BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO! [Makedonsko Sonce broj 197]
Jason
Makedon wrote:
> MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
>
> BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
>
> MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
That's funny. Then why do present-day Macedonians speak a dialect
of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
Makedon
Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
Spored renomiraniot bugarskiot istori~ar Prof. Vasil
Zlatarski prvite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska
nacija bile ~etiri huno-bugarski ordi, ~ie poteklo e otkaj
Himalaite. Vo "Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi", napi{an u{te vo 8.
vek vo Bugarija, se tvrdi deka tataro-mongolskiot voda~
Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik e pratatko na Bugarite.
Ovoj i slednite dva teksta povtorno mu gi posvetuvam na ~i~ko
\or|i Mladenov od Toronto).
Makedonskata istoriografija gre{e{e {to ne im posveti pogolemo
vnimanie na prezentiraweto na potekloto na Bugarite, poradi {to,
kaj del od na{ata javnost se sozdade vakuum, t.e. nepoznanica vo
odnos na vistinskite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska
nacija, a toa se turko-mongolskite Bugari (t.n. Prabugari).
Makedonskite bugaromani, instruirani od Bugarija, sakaa da ja
iskoristat vakvata sostojba i bez da spomnat nitu zbor za
turko-mongolskoto poteklo na Bugarite, se obidoa preku
prika`uvawe bajki povrzani so 19. i po~. na 20. vek da gi ubeduvaat
Makedoncite deka imale "bugarski etni~ki koreni."Bidej}i nitu
eden od niv nema napi{ano ni{to za bugarskite koreni (koi spored
niv se i ,,makedonski"), vo ovoj tekst }e go storime toa. Taka
najlesno Makedoncite samite }e sfatat dali na{ata nacija ima
bugarski etni~ki koreni ili ne. Logikata e ednostavana. Koj saka
da doznae dali na{ite predci bile Bugari - neka se zapoznae so
bugarskata etnogeneza, pa taka samiot najlesno }e sfati deka
Makedoncite nemale nikakva etni~ka vrska so Bugarite. No,
makedonskite bugaromani i ovde davaat potvrda za svojata uloga
na klasi~ni jani~ari. Imeno, tie mo`ebi znaat po ne{to za
makedonskata istorija (gledano niz bugarska prizma), no ako gi
pra{ate za bugarskata istorija i etnogeneza, za turko-mongolskite
bugarski hanovi, za nivniot nomadski `ivot vo Azija, za kowskata
opa{ka kako niven prv simbol, za nivnite sredovekovni
pusto{ewa na Makedonija i sl., }e vidite deka mnozinstvoto od
niv nemaat poim od seto toa. Zna~i, se pravat Bugari (ili potomci
na Bugarite), a nemaat poim koi bile Bugarite. Taka bilo i so
jani~arite. Se nadevam deka od ovoj tekst }e nau~at barem ne{to.
(PRA)BUGARITE NASTANALE OD ^ETIRI HUNO-BUGARSKI ORDI!
Sega predlagam da go prosledime potekloto na (Pra)Bugarite, t.e.
na prvite priznati etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska nacija i
toa citiraj}i isklu~ivo bugarski i stranski izvori.
Prika`uvaweto na nivnoto poteklo }e gi otrfli site zabludi
deka nie Makedoncite imame bilo kakva etni~ka vrska so
Bugarite.
Najprvo da ka`eme deka terminot ,,Prabugari" e ve{ta~ki
sozdaden od strana na bugarskata nauka. Imeno, t.n. Prabugari sebe
si izvorno si se narekuvale Bugari, a ne Prabugari. Toa se
vsu{nost vistinskite Bugari i kako takvi se deklarirale. Denes
vo bugarskata nauka tie se nare~eni Prabugari, so cel da se pravi
razlika pome|u niv i dene{nite Bugari vo nacionalna smisla na
zborot. Me|utoa, se pogolem e pritisokot od sovremenite bugarski
istori~ari ve{ta~kiot termin Prabugari da se isfrli od naukata
i istiot da se zameni so adekvatniot termin Bugari. Vpro~em,
nekoi bugarski istori~ari i vo minatoto za t.n. Prabugari go
koristele terminot Bugari.
Sepak, za da im zadovolime i na ednite i na drugite bugarski
istori~ari, poradi faktot {to t.n. Prabugari (vistinskite Bugari)
do{le od nivnata tatkovina Azija, predlagam vo ovoj tekst za niv
da go koristime terminot Bugaro-azijati. Ova so cel da go
zadr`ime vistinskiot termin za nivnoto etni~ko ime (Bugari
namesto Prabugari), no i da go potencirame nivnoto geografsko
poteklo (Azija, azijati), kako bi pravele razlika pome|u niv i
dene{nite Bugari - pripadnici na sovremenata bugarska nacija.
Pa, da vidime kone~no koi bile Bugarite (Bugaro-azijatite)?
STARITE BUGARI - TATARI!
]e po~neme so citat od knigata (koja denes se koristi kako
u~ili{no pomagalo vo bugarskite sredni u~ili{ta), pod naslov
Grafi~na istorija na balkanskite narodi od bugarskiot istori~ar
Evgeni Vladikov (Sofija, 1992 god.). Za potekloto na Bugarite vo
podnaslovot Bugari Vladikov pi{uva:
,,Bugarite pripa|aat na ponovite narodi koi se doselile na
Balkanskiot Poluostrov (...) Okolu 670 godina na severoistok od
deltata na r. Dunav se pojavuvaat Prabugarite, koi se narod od
turksko poteklo. Gi narekuvame Prabugari za da gi razlikuvame od
dene{nite Bugari. Pratatkovina na Prabugarite e centralna
Azija. Tie se pridvi`uvaat kon zapad i sozdavaat golem
voenoplemenski sojuz nare~en Golema Bugarija,na ~elo so hanot
Kubrat, koj gi zavzema zemjite pome|u Azovsko More i severen
Kavkaz.Pod pritisok na Hazarite Golema Bugarija se raspa|a. Eden
od sinovite na Kubrat prodol`uva na zapad i se naseluva kraj
deltata na rekata Dunav. Toa e hanot Asparuh, koj so pomo{ na
Slovenite, koi se naseleni po ramninite okolu dvata brega na
dolniot tek na r. Dunav, uspeva da gi odzeme od Vizantija zemjite
pome|u Stara Planina i Dunav i od Crno More do r.Timok.So
potpi{uvawe na miroven dogovor vo 681g. Vizantija ja priznava
novosozdadenata dr`ava Bugarija koja se protega pome|u Stara
Planina i Karpatite - dr`ava vo koja e sozdadena od osum
slovenski plemiwa na ~elo so Prabugarite..."
Za azijatskoto (tursko, turksko ili tatarsko) etni~ko poteklo na
Bugarite, postojat i drugi brojni svedo{tva i citati od razni
avtori i publikacii, koi go potvrduvaat istoto. ]e navedeme nekoi od
niv.
Vo golemata Grolier multimedijalnata op{ta kompjuterska CD
enciklopedija (objavena vo SAD, 1995 godina i preku Internet,
dostapna do desetici milioni korisnici {irum svetot), vo
podnaslovot Bugari pi{uva:
,,Bugarite se tursko pleme, koi se naselile na Balkanot od
centralna Azija vo vtorata polovina na 7. vek. Tie gi pot~inile
slovenskite plemiwa i go osnovale Prvoto Bugarsko carstvo vo
681 godina."
Angliskiot patepisec Vilijam Makmajkl vo svojot patepis od
negovata poseta na Bugarija vo 1818 godina (koj patepis denes e
objaven vo deloto: Angliskite patepisci za Bugarija, Sofija, 1987)
napi{al:
,,Starite Bugari se Tatari koi do{le vo Bugarija vo petti vek od
bregovite na Volga."
Vo neprocenlivo zna~ajnoto drevno istorisko delo pod naslov
,,Imenik na bugarskite hanovi" (napi{ano vo Bugarija vo dale~niot
8. vek) za tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-bo`jiot kam{ik se veli
deka e ,,pratatko na Bugarite". Toj vo ova delo se sre}ava pod
imeto Avitolah, a kako negovi naslednici (od negoviot turkski rod
Dulo) sleduvaat hanovite: Irnik (sin na Atila, koj na nekoi mesta
se sre}ava i pod imeto Ernah, z.m.), Gostun, Kurt i Bezmer, za koi
pi{uva deka, vo sklad so azijatskata tradicija, imale izbri~eni
glavi. Pod imeto Kurt ovde se podrazbira bugarskiot han Kubrat,
{to zna~i deka vo ovoj Imenik, Atila e smetan za direkten krven
predok na hanot Kubrat i na Bugaro-azijatite. Da potsetam deka
denes hanot Kubrat se smeta kako prviot etni~ki vladetel na
dene{nata bugarska nacija, a gledame deka toj bil direkten krven
potomok na tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila - bo`jiot kam{ik. (Pa,
zarem Tataro-Mongolot Atila e prviot predok i na Makedoncite?
Navistina se{to od na{ite bugaromani...).
Inaku ,,Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi" e napi{an vo vremeto na
hanot Asparuh, koj e eden od sinovite na han Kubrat, {to zna~i deka
ovoj Imenik e napi{an od toga{ni dobri poznava~i na istorijata
na Bugarite. (Podetalno za ova kaj: Prof. Dimitar Angelov:
,,Obrazuvane na bÍlgarskata narodnost," Sofija 1971 g., i vo:
,,HristomatiÔ po istoriÔ na BÍlgariÔ," Sofija 1964 g.).Odime
ponatamu.
DRUGI SVEDO[TVA
Vo Kratkata bugarska enciklopedija (Sofija, 1963, Prv
tom,s.30),pi{uva:
,,So imeto Bugari se narekuvaat prabugarskite plemiwa, koi se od
turksko poteklo i koi `iveat na sever od Crno More i Kavkaz, od
Dnepar do Volga. Edna grupa od niv, na ~elo so Asparuh se
preseluvaat na krajot od 7. vek vo severoisti~niot del od
Balkanskiot Poluostrov."
Vo Enciklopedijata na Jugoslavija (Zagreb, 1985), avtorot V. Vel,
za potekloto na Bugarite pi{uva:
,,Zborot Bulgar nastanal od staroturskiot zbor bulgar (me{anec),
{to bil naziv za edno od turko-tatarskite plemiwa."
Vo Opca enciklopedija jugoslavenskog leksikografskog zavoda (Zagreb,
1977, tom I. str. 715) za Bugarite pi{uva:
,,Bugarite imeto go dobile od tatarskiot narod Bugari koi se
naselile na Balkanot vo 7. vek i gi pokorile Slovenite."
Vo deloto ,,Istorija na ju`nite i na zapadnite Sloveni" (Moskva,
1969 g.), za Bugarite pi{uva:
,,Vo vtorata polovina na 7. vek, se pojavile turskite plemiwa,
dojdeni od severnoto Crnomorie. Za razlika od dene{nite Bugari,
vo literaturata nivniot naziv e Protobugari."
Vo knigata Obrazuvane na blgarskata narodnost od Prof. Dimitar
Angelov (Sofija, 1971), na str. 116 i 117, tvrdi deka ve}e e
definitivno utvrdeno etni~koto poteklo na Bugarite. Ovde toj
pi{uva:
,,Uspesite postignati vo oblasta na lingvistikata i otkrivaweto
na nekoi pismeni pametnici, vo koi se sre}avaat prabugarski
zborovi, postepeno go formiraat sfa}aweto deka prabugarskiot
etnos spa|al vo semejstvoto na turkojazi~nite plemiwa i
plemenski grupi, kako na primer: Huni, Oguzi, Ujguri, Hazari,
Pe~enezi, Kumani i drugi... Stojali{teto deka Prabugarite za
vreme na svoeto doa|awe na Balkanot bile turko-jazi~en narod
ve}e mo`e da se smeta deka e nepobitno doka`ano... Eden od
najbliskite jazici na odamna is~eznatiot prabugarski jazik e
jazikot na sovremenite ^uva{i. Za bliskata vrska pome|u
Prabugarite i ^uva{ite svedo~at i etnografskite prou~uvawa,
napraveni vo posledno vreme."
Vo Historia slowian poludnio wych i zachodnich (Warszawa, 1977 g.), za
Bugarite pi{uva:
,,Protobugarite i drugite turski narodi bile sto~ari, a se
zanimavale i so zemjodelstvo i sto~arstvo."
Eden od najpoznatite bugarski istori~ari Vasil Zlatarski, vo
svoeto delo Istorija na b'lgarskata d'r`ava prez srednite vekove
(tom I, Sofija, 1971), na str. 55, pi{uva:
"Prvata istorija na Bugarite nesomneno treba da ja barame vo
istorijata na onie sredno-azijatski turski narodi, koi se poznati
pod op{toto ime Huni..."
Ovde posebno sakam da potenciram deka prof. Zlatarski go
upotrebuva terminot turski, a ne turkski.
Vo prodol`enie na svojata kniga (str. 153) prof. Zlatarski tvrdi
deka Bugarite nastanale od ~etiri ordi. Ovoj profesor gi dava i
miwata na ovie ~etiri, kako {to gi narekuva samiot:
,,huno-bugarski ordi", koi go so~inuvale etni~koto jadro na
toga{nite Bugari. Imiwata na ovie bugarski ordi se: Kupi-Bulgar,
Du~i-Bulkar, Olhontor-B'lkar i ^'dar-Bolkar.
Ovde ne mo`am da se vozdr`am, a da ne zapra{am: Zarem od ovie
ordi nastanala dene{nata makedonska nacija? Spored
makedonskite bugaromani, odgovorot e pozitiven! Poradi toa ni
ostanuva da konstatirame deka kakva {to e brojnosta na
makedonskite bugaromani kaj nas, tamam ima za sekogo po edna orda
(samo prvo }e treba da se dogovorat koj od koja od ovie ordi vodi
direktno poteklo).
Vo knigata Formirane na staroblgarskata kultura (Sofija, 1977)
od avtorot Stan~o Vaklinov, na str. 15, pi{uva:
,,Prabugarite bile turkojazi~en narod, ~ija pratatkovina se nao|a
na dale~niot istok, vo srceto na Azija... Prabugarite
pretstavuvale edna celina so mongolskite i manxurskite
plemiwa."
Na stranica 34, Vaklinov pi{uva:
,,Rodot na Asparuh i rodot na Irnik (sin na tataro-mongolskiot
voda~ Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik, z.m.) poteknuvaat od drevniot turkski
rod Dulo,koj vo istorijata na Turkite ostavil mnogu pokolenija na
proslaveni voda~i."
Vo knigata Istori na B'lgari (Prv tom, Sofija, 1954, str. 57)
pi{uva: ,,Po poteklo Prabugarite se Turki."
(Prodol`uva)
You can read this and other articles at the Makedonsko Sonce
Web Page, MAKEDONSKO SONCE <http://www.makedonskosonce.com>.
This post can be read in the Macedonian Kirilica, if you have
downloaded and installed the fonts from the Makedonsko Sonce
Web Site, by selecting View, Encoding and then User defined
options from the Menu Toolbar and the subsequent drop down
menu options, if you are using Netscape Communicator 4, and
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Browsers, Mail And News Readers.
Ako nekoj ima vreme da go preiskuca ovoj napis na chista Latinica,
povelete!
Makedon,
Stephane Manov
Makedon wrote:
>
> Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
>
> BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
A "makedoncite" sa s chvedski proizhod : vsichkite edni takiva rusi sus
sini ochi, snajni lude ot severa, proizhojdachti ot taka narechenite
skandinavski slaviani, neznaino kak ozovali se mejdu tezi huni i varvari
na Balkanite deto ne im priznavat ia imeto, ia teritoriata, ia ezika, ia
Ohridskoto ezero.
SM
bulgarski eskimos
s maika-indianka ot Ognena zemia i vuicho-aborigen ot Samoa.
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <352467D9...@unforgettable.com>, mak...@unforgettable.com says...
>
>Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
>
>BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
...
>Vo neprocenlivo zna~ajnoto drevno istorisko delo pod naslov
>,,Imenik na bugarskite hanovi" (napi{ano vo Bugarija vo dale~niot
>8. vek) za tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-bo`jiot kam{ik se veli
>deka e ,,pratatko na Bugarite". Toj vo ova delo se sre}ava pod
>imeto Avitolah,
Imeto e AVITOHOL, a eto kakvo kazva edna srednovekovna (XIV-XV v.)
litovska hronika za neobiknovenija proizhod na rodonachalnicite na
njakoi drevni i po-kysni narodi (vkljuchitelno i bylgarite):
"Ustiages krol' medskij skazal umorit' Kirovi Gaspargovi sekretarova
svoemu abii po nem ne kroleval. Gaspargos nad nim szhalilsja. Tak tezh'
krol' naprednejshij gishpanskij Bolgaros vnuka i siina svoego ... kazal
ego ukinuti v more ale naval'nost' morskaja viikinula ego zhivogo i
zdorovogo na bereg, gde ego elenica dikaja viikormila persemi svoimi.
Potom stal on vtoriim carem gishpanskim kotorogo imja Gobis. Takzhe
misikijskogo knjazha albo bolgarskoe ot elenicii biilo viikormlennoe,
na pushtu buduchi zanesennoe na zgublenie. Parisa siina Priamova,
krolevicha trojanovska na pushtu medvedica viihovala ..."
ili tova na bylgarski:
"Astiag, kraljat na midijcite, kazal na Gasparg, svoja pisar, da umori
Kir, za da ne caruva sled nego. Gasparg obache go syzhalil. Taka syshto
naj-pyrvijat ispanski kral - Bolgoros, kazal da hvyrljat negovija vnuk
i sin v moreto, no morskite vylni go izhvyrlili zhiv i zdrav na brega,
kydeto edna diva syrna go othranila sys svoeto vime. Posle toj stanal
vtori ispanski car, narechen Gobis. TAKA SYSHTO I KNJAZHYT MIZIJSKI ILI
BYLGARSKI BIL OTHRANEN OT SYRNA, SLED KATO GO ZAHVYRLILI V GORSKIJA
PUSHTINAK DA ZAGINE. Paris, sinyt na Priam, prestolonaslednikyt na
Troja bil otgledan ot edna mechka v pushtinaka."
Samoto ime AVITOHOL na ezika na Vakhancite, obitavashti techenieto na
rekata Wakhan-darja v Pamir, znachi 'SIN NA SYRNATA, DETE NA SYRNATA'
- ot 'avi'=syrna (roe, deer) i 'tohol, tofl'=dete (child).
Na Farsi Kabuli 'avi'=syrna (deer), na Ishkashimski e 'ahvi,ahui',
na Giljanski e 'afi, ahu'. Syshto 'dete' za tjah e 'tohol', 'tyhyl',
'tyfyl', etc.
That is - AVITOHOL='the doe's son', and the Proto-Bulgarians believed their
grandparent to have been reared by a doe.
...
a kako negovi naslednici (od negoviot turkski rod
>Dulo) sleduvaat hanovite: Irnik (sin na Atila, koj na nekoi mesta
>se sre}ava i pod imeto Ernah, z.m.), Gostun, Kurt i Bezmer, za koi
>pi{uva deka, vo sklad so azijatskata tradicija, imale izbri~eni
>glavi. Pod imeto Kurt ovde se podrazbira bugarskiot han Kubrat,
>{to zna~i deka vo ovoj Imenik,
Narochno davam celija Imennik, zashtoto edva li ste go cheli njakoga:
"AVITOHOL zhit let 300. Rod emu Doulo. A let emu dilomtvirem.
IRNIK zhit let 150. Rod emu Doulo. A let emu dilomtvirem.
GOSTUN namestnik sii 2 let. Rod emou Ermi. A let emou dohstvirem.
KOURT 60 let drzha. Rod emu Doulo. A let semou shegorvechem.
BEZMER tri let. A rod emou Doulo.
Sii 5 knez drzhashe knenzhenie obonou stranu Dounaja let 515
ostrizhenniimi glavami i potom pride na stranou Dounaja ISPERIH
knez tozhde i po sele.
ISPERIH knenz 61 leto. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou verenialem.
TERVEL 21 let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou tekouchitem.
TVIREM 28 let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou dvanshehtem.
SEVAR 15 let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou tohaltom.
KORMISOSH 17 let. Rod emou Vokil. A let emou shegortvirem sii zhe
knez izmeni rod Doulov rekoshe vihtoun.
VINEH 7 let a rod emou Oukil. A let emou imeonshegoralem.
TELEC 3 let. Rod emou Ugain. A let emou smoroalltem.
OUMOR 40 dni, Rod emou Oukil. A let emou dilom toutom."
>Makedon,
>
>MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
>
>BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
>
>MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
Take care, Makedon. Mnogo vze da se otrodjavash i gluposti da prikazvash.
Vassil Karloukovski
---
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/3424
Nobody
Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote in article
<3524F5F1...@unforgettable.com>...
.....
> Stephane, please write in English or in Macedonian because I don't
> understand any other languages and I understood very little of what
> you have written.
>
Da ti e.a maikata - tova razbirash li?
> Redakcija "Makedonsko sonce" ul. "Leninova" br.79
>
> 9100 Skopje, Republika Makedonija. Tel / faks: (091) 130-137;
>
> E-mail: mso...@soros.org.mk
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nikolay D. Tarkalanov
Julian Stoev (st...@usa.net) wrote:
: A mezdu drugoto, za edin sredno razvit bulgarin, kakto i makedonec ne e
: nikakav problem da razbira i ezika v Chehia, Surbia, Hurvatia, Poland,
: Russia, Slovakia. Osobeno pismen! Imashe pri mene edin slovenec. S kef mu
Juliane:
Ne se izhvurljai za Cheshki, Slovashki ili Polski ezik. Te sa dosta po
daleche. No factut si ustava, che vsichki chetem i razbirame 99-100 % ot
napisanoto na srpskijat drygar, pri tova bez da sme uchili tozi ezik v
uchilishte. Nick
Nikolay D. Tarkalanov
Makedon (mak...@unforgettable.com) wrote:
: Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
: BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
Gospodin Makedon, shte imate li dobrinata da razkazhete njakolko hubavi
vica na srpski ili makednoski ezik. Tova sa ljubimite mi vicove i zvuchat
mnogo smeshno! Ako iskate, i az shte kazha 2-3.
Nick Tarkalanov
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <352467D9...@unforgettable.com>,
Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>
> Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
>
> BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
> Spored renomiraniot bugarskiot istori~ar Prof. Vasil
> Zlatarski prvite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska
> nacija bile ~etiri huno-bugarski ordi, ~ie poteklo e otkaj
> Himalaite. Vo "Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi", napi{an u{te vo 8.
> vek vo Bugarija, se tvrdi deka tataro-mongolskiot voda~
> Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik e pratatko na Bugarite.
>
>
"Letopis i rodoslovie"
Pop Jovcho ot Trjavna
1786-1855
"...
godini ot godini ot
Adam Rojdestvo
Hristovo
Pelemen, koito beshe
v Troada 5324(?) 1184 pr.RH
Antigon,negov naslednik 5388(?) 1120 pr.RH
.
.
.
.
Ilirik 4522 986 pr.RH
.
Vladilii 4688 820 pr.RH
Koleda 4808 700 pr.RH
Bolg 4838 670 pr.RH
Lila 4923 585 pr.RH
Perun 5148 360 pr.RH
Sirma 5168 340 pr.RH
Agron 5208 300 pr.RH
Langar 5238 240 pr.RH
Pinii 5258 250 pr.RH
Gentii 5308 200 pr.RH
Dekefal 5388 120 pr.RH
.
Vologis 5450 58 pr.RH
Attila 5908 400
(dopulnen po-kusno) Boian 430
(dopulnen po-kusno) Kardan 460
Imena na Bulgarskite kniaze
Bulgarite biaha
progoneni ot Traian
Rimski i pak se
vuzvurnaha v godina 5997 489
kato imaha za
predvoditel
1. Boris , svoia kniaz 5998 490
2. Voleg 6010 502
3. Dragon 6038 530
4. Kobrat
(dopulnen po-kusno -
Zabergan) 6069 661
5. Batoia
(dopulnen po-kusno -
Boian) 6105 597
6. Astaruh 6140 632
7. Trivelii 6204 696
8. Kormesii 6228 720
9. Telesii 6252 744
10. Savin 6268 760
11. Pagan 6279 771
12. Telerik 6315 807
13. Kardam 6320 812
14. Krum 6328 820
(dopulneni po-kusno
Dukum , Viceng) ... ...
15. Coka 6344 836
16. Doik 6347 839
17. Murtagon 6351 843
18. Vladimir 6358 850
19. Bogor , v krushtenieto
Mihail 6368 860
20. Georgii Bogor 6388 880
21. Presian Bogor 6408 895
Imena na Bulgarskite Care
22. Boris, car Bolgarskii 6408 900
23. Simeon silnii 6412 904
24. Petur krepkii 6448 940
25. Boris 6476 978
26. David krotkii 6488 980
(zachertan zaedno s godinite)
27. Samuil 6500 992
(godinite zachertani)
28. Gavriil nezlobivii 6522 1019
(imeto zachertano)
29. Sviatoslav 6530 1022
30. Tihomir 6539 1031
31. Aluzian 6555 1047
32. Petur Delian 6588 1090
33. Bodin 6638 1140
34. Asen mujestvenii 6688 1190
35. Petur milostivii 6699 1201
36. Ioann hrabrii 6718 1220
37. Boril Kaliman 6737 1239
38. Mihail Kaliman 6740 1242
39. Ioann Kaliman 6743 1245
40. Dimitrii Kaliman 6746 1248
41. Mihail Kaliman 6750 1252
42. Ioann Kaliman 6755 1257
43. Georgi Kaliman 6766 1268
44. Michiu, zet na Mihail
Kaliman 6780 1272
45. Tihon Konstantin 6786 1278
46. Lahan Kordokuvas 6789 1281
47. Ioann Asen 6798 1290
48. Terter 6828 1320
49. Mihail Strashimirov 6834 1326
50. Smil 6837 1329
51. Sviatoslav 6841 1333
52. Terter Georgii 6844 1336
53. Voislav 6848 1340
54. Mihail Sviatoslavov 6850 1342
55. Strashimir, zet srubski 6853 1345
56. Ioann Strashimirov i Nedin
vuv Vidin 6858 1350
57. Aleksandur v Ternovo 6859 1351
58. Strashimir Ioanov v Vidin 6881 1373
59. Mihail Strashimirov
vuv Vidin 6889 1381
60. Ioan Shishman
Aleksandrov v Ternovo 6890 1382
61. Georgii Mihailov v Vidin 6903 1395
Tozi Ioann Shishman beshe pobeden ot Amurat pervii,
(koito) go otvede v Edrene; i kato go vidia, che e
izriaden muj, mu dade dushteria si za jena. Kato umria
Amurat , nastana Baiazid - toi ubi Ioanna Shishmana i
zavladia Bolgaria , i ia porobi v godina 6904/1396.
Georgii puk se zatvori v manastir blizo do Sofia,
i beshe (stana) bezvesten...
..."
"Letopis i rodoslovie"
Pop Jovcho ot Trjavna
1786 - 1855
Redaktor - prof. Ivan Radev
Belejki - gl.as. Todor Mollov
UI "Sv.Sv.Kiril i Metodi"
Veliko Turnovo, 1995
DRUGA ISTRORIA NA BULGARITE , PISANA OT BULGARIN , A NE OT ENICHARIN :
"Istoria vo kratce o bolgarskom narode slavenskom
sochinisia i opisasia v leto 1792 Spiridonom Jeroshimonahom"
"...
O Kolad , tretii Kral Iliricheskii. Po Bladilii nasta tretii kral
imenom Kolad, v leto ot sotvorenia mira 4745 (763 predi Hr.)
Toi biashe vesma nechestiv , zol , vlastolibiv , bludnik , surov
i prosto reshti vsiakoi nepravde otec , a nai-pache muchitel ,
nemilostiv . Togo radi vozlibi ego satana i postavi ego
odesnuiu sebe , daia emu chest dostoinoiu za dela ego.
Kogda se smesisha s elini i s rimliane , iliriici videsha , kako
oni delaiut kumiri - idoli i pokloniaiutsia im , voshote i Kolad
bogom biit i povel narodu poklaniatsia emu iako bogu, a ne
iako kraliu.I rodi dva sina , imia pervamu Bolg ili Bog. I kagda
se rodi pervii sin ego Bolg , povel vsemu narodu po vsei zemli
ego terjestvovat , sirech prazdnovati v mesiac dekemvrii 24 dnia,
iadushte i piushte , i poiushte pesni , sirech "Bolg se rodi Kolade,
toizi vecher Kolade" i prochia, povtariashte mnogokratno
pomianushte imia Kolada, daje i do dnes est prazdnik toi u
Bolgarii. Ashte krestishasia bolgari obache drevnago togo
diavolskogo obichaia ne zabravisha.Potom ubi ego Bog gromom,
i tako izverje okaianuiu dushu svoiu. Po smerti Koladovii nastasha
sinove ego Bolg i Brem.
...
Bolg je brat Bremuv zavoeva Trakiu , Makedoniu , Dalmaciu
daje do Beloe more i do Rim. I toi be podoben otca svoemu
muchitel velikii , povel narodovii zvatsia imenem ego Bolgare,
i ot to vremia nazvashasia iliriici bolgarii , a ne iakoje necii mniat,
iako ot reki Volgi izidosha bolgarii.
..."
ISTORIA NA MAKEDONIA:
1. Filip II Makedonski
2. Aleksandar III Veliki
3. Samuil Bulgarski
> Makedon,
>
> MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
>
> BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
>
> MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
>
>
ZASHTO NE PISHESH NA "MAKEDONSKI", MAKEDONECO ?!?!?!
S Boga !!!
Ziezi
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/index.html
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
em...@mail.techno-link.com
>
> BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
> Spored renomiraniot bugarskiot istori~ar Prof. Vasil
> Zlatarski prvite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska
> nacija bile ~etiri huno-bugarski ordi, ~ie poteklo e otkaj
> Himalaite. Vo "Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi", napi{an u{te vo 8.
> vek vo Bugarija, se tvrdi deka tataro-mongolskiot voda~
> Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik e pratatko na Bugarite.
>
>
"...
Imena na Bulgarskite kniaze
Imena na Bulgarskite Care
..."
ISTORIA NA MAKEDONIA:
> Makedon,
>
> MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
>
> BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
>
> MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
>
>
ZASHTO NE PISHESH NA "MAKEDONSKI", MAKEDONECO ?!?!?!
sp...@erols.com
Nikolay D. Tarkalanov wrote:
Possible to understand = 80% only despite the fact it was not in an east
slavic language
Josif Grezlovski
Jason wrote:
>
> Makedon wrote:
>
> > MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
> >
> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
> >
> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
>
> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
That is not funny at all. The language present-day Macedonians speak is
not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
time. Check it out for yourself. And, no, he is not chauvinist, nor he
is a fool.
--
You can crush all the roses you want, but
You are not going to stop the spring from coming!
Josif Grezlovski
http://www.gate.net/~joegrez/
Makedon
Vassil Karloukovski wrote:
> In article <352467D9...@unforgettable.com>, mak...@unforgettable.com says...
> >
> >Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
> >
> >BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
> ...
>
> >Vo neprocenlivo zna~ajnoto drevno istorisko delo pod naslov
> >,,Imenik na bugarskite hanovi" (napi{ano vo Bugarija vo dale~niot
> >8. vek) za tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-bo`jiot kam{ik se veli
> >deka e ,,pratatko na Bugarite". Toj vo ova delo se sre}ava pod
> >imeto Avitolah,
[Imeto e AVITOHOL, a eto kakvo kazva edna srednovekovna (XIV-XV v.) litovska hronika za
neobiknovenija proizhod na rodonachalnicite na njakoi drevni i po-kysni narodi
(vkljuchitelno i bylgarite): "Ustiages krol' medskij skazal umorit' Kirovi Gaspargovi
sekretarova svoemu abii po nem ne kroleval. Gaspargos nad nim szhalilsja. Tak tezh'
krol' naprednejshij gishpanskij Bolgaros vnuka i siina svoego ... kazal ego ukinuti v
more ale naval'nost' morskaja viikinula ego zhivogo i zdorovogo na bereg, gde ego
elenica dikaja viikormila persemi svoimi. Potom stal on vtoriim carem gishpanskim
kotorogo imja Gobis. Takzhe misikijskogo knjazha albo bolgarskoe ot elenicii biilo
viikormlennoe, na pushtu buduchi zanesennoe na zgublenie. Parisa siina Priamova,
krolevicha trojanovska na pushtu medvedica viihovala ..." ili tova na bylgarski:
"Astiag, kraljat na midijcite, kazal na Gasparg, svoja pisar, da umori Kir, za da ne
caruva sled nego. Gasparg obache go syzhalil. Taka syshto naj-pyrvijat ispanski kral -
Bolgoros, kazal da hvyrljat negovija vnuk i sin v moreto, no morskite vylni go
izhvyrlili zhiv i zdrav na brega, kydeto edna diva syrna go othranila sys svoeto vime.
Posle toj stanal vtori ispanski car, narechen Gobis. TAKA SYSHTO I KNJAZHYT MIZIJSKI
ILI BYLGARSKI BIL OTHRANEN OT SYRNA, SLED KATO GO ZAHVYRLILI V GORSKIJA PUSHTINAK DA
ZAGINE. Paris, sinyt na Priam, prestolonaslednikyt na Troja bil otgledan ot edna mechka
v pushtinaka." Samoto ime AVITOHOL na ezika na Vakhancite, obitavashti techenieto na
rekata Wakhan-darja v Pamir, znachi 'SIN NA SYRNATA, DETE NA SYRNATA' - ot 'avi'=syrna
(roe, deer) i 'tohol, tofl'=dete (child). Na Farsi Kabuli 'avi'=syrna (deer), na
Ishkashimski e 'ahvi,ahui', na Giljanski e 'afi, ahu'. Syshto 'dete' za tjah e 'tohol',
'tyhyl', 'tyfyl', etc. That is - AVITOHOL='the doe's son', and the Proto-Bulgarians
believed their grandparent to have been reared by a doe. ... a kako negovi naslednici
(od negoviot turkski rod >Dulo) sleduvaat hanovite: Irnik (sin na Atila, koj na nekoi
mesta >se sre}ava i pod imeto Ernah, z.m.), Gostun, Kurt i Bezmer, za koi >pi{uva deka,
vo sklad so azijatskata tradicija, imale izbri~eni >glavi. Pod imeto Kurt ovde se
podrazbira bugarskiot han Kubrat, >{to zna~i deka vo ovoj Imenik, Narochno davam celija
Imennik, zashtoto edva li ste go cheli njakoga: "AVITOHOL zhit let 300. Rod emu Doulo.
A let emu dilomtvirem. IRNIK zhit let 150. Rod emu Doulo. A let emu dilomtvirem. GOSTUN
namestnik sii 2 let. Rod emou Ermi. A let emou dohstvirem. KOURT 60 let drzha. Rod emu
Doulo. A let semou shegorvechem. BEZMER tri let. A rod emou Doulo. Sii 5 knez drzhashe
knenzhenie obonou stranu Dounaja let 515 ostrizhenniimi glavami i potom pride na
stranou Dounaja ISPERIH knez tozhde i po sele. ISPERIH knenz 61 leto. Rod emou Doulo. A
let emou verenialem. TERVEL 21 let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou tekouchitem. TVIREM 28
let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou dvanshehtem. SEVAR 15 let. Rod emou Doulo. A let emou
tohaltom. KORMISOSH 17 let. Rod emou Vokil. A let emou shegortvirem sii zhe knez izmeni
rod Doulov rekoshe vihtoun. VINEH 7 let a rod emou Oukil. A let emou imeonshegoralem.
TELEC 3 let. Rod emou Ugain. A let emou smoroalltem. OUMOR 40 dni, Rod emou Oukil. A
let emou dilom toutom." >Makedon, > >MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY > >BUT
NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!! > >MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE
MACEDONIAN!!!!! Take care, Makedon. Mnogo vze da se otrodjavash i gluposti da
prikazvash. Vassil Karloukovski --- http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/3424 ]
Mr. Vasil, please write in English or in Macedonian because I don't
understandany other languages and I understood very little of what
you have written.
Aleksandar Donski is the author of the article and he could be
contacted on following address.
Adresa na Redakcijata vo Makedonija:
Makedon
Stephane Manov wrote:
> Makedon wrote:
> >
> > Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
> >
> > BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
> >
>
> A "makedoncite" sa s chvedski proizhod : vsichkite edni takiva rusi sus
> sini ochi, snajni lude ot severa, proizhojdachti ot taka narechenite
> skandinavski slaviani, neznaino kak ozovali se mejdu tezi huni i varvari
> na Balkanite deto ne im priznavat ia imeto, ia teritoriata, ia ezika, ia
> Ohridskoto ezero.
>
> SM
> bulgarski eskimos
> s maika-indianka ot Ognena zemia i vuicho-aborigen ot Samoa.
Stephane, please write in English or in Macedonian because I don't
understand any other languages and I understood very little of what
Julian Stoev
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Makedon wrote:
|Stephane Manov wrote:
|> Makedon wrote:
|> > Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
|> > BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
|> A "makedoncite" sa s chvedski proizhod : vsichkite edni takiva rusi sus
|> sini ochi, snajni lude ot severa, proizhojdachti ot taka narechenite
|> skandinavski slaviani, neznaino kak ozovali se mejdu tezi huni i varvari
|> na Balkanite deto ne im priznavat ia imeto, ia teritoriata, ia ezika, ia
|> Ohridskoto ezero.
|> SM
|> bulgarski eskimos
|> s maika-indianka ot Ognena zemia i vuicho-aborigen ot Samoa.
|
|
|Stephane, please write in English or in Macedonian because I don't
|understand any other languages and I understood very little of what
|you have written.
Tova si e tvoi problem. Pa interesno e shto togava si reshil, che niakoi
shte te razbere v soc.culture.bulgaria. Da ne bi bulgarite da razbirat
"makedonski", a makedoncite da ne razbirat bulgarski? Ti se izkarvash
po-glupav ot bulgarite.
Da, ama ne. Ia kak hubavo go razbirate daze:-)) kato ima dalavera...
A mezdu drugoto, za edin sredno razvit bulgarin, kakto i makedonec ne e
nikakav problem da razbira i ezika v Chehia, Surbia, Hurvatia, Poland,
Russia, Slovakia. Osobeno pismen! Imashe pri mene edin slovenec. S kef mu
chetiah vestnicite.
| Adresa na Redakcijata vo Makedonija:
|Redakcija "Makedonsko sonce" ul. "Leninova" br.79
Ako beshe na ul. "Stalinova", po-bi i priliagalo:-)
Interesno imate li si tam i ul. "Marxova", "Engelsova" primerno?
|9100 Skopje, Republika Makedonija. Tel / faks: (091) 130-137;
|E-mail: mso...@soros.org.mk
E, az sam siguren, che ti nishto ne si razbral ot tozi post, ama aide...
Zdrave....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julian Stoev <j.h....@ieee.org> - Ph. D. Student
Intelligent Information Processing Lab. - Seoul National University, Korea
Julian Stoev
On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
|Jason wrote:
|> Makedon wrote:
|> > MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
|> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
|> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
|> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
|> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
|> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
|==================
|That is not funny at all. The language present-day Macedonians speak is
|not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
|time. Check it out for yourself. And, no, he is not chauvinist, nor he
|is a fool.
This is amasing! Will you please give a proof or a reference to it? Some
text from this time in his original form and also translated in English
(or French) and in present day Macedonian. Just 2-3 sentences will do the
job perfectly;-) If you have problems with the alphabet, you may try some
JPEG attachment... It will not take more then 5-10 kB. And let's agree in
advance that you don't have in mind only gramatical similarity, because
there is a big _gramatical_ similarity even between English and
Chinese(Mandarin). (Miki, ask your girlfriend and explain the guy) ;-)))
Cheers!
Lazarin Lazarov
Josif Grezlovski <joe...@gate.net> writes:
> The language present-day Macedonians speak is
> not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
> time.
CLEAN MAD !!!
LYNGOS 2
Josif is losing his brains lately........he is telling us <<>That is not funny
at all. The language present-day Macedonians speak is<BR>
>not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's<BR>
>time. Check it out for yourself. And, no, he is not chauvinist, nor he<BR>
>is a fool.<BR>
>-- <BR>>>>>>
ABRE Josef look what your people are posting on the SKOPIAN board at AOL
...........==================READ and learn:
<<< Macedonia - Bulgaria
OFFICIAL INVITATION FOR NEW ROUND OF TALKS
Macedonian Foreign Ministry announced that Bulgaria has sent an official
invitation for continuation of the talks on the language dispute. The first
round of talks took place on an expert level in January in Sofia. The next
phase was planned to take place in Bonn between the Foreign Ministers Hanjiski
and Mihajlova.
As Mihajlova announced, the Bulgarian Parliament has come up with two
acceptable solutions to the issue.
>>>>>
Don't tell me now that the Bulgarian language was also Alexander's
language..............IDIOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LYNGOS 2
--
Regards to all.......L.
Daniel Nikovski
Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> writes:
Makedon,
What Aleksandar Donski has written is perfectly true, and I believe
any Bulgarian would agree with it - Bulgarians are descendants of
the Huns and Attila is the founder of our state tradition. We are
also proud that this is the second oldest state tradition in Europe,
out of those surving to our days, and the oldest Slavic state.
At the same time, ethnically we are more than 90% Slav and less than
10% Turkic. This does not change our identity - we are Bulgarians,
because our Slavic ancestors decided to join Bulgaria and become loyal
subjects of the Hunnic Bulgarian overlords. This happened in Moesia,
Thrace, and Macedonia at different times. In very recent times,
however, the Slavic population of Macedonia reneged and changed their
decision, creating a new Macedonian identity. I personally believe
that this is your business - you are in no way related to the Hunnic
founders of Bulgaria, as Donski's article correctly states, and it is
up to you to decide what you will be called. Certainly we have to
respect this decision of yours. I regret that some other Bulgarians
are trying to convince you that you are Bulgarian too. The Balkan
Slavs that are called Bulgarians chose this by their own will or were
conquered by the Hunnic armies - if you do not want to be Bulgarians,
then you are not Bulgarians. However, you should similarly respect the
decsion of those people in Macedonia, who still choose to be
Buglarians like their relatives in Thracia and Moesia.
As for the language argument, it is obvious that Bulgarian and
Macedonian are the same language - simply two different dialects were
codified as separate literary standards at different times. You
probably know that the Ohrid dialect was one of the candidates for the
principal basis on which Bulgarian was codified.
None of the two countries can claim exclusive ownership of the
language. However, Bulgarian was codified earlier, in the 1870s, while
Macedonian was codified in 1945. The second literary standard
(Macedonian) was created for political reasons and now we, Bulgarians
and Macedonians, have to deal with the situation somehow. It wouldn't
help much if you deny the obvious - we Bulgarians can read Macedonian
and understand everything perfectly, without having studied it.
To me, the situation is quite similar to that of Germany and Austria.
Ethnically the people are very similar, speak the same language, but
have very different state traditions. I know that Austrians do hate to
be called Germans, and similarly I wouldn't call Macedonians
Bulgarians. On your part, you Macedonians can recognize the fact that
we speak the same language, however it might be called, and this would
end the language argument. Then we wouldn't have to write in English
and things would be a bit easier.
Cheers,
--daniel
em...@mail.techno-link.com
Nadpis na Samuil , otkrit suvsem naskoro v Edesa - dneshna Gurcia:
1. V samodurjavnia grad Voden Az Samuil, veren v Hrista
2. Car na Bulgarite i Romeite, ot boga izpraten samodurjec
3. na vsichki strani ot Rashka do Makedonia, Tesalia
4. i Gurcia , vnuk na staria Shishman, koito beshe Kavgan na
5. jitelite na Turnovo, postroih tozi molitven dom, za da
sushtestvuva v vechnostta. Osnovite biaha polojeni v epohata
na Ieremia, koito beshe pruv hristianin ot Melnik.
6. Postroen be (tozi hram) za grehovete i spasenieto na
bulgarite
7. ot prokletia Satana, koito proizhojda ot Konstantinopol.
8. Tozi hram be zavurshen prez 14-tata godina ot caruvaneto mi
s pomoshtta na sveshtennika Gavril, koito e duhoven pastir
na jitelite na Muglen.
9. Napisano prez godina 6497 ot suzdavaneto na sveta (989 g.)
5-ti Indiktion.
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/vod
Makedonia na makedoncite! (Sirech - na minaloto )
Bulgaria na Bulgarite ! (Sirech na Budeshteto )
S Boga !
Ziezi
http://www.techno-link.com/clients/zpage/index.htm
em...@mail.techno-link.com
Makedonsko Sonce ?!
"Bog ne izprashta li dujd ednakvo na vsichki ?
SUSHTO TUI I SLUNCETO NE SVETI LI EDNAKVO NA VSICHKI ?
I ne dishame li ednakvo vsichki vuzduh ?
...
S tia dumi i s oshte mnogo drugi dumi filosofut gi posrami, ostavi gi i si
zamina. "
Iz "Prostranno jitie na Kiril" (Sv.Konstantin Kiril Filosof)
S Boga !
Ziezi
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/5738/
LYNGOS 2
AM I READING PROPERLY ??????? ARE MY EYES CLEAN AN CLEAR ????????
GEE NIKOVSKI................at least someone in here decide to call things
with their proper name. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Salute at least the attempt to express a voice of thruthness, reality,
history, feelings, religion and so on, and on, and on !!!!!!!
I am preparing a posting regarding those ""very resent times"" when the
Slavo-Bulgarians became ............ new-Ma-c-edonians, at least now , I know
that I am going to have a couple of people from the "other" side chearing for
me. I can talk for hours with somebody who is accepting a similar platform.
Maybe if they were more people out there thinking in a similar pragmatic way, a
solution --fair to al inhabitantsl-- for the land who's name is in dispute,
could be found really fast, and as a result it's people could go toward
progress an hour earlier.
Makedon,
Cheers,
--daniel
>>>>>
Regards.........LYNGOS 2...@aol.com
George Sofoklis Tsapanos
Regards to all.......L.
Josif Grezlovski
Julian Stoev wrote:
>
> On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
> |Jason wrote:
> |> Makedon wrote:
> |> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
> |> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
> |> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
> |> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
> |> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
> |==================
>
> This is amasing! Will you please give a proof or a reference to it? Some
> text from this time in his original form and also translated in English
> (or French) and in present day Macedonian. Just 2-3 sentences will do the
> job perfectly;-) If you have problems with the alphabet, you may try some
> JPEG attachment... It will not take more then 5-10 kB. And let's agree in
> advance that you don't have in mind only gramatical similarity, because
> there is a big _gramatical_ similarity even between English and
> Chinese(Mandarin). (Miki, ask your girlfriend and explain the guy) ;-)))
>
> Cheers!
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Julian Stoev <j.h....@ieee.org> - Ph. D. Student
> Intelligent Information Processing Lab. - Seoul National University, Korea
I will refer you to Mr. Beltchev who has documented evidence on the
subject. Momentarily I have forgotten the title. In due time, it will be
posted here on ANM.
Josif Grezlovski
Lazarin Lazarov wrote:
>
> Josif Grezlovski <joe...@gate.net> writes:
> > The language present-day Macedonians speak is
> > not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
> > time.
>
==============
Cleanly, oblivious. But that is another matter. To you, the world
disappears as soon as you close your eyes. If you don't see it, then it
must not exist.
Makedon
Julian Stoev wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
> |Jason wrote:
> |> Makedon wrote:
> |> > MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
> |> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
> |> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
> |> That's funny. Then why do present-day Macedonians speak a dialect
> |> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
> |> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
> |> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
> |==================
> |That is not funny at all. The language present-day Macedonians speak is
> |not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
> |time. Check it out for yourself. And, no, he is not chauvinist, nor he
> |is a fool.
>
> This is amasing! Will you please give a proof or a reference to it? Some
> text from this time in his original form and also translated in English
> (or French) and in present day Macedonian. Just 2-3 sentences will do the
> job perfectly;-) If you have problems with the alphabet, you may try some
> JPEG attachment... It will not take more then 5-10 kB. And let's agree in
> advance that you don't have in mind only gramatical similarity, because
> there is a big _gramatical_ similarity even between English and
> Chinese(Mandarin). (Miki, ask your girlfriend and explain the guy) ;-)))
>
> Cheers!
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Julian Stoev <j.h....@ieee.org> - Ph. D. Student
> Intelligent Information Processing Lab. - Seoul National University, Korea
Have a read of this WebPage:
http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce175/tekst1_va/vasilil.htm
Makedon
Lazarin Lazarov wrote:
> Josif Grezlovski <joe...@gate.net> writes:
> > The language present-day Macedonians speak is
> > not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
> > time.
>
> CLEAN MAD !!!
Makedon
your opinion.
LYNGOS 2
ABRE MAKEDON.............DANIEL IS A BULGAR !!!!!!!!! HOW IN
THE HELL ARE YOU EXPECTING A BULGAR TO UNDERSTAND ALEXANDER'S
LANGUAGE................................lelelelelelelelelelele
LYNGOS 2
Regards to all.......L.
Julian Dontchev
In soc.culture.bulgaria Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
: BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
And are you the same balloonhead who pretends *not* to understand
Bulgarian but only "Macedonian". Gee, as there is such a thing as
"Macedonian Language".
Would you be so kind as to tell as what kind of trick you know so that
you can type on a keyboard with a straightjacket on.
Daniel Nikovski
In article <3526D228...@unforgettable.com>,
Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------4E1209D0DED4DB868F6C2222
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Have a read of this Web Page:
>http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce175/tekst1_va/vasilil.htm
>Read the article, think about the issues, viewpoints, and then give us
>your opinion.
Well, Makedon, this is certainly an interesting article, but it does
not seem to be relevant to the issue that Bulgarians are descendants
of the Huns and that many people of Slavic origin, including those
in Moesia, Thrace, and Macedonia, have chosen to be called Bulgarians
because of the power of the Bulgarian state.
Otherwise, the article is quite interesting. It seems reasonable that
the old Macedonians and the Thracians have been very close and have
spoken similar or identical languages. To claim that Thracians are
Macedonians, though, is quite unbelievable:
> Drevnite Makedonci bile vo
> tesni vrski so Trakijcite.- I Trakijcite i Makedoncite i Ilirite i Sarmatite
> i Antite i Lelezite i Pelazgite, se drevno makedonski plemiwa koi
> zboruvale ist jazik.
If these were Macedonian tribes, why everybody else called them Thracians?
> Na ovie prostori
> makedonskiot narod ima dokazen materijal za kulturen kontinuitet
> najmalku od 8.000 do 9.000 godini.
As for this claim, I am afraid that this is not very credible. I do not
see any continuity between the state tradition of the Old Macedonians,
and the current state of Macedonia, which was established less than
ten years ago. On the contrary, the state tradition of Bulgaria is
at least 13 centuries old, since the time of Asparukh, and based on what
*you* are saying about our Hunnic origins, it might be 16 or even
27 centuries old, if you take into account the oldest records about
Asian Bulgarians in Pamir.
There is also a part about the Cyrillic alphabet, which is used as
an argument that Macedonian is not Bulgarian. I don't see the
relation. The original alphabet was indeed used to record the
Solun dialect, but this does not define a language. Shorthly after
that the alphabet was adopted as the official Bulgarian alphabet.
At that time Macedonia was part of Bulgaria and hence the Ohrid
literary school is purely Bulgarian.
As for your quarrels with the Greeks about whether the old Macedonians
were Hellenic or not, this has no relevance to the relationship between
present-day Macedonians and Buglarians. So, most of the article is
irrelevant to what we were talking about.
Cheers,
--daniel
>> > ,,Obrazuvane na b=CDlgarskata narodnost," Sofija 1971 g., i vo:
>> > ,,Hristomati=D4 po istori=D4 na B=CDlgari=D4," Sofija 1964 g.).Odime
>> > Vo Historia slowian poludnio wych i zachodnich (Warszawa, 1977 g.), z=
>--------------4E1209D0DED4DB868F6C2222
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>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="vasilil.htm"
>Content-Base: "http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce17
> 5/tekst1_va/vasilil.htm"
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML//EN">
><html>
>
><head>
>
><meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 2.0">
><title>VASIL_IL</title>
></head>
>
><body background="Pozad_levo.jpg" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>
><table border="0" width="100%">
> <tr>
> <td align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#000000"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>RAZGOVOR
> SO GOSPODINOT VASIL IQOV, DIREKTOR NA ZAVODOT ZA ZA[TITA
> NA SPOMENICITE NA KULTURATA NA GRAD SKOPJE</strong></font></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td align="center" colspan="2"><font size="5" face="Macedonian Tms"><strong>DREVNO MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK -
> OSNOVA NA SOVREMENIOT MAKEDONSKI I SITE TAKANARE^ENI
> SLOVENSKI JAZICI</strong></font></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td colspan="2"><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Razgovaral
> Todor PETROV</strong></font></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td valign="top" width="120"><img src="n_1n.jpg" border="1" width="150" height="157"><p><a href="slika1.htm"><img src="n_2.gif" border="1" width="120" height="83"></a></p>
> <p><a href="slika2.htm"><img src="n_3_i.jpg" border="1" width="120" height="105"></a></p>
> <p><a href="slika4.htm"><img src="n_4.gif" border="1" width="120" height="83"></a></p>
> </td>
> <td valign="top" width="80%"><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong><u>Vo
> vesnikot "Dnevnik" be{e objavena vesta deka na
> Internet se pojavila edna informacija od in`.arh. Vasil
> Iqov, direktor na Zavodot za za{tita na spomenicite na
> kulturata na grad Skopje, spored koja so izvr{eni
> paleografski i paleolingvisti~ki istra`uvawa doka`uva
> deka `itelite od Makedonija, Srbija, Bugarija ... se
> potomci na "narod {to 7.000 godini p.n.e. zboruval i
> pi{uval na dreven makedonski jazik i pismo". Spored
> "Dnevnik" vo pra{awe bil "egejski
> jazik" nare~en i za "dreven makedonski
> jazik", kako i deka teorijata na in`.arh. Vasil Iqov
> se temeli na dokazi {to poteknuvaat 25.000 godini pred
> na{ata era. Oddelni makedonski nau~nici me|u koi Eleonora
> Petrova i akademik Petar Ilievski negovite najnovi nau~ni
> dostignuvawa vedna{ gi proglasija za amaterizam i
> diletantizam. Toa be{e povod "Makedonsko sonce"
> da pobara izjava od in`.arh. Vasil Iqov {to Vi ja
> prenesuvame vo ovoj i naredniot broj</u></strong></font><p><font face="Macedonian Helv">Ne se raboti za nikakvo blefirawe
> ili nekakov diletantizam, tuku se raboti za drevna
> makedonistika. - Vo centralniot del na Balkanot, kade {to
> se nao|a jadroto na nekoga{nata Makedonska mitolo{ka i
> istoriska Imperija i jadroto na etni~kata teritorija na
> Makedonija, sme imale organizirano op{testvo i dr`ava
> u{te od vremeto na neolitot. - Mo`eme da prezentirame
> dokazen materijal za najmalku 30 do 35 zetovi od periodot
> na mezolitot pa s# do 900-ta godina p.n.e. - Drevnite
> Makedonci bile vo tesni vrski so Trakijcite. - I
> Trakijcite i Makedoncite i Ilirite i Sarmatite i Antite i
> Lelezite i Pelazgite, se drevno makedonski plemiwa koi
> zboruvale ist jazik. - Tvrdinata Akropol vo centarot na
> Atina ne ja izgradile Grcite, tuku Pelazgite. - Za nas
> Irodot ne mo`e da bide "tatko na istorijata",
> bidej}i nie imame postari pi{ani dokumenti od
> takanare~enata Irodotova istorija. - Od Irodot poteknuva
> zabludata deka Grcite gi opismenile site narodi na
> Balkanot i deka navodno Grcite vo devettiot vek p.n.e. go
> zemaat pismoto od Fenikijcite, deka navodno so {ireweto
> na trgovijata Grcite go {irat pismoto itn. - Makedonija,
> t.e. Balkanot e lulka na evropskata i svetskata
> pismenost! - Kako mo`at Francuzite da veruvaat deka
> Grcite gi opismenile niv vo devettiot vek pred na{ata
> era, koga populacijata na nivnata teritorija u{te 13.000
> do 10.000 godini pred na{ata era znaela za fonetsko
> pismo?! - Vo istorijata ne postoi ni eden
> "Helenist", od prosta pri~ina {to poimot
> "Helenizam" e produkt na istorijata na
> umetnosta, a ne na istorijata. - Vo istorijata ne postoi
> terminot "helenizam"Gospodine Iqov, za {to
> vsu{nost stanuva zbor vo vrska so</font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Va{ite informacii
> na Internet i koj e Va{iot odgovor na obvinuvawata koi
> vedna{ usledija na Va{a smetka?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>In`. arh. Vasil
> IQOV:</strong> Pred s#, informacijata koja a servira{e
> "Dnevnik" ne e sosema korektna, so ogled na
> faktot {to ne e obaven razgovor i so avtorot na ovie
> informacii. Vtoro, siot toj materijal koj se podgotvuva
> za Internet preku firmata "Unet- internet" s#
> u{te ne e celosno zavr{en. Mislam deka e vo zavr{na faza,
> me|utoa ne e pu{ten vo Internet. Treto, novinarot koj go
> napi{al ovoj tekst ne se sna{ol najdobro vo materijalot.
> Ednostavno gi ispome{al rabotite. Se raboti ne za
> materijalna kultura stara 7.000 godini kako {to stoi vo
> naslovot na napisot, tuku za materijalna kultura koja vo
> kontinuitet e prisutna na ovie makedonski prostori
> najmalku 9.000 godini - i toa najmalku 7000 godini pred
> na{ata era i u{te 2.000 godini od na{ata era. Na ovie
> prostori makedonskiot narod ima dokazen materijal za
> kulturen kontinuitet najmalku od 8.000 do 9.000 godini.
> Se raboti za drevno makedonsko pismo i drevno makedonski
> jazik {to pretstavuvaat osnova na sovremeniot makedonski
> jazik, no i osnova na site drugi takanare~eni slovenski
> jazici. Site ovie de{ifrirani tekstovi, a gi ima pove}e
> od pedesetina, poteknuvaat od razli~ni delovi na
> etni~kata teritorija na Makedonija, od nekoga{nata
> mitolo{ka dr`ava ili mitolo{ko Carstvo na Makedoncite.
> Istra`uva~kite raboti {to gi ima napraveno profesor d-r
> Ta{ko Bel~ev, a i ovie istra`uva~ki raboti {to jas gi
> rabotam, a verojatno i posle nas }e ima drugi koi }e se
> vklu~at vo istra`uvaweto na drevnata makedonska
> civilizacija, koja vo sebe zadol`itelno gi opfa}a
> makedonskoto pismo, makedonskiot jazik i makedonskata
> kultura, }e gi dovedat site objektivni istra`uva~i do
> soznanieto deka ne se raboti za nikakvo blefirawe ili
> nekakov diletantizam, tuku deka se raboti za opipliva
> materijalna kultura, za drevna makedonistika koja sekoj
> istra`uva~ mo`e da ja proveri so metodolo{ka postapka
> koja e proverliva i doka`liva. Ne se raboti za nikakva
> geometriska dekoracija kako {to se obiduva da ni tvrdi
> g-|a Eleonora Petrova, nitu pak se raboti za nekakov
> diletantizam kako {to se obiduva da doka`e g-din Petar
> Ilievski, tuku vo pra{awe e edna kompleksna nau~na
> materija koja ne mo`e da se re{i so grimasi, so maftawe
> so race ili so naru{uvawe na dignitetot na koj i da e
> nau~en ispituva~, nitu so zabludite od </font><font face="Arial">XIX</font><font face="Macedonian Helv"> i </font><font face="Arial">XX</font><font face="Macedonian Helv"> vek,
> tuku so nov nau~en pristap i so inventiven trud. Kamo taa
> sre}a da se vklu~at pove}e lingvisti vo obrabotkata na
> ovaa materija vo vrska so pismoto, jazikot i kulturata na
> drevnite Makedonci.</font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Kade i dali
> voop{to mo`e da se najde toj dokazen materijal i dali se
> raboti za pogolemi de{ifrirani tekstovi?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>V.IQOV:</strong>
> Dokazniot materijal go ima nasekade {irum teritorijata na
> Republika Makedonija, a po{iroko i na balkansko-
> anadolskiot kulturen kompleks mo`e da se najde od Dunav
> do Krit i od Jadransko more do Pergam i Palmira {to na
> prv pogled izgleda prili~no golema teritorija. Konkretno,
> nie vo Makedonija imame izvr{eno arheolo{ki istra`uvawa
> na pove}e lokaliteti, no tie {to se napraveni vo
> lokalitetot "Cerje", blizu do seloto Govrlevo,
> se od isklu~itelno zna~ewe. Arheologot Milo{ Bilbija od
> Muzejot na grad Skopje, na vtoriot horizont na `iveewe na
> neolitskata naselba ima pronajdeno kerami~ki pe~at {to go
> datira so 6.000 godini pred na{ata era. Na toj kerami~ki
> pe~at decidno mo`eme da pro~itame "S’l s bo
> s’m" {to }e ka`e "Sal so boga sum"
> ili "Sal so boga sam" vo zavisnost od toa kako
> }e se otvori temniot vokal vo zborot
> "s’m", dali kako "sum" so
> "u" ili kako "sam" so "a".
> Drugiot dokazen materijal, isto taka, e od lokalitetot
> "Cerje" blizu do seloto Govrlevo, koj se
> odnesuva na ovalniot metalen pe~at so starost od 1.500
> godini pred na{ata era. Ne mo`am da se slo`am so
> interpretacijata {to ja dava g- |a Eleonora Petrova deka
> se raboti za nekoja geometriska dekoracija, nitu pak so
> interpretacijata {to ja dava novinarot na
> "Dnevnik", Robert Mitevski, deka navodno se
> raboti za eden znak. Tuka ima pove}e znaci i tie ne se
> obi~ni geometriski simboli, tuku toa se bukvi od drevnata
> makedonska azbuka. Stanuva zbor za nad pedesetina
> de{ifrirani tekstovi od edna po{iroka teritorija, od
> Lepenski Vir vo dene{na Republika Srbija do Krit vo
> dene{na Republika Grcija i od Magli} vo dene{na Republika
> Albanija pa s# do Plovdiv vo dene{na Republika Bugarija.
> Imame dosta opipliv materijal od Osin~ani, kade {to so
> istra`uva~kite raboti na teren, napraveni 1994 godina i
> de{ifriraniot materijal vo 1994, 1995, 1996 i 1997
> godina, ve}e so sigurnost mo`eme da tvrdime deka imame
> nekade okolu 27 nadgrobni spomenici napi{ani so drevno
> makedonsko pismo i so dreven makedonski kontinuiran i
> pove}e fleksiven jazik. Toa e period na matrijarhatot, na
> krajot na mezolitot i po~etokot na neolitot.
> Interpretacijata koja ni ja dava oficijalnata arheologija
> ne korespondira so de{ifriraniot materijal so ogled na
> toa {to arheolozite insistiraat da veruvame deka toga{
> populacijata bila na takvo nisko nivo na razvoj {to odvaj
> mo`ele da se ishranat, zna~i bile obi~ni sobira~i na
> hrana. Me|utoa, de{ifriraniot materijal i artefaktite na
> materijalnata kultura od krajot na mezolitot i po~etokot
> na neolitot zboruvaat, deka na po{irokata teritorija na
> Balkanot, konkretno vo centralniot del kade {to se nao|a
> jadroto na nekoga{nata Makedonska mitolo{ka i istoriska
> Imperija i jadroto na etni~kata teritorija na Makedonija,
> sme imale organizirano op{testvo, sme imale dr`ava u{te
> od vremeto na neolitot. I toa voop{to ne treba da ne
> ~udi. Ako arheolozite veruvaat deka vo Pakistan mo`elo da
> ima dr`ava vo po~etokot na neolitot, zo{to toga{
> Makedonija, koja se nao|ala na isto takvo ramni{te, a
> mo`ebi i na povisoko, da ne mo`ela da ima dr`ava koga
> imala svoj pe~at, svoe pismo, svoj jazik. Nie denes
> mo`eme da prezentirame dokazen materijal za najmalku 30
> do 35 zetovi od periodot na krajot na mezolitot pa s# do
> 900-ta godina pred na{ata era, koi zetuvale, t.e.
> vladeele na ovie prostori. Sledstveno, tie vladeteli ne
> se vikale ni "kralevi", ni "carevi",
> tuku se vikale "zetovi". Zna~i, toa e period na
> zetuvawe. Zetuvawe kako najstara forma na pravno i
> demokratskovladeewe. Poimot zet i zetuvawe najdocna mo`e
> da se sretne kaj Crnogorcite vo nivnata istorija od 10-ot
> do 13-ot vek. Zatoa i nivnata dr`ava se vikala Zeta. Vo
> Makedonija vo vremeto na neolitot imavme dosta zetovi. Na
> eden natpis od Osin~ani bukvalno stoi "Ea zet e
> Trak" {to zna~i "Nejziniot Zet e Trakiec".
> Toa jasno stava do znaewe deka drevnite Makedonci bile vo
> tesni vrski so Trakijcite, deka i Trakijcite i
> Makedoncite i Ilirite i Sarmatite i Antite i Lelezite i
> Pelazgite, zboruvale na sli~en ili na ist jazik. </font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv">I od tie pri~ini, tvrdam
> deka toa se drevno makedonski plemiwa koi zboruvale ist
> prajazik. So eden zbor, nie denes mo`eme sosema
> argumentirano da se isproektirame vo dlabo~inata na
> vekovite i toa najmalku nekade do krajot na mezolitot i
> po~etokot na neolitot. I argumentirano mo`eme da tvrdime
> deka od krajot na mezolitot i po~etokot na neolitot sme
> imale dr`avi, sme imale organizirani op{testva, sme imale
> prajazik, sme imale glasovno pismo, ili kako {to miluvaat
> jazi~arite da ka`at "fonetsko" pismo. Inaku na
> gr~ki "foni" e isto {to i na makedonski
> "glas", poradi {to jas velam glasovno pismo.
> Kako dokaz na moeto tvrdewe }e go navedam i za~uvaniot
> tekst od 1385 godina p.n.e. koj glasi: "Ne si i ti
> Utig mafnal so race koga jas Ig'l Al ja uni{tiv Ege so
> nejziniot {tit osumte zeti." Se pra{uvam: Kako da i
> veruvame na na{ata sovremena istoriografija deka drevnata
> Makedonska dr`ava e osnovana vo </font><font face="Arial">VII</font><font face="Macedonian Helv"> i</font><font face="Arial"> VI</font><font face="Macedonian Helv"> vek p.n.e., koga prestolninata na
> drevnite Makedonci Ege, so nejziniot {tit osumte zeti,
> bila razurnata vo 1385 godina p.n.e.? Akademik Petar
> Ilievski Va{ite dokazi gi proglasuva za diletantizam. </font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Koj e Petar
> Ilievski i so {to toj Ve pobiva odnosno etiketira za
> diletant?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>V.IQOV:</strong>
> Akademik Petar Ilievski vo "Makedonsko vreme"
> ima objaveno eden tekst koj ja zafa}a materijata nare~ena
> paleolingvistika ili paleografija, jas bi rekol nauka za
> starite jazici i za stariot na~in na pi{uvawe. Toj se
> obiduva da blefira so takanare~enoto linearno A i
> linearno B pismo, odnosno se obiduva da blefira so
> takanare~enoto slikovno A i slikovno B pismo. Isto taka,
> se obide da blefira i so eneolitskata glinena plo~ka od
> Grade{nica, pronajdena vo blizina na gradot Vraca,
> Republika Bugarija, t.e. blizu do Dunav, koja ja objavil
> so inverzo ordine, {to zna~i so najobi~no svrtuvawe, pa,
> pravi nekakvi sporedbi so takanare~enoto linearno A i
> linearno B pismo i na kraj ni{to ne poka`al. Me|utoa, taa
> glinena plo~ka od Grade{nica, ja imaat otkopano
> bugarskite arheolozi 1969 godina, 1970 godina e objavena
> vo "B'lgarska arheologija" i toa e eden
> izvonreden tekst kade {to ima edno ~etvorosti{ie.
> Bugarskiot lingvist Vladimir \or|iev, za kogo imam golemo
> po~ituvawe so ogled na toa {to e golem poznava~
> nabugarskiot literaturen jazik i na etimologijata, i pod
> ~ija redakcija se pe~ateni 4-5 tomovi na etimolo{kiot
> re~nik na bugarskiot jazik, koga ja objavi glinenata
> plo~ka od Grade{nica tamu videl samo prsti, lakti,
> sekir~iwa, bastun~iwa itn i tie gi sporedil so
> takanare~enoto liearno A i linearno B pismo, i
> takanare~enoto slikovno A i slikovno B pismo, kako {to
> toa go napravil mnogu podocna i g-dinot Petar Ilievski, i
> do{ol do zaklu~ok deka toa ne mo`e da podle`i na
> de{ifrirawe. Zna~i ne mo`e da se de{ifrira i ne mo`e
> pravilno da se interpretira. No, od 1969-1970 godina
> dosega pominale prili~no godini i nie denes sme vo
> sostojba da ka`eme deka tamu nema nikakvi bastun~iwa,
> nikakvi sekir~iwa, nikakvi prsti i lakti, tuku imame
> glasovno pismo, imame bukvi i fiksiran govor na na{ite
> predci i treba da sedneme i da gi pro~itame. Ako go
> znaeme klu~ot kako se de{ifrira toa pismo i kakov bil
> glasovniot sistem na drevno makedonskiot jazik, toga{ nie
> mo`eme da gi pro~itame site ovie tekstovi od periodot na
> neolitot, eneolitot i od podocne`noto istorisko vreme. </font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Koe e Va{eto
> razmisluvawe za ~etiritomniot re~nik na staroslovenski
> jazik vo Praga i dali voop{to postoi staroslovenski jazik
> i pismo, imaj}i predvid deka pove}e od 40 slavisti koi
> prisustvuvale na promocijata na ova kapitalo delo
> konstatirale deka staroslovenskiot jazik i pismo bile
> ve{ta~ki?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>V.IQOV: </strong>Vo
> toa e problemot. Za {to vsu{nost se raboti sega? Sakaat
> da ni doka`at deka na{iot jazik, sovremeniot makedonski
> jazik, ne postoi, bidej}i navodno toj e bugarski?! Pokraj
> toa sakaat da ni doka`at deka ne sme imale ni
> srednovekoven jazik, zaradi toa {to vo reformata na
> jazikot i pismoto {to ja napravile Svetite bra}a Kiril i
> Metodij za osnova go zele solunskiot dijalekt. Zna~i,
> sakaat da ni doka`at deka solunskiot dijalekt de fakto e
> ve{ta~ki jazik. Od ova taka proizleguva. Osven, ako
> serviranata informacija ne e nekoja fabrikacija na
> novinarot od "Dnevnik", Robert Mitevski. Za
> drevno makedonskiot jazik, velat, toa e non-sens, toj ne
> postoi, taka barem ni serviraat, zatoa {to toga{ navodno
> na ovie prostori mo`el da postoi samo gr~kiot jazik i
> nikakov drug jazik. Me|utoa, Grcite se produkt na
> asimilacija pome|u Danajcite i del od drevno makedonskite
> plemiwa. I zatoa jas velam deka nie so Grcite sme bra}a
> ili podbra}a, kako {to sme bra}a ili podbra}a so
> Italijancite. Zo{to? Zatoa {to Etrurcite oti{le od ovde
> na Apeninskiot Poluostrov po porazot na Troja. Posle
> Trojanskata bitka do{le vo Makedonija i eden del od tie
> drevni makedonski plemiwa - Makedoncite, Peoncite,
> Dardancite - site bile na stranata naTrojancite. Zo{to?
> Zatoa {to site tie se makedonski plemiwa. Brigite koi
> ottuka oti{le vo Mala Azija, tamu oformile ogromno
> carstvo koe se vika Frigisko carstvo. Zna~i od Brigi,
> stanale Frigi. Promeneta e samo edna bukva. E, sega,
> gospo|ata Eleonora Petrova vo nejzinata disertacija,
> drevno makedonskoto pleme Brigi go napravi najstar narod
> koj bil pod dlaboko vlijanie na Vin~a, a vo Vin~a `iveele
> Vindite. Vo teritorijata na dene{na Egejska Makedonija,
> na prostorot pome|u Voden, Kostur i Solun `iveele
> Brigite. Stanuva zbor za vtoriot i prviot milenium pred
> na{ata era. Ako na tie prostori `iveele drevno makedonski
> plemiwa; ako Danajcite, a Grcite miluvaat da se
> identifikuvaat so niv, iako Danajcite se del od
> "pomorskite narodi" koj doa|a od dene{en Irak,
> od dene{na Sirija, {to zna~i imaat arapski gen od 12-13
> vek pred na{ata era, a spored drugi od krajot na 12 i
> po~etokot na 11 vek pred na{ata era, pa zatoa borbata na
> makedonskiot narod za sprotivstavuvawe na bilo kakva
> asimilacija i uni{tuvawe e stara preku 3.000 godini; ako
> Trojanskata bitka e nekade 1193 do 1183 godina pred
> na{ata era, barem spored tie podatoci {to gi dava
> istoriografijata, me|u niv i Eratosten, najgolemiot
> nau~nik na Aleksandriskata biblioteka, koj vo tretiot vek
> pred na{ata era tvrdi deka Troja bila osvoena vo 1184
> godina pred na{ata era; vo toj slu~aj treba da smetame
> deka Danajcite, kako del od toj "pomorski
> narod", doa|ale i gi osvojuvale ju`nite predeli na
> drevna Makedonija, se misli na del od Peloponez i
> Egejskiot Arhipelag. Ovie stapile vo kontakt so drevno
> makedonskite plemiwa, a toa mo`eme da go doznaeme od
> Irodot, t.e. kako {to nie denes go vikame Herodot, iako
> toj se vikal Irodot. Irodot tvrdi deka Helenite navodno
> zboruvale nasekade na ist jazik. Me|utoa, koga ni zboruva
> za Jonija, toj tamu delumno ni naveduva deka navodno
> Helenite zboruvale na ~etiri jazici, {to zna~i stanuva
> dosta problemati~no negovoto prethodno tvrdewe. Koga
> zboruva za Lelezite, a osobeno koga zboruva za Pelazgite,
> toj Pelazgite gi narekuva "avtenti~en ati~ki
> narod", a za Helenite veli deka tie vo po~etokot
> bile malubroen i slab narod. No, otkako gi asimilirale
> varvarite, a pred s# Pelazgite, tie stanale mnogubroen i
> silen narod. Sledstveno, Helenite se produkt na
> asimilacija pome|u Danajcite i drevno-makedonskite
> plemiwa Pelazgi, Lelezi i Anti. Antite, pak, od svoja
> strana, kako eponimika ja imaat Atina, {to zna~i taa e
> bogiwa, pred s#, na drevno-makedonskoto pleme Anti. Koga
> Irodot ni zboruva za Atinskiot Akropol, toj veli deka
> Atinskiot Akropol e "Pelazgiski grad". Zna~i
> tvrdinata vo centarot na Atina ne ja izgradile Grcite,
> tuku ja izgradile Pelazgite, zatoa {to Irodot ili Herodot
> tvrdi deka taa e "Pelazgiski grad". Ako trgneme
> od ovie informacii, ako gi imame predvid site drevni
> makedonski letopisi od krajot na neolitot, pa s# do V vek
> p.n.e., toga{ so pravo mo`eme da tvrdime deka za nas
> Irodot ne mo`e da bide "tatko na istorijata",
> bidej}i nie imame postari pi{ani dokumenti od
> takanare~enata Irodotova istorija. Me|utoa, nie go
> po~ituvame Irodot za site onie mnogubrojni i raznovrsni,
> ~estopati i kontradiktorni informacii koi toj gi
> prisobral, ni gi sistematiziral i ni gi serviral i
> blagodarej}i na toa nie i den denes mo`eme niv da gi
> koristime.</font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>A, za ~ij se
> smeta Irodot?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv">V.IQOV: Irodot e Jonec.
> Dene{nata istorija nego go smeta za "tatko na
> istorijata", a Hetitite imale istori~ari u{te 1.700
> g.p.n.e. Od Irodot poteknuva zabludata deka Grcite gi
> opismenile sitenarodi na Balkanot i deka navodno Grcite
> vo devettiot vek p.n.e. go zemaat pismoto od Fenikijcite,
> deka navodno so {ireweto na trgovijata Grcite go {irat
> pismoto itn. Me|utoa od dene{en aspekt, od aspekt na ovaa
> faktografija {to nie ja imame, kako materijalna kultura,
> mo`eme da tvrdime deka tie raboti {to ni gi servira
> Irodot ne koresponidiraat so materijalnata kultura do
> koja{to doa|ame so arheolo{kite iskopuvawa. Fakti~ki
> treba da nastane odredena revizija na negovite iskazi vo
> vrska so potekloto na pismoto i {ireweto na pismenosta.
> Imeno, Makedonija, t.e. Balkanot e lulka na evropskata i
> svetskata pismenost. </font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>Koi dosega
> poznati teorii se pobivaat so ovie va{i otkritija?</strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>V.IQOV:</strong>
> Se pobivaat pove}e teorii. Prvo, deka Grcite ne se
> opismenuva~i na narodite od Evropa, zatoa {to eden Piet#
> u{te vo 1896 godina ima objaveno eden izvonreden
> materijal od pe{terata Mas De Azil kade {to ni dava
> jazi~ni edinici {to korespondiraat so site onie jazi~ni
> edinici {to nie gi sre}avame vo Osin~ani, vo Govrlevo, vo
> Sko~ivirskata klisura, vo Dolno Dupeni, vo Kratovo, vo
> Kumanovo, na bregovite na Kosturskoto ezero, vo Korint,
> vo Krit itn, zatoa {to toj jazik {to postoel vo vremeto
> na neolitot denes e najblizok so sovremeniot makedonski
> jazik. Piet# site tie navodi {to gi imal objaveno i tie
> znaci {to smetal deka mo`at da imaat razli~ni vrednosti,
> da ka`eme deka go izrazuvaat simbolot na sonceto, deka
> imaat navodno broj~ani vrednosti od 1.000, 10.000,
> 100.000 itn, denes nie mo`eme niv da gi identifikuvame
> kako znaci {to pripa|aat na edno fonetsko pismo, odnosno
> na edno glasovno pismo i deka tie znaci fakti~ki se bukvi
> od toa glasovno pismo. So ogled na toa {to starosta koja
> ja servira{e Piet# e nekade 25.000 godini, dolgo vreme vo
> naukata se veruva{e deka najstarite grafiti vo Evropa
> bile so starost od 25.000 godini. Me|utoa, so
> dopolnitelni istra`uva~ki raboti vo sedumdesettite i
> osumdesettite godini e potvrdeno deka starosta na tie
> znaci ne e 25.000 godini, tuku 13.000 do 10.000 godini
> pred na{ata era. I da e taka, toa e sepak mnogu postar
> period od devetti vek pred na{ata era i zatoa so pravo
> mo`eme da gi pra{ame i Francuzite, kako mo`at da veruvaat
> deka Grcite gi opismenile niv vo devettiot vek pred
> na{ata era, koga populacijata na nivnata teritorija u{te
> 13.000 do 10.000 godini pred na{ata era znaela za
> fonetsko pismo?! [to se odnesuva za otkritijata vo
> Kostursko, profesorot za praistoriska arheologija na
> Aristoteloviot univerzitet vo Solun, profesorot \or|os H.
> Hurmuzijadis 1996 godina ima izdadeno edna publikacija
> koja glasi: "To Dispilio Kastorjas - Enas limneos
> praistorikos ikismos" {to }e re~e "Dupjak
> Kosturski - Edna ezerska praistoriska naselba". Se
> raboti za publikacija posvetena za edno nakolno
> `iveali{te na bregot na Kosturskoto ezero kade {to na
> prvata stranica ima dadeno eden izvonreden praistoriski
> tekst. Profesorot \or|os H. Hurmuzijadis tvrdi deka so
> metodata C-14 e utvrdena starosta i taa starost iznesuva
> 5.260 godini pred na{ata era. Na{a sre}a e {to profesorot
> \or|os H. Hurmuzijadis ne znael da go pro~ita ovoj tekst
> i da ni go servira. Nie nemu deneska mo`eme da mu bideme
> blagodarni zatoa {to i ovoj tekst korespondira so site
> drugi naodi koi nie gi nao|ame na teritorijata na
> Republika Makedonija. A, toa zna~i deka 5.260-ta godina
> pred na{ata era na bregovite na Kosturskoto ezero `iveele
> drevni Makedonci so ogled na toa {to na taa drvena {ti~ka
> decidno pi{uva "[pel sedmo kol{te" {to }e re~e
> "[upel sedmo koli{te", {to zna~i
> "[upel" e poim za mesto, naselba koja vo
> neolitot se nao|a do mestoto blizu do dene{noto selo
> "Dupjak". Za da ne ni go ka`e gospodinot
> Hurmuzijadis deka toa selo se vika Dupjak ni go dava
> terminot, odnosno toponimot spored sega{nava nametnata
> gr~ka toponimija i na poslednata stranica od taa bro{ura
> ni servira deka toa mesto se vika Dispilio, {to zna~i
> "Dvojna pe{tera". Me|utoa i "Spilja"
> pak ne e na gr~ki zatoa {to nie imame [piqe. Grkot nema
> "{", pa "{"-to go pretvoril vo
> "s", i taka fakti~ki dobiva "Spilja".
> Vo neposredna blizina nie imame selo Dupjak, koj kako
> toponim se obrazuva od poimot "dupka". Zna~i
> "[pel" e od "{uplina", Dupjak e od
> "dupka" a vo neposredna blizina go imame i
> gradot Hrupi{ta ili Rupi{ta koj svoeto ime go vadi od
> "hrupa" ili "rupa". Site tie toponimi
> imaat sinonimska osnova. Spored toa, mo`eme da tvrdime
> deka vo 5.260-ta godina pred na{ata era Makedoncite
> znaele da koristat i drveni konstrukcii, znaele da pravat
> drveni `iveali{ta i znaele da pravat nakolni ezerski
> `iveali{ta, a drvenata {ti~ka so dreven makedonski natpis
> se odnesuva za sedmoto nakolno `iveali{te. Inaku vkupno
> gi imalo osum so site onie istra`uva~ki raboti {to gi
> imaat napraveno arheolozite od 1853 godina, pa zavr{no so
> 1996 godina koga e objavena i ovaa bro{ura od gospodinot
> Hurmuzijadis. Zna~i, ne se raboti samo za naodi koi nie
> gi nao|ame na teritorijata na dene{na Republika
> Makedonija, tuku isti takvi naodi mo`eme da najdeme i vo
> Krit i vo Peloponez i vo Korint itn. Vo statijata {to ja
> imam podgotveno za pe~atewe imam sobrano materijal od
> Osin~ani, od Lepenski Vir, od ['pel Kosturski, s# do
> Korint od 535-ta, 540-ta godina pred na{ata era. Namerno
> ne go zafa}am periodot na Aleksandar i Filip Makedonski
> za da ne ispadne deka ova e ispolitizirana rabota. Ova e
> nauka! Tuka ima brojna faktografija, tuka ima celosna
> argumentacija, ovde ima mnogubrojni artefakti od
> raznovidni arheolo{ki istra`uvawa, ima natpisi na karpi i
> zatoa ne se soglasuvam so tvrdewata na d-r Du{ko
> Aleksovski deka ova navodno e "karpesta
> umetnost". Ova e pismo! Tuka imame fiksirani,
> za~uvani podatoci od odreden kontinuiran razvoj na
> jazikot, zna~i imame odredeni fiksirani etapi od razvojot
> na drevno-makedonskiot kontinuiran sinteti~ki jazik vo
> period najmalku od nekade 7.000 godini pred na{ata era,
> pa konkretno so ovie podatoci koi jas tuka gi davam
> nekade do 535-ta, 540-ta g.p.n.e. {to ne zna~i deka nema
> i vo ponoviot period i za vremeto na Filip i Aleksandar
> Makedonski. Me|utoa, neka toa ostane kako poseben del za
> istra`uvawe, kako poseben period, za da mo`e pravilno da
> seinterpretira i da mo`eme da se oslobodime od seta ovaa
> nametnata, ispolitizirana sostojba. Nie, kako Makedonci,
> nema zo{to da se branime, tuku treba samo da gi
> iznesuvame argumentite {to gi imame. Nie treba da ja
> dademe na{ata verzija, na{ata interpretacija na taa
> makedonska materijalna kultura, a ne da ~ekame nekoj drug
> pogre{no da ni ja interpretira i beskrupulozno da ni ja
> prisvojuva. Spored toa, gospo|ata Eleonora Petrova }e
> treba verojatno malku poseriozno da se zafati so
> istra`uva~ki raboti i verojatno }e treba edna{ zasekoga{
> da izvr{i korekcija na interpretacijata koja e dadena na
> toj makedonski period vo Muzejot na Makedonija, a kade
> {to drevno makedonskata kultura i civilizacija e
> prezentirana kako "Helenska". Toa e periodot na
> Makedonskata Imperija i periodot na makedonisti~kite
> dr`avi koi bile sozdadeni po razdvojuvaweto na
> Makedonskata Imperija po smrtta na Aleksandar Makedonski.
> Spored toa, ne mo`e kulturata na na{ite predci koja bila
> na teritorijata na sega{nite gradovi Skopje, Bitola,
> Veles itn., da se tretira muzeolo{ki kako
> "Helenizam". Zatoa {to vo Skopje ne stapnal ni
> eden "Helen" vo toa vreme, kako {to ni eden
> "Helenist" ne postoi vo istorijata, od prosta
> pri~ina {to poimot "helenizam" e produkt na
> istorijata na umetnosta, a ne na istorijata. Vo
> istorijata ne postoi terminot "helenizam"! </font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>"Helenizmot"
> ne e ni etnos, ni dr`ava? </strong></font></p>
> <p><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>V.IQOV:</strong>
> To~no taka, "helenizmot" ne e ni dr`ava ni
> etnos! Ne mo`e rezultatite od trivekovna civilzacija na
> Makedonskata imperija i na makedonisti~kite dr`avi da
> bidat "Helenizam". Ako eden Rim sozdade Rimska
> Imperija, ako od eden Vizant navodno e sozdadena
> Vizantiskata imperija, toga{ od Makedonskata mitolo{ka i
> istoriska Imperija treba da rezultira makedonska kultura,
> makedonska civilizacija, makedonizam i drevna
> makedonistika.</font></p>
> <p align="center"><font face="Macedonian Helv"><strong>(prodol`uva)</strong></font></p>
> </td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td> </td>
> <td> </td>
> </tr>
></table>
></body>
></html>
>
>--------------4E1209D0DED4DB868F6C2222--
>
Slavko Mangovski
Daniel Nikovski wrote in message <6g8v6q$g98$1...@mistletoe.srv.cs.cmu.edu>...
[del]
>
>Well, Makedon, this is certainly an interesting article, but it does
>not seem to be relevant to the issue that Bulgarians are descendants
>of the Huns and that many people of Slavic origin, including those
>in Moesia, Thrace, and Macedonia, have chosen to be called Bulgarians
>because of the power of the Bulgarian state.
>
Or because of bulgarization of the population through ecclesiastic and
educational, often violent, methods. Macedonians have felt that
"power" quite well.
[del]
>
>As for this claim, I am afraid that this is not very credible. I do not
>see any continuity between the state tradition of the Old Macedonians,
>and the current state of Macedonia, which was established less than
>ten years ago.
The Macedonian state was re-established in 1944. It's people,
like the people in all Macedonia, call themselves Macedonians,
defend Macedonian interests and many beleive that ancient Macedonians
are among their ancestors. I don't see a total lack of continuity. Indeed,
we don't share the same type of governmant but neither do you with
Asparuh.
On the contrary, the state tradition of Bulgaria is
>at least 13 centuries old, since the time of Asparukh, and based on what
>*you* are saying about our Hunnic origins, it might be 16 or even
>27 centuries old, if you take into account the oldest records about
>Asian Bulgarians in Pamir.
The progenitors of all peoples in the world, it would seem.
>
>There is also a part about the Cyrillic alphabet, which is used as
>an argument that Macedonian is not Bulgarian. I don't see the
>relation. The original alphabet was indeed used to record the
>Solun dialect, but this does not define a language.
So you claim that the language they translated their books in was not
a language but a dialect? Dialect of what?
Shorthly after
>that the alphabet was adopted as the official Bulgarian alphabet.
>At that time Macedonia was part of Bulgaria and hence the Ohrid
>literary school is purely Bulgarian.
Would you suggest they could be called Moravian, too, because of
their work there?
Slavko Mangovski
http://www.gate.net/~mango
"...If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece,
Greek Macedonia would not exist today..."
Augustinos, Metropolite of Florina.
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <6g8v6q$g98$1...@mistletoe.srv.cs.cmu.edu>,
BRATSKI PLEMENA - JITELI NA IZTOCHNA EVROPA !!!!! SIRECH - BALKANCI !!!!!!
BRATIA BALKANCI , DA SE OBEDINIM PROTIV NASHITE VRAGOVE I TEHNITE EMANACII -
RIM, VIZANTIA, OSMANSKA IMPERIA, SUVETSKA IMPERIA !!!!
TRAKI - prenebrejitelno nazvanie na tezi narodi ot strana na gurcite.
TRAKI= divaci, varvari na grucki ezik !
Bulgarite ne sa tatari !!!!!!
Bulgarite sa AVTOHTONNOTO naselenie na BALKANITE. Te sa bratia s jitelite na
Iliria , Makedonia , Sarmatia. Tehnite vragove neprekusnato sa podbujdali
bratoubiistveni voini sred bratskite narodi. Dnes e doshlo vremeto da se
OBEDINIM !!!!!
DNESHNA MALKA MAKEDONIA I DNESHNA MALKA BULGARIA NE MOGAT DA NAPRAVIAT NISHTO
SAMI !!!!!!
Viktor P Kostov
Friend, you need Jesus Christ. He can set you free from sin and death. May
God bless you with His eternal blessings, in Jesus' name!
Viktor P Kostov
Daniel,
I appreciate your thoughful and informed response. It is excelent!
Vik
Makedon
Julian Dontchev wrote:
Abre "choveche", bugaromanche, kazhi shto te machi ?
Chichko Makedon e od Bitolsko i dolgi godini zhivee vo Avstralija,
pa ne uchel Tatarski za da razbira Blgarski.
Za toa shto vie kazhuvate deka se razbirate po makedonski, nesum
uveren!!!Iako navistina razbirate se na Makedonski, togash vie
ste Makedonci, a se misli deka ima povkje od 3 millioni koj zhivveat
vo "blgarijia",toest na okupirana Makedonska teritorija na
Makedonskiot poluostrov,taka narechen balkan.
Ako zboruvme za Golema Makedonija, togash kje se misli na imperijata na
Aleksandar III Makedonski, od Dunav do Indus!
Talking about straight jackets, those long nights in Finland must be
getting to you? What are you doing up there anyway, visiting your
Turko-Mongol relations, Eskiomos?? :-))
Julian Stoev
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
|
|Julian Stoev wrote:
|>
|> On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
|> |Jason wrote:
|> |> Makedon wrote:
|> |> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
|> |> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
|> |> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
|> |> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
|> |> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.
|> |==================
|> |not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
|> |is a fool.
|>
|> This is amasing! Will you please give a proof or a reference to it? Some
|> text from this time in his original form and also translated in English
|> (or French) and in present day Macedonian. Just 2-3 sentences will do the
|> job perfectly;-) If you have problems with the alphabet, you may try some
|> JPEG attachment... It will not take more then 5-10 kB. And let's agree in
|> advance that you don't have in mind only gramatical similarity, because
|> there is a big _gramatical_ similarity even between English and
|> Chinese(Mandarin). (Miki, ask your girlfriend and explain the guy) ;-)))
|>
|> Cheers!
|subject. Momentarily I have forgotten the title. In due time, it will be
|posted here on ANM.
|--
It is about a time when you do a statement to be able to give not only
one, but at least 3 independent sources of your information. And you don't
give even one. You've "forgotten". May be you've "forgotten" not only the
name of the paper, but also what was written there? What else you
forgot... Huh!
What if I write here "The Sun is turning around the Earth"? You'd normally
ask "how do you know". And in this case I bravely answer "I forgot".
Nice!!;-) And also funny! What percentage of the contents of your posts is
due to bad memory? 10%, 30%, 50%, more....
You not only have the habit to forget, but also don't undestand slavic
languages. Who knows how much you know English;)
Have a nice time and don't forget so easy! Anyway! I am still waiting for
a reference: ISBN, Publisher, Year.... Don't forget this.
Julian Stoev
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Josif Grezlovski wrote:
|Lazarin Lazarov wrote:
|>
|> Josif Grezlovski <joe...@gate.net> writes:
|> > The language present-day Macedonians speak is
|> > not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
|> > time.
|>
|> CLEAN MAD !!!
|==============
|Cleanly, oblivious. But that is another matter. To you, the world
|disappears as soon as you close your eyes. If you don't see it, then it
|must not exist.
|--
Let's not forget that you have to give a proof of your statement, Mr.
Grezlovski. When you give it and it is accepted, the things will be
obvious and may be clean.
Expecting your reference....
Julian Stoev
| Have a read of this WebPage:
|http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce175/tekst1_va/vasilil.htm
|
Posting HTML on the newsgroups in not a good idea. Pure text would be
better. Also the character encoding was not well supported on my Netscape,
4.04, so I may had problems reading the text well. In any case I would say
that Daniel Nikovski made very good observations on the contents of this
article. I have some very big questions about this article (like for
example the fact that somebody claims the existense of written language
25000-30000 years ago), but I would prefere to keep my doubts for me and
stress you the differense between scientific paper(s) and inreview. Please
keep this in mind. I would like to stress you also that there is a
difference between archeology and lingiustics. Our conversation is about
macedonian language and is it simillar to the language of Alexander the
Great. There si simply nothing on this subject in this interview.
Let's keep the things simple. Give some solid references (about the time
of Alexander and not about 50000 years ago) and I would be happy to read
them and probably accept them. This would be great not only for Macedonia,
but also for Bulgaria. But please, be ready to accept that your ideas are
wrong.
Also keep in mind, that we bulgarians are proud with our ancestors and
their possible old turco-altaic language and culture. Hungarians also have
such origin AFAIK. It is great to hear somebody discovering for
Macedonians things which are so well known in Bulgaria, but I hope this
process will not stop on this and will not be selective.
Cheers!
--Julian Stoev
sp...@erols.com
Viktor P Kostov wrote:
> Friend, you need Jesus Christ. He can set you free from sin and death. May
> God bless you with His eternal blessings, in Jesus' name!
Dear VIktor, everyone on this net thread , to my knowledge, is a Christian.
LYNGOS 2
Our dear Slavko is writing:
>Or because of bulgarization of the population through ecclesiastic and<BR>
>educational, often violent, methods. Macedonians have felt that<BR>
>"power" quite well. <BR>
But you didn't feel like commenting on Lyngos' posting SKOPIAN STATE AND THE
BULGARIANS.................................
>The Macedonian state was re-established in 1944.
After the OCHRANA boys bit the living shit out of the old Bulgarians that they
didn't like them any more....right Slavko ?
> and many beleive that ancient Macedonians<BR>
>are among their ancestors. I don't see a total lack of continuity.
You'll never be children of the old-Makedonians, because you are Slavs and
Bulgars, and because you Don't want to be old-Makedonians. Is just an excuse
because is working , so the leftovers can get a name.
>So you claim that the language they translated their books in was not<BR>
>a language but a dialect? Dialect of what? <BR>
Slavko I told you about my theory about mental castration and lobotomization by
the two brothers , didn't I ?
They realized that the Slavs and the Bulgars was the future enemy of the Greeks
and they gave you a HALF of everything.
Especially a Half language. Those two brothers they knew what they were doing
.................
>Would you suggest they could be called Moravian, too, because of<BR>
>their work there? <BR>
You guys fight between the two of you. We know they were Greeks and that they
did screw you and lobotomized you really well...............
LYNGOS 2.
Regards to all.......L.
LYNGOS 2
The champion of the SKOPIAN propaganda in these boards wrote:
>LYNGOS 2 wrote:
>
>> Our dear Slavko is writing:
>
>Well, I hope Slavko, Josif and other competent Macedonian
>posters have nothing to do with you and your type in future
>and leave you to talk moronic drivel, your national language,
>to your fellow Morons.
>
>You, Mr. Lygushko, are a low life, racist, facist and mentally
>disturbed MORON!!!!
Hahahahaha............My postings DO bother you right ? Good !!!We don't need
SKOPIANS like you around to claim Makedonian ancenstry. How come you don't
answer in the English language the exchange between you and Daniel ah? How come
no comments about the SKOPIANS and the BULGARIANS ah ? Are you and your family
part of the Bulgars lef t behind , or part of the ones that came back with
Hitler and killed so many of our villagers as OCHRANA ? I was right about it
wasn't I ? Even Slavko admitted it.......Makedonia was born in
1944..........no kidding ............after the idiotic Bulgars bit the hell
out of the villagers and Tito named you Makedonians..........right bratcko
?Now you want the rest ......not to pay attention to me !!!!!! But they
already DO . And you, and Daniel, and Josif, and Slavko and everybody else
know better that I am the voice of truth around here..............by the way,
as soon as you are ready to ask for your Greek passport let me know.
What did your buddies told you about me and my family ? They told me that
somebody was asking about my whereabouts up there...........poor idiots,
you never learn DO YOU NOW ?
LYNGOS 2...@aol.com
Regards to all.......L.
Lazarin Lazarov
Does anybody remember a very entertaining fancy tale about the
proto-Bulgarians by the former scb-participant Ivan Vassilev-Crazy?
A very entertaining scene including a native Slav, a Greek dude,
and a proto-Bulgarian was depicted. It was posted some four years ago
but I hope somebody has kept it and will be able to post it again -
it will be very entertaining to see it in this thread.
LL
sp...@erols.com
Lazarin Lazarov wrote:
Ask Ivanko, he may give it to you for reposting
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <3527A58C...@unforgettable.com>,
Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>
> > In soc.culture.bulgaria Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
> >
> > : BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
BULGARITE SA BULGARI !!!
BULGARIA E IMALO V EVROPA OSHTE PREDI ATTILA !!!
VIJTE KARTA NA EVROPA OT IV VEK, NA KOIATO IASNO LICHI "MESIA HEC & VULGARIA"
VULGARIA=BULGARIA
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/KARTA1.JPG
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/index.html
S Boga !
Ziezi
Makedon
LYNGOS 2 wrote:
> Our dear Slavko is writing:
Well, I hope Slavko, Josif and other competent Macedonian
posters have nothing to do with you and your type in future
and leave you to talk moronic drivel, your national language,
to your fellow Morons.
You, Mr. Lygushko, are a low life, racist, facist and mentally
disturbed MORON!!!!
Fellow Macedonians , ignore this MORON and OTHERS like him!
Makedon
LYNGOS 2 wrote:
> >LYNGOS 2 wrote:
> >
> >> Our dear Slavko is writing:
> >
> >Well, I hope Slavko, Josif and other competent Macedonian
> >posters have nothing to do with you and your type in future
> >and leave you to talk moronic drivel, your national language,
> >to your fellow Morons.
> >
> >You, Mr. Lygushko, are a low life, racist, facist and mentally
> >disturbed MORON!!!!
>
>
> Hahahahaha............My postings DO bother you right ? Good !!!
What bothers me is wasting time on this post because we Macedonians
have our own course to follow in the struggle for Freedom,
Justice and Equal Rights!!!!!!!!!
> Are you and your family part of the Bulgars lef t behind , or part of
> the ones that came back with
> Hitler and killed so many of our villagers as OCHRANA ? I was right about it
> wasn't I ? Even Slavko admitted it.......Makedonia was born in
> 1944..........no kidding ............after the idiotic Bulgars bit the hell
> out of the villagers and Tito named you Makedonians..........right bratcko?
I don't understand Moronic Drivel but other Morons might do!
> Now you want the rest ......not to pay attention to me !!!!!!
No, just Slavko, Josif and other competent Macedonians!
> But they already DO .
Delusion is proof of the advanced stage of your Mental Illness!!!!!
> And you, and Daniel, and Josif, and Slavko and everybody else
> know better that I am the voice of truth around here..
Except for your fellow Morons, everybody else
knows you are a mental case!!!!
Only mentally deranged Morons would say "I am
the voice of truth"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> What did your buddies told you about me and my family ? They told me that
> somebody was asking about my whereabouts up there...........poor idiots,
> you never learn DO YOU NOW ?
Quick, put the straight jacket on!!!!!
>
>
> LYNGOS 2...@aol.com
> Regards to all.......L.
Have a good time in the " FUNNY FARM"!!!!!!
LYNGOS 2
What bothers me is wasting on this post because we Macedonianshave our own
course
to follow in the struggle for Freedom,
Justice and Equal Rights!!!!!!!!!>>>
I thought the Serbs gave you freedom, I thought you gave your people justice,
and I thought everybody in SKOPIALAND had equal rights. You must be farther
back than i thought.........I am glad.!!
<<>>
Oh.....yes you understand, and that's why you guys lost Makedonia.
<<<No, just Slavko, Josif and other competent Macedonians!>>>
If they are competents they do NOT need your experties............
<<<Delusion is proof of the advanced stage of your Mental Illness!!!!!>>>
Why you should worry for a poor delusionist like me then ?
<<Except for your fellow Morons, everybody else knows you are amental case!!!!
Only
mentally deranged Morons would say "I am
the voice of truth"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>
We should worry about the Moron that gives instructions to others about what to
do and what not to do around here !!!!!!!!!
<<<Quick, put the straight jacket on!!!!!>>>
Your buddy Voskopoulos was asking questions.......he is your buddy isn't he ?
<<Have good time in the " FUNNY FARM"!!!!!!>>
I always have, is better than the SKOPIAN paradise.................
LYNGOS 2
Regards to all.......L.
Regards to all.......L.
Makedon
Mr. Lygusko2, I diagnose that you need mental rehabilitation and thus
I will prescribe some treatment for your condition, free of charge .
Treatment will be long-term and from time to time you will get to see
some images and read interesting information.
First Session.
Think about the Year 2025 and the size of the population, projected,
of friendly neighbour, TURKEY and compare that to your country,
Republic of MORONIA.
Being a Moron,you probably don't have a clue but Iwill help you!
Here are the figures:
In 2025 Population of TURKEY= 120 Million
In 2025 Population of "GREECE"= 10 Million
Put those figures in your mind and think of the bright Prospects for
Moronia.
Enjoy
Makedon
LYNGOS 2
First Session.
Enjoy
Makedon
>>>>
Before i have to worry about the Turks, the Armenians, the Kurds, the Syrians,
the Iranioans, the Iraqis, and the fanatic islamists will take care of
them.........................................................
But what YOU SKOPIANS are going to do about the Moslem Albanians knocking at
your doors ah ? Or are they the Bulgarians ? And what about the
Serbians...........You see garbage business is very good these
days...........and all you people are up there in the SLAVOBULGARIAN SKOPIAN
state..............are garbage !!!!!!
Stinkata
In article <6g3c8s$9hr$3...@news.fsu.edu>, ntar...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu says...
>
>Makedon (mak...@unforgettable.com) wrote:
>: Aleksandar DONSKI: Istorijata ne e samo minato.
>
>: BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
>Gospodin Makedon, shte imate li dobrinata da razkazhete njakolko hubavi
>vica na srpski ili makednoski ezik. Tova sa ljubimite mi vicove i zvuchat
>mnogo smeshno! Ako iskate, i az shte kazha 2-3.
>
>Nick Tarkalanov
Taka i nqma da dochakame wicowe ot g-n Makedon. Toj qwno e seriozen chowek. Po
taq prichina az otwarqm rubrikata s edin dosta bradat wic no za smetka na towa
pyk aktualen.
Otishal Makedoneca w London. Gledal chudil se, gledal chudil se i nakraq
wyzkliknal wyzhiten - "London, London, wtori Kukush!!!
Twoq Stinka
Radeff
>
>>
>>Well, Makedon, this is certainly an interesting article, but it does
>>not seem to be relevant to the issue that Bulgarians are descendants
>>of the Huns and that many people of Slavic origin, including those
>>in Moesia, Thrace, and Macedonia, have chosen to be called Bulgarians
>>because of the power of the Bulgarian state.
>>
<<>Or because of bulgarization of the population through ecclesiastic and
>educational, often violent, methods. Macedonians have felt that
>"power" quite well.>>
May I add that we still feel the scars, physically and mentally. Try as we may,
they will not fully heal. Its too early for the healing process.
>
>[del]
>
>>
>>As for this claim, I am afraid that this is not very credible. I do not
>>see any continuity between the state tradition of the Old Macedonians,
>>and the current state of Macedonia, which was established less than
>>ten years ago.
Next time it will shrink even further, this establishment of Macedonians. Does
it count that the graveyards are full of Macedonians on Macedonian soil? Or are
the only graves of significance those which give breath to our detractors?
>The Macedonian state was re-established in 1944. It's people,
>like the people in all Macedonia, call themselves Macedonians,
>defend Macedonian interests and many beleive that ancient Macedonians
>are among their ancestors. I don't see a total lack of continuity. Indeed,
>we don't share the same type of governmant but neither do you with
>Asparuh.
>
>
> On the contrary, the state tradition of Bulgaria is
>>at least 13 centuries old, since the time of Asparukh, and based on what
>>*you* are saying about our Hunnic origins, it might be 16 or even
>>27 centuries old, if you take into account the oldest records about
>>Asian Bulgarians in Pamir.
>
>The progenitors of all peoples in the world, it would seem.
>
>>
>>There is also a part about the Cyrillic alphabet, which is used as
>>an argument that Macedonian is not Bulgarian. I don't see the
>>relation. The original alphabet was indeed used to record the
>>Solun dialect, but this does not define a language.
>
>So you claim that the language they translated their books in was not
>a language but a dialect? Dialect of what?
Yes, do tell what dialect it was they translated.
> Shorthly after
>>that the alphabet was adopted as the official Bulgarian alphabet.
>>At that time Macedonia was part of Bulgaria and hence the Ohrid
>>literary school is purely Bulgarian.
The same way they adopted our songs?
>Would you suggest they could be called Moravian, too, because of
>their work there?
>
>
>Slavko Mangovski
>http://www.gate.net/~mango
>"...If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece,
>Greek Macedonia would not exist today..."
>Augustinos, Metropolite of Florina.
HRA
Guentcho Skordev
Makedon, Daniel, please don't quote the whole articles and
please avoid HTML, or only a few will read what you've written.
Guentcho
LYNGOS 2
Hahahahahaha Makedon you must be going NUTS man !!!!!!
The Turks are going to do NOTHING..............not only this, but if you are
going to place yourself as an allie of the Moslem Asssasins, against the
Christians, there is no future for you within the Orthodox fraternity. Think
about it ............................
L.
Regards to all.......L.
Boris Docevski
and who says macedonians speak a "bulgarian dialect", you undereducated
fool?
-boris docevski
Boris Docevski
da vi ja ebam majkata huno-tatarska na site vas bolgari.
-boris docevski
On 3 Apr 1998,
Nobody wrote:
>
>
> Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote in article
> <3524F5F1...@unforgettable.com>...
> .....
> > Stephane, please write in English or in Macedonian because I don't
> > understand any other languages and I understood very little of what
> > you have written.
> >
>
> Da ti e.a maikata - tova razbirash li?
>
>
>
> > Redakcija "Makedonsko sonce" ul. "Leninova" br.79
> >
> > 9100 Skopje, Republika Makedonija. Tel / faks: (091) 130-137;
> >
> > E-mail: mso...@soros.org.mk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Boris Docevski
samuil was a macedonian emperor, not a "bolgar" one. please, post your
todor zivkovist "history" in scb, where it belongs.
-boris docevski
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998
em...@mail.techno-link.com wrote:
> Nadpis na Samuil , otkrit suvsem naskoro v Edesa - dneshna Gurcia:
>
> 1. V samodurjavnia grad Voden Az Samuil, veren v Hrista
> 2. Car na Bulgarite i Romeite, ot boga izpraten samodurjec
> 3. na vsichki strani ot Rashka do Makedonia, Tesalia
> 4. i Gurcia , vnuk na staria Shishman, koito beshe Kavgan na
> 5. jitelite na Turnovo, postroih tozi molitven dom, za da
> sushtestvuva v vechnostta. Osnovite biaha polojeni v epohata
> na Ieremia, koito beshe pruv hristianin ot Melnik.
> 6. Postroen be (tozi hram) za grehovete i spasenieto na
> bulgarite
> 7. ot prokletia Satana, koito proizhojda ot Konstantinopol.
> 8. Tozi hram be zavurshen prez 14-tata godina ot caruvaneto mi
> s pomoshtta na sveshtennika Gavril, koito e duhoven pastir
> na jitelite na Muglen.
> 9. Napisano prez godina 6497 ot suzdavaneto na sveta (989 g.)
> 5-ti Indiktion.
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/vod
>
> Makedonia na makedoncite! (Sirech - na minaloto )
> Bulgaria na Bulgarite ! (Sirech na Budeshteto )
>
> S Boga !
> Ziezi
> http://www.techno-link.com/clients/zpage/index.htm
Boris Docevski
makedonsko sonce, ami kako, a ne bolgarska temnnica!
-boris docevski
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998
em...@mail.techno-link.com wrote:
> Makedonsko Sonce ?!
>
>
> "Bog ne izprashta li dujd ednakvo na vsichki ?
> SUSHTO TUI I SLUNCETO NE SVETI LI EDNAKVO NA VSICHKI ?
> I ne dishame li ednakvo vsichki vuzduh ?
> ...
> S tia dumi i s oshte mnogo drugi dumi filosofut gi posrami, ostavi gi i si
> zamina. "
>
>
> Iz "Prostranno jitie na Kiril" (Sv.Konstantin Kiril Filosof)
>
> S Boga !
> Ziezi
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/5738/
Boris Docevski
gee, yes there is such a thing as a macedonian language and baloonheads
all over the world who have not been brainwashed by belgrade, athens or
sophia propaganda understand that simple fact very well.
-boris docevski
On 5 Apr 1998,
Julian Dontchev wrote:
> In soc.culture.bulgaria Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>
> : BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO!
>
MATSIS CO
>Subject: Re: LYGUSHKO2 HAS LOST HIS MARBLES-Someone call a doctor!
>From: Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com>
>Date: Tue, Apr 7, 1998 15:41 EDT
>Message-id: <352A8151...@unforgettable.com>
>
>
>
>Makedon wrote:
>
>> Mr. Lygusko2, I diagnose that you need mental rehabilitation and thus
>> I will prescribe some treatment for your condition, free of charge .
>>
>> Treatment will be long-term and from time to time you will get to see
>> some images and read interesting information.
>>
>> First Session.
>>
>> Think about the Year 2025 and the size of the population, projected,
>> of friendly neighbour, TURKEY and compare that to your country,
>> Republic of MORONIA.
>>
>> Being a Moron,you probably don't have a clue but Iwill help you!
>>
>> Here are the figures:
>> In 2025 Population of TURKEY= 120 Million
>> In 2025 Population of "GREECE"= 10 Million
>>
>> Put those figures in your mind and think of the bright Prospects for
>> Moronia.
>>
>> Enjoy
>>
>> Makedon
>
>friendly message from a Turk well wisher!!!!!!!
>
>
> TURKEY SHOULD TAKE WHOLE CYPRUS!!!!
> Date:
> 7 Apr 1998 18:56:34 GMT
> From:
> bca...@aol.com (BCalik)
> Organization:
> AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups:
> soc.culture.greek
>
>
>
>
> HALF OF THE CYPRUS IS NOT ENOUGH.WE SHOULD TAKE WHOLE CYPRUS AND
>GREEK
>ISLANDS.WE SHOULD KICK HELLENIC GREEK ASS BASTARDS.OUR POPULATION
>REACHED 72
>MILLION.TURKISH LAND IS NOT LARGE ENOUGH TO HANDLE THIS POPULATION.WE
>SHOULD
>TAKE WHOLE CYPRUS,GREECE ISLANDS,WESTERN THRACE OF GREECE.
>
>
What's your point? Two idiots in one post???
MATSIS
Makedon
Nova Star
In 490 BC The Barbarian was about a million and we are only 40000 . So what
have change from then ? Nothing. Do you understand my litle idiots ? Read
some History and then you can talk.
GS
Re file Matsi adikos kopos autoi den katalavainoun apo logia hahaha
MATSIS CO wrote:
> >Subject: Re: LYGUSHKO2 HAS LOST HIS MARBLES-Someone call a doctor!
> >From: Makedon <mak...@unforgettable.com>
> >Date: Tue, Apr 7, 1998 15:41 EDT
> >Message-id: <352A8151...@unforgettable.com>
> >
> >
> >
Agamemnon
Boris Docevski wrote in message ...
>and who says macedonians speak a "bulgarian dialect", you undereducated
>fool?
>
>-boris docevski
>
Agence-Presse France
New Balkan language institute for Skopje
SKOPJE, Apr 9 (APF) - A new language institute is set to be built in
Skopje the capital city of the newly created Al-Bu-Slavia.
The new institute will specialise in the study Slavonic languages and
local dialects including Albanian, Bulgarian and Al-Bu-Slavic. Courses
will also contain modules in Modern and Ancient Greek, Latin and
Turkish.
It has not yet been announced who will head the institute but
speculation is rife that the post will go to Professor Katya Legova the
chief Al-Bu-Slavian negotiator at the United Nations.
Al-Bu-Slavia was formerly known as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia" but remained unrecognised until its dispute with Greece
regarding its name was finally resolved at the UN Headquarters in New
York earlier on this week.
It is thought that the Al-Bu-Slavic languages institute is part of an
endeavour by the government to bring together the countries majority
Albanian, Bulgarian and Serb inhabitants by creating a common identity
without frontiers.
The new institute will be constructed on a Greenfield site to the west
of Skopje and it is scheduled to be ready by 1 April 1999.
Emil Angelov
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:27:25 -0400, Boris Docevski <bd...@columbia.edu>
wrote:
>da vi ja ebam majkata huno-tatarska na site vas bolgari.
>
>-boris docevski
>
This is the ULTIMATE proof that you, little idiot,
speak Bulgarian. The purest of Bulgarian: cursing
is not taught (I hope!) in Serbian school, nor did
Blazhe Koneski have the gall to improve on this
feature of the language. Keep on cursing us in
our common native tongue, and if it pleases you,
you may call it Martian.
Ilya V. Talev
In article <352583...@gate.net>, joe...@gate.net says...
>
> That is not funny at all. The language present-day Macedonians speak is
> not very different from the language spoken by our ancestors in Philip's
> time.
Gosh, Josko, what have they done to you!
Your uncle Ilya
em...@mail.techno-link.com
Jivo Zdravo !
Edin makedoniski internetski vestnik - "Makedonsko sonce", publikuva statia,
ozaglavena "Makedonia granichela so Germania" i podzaglavie
"Samuilovata makedonska drajava na Dunav imala zaednichka granica so Germanija
i ne postoi nitu eden izvoren dokument, spored koi, Samuilovata drajava se
vikala Bugarija! Spored eden togashen germanski dokument, Samuilovoto Carstvo
izvorno se vikalo - Sklavinia, a poetot Ivan Kiriotes, vo edna svoja pesna,
napisana vo toa vreme, tvrdel deka jitelite na Samuilovoto Carstvo bile
Makedonci!"
http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce180/tekst7d.htm
Ocheviden e stremejut na statiata ot devet kladeneca voda da nosi, samo i samo
da obiavi , che Samuil ne e bil car na Bulgarite. No avtorut si pravi avtogol,
zashtoto dokazva edinstveno i samo , che Samuilovata durjava ne e bila
MAKEDONSKA.
Znachi ako viarvame na "togashnia germanski dokument" pretencii za spriamo
Samuilovata durjava triabva da imat edinstveno jitelite na dneshna SLOVENIA
poradi blizost v nazvaniata!
Tuk bliasva mnogo iasno antimakedonskia i antibulgarski harakter na samata
statia.
Po-nadolu v avtorut pishe doslovno :
"Sepak, koga zboruvame za Samulovoto carstvo, malku e poznato deka poetot Ivan
Kiriotes narechen Geometres (koj bil mitropolit na Melitena i koi jiveel vo
10. vek) vo svoite pesni, vo koi gi opishuval nastanite od toa vreme,
podanicite na Samuilovoto carstvo gi narekol kako: Mizi, Bugari, Skiti i
MAKEDONCI!"
Dobre de , a kude tuk sa SKLAVINITE ? Znachi SKLAVINIA e izmislica na
"togashnia germanski dokument".
Zabeliazahte, che v podzaglavieto na preden plan sa izvedeni edinstveno
makedoncite. V samata statia obache se tvurdi , che v Samuilovoto carstvo
jiveeli - Mizi , Skiti , Bulgari, Makedonci ...
Purvo tuk lipsvat vsiakakvi SKLAVINI i vtoro Mizi i Skiti sa drevnite
(arhaichnite) i antichnite nazvania na BULGARITE. Togava ?
Terminut Makedonci ne e nishto drugo osven edin arhaichen termin , s koito
poetot Ivan Kiriotes e iskal da kaje kakuv e bil drevnia proizhod na
BULGARSKIA narod !!!
Sushtestvuvat niakolko nadpisa , koito predstavliavat ABSOLIUTNO
dokazatelstvo kakvo e bilo nacinalnoto samosuznanie na Samuil i upravliavania
ot nego narod. BULGARSKO !!!
Ne postoi nitu eden izvoren dokument, spored koi, Samuilovata drajava se
vikala Makedonia!
Vupreki, che ne mi dopada imeto na vestnika "Makedonsko sonce" , az go cheta
redovno , tui kato nauchavam dosta interesni neshta za Bulgarskata istoria
(razbira se v statiite zamestvam misleno etnonima "makedonci" s pravilnia -
"bulgari").
A sega imam chesta da obiasnia kakvo znachi terminut "SKLABI" (slavi). I dnes
na bulgarski ezik ima duma SLAB , koiato otgovaria na gruckoto SKLABA
(robinia), SKLABIA (robstvo), SKLABOS( rob, plennik).
SKLAB e etnonimut BALKS napisan na obratno. Terminut BALKS e grucki variant na
BALK - drevnoto nazvanie na BULGARITE(BALK+AR). Drug variant na etnonimut BALK
v drevnogruckia e PELASK(BELASK).
I do dnes , kogato iskat da napraviat cherna magia na niakogo , izpisvat imeto
mu naobratno. Taka che pravete si izvodite sami. I ne se chudete , che sme na
tova deredje, sled kato samite nie vse oshte se smiatame za SLAVIANI , sirech
za robi (ili antibulgari, antiveliki) !!!
S Boga !
Ziezi
http://www.techno-link.com/clients/zpage/index.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/index.html
Zoran Milososki
Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
back to your Mafia governing, car stealign country and leave us alone.
Don't post anything here, because this is news group about Macedonia,
not about Bulgaria and your false theses. You'll have the right to
speak when your government recognizes the hundreds of thousands of
Macedonians who live in Pirin Macedonia, and maybe do a noble gesture
and return what's not yours. We all know that's not gonna happen, just
because you have no honor and face to admint the truth to yourself. And
next time, why don't you write about OMO Ilinden and the Bulgarian
"democracy," probably the same level with the Greek one. Samuil was a
Macedonian, not a Bulgarian.
MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE ZASEKOGASS.
Agamemnon
Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3536A2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
>Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
>Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
>are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
And what evidence do you have to show that you are Macedonian.
Are you Greek. NO!
Do you have Greek ancestors. NO!
Did Alexander's Macedonians make contact with the Slavs. NO!
Are you descended from Alexander. NO!
You are not Macedonian. If you are then I'm a Chinaman
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <6h5c12$i6q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Arabskiat pateshestvenik Ibn Fadlan pri pohoda si do Voljska Bulgaria
prez 992 naricha Voljskite Bulgarite - Saklabi, koeto razbira se e arabska
forma na Sklabini(Sklavini). I pri tova polojenie ako slushame "Makedonsko
sonce" (Sklavinia=Makedonia) mojem da obiavim - Makedonia e granichela s reka
Volga.
Kakto veche obiasnih , terminut Saklabi(Sklavi) e nalojen sred hristianskia i
arabskia sviat za da prinizi VELICHIETO NA BULGARITE kato avtohtonno naselenie
na Iztochna Evropa.
Bihme napravili kompromis (makar i s nejelanie) chujdencite da ni narichat
SAKLABI(SLABI, SKLABI,SKLAVI) no nie , BULGARITE da narichame sebesi s edin
unijavasht chestta i dostoinstvoto termin - NIKOGA VECHE !
BULGARITE SA BULGARI - nito SKLABI(robi) , nito TURKI(divaci).
Terminut SLOVENI niama nishto obshto s goreopisanite. SLOVENI ne e etnonim.
SLOVENI opredelia kulturnoto nivo na dadeni narodnostni grupi. SLOVENI e
antipod na NEMCI . Ednite izpoviadvat SLOVOTO , drugite sa "nemi" - ne
izpoviadvat SLOVOTO.
em...@mail.techno-link.com
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <3536A2...@edcc.ctc.edu>,
> > Ziezi
>
> Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
> Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
> are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
> Don't post anything here, because this is news group about Macedonia,
> not about Bulgaria and your false theses. You'll have the right to
> speak when your government recognizes the hundreds of thousands of
> Macedonians who live in Pirin Macedonia, and maybe do a noble gesture
> and return what's not yours. We all know that's not gonna happen, just
> because you have no honor and face to admint the truth to yourself. And
> next time, why don't you write about OMO Ilinden and the Bulgarian
> "democracy," probably the same level with the Greek one. Samuil was a
> Macedonian, not a Bulgarian.
>
> MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE ZASEKOGASS.
>
Molia pishete na Makedonski !
Obicham Makedonia, Mizia i Trakia vupreki , che sum roden v Sofia. Ne mi
prechete da obicham bratiata si, kakto i da iskat da se narichat! Zatova
budete taka dobur i ne mi zabraniavaite da pisha v alt.news.macedonia !
Ako Makedonia e za Makedoncite "zasekogas" togava kakvo praviat US voiski v
Makedonia ? Pogrijete se da si suzdadete pravilna predstava , koi vi e brat i
koi vi e dushmanin.
Obicham vi.
S Boga !
Ziezi
em...@mail.techno-link.com
In article <6h6o2t$h69$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>,
PECHATNA GRESHKA ! MOLIA ZA IZVINENIE ! GODINATA E 922 !
Zoran Milososki
> >Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
> >are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
>
>
> Are you Greek. NO!
>
> Do you have Greek ancestors. NO!
>
> Did Alexander's Macedonians make contact with the Slavs. NO!
>
> Are you descended from Alexander. NO!
>
> You are not Macedonian. If you are then I'm a Chinaman
Then I guess you are a Chinaman. Why don't you just give up and go to a
greek news group. I don't know why are you wasting your time posting
dosens of things that only you can make logic of. I'm MACEDONIAN
whether you like it or not. And please don't lie to other non-Balkan
people when they ask about a city in the Republic of Macedonia (Stip).
Who are you to give out false information about which site is Macedonian
and which is not. www.macedonian.se.org is a Macedonian site from
Prilep, and I believe they have an office in Lerin, Aegean Macedonia
(currently under Greek occupation). www.vmacedonia.com is a Macedonian
web-site from Skopje I believe. And if you can't handle that the truth
that the whole world knows about the Macedonian language and culture
than you are the one with the problem in the head. You are losing the
battle, and you are gonna have to accept that. Like I told you before:
the only thing you greeks are afraid of is the plain truth.
MACEDONIA TO THE MACEDONIANS FOREVER.
P.S. Go to the greek news group, your nervs will fell much better
Have a pleasant day.
Zoran Milososki
> >
> > Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
> > Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
> > are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
> > back to your Mafia governing, car stealign country and leave us alone.
> > Don't post anything here, because this is news group about Macedonia,
> > not about Bulgaria and your false theses. You'll have the right to
> > speak when your government recognizes the hundreds of thousands of
> > Macedonians who live in Pirin Macedonia, and maybe do a noble gesture
> > and return what's not yours. We all know that's not gonna happen, just
> > because you have no honor and face to admint the truth to yourself. And
> > next time, why don't you write about OMO Ilinden and the Bulgarian
> > "democracy," probably the same level with the Greek one. Samuil was a
> > Macedonian, not a Bulgarian.
> >
> > MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE ZASEKOGASS.
> >
>
> Molia pishete na Makedonski !
>
> Obicham Makedonia, Mizia i Trakia vupreki , che sum roden v Sofia. Ne mi
> prechete da obicham bratiata si, kakto i da iskat da se narichat! Zatova
> budete taka dobur i ne mi zabraniavaite da pisha v alt.news.macedonia !
>
> Ako Makedonia e za Makedoncite "zasekogas" togava kakvo praviat US voiski v
> Makedonia ? Pogrijete se da si suzdadete pravilna predstava , koi vi e brat i
> koi vi e dushmanin.
>
> Obicham vi.
> S Boga !
> Ziezi
Pa Emko bidejkji gledam deka razbirate Makedonski (ne bugarski, tuku
makedonski, jazikot na makedonskata nacija). I ovojpat nemoj da si
preveduvate, makedonski za bugarski, tuku ccitajte kako ssto pissuva,
zossto, toa ssto go pissuvam toa i go mislam. Nie Makedoncite ne sme
vassi brakja vo nikoja smisla. Kako ne vi e sram posle tolku vreme od
makedoskata borba za samobitnost od takvi dussmani kako bugarite grcite
srbite i ssiptarite, usste da tvrdite deka nie sme bugari. Razberete
ednass i zasekogass deka nie sme razliccni od vas i ne sakame nissto
zaedniccko so vas. Se ssto mozzime da bidime e dobri sosedi, koga vie
kje ja priznaete makedonskata nacija, i makedonskiot jazik, a dotogass,
nemate pravo, ni vie nitu takvite kako vas da bidete vo makedonska
konferencija. Samo kako potsetuvanje, hrvatskiot i srpskiot jazik se
skoro identicni, mnogu pati povekje of makedonskiot i bugarskiot, a kako
ssto znaet hrvatite i srbite se dve potpolno razliccni nacii.
Vie bugarite poteknuvate of Turko-tatari i mongoli ccij loss gen se
prenesuva i vo moderna Bugarija. Samo poglednete si ja vassate drzzava
zavitkana vo organiziran kriminal i neccesnosti.
MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE, ZASEKOGASS
P.S. Amerikanskite vojski mozze da se gresska na makedonskata vlada, no
tie barem i lazzno ne zasstituvaat od takvi kako vas.
>
Agamemnon
Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3537B2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
>Agamemnon wrote:
>>
>> Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3536A2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
>>
>> >Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
>> >Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige.
We
>> >are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just
go
>>
>> And what evidence do you have to show that you are Macedonian.
>>
>> Are you Greek. NO!
>>
>> Do you have Greek ancestors. NO!
>>
>> Did Alexander's Macedonians make contact with the Slavs. NO!
>>
>> Are you descended from Alexander. NO!
>>
>> You are not Macedonian. If you are then I'm a Chinaman
>
>Then I guess you are a Chinaman. Why don't you just give up and go to
a
>greek news group. I don't know why are you wasting your time posting
>dosens of things that only you can make logic of. I'm MACEDONIAN
You are not Greek so you cannot be Macedonian.
Now go an find another name to call yourself. How about African American
or Egyptian or Mauri.
Josif Grezlovski
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3536A2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
>
> >Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
> >Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige. We
> >are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just go
>
> And what evidence do you have to show that you are Macedonian.
>
> Are you Greek. NO!
But that is largely irrelevant. Isn't it?
What is relevant is the fact that (a) Philip kicked your hellenic ass at
Chaeronea in 338. Alexander kicked your stinking hellenic ass at Thebes.
Antipater kicked your stinking ass again at Lamia, and avery succeeding
king after him had his boots in your ass. Let me see. how many centuries
was it? 2, 3, or 4.
Question: Do you greeks fall in love with anyone who can kick your ass,
and claim him as your king? Some pathetic creatures!
> Are you descended from Alexander. NO!
> You are not Macedonian. If you are then I'm a Chinaman
Who gives a hoot what you are. One thing for sure; you cannot be
Macedonian. You don't have the needed fiber to be a Macedonian.
--
You can crush all the roses you want, but
You are not going to stop the spring from coming!
Josif Grezlovski
http://www.gate.net/~joegrez/
Zoran Milososki
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3537B2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
> >Agamemnon wrote:
> >>
> >> Zoran Milososki wrote in message <3536A2...@edcc.ctc.edu>...
> >>
> >> >Listen Emko, whoever you are. We are sick and tired of you and the
> >> >Greeks falsifying our history, stiling our name and our heratige.
> We
> >> >are neither Bulgarians, Serbs nor Greeks. We are MACEDONIANS. Just
> go
> >>
> >> And what evidence do you have to show that you are Macedonian.
> >>
> >> Are you Greek. NO!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> a
> >greek news group. I don't know why are you wasting your time posting
> >dosens of things that only you can make logic of. I'm MACEDONIAN
>
> You are not Greek so you cannot be Macedonian.
>
> Now go an find another name to call yourself. How about African American
> or Egyptian or Mauri.
And how about you calling yourself a goddamn Gypsy, cause that's all you
Greeks are, falsifying cheating ass licking, welfare sucking, good for
nothing traitors. You claim to be macedonian so you cannot be greek,
the former does not go togherher with the latter, when are you gonna get
that in you hard head. And stop answering to every macedonian post.
We're all getting sick of your shit. I tried to be reasonable, but it's
hard with you, cause you have no respect for anybody, and I think you
have a problem of identity too. Go see a shrink.
Umri grccko kopile, da ja ebam majka ti v piccka
Mitko
You are a stupid man, Zoran.
Zoran Milososki wrote:
Mitko
Zora's parents came from Mars.
Illiana Kobarelova
> Makedon wrote:
>
> > MACEDONIA LAND OF LEGENDS LAND OF GLORY
> >
> > BUT NEVER GREEK AND NEVER SLAV!!!!
> >
> > MACEDONIA ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN!!!!!
> That's funny. Then why do present-day Macedonians speak a dialect
> of slavonic Bulgarian? Actually the true ancient Macedonians were
> Thracio-Illyrians, but today's Macedonians speak a slavic language.
> Please explain this you chauvinistic fool.