Reformation & Renaissance - A little education for Tassos
WolfWolf
Since Tassos answered by laughing to the historical link between Reformation and
Renaissance, I have the pleasure of providing him the guide to the Centre for
Reformation & Renaissance Studies
http://www.crrs.ca/new/library/webresources/webresources.htm
where he can find lots of information about how both currents conditioned each other.
OTOH a Google search for "medieval Greek music" only showed 3 hits - which does not
bring us further than to the simple statement that "Ancient and Medieval Greek music
was an art that was lost but it has been recovered", without explaining when and where
it was recovered.
WolfWolf
The European
Dorian West
Tassos? PISS OFF IDIOT!!!
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bn0mvu$mrb$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
WolfWolf
"Dorian West" <westd...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f93f0dd$0$20345$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> How can a yellow-skinned, slant-eyed savage
... understand what the matter is about?!?
Nothing, MongoloiDorian!
The ONLY thing you understand is collecting koala shit and selling it to tourists.
> possibly educate
> Tassos?
It seems, indeed, that he's a hopeless case.
Otherwise, how are things going in Redfern, beggar?!?
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios Retzios
I really do not suffer fools very well. If you want to sign on to a
deterministic view of history (rejected about 300 years ago), be my
guest. Attempts at Reformation of the Church occured on various times
well before Luther. What made reformation succeed in the early 16th
century (if succeed is the proper word) are a number of actions and
dynamics that were not really causally dependent but conditioned as
much by the environment as much by the progressive decline of Papal
power, the changing socioecomics of Europe, the balance of power and
the personalities involved. For example, had Charles V managed to
hold on to the treaty of Augsburg, no Reformation as we know it would
have occured. If the Spanish conquest of the Italian peninsula and
the defeat of the French in the same endevor had not occured, it is
highly doubtful that a Reformation as you know it would have occured.
Nothing in history predetermines anything. Events influence each
other in a random mode.
ADR
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message news:<bn0mvu$mrb$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
Anastassios Retzios
Just for your erudition, some notes on the influence of Greek music in
Western music.
----------
The influence of Hellenism in music continues through the millennium
of the Byzantine empire. It is highly disturbing that the
contributions of medieval Byzantine music have been ignored by the
scholars of Western music history. The terminology and modal system,
the octoechos, of the Byzantines was taken over in Western medieval
music without acknowledgment. The 4 Authentic and 4 Plagal modes, also
known individually as Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, etc. are all Greek
names which were taken into the West. Even polyphony which was present
from antiquity has been presented as a ca. 10th century Western
invention by the name of organum. It has been ignored that the
double-reed Greek aulos had performed a type of polyphony: a melody in
one reed and a drone accompaniment in the other reed. This tradition
was transmitted into Byzantium, where even though the music was
notated monophonically, it had always been performed with the
improvised drone accompaniment, the so-called isokratema. One only has
to look at Western musical treatises describing early polyphony to
understand that their description which they call melismatic or
Aquitanian organum is none other than that of medieval Byzantine
music. In fact, I have found an early 13th century Western musical
treatise that documents the origins of Greek polyphony in Greek
terminology as diaphonia basilica and triphonia basilica--information
which was probably brought back from the Crusaders who had come
through Byzantium. As an aural documentation, one has only to listen
to France's leading medieval performance group, Marcel Peres' Ensemble
Organum which sounds like Byzantine chant and which uses as the
group's soloist, Lycourgos Angelopoulos one of the leading Byzantine
chanters of Greece and the Director of The Byzantine Choir.
But why has this influence of Hellenism in music been hidden? The
truth of the matter is that most of our preserved examples and/or
fragments of Ancient Greek music were not uncovered until the
twentieth century and most of these by accident by archaeologists who
did not know what they were looking at. Furthermore, in looking at
examples of either Ancient Greek music or medieval Byzantine music, it
is not evident that either is music. In Ancient Greek, the musical
notation is an alphabetic notation written over a run-on Greek script.
Never has the saying been more true, "It is all Greek to me," than in
these examples which have been an enigma. In medieval Byzantine music,
the cryptic code for deciphering this neumatic notation into Western
staff notation was not regained until the 1930s. And even today the
issue of the methodology of transcription (that is deciphering the
music) between the Greek and Western camps is the most often debated
topic.
The picture to the right is a 1502 AD painting. It is a part of the
threesome: Aristotle's logic, Cicero's Rhetoric, and Tubal's Music.
The notational problems compounded with the difficulty of language,
either Ancient Greek or Byzantine Greek, have been insurmountable
problems for musicologists trained in Western art music and languages.
The result is that the discipline of musicology which documents and
teaches the history of music has been dominated by Western Europeans
who have chosen to write history with little knowledge of Ancient
Greece and even less knowledge of Byzantium. However, I would like to
report that this lost art form is slowly being recovered, largely
through the efforts of the Greek diaspora, and that music history is
being rewritten. An example of this Western dominance is that all
Western music history books have presented Hildegard of Bingen, an
early twelfth century composer, as the oldest woman composer for whom
there is preserved music. But there has been a long legacy of woman
composers from Antiquity and through Byzantium. Although we may not
have preserved music from Sappho and her sisterhood of composers, I
have found preserved music from Byzantine women composers. More
specifically, I have discovered over fifty musical compositions by
Kassia, born in 810 A.D.- between 843 and 867, making her the earliest
woman composer for whom there is preserved music. How did I find her
music? By sifting through musical manuscripts: particularly in my
Catalogue of the Byzantine Musical Manuscripts in the Vatican and my
forthcoming book -- Catalogue of the Musical Manuscripts of the Athens
National Library, which is a catalogue of the over 300 musical
manuscripts in the National Library of Greece.
______________________________
The history of music is unfortunately not an element of historiography
advancing at a rapid pace and most historians are not mucisians. So,
it hardly ever gets the attention it deserves. However, one would
possibly understand that when the Byzantine court from the 6th to the
12th century was the most advanced and most cultured in Europe, that
Byzantium maintained its control of southern Italy and the Adriatic
coast until the late 11th century (including Venice), that many
prominent western Europeans either visited, lived or worked in
Byzantium (mostly as members of the Imperial Guard), it would have
been rather unusual if there was no Greek medieval influence in most
aspects of western European life (especially considering that some of
the Holy Roman Emperors such as Otto II were half-Greeks and their
court was populated by Greek scholars). The influence and
counter-influence between the Greek East and Latin West can be clearly
discerned even today in Greek folk music.
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03102...@posting.google.com...
> Wolfie,
>
> I really do not suffer fools very well. If you want to sign on to a
> deterministic view of history (rejected about 300 years ago), be my
> guest. Attempts at Reformation of the Church occured on various times
> well before Luther. What made reformation succeed in the early 16th
> century (if succeed is the proper word) are a number of actions and
> dynamics that were not really causally dependent but conditioned as
> much by the environment as much by the progressive decline of Papal
> power, the changing socioecomics of Europe, the balance of power and
> the personalities involved. For example, had Charles V managed to
> hold on to the treaty of Augsburg, no Reformation as we know it would
> have occured. If the Spanish conquest of the Italian peninsula and
> the defeat of the French in the same endevor had not occured, it is
> highly doubtful that a Reformation as you know it would have occured.
> Nothing in history predetermines anything. Events influence each
> other in a random mode.
If ... if .. if ... History doesn't develop by "ifs", Tassos. At least that should be
known to you.
The Reformation wasn't the work of one single person alone. Before Luther we had
already the Husittes in Prague, and parallel to him, partly independently , we had
other reformators like Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, and John Knox.
Moreover, the Reformation wouldn't have developed into such a broad movement if it
wasn't because of the support of many intellectuals which were among the most eminent
figures of the Renaissance, like Durer.
So it was a wide range of social, artistic, and geo-political changes for which the
time was ripe. It was the end of the feudal system and upcoming of the nation-states.
Without the Protestant reformers rejecting the use of visual arts in the church we
wouldn't have had the response by the Catholic Churches with an exuberant style of art
and architecture called baroque, in ideological opposition to Protestant severity.
The Reformation is the inevitable outcome of earlier Renaissance discoveries by
humanist scholars. Classical texts in original languages circulated, sparking
intellectual debate and reevaluation of conventional thought. The wide impact of
Luther's great translation of the Bible into German and the appearance in England of
the King James Version is due, in part, to the linguistic education begun by the
humanists.
As mercantilism and commercial capitalism gains strength, science and mathematics come
to influence nearly every facet of life, and today's Europe bears the imprint of
Reformation.
If you call all this a "random" influence, you haven't learnt much about this
transcendental period of history. It is all a logical chain of intertwined, mutually
influencing events.
WolfWolf
The European
ERIC
Can you please provide the source for that Byzantine music article you
posted?
Thank you
Eric
--
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03102...@posting.google.com...
++
I am interested in the compositions of Kassia (beyond her Holy Week compositions) so I would
aprpeciate it if you would take the time and trouble to indicate the author of the following as
well as the website from which it was culled. It seems like something from Diane
Touliatos-Miliotis who is an authority on the music of Kassia and the music of Photius the
Patriarch but I would like you to confirm the same
Ilinden
++
Ilinden wrote:
> ERIC THE RED WITH THE PUTRID RESTAURANT IN TORONTO.
What's wrong with his restaurant specifically?
ERIC
question is a senseless one.
Regards
Eric
--
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F94B18B...@erols.com...
Anastassios Retzios
> Anastasi,
>
> I am interested in the compositions of Kassia (beyond her Holy Week compositions) so I would
> aprpeciate it if you would take the time and trouble to indicate the author of the following as
> well as the website from which it was culled. It seems like something from Diane
> Touliatos-Miliotis who is an authority on the music of Kassia and the music of Photius the
> Patriarch but I would like you to confirm the same
Galina:
You are right. The author of the piece is Diane Touliatos-Miliotis.
Here is some more information on Kasia:
--------------------------
Kassia in the early 9th century was using the sequence form in her
composition "Augustus the Monarch." The sequence is a repeated melody
form which has been purported to have been a Western invention by the
monks of St. Gaul in the middle to late 9th century, but Kassia was
using this form before the mid-9th century. However, Kassia's genius
is that she not only uses parallelism in the music, but parallelism of
the themes (comparing Augustus to Christ) and a parallel metrical
rhyming scheme. So could it be that the sequence was brought to the
West from Byzantium? Although this is difficult to prove, it can be
safely stated that because of Kassia's composition, the sequence form
was used in both the medieval East as well as the medieval West. In
other compositions, Kassia uses a theme and variation form which is
normally associated again with Western art music composers such as
Mozart and Beethoven. Kassia is also known for tone painting (where
the text reflects the melodic outline) and motivic construction in her
compositions. Tone painting in the West was usually not used until the
Renaissance with composers such as Josquin des Pres. As for the
motive, its use has long been associated with Beethoven, but can be
traced as far back as Machaut, a 14th century French composer. But
before there was Machaut, there was Kassia; and Kassia was composing
using motivic construction. She has many examples of motivic
construction, but one that I will mention is her composition "The
Five-stringed Lute and Five-fold Lamp" which commemorates five
martyrs, Saints Eustratios, Auxentios, Eugenios, Orestes, and
Mardarios and which is composed with a unifying motive of the 5th
(C-G) and its variants, symbolizing the pentachordon or five-stringed
lute and the five martyrs.
But Kassia is only one from thousands of Byzantine and Ancient Greek
composers whose names need to become commonplace in the history of
Western music. Did you know that such musical techniques as vocalise
and scat singing are not new inventions but were commonly used by the
Hellenes and were especially prominent in Byzantium as a means of
having instrumental vocalizations in the church which would otherwise
prohibit instruments. Also, the so-called Venetian technique of cori
spezzati (divided choirs) attributed to Giovanni Gabrieli and St.
Mark's Cathedral of Venice should be acknowledged as a Byzantine
technique, for in Byzantium there were always two choirs present (the
right and the left) either in the sacred music or in the secular music
performed in the Imperial palace.
_______________
The full article can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/hellenicmind/diane.html
ADR
++
ERIC wrote:
> As its existence can only be found in his/her fevered little mind, the
> question is a senseless one.
You mean you don't own a Toronto restaurant? I was wondering if I had
ever eaten there. I am fond of Greek food.
ERIC
within 3,000 kms of Toronto.
Regards
Eric
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F9575EC...@erols.com...
++
THe lamp was usually also immediately reminiscent of the lamps of
the wise virgins....And the pentachord is also the basis for the moveable
ison in some compositions as well as athe system of the tones themselves
(the plagal of the fifth, etc.)
But Kassia is only one from thousands of Byzantine and Ancient Greek
composers whose names need to become commonplace in the history of
Western music. Did you know that such musical techniques as vocalise
and scat singing are not new inventions but were commonly used by the
Hellenes and were especially prominent in Byzantium as a means of
having instrumental vocalizations in the church which would otherwise
prohibit instruments.
Hmm, the terrarums, as mystical vocalizations (in pure tone) were
a Macedonian Byzantine invention, Koukouzles being one of the more improtant
composers..
Also, the so-called Venetian technique of cori
spezzati (divided choirs) attributed to Giovanni Gabrieli and St.
Mark's Cathedral of Venice should be acknowledged as a Byzantine
technique, for in Byzantium there were always two choirs present (the
right and the left) either in the sacred music or in the secular music
performed in the Imperial palace.
Antiphonal chant is interesting to consider. It has existed
from the earliest Orthodox choral singing, and definately fixed by Saint
John of Damascus.. Its presence in Syrian chant even today gives
an opportunity for us today to hear the ancient forms but antiphonal chanting
was also done in many unique ways in the Balkans even up to today.
On a trip to Sarajevo , I was delighted to hear how the system worked
when I visited the Serbian Church there in the old quarter near the charshija.
The preist told me, in answer to my question of whether the women and men
were separated in the nave, that both had been in choirs, that Men
and boys sang in unison in two octaves while women and girls sang in unison
on their tone and as the last note of the verse of the antiphon was held,
the next group would continue on their tonic, i.e the harmonization was
done on the base of the ison, which changed according to the choir and
, of course, the ison was moveable as well. "All but the old old
people have lost this " said the priest. Then, many years later,
listening to an Albanian wedding music CD (Jane Sugarman of Stoney Brooke's
"Wedding in the Prespa" describes everything and comes with a CD of what
she experiences) , I hear the same kind of antiphonal system at work in
men's or women's singing _one ends on a note, the other comes in on a tonic)
.
_______________
The full article can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/hellenicmind/diane.html
I just knew it had to be her.
ADR
++
ERIC wrote:
> Yes, Greek food is excellent and no, I do not own a restaurant nor do I live
> within 3,000 kms of Toronto.
Toronto is nice. If you don't own a Greek restaurant in Toronto, then why is
ilinden complaining about it?
ERIC
--
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F95A0E0...@erols.com...
Ilinden
vomit before you enter the shithouse, Eric the Red he is not a clean
person.
Ilinden
Ilinden
Ilinden
Cara C
Zmijce otrovno, (poisonous snake)
It's a good thing Eric doesn't own a restaurant with your vicious
remarks about a person's business. How low can you stoop by making
damaging statements
that could hurt someone's income?! You are a man of no class!!!
Cara
June R Harton
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3F9590AB...@erols.com...
>Hmm, the terrarums, as mystical vocalizations (in pure tone) were a>Macedonian Byzantine invention,
Schneider, you keep your lying posts out of here...Bulgarians they were and Bulgarians they are now.
There was NO Macedonia in the Western Balkans since the Fyromian
Bulgars came to their home there, at the end of the 6th century AD.
Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority,
like that Bulgar poster ilindra, Nicholov and Slavko are simply West
Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And here:
Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html
Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).
And here:
For fair use only.
http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm
" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...
...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.
... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...
Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.
The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"
Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV
This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "
And here:
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And finally here
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm
http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
s
Ilinden
Ilinden the Macedonian
Anastassios Retzios
I posted the link in my reply to Galina
ADR
"ERIC" <fit...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:AZYkb.135465$6C4.121399@pd7tw1no...
Anastassios Retzios
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3F9590AB...@erols.com...
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
The Greek mass with its two choirs and the priest is nothing more and nothing less but a full copy of ancient Greek theater as it evolved in Hellenistic and Roman times (and fits with the classical education of the Fathers of the Church). If you have followed the mass, you would know that the priest addresses the choirs and the choirs address the priest in a kind of a dialog very reminiscent of a tragedy performance with full deliverance at the end. So, choral singing is not derived at all from St. John Damaskenos but it has much more ancient roots. In fact, the Mass of St. John Chrysostom that is being utilized today was enacted to appeal to the cultured tastes of the imperial court and aristocracy who have not, by no means, fully converted to Christianity. It thus utilized a number of Mithraic and mystery religion elements and borrowed heavily from existing performance modes familiar to the cultured classes.
Very interesting speculation. However, we know that our chant came from the Hellenistic synagogue tradition , just as our fresco painting is from the same. This is not to state that Hellenism had no effect on the synagogue tradition itself - it is not called the hellenistic synagogue for nothing - but that, however creative your speculation, and however much sense it might make on its face, we all know otherwise.
ERIC
Thanks
Eric
--
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:YUgmb.19276$Tr4.39602@attbi_s03...
Anastassios Retzios
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3F99AF71...@erols.com...