Macedonian last names
Bogdan Popov
From: Slavko Mangovski <ma...@GATE.NET>
>Would you care to elaborate as to when, how and by
>whom the -ski endings were "adopted for political reasons -
>to distinguish us from the Bulgarian sounding "ov/ev."
It was done in 1944 (and after) by the Macedonian Communist Party
and it was implemented by the obedient local Party activists and
officials (usually 19 years old highschool drop-outs) in the
towns of SR Macedonia. The policy had different "success rate",
depending on the town, but most of the times it was done without
consent of the affected people.
Some people managed to keep their last names the way they use to
be by sacrificing in most of the cases their professional
careers. The others, although "big Yugoslavs/sebomans", didn't
change their last names because of the shame from their families
who had been known for years under their original names (Arsov,
Gigov, Gligorov, Grlichkov, Mojsov, Aceva ...).
I know of many cases, but can tell you "first hand" for my family.
My mother's last name was changed in 1945, when she went to
register for highschool. The official there added -SKI to her
last name without asking her. She was 15 at the time.
My father's family had similar experience. Few "activists" from
the Narodno-osloboditelen Odbor (People's Freedom Committee -
what an ironic name!) came to my grandfather's house one day in
1945 and tried to force him to change his last name from POPOV to
POPOVSKI in order to be "in the spirit of the new Yugoslavia"
("vo duhot na novata Jugoslavija").
My grandfather didn't agree, with the words: "Abe deca, ostaite
gi tia majtapi, star sum jas za toa vashe SKI-janje!" (Listen
kids, cut the joke, I am too old for your "SKI-ing!).
He was taken to OZNA (secret police) and none from the family
knew where he was nor whether he was alive for the next three
months. While he was imprisoned, other Party activists came to
my grandmother and tried to "convince" her to add -SKI after the
last name. She said that our family has always been called Popov,
since there were 7 generations of priests in it, so she could not
change willingly the last name to something else. Even more
without the knowledge of my grandfather.
It didn't help. They told her that if she was not going to change
her last name by adding -SKI at the end, she would not see her
husband again and the family was going to be forced out of their
family house and the town.
However, by chance, my grandmother managed to get to one of the
Party officials in town, (who used to be a helper in my
grand-fathers store before the war). He told her that she should
comply "with the new last name policy" since changing of the last
names is a very serious and important issue not only for us, but
for thr whole country, and that "the order came from the
highest place" to "encourage" people to add -SKI to their last
names. "One day", he said, "every single citizen of Yugoslav
Macedonia will have his last name ending on -SKI, and there will
be no more "bulgarian" last names. Sooner or later you too will
have to accept it." He also promised that he will get my
grandfather out of prison (as he was nice to him as a boss before
the war), but she would have to make the decision about the last
name change without my grandfather!
My grandmother had no choice. She agreed to add -SKI to her last
name and to the last names of both of her daughters, but not to
her son's. It was a compromise. That way the Party could still
report "a success", while the last name of the only son will stay
the way it was always. The daughters, she thought, would get
married one day, so their last names didn't matter as
much. That's how my grandfather got released from the prison.
I remember this story clearly since my grandmother used to tell
it many times. She died 5 years ago, but the memory didn't.
However, one of my aunts never married and her last name is still
Popovski. She is aware of the story very well but she never
managed to change her last name back to the old - Popov. In the
first years after the war it was dangerous, and later, she got
used to it, I guess, and it stayed that way till nowadays.
On the other hand, although my grandmothers "official" last name
was Popovski her last wish was to have our old last name POPOV
written on her grave-stone. She didn't have chance to correct her
last name while she was alive, but she left us "amanet" to do it
after her death. And that's the way it was done.
Regards,
Bogdan POPOV
Georgi Karadjov
Bogdan Popov (bog...@world.std.com) wrote:
: From: Slavko Mangovski <ma...@GATE.NET>
: Regards,
: Bogdan POPOV
Evala!!
Georgi Karadjov
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Goce Naumoski
Dear Mr. Popov,
I cannot say anything but "Yes, I believe you". The question is
now "Do you believe me?". Can you imagine what a pride it was
for my grand-father to finally have 'the possibility' to have
his last name edning on -ski? I hope so.
But let's get to the point. I assume we could agree that at this
moment Macedonian citizens are free to change their names (their
first as well as their last names) as it is the case in every
(civilized) country. Last month, I was in Macedonia (on vacation)
and believe me I've not seen any 'queue' of people waiting to
change their last name endings from -ski to -ov/-ev :-)
Speaking to some people (informally), I've found out that there
is a tendency going on in the opposite direction.
One more remark, do you really think that the ending -ov/-ev of a
person's name implies he is a Bulgarian, and -ski that he
is a Macedonian? If your answer is 'yes', I hope you can provide
us more inofrmation about the 'bulgarianess' or 'macedonianess'
of people from Russia, Ukraine, Polland, Czechia, etc.
Regards,
Goce.
Georgi Karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: Dear Mr. Popov,
: I cannot say anything but "Yes, I believe you". The question is
: now "Do you believe me?". Can you imagine what a pride it was
: for my grand-father to finally have 'the possibility' to have
: his last name edning on -ski? I hope so.
I just wonder if he was as proud as his party membership book ( red one)
in the poket on his shirt?
: But let's get to the point. I assume we could agree that at this
: moment Macedonian citizens are free to change their names (their
: first as well as their last names) as it is the case in every
: (civilized) country. Last month, I was in Macedonia (on vacation)
: and believe me I've not seen any 'queue' of people waiting to
: change their last name endings from -ski to -ov/-ev :-)
: Speaking to some people (informally), I've found out that there
: is a tendency going on in the opposite direction.
: One more remark, do you really think that the ending -ov/-ev of a
: person's name implies he is a Bulgarian, and -ski that he
: is a Macedonian? If your answer is 'yes', I hope you can provide
: us more inofrmation about the 'bulgarianess' or 'macedonianess'
: of people from Russia, Ukraine, Polland, Czechia, etc.
Here is some info on the name endings. I hope that you adash, know of
the Gimnazium in Solun ( prva mashka Solunska gimnazia) . It was the
school that gave Macedonia inteligentcia and VMRO. If you have looked at
it records( which I asume you have not, not because you can not, but
because you would not), you will see that the names of all of its students
ended on -ov or - ev. The conclusion is left to you dear friend. I
belive that you can make it!
Georgi Karadjov
: Regards,
: Goce.
: |>
: |>
: |>
: |>
: |>
: |>
: |>
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Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Sep...@island.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (Georgi Karadjov) writes:
|> Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
|> : Dear Mr. Popov,
|>
|> : I cannot say anything but "Yes, I believe you". The question is
|> : now "Do you believe me?". Can you imagine what a pride it was
|> : for my grand-father to finally have 'the possibility' to have
|> : his last name edning on -ski? I hope so.
|>
|> I just wonder if he was as proud as his party membership book ( red one)
|> in the poket on his shirt?
Actually, dear Mr. Karadjov, he was from the opposite side. As
a guarder of the black box (if you know what I mean) and later
as one who revolted against collectivization process, he was
almost killed. Thousands of people on the square were sreaming
"death to him!". The 'cool heads' of a few people and his deeds
during the war (1943,1944) against the BULGARIAN fascist occupiers
(your ancestors?) saved him his life (we do not count the time
he spent in prison). This, however, just made him more proud
of his name.
[del rest]
Regards,
Goce.
Georgi Karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Sep...@island.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (Georgi Karadjov) writes:
: |> Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: |> : Dear Mr. Popov,
: |>
: |> : I cannot say anything but "Yes, I believe you". The question is
: |> : now "Do you believe me?". Can you imagine what a pride it was
: |> : for my grand-father to finally have 'the possibility' to have
: |> : his last name edning on -ski? I hope so.
: |>
: |> I just wonder if he was as proud as his party membership book ( red one)
: |> in the poket on his shirt?
: Actually, dear Mr. Karadjov, he was from the opposite side. As
: a guarder of the black box (if you know what I mean) and later
: as one who revolted against collectivization process, he was
: almost killed. Thousands of people on the square were sreaming
: "death to him!". The 'cool heads' of a few people and his deeds
: during the war (1943,1944) against the BULGARIAN fascist occupiers
: (your ancestors?) saved him his life (we do not count the time
: he spent in prison). This, however, just made him more proud
: of his name.
Colectivism and party membership does not mean two seperate things.
Many communists, especialy from the vilages were put in jail simply
because they did not want to give up their live stock to colective farms.
Hapened everywhere - in USSR in the 1920ies, in Bulgaria in late 1940ies,
in Yugoslavia at the same time period, and elsewhere. So go and ask him
yourselfe - usualy people who were doing something against the Bulgarian
forces in Macedonia during the period 1940-44 , which forces by the way
were mostly composed by people from Macedonia, were ither members or
supporters of the communists, and they actualy did not strugle against the
"occupators" but against the "enemy of the working classes", in this case
the Bulgarian government, for the international victory of the comunism,
so that the working people at last will have the power in their hands.
You get the idea!
Georgi Karadjov
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Radeff
Mr . Karadjov is prone to finding something Bulgarian in every aspect of
Macedonian issue. He assumes that someone's grandfather was of a certain
political bent when its highly unlikely he ever met this Dedo, let alone
know his political preferences. Then he assumes that all who were
registered under names ending in ev or ov in the Solun gymnastica were
Macedonians. Maybe they were from families like the one that was related
to my mother and who found fortune and favor in the Bulgarian government
and could only keep both of them by using Bulgarian names. Possibly some
of the students were not of this ilk. It could be that it was the time
when all macedonians were required to carry those ending or suffer
grievous consequences.
Georgi Karadjov
Radeff (rad...@aol.com) wrote:
: Mr . Karadjov is prone to finding something Bulgarian in every aspect of
: Macedonian issue. He assumes that someone's grandfather was of a certain
I am not proud of what others have founded before me - I am slimply
stating it or bringing it from the dusted shelves of the libraries. I did
not write the articles fron 100 years ago which refered to the slavic
people from Macedonia Bulgarians, did I. Is it my fault that tis people
were actualy able to write and had some integrity( unlike some well
reputable authors from the Yugoslavian stock), so they recorded history.
If you call pride the satisfaction of finding and bringing forward long
buried truths pride, so be it, but you said it, not me!
: political bent when its highly unlikely he ever met this Dedo, let alone
: know his political preferences. Then he assumes that all who were
I have not met this ancestor of mine who was actualy a teacher in this
school, but my grand aunt who is still alive( born in 1904) does remember
him. People like Vanche Mihailov did met him so they included him in
their memoars. Some of the 30,000+ who atended his funeral in 1934 may
still be alive, who knows. As you can see, even if you have not met
somone,it does not mean that you do not know someone. And for his ideas -
he always wore semi-military unifor, simply because they, the VMRO, by his
words, were in a state of war until Macedonia is free from Yugoslavian and
greek opresion.
: registered under names ending in ev or ov in the Solun gymnastica were
: Macedonians. Maybe they were from families like the one that was related
Let's see - the study was conducted on the records from the school, and
the other two shcools - the second men's and first women's ginaziums. The
names that did not end on -ov, -ev, were of the varaiety that even in
Bulgaarian are without such endings. For example Sofiiski, Malnishki,
Levski, will sound realy bad if you try to add -ov, or -ev in them, even
to a non slavic speaker. So you be the judje. And if you asume that the
people were not Macedonians( people from the region of Macedonia), all the
names are listed toghether with the place of birth, and surprise,
surprize, all of them are from places like Prilep. Bitrolia, Kukush,
Voden, you get the idea!
: to my mother and who found fortune and favor in the Bulgarian government
: and could only keep both of them by using Bulgarian names. Possibly some
Do you put Georche Petrov in this category too? After all he became a
minister in the Bulgarian government!
: of the students were not of this ilk. It could be that it was the time
: when all macedonians were required to carry those ending or suffer
: grievous consequences.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From whome dear friend! From the turks, who did relay not care at all,
and I litery mean did not care at all! Maybe from the Greeks, but then
they should have had greek names, did you not think? Whome? I just
simply can not get this people - they make a statement which has no
conection to history and what hapened then, and I mean, litery no
conection!, and they expect to make a point!!!!!!!! Whome I ask again? If
you are so brave to make such a statement, can you back it up with
something, so we, the simple simpletons of the world could vorship you
divine wisdom!
So long for now, and go read some!
Constantin Polychronakos
> rad...@aol.com (Radeff) writes:
> Mr . Karadjov is prone to finding something Bulgarian in every aspect of
> Macedonian issue. He assumes that someone's grandfather was of a certain
> know his political preferences. Then he assumes that all who were
> Macedonians. Maybe they were from families like the one that was related
> and could only keep both of them by using Bulgarian names. Possibly some
> when all macedonians were required to carry those ending or suffer
> grievous consequences.
Under the Ottoman empire, Christians were free to declare any nationality they
chose. In fact, the Ottoman authorities always tended to favor the weaker goups, in the true
spirit of "divide and conquer". If "Macedonian" existed as an ethno-national distinction before
1912, and was as oppressed as you believe it to be, the Turks would have been sure to
support it and foster it as a counterweight to the two groups that really worried about: the
Greeks and the Bulgarians.
Look at any pre-1912 source (and there is plenty of material on Macedonia) and
count the -ovski or -evski names in Macedonia, compared to the -ovs and the -evs. Your hero
Gruev, was a teacher at the Bulgarian gymnasium in Thessaloniki. He and Delchev,
Chakalarov, Chernopeyev, Tatarchev, Miladinov, etc, don't exactly strike me as the kind of
people that would chicken out of using their own proper name, or that they would do it for
some material gain.
Yes, some bulgarian names do end in -ski, but almost always after the name of a
place (e.g. Gabrovski, from Gabrovo), never after a person's name, the latter being a 1944
invention.
It is the people that make the names and not the other way around. You can be
proud of your nationality and of its characteristic names. Just don't expect us to change the
history books to accomodate it.
Regards
Constantin Polychronakos
Borislav Stojanov
Goce Naumoski wrote:
>
> In article <Edina1996Sep...@island.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (Georgi Karadjov) writes:
> |> : Dear Mr. Popov,
> |>
> |> : I cannot say anything but "Yes, I believe you". The question is
> |> : now "Do you believe me?". Can you imagine what a pride it was
> |> : for my grand-father to finally have 'the possibility' to have
> |> : his last name edning on -ski? I hope so.
> |>
> |> I just wonder if he was as proud as his party membership book ( red one)
> |> in the poket on his shirt?
>
> a guarder of the black box (if you know what I mean) and later
> as one who revolted against collectivization process, he was
> almost killed. Thousands of people on the square were sreaming
> "death to him!". The 'cool heads' of a few people and his deeds
> during the war (1943,1944) against the BULGARIAN fascist occupiers
> (your ancestors?) saved him his life (we do not count the time
> he spent in prison). This, however, just made him more proud
> of his name.
>
>
> Regards,
> Goce.
I'm amazed! Your grand-father didn't say a word when his name was
ski-fied but when his land was going to be collectivized he cried with full
force -- unbelievable.
Let me tell you what my grand-mother used to say about people like you
and you grand-father : "te se surbeiat". Sounds more than proudly...not!
PS What else -ski helped him later, except saving him his life?
Plamen Malinov
Goce Naumoski wrote:
> Actually, dear Mr. Karadjov, he was from the opposite side. As
> a guarder of the black box (if you know what I mean) and later
> as one who revolted against collectivization process, he was
> almost killed. Thousands of people on the square were sreaming
> "death to him!". The 'cool heads' of a few people and his deeds
> during the war (1943,1944) against the BULGARIAN fascist occupiers
> (your ancestors?) saved him his life (we do not count the time
> he spent in prison). This, however, just made him more proud
> of his name.
Well Goce,
I want to mention, that Bulgaria was not a fascist country
in the years of WW II. It had a government, which was elected, using
the common known procedures. Bulgaria saved all its Jews - more than
50 000 - although strong German demands. And up to 5th of September,
1944 there was a Soviet Embassy in Sofia, very near to the German one -
Bulgaria had a regular diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union to
that date, when Stalin declared war, without any reasons.
Another point to be mentioned. Bulgarian army was not an occupier
in Vardar Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Northern Greece. Those territories
had been German possesions. Germans invited Bulgarian army to take
police-supervisor functions there, because Bulgaria had strong interests in
those territories. The possesion of them would be decided after the war, and
there were promices from Germans, that they would be given to Bulgaria, if it
helped to the German army. Because of this, it is interesting to mention the
position of Bulgarian government, which send NO ONE Bulgarian solgier to the
fronts, and refused to deport Bulgarian Jews. The fate of Jews in the occupied
from Germany Vardar Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Northern Greece (about 13 000)
was decided by Germans. They were deported (unfortunately with the help of
Bulgarians - they could not refuse) into Germany. From them only 13 survived -
one per thousand. There were strong rumors, that king Boris III was poisoned,
when he returned from his Berlin meeting with Hitler in August 1943 - he again
refused to send Bulgarian army to the East front. Germans offered him a German
airplane with German service, because it was more reliable by them. After landing
in Sofia airport, king Boris III felt himself ill, and three days after died
(special German equip of specialists declared, that he died from heart diseace).
Nevertheless, Bulgarian politics remained unchanged after that event up to
September 1944, when Stalin declared war to Bulgaria.
Plamen M.
Radeff
Nowhere in my previous message did I make mention of the Ottoman empire in
regards to the oppression or non-oppression of Macedonia as is stated in
Constantin Polychronakos's message. I did refer to the Macedonians being
obliged firmly to change their last names by conquering forces and by in
some cases as a insurance towards rewards of wealth and high positions.
Now what little I do know of the time of Gruev is not how he or his
cohorts obtained their last names with the exception of one, my great
uncle. Now in the early days of my great-uncle's life his last name ended
with -ovci or -evci. Surprised.? No one has mentioned that ending. Yet in
the papers I have acquired from my family's past and all the way to the
great-great-great-greats, the names do end in -ovci and -evci. Btw, I did
know a family named Gabrov and often they were called Gabrovci. Back to my
relative, a cohort of Gruev - somehow he ended up in Bulgaria and changed
his name to -eff. He made his mark there and is still revered and
remembered. I also happen to know he had enough heart to remember his
people , too. I believe the problem of all this nitpicking over issues
that most people would not even deign to focus on is just one more thrust
at discreditation and it speaks chiefly to the real intent. How about
focusing on the color of hair and eyes of the Macedonians? That should
keep you busy for a very long time for even my own family has an abundance
of difference in those characteristics.
HRA
Radeff
Bulgaria did not occupy Macedonia yet "The Germans invited the Bulgarian
army to take police-supervisor functions there." This is very interesting
and i t fits right into why my only 2 first cousins on my mother's side
suffered for the rest of their lives after the *Bulgarian army-police*
had to leave and my cousins were released from their imprisonment. Btw,
they were soldiers who were captured by these pseudo-Bulgarian policemen
and they were not the only ones taken as prisoners of war in Macedonia.
Now it would be of interest to know how they were treated at this branch
of the Sofia-Hilton. They were not treated very well at all. In fact, they
suffered unrelentless pain for the rest of their lives. One of them
decided he could not cope with it any longer as he went into his later
years. The other one wrote about his ordeal in his newspaper in Bitola
where he was a journalist. The copy of this feature is here in America and
is being translated into English. It will be added into our family
history. HRA
Radeff
Since Mr. Karadjov does freely admit he is in the practice of bringing
down materials from dusty library stacks, it would not be a wrongful
assumption to believe he has read more recent publications as well.
Therefore, he can surely see that anyone can be published and not everyone
needs to be credible. Btw, you had better wear rubber gloves when dealing
with the wormy, moldy pages of those old tomes. They do carry diseases.
The Dedo I referred to was not yours. It was the one you cavalierly
labeled as being bent towards communism. Remember? Surprise! Surprise!
Macedonia has many different ethnic nationalities. Surely, you must have
come across this fact from your many studies into the past or are you in
denial. There were no -ski endings to Macedonian names in that era. I have
only to look at my own relative (not the one I referred to in my earlier
post) who I believe possibly surpassed Mr. Petrov in his political and
diplomatic standings in Bulgaria and never really forgot he was a
Macedonian. He was different from the reference to my other relative and
you may have taken his books down from the dusty stacks, too. Let me know
if you can surmise his identity. Well, if we eliminate the Turks and the
Greeks, who is left holding the bag? The other 2 choices you may have
guessed did a lot to repress the Macedonian people and made them change
their names, their schools, their churches. That is why there is such a
difficulty today in removing the imprints of their reigns off the backs of
the Macedonians. Its allowed you to continuously go back to the past at
the point when it all began and claim it as a part of the heritage and not
truthfully as a part of one of the oppressions or conquering forces.
Truly, I am sorrowed that you would indulge in self-denigration by calling
yourself a "simpleton. Then I am buoyed by your acknowledgement of my
wisdom. HRA
Radeff
Georgi Karadjov
Interesting, why did you have to post it twice?
Radeff (rad...@aol.com) wrote:
: Since Mr. Karadjov does freely admit he is in the practice of bringing
: down materials from dusty library stacks, it would not be a wrongful
: assumption to believe he has read more recent publications as well.
: Therefore, he can surely see that anyone can be published and not everyone
: needs to be credible. Btw, you had better wear rubber gloves when dealing
I have read reasent stuff. The only difference between me and you is
that I can make the difference between credible publications and
sharlatans beging for atention, when in your case yu can only recognize as
credible the things in the Skopje aproval list. For example one of the
contemporary authors I do respect a lot is Profesor Otto Kronshtain from
Austria - have you read any of his works?
: with the wormy, moldy pages of those old tomes. They do carry diseases.
Is that why you do not touch them at all?
: The Dedo I referred to was not yours. It was the one you cavalierly
: labeled as being bent towards communism. Remember? Surprise! Surprise!
: Macedonia has many different ethnic nationalities. Surely, you must have
Of course there were! Lets see - there were greeks, turks, serbs( a
very few of them), vlahs, some jews in Solun, a yes, I should not forget
the Bulgarians, who by offical Turkish sensuses were half the population
of Macedonia, some albanians, and the mixtrure of some others. The info
taken from old dusty volumes from the begining of the century. Any
problems here?
: come across this fact from your many studies into the past or are you in
: denial. There were no -ski endings to Macedonian names in that era. I have
I just wonder, why did the -ski apeared? Have you ever meditated on this
phenomenon?
: only to look at my own relative (not the one I referred to in my earlier
: post) who I believe possibly surpassed Mr. Petrov in his political and
: diplomatic standings in Bulgaria and never really forgot he was a
: Macedonian. He was different from the reference to my other relative and
: you may have taken his books down from the dusty stacks, too. Let me know
: if you can surmise his identity. Well, if we eliminate the Turks and the
Let me see - can it be by any chance Dimitar Talev - his books I did
took down from the dusty shelves and read three times each. But no, he
was not a politician! Who can that be! Camon - surprise me!
: Greeks, who is left holding the bag? The other 2 choices you may have
: guessed did a lot to repress the Macedonian people and made them change
: their names, their schools, their churches. That is why there is such a
Of represions, only the serbs have this distinct honour - they closed
close to 2000 schools in Vardar Macedonia fter 1918, killed or expeled all
the prists, teachers, learned people and tried to put ich at the end of
the names. I have mett people who have been beated by serbs teachers for
speacking bulgarian in scholl. Iteresting?
Interesting who the second group could be - can it be the Albanians?
: difficulty today in removing the imprints of their reigns off the backs of
: the Macedonians. Its allowed you to continuously go back to the past at
: the point when it all began and claim it as a part of the heritage and not
: truthfully as a part of one of the oppressions or conquering forces.
?!?! Are you telling me that the people who wrote about the slavic
people of Macedonia as bulgarians were incopetent morones? I do not thing
that the New Your Tomes, nor the London Times emplied morones in the
begining of the sentury? Is that what you are implaing?
: Truly, I am sorrowed that you would indulge in self-denigration by calling
: yourself a "simpleton. Then I am buoyed by your acknowledgement of my
: wisdom. HRA
But of course I will call my humble selfe a "simpleton" when compared to
you - after all you are involved in ceation of new history! I simply can
not compete here!