he has confessed it, he is 'East' -
hence in Macedonian 'Istok', to make him feel what it means to be what he
claims to be (Macedonian).
His origins are undefined, just a mongrel of any place of the world, and he
wouldn't be more than just a pitiable creature - if it wasn't for his
profane language and his evil mind. That's why he must go up to the crown of
the White Tower (may Allah be merciful with him).
Biologically, I don't think that there is any link with you or your cousin,
except from the very origin of life on earth.
Still science is examining the remote possibility that he's a kind of
erratic extraterrestrian. Erratic yes, but ET??
WolfWolf
The European
Yannis
> Bre Jovanche, we told you already.
> Don't you know it by yourself - or don't you believe it?
> Alalkomenai (Cyclopean Walls) is a ruined site in Boeotia, Central Greece.
> Some loose stones on the ground - and that's it. Nothing special.
> I remember it very vaguely.
> WolfWolf
> The European
Bre Zarzar,
Why this name is identical to an ancient Macedonian city name build in FYROPM ?
Why Gortys and Bottiaia are identical names in Southern Greece and Macedonia?
Coincidence ?
Why Macedonian Alalkomenai is named after the name of Alalkomenis an old Beotian
hero ??
Why today's SlavoSkopians did not restore the city name in FYROPM ? Aren't they
Macedonians ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
Bre Jovanche,
Why does New York not get again his original name (Nieuwe Amsterdam), under
which it was founded by Peter Stuyvesant?
After all, today there are much more people of Dutch descent living in and
around Manhattan than initially.
Care to debate why no Dutch government has ever set any claim on that place?
Care to discuss why - while we are using the abbreviation 'NY' - nobody
*forces* us to do so, and nobody objects against the full name 'New York',
neither the major of the English city of York, nor that of New York Mills in
Minnesota?
Only you want to force us to something which is outside your jurisdiction,
Jovanche.
Don't you see that you're quite alone here, quite limited, and with few
chances of success, decreasing from day to day, Jovanche?
Now you're telling us that somebody wants to steal you something, but you're
neither at risk nor can you give any credible circumstantial evidence for
such assertion.
There's simply the fact that next to your country exists a neighbour which
has a name, by his own sovereignty, with partial identity to another entity,
of different nature and with different location, inside your borders. There
are also other Jovanches - have you ever disputed them their name?
That's quite simple to accept and to understand, Jovanche. There is no need
for turning around old stones, making incredible historical, linguistical,
legal and political contortions and engaging in endless discussions. The
existing facts will neither disappear nor will they change any inch.
Now don't make your life more difficult as it is, Jovanche. We have really
other targets and concerns in life which are much more important. Be
constructive and accept your neighbour as Republic of Macedonia.
WolfWolf
The European
tom
> One Ftcogian got married with a Grkoman our Tom from Sveta Petka, Tom's
parents
> are Macedonian and Tom is a Ftcogian or Grkoman , shame on you bre Grkoman
> prodadena dusha.
the answer is:
My friend Eric allways call people like you slaninary now i know why
George S. Tsapanos
>When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
>Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
>Macedonian.
>What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
>and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
>the rights and cultures of its minorities?>
DIRTY SKOPIAN YOU ARE LYING ONE MORE TIME.
AS FOR YOUR MINORITY...........THEY ARE 4,951 STRONG.
CHEERS !
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
George S. Tsapanos
>One Ftcogian got married with a Grkoman our Tom from Sveta Petka, Tom's
>parents>are Macedonian and Tom is a Ftcogian or Grkoman , shame on you bre
Grkoman>prodadena dusha.>
SKOPIAN
Abre Vugaroman, what language are you speaking ?
The one created for the Moravian SLAVS?
Ftu..........ftu.............you SHAMELESS SKOPIAN, and you call yourself
a.........Makedonian?
Oust.....abre magare go to the STABLES and take your language with you.
tommy
like the Islanders, Pelloponesians etc are a subset of Greek nationhood. We
are a people. We have different culture and history from the rest of Greece.
Like We Macedonians were invaded 4 times by Bulgarians in the last 100
years, the rest of Greece was invaded not once. We are a people. WE EXIST.
You deny we exist cause you're a racist. Thessaloniki was never conquered by
Bulgarians during the middle ages. So those Macedonians were never wiped out
by your Bulgarians. We have survived Roman, Bulgarian, Ottoman, German
occupation till this day.
And my story is True. I have not spoken with the grandfather himself, but I
heard the story from the Greek guy and his West Bulgarian wife. The
assimiliation policy of FYROM in creating Bulgarians of Yugoslavia into a
new phantom nation was indeed violent.
We Macedonians were always Greek. Either Tito likes it or not.
tommy makendonos.
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Yannis
> which it was founded by Peter Stuyvesant?
Because none asked it. Why no Bavarian would let any Czech be named Bavarian ?
> After all, today there are much more people of Dutch descent living in and
> around Manhattan than initially.
> Care to debate why no Dutch government has ever set any claim on that place?
> Care to discuss why - while we are using the abbreviation 'NY' - nobody
> *forces* us to do so, and nobody objects against the full name 'New York',
> neither the major of the English city of York, nor that of New York Mills in
> Minnesota?
Because all these names are unimportant. Ask SlavoSkopians about Macedonian
name.
> Only you want to force us to something which is outside your jurisdiction,
> Jovanche.
> Don't you see that you're quite alone here, quite limited, and with few
> chances of success, decreasing from day to day, Jovanche?
My tribal name was Macedonian from -12c at least. You and your SlavoSkopian
friends have to respect it.
Well, Greeks, being the consciousness of the World are often alone. But they
were so far almost always right.
Anyway did you have the amount you will pay to Titina Loizidou ?
> Now you're telling us that somebody wants to steal you something, but you're
> neither at risk nor can you give any credible circumstantial evidence for
> such assertion.
My tribe derived the Greek term Macedonian from its Greek dic to be its name
from -12c at least. This Greek tribe is still living in Macedonia, speaking
Greek, spreading Greek Language and Civilization to the World and the only thing
it wants is to be clearly differentiated from those SlavoSkopians. Do you think
that my tribe can change its name after 30c ??
> There's simply the fact that next to your country exists a neighbour which
> has a name, by his own sovereignty, with partial identity to another entity,
> of different nature and with different location, inside your borders. There
> are also other Jovanches - have you ever disputed them their name?
How do you distinguish those Jovanches ?
> That's quite simple to accept and to understand, Jovanche. There is no need
> for turning around old stones, making incredible historical, linguistical,
> legal and political contortions and engaging in endless discussions. The
> existing facts will neither disappear nor will they change any inch.
You asked to prove my ancestry. Well I 'm a Macedonian that is doing what
Macedonians were always doing: Spread Greek Language and Civilization to the
World.
> Now don't make your life more difficult as it is, Jovanche. We have really
> other targets and concerns in life which are much more important. Be
> constructive and accept your neighbour as Republic of Macedonia.
> WolfWolf
> The European
Bre Zarzar,
Why do you bother to intervene to this discuss while " you have other targets
and concerns..."
Did you slip the night from 13 to 14 October ? ( I know you don't: You sent 95
!!! messages to alt.new.macedonia in continued times from 13/10/2002 0:33 to
14/10/2002 10:39 that is in 34 hours !!! ). How much hate against Greece is
inside you to be spread brew perisan ?? When you Turks learnt to live in order
to be able teach a Greek how to live bre kior ?
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
>
> ? "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote:
> > Bre Jovanche,
> > Why does New York not get again his original name (Nieuwe Amsterdam),
under
> > which it was founded by Peter Stuyvesant?
>
> Because none asked it.
Irrelevant. Why did you ask at all?
> Why no Bavarian would let any Czech be named Bavarian ?
See below - no need for contortions.
>
> > After all, today there are much more people of Dutch descent living in
and
> > around Manhattan than initially.
> > Care to debate why no Dutch government has ever set any claim on that
place?
> > Care to discuss why - while we are using the abbreviation 'NY' - nobody
> > *forces* us to do so, and nobody objects against the full name 'New
York',
> > neither the major of the English city of York, nor that of New York
Mills in
> > Minnesota?
>
> Because all these names are unimportant. Ask SlavoSkopians about
Macedonian
> name.
Is population the criteria? Or popularity? I bet New York beats Macedonia.
BTW - There are no SSkopians ...
>
> > Only you want to force us to something which is outside your
jurisdiction,
> > Jovanche.
> > Don't you see that you're quite alone here, quite limited, and with few
> > chances of success, decreasing from day to day, Jovanche?
>
> My tribal name was Macedonian from -12c at least. You and your
SlavoSkopian
> friends have to respect it.
> Well, Greeks, being the consciousness of the World are often alone. But
they
> were so far almost always right.
Today, nations-state are disappearing. Tribes have disappeared much earlier.
> Anyway did you have the amount you will pay to Titina Loizidou ?
Is that person Greek or Macedonian?
> > Now you're telling us that somebody wants to steal you something, but
you're
> > neither at risk nor can you give any credible circumstantial evidence
for
> > such assertion.
>
> My tribe derived the Greek term Macedonian from its Greek dic to be its
name
> from -12c at least. This Greek tribe is still living in Macedonia,
speaking
> Greek, spreading Greek Language and Civilization to the World and the only
thing
> it wants is to be clearly differentiated from those SlavoSkopians. Do you
think
> that my tribe can change its name after 30c ??
Irrelevant. There aren't any tribes,
> > There's simply the fact that next to your country exists a neighbour
which
> > has a name, by his own sovereignty, with partial identity to another
entity,
> > of different nature and with different location, inside your borders.
There
> > are also other Jovanches - have you ever disputed them their name?
>
> How do you distinguish those Jovanches ?
I have only contact with one. Others are irrelevant.
> > That's quite simple to accept and to understand, Jovanche. There is no
need
> > for turning around old stones, making incredible historical,
linguistical,
> > legal and political contortions and engaging in endless discussions. The
> > existing facts will neither disappear nor will they change any inch.
>
>
> You asked to prove my ancestry. Well I 'm a Macedonian that is doing what
> Macedonians were always doing: Spread Greek Language and Civilization to
the
> World.
Where did I ask you to prove your ancestry?
But I may ask you for your citizenship, as given by your authorities.
It is either Greek - or Macedonian.
So which colour is yours?
> > Now don't make your life more difficult as it is, Jovanche. We have
really
> > other targets and concerns in life which are much more important. Be
> > constructive and accept your neighbour as Republic of Macedonia.
> > WolfWolf
> > The European
>
>
> Bre Zarzar,
> Why do you bother to intervene to this discuss while " you have other
targets
> and concerns..."
Do you have other targets in life than tribes and contortions?
> Did you slip the night from 13 to 14 October ? ( I know you don't: You
sent 95
> !!! messages to alt.new.macedonia in continued times from 13/10/2002 0:33
to
> 14/10/2002 10:39 that is in 34 hours !!! ).
Did you count it right?
I had a project running, and I posted in intervals.
> How much hate against Greece is
> inside you to be spread brew perisan ??
Where are you seeing hate?
Did I perhaps use profane language like your buddy Dorian Istok?
> When you Turks learnt to live in order
> to be able teach a Greek how to live bre kior ?
I wrote you as European.
If you belong to this community, get used to be asked from left or right
from time to time.
WolfWolf
The European
Dirty Harry
> I Too am Macedonian. I speak no Bulgarian and am a proud Greek.
What did your ancestors speak. If they also spoke Greek then you
cannot be a Macedonian as there were very few Greeks in Macedonia
until the 1920's when Turkey dumped its Greek refuse into occupied
Macedonia.
Have a nice day.
Yannis
> > Because all these names are unimportant. Ask SlavoSkopians about
> > Macedonian name.
> Is population the criteria? Or popularity? I bet New York beats Macedonia.
> BTW - There are no SSkopians ...
SlavoSkopians: the Slav speaking inhabitants of FYROPM shamelessly attempting to
pass as Macedonians.
Population ? No. It is the fact that we Macedonian don't want to share our
tribal name with anyone else.
> > Anyway did you have the amount you will pay to Titina Loizidou ?
> Is that person Greek or Macedonian?
She is Cypriot. Do you have the amount ?
> Where did I ask you to prove your ancestry?
When you set in in doubt.
> But I may ask you for your citizenship, as given by your authorities.
> It is either Greek - or Macedonian.
> So which colour is yours?
Macedonian. That is Greek.
> > Did you slip the night from 13 to 14 October ? ( I know you don't: You
> > sent 95!!! messages to alt.new.macedonia in continued times from 13/10/2002
0:33
> > to 14/10/2002 10:39 that is in 34 hours !!! ).
> Did you count it right?
No. If we add the post to soc.culture.greek the amount is 95+74=169 !! For
god's sake !
> I had a project running, and I posted in intervals.
:))) I know posting messages. Maybe you wrote posts earlier but you opened them
before sending them. So all night you were unsleeping in order to discharge
yourself from the cargo of your hate to anything Greek.
> > How much hate against Greece is
> > inside you to be spread brew perisan ??
>
> Where are you seeing hate?
:))) !! I 'm right when I say you 're kior, right ? Why no post of yours is
neutral ( not favorable !! ) for Greece or Greeks ?? Why ALL your posts minimize
or deplore Greece and Greeks ??
> I wrote you as European.
> If you belong to this community, get used to be asked from left or right
> from time to time.
> WolfWolf
> The European
Turk and European is so far a contradiction.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Dirty Harry
> our SKOPIAN FROM BULGAR ORIGINS WROTE:
>
> >One Ftcogian got married with a Grkoman our Tom from Sveta Petka, Tom's
> >parents>are Macedonian and Tom is a Ftcogian or Grkoman , shame on you bre
> Grkoman>prodadena dusha.>
>
> SKOPIAN
> Abre Vugaroman, what language are you speaking ?
>
> The one created for the Moravian SLAVS?
>
> Ftu..........ftu.............you SHAMELESS SKOPIAN, and you call yourself
> a.........Makedonian?
>
> Oust.....abre magare go to the STABLES and take your language with you.
Da ti ja ebam mater, grkomansko kopile. Go back to your loving
slavemasters that made you give up your language, your culture and
your identity. Go spill some more of your family's blood for them.
They have done so much for you, idiot! lololool
Have a nice day.
Dirty Harry
> the DIRTY SKOPIAN wrote:
>
> >When he was in the Greek army, he was stationed in
> >Western Macedonia, he said the population there largely spoke
> >Macedonian.
>
> >What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
> >and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
> >the rights and cultures of its minorities?>
>
> DIRTY SKOPIAN YOU ARE LYING ONE MORE TIME.
>
> AS FOR YOUR MINORITY...........THEY ARE 4,951 STRONG.
>
> CHEERS !
No, I do not lie. Ever. It hurts your credibility, but you wouldn't
know what that is, either, would you?
Have a nice day.
Dirty Harry
Got it--the translation didn't click right away. Regardless, Dorian
is just another Grkoman doing the bidding for his slavemasters. When
his slavemasters are forced to give up occupation, him and his kind
will be taught a lesson they will never forget.
Have a nice day.
tommy
80000 identified themselves as Greek. Today that number should be more.
Greece due to Serbian-Greek friendship motivated by fear from Bulgaria,
Turkey decided to forget about them, and let Serbia do what they wanted.
Like Greek politicians did recently to the Greek minority in Albania. But
there are still some who can speak Greek even in Skopia today and hide.
Cause Yugoslavia was a communist not a free state.
In any case you understand Bulgarian and Bulgarians understand FYROMian.
Niether understand Macedonian ancient coins while I can. That makes me, not
you a Macedonian. We have being calling ourselves Macedonians for 3000 years
uniterupted. Macedonians never disapeared. Thessaloniki was never conquered
by Bulgarians-sucked in.
And unlike Tito's propaganda Greeks formed the majority of Macedonia. The
Greek population fought against VRMO. In Macedonia there are plenty of
musuems showing the attrocities the VRMO did on our ancestors. And we
volunteered in the Greek army like your people volunteered in the Bulgarian
army. But because we were more we won more-sucked in.
Of cause you do not allow me the right to my identity. That is because you
are a facist. Why don't you bring in the tanks and teach me who I really am.
tommy makendonos, Vulgaro-ktonos.
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Ilinden
Paraskevi the Turkogreki kumovi named it this Macedonian village in 1926.
Ilinden the Macedonian
Ilinden
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
WolfWolf
> "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote:
> > > Because all these names are unimportant. Ask SlavoSkopians about
> > > Macedonian name.
> > Is population the criteria? Or popularity? I bet New York beats
Macedonia.
> > BTW - There are no SSkopians ...
>
> SlavoSkopians: the Slav speaking inhabitants of FYROPM shamelessly
attempting to
> pass as Macedonians.
There aren't any SSkopians.
Define things by their proper name, if you want to enter into discourse.
> Population ? No. It is the fact that we Macedonian don't want to share
our
> tribal name with anyone else.
There are no tribes. Hence no tribal names.
> > > Anyway did you have the amount you will pay to Titina Loizidou ?
> > Is that person Greek or Macedonian?
>
> She is Cypriot. Do you have the amount ?
OT
> > Where did I ask you to prove your ancestry?
>
> When you set in in doubt.
I never set it in doubt, nor did I ask you.
You are mentioning "Greece" in your signature.
Hence you are Greek.
Why should I doubt?
>
> > But I may ask you for your citizenship, as given by your authorities.
> > It is either Greek - or Macedonian.
> > So which colour is yours?
>
>
> Macedonian. That is Greek.
No, it is not. Macedonian citizenship (and that was the question) is only
granted by the Republic of Macedonia.
> > > Did you slip the night from 13 to 14 October ? ( I know you don't:
You
> > > sent 95!!! messages to alt.new.macedonia in continued times from
13/10/2002
> 0:33
> > > to 14/10/2002 10:39 that is in 34 hours !!! ).
> > Did you count it right?
>
> No. If we add the post to soc.culture.greek the amount is 95+74=169 !!
For
> god's sake !
You're still not right. Not even near. But that's OT too.
> > I had a project running, and I posted in intervals.
>
> :))) I know posting messages. Maybe you wrote posts earlier but you
opened them
> before sending them. So all night you were unsleeping in order to
discharge
> yourself from the cargo of your hate to anything Greek.
I don't see hate. I asked you already where you are seeing hate.
A proper answer is still missing.
> > > How much hate against Greece is
> > > inside you to be spread brew perisan ??
> >
> > Where are you seeing hate?
>
> :))) !! I 'm right when I say you 're kior, right ? Why no post of yours
is
> neutral ( not favorable !! ) for Greece or Greeks ?? Why ALL your posts
minimize
> or deplore Greece and Greeks ??
I am expressing facts.
Hate is an emotional state.
Both things are different.
If you don't like facts which aren't favourable for you, change them, or
accomodate yourself if they can't be changed.
But don't blame those who mention facts.
> > I wrote you as European.
> > If you belong to this community, get used to be asked from left or right
> > from time to time.
> > WolfWolf
> > The European
>
>
> Turk and European is so far a contradiction.
Who said that?
EU institutions are diametrally opposed to that.
Verheugen: "Turkey's path towards the EU is clear" (today's press - nearly
my words)
Recent web poll among Greeks: >50% in favour of Turkey becoming EU member
Greek PM and several ministers are supporting Turkey's EU bid
Even your supreme religious dignatary, Patriarch Bartholomeos, said now:
"Turkey belongs to an integrated Europe".
So you have no choice than to follow him - otherwise you will be
excomulgated.
WolfWolf
The European
Dirty Harry
This is utter bull-shit not worthy of a response. However, as one of
these so-called "lost Greeks" (just ask the idiot who's proud of his
family's bloodshed on behalf of his slavemasters) let me tell you one
thing. There is no question that the majority of the Slavic speakers
of the day looked to Bulgaria as their savior and looked kindly upon
Bulgarian intervention. They were wrong. Bulgarian carried on the
same assimilationist policies as the Serbs and Greeks, albiet not as
brutally. The commies weren't any better, but what the hell, we got
our own motherland out of the deal. What did you get from your
slavemasters? I don't like the current results, but at least it was
better to get something out of the deal rather than NOTHING--like you
guys did.
A true Macedonian has no love and no need for any "saviors" anymore.
Look at your past. Are you proud to pledge your loyalty to the people
who changed your names and took away your language, your culture, your
right to be educated in your mother tongue and then has brainwashed
you into thinking no such thing exists?
This kind of state is worthy of no one's loyalty--unless, that is, if
you are an idiot like Cunnilyngos and his ancestors. If he were a
jew, he would be fighting for the nazis. What an idiot!
Have a nice day.
Yannis
> Grkoman I wait for your answer, Sveta Petka or Agia Paraskevi, don't gorget
Agia
> Paraskevi the Turkogreki kumovi named it this Macedonian village in 1926.
> Ilinden the Macedonian
No Tom, do not answer to Ilindenova's question until she answers to the question
below:
Amyntaion or Sorovic, Vevi or Banitsa, Olympias or Rakita, Axios or Vardar, Keli
or Gornichevo, Liti or Aivatovo, Filotas or Kozhusany, Ptolemais or Kajlar,
Volvi or Besik, Argos Orestikon or Hrupishcha, Vermion or Selo, Asiros or
Gjuvezn, Idomeni or Sehovo, Evropos or Fustani, Halastra or Kulakija, Eginion or
Libanovo, ....... or ......., ........?????
You pitiful SlavoSkopian propagandist, you changed the meaning of the term
Macedonian and now you 're wondering if Amyntaion or Sorovic is Macedonian !!
COME ON SLAVOSKOPIANS !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Yannis
> The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
> Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
> about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
> Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
> traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
> Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
> nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
> Florakis, he speaks the truth!
LIAR !!
Harilaos Florakis does not say that these people are Macedonians because he know
what Macedonian means. He knows that they speak Slav and that Macedonians never
were Slav or Slav speaking people. He knows that Amyntaion is a Macedonian name
but Sorovic is NOT !.
He just does not know how to call them. Well, there is a good answer until they
found a proper name for themselves: SlavoSkopians. If this people really want to
be Macedonians let me tell you how to achieve it: Let them speak Greek and
spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World just like Macedonians were
always doing.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
George S. Tsapanos
>No, I do not lie. Ever. It hurts your credibility, but you wouldn't
>know what that is, either, would you?>
DIRTY SKOPIAN
hahahahahaha everybody knows who I am and I say and the same for you.
So.........let the board decide.
George S. Tsapanos
>Grkoman I wait for your answer, Sveta Petka or Agia Paraskevi, don't gorget
>Agia>Paraskevi the Turkogreki kumovi named it this Macedonian village in
1926.>
SKOPIAN
Abre............what kind of a saint is "Paraskeyh" ?
Do the SLAVOBULGARS and their brothers the TATAROMOGGOLIANS like yourself have
any such saint?
Did those SLAVOBULGARS come up with that name by themselves OR
maybe.........they found the name already in place since St. Paraskeyh is the
ETHNIC SAINT of the VLACH-speaking populations ?
ONE MORE PROOF that before the SLAV SERBS and the BULGARS, there were in
PELAGONIA VLACHS, descendants of the Makedonians.
Yes or not abre torlack ?
George S. Tsapanos
>Da ti ja ebam mater, grkomansko kopile. Go back to your loving
>slavemasters that made you give up your language, your culture and
>your identity. Go spill some more of your family's blood for them.
>They have done so much for you, idiot! lololool>
DIRTY SKOPIAN
NOBODY made us give up our language and our traditions.
Simply we returned home.
And the blood, OUR BLOOD, it was for OUR LANDS, something that YOU........the
SKOPIANS never even considered it as worthy fighting for.
Dirty Harry
> the DIRTY SKOPIAN wrote:
>
> >Da ti ja ebam mater, grkomansko kopile. Go back to your loving
> >slavemasters that made you give up your language, your culture and
> >your identity. Go spill some more of your family's blood for them.
> >They have done so much for you, idiot! lololool>
>
> DIRTY SKOPIAN
>
> NOBODY made us give up our language and our traditions.
> Simply we returned home.
> And the blood, OUR BLOOD, it was for OUR LANDS, something that YOU........the
> SKOPIANS never even considered it as worthy fighting for.
If you had spilled blood for YOUR lands, you would have been living in
a latin speaking state, a homeland for the Vlachs. You have no such
thing. You are simply carrying water for your TurkoGrekkki masters in
the south. Yowsa massa. Again, anyone who would spill their own
blood, or their family's blood for their occupiers, their
slavemasters, is an IDIOT. I wouldn't, no way any day.
At least if you hadn't SOLD OUT your latin language, you would be
communicating in a worthwhile tongue. Widely spoken, and also
important to commerce. Instead, you traded it in for a worthless
provincial idiom. A an ugly-sounding, dead language which only
romanticists and historians have a passion for. a You traded in a
Buick for a Yugo! Your kind are simply idiots.
Dirty Harry
> the DIRTY SKOPIAN wrote:
>
> >No, I do not lie. Ever. It hurts your credibility, but you wouldn't
> >know what that is, either, would you?>
>
> DIRTY SKOPIAN
>
> hahahahahaha everybody knows who I am and I say and the same for you.
> So.........let the board decide.
The information I post is usually from independent western sources.
The information you post emanates from Solun, Athens, Sofia or
Belgrade.
You're right, let the people decide.
Have a nice day.
tommy
Buglaria invaded 3 times Macedonia in the last 100 years and the Bulgarians
of Yugoslavia invaded once too. Macedonians stood up. We fought against you.
Isn't four times SAYING NO ENOUGH? So piss off.
A. You DO NOT represent us. Can you take a hint when you are not wanted.
Shoo.
B. We Macedonians were always Greek.
C. You are Tito's brainwashed Bulgarians, that feel superior to other
Bulgarians, because you have more Turkish and Serbian words.
D. Change your name to something like Vardar, or TitoBulgarians. Or else you
are finished.
E. The assimilation policy of FYROM to turn you Bulgarians into Yugoslavs
hating Bulgarians was very violent.
tommy makendonos
tommy
pig
Dorian West
hero. You are a nigger-Mongoloid, Use a name like Bruce Lee or Samuel
Jackson.
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
> "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
news:<aobf86$f14$1...@nntp-m01.news.aol.com>...
> > "Dorian West" <west...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3da93a75$0$12762$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > WHEN I WENT TO MACEDONIA I SAW NO
> > > TRIANGLE-HEADED DWARFS WITH SLIT-EYES AND YELLOW SKIN.
> >
> > That's because you used no mirror.
> > Are you so ashamed of yourself??
> >
> > WolfWolf
> > The European
>
>
> Ashamed of being a "Slav", all the "Proto-Bulgarian" wannabe Greeks
> were stupid enough to be brainwashed with self-hatred by their
> occupying masters. However, the Slavic world has vast natural
> resources and highly-educated people (only shitty governments that
> have been holding them back). Give them one generation and watch
> these grkomans stampede to be first in line to emphasize their Slavic
> roots once again.
>
> Have a nice day.
Dorian West
avenge all the Greeks killed in the Mongolslav's FAILED attempts to annex
Macedonia. Smashing triangle heads with a rifle butt would be an enjoyable
pastime.
"tommy" <tro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3dad252b$0$23173$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Dirty Harry
> Let 'em bring on the tanks. This would be a carte blanche for Greeks to
> avenge all the Greeks killed in the Mongolslav's FAILED attempts to annex
> Macedonia. Smashing triangle heads with a rifle butt would be an enjoyable
> pastime.
There is no question that we will not be able to defend. But do you
really want 2 million potential terrorists inside your borders
reminding the assimilated Macedonians who they really are every day?
I think not.
Have a nice day.
Dirty Harry
> Wannabe is evident in your internet name - Dirty Harry is a white mane's
> hero. You are a nigger-Mongoloid, Use a name like Bruce Lee or Samuel
> Jackson.
Last time I looked at Athens or Chios, they looked several shades
darker than me. They are the masters you sold out to.
Have a nice day.
Yannis
.........................................
> There is no question that we will not be able to defend. But do you
> really want 2 million potential terrorists inside your borders
> reminding the assimilated Macedonians who they really are every day?
> I think not.
> Have a nice day.
We don't want 2 million SlavoSkopians to be terrorized by you propagandists.
If you let those SlavoSkopian to learn free they will easily realize that
Macedonians were always Greeks and they will be given the opportunity to become
Macedonians. The rest of them will feel free to declare their bulgarism or
serbism or ...
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Bucephalus
your animal kind, isn't it?!!!!!
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Dorian West
and Mongoloid hair. Not to forget penguin gaited.
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Dorian West
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
tommy
sacred name Macedonians is causing so much animosity. You expect us to be
offened and accept it? Get rid of the cold war name imposed by Tito on you,
or True Macedonians will get rid of you.
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:590ecbd6.02101...@posting.google.com...
Dirty Harry
by Dr. Eugene Borza, PhD
Professor of Ancient History
Pennsylvania State University
......
Finally, a look at contemporary Balkan politics. The Greek government firmly
maintains that the ancient Macedonians were ethnic Greeks, and that any
claim by the new Republic of Macedonia (The Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia) to the name "Macedonia" and the symbols of ancient Macedonia is
tantamount to an expropriation of Greek history. Moreover, it is claimed
that there is no such thing as a distinct Slavic Macedonian identity and
language separate from Bulgaria and Serbia.
I shall review the evidence for the existence of a modern Macedonian
ethnicity with reference to my recent work in a Macedonian ethnic community
in Steelton, Pennsylvania. Both the gravestones in a local cemetery and US
census reports from the early twentieth century provide evidence that
émigrés from Macedonia who lived and died in Steelton in the early twentieth
century considered themselves to be distinct from their Serbian and
Bulgarian neighbours.
.......
"tommy" <tro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3daed6a0$0$23170$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Dorian West
these conclusions, come from? You pigs expect Greeks to sit down and
acquiesce at your terrorist plots. Are you out of your triangle-headed
minds?
"Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aon3l9$269$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
Dirty Harry
> Who is this loser and which Slavic country did the whore, who fucked him to
> these conclusions, come from? You pigs expect Greeks to sit down and
> acquiesce at your terrorist plots. Are you out of your triangle-headed
> minds?
Dr. Borza is a well-respected scholar in the field of ancient history.
He is an expert in ancient Greek, Macedonian and Roman history.
He is neither of Macedonian nor Greek extraction. However, to the
extent that it matters, I beleive he is an American of Hungarian
extraction (i.e. he has no axe to grind concerning this issue).
Have a nice day.
June R Harton
You may think you are clever troll, but you are not at all. You made exactly
the
case that the ancient Macedonians were indeed Greeks, and that is going on
file, fool.
----- Original Message -----
From: "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net>
Newsgroups: alt.languages.macedonian,alt.news.fyrom,alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: True Story about the SLAVOSKOPIANS from the FYROPM
Bre Jovanche, we told you already.
Don't you know it by yourself - or don't you believe it?
Alalkomenai (Cyclopean Walls) is a ruined site in Boeotia, Central Greece.
Some loose stones on the ground - and that's it. Nothing special.
I remember it very vaguely.
WolfWolf
The European
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yannis" <mak...@vip.gr>
Newsgroups:
alt.culture.fyrom,alt.culture.macedonia,alt.culture.macedonia-is-greek,alt.n
ews.fyrom,alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: True Story about the SLAVOSKOPIANS from the FYROPM
Bre Zarzar,
Why this name is identical to an ancient Macedonian city name build in
FYROPM ?
Why Gortys and Bottiaia are identical names in Southern Greece and
Macedonia?
Coincidence ?
Why Macedonian Alalkomenai is named after the name of Alalkomenis an old
Beotian
hero ??
Why today's SlavoSkopians did not restore the city name in FYROPM ? Aren't
they
Macedonians ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Well done, Yannis!
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
> What does this tell you about the indigenous population of Macedonia
> and about how much respect the so-called cradle of democracy respects
> the rights and cultures of its minorities?
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
Folks, here is the real Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And here is some real history of the area:
Encyclopedia Britania 1911
Š 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
MACEDONIA
BIBLI0GRAPHY.—Jewitt and Hope, Corporation Plaic and Insignia of
Office,
&c. (2 vols., 1895); J. R. Garstin, Irish State and Civic Maces, &c.
(1898); J. Paton, Scottish Historyand Life (1902); J. H. Buck, Old
Plate
(1903), pp. 124—140; Cripps, Old English Plate (9th ed., 1906),
pp.
394—404; E. Alfred Jones, Old Plate at the Tower of London
(1908); ed., “
Some Historic Silver Maces,” Burlington Magazine (Dec. 1908).
(E. A. J.)
snip
In Salonica, Serres, Kavala, Castoria, and
other towns in southern Macedonia the Hellenic element is strong; in
the northern towns it is insignIficant, except at Melnik, which is
almost exclusively Greek. The Greek rural population extends from the
Thessalian frontier to Castoria and Verria (Beroea); it occupies the
whole Chalcidian peninsula and both banks of the lower Strymon from
Serres to the sea, and from Nigrita on the west to Pravishta on the
east; there are also numerous Greek villages in the Kavala district.
The Mahommedan Greeks, known as Valachides, occupy a
considerable tract in the upper Bistritza valley near Grevena and
Liapsista.
Also
The Slavs ...., but their great immigration took place in the 6th and
7th centuries. They overran .........driving ....the latinized population
of Macedonia into the highland districts, such as Pindus, Agrapha
and Olympus.
And, thus, the Latinized real Upper Macedonian Greeks are the Greek
Vlach then!
So, troll, you were saying?
:)
June R Harton
> In reality, and in some lucid moments he has confessed it, he is 'East' -
> hence in Macedonian 'Istok',
Bulgarian, troll.
Your knowledge is completely inadequate for you to be posting here.
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:RWMs9.263$uW.11...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
> news:aocvdv$e62$1...@nntp-m01.news.aol.com...
> > In reality, and in some lucid moments he has confessed it, he is
'East' -
> > hence in Macedonian 'Istok',
>
>
> Bulgarian
MACEDONIAN
Keep your spam & falsehood out of here, troll, if you want to keep your ISP
account.
WolfWolf
The European
June R Harton
> "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:RWMs9.263$uW.11...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
> > news:aocvdv$e62$1...@nntp-m01.news.aol.com...
> > > In reality, and in some lucid moments he has confessed it, he is
> 'East' -
> > > hence in Macedonian 'Istok',
> > Bulgarian
> MACEDONIAN
Bulgarian, troll.
The real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And the proof of their Bulgarian heritage:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
June R Harton
> a latin speaking state, a homeland for the Vlachs. You have no such
> thing. You are simply carrying water for your TurkoGrekkki masters in
> the south. Yowsa massa. Again, anyone who would spill their own
> blood, or their family's blood for their occupiers, their
> slavemasters, is an IDIOT. I wouldn't, no way any day.
> At least if you hadn't SOLD OUT your latin language, you would be
> communicating in a worthwhile tongue. Widely spoken, and also
> important to commerce. Instead, you traded it in for a worthless
> provincial idiom. A an ugly-sounding, dead language which only
> romanticists and historians have a passion for. a You traded in a
> Buick for a Yugo! Your kind are simply idiots.
Bulgar, you cannnot break truth and will never get away with your
falsehoods above:
He is Greek like all the Greek Vlach, Bulgar, that is your answer:
Here, Bulgar:
"Did you know that an ANCIENT DORIC WORD exist in relation to sheep, exactly
as
it is written VLACHA (female Vlach) ?
The word in Doric is VLAXA for the Ionic VLHXH meaning "To bleat, of sheep
and
goats". I gave you the word VLHXH before but not the word VLAXA.
Now.........the word is clearly DORIC, and additionally PASTORAL of
connected
with SHEEP, which was the most ancient occupation of the people that on
later
days will be connected with the speaking of various Latin Idioms, and more
important, a certain merchants professional class.
So..........you name the time/eons and I'll tell you what the word Vlach
ment.
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula"."
And, here are links, Bulgar:
http://www.heraclea.org.mk/english/1.htm
http://www.heraclea.org.mk/english/eng2.htm
http://www.heraclea.org.mk/english/eng3.htm
Here is a reference too:
For fair use only
-----Original Message-----
From: George Tsapanos
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Date: Friday, December 25, 1998 6:03 AM
Subject: FR: LYNGOS RE: H KHLIDA ""ROMIOS"".
"" ............Thn exikoiosin pros thn Romhn kai ton Latinismon enisxye
kai h Xristianikh thriskolhpsia, epeidh to onoma E l l h n edhlou ton
opadon tou arxaiou thriskeymatos, ton eidololatrhn, en-w- to onoma
Romaios kai pan to mh E l l h n i k o n hto apo thriskeytikhs
apopseos oudeteron kai anekton. Dia touto oxi monon thn Latinikhn
glossan hneixento oi tote progonoi hmon, alla ekollhsan ektote eis
to Ethnos mas kai thn DYSAPALLAKTON KHLIDA , to onoma ROMAIOI,
ROMIOI, to opoion tha eprepe n'apofeygomen EPIMONOS kai FANATIKOS,
analamvanontes to PATRION ELLHNIKON ONOMA HMON, kat' antithesin pros
tous Roumanous, oitines katefronhsan to ethnos ton os Dakoi kai to onoma
ths patridos ton Dakias, dia na krathsoun yperhfanos to onoma Romani,
oper edhlou politikhn ptosin kai yphkoothta kai tapeinosin kai exarthsin
ton ek ths Romhs palai.............""
Capital letters mine.
Regards to all.........
George Tsapanos----LYNGOS.
And, here, Bulgar:
From the 'Aromanians in the Balkans'
For fair use only.
"The Aromanians
..................today most historians agree that the
Aromanians are the last remnants of the Latin speaking population that
existed in the region since the incorporation of ancient Macedonia into the
Roman Empire in 148 B.C. The argument that the Aromanians might be in fact
Romanian colonists from the north, has been in recent years, refuted by
linguistic studies. There are linguistic differences between the two
dialects that point to a separation of Aromanian from Romanian around the
seventh century, the moment of the Slavic invasion. The Slavs, consequently,
have separated the two bodies of Latin speaking populations. The theory put
forward by Hungarian historians was refuted by archeological evidences that
stand proof of the Roman and later Romanian continuity north of Danube, even
after the Aurelian retreat from the province of Dacia in 271-73 A.D.
(Winnifrith, The Vlachs 74).
Many historians have also noted the fact that the territory inhabited today
by Aromanians is situated just south or along Via Egnatia (Winnifrith, The
Vlachs 68) the main road that once connected the capital of the Eastern
Roman Empire, Constantinople, with the capital of the Western Roman Empire,
Rome. The road was, therefore, heavily guarded by Roman troops. This may
also explain the presence of a Latin speaking population so far south, in an
area considered by most historians to have been Greek-speaking in those
times. "It was a characteristic of the Roman Empire that in the east
generally where Latin met Greek, Greek invariably prevailed" (Wace, 266).
And here:
"The translation is from LYNGOS, apologies for any mistakes, this is an
amateur's work.
I have posted before the origins of the the words used by the Hellenic and
Romanian Vlachs and I'll do it one more time in order to make few comments
regarding the Vlachs taken from Nikolaidi's Etymological Dictionary of the
Vlachian language.
Hellenic Vlach Language.................Romanian Vlach Language
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latin..............2,605 (39,1%).................3,562 (53,5%)
Greek............3,460 (52%).......................685 (8%)
Slav..................185 (0,26%).................1165 (17,5%)
Albanian.........150 (0.022).......................66 (0,099%)
Turkish.............--0--. ..................................295 (0.044%)
Magyar............--0--.......................................87
French.............--0--.....................................192
Uknown...........257......................................605
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total..............6657...................................6657
Done this lets have a talk.
The word VLACH in its earliest Medieval-Byzantine significance was
indicating the sheep-herders, and later the populations of various
professions, religions, etc.etc.
In the Hellenic Vlachian language they do exist plenty Ancient Hellenic
Words, that given the limited vocabulary of those times, and the
significance of these words, one can accept it as a proof that the previous
language of the Hellenic Vlachs, was the Ancient Hellenic-Makedonian
language."
And here:
"ETYMOLOGIC DICTIONARY OF THE AROMOUNIAN LANGUAGE By PAPAHAGI 1963. In it,
Papahagi divides the Aromounian words in three big groups.
1st). 7097 words of known etymology
2nd), 924 words of Balkan etymology
3rd). 1186 words of difficult or unknown etymology.
Total of words 9207 in comparison with 6657 by Nikolaidis.
From those 7097 words of known etymology we have according to their origins:
1628.............( 17,68%)...........LATIN
2534.............( 27,52%)...........GREEK
350..............( 3.8% )............ALBANIAN
577..............( 6.26%)...........OLD-SLAV,BULGARIAN, SERBIAN
1628.............( 17.59& )..........TURKISH
300..............( 3,25% )............ITALIAN
53..............( 0.57 %)............FRENCH
4..............( 0,04% )............SPANISH
4..............(0,04 % )............GERMAN
2..............(0,02 % )............ENGLISH
17.............. (0.18 %) ............ROUMANIAN
8...............( 0.08 %)............VARIOUS.
And of course I already gave you the 87 or so Homiric Words of the
Aromounian
language among the 2534 Greek ones, while we have ONLY 17 ROUMANIAN words.
Would you call it an original Greek language, or a.............
ROUMANIAN one?"
So, Bulgar, you were saying?
June R Harton
> > I Too am Macedonian. I speak no Bulgarian and am a proud Greek.
>
> What did your ancestors speak. If they also spoke Greek then you
> cannot be a Macedonian as there were very few Greeks in Macedonia
> until the 1920's when Turkey dumped its Greek refuse into occupied
> Macedonia.
Complete nonsense, Bulgar:
And here is the real area of Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And as far as the Greek speakers in the real Macedonia in say 1911,
read the following:
Encyclopedia Britania 1911
© 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
MACEDONIA
Also
It should also be mentioned that yes indeed national leanings in that time
period was NOT solely determined by language. The false Bulgarian numbers
included Bulgarian speakers that were Moslem who wanted nothing more
than to stay Turkish and included Bulgarian speakers who adamantly
fought against the Bulgarians procaliming their Hellenic identity, having
had
it previously subsumed by the Bulgarian church in the area for many
centuries
on and off. Also Bulgarian numbers in 'Macedonia' falsely did not count the
Greeks in real area of Southern Macedonia, as they invariable in their scam
only referred to the area that Russia had previously tried to create into
a Greater Bulgaria (in order to gain access to the Aegean area).
For real numbers in the area read the following:
The 1904-census of Hilmi Pasha for the people in Macedonia
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in some areas
of Macedonia lived:
Greeks Bulgarians
Vilaeti of Thessaloniki 373,227 207,317
Vilaeti of Monastiri 261,283 178,412
Santzaki of Scopje 13,452 172,735
According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in the area
of Macedonia lived:
423,000 or 41.71% Muslims (Turks and Albanians)
259,000 or 27.30% Greeks
178,000 or 18.81% Bulgarians
13,150 or 1.39% Serbs
73,000 or 7.72% others"
Figures are presented by Italian ethnologist Amadori Virgili.
THESSALONIKI VILAYET 1913
Servia Sandjak
GREEKS 119,466
MOSLEMS 80,702
WALLACHIANS 1,460
JEWS 43
MISCELLANEOUS 3
Salonica Sandjak
GREEKS 233,508
BULGARIANS 70,096
MOSLEMS 189,600
WALLACHIANS 3,928
JEWS 65,730
MISCELLANEOUS 2,314
Serres Sandjak
GREEKS 96,513
BULGARIANS 98,586
MOSLEMS 122,303
WALLACHIANS 980
JEWS 3,005
Drama Sandjak
GREEKS 47,852
BULGARIANS 2,120
MOSLEMS 124,100
Total
GREEKS 497,339
BULGARIANS 170,802
MOSLEMS 516,705
WALLACHIANS 6,368
JEWS 68,778
MISCELLANEOUS 2,317
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only
ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA
Rumelia
Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
The false propaganda that you repeat above is part of the
Fyromian scam. It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks
were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia by the
Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called
Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that time.
Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.
http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html
"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164
Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997
For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html
So you are speaking with forked-tongue, Bulgar, when you ignore
the true situation of the time and pretend that the whole area was
just Bulgarians.
June R Harton
> these so-called "lost Greeks"
Stop talking nonsense, Bulgar, you are the Fyrom Slavs are Bulgarians
and nothing more and nothing less:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
June R Harton
> Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians
> by Dr. Eugene Borza, PhD
> Professor of Ancient History
> Pennsylvania State University
firmly
> maintains that the ancient Macedonians were ethnic Greeks, and that any
> claim by the new Republic of Macedonia (The Former Yugoslav Republic of
> Macedonia) to the name "Macedonia" and the symbols of ancient Macedonia is
> tantamount to an expropriation of Greek history. Moreover, it is claimed
> that there is no such thing as a distinct Slavic Macedonian identity and
> language separate from Bulgaria and Serbia.
>
> I shall review the evidence for the existence of a modern Macedonian
> ethnicity with reference to my recent work in a Macedonian ethnic
community
> in Steelton, Pennsylvania. Both the gravestones in a local cemetery and US
> census reports from the early twentieth century provide evidence that
> émigrés from Macedonia who lived and died in Steelton in the early
twentieth
> century considered themselves to be distinct from their Serbian and
> Bulgarian neighbours.
Bwahhahahhahhahahhhahahhahhahha
What falsity!
June R Harton
No, he and Badian have been shown up as semi-educated fools:
And below, you may read real historians statements showing that
the ancient Macedonians were indeed Greek:
For fair use only:
The inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
Greek tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
the Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
spoke was among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities
with the Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion
of the Madeconians was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and
traditions were those found throughout the Greek world (Wells,
The Outline of History, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Glimpses of
World History).
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
"It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe
related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in the distant
north, they could not participate in the progress of civilization of the
Greek people that migrated southward...".
Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:
"A strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in
Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared
with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the
names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes
and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Greek race akin to the Dorians."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton publications, 1967.
"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
"These plains would be the envy of any Greek visitor who crossed their
southern border by the narrow vale of Tempe and the foot of Mount Olympus.
He would pass the frontier post of Heraclion, town of Heracles, and stop at
the harbour town of Dion, named after the Greek god Zeus, ancestor of the
Macedonian kings, and site of a yearly nine-day festival of the arts in
honour of Zeus and the nine Greek Muses. There he would walk through city
gates in a wall of brick, down the paved length of a sacred way, between the
theatre, gymnasiums and a temple with Doric pillars: suitably, the nearby
villages were linked with the myth of Orpheus, the famous bard of Greek
legend. He was still in a world of Greek gods and sacrifices, of Greek plays
and Greek language, though the natives might speak Greek with a northern
accent which hardened 'ch' into 'g'. 'th' into 'd' and pronounced King
Philip as 'Bilip'. Bearing on up the coast, he would find the plain no less
abundant and the towns more defiantly Greek."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", The Dial Press Publications, 1974
"In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their
language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names,
which are without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that
they did not merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives
(though with a local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example).
The Macedonians' own traditions derived their royal house from one
Argeas, son of Macedon, son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty,
the Temenids, had its origin in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos
in Greece, the first of these kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became
a most important part of the cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled
Alexander I to compete at the Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes
were allowed to do).... The Macedonians, then, were racially Greek."
Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge, London and
New York, 1977
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "The Macedonian State:
The Origins, Institution and History," Calrendon Press, Oxford,
1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
4. The Language of the Macedonians.
What language did these 'Macedones' speak? The name itself
is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means
'highlanders,' and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such
as 'Orestai' amd 'Oreitai,' meaning 'mountain-men.' A reputedly
earlier variant, 'Maketai,' has the same root, which means 'high,'
as in the Greek adjective 'makednos' or the noun mekos.'
The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod
recorded (p. 3 above) has a bearing on the question of Greek
speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes;
as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic
dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to
suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect.
Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins
of Hellen's three sons -- Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus -- who
were the founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely
Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recored this
relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh
century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
[27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
and there in the province, but they were of various origins
and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth
century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and
modified Hesiod's genealogy by bringing Macedon and his
descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking
family.
[28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
They disregard or fail to assess the evidence which I have cited,
[29] and they turn instead to 'Macedonian' words and names,
or/and to literary references. Philologists have studied words
which have been cited as 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and
glossaries, and they have come to no certain conclusion; for
some of the words are clearly Greek, and some are clearly not
Greek. That is not surprising; for as the territory of the
Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples
who spoke Illyrian, Paeonian, Thracian and Phrygian, and they
certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors
of lexica and glossaries. The philological studies result in a
verdict, in my opinion, of 'non liquet.' [30]
The toponyms of the Macedonian homeland are
the most significant. Nearly all of them are Greek: Pieria, Lebaea,
Heracleum, Dium, Petra, Leibethra, Aegae, Aegydium, Acesae,
Acesamenae; the rivers Helicon, Aeson, Leucus, Baphyras, Sardon,
Elpe'u's, Mitys; lake Ascuris and the region Lapathus.
The mountain names Olympus and Titarium may be pre-Greek;
Edessa, the earlier name for the place where Aegae was founded,
and its river Ascordus were Phrygian. [31]
The deities worshipped by the Macedones and the names
which they gave to the months were predominantly Greek,
and there is no doubt that these were not borrowings.
To Greek literary writers before the Hellenistic period the
Macedonians were 'barbarians.' The term referred to their way
of life and their institutions, which were those of the 'ethne' and
not of the city-state, and it did not refer to their speech. We can
see this in the case of Epirus. There Thucydides called the tribes
'barbarians.' But inscriptions found in Epirus have shown conclusively
that the Epirote tribes in Thucydides' lifetime were speaking Greek
and used names which were Greek. [32]
In the following century 'barbarian' was only one of the abusive
terms applied by Demosthenes to Philip of Macedon and his people.[33]
In passages which refer to the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander
the Great and the early successors there are mentions of
a Macedonian dialect, such as was likely to have been spoken in the
original Macedonian homeland. On one occassion Alexander
'called out to his guardsmen in Macedonian ('Makedonisti'),
as this [viz. the use of 'Macedonian'] was a signal ('symbolon') that
there was a serious riot.' Normally Alexander and his soldiers
spoke standard Greek, the 'koine,' and that was what the Persians
who were to fight alongside the Macedonians were taught. So the
order 'in Macedonian' was unique, in that all other orders were in
the 'koine.' [34] it is satisfactorily explained as an order in broad
dialect, just as in the Highland Regiment a special order for a particular
purpose could be given in broad Scots by a Scottish officer who
usually spoke the King's English.The use of this dialect among
themselves was a characteristic of the Macedonian soldiers
(rather that the officers) of the King's Army. This point is made
clear in the report -- not in itself dependable -- of the trial of
a Macedonian officer before an Assembly of Macedonians, in
which the officer (Philotas) was mocked for not speaking in dialect. [35]
In 321 when a non-Macedonian general, Eumenes, wanted
to make contact with a hostile group of Macedonian infantrymen,
he sent a Macedonian to speak to them in the Macedonian dialect,
in order to win their confidence. Subsequently, when they and the
other Macdonian soldiers were serving with Eumenes, they
expresed their affection for him by hailing him in the Macedonian dialect
('Makedonisti'). [36] He was to be one of themselves. As Curtius
observed, 'not a man among the Macedonians could bear to part
with a jot of his ancestral customs.' The use of this dialect was one
way in which the Macedonians expressed their apartness from the
world of the Greek city-states. [27] See J. M. Balcer in 'Historia' 37
(1988) 7.[28] FGrH 4 F 74 [29] Most recently E. Badian in
Barr-Sharrar 33-51 disregards the evidence as set out
in e.g. HM 2.39-54, when it goes against his view that the
Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other
than Greek. [30] The matter is dicussed at some length
in HM 2. 39-54 with reference especially to O. Hoffmann,
'Die Makedonen, ihre Sprache und ihre Volkstun' (Goettingen, 1906)
and J. Kalleris, Les Anciens Macedoniens I (Athens, 1954);
see also Kalleris II and R. A. Crossland in the CAH 3.1.843ff.
[31] For Edessa see HM 1.165 and for the Phrygians
in Macedonia 407-14. Olympus occurs as a Phrygian personal
name. [32] See Hammond, 'Epirus' 419ff. and 525ff.
[33] As Badian, loc. cit. 42, rightly observes: 'this, of course,
is simple abuse.'[34] Plu. 'Alex.'51.6[35] Curtius 6.8.34-6.
[36] PSI XII 2(1951) no. 1284, Plu. Eun.14.11.
Badian, loc. cit. 41 and 50 n.66, discusses the former
and not the latter, which hardly bears out his theory that
Eumenes 'could not directly communicate with Macedonian
soldiers,' and presumably they with him. Badian says in his
note that he is not concerned with the argument as to whether
Macedonian was a 'dialect' or 'a language.' Such an argument
seems to me to be at the heart of the matter. We have a
similar problem in regard to Epirus, where some had thought
the language of the people was Illyrian. In Plu.'Pyrrh.'1.3
reference was made to 'the local 'phone,'' which to me means
'dialect' of Greek; it is so in this instance because Plutarch
is saying that Achilles was called 'in the local 'phone' Aspestos.'
The word 'Aspestos' elsewhere was peculiar to Greek epic,
but it survived in Epirus in normal speech. It is of course
a Greek and not an Illyrian word. See Hammond, 'Epirus' 525ff.,
for the Greek being the language of central Epirus
in the fifth century B.C. "
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3
Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16
"Also, following Alexander's death, the rapid spread of Koine
based on Attic Greek made any distinction between Greek
and the language of 'the Macedonians' an academic one which
opposing camps continue to fight over. That Greek so easily
subsumed the local Macedonian dialect would indicate that
the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed from Greek
after all."
A.B. Boworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998,
Canto Edition
"Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon, concentrating
power in his own hands and office to his Companions. In nationality the
Companions remained overwhemingly Hellenic."
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their
origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now,
political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aischines once even
found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented
by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a
meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'Entirely Greek'.
Demosthenes' allegations were lent on appearance of credibility by the fact,
apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being
determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different
from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common
to western Greeks of Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the
Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted.
Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was
the issue raised at all."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press,
LA, 1990
"The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most
easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia
but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their
monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia,
suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in
principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle
the Illyrian problem at its roots."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.
"A new force began to make itself felt on the northern fringe of Hellas,
the kingdom of Macedon. Some people -Macedonians for the most
part- claimed it to be a Greek state and part of the Greek world. The
Macedonians spoke Greek and attended Hellenic festivals; their kings claimed
to be descented from Greek families- from Achilles, the great Achaean hero
of the Iliad, no less."
J.M. Roberts, "A Short History of the World", Oxford University Press,
New York, 1993
"Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine,
descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as
Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian...The Macedonians
over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member
of the Greek-speaking peoples."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth & Co. Ltd.,
London, 1994
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the
same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At
one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were
speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was
Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994
MACEDON
"Outlying Greek kingdom north of Thessaly, inland from the Thermaic Gulf,
on the northwest Aegean coast...Its name came from an ancient Greek
word meaning highlanders...Macedon was inhabited by various peoples
of Dorian-Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian descent, who spoke a Greek dialect
and worshipped Greek gods...Unification and modernization came gradually,
at the hands of kings of Dorian descent."
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World.", Oxford, 1995
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
Hope this all helps.
:)
June R Harton
> No, I do not lie. Ever. It hurts your credibility,
Bwahahhahahhahhahahhahhahahhahhahhahhahahahhaaa
Here, Bulgar, then face up to the truth about you and the Fyrom Slavs:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
> You're right, let the people decide.
Sure, Bulgar: