Vapcarov was "Bulgarian", HUH???
Boris Docevski
> ZEMJA
>
> Taa zemja,
> sega shto ja chekoram,
> taa zemja,
> v prolet shto ja budi jugot,
> taa zemja-svoja ne ja znam,
> taa zemja,
> prostete: e tugja!
>
> Rano trgam.
> Po fabrichen drum
> bezbroj rubashki
> se tiskaat,
> se rojat.
> Sleani sme so srce,
> so um,
> no zemjava...chunki ne e moja!
>
> Nad mojata zemja
> v prolet
> sjaj se pliska,
> vodopadi grmat
> od sonce
> nabliknato.
> Ja sekjavash v srce,
> ti, nea za bliska
> i gledash kaj skokum
> bezbroj cvekja niknat.
>
> Nad mojata zemja.
> do neboto
> Pirin se kreva.
> Borovite v bura
> Ilindenski prikazni peat.
> Nad Ohrid modrinata
> vo prostorot se sleva,
> a podolu ushte
> na Egejot dalgi se leat.
>
> Sal kje si spomnam.
> I krvta v mig kje sjuri
> v srceto, koe
> se topi v nekakva nezhnost...
> Moj roden kraj! Kraj lichen...
> Lulan v buri,
> poen so krv
> srede vitlavici mrezhni!
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia
http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/faq
http://www.lebisol.com
karadjov
: Chew some more!!!
Chew what Bore? The original was writen in Bulgarian, not in "L of M"!
Do I have to say more?
And if you do not belive me, you can go and ask his sister. She is
still alive and lives in Bansko!
Georgi Karadjov
: > ZEMJA
:
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Boris Docevski
gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
> Chew what Bore? The original was writen in Bulgarian, not in "L of M"!
> Do I have to say more?
No, you don't. So what if it was written in Bulgaria, and in
Bulgarian??? Does that take anything from the message he sends??? Isn't he
clear enough?
karadjov
: In article <Edina1996Jun2...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
: gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
: > Chew what Bore? The original was writen in Bulgarian, not in "L of M"!
: > Do I have to say more?
: No, you don't. So what if it was written in Bulgaria, and in
: Bulgarian??? Does that take anything from the message he sends??? Isn't he
: clear enough?
Did you study any literature and history dear child? Obviously not!
And if you want to talk about mesages, what about the mesage his siter is
sending. Or you will tell me now that he and his sister were from
different nationalities?
Georgi Karadjov
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Boris Docevski
To everyone interested to learn more about this great Macedonian poet:
Read his biography that I supplied as a separate posting. :-)
karadjov
om.compulink.com> <bd18-30069...@ups31.cit.cornell.edu>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: To everyone interested to learn more about this great Macedonian poet:
: Read his biography that I supplied as a separate posting. :-)
In wich biography was mentioned that he was born in Bulgaria and nothing
to indicate that he was not a Bulgarian. In the same biography was also
not mentioned any words said by his emidiate family - siter, mother, and
so on, on what they think are, and what their brother and son, was. If
one reads some real biography, he/she will find out that what Borkata is
saing is a total noncense.
Georgi Karadjov
----------------------------------------------------
: Come play Realms of Despair! http://www.game.org :
----------------------------------------------------
Boris Docevski
Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish sarcasm?
karadjov
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish sarcasm?
Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
such confidents?
Georgi Karadjov
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Vladimir Stoyanovski
On 1 Jul 1996, karadjov wrote:
> Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
> like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
> such confidents?
>
> Georgi Karadjov
I thought I'd jump in here. Kocho Racin (born: Kosta Apostolov Solev in
Veles, Makedonija) almost became my relative. He changed his last name
from "solev" to "Racin," because of his love, whose name is Raca. "Baba"
Raca, as we call her, is a relative from my mother's side. Unfortunately,
the life of a revolutionery that he lived prior to WW2 did not allow him
to start a family. If only he lived to see Free Macedonia!
Kocho Racin was one of the greatest Macedonian authors, best known for his
pre-WW2 book "White Dawns," which he published in Croatia (1936, I think).
It has been translated into many languages, and boy, was I surprised to
see it at a small library in Oklahoma. He did not publish his books in
the "brotherly" Bulgaria. That may well be the reason why Bulgars never
"took" him as theirs. He was killed in 1943 on Mount Lopushnik. We were
tought in school that it was an accident. I have also heard some
speculations, but that is not relevant.
Anyway. . . Will Mr. Karadjov "baptize" him into a "Bulgar?"
Vladimir D. Stoyanovski
vdst...@utdallas.edu ////
o\ /o
|------------ooO--(_)--Ooo---------------|
| Long Live Macedonia is a |
| Macedonia Macedonian Nation|
|------------+----------------------------------------+------------|
| " Never give in, never give in, never, never, never; in anything |
| great or small, large or petty, never give in. " |
| - W. Churchill |
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
karadjov
Vladimir Stoyanovski (vdst...@utdallas.edu) wrote:
: On 1 Jul 1996, karadjov wrote:
: > Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
: > like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
: > such confidents?
: >
: > Georgi Karadjov
: I thought I'd jump in here. Kocho Racin (born: Kosta Apostolov Solev in
You decided to jump in, but did noy say anything relative to the matter,
in this case Vapsarov. Why am I not surprised??
: Veles, Makedonija) almost became my relative. He changed his last name
: from "solev" to "Racin," because of his love, whose name is Raca. "Baba"
: Raca, as we call her, is a relative from my mother's side. Unfortunately,
: the life of a revolutionery that he lived prior to WW2 did not allow him
: to start a family. If only he lived to see Free Macedonia!
: Kocho Racin was one of the greatest Macedonian authors, best known for his
: pre-WW2 book "White Dawns," which he published in Croatia (1936, I think).
: It has been translated into many languages, and boy, was I surprised to
: see it at a small library in Oklahoma. He did not publish his books in
: the "brotherly" Bulgaria. That may well be the reason why Bulgars never
: "took" him as theirs. He was killed in 1943 on Mount Lopushnik. We were
: tought in school that it was an accident. I have also heard some
: speculations, but that is not relevant.
: Anyway. . . Will Mr. Karadjov "baptize" him into a "Bulgar?"
I will not. I can "baptize" him Macedonist and Communist, but not
Bulgarian. He had right to express his opinions, even if they were mearly
the political opinions of his party.
Hapy now Vladko, chado hubavo?
Georgi Karadjov
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Boris Docevski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
Blah-blah-blah and some more... :-)
Boris Docevski
> Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> : Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish sarcasm?
>
> Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
> like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
> such confidents?
No, but I can READ what he wrote.
karadjov
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
: gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
: > Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: > : Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish sarcasm?
: >
: > Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
: > like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
: > such confidents?
: No, but I can READ what he wrote.
And I am not sure you have even held in your hand "Motorny Pesni" nor
have you read the whole thing. Yu sure will change you mind when you read
ALL of it, not some versess where the poet talks about something and you
interprete it as something else. I will chaleng you to post even one poem
where he sais that he is not a Bulgarian.
And if you say that Vapsarov had some different opinions from that of
his clossest relatives, in this case mother, sister, cousins, neephew, and
so on, what does it makes him. If his whole family is Bulgarian, then
what is he - is he some mutatioon that made him separate. Did he
possessed some gens( you will know, after all that 's what you are
studing) that made his different from his family?
karadjov
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
: gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
: Blah-blah-blah and some more... :-)
Borka, I am mistaken, or you are not actualy 21, but 11?
Georgi Karadjov
: Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
: http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia
: http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/faq
: http://www.lebisol.com
:
Borislav Stojanov
In article <bd18-02079...@ups17.cit.cornell.edu>, bd...@cornell.edu
(Boris Docevski) wrote:
>In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
>gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
>
>> Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>> : Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish sarcasm?
>>
>> Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
>> like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
>> such confidents?
>
>
> No, but I can READ what he wrote.
You are reading what you want to hear, not the facts, stupid.
--
Borislav Stojanov
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> <Pine.SUN.3.91.960701...@infoserv.utdallas.edu> <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <bd18-02079...@ups17.cit.cornell.edu>
> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
> Date: 2 Jul 96 16:24:56 UTC
> Lines: 19
> Xref: mel.dit.csiro.au alt.news.macedonia:17712 soc.culture.europe:66162
>
> Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> : In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
> : gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
>
>
> Borka, I am mistaken, or you are not actualy 21, but 11?
>
> Georgi Karadjov
>
yes, you are right. You are a mistake. A big one.
Haven't you bloody Bulagrians got your own news group?
Toni.
Boris Docevski
In article <bkstoja-0207...@mac101868.med.cornell.edu>,
bks...@mail.med.cornell.edu (Borislav Stojanov) wrote:
> You are reading what you want to hear, not the facts, stupid.
Se smeel crep na shutar, no ispadnal ushte poshutar. :-))))))))))))
gal...@pathcom.com
In article <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:trash
Georgie Karajdov, I am going to call you a flat out liar and a fabricator and
let you prove yourself otherwise. Every reply you give has a pattern of
denying, then alluding to some source, but not quoting or posting anything
relevent to the source. e.g. you mention that Vapsarov family was Bulgarian
but have no proof other than saying "go ask his sister". So my dear bed-
wetting, thumb-sucking infant child, you go ask his sister!
John Mangov
karadjov
gal...@pathcom.com wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
: gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:trash
Until 1991, one of Vapsarovs relatives, Kolio Vapsarov, son of Boris
Vapsarov who is brother of the poet, was general counsul of Bulgaria in
Toronto. I have talked to him. My uncle knows his closely.
Do you thing it is enough curentials for you?
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Vesna Sarafov
>
> Until 1991, one of Vapsarovs relatives, Kolio Vapsarov, son of Boris
> Vapsarov who is brother of the poet, was general counsul of Bulgaria in
> Toronto. I have talked to him. My uncle knows his closely.
>
> Do you thing it is enough curentials for you?
No I do not think so!
My last name should be familiar to you. I have relatives in Aegean
Macedonia who speak Greek, and also relatives in Pirin Macedonia, speaking
Bulgarian. One of my relatives in Aegean Macedonia teaches Religion in
Greek. You probably didn't expect them to forget their native language.
The governments of the two countries (today Bulgaria and Greece) made them
use their languages as official. But when they speak to me, they speak
MACEDONIAN.
karadjov
210804...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <01bb69bd.9c400f80$89ff1ec6@vesna>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Vesna Sarafov (b...@ganet.net) wrote:
:
: >
: > Until 1991, one of Vapsarovs relatives, Kolio Vapsarov, son of Boris
: > Vapsarov who is brother of the poet, was general counsul of Bulgaria in
: > Toronto. I have talked to him. My uncle knows his closely.
: >
: > Do you thing it is enough curentials for you?
: No I do not think so!
: My last name should be familiar to you. I have relatives in Aegean
Aha, a potential relative of Boris and Hristo Sarafov - the first
called a traitor and bugarash by people like Borkata, his smal brothers,
Hristo - consider to be one of the graetest bulgarian actors( the national
theater in Sofia bears his name). I hope that you know the joke about "Ke
go igra nash Riste tsarot?". If not I can tell it to you!
So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
: Macedonia who speak Greek, and also relatives in Pirin Macedonia, speaking
: Bulgarian. One of my relatives in Aegean Macedonia teaches Religion in
: Greek. You probably didn't expect them to forget their native language.
: The governments of the two countries (today Bulgaria and Greece) made them
: use their languages as official. But when they speak to me, they speak
: MACEDONIAN.
And how do you know that what these people - the Vapsarovs, spoke a
language different, from the one they speak today? My grandmother was
born in Ralsog - 5 km from Bansko - both towns speack a dialect which is
miles from the official Bulgarian, and lightyears from the official
"Macedonian". But go and tell someone from Bansko that his language is
not Bulgarian. I will not like to be near that incident. You know, even
under the Turks, there were no Turks living in Bansko, and the people were
bearing pistols openly. You know they are not a lot to be intimidated,
and do as they are told. So your point is so irelevent. It is not
important in what language I spoke to this guy. It could have been
english. It is important what he, his father, his uncle( the poet ) were
perciving themseves to be and it was not what you wanted them to be.
Happy now?
Georgi Karadjov
Vesna Sarafov
> Aha, a potential relative of Boris and Hristo Sarafov - the first
> called a traitor and bugarash by people like Borkata, his smal brothers,
> Hristo - consider to be one of the graetest bulgarian actors( the
national
> theater in Sofia bears his name). I hope that you know the joke about
"Ke
> go igra nash Riste tsarot?". If not I can tell it to you!
Are you trying to say I am Bulgarian, also?
>
> So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
> language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
> day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
>
Very different. MAKEDONSKI :-)
> And how do you know that what these people - the Vapsarovs, spoke a
> language different, from the one they speak today?
Do you know?
My grandmother was
> born in Ralsog - 5 km from Bansko - both towns speack a dialect which is
> miles from the official Bulgarian, and lightyears from the official
> "Macedonian". But go and tell someone from Bansko that his language is
> not Bulgarian. I will not like to be near that incident.
Of course, if you ask them, because as I said they are afraid from the
government, but with me they would speak MAKEDONSKI. I don't know about
your mother, I am talking about the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin
Macedonia.
You know, even
> under the Turks, there were no Turks living in Bansko,
Have you been born that time?
and the people were
> bearing pistols openly. You know they are not a lot to be intimidated,
> and do as they are told. So your point is so irelevent. It is not
> important in what language I spoke to this guy. It could have been
> english.
But unfortunately, wasn't any language, was Macedonian, our native
language.
It is important what he, his father, his uncle( the poet ) were
> perciving themseves to be and it was not what you wanted them to be.
They have to. The Bulgarian government made them. You see what is going
on now with those Macedonians in Bulgaria trying to perceive themselves as
Macedonians?
>
> Happy now?
>
Of course not. Again you are trying to convince me, my relatives are
Bulgarians, which means I am Bulgarian, too?
Until 1991, one of Vapsarovs relatives, Kolio Vapsarov, son of Boris
Vapsarov who is brother of the poet, was general counsul of Bulgaria in
Toronto. I have talked to him. My uncle knows his closely.
Do you thing it is enough curentials for you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
All in all, by stating Vapcarov relative present Bulgaria and even speak
Bulgarian, doesn't prove the point. My relative lives in USA and present
USA, but he is still Macedonian, and all of us, his relatives are still
Macedonians.
Petros Liapis
............... ............
> : No, but I can READ what he wrote.
>
> And I am not sure you have even held in your hand "Motorny Pesni" nor
> have you read the whole thing. Yu sure will change you mind when you read
> ALL of it, not some versess where the poet talks about something and you
> interprete it as something else. I will chaleng you to post even one poem
> where he sais that he is not a Bulgarian.
>
> And if you say that Vapsarov had some different opinions from that of
> his clossest relatives, in this case mother, sister, cousins, neephew, and
> so on, what does it makes him. If his whole family is Bulgarian, then
> what is he - is he some mutatioon that made him separate. Did he
> possessed some gens( you will know, after all that 's what you are
> studing) that made his different from his family?
>
> Georgi Karadjov
Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... that is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
.... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
...according to Boris always !!!
Petros liapis
Petros Liapis
Toni Stojanovski wrote:
>
> In article <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> > Borka, I am mistaken, or you are not actualy 21, but 11?
> >
> > Georgi Karadjov
> >
> Dear Georgi,
> yes, you are right. You are a mistake. A big one.
> Haven't you bloody Bulagrians got your own news group?
> Toni.
Hey Toni !!
Go back to the bit.listserv.whatever you came from !!!!
Petros Liapis
Petros Liapis
> >
> > Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do not think
> > like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can speak with
> > such confidents?
>
>
...So what Boris !!!!???
I am reading a book written by Elias Kazan (I hope you know who he is) written in
English.
I read one of Kazantzakis books translated in English too !!!!
It is not what you read it is what the author WAS !!!!
Vasparov's parents were BULGARIANS, therefore he is BULGARIAN !!!
why it is so hard to accept that ??
Petros Liapis
Borislav Stojanov
In article <01bb69bd.9c400f80$89ff1ec6@vesna>, "Vesna Sarafov"
<b...@ganet.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Until 1991, one of Vapsarovs relatives, Kolio Vapsarov, son of Boris
>> Vapsarov who is brother of the poet, was general counsul of Bulgaria in
>> Toronto. I have talked to him. My uncle knows his closely.
>>
>> Do you thing it is enough curentials for you?
>
>No I do not think so!
>My last name should be familiar to you. I have relatives in Aegean
>Macedonia who speak Greek, and also relatives in Pirin Macedonia, speaking
>Bulgarian. One of my relatives in Aegean Macedonia teaches Religion in
>Greek. You probably didn't expect them to forget their native language.
>The governments of the two countries (today Bulgaria and Greece) made them
>use their languages as official. But when they speak to me, they speak
>MACEDONIAN.
And what's the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian? I always
talked to my grand parents, refugees from Macedonia, in one language -
Bulgarian. The aberration, an example of which you are, is created by
people who cheaply sold themselves to the Serbs. And something else;
because in Greece the Macedonian minority is forbiden to use its native
tongue dosn't mean that the refugees from Macedonia and Thrace in Bulgaria
were made to speak some "other" language, nice try, but it doesn't work.
I asked many times before and have never received an answer, probably you
may answer me: how many refugees from what was Macedonia who ended up in
Bulgaria did go to school to study "the foreign to them" Bulgarian
language? Let me give you my answer that I got after talking to thousands
of refugees, including my grand parents: ZERO. If you can't prove when and
how those refugees, including your relatives in Pirin Macedonia, "learned"
to speak Bulgarian you owe to shut up and read some REAL history books.
--
Borislav Stojanov
karadjov
Vesna Sarafov (b...@ganet.net) wrote:
: > Aha, a potential relative of Boris and Hristo Sarafov - the first
: > called a traitor and bugarash by people like Borkata, his smal brothers,
: > Hristo - consider to be one of the graetest bulgarian actors( the
: national
: > theater in Sofia bears his name). I hope that you know the joke about
: "Ke
: > go igra nash Riste tsarot?". If not I can tell it to you!
: Are you trying to say I am Bulgarian, also?
I do not know whjat you are. It is entirely up to belive what do you
want. I am just saing that this two guys were Bulgarians. Do you have
any relation to them?
: >
: > So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
: > language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
: > day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
: >
: Very different. MAKEDONSKI :-)
How different. Was it different from the laguage they used on the stree
to talk to the rest of the people? And I am asking again - did you need a
translator.
: > And how do you know that what these people - the Vapsarovs, spoke a
: > language different, from the one they speak today?
: Do you know?
Of course - the language of his native town Bansko is by no means
"Macedonian". It is hard to find more Bulgarian people than Banskalii.
: My grandmother was
: > born in Ralsog - 5 km from Bansko - both towns speack a dialect which is
: > miles from the official Bulgarian, and lightyears from the official
: > "Macedonian". But go and tell someone from Bansko that his language is
: > not Bulgarian. I will not like to be near that incident.
: Of course, if you ask them, because as I said they are afraid from the
: government, but with me they would speak MAKEDONSKI. I don't know about
: your mother, I am talking about the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin
: Macedonia.
And the towns mentioned above are in Macedonia. I have relatives from
Raslog, Yakoruda, Petrich, Blagoevgrad - all of them natives. They all
regard themselves Bulgarians and speack the local dialect of Bulgarian.
Do you thing tehy will lai to their own relatives of what they are. I
have very close friends from all over Pirin Macedonia - do you thing tehy
will lai to me? Do you thing that I do not know what they are? And I
again I ask what is the difference between the language they speack and
the language they used to comunicated with you? If there was such big
difference, as you imply, were did they learned to used this "new
Bulgarian" language. And if this "new" language is not their native
langauge, why is it that they do not use this native langauge to
comunicate between themselves? After all, even in Agean Macedonia, the
slavic population uses the native slavic dialect ot comunicate between
themselves, and greek to comunicated with the authoriteis.
Did it ever occure to you, that your "Modern Macedonian" is so far away
from the native speach of the people of Pirin Macedonia, that they just
did you a favour and spocke in it, simply because you would have not
understud them if they were speacking the native dialect, which by the way
is much closer to the dilacets spocken across all three parts of
Macedonia, before the introduction of "the Official Macedonian" in 1945?
:
: You know, even
: > under the Turks, there were no Turks living in Bansko,
: Have you been born that time?
No, but there is such thing as history - a thing that is foreign to you!
: and the people were
: > bearing pistols openly. You know they are not a lot to be intimidated,
: > and do as they are told. So your point is so irelevent. It is not
: > important in what language I spoke to this guy. It could have been
: > english.
: But unfortunately, wasn't any language, was Macedonian, our native
: language.
Yes it was the native language, but it was not what you call
"Macedonian". Soru to disapoint you!
: It is important what he, his father, his uncle( the poet ) were
: > perciving themseves to be and it was not what you wanted them to be.
: They have to. The Bulgarian government made them. You see what is going
: on now with those Macedonians in Bulgaria trying to perceive themselves as
: Macedonians?
And how did the goverment made them? And if the governemt made them,
how different if this laguage from the langauge these people were using
before they were "made to"? I would like some solid arguments here, not
slogans and one liners, please!
: >
: > Happy now?
: >
: Of course not. Again you are trying to convince me, my relatives are
: Bulgarians, which means I am Bulgarian, too?
I am not tring to convince you what you are. It entierly up to you to
find yout and define. I am just giving you some facts, and am asking you
some questions, o one asked you before. If you do not like the facts
given or the answers of this questions, bad luck! Can do anything about
that. You can make your own conclusions. After all you are big girl,
are't you. You do not need someone else to make up your mind!
karadjov
Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: ............... ............
: > : No, but I can READ what he wrote.
: >
: > And I am not sure you have even held in your hand "Motorny Pesni" nor
: ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
: Petros liapis
Petros Liapis
karadjov wrote:
>
> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
> : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
> : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
> : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
> : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
> : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
> : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
> : ...according to Boris always !!!
>
> I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
> not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
> see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
back to his sences !!!!
Petros liapis
>
> Georgi Karadjov
Stavros N. Karageorgis
>karadjov wrote:
>>
>> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
>> : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against
>Boris!!!
>> : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian
>kids!!
>> : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
>> : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
>> : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
>> : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
>> : ...according to Boris always !!!
Dear Petro,
Who the heck are you to determine the ethno-national identity of people living
today, on the basis of the imputed or revealed ethno-national identity of
their ancestors or their relatives? You've got it all wrong. The problem with
the nationalist 'Macedonians' is the OPPOSITE of what you insist it is.
It works like this; Since I am 'Macedonian' therefore both my parents, and
their parents, and their parents, and so on MUST have also been (to wit, felt
themselves to be) 'Macedonian'. You seem to be under the assumption that one's
ethno-national identity is some kind of innate, primordial quality, the
sum-total of the genes and self-identification of one's ancestors. Well, it is
not. Both you and other nationalists of all 'varieties' should FINALLY figure
it out, and get with the 'program'.
If Boris Docevski feels himself to be ethno-nationally a 'Macedonian' nothing
you say about him or his ancestors will do anything. Especially, if you say it
the way and others do. His rationale for feeling that way is IRRELEVANT. It
may very well (as I think, myself) be factually erroneous. So what? The
problem with Boris and others like him is that they seem to expect that if one
accepts that he and other are who they say they are, one has PERFORCE to
accept their rationale, as well as their entire national mythology. This is
sheer obfuscation, bad logic, and bad strategy, to boot.
You and Georgi should stick NOT to what Boris is, since this is entirely his
business and entirely his own 'baby', but to debunking with credible evidence
the claims he makes, and the ethno-national identities he imputes to others,
past and present. If Boris and others claim that the Ancient Macedonians are
the ancestors of the modern ethno-national 'Macedonians' this does not mean
that because his statement is entirely bogus, he thereby ceases BEING what he
self-identifies as, to wit a 'Macedonian' ethno-nationally.
>>
>> I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
>> not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
>> see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
Tell me Georgi, why exactly is it any of your concern if 'Borkata' sees the
'truth' so far as HE, himself, and HIS ethno-national identity is concerned?
Who annointed you or anybody else 'Lord Protector and Truth-implanter' of the
'ignorant masses'? As a good Christian would you go up to a Muslim and tell
him, hey buddy, you are not REALLY a 'Muslim' because your theology and
theodicy is 'wrong'? Come on . . .
>No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that
>will bring him
>back to his sences !!!!
Maybe you should do the same to yourself, dear Petro!
>
> Petros liapis
>>
>> Georgi Karadjov
Stavros N. Karageorgis C.Phil.
UCLA - Sociology
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
> language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
> day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
> Georgi Karadjov
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dutch and German languages are that similar that both nations can understand each
other's language.
Why don't you try to persuade Dutch people that they do not know what they are
and tell them they are German?
What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
That St. Naum and St.Kliment were Bulgarians only because they worked in Bulgaria
for a certain period of time? This is a trivial example of a lack of common sense.
Then you are American and I am Australian. Is that what you are trying to prove?
And why don't you Bulgarians make your own news group soc.culture.bulgaria or
alt.news.bulgaria?
Is there any possibility that we get rid of you?
Think! Use your brain! You can't make friends if you keep offending them.
Toni.
Toni Stojanovski
In article <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk>, Petros Liapis <hd...@westminster.ac.uk> writes:
> <31DD0EF7...@westminster.ac.uk> <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux28.wmin.ac.uk
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m)
> Xref: mel.dit.csiro.au alt.news.macedonia:17788 soc.culture.europe:66400
>
> karadjov wrote:
> >
> > Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>
> > : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
> > : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
>
> > : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
> > : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
> > : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
> > : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
> > : ...according to Boris always !!!
> >
> > I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
> > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
> > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
Thirdly, you offend someone and gain support from another "good christian"
from Greece.
Is this why you call yourself a "good christian"?
>
> No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
> back to his sences !!!!
What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
Look at the wars in this century.
It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
You do not reserve regards,
Toni.
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <01bb6a36.e4631ea0$a6ff1ec6@vesna>, b...@ganet.net (Vesna Sarafov)
says...
>
>> Aha, a potential relative of Boris and Hristo Sarafov - the first
>> called a traitor and bugarash by people like Borkata, his smal brothers,
>> Hristo - consider to be one of the graetest bulgarian actors (the national
>> theater in Sofia bears his name). I hope that you know the joke about "Ke
>> go igra nash Riste tsarot?". If not I can tell it to you!
>
>Are you trying to say I am Bulgarian, also?
Stupid question Number 1.
You couldn't deny that Boris Sarafov and almost all of the participants in
Iliden uprising were Bulgarians, and that's why you try to depart from the
subject.
>> So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
>> language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
>> day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
>
>Very different. MAKEDONSKI :-)
Following your logic, all bulgarians speak MAKEDONSKI. Are you trying to
say I am Makedonec, also?
>> And how do you know that what these people - the Vapsarovs, spoke a
>> language different, from the one they speak today?
>
>Do you know?
Stupid question Number 2.
Look at the reprint of the Vapcarovs poems, published some 10 years ago,
and containing photocopies of his original manuscripts. The language is
Bulgarian, the orthography is the pre-WWII bulgarian one and contains
the letter:
ooo
o
ooooo
o o
ooooo , the letter which your teachers like Blazhe Konevski and
similar bastards hated so much and excluded from the makedonski alphabet.
And it is one of the reasons why your makedonski language is so ridiculous.
You must write, for example,
oooo oooo oooo o o o o
o o o o o oo o o
o oooo oooo o o o ooooo
o o o o oo o o o
oooo o oooo o o o o , but pronounce
oooo ooo oooo oooo o o o o
o o o o o o oo o o
o oooo oooo oooo o o o ooooo
o o o o o o oo o o o
oooo oooo o oooo o o o o. Or in brief, your language: 1)was
additionally distorted only because its creators regarded the above
forbidden letter as 'too bulgarian'; 2) was alienated from the language
of Dame Gruev, Goce Delchev and so on, to a such extent that you cannot
claim to be continuators of their life-work. The foundations of your
nation start with Lasar Kolishevski, and even not the whole Misirkov is
yours.
>My grandmother was
>> born in Ralsog - 5 km from Bansko - both towns speack a dialect which is
>> miles from the official Bulgarian, and lightyears from the official
>> "Macedonian". But go and tell someone from Bansko that his language is
>> not Bulgarian. I will not like to be near that incident.
>
>Of course, if you ask them, because as I said they are afraid from the
>government, but with me they would speak MAKEDONSKI. I don't know about
^^^^^^^^^^
Do you mean the present bulg. government? But it is a staging jest, to
say the least. Everybody is free to express his/her opinion and should
do this in order this corrupted commi gang to be overthrown.
>your mother, I am talking about the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin
>Macedonia.
You are talking neither from the name of 'the Macedonians in Aegean and
Pirin Macedonia' nor from the name of the bulgarians in Albania.
>You know, even
>> under the Turks, there were no Turks living in Bansko,
>
>Have you been born that time?
Stupid question Number 3. A very-very stupid one.
>and the people were
>> bearing pistols openly. You know they are not a lot to be intimidated,
>> and do as they are told. So your point is so irelevent. It is not
>> important in what language I spoke to this guy. It could have been
>> english.
>
>But unfortunately, wasn't any language, was Macedonian, our native
>language.
This is the way the makedonski history is written. You dare to hold what
had been the language used in a private conversation you hadn't attended.
> It is important what he, his father, his uncle( the poet ) were
>> perciving themseves to be and it was not what you wanted them to be.
>
>They have to. The Bulgarian government made them.
And what about the times when a B. government and state didn't exist?
> You see what is going
>on now with those Macedonians in Bulgaria trying to perceive themselves as
>Macedonians?
What is going with these guys besides the money they get from abroad ?
Some years ago these people relied on Belgrade not on Skopie. They,
contrary to the aims of VMRO-SMD, didn't even speak about free and
independent macedonian republic.In other words, they are servian servants.
>> Happy now?
>
>Of course not. Again you are trying to convince me, my relatives are
>Bulgarians, which means I am Bulgarian, too?
Ask your relatives, try to read some books published outside Yugoslavia
and you'll understand who are you. One cannot choose his/her parents and
alter their national feelings.
Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski.
P.S. Vapcarov in the translations presented by B.D. is awful. Read in the
original and you'll enjoy the real Vapcarov.
karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk>, Petros Liapis <hd...@westminster.ac.uk> writes:
: > <31DD0EF7...@westminster.ac.uk> <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>
: > NNTP-Posting-Host: ux28.wmin.ac.uk
: > Mime-Version: 1.0
: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m)
: > Xref: mel.dit.csiro.au alt.news.macedonia:17788 soc.culture.europe:66400
: >
: > karadjov wrote:
: > >
: > > Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: >
: >
: > > : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
: > > : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
: >
: > > : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
: > > : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
: > > : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: >
: > > : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
: > > : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
: > > : ...according to Boris always !!!
: > >
: > > I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
: > > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
: > > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
: First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
: Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
Tonche, le Tonche, moche ubavo, shto si se Tonche u konski gaz zavrelo?
First of all the memories of my ancestors, many of whom have been mmbers
of VMRO compelsme "to work at it" Second - I am from Macedonia, like it
or not- not from RoM but from Macedonia, and most of my relatives are from
there. If you can not see the difference between being from RoM and
Macedonia - to bat for you. It is not called a.n.RoM. isn't it?
: Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
: someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
ethnicity Bulgarian, by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
one. She may leave you!
And not, I am not St. Ivan. And I did not change the name of the young
and childsih individual in question. See - Toni, Tonche - if you are
"macedonian" as you clime you will be able to see the difference. In the
same facion -Boris - Borka, Borko, Borche,Bore, Borischo and so on. You
can chose one!
: Thirdly, you offend someone and gain support from another "good christian"
: from Greece.
: Is this why you call yourself a "good christian"?
Hey Tonche, I did not offend any one. I just stated the truth, as any
good christian is obligated to do! Aren't you?
: >
: > No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
: > back to his sences !!!!
: What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
: By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
: Look at the wars in this century.
: It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
I will not say friends - just sencible people schooling a young boy who
does not behave as a civilaized person. And yes, a bucket of could ice is
very cristian. After all no corprolar punishment, as prescribed by the
Bible, is not involved in the upbringing of our young!
: You do not reserve regards,
: Toni.
So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
Georgi Karadjov
---------------------------------------------------------------------
: Internet Direct. Have you heard about our :
: (416)233-2999, 1000 lines Do-It-Yourself Webserver? :
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karadjov
Stavros N. Karageorgis (kara...@ucla.edu) wrote:
: >karadjov wrote:
: >>
: >> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: >> : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against
: >Boris!!!
: >> : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian
: >kids!!
: >> : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
: >> : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
: >> : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: >> : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
: >> : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
: >> : ...according to Boris always !!!
: Dear Petro,
One problem only. All this is good, and it will work if we are dealing
with a reasonable person. In this case we are dealing with a childish
boy, who does not understand reason. If you can point a better way of
dealing with such an individual, I will be more than glad to follow it.
: >>
: >> I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
: >> not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
: >> see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
: Tell me Georgi, why exactly is it any of your concern if 'Borkata' sees the
: 'truth' so far as HE, himself, and HIS ethno-national identity is concerned?
: Who annointed you or anybody else 'Lord Protector and Truth-implanter' of the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you ask, I will answer. The question is not who, but what. This
what is something not so many peple have today. It is a diminishing
quality.
What I am talking about is the prode of what I am and what my ansestors
where. I will not let Bore distort it on international level. I will try
to make him see the truth of what he is doing, I will work to prevent it.
Can you acuse me of doing something wrong?
I do not have any pretentions against Bore. I have said this many times
and I will repeat it - HE CAN BE WHATHEVER HE WANTS TO BE. But I will not
let him chage the truth of what was. No way!
Georgi Karadjov
---------------------------------------------------------------------
karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: > So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
: > language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
: > day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
: > Georgi Karadjov
: >
: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: > : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: Dutch and German languages are that similar that both nations can understand each
: other's language.
: Why don't you try to persuade Dutch people that they do not know what they are
: and tell them they are German?
Dutch and Germans, as separate people have existed for quet some time.
They are part of the same original german tribes. I am not saing that
today there exist something like "Macedonia" nation - I am only stating
that it is 50 years old, and it was created for political reasons. The
lady in question was arguing that the people spoke to her in some laguage
different from the laguage they use every day. My point was simply that
she is mistaken, that she did not need a translator to speack to her
relaitves in thier contemporary language wich is Bulgarian. Any problems
here.
: What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
: Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
No I am not saing that. Today you can make the case that what you call
Macedonian are not Bulgarians, with some justification. My point is that
until 1913 such division was not pocible, and the slavic population of
Macedonia was indeed purely Bulgarian.
: That St. Naum and St.Kliment were Bulgarians only because they worked in Bulgaria
: for a certain period of time? This is a trivial example of a lack of common sense.
: Then you are American and I am Australian. Is that what you are trying to prove?
Not I am not American - I am Canadia, in the same way you are Ausy.
The point about St. Kliment and Naum is different- At the time they
were alive( now follow me carefy here and try to comprehend) THERE WERE NO
PEOPLE CALLED MACEDONIANS! NON, zilch, zero, non at all!! The people of
the Byzantium regarded the slavic population of Peonia( Yes, that what the
today's geographical area called Macedonia was know as then!) - the area
around Spoje, Ohrid, and such - as Bulgarians. You can check contemporary
Byzantium chronilers such as Scilitse to see that I am teling the truth.
Until you do so, please, spear me the meaningles arguments. So St.
Kliment and Naum can be called Bulgarians, not becaus ethey worked for
Kniaz Boris and his son Simeon, but because they came from areas populated
with Bulgarians.
: And why don't you Bulgarians make your own news group soc.culture.bulgaria or
: alt.news.bulgaria?
There is s.c.b - you can go and check it out. But this group is more
apropriate for discusions conserning the georgraphical region called
Macedonia and for all people from this region. don't you think?
: Is there any possibility that we get rid of you?
Probably, if you can shoot me, send me to the moon, or give me a milion.
In case of the last I will go on tour of the world and you will get rid of
me for a wile!
: Think! Use your brain! You can't make friends if you keep offending them.
You are acusing me of offending someone! Can we see your evidneces, Mr.
Persecutor?
Georgi Karadjov
----------------------------------------------------
: Come play Realms of Despair! http://www.game.org :
----------------------------------------------------
Svetlozar Petkov
Hello,
You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
both ways.
You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
determination. But the whole arguement started about whether N.
Vaptsarov was a Bulgarian or Macedonian poet. Lets not argue
semanthics- look at the language.
I have in front of me an actual copy of "Motorni Pesni", the
original 1938 edition. Old Bulgarian spelling but still clear.
Lets have a look. Not once does Vaptzarov say "chovekot"(for
instance).Throughout he uses "chovekat". Not once he uses "vo"
or "so". He says "vav" and "sas". Overwhelmingly he follows
literary Bulgarian. I don't think this fact was falsified in
the "dark basements of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences"-
elsewhere dialect forms are often used where the rhythm demands
it.Overall,though, the language is Bulgarian, not Macedonian.
As for Climent and Naum- do you have to try to create a
glorious past(eg. Alexander the Great)? Go to your local
library, look for any Western history books from 50 years ago
and try to find anything about a Macedonian nation.
Historically it's a relatively new concept. Not to say it's not
a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
Regards,
Zarko
P.S. About invading your newsgroup. Whoever started the whole
thing about Vaptsarov should have thought.
pOSSE!
On 2 Jul 1996 04:02:18 GMT, bd...@cornell.edu (Boris Docevski) wrote:
> In article
<Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
> gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
>
> > Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> > : Karadjov, do you know anything other than that childish
sarcasm?
> >
> > Yes, I do! I do know some of Vapsarov's relatives. They do
not think
> > like you. Do you know any of the poets relatives, so you can
speak with
> > such confidents?
>
>
> No, but I can READ what he wrote.
>
<THE USUAL CRAP!>
>
> I wasn't quite sure Boris but are you sane ? , seriously I'm
beginning to think that you are mentally unstable.
Toni Stojanovski
In article <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
> Hello,
>
>
> You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
> both ways.
>
> You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
> If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else but
self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some additional rights?
> determination. But the whole arguement started about whether N.
> Vaptsarov was a Bulgarian or Macedonian poet. Lets not argue
> semanthics- look at the language.
Let's not discuss anything.
Let you Bulgarians go to your own news group.
>
> I have in front of me an actual copy of "Motorni Pesni", the
> original 1938 edition. Old Bulgarian spelling but still clear.
> Lets have a look. Not once does Vaptzarov say "chovekot"(for
> instance).Throughout he uses "chovekat". Not once he uses "vo"
> or "so". He says "vav" and "sas". Overwhelmingly he follows
> literary Bulgarian. I don't think this fact was falsified in
> the "dark basements of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences"-
> elsewhere dialect forms are often used where the rhythm demands
> it.Overall,though, the language is Bulgarian, not Macedonian.
Hm, so you admit that Bulgarian and Macedonian are different languages?
If yes then I agree.
Are you a historian or hold a PhD about Vaptsarov?
Or maybe you have read couple of books about the subject and think of yourself as
being outstanding in the field?
>
> As for Climent and Naum- do you have to try to create a
> glorious past(eg. Alexander the Great)? Go to your local
> library, look for any Western history books from 50 years ago
> and try to find anything about a Macedonian nation.
Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and when
they emerged.
> Historically it's a relatively new concept. Not to say it's not
> a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
> But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
The only relevant and valid fact from the previous paragraph is that the
Macedonian natian is a reality. Everything else is just a personal standing.
Regards, Toni.
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
> Date: 7 Jul 96 04:49:05 UTC
> Lines: 95
> Xref: mel.dit.csiro.au alt.news.macedonia:17819 soc.culture.europe:66494
What a typical example of a good-mannered behavior.
>
> First of all the memories of my ancestors, many of whom have been mmbers
> of VMRO compelsme "to work at it" Second - I am from Macedonia, like it
> or not
You are from the part of macedonia which is occupied by Bulgaria, and of course I
do not like it.
> - not from RoM but from Macedonia, and most of my relatives are from
> there. If you can not see the difference between being from RoM and
> Macedonia - to bat for you. It is not called a.n.RoM. isn't it?
All your posts to anm are nothing else but rubish talking about the bulgarian
nature of Macedonia, Ilinden uprising, all macedonian poets, all saints etc.
Senseless rubish not deserving any comment.
Zosto ednostavno ne otides na csb kade si verojatno dobredojden i kade pripagas?
>
>
> : Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
> : someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
>
> My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
> Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
> ethnicity Bulgarian,
It's not my fault.
> by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
> that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
> Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
> one. She may leave you!
Ha-ha-ha. Umrela cigankata sto te falela, a?
>
> And not, I am not St. Ivan. And I did not change the name of the young
> and childsih individual in question. See - Toni, Tonche - if you are
> "macedonian" as you clime you will be able to see the difference. In the
> same facion -Boris - Borka, Borko, Borche,Bore, Borischo and so on. You
> can chose one!
Yes, I can choose and not you.
>
> : Thirdly, you offend someone and gain support from another "good christian"
> : from Greece.
> : Is this why you call yourself a "good christian"?
>
> Hey Tonche, I did not offend any one. I just stated the truth, as any
> good christian is obligated to do! Aren't you?
About offending someone, read the first sentence of your reply.
>
>
> : >
> : > No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
> : > back to his sences !!!!
>
> : What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
> : By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
> : Look at the wars in this century.
> : It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
>
> I will not say friends - just sencible people schooling a young boy who
> does not behave as a civilaized person. And yes, a bucket of could ice is
> very cristian. After all no corprolar punishment, as prescribed by the
> Bible, is not involved in the upbringing of our young!
Sensible people???? You? Come on, be moderate.
>
>
> : You do not reserve regards,
> : Toni.
>
> So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
Si znaes, si znaes,
Toni.
Goce Naumoski
In article <4rmi1m$u...@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>, e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) writes:
|> In article <01bb6a36.e4631ea0$a6ff1ec6@vesna>, b...@ganet.net (Vesna Sarafov)
|> says...
|> >
|> >> Aha, a potential relative of Boris and Hristo Sarafov - the first
|> >> called a traitor and bugarash by people like Borkata, his smal brothers,
|> >> Hristo - consider to be one of the graetest bulgarian actors (the national
|> >> theater in Sofia bears his name). I hope that you know the joke about "Ke
|> >> go igra nash Riste tsarot?". If not I can tell it to you!
|> >
|> >Are you trying to say I am Bulgarian, also?
|>
|> Stupid question Number 1.
|> You couldn't deny that Boris Sarafov and almost all of the participants in
|> Iliden uprising were Bulgarians, and that's why you try to depart from the
|> subject.
|>
|> >> So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
|> >> language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
|> >> day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
|> >
|> >Very different. MAKEDONSKI :-)
|>
|> Following your logic, all bulgarians speak MAKEDONSKI. Are you trying to
|> say I am Makedonec, also?
Neither all Bulgarians speak Macedonian, nor you are a Macedonian. But there
are some Bulgarians (Bulgarian citizens and ethnic Bulgarians) who DO speak
Macedonian. This does not imply that "all bulgarians speak MAKEDONSKI" neither
does it imply you are a Macedonian [neither ethnic nor a citizen of RoM].
This argument about the language is coming around every few weeks. Let's try
to solve it (again :-)
There is no translator needed between a Serb and a Croat, between a Czech and
a Slovak, between a Norwegian and a Swedish, and so on and so forth. The
language does NOT determine ones ethnicity.
Second, although your anecstors are Bulgars-Tatars, you have not inherited
their language. Your language is based on the old Macedonian language
(spoken around Solun-Thessaloniki) mostly referred as Old Slavic or
Church Slavic and has only some small "remains" of the
proto-Bulgar language, as are other (now known) Slavic languages: Macedonian,
Serbian, Slovenian. Polish, Russian, etc. etc.
It is no wonder that all these languages are similar.
However, being lucky to create your state some decenia before the creation
of the Macedonian state, you have been in state to established the literary
Bulgarian (which again has almost nothing to do with the proto-Bulgarian
language) before the literary Macedonian has been established. This is a fact,
but it does not mean Macedonian is derived from (what you call) Bulgarian, and
has nothing to do with the language of your ancestors. It is actaully the
other way around.
|>
|> >> And how do you know that what these people - the Vapsarovs, spoke a
|> >> language different, from the one they speak today?
|> >
|> >Do you know?
|>
|> Stupid question Number 2.
|> Look at the reprint of the Vapcarovs poems, published some 10 years ago,
|> and containing photocopies of his original manuscripts. The language is
|> Bulgarian, the orthography is the pre-WWII bulgarian one and contains
|> the letter:
|> ooo
|> o
|> ooooo
|> o o
|> ooooo , the letter which your teachers like Blazhe Konevski and
|> similar bastards hated so much and excluded from the makedonski alphabet.
|> And it is one of the reasons why your makedonski language is so ridiculous.
******************************************
Very nice of you, thank you for the nice words about our language.
You must be having some complex, I mean you cannot swallow the fact
that your modern bulgarian has nothing to do with the proto-Bulgarian.
Anyway, why bother to post here about our language, why care? I do not
care about your language, so why should you?
|> You must write, for example,
|>
|> oooo oooo oooo o o o o
|> o o o o o oo o o
|> o oooo oooo o o o ooooo
|> o o o o oo o o o
|> oooo o oooo o o o o , but pronounce
|>
|> oooo ooo oooo oooo o o o o
|> o o o o o o oo o o
|> o oooo oooo oooo o o o ooooo
|> o o o o o o oo o o o
|> oooo oooo o oooo o o o o.
According to your logic, this means that also Serbian, Croatian,
Slovenian (and some others) must be "so ridiculous", because they
also write "Srbin" and pronounce "S6rbin", right?
Is this maybe a common bulgarian logic ;^
[snip]
|> > You see what is going
|> >on now with those Macedonians in Bulgaria trying to perceive themselves as
|> >Macedonians?
|>
|> What is going with these guys besides the money they get from abroad ?
|> Some years ago these people relied on Belgrade not on Skopie. They,
|> contrary to the aims of VMRO-SMD, didn't even speak about free and
|> independent macedonian republic.In other words, they are servian servants.
Free and independent macedonian republic BUT without Macedonians. The same
way the vrhovists did, or the servants of "uncle Vanche", only they were
for autonomous Macedonia.
Have you ever asked yourself, if those people are "servian servants"
why then they do not advocate there are no Macedonians but Serbs - instead
the ysay we are Macedonians, why they do not advocate joining of Macedonia
to Serbia - instead they want Macedonia to be free and independt and ask for
Authonomy of Pirin Macedonia, not separation and joining to Serbia, etc. etc.
These are, Mr. Karloukovski, very simple and for you very difficult questions.
|>
|> >> Happy now?
|> >
|> >Of course not. Again you are trying to convince me, my relatives are
|> >Bulgarians, which means I am Bulgarian, too?
|>
|> Ask your relatives, try to read some books published outside Yugoslavia
|> and you'll understand who are you. One cannot choose his/her parents and
|> alter their national feelings.
Well, you may try to compare the possibilities to access some foreign
literatur we have had before 1990 and the Bulgarians. Maybe you will
learn something, but watch out, it could be different from what they
serve in BKoL :-)
|>
|> Regards,
|> Vassil Karloukovski.
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 7 Jul 96 04:49:05 UTC
|> Lines: 95
|>
|> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
|>
[snip old references]
|> : > > I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
|> : > > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
|> : > > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
|>
|> : First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
|> : Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
|>
|> Tonche, le Tonche, moche ubavo, shto si se Tonche u konski gaz zavrelo?
Is this some modern Bulgarian poetry, Mr. Karadjov :-) representing the
bulgarian culture ;-)
|>
|> First of all the memories of my ancestors, many of whom have been mmbers
|> of VMRO compelsme "to work at it" Second - I am from Macedonia, like it
|> or not- not from RoM but from Macedonia, and most of my relatives are from
|> there. If you can not see the difference between being from RoM and
|> Macedonia - to bat for you. It is not called a.n.RoM. isn't it?
|>
|>
|> : Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
|> : someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
|>
|> My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
|> Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
|> ethnicity Bulgarian, by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
********************
|> that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
|> Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
|> one. She may leave you!
Mr. Karadjov, thank you very much that you finally stated who you are,
no more Macedonian Bulgarian, or Bulgarian from Macedonia, or ...,
but simply a BULGARIAN, ethnic Bulgarian, and (I assume) a citizen of
Bulgaria. As such you have nothing to do with Macedonians and Macedonia
(except that according to your knowledge your 4 generation ancestors
were Bulgarians and lived in the ethno-historical teritory of Macedonia).
With other words, you have to do with Macedonia the same way memebers of
other ethnic groups living there have to do. I hope you will also
throw away your last mask, and show us your real face.
BTW, does the fact that you are cristen in a church (eastern orthodox)
make you a kind of supeiror person? Many millions of people are also
christend by the eastern-orthodox but I do not think thay think they
are superior :-)
[snip]
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Internet Direct. Have you heard about our :
|> : (416)233-2999, 1000 lines Do-It-Yourself Webserver? :
|> : T3 bandwidth, 9600-33,600bps+ISDN http://web.idirect.com :
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: > <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
: > X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: > Date: 7 Jul 96 04:49:05 UTC
: > Lines: 95
: >
: > Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: >
: > : In article <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk>, Petros Liapis <hd...@westminster.ac.uk> writes:
: > : > <31DD0EF7...@westminster.ac.uk> <Edina1996Jul...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>
: > : > NNTP-Posting-Host: ux28.wmin.ac.uk
: > : > Mime-Version: 1.0
: > : > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
: > : > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: > : > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m)
: > : > Xref: mel.dit.csiro.au alt.news.macedonia:17788 soc.culture.europe:66400
: > : >
: > : > karadjov wrote:
: > : > >
: > : > > Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > > : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
: > : > > : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
: > : >
: > : > > : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
: > : > > : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
: > : > > : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: > : >
: > : > > : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
: > : > > : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
: > : > > : ...according to Boris always !!!
: > : > >
: >
: > : > > I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
: > : > > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
: > : > > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
: >
: > : First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
: > : Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
: >
: > Tonche, le Tonche, moche ubavo, shto si se Tonche u konski gaz zavrelo?
: What a typical example of a good-mannered behavior.
Exacto mundo! I like you so much, so I do not want to lie to you.
: >
: > First of all the memories of my ancestors, many of whom have been mmbers
: > of VMRO compelsme "to work at it" Second - I am from Macedonia, like it
: > or not
: You are from the part of macedonia which is occupied by Bulgaria, and of course I
: do not like it.
What I am supposed not to like - being from Pirin Macedonia, or being
from the only part where the original history of Macedonia was not
distorted, and wich was free since 1912?
: > - not from RoM but from Macedonia, and most of my relatives are from
: > there. If you can not see the difference between being from RoM and
: > Macedonia - to bat for you. It is not called a.n.RoM. isn't it?
: All your posts to anm are nothing else but rubish talking about the bulgarian
: nature of Macedonia, Ilinden uprising, all macedonian poets, all saints etc.
: Senseless rubish not deserving any comment.
Now, here we can see how limited your culture is. The history of one
place, its nature, its roots, its heros, poets, saints, culture,
traditions, and all such things are the most important things one must
know about that palce. To discused these things is to become more aware
of what we are, regardless of personal belives. To consider such things
rubish is a sign of limited culture and intelect.
: Zosto ednostavno ne otides na csb kade si verojatno dobredojden i kade pripagas?
I am regular therre- go and check!
: >
: >
: > : Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
: > : someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
: >
: > My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
: > Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
: > ethnicity Bulgarian,
: It's not my fault.
What is not your fault?
: > by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
: > that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
: > Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
: > one. She may leave you!
: Ha-ha-ha. Umrela cigankata sto te falela, a?
Mozhe i da, e pa mozhe i da ne e!
: >
: > And not, I am not St. Ivan. And I did not change the name of the young
: > and childsih individual in question. See - Toni, Tonche - if you are
: > "macedonian" as you clime you will be able to see the difference. In the
: > same facion -Boris - Borka, Borko, Borche,Bore, Borischo and so on. You
: > can chose one!
: Yes, I can choose and not you.
And why not me? How gives this privilage? Can you give me his/her
phone number, so I can give that person/entity a call?
: >
: > : Thirdly, you offend someone and gain support from another "good christian"
: > : from Greece.
: > : Is this why you call yourself a "good christian"?
: >
: > Hey Tonche, I did not offend any one. I just stated the truth, as any
: > good christian is obligated to do! Aren't you?
: About offending someone, read the first sentence of your reply.
Teling the truth is not offending, even if you wish it was.
: >
: >
: > : >
: > : > No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
: > : > back to his sences !!!!
: >
: > : What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
: > : By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
: > : Look at the wars in this century.
: > : It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
: >
: > I will not say friends - just sencible people schooling a young boy who
: > does not behave as a civilaized person. And yes, a bucket of could ice is
: > very cristian. After all no corprolar punishment, as prescribed by the
: > Bible, is not involved in the upbringing of our young!
: Sensible people???? You? Come on, be moderate.
Hey, I am the most moderate person you can find. Just ask around!
: >
: >
: > : You do not reserve regards,
: > : Toni.
: >
: > So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
: No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
: mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
: Si znaes, si znaes,
: Toni.
E dobro kat si znaes!
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 7 Jul 96 05:35:32 UTC
|> Lines: 76
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22463 soc.culture.europe:75104
|>
|> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
|> : In article <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> : > language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
|> : > day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
|> : > Georgi Karadjov
|> : >
|> : > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : > : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
|> : > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|>
|> : Dutch and German languages are that similar that both nations can understand each
|> : other's language.
|> : Why don't you try to persuade Dutch people that they do not know what they are
|> : and tell them they are German?
|>
|> Dutch and Germans, as separate people have existed for quet some time.
|> They are part of the same original german tribes. I am not saing that
|> today there exist something like "Macedonia" nation - I am only stating
|> that it is 50 years old, and it was created for political reasons. The
Neither is the Macedonian nation 50 years old, nor it was created for
political reasons. However, the first semi-independent (semi-free, etc.)
Macedonian state existed for 47 years. The free and independent Macedonian
state is (almost) 5 years old. These are the facts, Mr. Karadjov.
Although Germans and Dutch have common ancestors (germanic tribes),
Bulgarians and Macedonians do NOT have. There has never been in the past
massive mix between Bulgarians and Macedonians.
|> lady in question was arguing that the people spoke to her in some laguage
|> different from the laguage they use every day. My point was simply that
|> she is mistaken, that she did not need a translator to speack to her
|> relaitves in thier contemporary language wich is Bulgarian. Any problems
|> here.
|>
|> : What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
|> : Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
|>
|> No I am not saing that. Today you can make the case that what you call
|> Macedonian are not Bulgarians, with some justification. My point is that
|> until 1913 such division was not pocible, and the slavic population of
|> Macedonia was indeed purely Bulgarian.
Neither now, nor in 1913, nor before 1913. As I stated before, Macedonians
have never massively intermixed with Bulgarians (or for that matter Slavs
with Bulgar-Tatars).
|>
|>
|> : That St. Naum and St.Kliment were Bulgarians only because they worked in Bulgaria
|> : for a certain period of time? This is a trivial example of a lack of common sense.
|> : Then you are American and I am Australian. Is that what you are trying to prove?
|>
|> Not I am not American - I am Canadia, in the same way you are Ausy.
|>
|> The point about St. Kliment and Naum is different- At the time they
|> were alive( now follow me carefy here and try to comprehend) THERE WERE NO
|> PEOPLE CALLED MACEDONIANS! NON, zilch, zero, non at all!! The people of
|> the Byzantium regarded the slavic population of Peonia( Yes, that what the
|> today's geographical area called Macedonia was know as then!) - the area
|> around Spoje, Ohrid, and such - as Bulgarians. You can check contemporary
|> Byzantium chronilers such as Scilitse to see that I am teling the truth.
|> Until you do so, please, spear me the meaningles arguments. So St.
|> Kliment and Naum can be called Bulgarians, not becaus ethey worked for
|> Kniaz Boris and his son Simeon, but because they came from areas populated
|> with Bulgarians.
The Slavic tribe called Smoljani has always been in war with the Bulgar-Tataric
tribes. When the later become christians, they have accepted the language
of the former and have abandoned their natiave one.
[snip]
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ----------------------------------------------------
|> : Come play Realms of Despair! http://www.game.org :
|> ----------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 8 Jul 96 06:37:38 UTC
|> Lines: 172
[snip references]
|> : > So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
|>
|> : No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
|> : mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
|>
|> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
|> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
|> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
************* *********************
I have never doubted :-))
|>
|> : Si znaes, si znaes,
|> : Toni.
|> E dobro kat si znaes!
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Visit our "Do-It-Yourself!" Website http://web.idirect.com :
|> : Easy, Fun & Affordable Webspace rental for less than $10 per month :
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
: > Hello,
: >
: >
: > You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
: > both ways.
: >
: > You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
: > If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
: And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else but
: self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some additional rights?
Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
: > determination. But the whole arguement started about whether N.
: > Vaptsarov was a Bulgarian or Macedonian poet. Lets not argue
: > semanthics- look at the language.
: Let's not discuss anything.
: Let you Bulgarians go to your own news group.
When you can not say enything meaningfull, or your argument does not
hold water, your natural respons is to cry "Let's not discuss anything".
How memorable and reveling!
: >
: > I have in front of me an actual copy of "Motorni Pesni", the
: > original 1938 edition. Old Bulgarian spelling but still clear.
: > Lets have a look. Not once does Vaptzarov say "chovekot"(for
: > instance).Throughout he uses "chovekat". Not once he uses "vo"
: > or "so". He says "vav" and "sas". Overwhelmingly he follows
: > literary Bulgarian. I don't think this fact was falsified in
: > the "dark basements of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences"-
: > elsewhere dialect forms are often used where the rhythm demands
: > it.Overall,though, the language is Bulgarian, not Macedonian.
: Hm, so you admit that Bulgarian and Macedonian are different languages?
: If yes then I agree.
The language you call "Macedonian", the language created by Blazhe
Konevski, the language Vaptsarov did NOT use, is indeed different from
Bulgarian. Hapy now?
: Are you a historian or hold a PhD about Vaptsarov?
: Or maybe you have read couple of books about the subject and think of yourself as
: being outstanding in the field?
Mybe the gentleman in question has read more books than you. Even if
the number of books is relatively small, it makes him better qualified
than you to speack on the subject, simply because it is obvious that you
have not read any!
And one more thing. To have a original of "Motorni Pesni" indicates a
depth on the matter, you can only dream of achieving.
: >
: > As for Climent and Naum- do you have to try to create a
: > glorious past(eg. Alexander the Great)? Go to your local
: > library, look for any Western history books from 50 years ago
: > and try to find anything about a Macedonian nation.
: Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
: No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and when
: they emerged.
No matter when the conspt of nations emerged, you can not chage the fact
that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speack
for himselfe. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
are well known.
: > Historically it's a relatively new concept. Not to say it's not
: > a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
: > But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
: The only relevant and valid fact from the previous paragraph is that the
: Macedonian natian is a reality. Everything else is just a personal standing.
Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
front some questions, the answers of which are not very plesant to some
people.
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> : In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
>
> The above deleted to save space. For references, look at prvious
> postings in this thread.
>
> : > : Who cares about that? You are missing the point.
> : >
> : > No I am not! I am just having fun!
>
> : I deeply apologize I didn't understand your fun.
>
> No bary is perfect!
At least YOU are not perfect. First step - learn the spelling.
> : Well, either you are stupid or behave like a stupid one.
> : Of course there are words in the Petrich or Strumica or Bitola or Lerin or Kukus
> : dialect I do not understand.
> : That's called reachness and diversity of the languages. It is a common thing with
> : all other languages.
>
>
> You called the above not Macedonain. It against emphisise my point that
> the language you speack - the thing called "Litteray Macedonian" was
> created in order to differentiate the "official" language as far as
> posible from the common dialects spocken in Macedonia. You as
> a"Macedonain" should be able to recognize any dialect spocken in
> Macedonia, and except it as a form of "Macedonian" not call it something
> else.
Every literary language is a matter of standard.
A trivial example. No one in Italia speaks literary Italian. I repeat, NO ONE.
Dialects from Rome, Milano and Sicilia are that different that people from
these areas can not understand each other at all unless they speak literary
Italian.
Read about the dialects in India, China or about Croatia which might be
closer to you.
> : If it is not case with Bulgarian then it is as natural as Esperanto.
> : It is a great compliment when you Bulgarians call my language Serbian, and when
> : Serbian people call my language Bulgarian.
> : A great evidence that I speak a pure Macedonian.
> :
>
> The language you speack is what Blazhe Konevski envisioned as
> "Macerdonian" - as far away from the original dialects and as close as
> posssible to Serbian. Not a grate vision to brag about, ehy?
I just can't resist to call you what you are. A stuborn idiot!!
What I speak is a mixture of Skopje and Tetovo dialect. My parents
were born there. Whe I write jokes I use the same dialect.
I speak the same way my grandparents used to speak.
Blaze Koneski has nothing to do with my spoken language.
When I write I use literary Macedonian language (to the best of my knowlegde)
and I assure you that it is very close to the way I speak in the streets.
> : > : > My estiamte is that the jockes, judging by the language and the
> : > : > thematics, are originaly from Serbia.
> : >
> : > : Judging by the language? Are you telling me I am serbian?
> : >
> : > Now, I am not telling you that. I am just speculating where the jocke
> : > came from, and that you that you are probably a typical Yugo creation,
> : > which sucks up Yugo culture with metric tons.
>
> : This is typical communist behavior. When no other arguments exist then label your
> : enemy with dirty names. And, of course, do not forget to say it in a 'funny'
> : manner.
>
> I am not labaling anyone- I just speculate. You are telling jockes,
> which originated in Yugoslavia, make fun of ehtnic people from Ygoslavia,
> exhibit belives commonly held in Yugoslavia( about the people from Monte
> Negro), and other such Yugosalvian characteristcs. One of the obvious
> conclusions is that we are dealing with a product of Yugoslavia here. Can
> you prove me wrong?
Next time I will write a joke about Bulgarian people.
Your "obvious conclusion" will be that I am a product of Bulgaria.
Next time try to think before you draw conclusions.
Toni.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 8 Jul 96 07:05:21 UTC
|> Lines: 94
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22478 soc.culture.europe:75150
|>
|> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
|>
|> : In article <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
|> : > Hello,
|> : >
|> : >
|> : > You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
|> : > both ways.
|> : >
|> : > You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
|> : > If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
|>
|> : And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else but
|> : self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some additional rights?
|>
|> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
|> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
century only. Thank you.
[snip]
|> : Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
|> : No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and when
|> : they emerged.
|>
|> No matter when the conspt of nations emerged, you can not chage the fact
|> that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
|> creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speack
|> for himselfe. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
|> archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
|> are well known.
The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
it became true only 5 years ago.
If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
"the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
[snip]
|>
|> : > Historically it's a relatively new concept. Not to say it's not
|> : > a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
|> : > But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
|>
|> : The only relevant and valid fact from the previous paragraph is that the
|> : Macedonian natian is a reality. Everything else is just a personal standing.
|>
|> Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
|> falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
***************
|> front some questions, the answers of which are not very plesant to some
|> people.
This and similar statements are nothing new for us, neither they were for
our ancestors. Above all, you are experts in this area ;-)
|>
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Petros Liapis
Toni Stojanovski wrote:
> > karadjov wrote:
> > > Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
> > > (PL) : Georgi, Georgi !!!!.... what is this !!!!... are you using logic against Boris!!!
> > > : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian kids!!
> > > : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
> > > : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
> > > : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
> > > : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
> > > : ...according to Boris always !!!
> > > (Karadjov) I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
> > > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
> > > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
>
> First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
> Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
First of all, why you have a problem with people "working at it"??!!!
Let me remind you that this is an open newsgroup and everybody has a say !!!
If you want your privacy, and nobody chalenging your naivity, go back to bit.listserv.makedon
and live in illusions !!!!!!!
> Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
> someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
Commoooonnnn Antoni !!!! What kind of attitude it that !!!! I can't see any difference
between Antoni and Toni !!!!... it is the same name !!!!
> Thirdly, you offend someone and gain support from another "good christian" from Greece.
> Is this why you call yourself a "good christian"?
No !!! I believe he calls himself a good Christian because no matter how stupid and ilogical
Borkate is..... Georgi still believes that one day Borkata may come to his senses !!!!
... I am not such a good Christian you know,,,,
> > No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
> > back to his sences !!!!
>
> What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
> By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
> Look at the wars in this century.
> It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
It is a good advice !!!...... I believe you need one too!!!!!!
I don't believe it is funny to see Greeks and Bulgarians co-operate !!! To the contrary, out
of a such co-operation the future of the Balkans can be much different from the past (the
wars that you believe in that is !!!!)
> You do not reserve regards,
Neither you do Antoni !!!
Petros Liapis
> Toni.
Petros Liapis
karadjov wrote:
>
> Stavros N. Karageorgis (kara...@ucla.edu) wrote:
> : In article <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> Petros Liapis <hd...@westminster.ac.uk> writes:
>
> : >Boris!!!
> : >> : Do you really want Boris to believe that Bulgarian parents have...Bulgarian
> : >kids!!
>
> : >> : Don't you know that Bulgarian parents make ...... "macedonian" kids !!!!!
> : >> : .... and Greeks made...... "macedonian" history !!!!
> : >> : ....therefore Boris exists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> : >> : This is the logic that Boris believes in !!
> : >> : The logic that says 1+1=2 has been replace with 1+1= ...macedonian !!!!!
> : >> : ...according to Boris always !!!
>
>
> : Who the heck are you to determine the ethno-national identity of people living
> : today, on the basis of the imputed or revealed ethno-national identity of
> : their ancestors or their relatives? You've got it all wrong.
X-cuse meeeeee !!!!!!!!! Who the heck are YOU Stavro !!!... to tell me NOT to judge the
national identity of the people according to the national identity of their parents !!! If
your parents are Greeks you are Greek, if your parents are Bulgarians you are Bulgarian, if
your parents are Turks you are Turk.
.... Now, if your parents are Bulgarians (for example) and you don't FEEL Bulgarian, that is
a whole different game !!!!!!.... Yet the FACT that you are comming from Bulgarian parents
and family still remains and you can not dispute it !!!!!
> : The problem with
> : the nationalist 'Macedonians' is the OPPOSITE of what you insist it is.
> : It works like this; Since I am 'Macedonian' therefore both my parents, and
> : their parents, and their parents, and so on MUST have also been (to wit, felt
> : themselves to be) 'Macedonian'.
.....!!!!!!??????......!!!!!!!.... Well... I say the opposite, which happened to be the
other side of the same coin !!!!!!!!!!!... I don't understand your point,as I say we are
tolking about the two sides of the same coin ........
> : You seem to be under the assumption that one's
> : ethno-national identity is some kind of innate, primordial quality, the
> : sum-total of the genes and self-identification of one's ancestors. Well, it is
> : not. Both you and other nationalists of all 'varieties' should FINALLY figure
> : it out, and get with the 'program'.
I say PARENTS not ancestors !!!... If you consider your parents... your ancestors...then
that is the ultimate "generation gap" that I have hear of !!!!!
Yet, I understand your point and I agree with it.... when it comes to ancestors and NOT to
parents. You can not say that a third or forth generation american (for example) who's
ancestors came from Germany .... is German !!! I absolutelly agree with it !!!
....Yet, what can you do when that person claims that Bahh or Bethoven were not of German
origin ...but of American just to justify his/her existance !!!!
...and now something personal since you called me a "nationalist" with the bad meaning of
the world (and you know what I mean!!). I dare and challenge you to find postings of mine
saying "H Konstandinoupoli einai dikia mas", "stin kikkini milia kai akkoma parapera", "Oloi
oi tourkoi einao moggoloi", "thanatos stous tourkous" etc. etc.
I am sure you will not find any !!!! Therefore I am expecting an APOLOGY from you !!!!
> : If Boris Docevski feels himself to be ethno-nationally a 'Macedonian' nothing
> : you say about him or his ancestors will do anything. Especially, if you say it
> : the way and others do. His rationale for feeling that way is IRRELEVANT. It
> : may very well (as I think, myself) be factually erroneous. So what? The
> : problem with Boris and others like him is that they seem to expect that if one
> : accepts that he and other are who they say they are, one has PERFORCE to
> : accept their rationale, as well as their entire national mythology. This is
> : sheer obfuscation, bad logic, and bad strategy, to boot.
Very nice handling of the English language !!! I am jealous !!!!
Forgive me, but I will not be so "elaborate" in my analysis.... so everybody can understand
me...
I don't give a shit of what Boris or Borka believes he is !!!!!
I have no elusions that I can make him change !!!!
I don't care if he is going through a national and soul search !!!!!
What I care about, is that he and his artificial "nation" are claiming my history and land
and I will do everyrthing to discredit his false claims.
I will do this not for him or his kind (since they are a lost cause !!!) but for the
foreigners on the net who became victims to his lies and false claims. I am after them not
after Boris!!.... A long as other people see that there is a chalenge on what Boris and
FYROM is all about, that is enough for me !!!!
> : You and Georgi should stick NOT to what Boris is, since this is entirely his
> : business and entirely his own 'baby', but to debunking with credible evidence
> : the claims he makes, and the ethno-national identities he imputes to others,
> : past and present. If Boris and others claim that the Ancient Macedonians are
> : the ancestors of the modern ethno-national 'Macedonians' this does not mean
> : that because his statement is entirely bogus, he thereby ceases BEING what he
> : self-identifies as, to wit a 'Macedonian' ethno-nationally.
Absolutelly !!! Credible evidence are the most important factor in this "net war"
...... but please allow us some fun too !!!!!!
..................... ............... .................
> : Tell me Georgi, why exactly is it any of your concern if 'Borkata' sees the
> : 'truth' so far as HE, himself, and HIS ethno-national identity is concerned?
> : Who annointed you or anybody else 'Lord Protector and Truth-implanter' of the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> If you ask, I will answer. The question is not who, but what. This
> what is something not so many peple have today. It is a diminishing
> quality.
>
> What I am talking about is the prode of what I am and what my ansestors
> where. I will not let Bore distort it on international level. I will try
> to make him see the truth of what he is doing, I will work to prevent it.
> Can you acuse me of doing something wrong?
This is exactlly my point too Stavro !!!!!!!!! I will not let Boris (or Borka) to distort
and claim MY history as his on international level !!!!
This is the target to chalge what he says not to make him change his believes !!!!!
> I do not have any pretentions against Bore. I have said this many times
> and I will repeat it - HE CAN BE WHATHEVER HE WANTS TO BE. But I will not
> let him chage the truth of what was. No way!
I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Petros Liapis
> Georgi Karadjov
Boris Docevski
No, he was Macedonian. His poems clearly state that.
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia
http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/faq
http://www.lebisol.com
Boris Docevski
No, he was a Macedonian.
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia (Virtual Macedonia)
http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/faq (Macedonia FAQ)
http://www.lebisol.com (Leb i Sol)
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Borislav Stojanov <bks...@mail.med.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>In article, "Vesna Sarafov" <b...@ganet.net> wrote:
...
>>The governments of the two countries (today Bulgaria and Greece) made them
>>use their languages as official. But when they speak to me, they speak
>>MACEDONIAN.
>
>And what's the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian? I always
>talked to my grand parents, refugees from Macedonia, in one language -
>Bulgarian. The aberration, an example of which you are, is created by
>people who cheaply sold themselves to the Serbs. And something else;
>because in Greece the Macedonian minority is forbiden to use its native
>tongue dosn't mean that the refugees from Macedonia and Thrace in Bulgaria
>were made to speak some "other" language, nice try, but it doesn't work.
>I asked many times before and have never received an answer, probably you
>may answer me: how many refugees from what was Macedonia who ended up in
>Bulgaria did go to school to study "the foreign to them" Bulgarian
>language? Let me give you my answer that I got after talking to thousands
>of refugees, including my grand parents: ZERO. If you can't prove when and
>how those refugees, including your relatives in Pirin Macedonia, "learned"
>to speak Bulgarian you owe to shut up and read some REAL history books.
Good sophisms.
So, both Stojanov and Sarafov were born and/or taught in their first
5 years of life, (that is, before the official brainwashing take place,
including local TV) from their parents with extensive and complete know-
ledge of all the terms and symbols in: Mathematics, Medicine, Computer
Science, Mechanical Engineering, Theological, Philosophical, Earth
Sciences, Bureacratic, Legal, and why not, Literary! Great learning
abilities, guys, you have. And your parents are superhumans!
Let me tell you the following: Why a peasnt with a vocabulary of
no more than 2,000 words to learn the official language of Bulgaria,
with its 20,000+ words, and not the Greek one? Any "inherent" reason
to choose one over the other? In the one case you will absorbe words
created "in speed" by "official bureaucrats" trying desperately to
build a "language for the state", and in the other case they will
learn words "born naturally" by the original inventors of the con-
cepts/terms. (Well, I do not make a complete separation of one
language from the other; it is only quantitative).
Gregory
PS: Nobody forbids any home-language in Greece (with the exception
of the 1936-1940 years, but even those were not strict). Simply,
there is no state promotion of imported artificial (that is,
"bureaucracy and its choices") foreign languages. Quite clear.
If in a core of 2,000 home-words, you add a superstructure of
20,000 words, not much of the original words will count.
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>In article Borislav Stojanov <bks...@mail.med.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>>In article, "Vesna Sarafov" <b...@ganet.net> wrote:
>...
>>>The governments of the two countries (today Bulgaria and Greece) made them
>>>use their languages as official. But when they speak to me, they speak
>>>MACEDONIAN.
>>
>>And what's the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian? I always
>>talked to my grand parents, refugees from Macedonia, in one language -
>>Bulgarian.
>Good sophisms.
>
>So, both Stojanov and Sarafov were born and/or taught in their first
>5 years of life, (that is, before the official brainwashing take place,
>including local TV) from their parents with extensive and complete know-
>ledge of all the terms and symbols in: Mathematics, Medicine, Computer
>Science, Mechanical Engineering, Theological, Philosophical, Earth
>Sciences, Bureacratic, Legal, and why not, Literary! Great learning
>abilities, guys, you have. And your parents are superhumans!
>PS: Nobody forbids any home-language in Greece (with the exception
> of the 1936-1940 years, but even those were not strict). Simply,
> there is no state promotion of imported artificial (that is,
> "bureaucracy and its choices") foreign languages. Quite clear.
> If in a core of 2,000 home-words, you add a superstructure of
> 20,000 words, not much of the original words will count.
As a living example, I have my 4.5 daughter's experience. Living in
the US, I always talk to her about simple things in Greek. Yet, when
she makes a more sophisticated question to me, I can't afford to com-
promise her intellectual development by answering in gibberish language
to her. I have to use words which she slightly understands, (since they
are not very often used in every day life), that is TV English, and
not a river of completely unknown to her so far Greek equivalents.
Already, in this early age, sophisticated thinking is dependent on
the official language of the environment, and not on "home language".
Imagine the case of a completely illiterate and peasant family, as
it was the case of all those "Bulgarian or Macedonians" that you are
talking about. Only bullets could change the "dominant in sophisti-
cation linguistic environment".
And my daughter, as many other kids in her age that I know who come
from fresh US immigrants (any country you can imagine), prefer to
talk in English. She is asked in Greek, and she responds in English.
Another one is asked in Urdu, and again aswers back in English.
So, Mr. and Mr. brainwashed, matters are not as your corresponding
states and/or allegiances have taught you to think about.
Gregory
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za> <4rpk4l$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
> Date: 8 Jul 96 07:05:21 UTC
> Lines: 94
>
> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
>
> : In article <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
> : > Hello,
> : >
> : >
> : > You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
> : > both ways.
> : >
> : > You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
> : > If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
>
> : And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else but
> : self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some additional rights?
>
> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
>
> : No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and when
> : they emerged.
>
> No matter when the conspt of nations emerged, you can not chage the fact
> that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
> creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speack
> for himselfe. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
> archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
> are well known.
>
> : > a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
> : > But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
>
> : The only relevant and valid fact from the previous paragraph is that the
> : Macedonian natian is a reality. Everything else is just a personal standing.
>
> Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
> falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
> people.
>
>
Toni Stojanovski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
Ma nemoj! Da ne ste mozebi i vie "bozja" nacija kako i Srbite?
> When you can not say enything meaningfull, or your argument does not
> hold water, your natural respons is to cry "Let's not discuss anything".
> How memorable and reveling!
Sledniot pat procitaj sto e napisano, a ne sto sakas da procitas.
I barem malku razgledaj ja moznosta deka ponekogas i drugite se vo pravo,
i deka vistinata mozebi ne e ona sto tebe ti se pletka niz mozoceto.
[izbrisani besmislici]
Mislam deka si ti edno razmazeno detiste koe misli deka
sopstvenata golemina e proporcionalna na kolicinata na plukanjeto vrz drugite.
Za zal i nie gresime sto im pridavame tolku golemo znacenie na besmislicite koi
gi pisuvas.
Ako si tolku golem Bugarin sto majka baras vo Kanada?
Vrati se nazad vo Blgarija i odi cekaj vo red za leb.
Se razbira, na opaska.
Toni.
Toni Stojanovski
In article <31E10A2F...@westminster.ac.uk>, Petros Liapis <hd...@westminster.ac.uk> writes:
> Commoooonnnn Antoni !!!! What kind of attitude it that !!!! I can't see any difference
> between Antoni and Toni !!!!... it is the same name !!!!
Ova e samo edna od mnogute raboti koi ti ne mozes da gi vidis.
Simni go oglavot od glavata.
> ... I am not such a good Christian you know,,,,
Priznavas? Se nadevas deka polovina ke ti bide prosteno?
> > > No don't wait.... throw a backet with iced cold water at him !!! that will bring him
> > > back to his sences !!!!
> >
> > What a nice advise! Georgi, think about the christianity.
> > By the way, since when are Bulgarians and Greeks good friends?
> > Look at the wars in this century.
> > It's very funny to see Greeks and Bulgars supporting each other.
>
> It is a good advice !!!...... I believe you need one too!!!!!!
Kako znaes deka sovetot e dobar? Verojatno si go probal na sebe.
> I don't believe it is funny to see Greeks and Bulgarians co-operate !!! To the contrary, out
> of a such co-operation the future of the Balkans can be much different from the past (the
> wars that you believe in that is !!!!)
This is nothing else but wishfull thinking.
So Georgi ste si tamam. Raka pod raka skoknete od ista karpa.
Petros, dali imas problemi so tastaturata ili izmisluvas nova gramatika?
Niza od poveke izvicnici, tocki i prasalnici na nacin na koj ti go pravis toa
nema nikakvo znacenie.
Razumnosta i ubeditelnota na tvoite recenici mozes da ja zgolemis samo na drug
nacin.
Toni.
Gregory Dandulakis
And as a further indication to the political nature of all this
fuss, which has next to nothing relevance to uninitiated peoples
life, there is also a very recent "strange" event:
The Bulgarian foreign minister (Pirinski, I think) complainted to
the Greek foreign minister because lately there were published two
Greek-Pomak languages dictionaries. Why this fuss? And what is
the relevance with the "Bulgarian" or "Macedonian" nature of your
alleged ancestors "language"? Well, Pomak is usually described as
a Bulgarian language. There are several Greek-Bulgarian dictiona-
ries, so there shouldn't be normally any "problem". But, alas,
there _is_ a problem. In most probability Pomak is a language
with many Bulgarian, Arabic, Greek and Turkish words. Sufficiently
mixed that their existence might qualify it as a distinct language.
By having the Pomak language being expressed in the form of written
language, then the "obvious" relevance to the (official) Bulgarian
language loses its potential. To such a degree that Pomaks might
not make blindly the jump to the (official) Bulgarian version of
language sophistication, but instead to the (official) Greek version
of language sophistication. And there you go. People who invaded
the Balkans in various and _distinct_ waves of Slavic tribes, can
indeed identify themselves today with any of the available major
local cultures. And if they were once forcibly unified by this
or that ruler for a short time, does not make them any less prone
to have their own _personal_ choices of allegiance today.
BTW, the majority of the Pomaks are Muslims. So, their allegiance to
Turkey might have been thought automatic. Well, in fact, it is not.
Gregory
PS: The Pomaks of Greece were offered thus far a publicly funded
ability to choose between educating themselves in Greek or
Turkish language. Privately they could have chosen to study
Bulgarian. Very recently were also accepted to the ranks of
officers in the Greek army.
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 7 Jul 96 04:49:05 UTC
: |> Lines: 95
: |>
: |> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: |>
: [snip old references]
: |> : > > I know, I know, how futile it all seams. But as a good christian I can
: |> : > > not give up hope. Mybe one day there will be a miracle and Borkata will
: |> : > > see the truth. I can only hope and work at it.
: |>
: |> : First of all, who asked you to "work at it"?
: |> : Let me remind you that this is a macedonian group and you do not belong to it.
: |>
: |> Tonche, le Tonche, moche ubavo, shto si se Tonche u konski gaz zavrelo?
:
: Is this some modern Bulgarian poetry, Mr. Karadjov :-) representing the
: bulgarian culture ;-)
Now, it is not poetry. It is down to earth, everyday, Balkan way of
expresing something.
: |>
: |> First of all the memories of my ancestors, many of whom have been mmbers
: |> of VMRO compelsme "to work at it" Second - I am from Macedonia, like it
: |> or not- not from RoM but from Macedonia, and most of my relatives are from
: |> there. If you can not see the difference between being from RoM and
: |> Macedonia - to bat for you. It is not called a.n.RoM. isn't it?
: |>
: |>
: |> : Second, who the hell are you? Sveti Jovan? Who gave you the right to change
: |> : someone else's name? Can't you see the difference between Boris and Borkata?
: |>
: |> My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
: |> Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
: |> ethnicity Bulgarian, by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
: ********************
: |> that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
: |> Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
: |> one. She may leave you!
: Mr. Karadjov, thank you very much that you finally stated who you are,
: no more Macedonian Bulgarian, or Bulgarian from Macedonia, or ...,
I am Bulgraian from Macedonia - it could be said Macedonian Bulgarian
too, in english. Po nashenski e B'lgarian ot Makedonia.
: but simply a BULGARIAN, ethnic Bulgarian, and (I assume) a citizen of
: Bulgaria. As such you have nothing to do with Macedonians and Macedonia
: (except that according to your knowledge your 4 generation ancestors
: were Bulgarians and lived in the ethno-historical teritory of Macedonia).
: With other words, you have to do with Macedonia the same way memebers of
: other ethnic groups living there have to do. I hope you will also
: throw away your last mask, and show us your real face.
There is only one wrong thing with the abowe reasoninf, only one thing
that make the whole thing roten to the core. The wron asumtion that
"macedonian" means "an ethnick Macedonian". Macedonian means anyone from
Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity. Is it so hard to comprehend this
simple thing? If some people want to impose some other meaning -so be it,
but please keep this opinions to yourselfe, do not impose them on others.
And I am stating again that I am MACEDONIAN, on the virtue of being born
in Macedonia, and by ethnicity I am Bulgarian. This two things are not
mutualy axlusive, but exactly the oposit - you have to use both to
describe me perfecty, in the same way you have to use American and Texan
to descibe someone from Texas. I hope that you can at least comprehend
this simple matter.
: BTW, does the fact that you are cristen in a church (eastern orthodox)
: make you a kind of supeiror person? Many millions of people are also
: christend by the eastern-orthodox but I do not think thay think they
: are superior :-)
Not so many people in the former commnuist countires, including
Ygoslavia were even bitised or cristen. That I was only shows strong
family traditions, nothing more.
karadjov
<Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za> <4rpk4l$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rr0d1$i...@tuegate.tue.
nl>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za> <4rpk4l$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 8 Jul 96 07:05:21 UTC
: |> Lines: 94
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22478 soc.culture.europe:75150
: |>
: |> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: |>
: |> : In article <4roah7$b...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
: |> : > Hello,
: |> : >
: |> : >
: |> : > You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes
: |> : > both ways.
: |> : >
: |> : > You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
: |> : > If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to you. Self
: |>
: |> : And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else but
: |> : self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some additional rights?
: |>
: |> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
: |> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
: ... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
: Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
: century only. Thank you.
Can you extrapulate on this statement? It will be interesting!
: [snip]
: |> : Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
: |> : No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and when
: |> : they emerged.
: |>
: |> No matter when the conspt of nations emerged, you can not chage the fact
: |> that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
: |> creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speack
: |> for himselfe. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
: |> archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
: |> are well known.
: The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
: it became true only 5 years ago.
: If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
: perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
: "the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
Can you give us examples of something I/WE stoled? I would like precise
accusations, MR. PERCECUTOR!
: |>
: |> : > Historically it's a relatively new concept. Not to say it's not
: |> : > a reallity ! If you want nothing to do with Bulgarians,fine.
: |> : > But, please, why steal our national herritage in the process?
: |>
: |> : The only relevant and valid fact from the previous paragraph is that the
: |> : Macedonian natian is a reality. Everything else is just a personal standing.
: |>
: |> Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
: |> falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
: ***************
: |> front some questions, the answers of which are not very plesant to some
: |> people.
: This and similar statements are nothing new for us, neither they were for
: our ancestors. Above all, you are experts in this area ;-)
Who are "You" - after all here is only me!
And while we are still here - who are your ansestors - I would like
names, MR. HISTORIAN!
Georgi Karadjov
----------------------------------------------------------------
: Stop on by the Internet TeleCafe! telnet://telecafe.com:9000 :
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karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: > Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
: > right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
: Ma nemoj! Da ne ste mozebi i vie "bozja" nacija kako i Srbite?
Pa mozhe i da sme. pa i vie zaedno sans - nali sme si roda! Kak vika
Stoichkov - Bog e B'lgarin!
: > When you can not say enything meaningfull, or your argument does not
: > hold water, your natural respons is to cry "Let's not discuss anything".
: > How memorable and reveling!
: Sledniot pat procitaj sto e napisano, a ne sto sakas da procitas.
: I barem malku razgledaj ja moznosta deka ponekogas i drugite se vo pravo,
: i deka vistinata mozebi ne e ona sto tebe ti se pletka niz mozoceto.
I do aknowledge when womone is right, but in this case it is not so.
: [izbrisani besmislici]
: Mislam deka si ti edno razmazeno detiste koe misli deka
: sopstvenata golemina e proporcionalna na kolicinata na plukanjeto vrz drugite.
: Za zal i nie gresime sto im pridavame tolku golemo znacenie na besmislicite koi
: gi pisuvas.
Abe bate -shtotie? Da ti ne e nekoi slozhi machka u gachite, ta ne
mozhesh spokoino da sedish! You are geting to emotional.
: Ako si tolku golem Bugarin sto majka baras vo Kanada?
I am asking the same question - what are you doing in Australia? Maybe
you can answer for both of us?
: Vrati se nazad vo Blgarija i odi cekaj vo red za leb.
: Se razbira, na opaska.
No, no, no - my grandmother makes the bread at home, my mother does the
same. I do not have to wait in line, neither here, nor in Bulgaria!
: Toni.
Georgi Karadjov
P.S. Tonche, ako tia discusii the usbudjuat tolkova mnogo, pa kazhi si- ke
go karame po leko!
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 8 Jul 96 06:37:38 UTC
: |> Lines: 172
: [snip references]
: |> : > So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
: |>
: |> : No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
: |> : mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
: |>
: |> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
: |> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
: |> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
: ************* *********************
: I have never doubted :-))
Doubted what?
Georgi Karadjov
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: T3 bandwidth, 9600-33,600bps+ISDN Endless medieval enjoyment! :
: :
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
karadjov
Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: > Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: > : In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: > : > Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: >
: > The above deleted to save space. For references, look at prvious
: > postings in this thread.
: >
: > : > : Who cares about that? You are missing the point.
: > : >
: > : > No I am not! I am just having fun!
: >
: > : I deeply apologize I didn't understand your fun.
: >
: > No bary is perfect!
: At least YOU are not perfect. First step - learn the spelling.
What fore - there are secretaries, spellcheckers and such, when one have
time for such trivialities.
: > : Well, either you are stupid or behave like a stupid one.
: > : Of course there are words in the Petrich or Strumica or Bitola or Lerin or Kukus
: > : dialect I do not understand.
: > : That's called reachness and diversity of the languages. It is a common thing with
: > : all other languages.
: >
: >
: > You called the above not Macedonain. It against emphisise my point that
: > the language you speack - the thing called "Litteray Macedonian" was
: > created in order to differentiate the "official" language as far as
: > posible from the common dialects spocken in Macedonia. You as
: > a"Macedonain" should be able to recognize any dialect spocken in
: > Macedonia, and except it as a form of "Macedonian" not call it something
: > else.
: Every literary language is a matter of standard.
: A trivial example. No one in Italia speaks literary Italian. I repeat, NO ONE.
: Dialects from Rome, Milano and Sicilia are that different that people from
: these areas can not understand each other at all unless they speak literary
: Italian.
: Read about the dialects in India, China or about Croatia which might be
: closer to you.
You are giving me examples from Italy - OK! Let's work on this basis.
I do not thing that a guy from Napoly will calll the dialect of someone
from Calabria or Sicily not Italian. But this is exactly what you did.
As you can see your argument is nothing more but dust in the eyes of the
oponent. You are refusing to deal with the real problem. That you, who
is claiming to be "macedonai", can not recognize one of the regional
macedonian dialect. Can you extrapulate on this point, dear friend?
: > : If it is not case with Bulgarian then it is as natural as Esperanto.
: > : It is a great compliment when you Bulgarians call my language Serbian, and when
: > : Serbian people call my language Bulgarian.
: > : A great evidence that I speak a pure Macedonian.
: > :
: >
: > The language you speack is what Blazhe Konevski envisioned as
: > "Macerdonian" - as far away from the original dialects and as close as
: > posssible to Serbian. Not a grate vision to brag about, ehy?
: I just can't resist to call you what you are. A stuborn idiot!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Aha, geting emotional. First signs of a person who is losing an argument
is becoming amotional!
: What I speak is a mixture of Skopje and Tetovo dialect. My parents
: were born there. Whe I write jokes I use the same dialect.
: I speak the same way my grandparents used to speak.
: Blaze Koneski has nothing to do with my spoken language.
: When I write I use literary Macedonian language (to the best of my knowlegde)
: and I assure you that it is very close to the way I speak in the streets.
After 50 years of learning this thing in school, it will become almost
an universal street language, at least in the big towns. So tell me, why
is it so different from the regional dialects spocken in Pirin and Agean
Macedonai?
: > : > : > My estiamte is that the jockes, judging by the language and the
: > : > : > thematics, are originaly from Serbia.
: > : >
: > : > : Judging by the language? Are you telling me I am serbian?
: > : >
: > : > Now, I am not telling you that. I am just speculating where the jocke
: > : > came from, and that you that you are probably a typical Yugo creation,
: > : > which sucks up Yugo culture with metric tons.
: >
: > : This is typical communist behavior. When no other arguments exist then label your
: > : enemy with dirty names. And, of course, do not forget to say it in a 'funny'
: > : manner.
: >
: > I am not labaling anyone- I just speculate. You are telling jockes,
: > which originated in Yugoslavia, make fun of ehtnic people from Ygoslavia,
: > exhibit belives commonly held in Yugoslavia( about the people from Monte
: > Negro), and other such Yugosalvian characteristcs. One of the obvious
: > conclusions is that we are dealing with a product of Yugoslavia here. Can
: > you prove me wrong?
: Next time I will write a joke about Bulgarian people.
: Your "obvious conclusion" will be that I am a product of Bulgaria.
: Next time try to think before you draw conclusions.
And interestin - what will this jocke will be?
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 7 Jul 96 05:35:32 UTC: |>
: |> Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au) wrote:
: |> : In article <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> : > So tell me - when you speack to your relatives in Bulgaria, which
: |> : > language do you use? Is it different from the language they use every
: |> : > day? Do you need a translator, like Kiro?
: |> : > Happy now?
: |> : >
: |> : > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: |> : > : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
: |> : > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: |> : Dutch and German languages are that similar that both nations can understand each
: |> : other's language.
: |> : Why don't you try to persuade Dutch people that they do not know what they are
: |> : and tell them they are German?
: |>
: |> Dutch and Germans, as separate people have existed for quet some time.
: |> They are part of the same original german tribes. I am not saing that
: |> today there exist something like "Macedonia" nation - I am only stating
: |> that it is 50 years old, and it was created for political reasons. The
: Neither is the Macedonian nation 50 years old, nor it was created for
: political reasons. However, the first semi-independent (semi-free, etc.)
Now that is totaly naive!! There are transcripts from meetings of
Stalin, Tito and Georgi Dimitrov, which discus exactly this thing - the
political reasons behind the creation of Macedonain Nation. I will be
glad if you dispute the existence of this documents, just because I will
have the satisafction of seing you humiliate yourselfe in front of
everyone!
: Macedonian state existed for 47 years. The free and independent Macedonian
: state is (almost) 5 years old. These are the facts, Mr. Karadjov.
: Although Germans and Dutch have common ancestors (germanic tribes),
: Bulgarians and Macedonians do NOT have. There has never been in the past
: massive mix between Bulgarians and Macedonians.
And this is totaly, and I repeat, totaly STUPID. The ansestors of the
today Bulgarians( which were formed from a group of people consisting of
about 80% slavs) and what you call "Macedonians" do have the same
ansestors - the south slavs, which in the 6th century relpaced most of the
previous inhabitanse of the Blakans in the areas of Serbia, Bulgarian,
Chroatia, the geographical region of Macedonia and some other places.
This common ansestros spoke the same alnguage up to the end of the 1oth
century, probably even later.
I will also like to see you respond with the old chlishe of the "people
of Alex" surviving even today, just for the reason I mentioned above!
: |> lady in question was arguing that the people spoke to her in some laguage
: |> different from the laguage they use every day. My point was simply that
: |> she is mistaken, that she did not need a translator to speack to her
: |> relaitves in thier contemporary language wich is Bulgarian. Any problems
: |> here.
: |>
: |> : What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
: |> : Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
: |>
: |> No I am not saing that. Today you can make the case that what you call
: |> Macedonian are not Bulgarians, with some justification. My point is that
: |> until 1913 such division was not pocible, and the slavic population of
: |> Macedonia was indeed purely Bulgarian.
: Neither now, nor in 1913, nor before 1913. As I stated before, Macedonians
: have never massively intermixed with Bulgarians (or for that matter Slavs
: with Bulgar-Tatars).
Read the above coments, and go meditate on this problem - "how can I
make a biger fool of myselfe?"
: |>
: |>
: |> : That St. Naum and St.Kliment were Bulgarians only because they worked in Bulgaria
: |> : for a certain period of time? This is a trivial example of a lack of common sense.
: |> : Then you are American and I am Australian. Is that what you are trying to prove?
: |>
: |> Not I am not American - I am Canadia, in the same way you are Ausy.
: |>
: |> The point about St. Kliment and Naum is different- At the time they
: |> were alive( now follow me carefy here and try to comprehend) THERE WERE NO
: |> PEOPLE CALLED MACEDONIANS! NON, zilch, zero, non at all!! The people of
: |> the Byzantium regarded the slavic population of Peonia( Yes, that what the
: |> today's geographical area called Macedonia was know as then!) - the area
: |> around Spoje, Ohrid, and such - as Bulgarians. You can check contemporary
: |> Byzantium chronilers such as Scilitse to see that I am teling the truth.
: |> Until you do so, please, spear me the meaningles arguments. So St.
: |> Kliment and Naum can be called Bulgarians, not becaus ethey worked for
: |> Kniaz Boris and his son Simeon, but because they came from areas populated
: |> with Bulgarians.
: The Slavic tribe called Smoljani has always been in war with the Bulgar-Tataric
: tribes. When the later become christians, they have accepted the language
: of the former and have abandoned their natiave one.
And where did this tribe lived dear friend? Or you may extrapolate on
this preoblem - what hapen of the other slavic tribes on the balkans, such
as the seven tribes of Misia? And which historian did give an acount of
the events you are refering to? Can you be precice here?
Plamen Malinov
In article <4rr0d1$i...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski)
wrote:
>>> Georgi Karagjov wrote:
>>>>Hello,
>>>>You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes both ways.
>>>>You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
>>>>If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to yourself
>>>(GN)And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else
>>>but self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some
>>>additional rights?
>>(GK)Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentleman in question one extreamly
>>important right - the right to defend his heritage from people like you!
>(GN).... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
>Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
>century only. Thank you.
Hey, Goce,
It is not proper to twist and misread the words of George.
>[snip]
>>>(GN)Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
>>>No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and
>>>when they emerged.
>>(GK)No matter when the concept of nations emerged, you can not change the
>>fact that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
>>creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speak
>>for himself. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
>>archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
>>are well known.
>(GN)The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
>it became true only 5 years ago.
>If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
>perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
>"the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
>
>[snip]
I would like to give some verse of Nikola Vapcarov in original. Maybe you can
read it, and think about him. The verse is written some hours before Nikola
Vapcarov to be killed - in his notebook, which was given after that to his
wife Bojka Vapcarova. It is devoted to his wife. Usually before the death
people are the most sincere. The notebook can be seen in the house-museum of
Nikola Vapcarov in Sofia.
Regards: Plamen
Proshtalno
Nikola Vapcarov
Ponyakoga shte idvam vqv sqnya ti
kato nechakan i dalechen gostenin.
Ne me ostavyay ti otvqn na pqtya,
vratite ne zalostvay.
Shte vlezna tiho, krotko shte prisedna,
shte vperya pogled v mraka da te vidya.
Kogato se nasitya da te gledam,
shte te celuna i shte si otida.
Goce Naumoski
In article <4rtdpu$p...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
|> In article <4rr0d1$i...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski)
|> wrote:
|> >>> Georgi Karagjov wrote:
|>
|> >>>>Hello,
|> >>>>You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes both ways.
|> >>>>You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
|> >>>>If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to yourself
|>
|> >>>(GN)And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else
|> >>>but self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some
|> >>>additional rights?
Mr. Malinov, these words are not my words. When you include some text,
please do not temper with the authors' names. The first sentence is written
by Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za>, then the second one is
written by Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au).
|>
|> >>(GK)Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentleman in question one extreamly
|> >>important right - the right to defend his heritage from people like you!
|>
|> >(GN).... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
|> >Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
|> >century only. Thank you.
Then Mr. Karadjov <gkar...@idirect.com> wrote the next one, on which
I responded with (what I thought) a question [I hope you have noticed
the '?'-mark at the end of the sentence].
|>
|> Hey, Goce,
|> It is not proper to twist and misread the words of George.
As you see, I have just only asked something. And in the case there
comes no answer, I've taken the right to express my "thankfulness".
So, I have not twisted anyword. You Mr. Malinov, on the other hand
put the initial letters of my names before the text I'v never written.
|>
|> >[snip]
|>
|> >>>(GN)Look who's talking about creating a glorious past!
|> >>>No, YOU go to your local library and read about the concept of nations and
|> >>>when they emerged.
The same story here: these are NOT my words, Mr. malinov.
|>
|> >>(GK)No matter when the concept of nations emerged, you can not change the
|> >>fact that the consept of Macedonian Nation is only 50 years old. As for
|> >>creating glorious past - the gentlman in question does not have to speak
|> >>for himself. This job is done by countless historical, architecural,
|> >>archeological, artistic, cultural, political, and so on, monuments, which
|> >>are well known.
|>
|> >(GN)The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
|> >it became true only 5 years ago.
|> >If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
|> >perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
|> >"the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
|> >
|> >[snip]
|>
|> I would like to give some verse of Nikola Vapcarov in original. Maybe you can
|> read it, and think about him. The verse is written some hours before Nikola
|> Vapcarov to be killed - in his notebook, which was given after that to his
|> wife Bojka Vapcarova. It is devoted to his wife. Usually before the death
|> people are the most sincere. The notebook can be seen in the house-museum of
|> Nikola Vapcarov in Sofia.
Of course, I believe you until I check it or see it verified by a trusted
individual with the hope that you have not done the same as you did above.
However, I have a small question: who gave that notebook to his wife,
his killers maybe? In that case, I fully believe you, and no verification
is necessary ;-
Regards,
Goce.
Svetlozar Petkov
Goce says that Macedonians and "Bulgars-Tatars" have no common
ancestry AT ALL!!!
Sorry to disappoint you! The Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs,
Croats etc. all have common ancestry- the South Slavic tribes
came to the Balkan peninsula in the 5th and 6th centuries AD.
Before that the population consisted of Greek, Thracian and
Illirian speaking tribes which were subjugated and assimilated.
The only remnant of those (north of Greece) are the Albanians.
But then again,you'll probably claim that the "unique,
separate, Macedonian nation" has existed for 4000 years and
Alexander the Great spoke Macedonian, the way we know it today.
Damn, how did historians miss that. Silly people!
Nationality is not a simple quality like the colour of your
eyes.MOST OF ALL it is a matter of what the person FEELS HE OR
SHE IS! You feel that you are Macedonian, so you are
Macedonian. Throghout the last 200 years lots of individuals
born in Macedonia considered themselves to be Bulgarian.Why do
you think Bulgarians feel so strongly about the whole issue? In
the 18th century the Bulgarian nation reawekened after 350
years of Turkish repression and rediscovered its national
pride. Do you know who started it? A monk called Paisiy
Hilendarski with his book "Istoriya Slavyanobolgarska". Born in
Bansko, where Vaptzarov was born! In the next 150 years scores
of Bulgarian revolutionaries and cultural figures emerged from
Macedonia- Georgi Rakovski, Petko Kiriakov, the Miladinov
brothers, Lubomir Miletich to name but a few .
WHO could force them to be Bulgarian?- the Turks???
They were proudly Macedonian AND Bulgarian. The concept of them
belonging to the "unique Macedonian nation" would make them
lough, in the least!
I don't deny you the right to be Macedonian- lek vi pat! But
respect the right of self determination of others- namely the
people in Pirinska Makedonia and especially of all those
historical figures, from Kliment to Vaptzarov, who through
their words and deeds made it VERY CLEAR what nationality they
thought themselves to be!
Lastly, something to make you happy. I'm NOT coming back to
this newsgroup. I have better things to do, rather than arguing
with a bunch of upstart chauvinists, spinning yarns and
striking great Balkan poses.I leave it to Georgi to keep watch
and counter your next outrageous claim.
Yours Trully,
Zarko
Boris Docevski
The title of this thread says it all.
Boris Docevski
Abe Toni, ti velam ne si gubi vreme so Bugaretinki i Grchetinki...
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqdv3$a...@tuegate.tue.nl>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 9 Jul 96 03:59:48 UTC
|> Lines: 93
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22570 soc.culture.europe:75284
[old references deleted]
|> : |> My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
|> : |> Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
|> : |> ethnicity Bulgarian, by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
|> : ********************
|> : |> that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
|> : |> Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
|> : |> one. She may leave you!
|>
|>
|> : Mr. Karadjov, thank you very much that you finally stated who you are,
|> : no more Macedonian Bulgarian, or Bulgarian from Macedonia, or ...,
|>
|> I am Bulgraian from Macedonia - it could be said Macedonian Bulgarian
|> too, in english. Po nashenski e B'lgarian ot Makedonia.
Ami, "bate" Gjorgji, jas sum si Makedonche od Makedonija; shto da pravam,
koga ne sum golem B'LGARIN kako tebe ;^)
|> : but simply a BULGARIAN, ethnic Bulgarian, and (I assume) a citizen of
|> : Bulgaria. As such you have nothing to do with Macedonians and Macedonia
|> : (except that according to your knowledge your 4 generation ancestors
|> : were Bulgarians and lived in the ethno-historical teritory of Macedonia).
|> : With other words, you have to do with Macedonia the same way memebers of
|> : other ethnic groups living there have to do. I hope you will also
|> : throw away your last mask, and show us your real face.
|>
|> There is only one wrong thing with the abowe reasoninf, only one thing
|> that make the whole thing roten to the core. The wron asumtion that
|> "macedonian" means "an ethnick Macedonian". Macedonian means anyone from
|> Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity. Is it so hard to comprehend this
|> simple thing? If some people want to impose some other meaning -so be it,
|> but please keep this opinions to yourselfe, do not impose them on others.
Of course not, but probably for you it is hard to comprehend that
you and me are NOT the same; we are humans, originate from the same
part of the Balkans, however, we are different. And, "bate" Gjorgji, that
small dfference is the MOST important one. If you didn't know, it is
called "ethnic consciousness", 'bate' Gjorgji.
I know you know it, but I think it is too hard for your stomach :-)
|>
|> And I am stating again that I am MACEDONIAN, on the virtue of being born
|> in Macedonia, and by ethnicity I am Bulgarian. This two things are not
|> mutualy axlusive, but exactly the oposit - you have to use both to
|> describe me perfecty, in the same way you have to use American and Texan
|> to descibe someone from Texas. I hope that you can at least comprehend
|> this simple matter.
I'm sorry for you, but I have no such difficult problems as you have or
as a Texan could have. It is easy to describe me, "I am MACEDONIAN, on the
virtue being born in Macedonia, and by ethnicity I am Macedonian."
Actually I lied a litlle, because when another Macedonia asks me where I do
come from, I have some problems in describing me perfectly. I tell him
I am from Ohrid. But, save us God, when an Ohrigjanin asks me where do I come
from, then I have real problems explaining my ancestry tree ...
The life is not easy, 'bate' Gjorgji :-)
For you, and those like you, being a 'Macedonian' (originating from
Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
[del]
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqgpr$c...@tuegate.tue.nl>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 9 Jul 96 04:01:30 UTC
|> Lines: 32
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22571 soc.culture.europe:75285
|>
|> Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
|> : In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> : |> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
|> : |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> : |> Date: 8 Jul 96 06:37:38 UTC
|> : |> Lines: 172
|>
|> : [snip references]
|>
|>
|> : |> : > So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
|> : |>
|> : |> : No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
|> : |> : mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
|> : |>
|> : |> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
|> : |> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
|> : |> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
|> : ************* *********************
|>
|> : I have never doubted :-))
|>
|> Doubted what?
That you are like "lovdzhiski pes" :-))) I thank God you are not like a wolf.
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Internet Direct. Realms of Despair! :
|> : (416)233-2999, 1000 lines telnet realms.game.org 4000 :
|> : T3 bandwidth, 9600-33,600bps+ISDN Endless medieval enjoyment! :
|> : :
|> : Stop by for a drink at the Internet TeleCafe -- telecafe.com 9000 :
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqehn$a...@tuegate.tue.nl>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 9 Jul 96 05:07:43 UTC
|> Lines: 116
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22577 soc.culture.europe:75288
[old references deleted]
[del]
|>
|> : Neither is the Macedonian nation 50 years old, nor it was created for
|> : political reasons. However, the first semi-independent (semi-free, etc.)
|>
|> Now that is totaly naive!! There are transcripts from meetings of
|> Stalin, Tito and Georgi Dimitrov, which discus exactly this thing - the
|> political reasons behind the creation of Macedonain Nation. I will be
|> glad if you dispute the existence of this documents, just because I will
|> have the satisafction of seing you humiliate yourselfe in front of
|> everyone!
Of course I do not; politics has been and is involved in the Balkans
constantly. Even in 1990, and even today. However, the problem with you is
that you cannot grasp that Macedonians have fought for free and independent
Macedonia decades and even centuries before 1945. Let me again use
a sentence from yesterday, "when my g-g-father and my g-g-g-father fought
for the freedom of Macedonia, Tito was in the balls of his father. Stalin
and Dimitrov also." I hope this will help you solve your problem.
|>
|> : Macedonian state existed for 47 years. The free and independent Macedonian
|> : state is (almost) 5 years old. These are the facts, Mr. Karadjov.
|> : Although Germans and Dutch have common ancestors (germanic tribes),
|> : Bulgarians and Macedonians do NOT have. There has never been in the past
|> : massive mix between Bulgarians and Macedonians.
|>
|>
|> And this is totaly, and I repeat, totaly STUPID. The ansestors of the
|> today Bulgarians( which were formed from a group of people consisting of
|> about 80% slavs) and what you call "Macedonians" do have the same
|> ansestors - the south slavs, which in the 6th century relpaced most of the
**************************
|> previous inhabitanse of the Blakans in the areas of Serbia, Bulgarian,
|> Chroatia, the geographical region of Macedonia and some other places.
^^^^^^^^
|> This common ansestros spoke the same alnguage up to the end of the 1oth
|> century, probably even later.
What? The south slavs bulgarian ancestors? Give me a break. This only
shows that you recently have not been in Bulgaria. In recent time they
are actually rediscovering their real ancestors the Bulgar-Tatars.
Also, in some Macedonian magazines (like "Delo", "Makedonsko sonce",
and if I'm not mistaken "Dnevnik") discussions are going on abou this
topic. The conclusion being that no massive intermix between Slavs and
Bulgars-Tatars has ever taken place. I would not like to be in your
place when you go to Bulgaria and say what you write above :-)
BTW, can you describe 'the region' of Croatia, or if it is difficult for you,
then Serbia ;-)
|>
|> I will also like to see you respond with the old chlishe of the "people
|> of Alex" surviving even today, just for the reason I mentioned above!
I'll let this to our sothern neighbours :-) BTW, did you forget that
your ancestors used this also :-)))
However, for me, the culture and the history are enough.
|> : |> lady in question was arguing that the people spoke to her in some laguage
|> : |> different from the laguage they use every day. My point was simply that
|> : |> she is mistaken, that she did not need a translator to speack to her
|> : |> relaitves in thier contemporary language wich is Bulgarian. Any problems
|> : |> here.
|> : |>
|> : |> : What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
|> : |> : Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
|> : |>
|> : |> No I am not saing that. Today you can make the case that what you call
|> : |> Macedonian are not Bulgarians, with some justification. My point is that
|> : |> until 1913 such division was not pocible, and the slavic population of
|> : |> Macedonia was indeed purely Bulgarian.
|>
|> : Neither now, nor in 1913, nor before 1913. As I stated before, Macedonians
|> : have never massively intermixed with Bulgarians (or for that matter Slavs
|> : with Bulgar-Tatars).
|>
|>
|> Read the above coments, and go meditate on this problem - "how can I
|> make a biger fool of myselfe?"
Thanks for the advice, however, I'll sit and laugh when you go to
Bulgaria next time and start presenting your above thoughts :-)
[del]
|> : The Slavic tribe called Smoljani has always been in war with the Bulgar-Tataric
|> : tribes. When the later become christians, they have accepted the language
|> : of the former and have abandoned their natiave one.
|>
|> And where did this tribe lived dear friend? Or you may extrapolate on
|> this preoblem - what hapen of the other slavic tribes on the balkans, such
|> as the seven tribes of Misia? And which historian did give an acount of
|> the events you are refering to? Can you be precice here?
In the central areas of the Balkans, 'bate' Gjogji, in touch with your
ancestors Bulgar-Tatars. Are you going to Bulgaria this summer?
Well, then I'll be more precise after the summer, if you are still here on a.n.m.
BTW, descendants of some other tribes, Brsjaci and Mijaci, are still
alive and well.
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Visit our "Do-It-Yourself!" Website http://web.idirect.com :
|> : Easy, Fun & Affordable Webspace rental for less than $10 per month :
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Lines: 90
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22578 soc.culture.europe:75289
[old references deleted]
|> : |> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
|> : |> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
|>
|> : ... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
|> : Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
|> : century only. Thank you.
|>
|> Can you extrapulate on this statement? It will be interesting!
Do I need to do that?
[del]
|> : The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
|> : it became true only 5 years ago.
|> : If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
|> : perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
|> : "the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
|>
|> Can you give us examples of something I/WE stoled? I would like precise
|> accusations, MR. PERCECUTOR!
Oh, sorry, 'bate' Gjorgji, I thought your were capable of understanding that
I did not mean you, Mr. G. Karadjov, personally, but those like you
ethnic Bulgarians. Well I'm neither a judge nor a lawyer, but
if you insist, the 'accusation' against you is that you are denying the
deeds perpetrated by your ancestors against my ancestors. Now, if there
several like yuou out there, I'm afarid you'll create conditions of
repeating today the same your ancestors have done to my ancestors.
[del]
|> : |> Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
|> : |> falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
|> : ***************
|> : |> front some questions, the answers of which are not very plesant to some
|> : |> people.
|>
|> : This and similar statements are nothing new for us, neither they were for
|> : our ancestors. Above all, you are experts in this area ;-)
|>
|> Who are "You" - after all here is only me!
"We" is me, and some millions of other ethnic Macedonians, as perfectly stated
in teh above statement, and "you" are you, and those like you.
|>
|> And while we are still here - who are your ansestors - I would like
|> names, MR. HISTORIAN!
Well, you are asking too much, telling you the name of my ancestors ;^
BTW, you are giving me too much credits. And if it is not that, but you are
doing this only for the purpose of 'discovering' nick-names, it will not
be far away from the line of your tutors ...
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Stop on by the Internet TeleCafe! telnet://telecafe.com:9000 :
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Stavros N. Karageorgis
In article <4rvjna$r...@tuegate.tue.nl> go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:
<snip>
>For you, and those like you, being a 'Macedonian' (originating from
>Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
>for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
>in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
I can certainly understand how for you being 'Macedonian' is doubly important.
It is both your ethno-national identity and your regional identity. In fact,
if you go by your favorite practice of equating RM with 'Macedonia', it is
triply important because it also denotes your civic-national identity.
What I can't understand and cannot swallow is you telling others what being
'Macedonian' means to them, nay assert that it means 'nothing, except using it
for different purposes'. How do you know, and who are you to tell others what
their proclamation of being "X' means to them? I thought we had agreed that
identites are EMIC categories, not ETIC; they are irreducibly subjective. If
you want others to accept you for who you are (and they should, although that
doesn't mean that they also have to accept your rationale for claiming to be
such) you probably should extend the same courtesy to others as well. Your
problems with Mr. Karadjov are not what he says he is, but he claims he has a
right to do based on that. 'Macedonians' of the non-ethno-national variety
have the same kind of problem with SOME of the ethno-national Macedonians as
well.
Noone is served by truing to tell others who they 'really' are or who they
'should' feel they are. No ethno-national Macedonian has ever been convinced
by Greeks telling him/her that he/she is a 'Slavo-Paeonian', or by Bulgarians
telling him/her that he/she is 'Bulgarian'. And no Greek-Macedonian,
regardless of mother tongue, ancestry, degree of indigenousness, etc. has ever
been convinced by ethno-national Macedonians or Bulgarians telling him/her
that he/she is 'really' an ethnic 'macedonian' or an ethnic 'bulgarian'. The
'discussions' to this effect in this group are a clear testament to the
bankruptcy of this strategy. Not only is it false, absolutely, it is also
strategically counter-productive and foolish.
Plamen Malinov
In article <4rtjfc$a...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski)
>In article <4rtdpu$p...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov)
writes:
>> In article <4rr0d1$i...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski)
>> wrote:
>>> Georgi Karagjov wrote:
>>>>Hello,
>>>>You are right about the offensive language- but, hey, it goes both ways.
>>>>You are also right about the Germans and the Dutch comparison.
>>>>If you want to be known as Macedonian, it's up to yourself
>>>And when you say that you are Bulgarian then it is also nothing else
>>>but self-determination. Or maybe being a Bulgarian gives you some
>>>additional rights?
>Mr. Malinov, these words are not my words. When you include some text,
>please do not temper with the authors' names. The first sentence is written
>by Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za>, then the second one is
>written by Toni Stojanovski (to...@panther.catt.rmit.edu.au).
I am sorry, that I was busy those days, and have not the possibility to
follow the discussion about Vapcarov in this news-group. Because of this, I
have attached some words of other Macedonians to Goce Naumoski, and some
words of other Bulgarians to Georgi Karadjov. I apologize for my mistake.
.........
>>I would like to give some verse of Nikola Vapcarov in original. Maybe you
>>can read it, and think about him. The verse is written some hours before
>>Nikola Vapcarov to be killed - in his notebook, which was given after that
>>to his wife Bojka Vapcarova. It is devoted to his wife. Usually before the
>>death people are the most sincere. The notebook can be seen in the
>>house-museum of Nikola Vapcarov in Sofia.
-------------------------------------------
Proshtalno
Nikola Vapcarov
Ponyakoga shte idvam vqv sqnya ti
kato nechakan i dalechen gostenin.
Ne me ostavyay ti otvqn na pqtya,
vratite ne zalostvay.
Shte vlezna tiho, krotko shte prisedna,
shte vperya pogled v mraka da te vidya.
Kogato se nasitya da te gledam,
shte te celuna i shte si otida.
-------------------------------------------
>Of course, I believe you until I check it or see it verified by a trusted
>individual with the hope that you have not done the same as you did above.
>However, I have a small question: who gave that notebook to his wife,
>his killers maybe? In that case, I fully believe you, and no verification
>is necessary ;-
The notebook, and all private belongings of Nikola Vapcarov were given after
fulfillment of his death penalty to his family, according to Bulgarian law.
It is quite easy to check WHO was written the above verse, comparing the hand
writings of Nikola Vapcarov, and also his style. But maybe it would be useful
for you to read in original the book "Motorni pesni". In the house-museum of
Nikola Vapcarov in Sofia you can see the original mahuscipts with the changes
and alterations made by Vapcarov before the publication in 1940.
Regards: Plamen
Boris Docevski
In article <karageor.11...@ucla.edu>, kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros
N. Karageorgis) wrote:
Easy, Dr. K., easy...Take a deep breath, relax, and don't start
cursing everyone on sight again... :-)
Boris Docevski
Stop crossposting from scb, Malinov. Stick to yuor BULGAR issues in
your BULGAR newsgroup.
Vassil Karloukovski
In article <4rvktt$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl says...
>In article <....compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
[snip]
>Of course I do not; politics has been and is involved in the Balkans
>constantly. Even in 1990, and even today. However, the problem with you is
>that you cannot grasp that Macedonians have fought for free and independent
>Macedonia decades and even centuries before 1945.
No, they fought for free Macedonia even MILLENIA before 1945 ! The bad
Greeks, during their colonization of the aegean islands they exhumated
the graves and dumped the remains of the previous Pelasgo-Macedonians.
To conceal the magnificent Macedonian pre-Greek history.
The poor Pelasgians... They and their small round shields....
>Let me again use
>a sentence from yesterday, "when my g-g-father and my g-g-g-father fought
>for the freedom of Macedonia, Tito was in the balls of his father. Stalin
>and Dimitrov also." I hope this will help you solve your problem.
I eagerly look forward to your evidence of macedonian (not bulgar)
uprising or even a single cheta at time when 'Tito was ... '.
When (if) your forefathers fought for the freedom of M. they sang
'Zhiv e toi, zhiv e tam na Balkana' i 'Izgrei zora na svobodata' -
songs which you have obviously never listened.
>|> : Macedonian state existed for 47 years. The free and independent Macedonian
>|> : state is (almost) 5 years old. These are the facts, Mr. Karadjov.
>|> : Although Germans and Dutch have common ancestors (germanic tribes),
>|> : Bulgarians and Macedonians do NOT have. There has never been in the past
>|> : massive mix between Bulgarians and Macedonians.
No, there are medieval evidences of the settlement of both slavs and bulgars
in Macedonia. I posted some info about a month ago.
>|> And this is totaly, and I repeat, totaly STUPID. The ansestors of the
>|> today Bulgarians( which were formed from a group of people consisting of
>|> about 80% slavs) and what you call "Macedonians" do have the same
>|> ansestors - the south slavs, which in the 6th century relpaced most of the
> **************************
>|> previous inhabitanse of the Blakans in the areas of Serbia, Bulgarian,
>|> Chroatia, the geographical region of Macedonia and some other places.
> ^^^^^^^^
>|> This common ansestros spoke the same alnguage up to the end of the 1oth
>|> century, probably even later.
>What? The south slavs bulgarian ancestors? Give me a break. This only
>shows that you recently have not been in Bulgaria. In recent time they
>are actually rediscovering their real ancestors the Bulgar-Tatars.
'Tatar' is a notion used from the 13-th c. on, 'Bulgar' - from seven
centuries earlier. Don't confuse these terms.
>Also, in some Macedonian magazines (like "Delo", "Makedonsko sonce",
>and if I'm not mistaken "Dnevnik") discussions are going on abou this
>topic. The conclusion being that no massive intermix between Slavs and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Bulgars-Tatars has ever taken place. I would not like to be in your
>place when you go to Bulgaria and say what you write above :-)
Please, supply us with some info from these Macedonian magazines.
Contrary to your statement we regard ourselves as a mixed people -
predominantly slavs, but also bulgars and remains of the ancient
balkan people like the thracians. Plus many other different peoples
settled during the centuries. That is to say, we DON'T think we
are a pure race (like some of you) and we DON'T have any problems
with this. Bulgars had governed the state in its early centuries
but later had been assimilated by the overwhelming slav majority.
The new hypothesis proposed in the recent years is that the ancient
bulgars were not turkic but some kind of east-iranian people, dwelling
initially somewhere around Bactria and the Pamir mountains and later
passed throught the Caucasus on their way to Europe. This theory
proved to be plausible as it explains some bulgarian words, topo/
hydronymy and personal names, untranslatable by the modern (slavo-)
bulgarian. For example: the river names Vardar and Marica; ~1000
words, many of them dialectal; and more interestingly - about 50
couples of slav and ancient bulgar words used as synonyms in the
modern language.
Maybe this is what you suppose to be the 'rediscovering of our real
ancestors'. Another detail is the correspondence found between non-
slav personal bulgarian, and pamirian&caucasian names: the
bulgar: Bacho, Benko, Bero, Bizho, Boko, Boris,...
Gago, Gogo, Ganio, Garel, Gego, Gergo, Gigo, Gocho, ...
Delcho, Dilo, Doncho, .. Vatio, Vaco, Vute, .. Kuzman, Kocho,
Lalo, Lacho, .. .. Canko, Cako, Ceko, Zheko, ....
Their eastern counterparts are quite similar. It was estimated that
approximately 10% of the modern b. bear such names with the conslusion
that the number of the Asparukh's bulgars was more than 5-20,000 as
thought up to now. Everybody could judge where is the truth for him/helself.
But I'll repeat - the issue who are one's racial/genetical ancestors
is not important, it could even lead to dangerous and fascist outcomes,
obvious is some of the makedonist postings.
>|> : The Slavic tribe called Smoljani has always been in war with the Bulgar-Tataric
>|> : tribes. When the later become christians, they have accepted the language
>|> : of the former and have abandoned their natiave one.
>|>
>|> And where did this tribe lived dear friend? Or you may extrapolate on
>|> this preoblem - what hapen of the other slavic tribes on the balkans, such
>|> as the seven tribes of Misia? And which historian did give an acount of
>|> the events you are refering to? Can you be precice here?
>
>In the central areas of the Balkans, 'bate' Gjogji, in touch with your
In the central and western areas, 'bate' Goce. BTW the pamirian word
'BAT/BACH' means 'an older brother', so you O'Gocevo Velichestvo Makedonsko
should not use such bulgar words. Be careful in preserving your m-purity.
>ancestors Bulgar-Tatars. Are you going to Bulgaria this summer?
>Well, then I'll be more precise after the summer, if you are still here on a.n.m.
>BTW, descendants of some other tribes, Brsjaci and Mijaci, are still
>alive and well.
Please tell us right now. I'm sure we'll have alot of fun.
> Georgi Karadjov
>Regards,
>Goce.
The same to you,
Vassil Karloukovski.
Boris Docevski
> Noone is served by truing to tell others who they 'really' are or who they
> 'should' feel they are. No ethno-national Macedonian has ever been convinced
> by Greeks telling him/her that he/she is a 'Slavo-Paeonian', or by Bulgarians
> telling him/her that he/she is 'Bulgarian'.
Hmmmm...There must something in the water in L.A....Dr. K. is starting
to see things right...
Boris Docevski
Post this Bulgar stuff in scb. It doesn't belong here.
karadjov
<Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqgpr$c...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rv
jql$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqgpr$c...@tuegate.tue.nl>
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 9 Jul 96 04:01:30 UTC
: |> Lines: 32
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22571 soc.culture.europe:75285
: |>
: |> Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: |> : In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> : |> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rpmkn$s...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au>
: |> : |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> : |> Date: 8 Jul 96 06:37:38 UTC
: |> : |> Lines: 172
: |>
: |> : [snip references]
: |>
: |>
: |> : |> : > So what do you want me to do - beg for your regards? Not very likly!
: |> : |>
: |> : |> : No, I want you to get lost to bulgarian news groups and to stop thinking that you
: |> : |> : mission on the earth is to persuade Macedonians about their bulgarian roots.
: |> : |>
: |> : |> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
: |> : |> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
: |> : |> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
: |> : ************* *********************
: |>
: |> : I have never doubted :-))
: |>
: |> Doubted what?
: That you are like "lovdzhiski pes" :-))) I thank God you are not like a wolf.
You have to have in mind that for example a german shepard can also be a
hunting dog, and a such bread of hunting dog will have no problems hunting
wolfs.
karadjov
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqdv3$a...@tuegate.tue.nl>
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 9 Jul 96 03:59:48 UTC
: |> Lines: 93
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22570 soc.culture.europe:75284
: [old references deleted]
: |> : |> My nane is Georgi Alexandrov Karadjov -born and raised in the town of
: |> : |> Blagoevgrad, formerly know as Gorna Djumaia, Pirin Macedonia. By
: |> : |> ethnicity Bulgarian, by religion easter orthodox - cristen in a church. Is
: |> : ********************
: |> : |> that enough. If you want more, e-mail me, I will send you a picture.
: |> : |> Just an advise - keep the picture away from your girlfirend if you have
: |> : |> one. She may leave you!
: |>
: |>
: |> : Mr. Karadjov, thank you very much that you finally stated who you are,
: |> : no more Macedonian Bulgarian, or Bulgarian from Macedonia, or ...,
: |>
: |> I am Bulgraian from Macedonia - it could be said Macedonian Bulgarian
: |> too, in english. Po nashenski e B'lgarian ot Makedonia.
: Ami, "bate" Gjorgji, jas sum si Makedonche od Makedonija; shto da pravam,
: koga ne sum golem B'LGARIN kako tebe ;^)
Pa nishto be bate. Si sedi pod nekoia sneka is si ia piuvai rakiata, i
gi zakachai chupite.
: |> : but simply a BULGARIAN, ethnic Bulgarian, and (I assume) a citizen of
: |> : Bulgaria. As such you have nothing to do with Macedonians and Macedonia
: |> : (except that according to your knowledge your 4 generation ancestors
: |> : were Bulgarians and lived in the ethno-historical teritory of Macedonia).
: |> : With other words, you have to do with Macedonia the same way memebers of
: |> : other ethnic groups living there have to do. I hope you will also
: |> : throw away your last mask, and show us your real face.
: |>
: |> There is only one wrong thing with the abowe reasoninf, only one thing
: |> that make the whole thing roten to the core. The wron asumtion that
: |> "macedonian" means "an ethnick Macedonian". Macedonian means anyone from
: |> Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity. Is it so hard to comprehend this
: |> simple thing? If some people want to impose some other meaning -so be it,
: |> but please keep this opinions to yourselfe, do not impose them on others.
: Of course not, but probably for you it is hard to comprehend that
: you and me are NOT the same; we are humans, originate from the same
: part of the Balkans, however, we are different. And, "bate" Gjorgji, that
: small dfference is the MOST important one. If you didn't know, it is
: called "ethnic consciousness", 'bate' Gjorgji.
: I know you know it, but I think it is too hard for your stomach :-)
Did I ever said I do not know it ? Long ago I have stated that anyone is
entitled to his/her ethnic consciousnes. The problem here is that you are
deniang this right to the people who you call your national herous.
: |>
: |> And I am stating again that I am MACEDONIAN, on the virtue of being born
: |> in Macedonia, and by ethnicity I am Bulgarian. This two things are not
: |> mutualy axlusive, but exactly the oposit - you have to use both to
: |> describe me perfecty, in the same way you have to use American and Texan
: |> to descibe someone from Texas. I hope that you can at least comprehend
: |> this simple matter.
: I'm sorry for you, but I have no such difficult problems as you have or
: as a Texan could have. It is easy to describe me, "I am MACEDONIAN, on the
: virtue being born in Macedonia, and by ethnicity I am Macedonian."
: Actually I lied a litlle, because when another Macedonia asks me where I do
: come from, I have some problems in describing me perfectly. I tell him
: I am from Ohrid. But, save us God, when an Ohrigjanin asks me where do I come
: from, then I have real problems explaining my ancestry tree ...
: The life is not easy, 'bate' Gjorgji :-)
I do belive you. Now it is time for you to do the same.
: For you, and those like you, being a 'Macedonian' (originating from
: Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
: for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
: in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
It isa not a matter of life for you - it is matter of satisfaing your
personal belives and ideological opinions. Nothing wrong with it. As for
the rest of us - "Macedonian" means a lot - it defines our heritage.
karadjov
<Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqehn$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rv
ktt$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqehn$a...@tuegate.tue.nl>
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 9 Jul 96 05:07:43 UTC
: |> Lines: 116
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22577 soc.culture.europe:75288
: [old references deleted]
: [del]
: |>
: |> : Neither is the Macedonian nation 50 years old, nor it was created for
: |> : political reasons. However, the first semi-independent (semi-free, etc.)
: |>
: |> Now that is totaly naive!! There are transcripts from meetings of
: |> Stalin, Tito and Georgi Dimitrov, which discus exactly this thing - the
: |> political reasons behind the creation of Macedonain Nation. I will be
: |> glad if you dispute the existence of this documents, just because I will
: |> have the satisafction of seing you humiliate yourselfe in front of
: |> everyone!
: Of course I do not; politics has been and is involved in the Balkans
: constantly. Even in 1990, and even today. However, the problem with you is
: that you cannot grasp that Macedonians have fought for free and independent
: Macedonia decades and even centuries before 1945. Let me again use
: a sentence from yesterday, "when my g-g-father and my g-g-g-father fought
: for the freedom of Macedonia, Tito was in the balls of his father. Stalin
: and Dimitrov also." I hope this will help you solve your problem.
"Have fought" - I cahlenge this statement! I call it insubstential.
Can you prove me wrong by providing some references to any such events
which are acounted for as "the doing of the ethnic Macedonians". Even
one. one single event. That is all I ask for.
Georgi Karadjov
: |>
: |> : Macedonian state existed for 47 years. The free and independent Macedonian
: |> : state is (almost) 5 years old. These are the facts, Mr. Karadjov.
: |> : Although Germans and Dutch have common ancestors (germanic tribes),
: |> : Bulgarians and Macedonians do NOT have. There has never been in the past
: |> : massive mix between Bulgarians and Macedonians.
: |>
: |>
: |> And this is totaly, and I repeat, totaly STUPID. The ansestors of the
: |> today Bulgarians( which were formed from a group of people consisting of
: |> about 80% slavs) and what you call "Macedonians" do have the same
: |> ansestors - the south slavs, which in the 6th century relpaced most of the
: **************************
: |> previous inhabitanse of the Blakans in the areas of Serbia, Bulgarian,
: |> Chroatia, the geographical region of Macedonia and some other places.
: ^^^^^^^^
: |> This common ansestros spoke the same alnguage up to the end of the 1oth
: |> century, probably even later.
: What? The south slavs bulgarian ancestors? Give me a break. This only
: shows that you recently have not been in Bulgaria. In recent time they
: are actually rediscovering their real ancestors the Bulgar-Tatars.
: Also, in some Macedonian magazines (like "Delo", "Makedonsko sonce",
: and if I'm not mistaken "Dnevnik") discussions are going on abou this
: topic. The conclusion being that no massive intermix between Slavs and
: Bulgars-Tatars has ever taken place. I would not like to be in your
: place when you go to Bulgaria and say what you write above :-)
: BTW, can you describe 'the region' of Croatia, or if it is difficult for you,
: then Serbia ;-)
: |>
: |> I will also like to see you respond with the old chlishe of the "people
: |> of Alex" surviving even today, just for the reason I mentioned above!
: I'll let this to our sothern neighbours :-) BTW, did you forget that
: your ancestors used this also :-)))
: However, for me, the culture and the history are enough.
: |> : |> lady in question was arguing that the people spoke to her in some laguage
: |> : |> different from the laguage they use every day. My point was simply that
: |> : |> she is mistaken, that she did not need a translator to speack to her
: |> : |> relaitves in thier contemporary language wich is Bulgarian. Any problems
: |> : |> here.
: |> : |>
: |> : |> : What are you trying to say? Macedonians are nothing else but pure Bulgarians?
: |> : |> : Why? Because of the similarity of the languages?
: |> : |>
: |> : |> No I am not saing that. Today you can make the case that what you call
: |> : |> Macedonian are not Bulgarians, with some justification. My point is that
: |> : |> until 1913 such division was not pocible, and the slavic population of
: |> : |> Macedonia was indeed purely Bulgarian.
: |>
: |> : Neither now, nor in 1913, nor before 1913. As I stated before, Macedonians
: |> : have never massively intermixed with Bulgarians (or for that matter Slavs
: |> : with Bulgar-Tatars).
: |>
: |>
: |> Read the above coments, and go meditate on this problem - "how can I
: |> make a biger fool of myselfe?"
: Thanks for the advice, however, I'll sit and laugh when you go to
: Bulgaria next time and start presenting your above thoughts :-)
: [del]
: |> : The Slavic tribe called Smoljani has always been in war with the Bulgar-Tataric
: |> : tribes. When the later become christians, they have accepted the language
: |> : of the former and have abandoned their natiave one.
: |>
: |> And where did this tribe lived dear friend? Or you may extrapolate on
: |> this preoblem - what hapen of the other slavic tribes on the balkans, such
: |> as the seven tribes of Misia? And which historian did give an acount of
: |> the events you are refering to? Can you be precice here?
: In the central areas of the Balkans, 'bate' Gjogji, in touch with your
: ancestors Bulgar-Tatars. Are you going to Bulgaria this summer?
: Well, then I'll be more precise after the summer, if you are still here on a.n.m.
: BTW, descendants of some other tribes, Brsjaci and Mijaci, are still
: alive and well.
:
: |>
: |> Georgi Karadjov
: |> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: |> : Visit our "Do-It-Yourself!" Website http://web.idirect.com :
: |> : Easy, Fun & Affordable Webspace rental for less than $10 per month :
: |> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Regards,
: Goce.
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: [old references deleted]
: |> : |> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
: |> : |> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
: |>
: |> : ... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
: |> : Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
: |> : century only. Thank you.
: |>
: |> Can you extrapulate on this statement? It will be interesting!
: Do I need to do that?
But ofcourse you must. You are are acusing someone of doing something,
but you do not want to give specific. It is like shouting at someone "You
are a murderer" but whithout telling who was actualy murdered.
: [del]
: |> : The concept of Macedonian STATE is known from the last century. However,
: |> : it became true only 5 years ago.
: |> : If the job was to "take from others" (to steal), then you have done it
: |> : perfectly. I think we have good teachers (around us), so it might happen
: |> : "the pupil to be better than the teacher" ;^
: |>
: |> Can you give us examples of something I/WE stoled? I would like precise
: |> accusations, MR. PERCECUTOR!
: Oh, sorry, 'bate' Gjorgji, I thought your were capable of understanding that
: I did not mean you, Mr. G. Karadjov, personally, but those like you
: ethnic Bulgarians. Well I'm neither a judge nor a lawyer, but
: if you insist, the 'accusation' against you is that you are denying the
: deeds perpetrated by your ancestors against my ancestors. Now, if there
: several like yuou out there, I'm afarid you'll create conditions of
: repeating today the same your ancestors have done to my ancestors.
And I am asking again - can you give us examples. Nothing more/nothing
less. No dust in the eyes of the oponents, no lengthly discusions - just
facts.
: [del]
: |> : |> Relative to the world is the fact that this natsia is build on
: |> : |> falsifications. It does not make it any less unreal, but simply puts in
: |> : ***************
: |> : |> front some questions, the answers of which are not very plesant to some
: |> : |> people.
: |>
: |> : This and similar statements are nothing new for us, neither they were for
: |> : our ancestors. Above all, you are experts in this area ;-)
: |>
: |> Who are "You" - after all here is only me!
: "We" is me, and some millions of other ethnic Macedonians, as perfectly stated
: in teh above statement, and "you" are you, and those like you.
Again a question - who are these others like me. Who are they?
: |>
: |> And while we are still here - who are your ansestors - I would like
: |> names, MR. HISTORIAN!
: Well, you are asking too much, telling you the name of my ancestors ;^
: BTW, you are giving me too much credits. And if it is not that, but you are
: doing this only for the purpose of 'discovering' nick-names, it will not
: be far away from the line of your tutors ...
What I am asking is names of people who were recognized by the world as
"pilars of the Macedonian ethnicity" from the time of Alexander until
1945. People who any historian will know, people who can not be disputed
by anyone.
I do not think that I ask to much. After all you have study "Macedonian
History" in highschool.
Dimitrios Zanikos
bd...@cornell.edu (Boris Docevski) writes:
>In article <karageor.11...@ucla.edu>, kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros
>N. Karageorgis) wrote:
>> Noone is served by truing to tell others who they 'really' are or who they
>> 'should' feel they are. No ethno-national Macedonian has ever been convinced
>> by Greeks telling him/her that he/she is a 'Slavo-Paeonian', or by Bulgarians
>> telling him/her that he/she is 'Bulgarian'.
> Hmmmm...There must something in the water in L.A....Dr. K. is starting
>to see things right...
So if you have been seeing things right the whole time how come you call
people "Grkomans" and "Bulgormans"? Why cant you stop telling them who
they "really" are?
have a nice day.
Goce Naumoski
In article <4ru7hv$9...@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, Svetlozar Petkov <pet...@comp.unp.ac.za> writes:
|>
|>
|> Goce says that Macedonians and "Bulgars-Tatars" have no common
|> ancestry AT ALL!!!
Yes, and the explanation was sent to you via e-mail, because
I got this in a private mail (yesterday). If someone is
interested I can post it here also.
I hope you have understood my viewpoints and explanations,
and I do hope you have learned something from them.
It would be nice, though, to explain some 'words' you are using
in the last paragrapgh of your post.
|> Yours Trully,
|> Zarko
|>
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Lines: 50
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22649 soc.culture.europe:75374
[del]
|> : |> : |> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
|> : |> : |> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
|> : |> : |> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
|> : |> : ************* *********************
|> : |>
|> : |> : I have never doubted :-))
|> : |>
|> : |> Doubted what?
|>
|>
|> : That you are like "lovdzhiski pes" :-))) I thank God you are not like a wolf.
|>
|> You have to have in mind that for example a german shepard can also be a
|> hunting dog, and a such bread of hunting dog will have no problems hunting
|> wolfs.
What stupid of me :-), I thought you were "obichen zagar" :-)))
But now I know I was wrong, you are actually "pes so pedigre"
from german race :-)
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Lines: 152
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22653 soc.culture.europe:75381
|>
|> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqehn$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rv|>
|>
|> ktt$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>
|> Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
|> Distribution:
|>
[del]
|> : Of course I do not; politics has been and is involved in the Balkans
|> : constantly. Even in 1990, and even today. However, the problem with you is
|> : that you cannot grasp that Macedonians have fought for free and independent
|> : Macedonia decades and even centuries before 1945. Let me again use
|> : a sentence from yesterday, "when my g-g-father and my g-g-g-father fought
|> : for the freedom of Macedonia, Tito was in the balls of his father. Stalin
|> : and Dimitrov also." I hope this will help you solve your problem.
|>
|> "Have fought" - I cahlenge this statement! I call it insubstential.
|> Can you prove me wrong by providing some references to any such events
|> which are acounted for as "the doing of the ethnic Macedonians". Even
|> one. one single event. That is all I ask for.
Ok, for example, in the book about "Dejan vojvoda", plenty of them.
There are also references to bulgarian sources.
Oh, does it have to bear the sign of the 'bulgarian government' in order
to be valid?
|> Georgi Karadjov
|>
Regards,
Goce.
PS. What happend to my other questions? Did you have no time to
answer, or you are not able to answer them?
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqdv3$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rvjna$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>|>
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 11 Jul 96 00:15:18 UTC
|> Lines: 98
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22650 soc.culture.europe:75375
|>
|> Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
|> Distribution:
[del]
|> : Ami, "bate" Gjorgji, jas sum si Makedonche od Makedonija; shto da pravam,
|> : koga ne sum golem B'LGARIN kako tebe ;^)
|>
|> Pa nishto be bate. Si sedi pod nekoia sneka is si ia piuvai rakiata, i
*****
|> gi zakachai chupite.
If you mean really "sneka", well thank you very much, it is nice, but if
you mean "senka", well, "rakija ne pijam, a za chupi mi pomina vremeto" :-)
I'll let my son do the job :-)))
May I ask you what then "golemit B'lgari" like you are doing?
[del]
|> : Of course not, but probably for you it is hard to comprehend that
|> : you and me are NOT the same; we are humans, originate from the same
|> : part of the Balkans, however, we are different. And, "bate" Gjorgji, that
|> : small dfference is the MOST important one. If you didn't know, it is
|> : called "ethnic consciousness", 'bate' Gjorgji.
|> : I know you know it, but I think it is too hard for your stomach :-)
|>
|> Did I ever said I do not know it ? Long ago I have stated that anyone is
|> entitled to his/her ethnic consciousnes. The problem here is that you are
|> deniang this right to the people who you call your national herous.
Wrong! The problem are your INTERPRETATIONS of their feelings, 'bate' Gjrogji.
[del]
|> : For you, and those like you, being a 'Macedonian' (originating from
|> : Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
|> : for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
|> : in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
|>
|> It isa not a matter of life for you - it is matter of satisfaing your
|> personal belives and ideological opinions. Nothing wrong with it. As for
|> the rest of us - "Macedonian" means a lot - it defines our heritage.
If "Macedonian" defines your heritage, why then you (and others)
deny that, for example, your language is derivative of Macedonian,
but you insist it is the othe rway around?
You cannot have it both, here it is true, there it is not.
Second, do you by heritage mean "all things you have stolen from us",
for example, songs?
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Stop on by the Internet TeleCafe! telnet://telecafe.com:9000 :
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <karageor.11...@ucla.edu>, kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N. Karageorgis) writes:
|> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts18-15.wla.ts.ucla.edu
|> X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22654 soc.culture.europe:75382
|> >Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
|> >for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
|> >in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
|>
|>
|> It is both your ethno-national identity and your regional identity. In fact,
|> if you go by your favorite practice of equating RM with 'Macedonia', it is
|> triply important because it also denotes your civic-national identity.
I'm not sure you can, you just have lost your credits.
For me it is only, note ONLY, a metter of 'ethnic' identity (not national,
neither regional, or civic).
|>
|> What I can't understand and cannot swallow is you telling others what being
|> 'Macedonian' means to them, nay assert that it means 'nothing, except using it
|> for different purposes'. How do you know, and who are you to tell others what
|> their proclamation of being "X' means to them?
As I said above, you just have lost your credits. Did you forget how and why
bulgarian fascists invaded Macedonia (both Vardar and Aegean)? Oh,
I just forgot that you are your buddies sing the same song: if something
suits you then it is ok to use it, otehrwise just dump it away.
|> I thought we had agreed that
|> identites are EMIC categories, not ETIC; they are irreducibly subjective. If
|> you want others to accept you for who you are (and they should, although that
|> doesn't mean that they also have to accept your rationale for claiming to be
|> such) you probably should extend the same courtesy to others as well.
Of course. But probably you have not understand properly what I have written
above. Mr. Karadjov has been for a long time pretending to be something
he is not. After several months, he openly admited he is an ethnic Bulgarian.
If you were here (on a.n.m.) in the past when me and Mr. Karadjov discussed
these "ethnic" matters, I accepted his "feeling" (his ratioanle) that
he was "Macedonian Bulgarian". In principle, I have nothing against accepting
what he is, but you should admit a person cannot say today I'm "X", tomorrow
"Y", and after that who knows what, and then again change it, etc. etc.
Mr. Karageorgis, I've never claimed to be something else but Macedonian,
so I think it would be easier to accept that, than every day accepting
another "identity", wouldn't you agree? And if someone is doing it,
in this case pretending to be a Macedonian, we cannot do anything else
but to assume he is doing that on purpose; and knownig the fact that his
ancestors (I do not mean his direct anecstors, of course, I have no
proof of that, but Bulgarians) have used the same technique for ceratin
purposes, I could not conclude anything else but that what I did.
|> Your
|> problems with Mr. Karadjov are not what he says he is, but he claims he has a
|> right to do based on that. 'Macedonians' of the non-ethno-national variety
|> have the same kind of problem with SOME of the ethno-national Macedonians as
|> well.
I have no problems with Mr. Karadjov, but I think he has some problems
with his 'person'. [See above explanation]
|>
|> Noone is served by truing to tell others who they 'really' are or who they
|> 'should' feel they are.
I'm not doing that, Mr. Karageorgis; for me it is no problem to accept what/who
they are, but for "them" (I do not have to mention the Greek or Bulgarian
governments, do I). And I think you know that, but you probably forgot it.
Again, see the above explanation.
|> No ethno-national Macedonian has ever been convinced
|> by Greeks telling him/her that he/she is a 'Slavo-Paeonian', or by Bulgarians
|> telling him/her that he/she is 'Bulgarian'. And no Greek-Macedonian,
|> regardless of mother tongue, ancestry, degree of indigenousness, etc. has ever
|> been convinced by ethno-national Macedonians or Bulgarians telling him/her
|> that he/she is 'really' an ethnic 'macedonian' or an ethnic 'bulgarian'. The
|> 'discussions' to this effect in this group are a clear testament to the
|> bankruptcy of this strategy. Not only is it false, absolutely, it is also
|> strategically counter-productive and foolish.
Well I partially agree here. If you by 'Greek-Macedonias' mean 'Greeks'
living in (or originating from) Aegean Macedonia, I have no proof of the
opposite. But if you mean 'Macedonians' from the same place, I do have
proofs: they are ethnic Macedonians, and 'proud' citizens of the Greek state.
If we do not take into account this small remark, then we could agree.
What we should do now is to try to convince 'people on power'
to 'see' these things, to accept the "reality". Why do I write "reality"?
Regards,
Goce.
Goce Naumoski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
|> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
|> Date: 11 Jul 96 00:54:15 UTC
|> Lines: 92
|> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22658 soc.culture.europe:75385
[del]
|> : |> : |> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
|> : |> : |> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
|> : |>
|> : |> : ... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
|> : |> : Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
|> : |> : century only. Thank you.
|> : |>
|> : |> Can you extrapulate on this statement? It will be interesting!
|>
|> : Do I need to do that?
|>
|> But ofcourse you must. You are are acusing someone of doing something,
|> but you do not want to give specific. It is like shouting at someone "You
|> are a murderer" but whithout telling who was actualy murdered.
Ok, then, is it enough to say only BWI,BWII,WWI,WWII?
After all, I only asked something. Now again, are you going to use
all available means, including killing, to achieve your goals?
Please, answer.
[del]
|> And I am asking again - can you give us examples. Nothing more/nothing
|> less. No dust in the eyes of the oponents, no lengthly discusions - just
|> facts.
Ok, take any book about above mentioned words, under the condition it
is not originating from Bulgaria (or is written by a Bulgarian).
[del more stupid questions]
|> : |>
|> : |> And while we are still here - who are your ansestors - I would like
|> : |> names, MR. HISTORIAN!
|>
|> : Well, you are asking too much, telling you the name of my ancestors ;^
|>
|> : BTW, you are giving me too much credits. And if it is not that, but you are
|> : doing this only for the purpose of 'discovering' nick-names, it will not
|> : be far away from the line of your tutors ...
|>
|> What I am asking is names of people who were recognized by the world as
|> "pilars of the Macedonian ethnicity" from the time of Alexander until
|> 1945. People who any historian will know, people who can not be disputed
|> by anyone.
Brrrr ;-(, you are scaring me ... We are not so "blue blooded" as you are :-)
Above all, do I have to do this, to go 2-3 thousnds years back?
I do not need, I'll let the mythology to ours southern neighbours.
|>
|> I do not think that I ask to much. After all you have study "Macedonian
|> History" in highschool.
How did you know that :-) Do you maybe know what kind of shoes I wear
at this moment :-)) I think I have to be careful, 'big brother' is
probaly watching me :-)
BTW, I've studied "Istoriya SlavyanoBlgarska" :-)
|>
|> Georgi Karadjov
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
|> : Internet Direct (416)233-2999 1000 lines SLIP, 9600 - 33,600 bps :
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Goce.
Stavros N. Karageorgis
>|> I can certainly understand how for you being 'Macedonian' is doubly
>important.
>|> It is both your ethno-national identity and your regional identity. In fact,
>|> if you go by your favorite practice of equating RM with 'Macedonia', it is
>|> triply important because it also denotes your civic-national identity.
>I'm not sure you can, you just have lost your credits.
>For me it is only, note ONLY, a metter of 'ethnic' identity (not national,
>neither regional, or civic).
What do you mean I "just have lost [my] credits"? But, fine, Macedonian only
refers to your ethnic identity. Point taken.
>|>
>|> What I can't understand and cannot swallow is you telling others what being
>|> 'Macedonian' means to them, nay assert that it means 'nothing, except using
>it
>|> for different purposes'. How do you know, and who are you to tell others what
>|> their proclamation of being "X' means to them?
>As I said above, you just have lost your credits.
Whatever that means.
> Did you forget how and why
>bulgarian fascists invaded Macedonia (both Vardar and Aegean)? Oh,
>I just forgot that you are your buddies sing the same song: if something
>suits you then it is ok to use it, otehrwise just dump it away.
What are you talking about, Goce? I am sure Georgi would find it really
surprising that you think he and I are buddies . . . our debates on this and
other fora are 'legendary', and certainly not 'buddy-buddy'. I haven't
forgotten a single thing about the Bulgarians. This is ONE of the reasons why
I find the practice of some Greeks of refering to ethno-national (by
SELF-identification0 Macedonians in Greece 'Bulgarians' not only false, but
also entirely self-defeating.
>|> I thought we had agreed that
>|> identites are EMIC categories, not ETIC; they are irreducibly subjective. If
>|> you want others to accept you for who you are (and they should, although that
>|> doesn't mean that they also have to accept your rationale for claiming to be
>|> such) you probably should extend the same courtesy to others as well.
>Of course. But probably you have not understand properly what I have written
>above. Mr. Karadjov has been for a long time pretending to be something
>he is not. After several months, he openly admited he is an ethnic Bulgarian.
>If you were here (on a.n.m.) in the past when me and Mr. Karadjov discussed
>these "ethnic" matters, I accepted his "feeling" (his ratioanle) that
>he was "Macedonian Bulgarian".
Goce, I have been around a.n.m long enough to know that Karadjov has always
maintained that he is a Bulgarian Macedonian. He therefore feels both
Bulgarian and Macedonian. Only for him, unlike you, Macedonian does not refer
to his ethnicity, but to his regional identity.
. In principle, I have nothing against accepting
>what he is, but you should admit a person cannot say today I'm "X", tomorrow
>"Y", and after that who knows what, and then again change it, etc. etc.
He never did. He has always maintained that he is by ethnicity-nationality
Bulgarian and by region Macedonian.
>Mr. Karageorgis, I've never claimed to be something else but Macedonian,
>so I think it would be easier to accept that, than every day accepting
>another "identity", wouldn't you agree?
You are making things up. Mr. Karadjov has not been accepting another
"identity" every day. Even if he had, it's HIS identity, and that's the end of
it. That's not what bothers you. What bothers you, and rightly so, is that he
tries to tell YOU who YOU are, and what YOUR identity 'ought' to be.
>And if someone is doing it,
>in this case pretending to be a Macedonian, we cannot do anything else
>but to assume he is doing that on purpose; and knownig the fact that his
>ancestors (I do not mean his direct anecstors, of course, I have no
>proof of that, but Bulgarians) have used the same technique for ceratin
>purposes, I could not conclude anything else but that what I did.
Why this fascination with 'pretending' to be a Macedonian. He doesn't have to
pretend. He is a Macedonian by birth. Not an ETHNIC-NATIONAL Macedonian, but a
Macedonian nonetheless.
>|> Your
>|> problems with Mr. Karadjov are not what he says he is, but he claims he has a
>|> right to do based on that. 'Macedonians' of the non-ethno-national variety
>|> have the same kind of problem with SOME of the ethno-national Macedonians as
>|> well.
>I have no problems with Mr. Karadjov, but I think he has some problems
>with his 'person'. [See above explanation]
>|>
>|> Noone is served by trying to tell others who they 'really' are or who they
>|> 'should' feel they are.
>I'm not doing that, Mr. Karageorgis; for me it is no problem to accept what/who
>they are, but for "them" (I do not have to mention the Greek or Bulgarian
>governments, do I). And I think you know that, but you probably forgot it.
>Again, see the above explanation.
I don't follow you. And, for the nth time, quit telling ME what the Greek
government should do. I have but negligible (my vote) INFLUENCE on the Greek
government.
>|> No ethno-national Macedonian has ever been convinced
>|> by Greeks telling him/her that he/she is a 'Slavo-Paeonian', or by Bulgarians
>|> telling him/her that he/she is 'Bulgarian'. And no Greek-Macedonian,
>|> regardless of mother tongue, ancestry, degree of indigenousness, etc. has
>ever
>|> been convinced by ethno-national Macedonians or Bulgarians telling him/her
>|> that he/she is 'really' an ethnic 'macedonian' or an ethnic 'bulgarian'. The
>|> 'discussions' to this effect in this group are a clear testament to the
>|> bankruptcy of this strategy. Not only is it false, absolutely, it is also
>|> strategically counter-productive and foolish.
>Well I partially agree here. If you by 'Greek-Macedonians' mean 'Greeks'
>living in (or originating from) Aegean Macedonia, I have no proof of the
>opposite. But if you mean 'Macedonians' from the same place, I do have
>proofs: they are ethnic Macedonians, and 'proud' citizens of the Greek state.
I am not sure I follow the last sentence. Ethnic Macedonians are those who
self-ascribe as Macedonians by ethnicity. If they don't and they instead
self-ascribe as Greeks by ethnicity and nationality, and as Macedonians by
region, regardless of their mother tongue, their ancestry, the affiliation,
ancestry, mother tongue, etc. of their parents and ancestors, they are
precisely who they self-ascribe as. Neither you nor I can tell them what
ethnic identity they 'should' have.
>If we do not take into account this small remark, then we could
>agree. What we should do now is to try to convince 'people on power'
>to 'see' these things, to accept the "reality". Why do I write "reality"?
I don't know, why? Explain!
>Regards,
>Goce.
Likewise,
"Oh, the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person;
having neither to weigh thoughts nor measure words, but to pour them all
out, just as they are, chaff and grain together, knowing that a faithful
hand will take and sift them, keep what is worth keeping, and then, with
the breath of kindness, blow the rest away." T.S. Eliot
Stavros N. Karageorgis
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
karadjov
> <4rr0d1$i...@tuegate.tue.nl> <4rtdpu$p...@ci.ist.utl.pt> <4rtjfc$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <4rvpab$b...@ci.ist.utl.pt> <bd18-10079...@132.236.178.17>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: Stop crossposting from scb, Malinov. Stick to yuor BULGAR issues in
: your BULGAR newsgroup.
Why Borka? As some people have said, he is Bulgarian part of the "GREAT
MACEDONIAN NATION"!
Georgi Karadjov
Goce Naumoski
In article <4s1412$k...@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>, e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) writes:
|> In article <4rvktt$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl says...
|>
|> >In article <....compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
[del]
|> Please, supply us with some info from these Macedonian magazines.
If I have more free time and do not violate the copyright laws. On the
other hand, why don't you do it yourself, take a look ate "Delo",
"Makedonsko Sonce" and "Dnevnik", for example from the last two months.
|> Contrary to your statement we regard ourselves as a mixed people -
|> predominantly slavs, but also bulgars and remains of the ancient
|> balkan people like the thracians. Plus many other different peoples
|> settled during the centuries. That is to say, we DON'T think we
|> are a pure race (like some of you) and we DON'T have any problems
|> with this. Bulgars had governed the state in its early centuries
|> but later had been assimilated by the overwhelming slav majority.
Now, give me a quote of a single Macedonian who has ever said that
Macedonians are 'pure'? Actually the opposite, now and in the past,
Macedonians have always accepted other ethnic groups as their brothers,
e.g. the Ilinden uprising, and you are misusing it, by stating there
are (and were) no Macedonians.
On the other hand, I assume you know that the ethnic consciousness
is not only 'genetic material'. If you think so, then who knows,
you might discover you are a 'pure' one.
One last thing, how is it possible that you have something in
common with ancient Thracians, and we do not with ancient Macedonians?
[new bulgarian hypothesis deleted]
|> But I'll repeat - the issue who are one's racial/genetical ancestors
|> is not important, it could even lead to dangerous and fascist outcomes,
|> obvious is some of the makedonist postings.
Oh, you know the difference. Ok, then, are there now any ethnic Macedonians
or not? Are they the same with Bulgarians or not? And, what makes them
such?
[del]
|> In the central and western areas, 'bate' Goce. BTW the pamirian word
|> 'BAT/BACH' means 'an older brother', so you O'Gocevo Velichestvo Makedonsko
*******************************
|> should not use such bulgar words. Be careful in preserving your m-purity.
Thank you, thank you very much Sir, but it was not necessary :-)
Now, if you have heard of the works of Belchev, you'd know that
in Homer's time the also used a similar word 'bate'. Who has borrowed
from who: pamirian bulgars from homer, or the other way around?
A second question, why you just do not drop all foreign words: greek,
latin, arabic, etc. etc.?
|> >ancestors Bulgar-Tatars. Are you going to Bulgaria this summer?
|> >Well, then I'll be more precise after the summer, if you are still here on a.n.m.
|> >BTW, descendants of some other tribes, Brsjaci and Mijaci, are still
|> >alive and well.
|>
|> Please tell us right now. I'm sure we'll have alot of fun.
It is to hot now, it is not good for your helth. So, just go
and relax, then (I hope, notice, hope) that after the summer we
can have a little fun. For more fun, you will have to pay :-)))
|>
|> > Georgi Karadjov
|>
|> >Regards,
|> >Goce.
|>
|> The same to you,
|> Vassil Karloukovski.
... A Macedonian Bulgarian, I assume :-)
Regards,
Goce.
Jean Nail
On 11 Jul 1996, Goce Naumoski wrote:
> |> Vassil Karloukovski.
> ... A Macedonian Bulgarian, I assume :-)
So I guess that makes Goce, a Bulgarian Fyromian, right??
j.nail
p.s. What is he smiling for?? After all it probably hurt him to
notice people from Pirinsko, really consider themselves Macedonian
Bulgarians, and NOT fyromians.
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 11 Jul 96 00:07:41 UTC
: [del]
: |> : |> : |> Why stop thinking? That is the worst thing one can do! And I can not
: |> : |> : |> get lost whetever I go. Natural talent for finding my way around. Kak
: |> : |> : |> vika tatko mi - kato lovdjiski pes si.
: |> : |> : ************* *********************
: |> : |>
: |> : |> : I have never doubted :-))
: |> : |>
: |> : |> Doubted what?
: |>
: |>
: |> : That you are like "lovdzhiski pes" :-))) I thank God you are not like a wolf.
: |>
: |> You have to have in mind that for example a german shepard can also be a
: |> hunting dog, and a such bread of hunting dog will have no problems hunting
: |> wolfs.
: What stupid of me :-), I thought you were "obichen zagar" :-)))
: But now I know I was wrong, you are actually "pes so pedigre"
: from german race :-)
With pedigre yes, german - now. It was just an example, you can include
in this categorie, a huski, a baskervil, pit bull, grand dane, a wolf dog,
and some similar things.
karadjov
<31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqdv3$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rvjna$r...@tuegate.tue.nl
> <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4s2825$k...@tuegate.tue.nl>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> <31DD62BD...@westminster.ac.uk> <4rl412$b...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqdv3$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul8...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rvjna$r...@tuegate.tu
e.nl>|>
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 11 Jul 96 00:15:18 UTC
: |> Lines: 98
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22650 soc.culture.europe:75375
: |>
: |> Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
: |> Distribution:
: [del]
: |> : Ami, "bate" Gjorgji, jas sum si Makedonche od Makedonija; shto da pravam,
: |> : koga ne sum golem B'LGARIN kako tebe ;^)
: |>
: |> Pa nishto be bate. Si sedi pod nekoia sneka is si ia piuvai rakiata, i
: *****
: |> gi zakachai chupite.
: If you mean really "sneka", well thank you very much, it is nice, but if
: you mean "senka", well, "rakija ne pijam, a za chupi mi pomina vremeto" :-)
: I'll let my son do the job :-)))
: May I ask you what then "golemit B'lgari" like you are doing?
It is senka, and do not lie to us, nouthy boy - evry one drinks rakia. As
for chasing - if one stopes doing that, he/she is half in the grave.
For us, I can not sai. For ma i can - enjoing all of the above things when
there is time.
: |> : Of course not, but probably for you it is hard to comprehend that
: |> : you and me are NOT the same; we are humans, originate from the same
: |> : part of the Balkans, however, we are different. And, "bate" Gjorgji, that
: |> : small dfference is the MOST important one. If you didn't know, it is
: |> : called "ethnic consciousness", 'bate' Gjorgji.
: |> : I know you know it, but I think it is too hard for your stomach :-)
: |>
: |> Did I ever said I do not know it ? Long ago I have stated that anyone is
: |> entitled to his/her ethnic consciousnes. The problem here is that you are
: |> deniang this right to the people who you call your national herous.
:
: Wrong! The problem are your INTERPRETATIONS of their feelings, 'bate' Gjrogji.
I can not interpret feelings. I am stainmg facts - most of this facts are
writen records. Can you arque with this evidences?
: |> : For you, and those like you, being a 'Macedonian' (originating from
: |> : Macedonia, but having another ethnicity) means nothing, except using it
: |> : for different purposes (like it your ancestors have done several times
: |> : in this century only). For me, 'bate' Gjorgji, it is a matter of LIFE.
: |>
: |> It isa not a matter of life for you - it is matter of satisfaing your
: |> personal belives and ideological opinions. Nothing wrong with it. As for
: |> the rest of us - "Macedonian" means a lot - it defines our heritage.
: If "Macedonian" defines your heritage, why then you (and others)
: deny that, for example, your language is derivative of Macedonian,
: but you insist it is the othe rway around?
: You cannot have it both, here it is true, there it is not.
Because it is the other way around. We do not speack the language of
Alexnder Makedonski or his father Filip. The language we speack is
derived from the common language of the Slavs all over Europe unitl the
9-10th century, and language that was first formalized in the Kingdom of
Bulgaria. Again, can you dispute that?
: Second, do you by heritage mean "all things you have stolen from us",
: for example, songs?
And which are these songs? This statement is simply ridiculosu. If
people are singing the same songs, have the same customes, eat the same
foods, have the same belives., then what is the conclusion of their roots?
karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Lines: 152
: |> Xref: tuegate.tue.nl alt.news.macedonia:22653 soc.culture.europe:75381
: |>
: |> <Edina1996Jul4...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rkg3s$4...@weever.mel.dit.csiro.au> <Edina1996Jul7...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com> <4rqehn$a...@tuegate.tue.nl> <Edina1996Jul9...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>
<4rv|>
: |>
: |> ktt$r...@tuegate.tue.nl>
: |> Distribution:
: |>
: [del]
: |> : Of course I do not; politics has been and is involved in the Balkans
: |> : constantly. Even in 1990, and even today. However, the problem with you is
: |> : that you cannot grasp that Macedonians have fought for free and independent
: |> : Macedonia decades and even centuries before 1945. Let me again use
: |> : a sentence from yesterday, "when my g-g-father and my g-g-g-father fought
: |> : for the freedom of Macedonia, Tito was in the balls of his father. Stalin
: |> : and Dimitrov also." I hope this will help you solve your problem.
: |>
: |> "Have fought" - I cahlenge this statement! I call it insubstential.
: |> Can you prove me wrong by providing some references to any such events
: |> which are acounted for as "the doing of the ethnic Macedonians". Even
: |> one. one single event. That is all I ask for.
: Ok, for example, in the book about "Dejan vojvoda", plenty of them.
: There are also references to bulgarian sources.
: Oh, does it have to bear the sign of the 'bulgarian government' in order
: to be valid?
So tell us more -who did tehy fought, what do we know about them, what did
they said or write, and other such things.
Georgi Karadjov
: PS. What happend to my other questions? Did you have no time to
: answer, or you are not able to answer them?
The questions are.....
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karadjov
Goce Naumoski (go...@win.tue.nl) wrote:
: In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>, gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) writes:
: |> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
: |> Date: 11 Jul 96 00:54:15 UTC
: [del]
: |> : |> : |> Being a Bulgarian, gives the gentlman in question one extreamly importan
: |> : |> : |> right -the right to deffend his heritage from people like you!
: |> : |>
: |> : |> : ... using all available means, and even to kill if necessary, right?
: |> : |> : Thank you Mr. Karadjov, we have seen this several times in this
: |> : |> : century only. Thank you.
: |> : |>
: |> : |> Can you extrapulate on this statement? It will be interesting!
: |>
: |> : Do I need to do that?
: |>
: |> But ofcourse you must. You are are acusing someone of doing something,
: |> but you do not want to give specific. It is like shouting at someone "You
: |> are a murderer" but whithout telling who was actualy murdered.
: Ok, then, is it enough to say only BWI,BWII,WWI,WWII?
: After all, I only asked something. Now again, are you going to use
: all available means, including killing, to achieve your goals?
: Please, answer.
Again you are just giving us a refernce to some events, but no specific
things. Again - give us specifics, do not trow dust in our eyes.
: [del]
: |> And I am asking again - can you give us examples. Nothing more/nothing
: |> less. No dust in the eyes of the oponents, no lengthly discusions - just
: |> facts.
: Ok, take any book about above mentioned words, under the condition it
: is not originating from Bulgaria (or is written by a Bulgarian).
Let's see - John Reed, not a bulgarian, the Carnegie Commision Reports (
composed by non Bulgarians), and almost any other book I know about - they
all give accounts of what hapen, but only the books published in Skopje do
agree with you on this specifics.
: [del more stupid questions]
: |> : |>
: |> : |> And while we are still here - who are your ansestors - I would like
: |> : |> names, MR. HISTORIAN!
: |>
: |> : Well, you are asking too much, telling you the name of my ancestors ;^
: |>
: |> : BTW, you are giving me too much credits. And if it is not that, but you are
: |> : doing this only for the purpose of 'discovering' nick-names, it will not
: |> : be far away from the line of your tutors ...
: |>
: |> What I am asking is names of people who were recognized by the world as
: |> "pilars of the Macedonian ethnicity" from the time of Alexander until
: |> 1945. People who any historian will know, people who can not be disputed
: |> by anyone.
: Brrrr ;-(, you are scaring me ... We are not so "blue blooded" as you are :-)
: Above all, do I have to do this, to go 2-3 thousnds years back?
: I do not need, I'll let the mythology to ours southern neighbours.
Hey, it is you that is claiming continium and history that spans 3000
years. It is only just for you to proved us with some examples from this
glorious "history".
: |>
: |> I do not think that I ask to much. After all you have study "Macedonian
: |> History" in highschool.
: How did you know that :-) Do you maybe know what kind of shoes I wear
: at this moment :-)) I think I have to be careful, 'big brother' is
: probaly watching me :-)
I know from experience, and accounts by realtives from the other side of
the borther.
: BTW, I've studied "Istoriya SlavyanoBlgarska" :-)
Good for you!
Boris Docevski
In article <Edina1996Jul1...@news3.idirect.com.compulink.com>,
gkar...@idirect.com (karadjov) wrote:
Drn, drn, jarinja...