UN: RE: MORE ANTI-MACEDONIAN LIES
Mike Vanier
>From: dem...@phaethon.intranet.gr (Demetre Koumanakos)
>Organization: Intracom sa
>Message-ID: <244utk$g...@helios.intranet.gr>
>>Well the is one independent Republic of Macedonia and one Province of
>>Macedonia
>>in the Athens Republic what's wrong with that? Nobody's confused, when
>>US President Clinton said he was sending troops to Macedonia, they landed
>>in Skopje not Thesalonika...
>First off all try to get your facts right, there is no such thing as an
>Athens Republic, but a Hellenic Republic.
>Second, what the hell has the US troop in Scopja have anything to do with
>the Macedonia problem ????
>You are more confused than you like to admit, try to face your confusion
>and stop this nonesence...
>Demetre
Demetre, let's get a few things straight. You don't seem to have
any problem referring to Greece as the Hellenic Republic, yet your
connection to the ancient Hellenic tribes is no closer than our
connection to the ancient Macedonian tribes. Greece's intense
fantasy campaign can't change that. Your the one who appears to
be confused.
Furthermore, I watched as President Clinton spoke on CNN committing
American ground forces to Macedonia. He said he was sending
troops to Macedonia to discourage any spread of the current conflict.
Demetre, the President didn't refer to Macedonia as Scopja but by its
proper name, Macedonia, and that's where the troops are currently
stationed. Am I to assume that you are more intelligent,
or better informed than the President of the United States?
Highly, unlikely!
Scopja is the euphamism for Macedonia currently used by the Greek state.
It is intended to be a derogatory term, but for most people in the
world, including Macedonians, it is quite meaningless. The use of
this term does serve to highlight one important thing, and that is
Greece's institutionalized prejudice, and repression of its
legitimate Macedonian minority.
I thank you for highlighting this injustice.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
> From: som...@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
> Subject: Re: More Anti-Macedonian lies
> Message-ID: <1993Aug8....@enea.se>
> Anastasios Kotsikonas (ta...@cs.bu.edu) writes:
> >Your generalizations are of the moron-type at best. Either speak
> >with facts (and include specifics about me personally since I
> >am a Greek "usenetter") or do silence that big mouth of yours
> >once and for all.
> So he wants to disprove my sentiment that for Greek netters truth
> is not a virtue... Well:
I believe your sentiment is fairly self evident. The majority of
Greek netters go out of their way to prove it. Truth, in Greece,
is a relative thing. The world just doesn't understand how the
poor Greeks are hard done by. It's tough, but we are told that
only Greeks can really know the truth.
> >And this to all Greeks reading this: I am going to start compiling
> >a list of names and countries of origin of foreigners on this
> >newsgroup siding with Skopje and those who are misusing the
> >Greek word "Macedonia". This list will be periodically sent to
> >the Department of Foreign Affairs in Athens, with the
> >suggestion that these people be denied entry to Greece if ever
> >wish to visit, on the grounds of threatening national security.
This is so typically Greek. Will you also continue publishing
their names and addresses in the Greek press? This technique has
been used for so long, that virtually every Aegean Macedonian has
already been blacklisted in one way or the other. No family has been
left untouched.
I use the word Macedonia to mean the nation to the north of Greece
and south of Serbia. I use Pirin to refer to that region of Macedonia
in Bulgaria and Aegae to refer to that region of Macedonia where
my grandparents are from, since 1913 part of Greece. I use the term
Macedonian to refer to the Slavic people who have been living in all
the regions of Macedonia for at least the last fourteen centuries.
Since most of the people in the world use these terms in the same
way as I do, I beleive I shall not be alone on your list. Let me
add that using these terms appropriately does not threaten your
national security, but rather your national fantasy.
> Well, that leaves us to choices:
> 1) This guy is completely paranoid, and thinks because we sympathize
> with Macedonia, we will undermine the Greek state.
> Or 2) He will send a bunch of lies to the Greek foreign department
> about our alleged subversive activity.
> Erland Sommarskog
Lying and threatening appear to have become national virtues in
Greece. This idiot will probably get a medal.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
>From: som...@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
>Subject: Re: More Anti-Macedonian lies
>Message-ID: <1993Aug8....@enea.se>
>>>Panagiotis Lolonis (lol...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) writes:
>You fail to understand the analogy? Well you said:
>>>You cannot speak a slavic language and name it with something that,
>>>from what we know, is a Greek dialect. This is inaccurate and
>>>confusing.
Excuse me Panagiotis, but YOU may consider the Ancient Macedons to
have spoken a HELLENIC dialect, but that has NEVER been shown to
be true. What is far more confusing, and easily disproven
is the Modern Greek claim, that those people now living in Greece
are the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Since people don't
confuse the ancient "Greeks" with those people currently living
in Greece, you should feel quite safe that people will not confuse
Modern Macedonians with their ancient non-Hellenic counterparts.
>>>However, the term "Macedonian" is desired by two distinct ethnic groups:
>>>Macedonian Greeks and Skopjeans.
Just what the hell is a "Macedonian Greek". Is that like an
Athenian Greek or a Spartan Greek????
Is this so called "Macedonian Greek" not a Greek?
Is one parent Greek and the other Macedonian?
Surely you are aware that Macedonians speak Macedonian whereas
Greeks speak Greek. What language would a "Macedonian Greek"
speak? Is there a separate "Greek Macedonian" language which
is neither Greek nor Macedonian?
>>>The question is: Which group has a right to use it?
>BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH!
I beleive that this would cause confusion. Since Macedonians
have always referred to themselves as Macedonian, and Greeks
have always referred to themselves as Greeks, I see no good
reason for Greeks to all of a sudden start calling themselves
Macedonian.
I can understand when someone calls themselves an ethnic
Greek from Aegean Macedonia, but I think it's deliberately
confusing for an ethnic Greek to call himself a Macedonian.
>>>If Skpojeans use it, then many people would think (by default) that
>>>they are ethnically related to ancient Macedonians, which is false,
No more false than modern Greeks claiming to be descended from the
Ancient Hellenes. Or is that last weeks fantasy? This weeks fantasy
is that the current residents of Greece are descended from the
Ancient Macedonians. How many soap bubbles can you blow in a day
Panagiotis?
>And same of course the same applies if Macedonians in Greece use the name.
>If this is the logic, there should simply be a ban of reusing ancient
>names.
A Macedonian in Greece is still a Macedonian, just as a Greek in
Macedonia is still a Greek.
>>>The question that I have is: Are there any examples in History in which
>>>two distinct ethnic groups, living close to each other, competed for the
>>>same name to identify themselves?
>I don't know, but the Macedonian case is not such an example. Or are
>the Greek Macedonians a ethnic group, distinct from the rest of the
>Greeks? We have a case of a group vs. a sub-group, and that's slightly
>different.
>Erland Sommarskog
You've hit the nail right on the head!
Lubi Uzunovski
Erland Sommarskog
>Just what the hell is a "Macedonian Greek". Is that like an
>Athenian Greek or a Spartan Greek????
>Is this so called "Macedonian Greek" not a Greek?
>Is one parent Greek and the other Macedonian?
Don't be silly. A Macedonian Greek is obviously a Greek person
living, or coming from, the Greek province of Macedonia.
>>>>The question is: Which group has a right to use it?
>
>>BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH! BOTH!
>
>I beleive that this would cause confusion. Since Macedonians
>have always referred to themselves as Macedonian, and Greeks
>have always referred to themselves as Greeks, I see no good
>reason for Greeks to all of a sudden start calling themselves
>Macedonian.
Well, if Cretans start to call themselves Macedonian then there
is something fishy going on. However, just like people from
Texas call themselves Texans to oppose them from Californians,
Greeks from Macedonia (the Greek province) call themselves
Macedonians to oppose them from Thracians. What's wrong with
that?
But there is not much need for confusion. With normal usage,
the two conversations below are both unambiguous:
- Is he Thessalian? - Is he Italian?
- No, he is Macedonian. - No, he is Macedonian.
If, in the case to the left the person happened to be a Greek
citizen, but a Slavic Macedonian by ethnicity, we would have
to say that explcitly if we wanted to make that clear. And,
in the case to the right, if the person is really a Greek
from Macedonia,
>>I don't know, but the Macedonian case is not such an example. Or are
>>the Greek Macedonians a ethnic group, distinct from the rest of the
>>Greeks? We have a case of a group vs. a sub-group, and that's slightly
>>different.
>
>You've hit the nail right on the head!
Then it is really sad that you completely failed to understand what I
was saying.
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Mike Vanier
>Subject: Re: More Anti-Macedonian lies
>>In article <1993Aug10.1...@cs.wisc.edu>,
>>rcmo...@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu(Robertc. Moldenhauer) writes:
>>FYRoM's use of the name "Republic of Macedonia" doesn't imply anything
>No, the name "Republic of Macedonia" by its very own definition
>(defined by the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1941 - approved by Stalin
>through COMINTERN, 1943) implies territorial claims and talks about
>unification of the entire geographic area of Macedonia under the new
>Republic. Could someone post the COMINTERN decision?
If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with some
solid evidence. A fifty year old communist document no longer holds
water. Why is Greece supposedly afraid of a country one fifth its size
possessing virtually no military capability? The argument that you and
others present is simply not credible.
The only time Macedonia was not officially referred to by that name was
after its partitioning in 1913 until the end of the Second World War.
Why has Greece started to complain about the name at this late stage?
Could there be an ulterior motive? There is evidence to support the
argument that Greece, with the aid of Serbia has territorial
pretentions on the Republic of Macedonia. It is common knowledge that
Mitsotakis and Milosevic publicly discussed exactly that? Who knows
what treaties were signed in private. Could this be the real reason for
Greece's intense misinformation campaign against Macedonia and the
Macedonian people?
>If it was their name (which is not - see Hammond, 1989) I would agree
>that nobody has the right to ask them change their name.
N.G.L. Hammond, the darling of the Greeks, presents only one point of
view. Other equally eminent historians have come up with different
conclusions. Is their research of no use since it doesn't support the
current Greek propaganda?
>BTW, you seem to assume that you have the right to chage my name from
>Macedonian to Greek Macedonian. And, I have not seen anybody objecting
>their attempts to change the name of Macedonia (where my family has
>been living for several generations) to Aegean Macedonia.
Excuse me Mr. Michailidis, but the term Aegean Macedonia is not new.
It refers to maritime Macedonia. You're obviously very recently in the
land to make a gaffe of that magnitude. Since your family has only been
living in Aegean Macedonia for a few generations, then just where do you
come from and what is your ethnicity, since it so obviously is not
Macedonian. The only people new to Aegean Macedonia are the Prosvigi.
Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, who was originally a
Greek speaker from Turkey?
>> Should Greek Macedonia wish to become independent it could be handled
>>in the same way as the Congo was when there were two Congos, with
>>an additional word or a different order. So far as I can see the only
>>ones demanding exclusive rights to the name are Greeks...
>You are wrong, it has been pointed out in the net that there is a
>Macedonia in Ohio, USA, there is also the Bulgarian province of
>Macedonia I think this is enough to counter your statement. It also
>seems that FYROM demads exclusive rights of the actual name Macedonia
>by assigning labels to the people who rightfully carry that name.
If you do not have any problem with others legitimately using the name
Macedonia to describe themselves and their land, then what are you
balling about? In the 150 odd years that Greece has been around,
Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
your roots are from Turkey. You now find yourself living in Aegean
Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas. How is
it that there is now a new ethnic group in Greece, going by the name
of "Greek-Macedonians?" Through what miracle of history do you
attribute this, or is this nothing more than transparent Greek
propaganda? Thanks to Mitsotakis' arrogant position, and the venom
spewed by those like yourself, the plight of the Aegean Macedonians is
becoming known.
Lubi Uzunovski
Antonis Michailidis
> >a...@csc.liv.ac.uk (Antonis Michailidis)
> >Subject: Re: More Anti-Macedonian lies
> >Message-ID: <CBpLv...@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk> writes,
>
> >>In article <1993Aug10.1...@cs.wisc.edu>,
> >>rcmo...@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu(Robertc. Moldenhauer) writes:
> >>FYRoM's use of the name "Republic of Macedonia" doesn't imply anything
>
> >No, the name "Republic of Macedonia" by its very own definition
> >(defined by the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1941 - approved by Stalin
> >through COMINTERN, 1943) implies territorial claims and talks about
> >unification of the entire geographic area of Macedonia under the new
> >Republic. Could someone post the COMINTERN decision?
>
> If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
> territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with some
> solid evidence. A fifty year old communist document no longer holds
> water.
I presented solid evidence (COMINTERN decision)!!! Could you please point
out to us an official goverment document that shows that the COMINTERN decision
is not valid anymore? When the COMINTERN decision has been declared invalid?
Why then your goverment picked up the very same name which as you claimed you
do not consider appropriate anymore? You need to come up with solid evidence.
> Why is Greece supposedly afraid of a country one fifth its size
> possessing virtually no military capability?
It doesn't. But this does not have to do anything with the Skopjean objectives.
The Skopjean goverment has territorial claims against Greece and in particular
Macedonia. We could either be afraid of this or not. It just happens that
Greece is not afraid of Skopje. What is certain is that
your anti-Macedonian policy can cause some reaction, but you cannot argue on
the existence of this policy judging from the kind of reaction it causes.
> The argument that you and
> others present is simply not credible.
Evidence?
> The only time Macedonia was not officially referred to by that name was
> after its partitioning in 1913 until the end of the Second World War.
Open any book in any library, then you may be able to realize that Macedonia
is referred to by that name for more than 3000 years. If you are talking about
Skopje then you are lying. I am using one of *your* references to show that
Skopje was not considered part of Macedonia by your own people. Read:
F. Papazoglou, "LES CITES MACEDONIEN A L'EPOQUE ROMAINE",
published in Skopje in 1957.
In this book, there is a map which clearly shows that Skopje is not part of
Macedonia.
> Why has Greece started to complain about the name at this late stage?
> Could there be an ulterior motive? There is evidence to support the
> argument that Greece, with the aid of Serbia has territorial
> pretentions on the Republic of Macedonia.
Then why do you so diligently hide it?
> It is common knowledge that
> Mitsotakis and Milosevic publicly discussed exactly that?
Evidence?
> Who knows
> what treaties were signed in private.
Who knows really? Most likely nobody not even the people who "signed" them. You
see some people do know to keep secrets.
> Could this be the real reason for
> Greece's intense misinformation campaign against Macedonia and the
> Macedonian people?
What is the real reason of the Skopjean campaign (for 50 years) against
Macedonia and the Macedonian people? Maybe *reading* COMINTERN decision would
refresh your memory.
>
> >If it was their name (which is not - see Hammond, 1989) I would agree
> >that nobody has the right to ask them change their name.
>
> N.G.L. Hammond, the darling of the Greeks, presents only one point of
> view. Other equally eminent historians have come up with different
> conclusions. Is their research of no use since it doesn't support the
> current Greek propaganda?
Can you point out to us their other research and in which way they disagree
with Hammond on the particular point that I mentioned? If you were honest
enough you could have presented evidence from that research that you are so
keen to call on, but at the same time so unhesitating to hide.
>
> >BTW, you seem to assume that you have the right to chage my name from
> >Macedonian to Greek Macedonian. And, I have not seen anybody objecting
> >their attempts to change the name of Macedonia (where my family has
> >been living for several generations) to Aegean Macedonia.
>
> Excuse me Mr. Michailidis, but the term Aegean Macedonia is not new.
> It refers to maritime Macedonia.
Why are you bullshitiing Mr. OUZO-novski? The term Aegean Macedonia is an
invention of the communist policy that you are so keen to reject when it suits
your misconceptions. If you open *any* history book you will see that the
geographic area which you call "Aegean Macedonia" is called just Macedonia.
And more importantly Macedonia is the name that the Macedonians use for that
part of land for more than 3000 years.
Kastoria - maritime Macedonia????? What a twisted mind!
> You're obviously very recently in the
> land to make a gaffe of that magnitude. Since your family has only been
> living in Aegean Macedonia for a few generations, then just where do you
> come from and what is your ethnicity, since it so obviously is not
> Macedonian. The only people new to Aegean Macedonia are the Prosvigi.
> Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, who was originally a
> Greek speaker from Turkey?
Ha,ha,ha. I said that my family is living in Macedonia (more precisely,
Nestorio, Kastoria, North-Western Macedonia) for *several* generations and
not *few* as you might wish. In fact I cannot remember anyone in my family
mentioning that we have been living in any other place. But I can safely
*trace* my family back for several generations (five or six - more than 150
years) without having to do any kind of extensive (not even preliminary)
search. You see, I preferred to present factual information unbiased by my
emotions. My family is not new in Macedonia. It is likely that it has roots
a hell deeper than the ones which are apparent. But still we are Macedonians
a hell longer than anyone in Skopje fancies to consider himself recently.
You seemed puzzled from my surname. The suffix -idis does not necessarily
implies a Pontios origin, in fact it can be found anywhere in Greece.
In my case my father is Pontios and my mother (Artemis) is Macedonian. So my
family was living in Macedonia (and carried that name) before the emergence
of the so called Macedonian Question in the political developments. At the
time when your family considered themselves most likely Bulgarians and
certainly not Macedonians, quite naturally of course.
>
> >> Should Greek Macedonia wish to become independent it could be handled
> >>in the same way as the Congo was when there were two Congos, with
> >>an additional word or a different order. So far as I can see the only
> >>ones demanding exclusive rights to the name are Greeks...
>
> >You are wrong, it has been pointed out in the net that there is a
> >Macedonia in Ohio, USA, there is also the Bulgarian province of
> >Macedonia I think this is enough to counter your statement. It also
> >seems that FYROM demads exclusive rights of the actual name Macedonia
> >by assigning labels to the people who rightfully carry that name.
>
> If you do not have any problem with others legitimately using the name
> Macedonia to describe themselves and their land, then what are you
> balling about?
I have a problem when someone is exploiting my name for political causes
against me.
> In the 150 odd years that Greece has been around,
> Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
Some of the Greeks for more than 3000 years call themselves Macedonians...
>
> Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
> your roots are from Turkey.
Unfortunately for you Mr. Ouzo-novski I am a Macedonian. It is you that you
are not Macedonian as far as blood, culture, and history are concerned. Of
course you and your goverment (that systematically stripped you off your
culture and history for the last 50 years) knows that very well.
> You now find yourself living in Aegean
> Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas.
I live in North-Werstern Macedonia. This is how it was called by your ancestors
who were lucky enough not to suffer the mass brainwashing that you have
experienced.
> How is
> it that there is now a new ethnic group in Greece, going by the name
> of "Greek-Macedonians?"
It is not an ethnic group. It is a group of Greeks who naturally inheritted
the name Macedonia. You should have known that if you have ever been in
Macedonia.
> Through what miracle of history do you
> attribute this, or is this nothing more than transparent Greek
> propaganda?
The only miracle of history is that some Slavs claim kinship with ancient
Macedonians.
> Thanks to Mitsotakis' arrogant position, and the venom
> spewed by those like yourself, the plight of the Aegean Macedonians is
> becoming known.
FYI, my family belongs to the people that your propaganda calls
"Aegean Macedonians". You have no right whatsoever to talk on my behalf.
It is the people called by you as "Aegean Macedonians" or in the past
"slavophones" that will *never* allow our name Macedonia to be exploited
by you.
> Lubi Uzunovski
Antonis Michailidis
Maced*n
Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998)
For all of you Greeks talking a lot of trash.....Why aginst Macedonia now..
Here I am talking the REAL MACEDONIA...The Republic of MAcedonia with Skopje
as it's CAPITAL..Why didn't you people wage trashy campaign against us
MAcedonians when we were part of the powerfull Yugoslavia..You know, you would
have been burned to ashes in a matter of hours...Now that Macedonia is small
and powerless you find it very joyfull to pick on it...
A.T. Fear
: I presented solid evidence (COMINTERN decision)!!! Could you please point
: out to us an official goverment document that shows that the COMINTERN decision
: is not valid anymore?
Times do change you know - should we interpret present Russian actions
with reference to the Third International??? What you need to produce is
*contemporary* evidence that the Republic of Macedonia has expansionist
aims. This has been singularly lacking in any posting supporting the
Greek government's stance, all we get are assertions with no supporting
evidence at all. The very fact that you have to rely on this sort of
MaCarthyite stuff shows the weakness of your case.
: F. Papazoglou, "LES CITES MACEDONIEN A L'EPOQUE ROMAINE",
: published in Skopje in 1957.
: In this book, there is a map which clearly shows that Skopje is not part of
: Macedonia.
Sadly I don't know this book. However we shouldn't be surprised by the
above as the Roman province of Macedonia bears no resemblance to the
area later referred to by that name as such this proves nothing at all.
Moreover we ought to be careful about selective historical geography as
this way we can prove that all that of the Balkan peninsula know called
Hellas has no right to that name apart from a little bit in Thessaly
(Homeric geography). Times change you know. I've yet to come across a
C19 book which doesn't say Skopje isn't in Macedonia - were all these
authors Titoists before the birth of Tito???
: > >BTW, you seem to assume that you have the right to chage my name from
: > >Macedonian to Greek Macedonian. And, I have not seen anybody objecting
: > >their attempts to change the name of Macedonia (where my family has
: > >been living for several generations) to Aegean Macedonia.
A bit rich coming from someone refuses to allow Macedonians who aren't
Greeks to call themselves Macedonians at all don't you think? Especially
you might think when the majority of the Greek population of Aegean
Macedonia is a plantation population which postdates the nonGreek population.
Andy
Plamen Bliznakov
>
>For all of you Greeks talking a lot of trash.....Why aginst Macedonia now..
>Here I am talking the REAL MACEDONIA...The Republic of MAcedonia with Skopje
>as it's CAPITAL..
Ironically, Ilija is going into the same extreme as his opponents :
trying to get the copyright for the name Macedonia only for a part
of it, and claiming that this is *THE REAL* one. The whole _geographic
region_ of Macedonia is such a mixture of nationalities, cultures,
and history, that different people living in different countries
have all a legitimate right to be called Macedonians.
>Why didn't you people wage trashy campaign against us
>MAcedonians when we were part of the powerfull Yugoslavia..You know, you would
>have been burned to ashes in a matter of hours...Now that Macedonia is small
>and powerless you find it very joyfull to pick on it...
I doubt very much that Greece would have been "burned to ashes in a
matter of hours" by "powerfull Yugoslavia". Sounds like a childish argument.
Just like kids from a kindergarten saying : "But I have a big brother,
he is in the army and has a big gun !"
And I doubt this was the reason not "to pick on" the Republic of Macedonia.
Rather, everything was under control from Belgrade, the status quo
was ensured. However, in a time when new countries appear, and the
borders in Europe get changed (e.g., unification of Germany) people
get nervous about the status quo and their own borders.
Best regards,
Plamen
Panagiotis Lolonis
>For all of you Greeks talking a lot of trash.....Why aginst Macedonia now..
>Here I am talking the REAL MACEDONIA...The Republic of MAcedonia with Skopje
>as it's CAPITAL..Why didn't you people wage trashy campaign against us
>MAcedonians when we were part of the powerfull Yugoslavia..You know, you would
>have been burned to ashes in a matter of hours...Now that Macedonia is small
>and powerless you find it very joyfull to pick on it...
For your information, Greeks had protested several times about the practices
and policies of the x-Yugoslav politicians. In one occasion,
(a formal dinner in Belgrade) the then Greek Prime Minister reacted very inte-
sively to comments about the "Macedonian" question. In another occasion,
(a dinner in Australia) the then President of Greece Christos Sartzetakis
... left the room when the host (Prime Minister of Australia) talk about
the same issue. The Australian Prime Minister apologized for the event.
I agree with you that Greece should have voiced her objections louder.
She did not do that because it would have been an interference in the
internal affairs of another country (Yugoslavia).
By the way, Greeks do not find "joyfull to pick on a powerless country" .
Simply, they beleive that that country should apply for international
recognition under a name that is more representative and appropriate.
Also, the constitution of that country should guarantee that the rights
of all minorities are respected and that the stability in the region
is preserved. Once those criteria are satisfied, that country will be
welcome in the international community.
Best regards,
Panos Lolonis
U. of Iowa
Georgios Tsoukalas
Stuff deleted ...
>Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
>
>Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
>your roots are from Turkey. You now find yourself living in Aegean
>Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas. How is
>it that there is now a new ethnic group in Greece, going by the name
>of "Greek-Macedonians?" Through what miracle of history do you
>attribute this, or is this nothing more than transparent Greek
>propaganda? Thanks to Mitsotakis' arrogant position, and the venom
>spewed by those like yourself, the plight of the Aegean Macedonians is
>becoming known.
>
Quite an imagination ... simply put .... census carried out before the
turn of the century never found a "macedonian" nation. They did find Greeks
though way into FYROM .. So it's a pretty simple guess as to who has
a better chance of existance. One's for sure. Macedonian nation is
nowere to be found. Greeks though were quite common. That's why you have
sities like Skopia with Greek names and ofcourse Monastiri (I don't
know what you have named it know) was entirely a BIG greek City
... were did they go ???
Oh Agean Macedonians ... If the Turks can kill so many of
their minorities and those minorities can still speek up, then
Greeks must be very efficient to supress hundreds of thousands, a significant
persenntage of the population and still make it at the Top of
the Amnesty International countries for respecting minorities...
So eith Greeks are surpressing them .... sure .. or they are not
there.
Gee the truth hurts :)
George Tsoukalas
PS: What happened to the Greeks that were there before the turn of the
century ??
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Georgios Tsoukalas
>>a...@csc.liv.ac.uk (Antonis Michailidis)
>>Subject: Re: More Anti-Macedonian lies
>>Message-ID: <CBpLv...@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk> writes,
>
>>>In article <1993Aug10.1...@cs.wisc.edu>,
>>>rcmo...@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu(Robertc. Moldenhauer) writes:
>>>FYRoM's use of the name "Republic of Macedonia" doesn't imply anything
>
>>No, the name "Republic of Macedonia" by its very own definition
>>(defined by the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1941 - approved by Stalin
>>through COMINTERN, 1943) implies territorial claims and talks about
>>unification of the entire geographic area of Macedonia under the new
>>Republic. Could someone post the COMINTERN decision?
>
>If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
>territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with some
>solid evidence. A fifty year old communist document no longer holds
>water. Why is Greece supposedly afraid of a country one fifth its size
>possessing virtually no military capability? The argument that you and
>others present is simply not credible.
Geee, you must be blind and deaf. there are hundreds of
quotes especialy from the opposition in parlament about the
status of the northern province of macedonia.
>
>The only time Macedonia was not officially referred to by that name was
>after its partitioning in 1913 until the end of the Second World War.
Macedonia as you put it has never been called that. Only
the province has been called that.
>Why has Greece started to complain about the name at this late stage?
>Could there be an ulterior motive? There is evidence to support the
>argument that Greece, with the aid of Serbia has territorial
>pretentions on the Republic of Macedonia. It is common knowledge that
>Mitsotakis and Milosevic publicly discussed exactly that? Who knows
>what treaties were signed in private. Could this be the real reason for
>Greece's intense misinformation campaign against Macedonia and the
>Macedonian people?
Offcourse you regect the almost official position in Skopjia
but The Greek official position that Boarders should not change under any\
circumstances you ignore !!.
>
>>If it was their name (which is not - see Hammond, 1989) I would agree
>>that nobody has the right to ask them change their name.
>
>N.G.L. Hammond, the darling of the Greeks, presents only one point of
>view. Other equally eminent historians have come up with different
>conclusions. Is their research of no use since it doesn't support the
>current Greek propaganda?
>
>>BTW, you seem to assume that you have the right to chage my name from
>>Macedonian to Greek Macedonian. And, I have not seen anybody objecting
>>their attempts to change the name of Macedonia (where my family has
>>been living for several generations) to Aegean Macedonia.
>
>Excuse me Mr. Michailidis, but the term Aegean Macedonia is not new.
>It refers to maritime Macedonia. You're obviously very recently in the
>land to make a gaffe of that magnitude. Since your family has only been
>living in Aegean Macedonia for a few generations, then just where do you
>come from and what is your ethnicity, since it so obviously is not
>Macedonian. The only people new to Aegean Macedonia are the Prosvigi.
>Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, who was originally a
>Greek speaker from Turkey?
>
the name Agean Macedonia was "imposed on the Greek macedonia,
it's not an accepted definition.
You assume that his family has been living in the regeon for a few
generations. I have not heard him say so. It's probably something that
you'd like to be the case with all the Greeks. The truth is that
if you check the census from any source you'd see that the Greeks
were always present all the way to Skopjia, but there was never any
nationality by the name of macedonien.
>>> Should Greek Macedonia wish to become independent it could be handled
>>>in the same way as the Congo was when there were two Congos, with
>>>an additional word or a different order. So far as I can see the only
>>>ones demanding exclusive rights to the name are Greeks...
>
>>You are wrong, it has been pointed out in the net that there is a
>>Macedonia in Ohio, USA, there is also the Bulgarian province of
>>Macedonia I think this is enough to counter your statement. It also
>>seems that FYROM demads exclusive rights of the actual name Macedonia
>>by assigning labels to the people who rightfully carry that name.
>
>If you do not have any problem with others legitimately using the name
>Macedonia to describe themselves and their land, then what are you
>balling about? In the 150 odd years that Greece has been around,
>Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
>
Greeks have been around for a few mellinium. Greeks always
felt to be the decendents of the ancient Macedoniens.
You just havn't been hearing about it, because it has not
been considered appropriate information by your superiors.
>Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
>your roots are from Turkey. You now find yourself living in Aegean
>Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas. How is
>it that there is now a new ethnic group in Greece, going by the name
>of "Greek-Macedonians?" Through what miracle of history do you
>attribute this, or is this nothing more than transparent Greek
>propaganda? Thanks to Mitsotakis' arrogant position, and the venom
>spewed by those like yourself, the plight of the Aegean Macedonians is
>becoming known.
>
There is no ethnic Group known as "Greek-Macedonians"
It was always called macedonia from the beggining of time, we have macedonian
organisations here (Greek offcourse) setup even before the eighties.
They were just never threatened before. (here as in Australia)
There are a few questions that your model can't handle.
One ... why hasn't there been any mention of a macedonian ethnicity
by any sencus. For example the turks ran a census at the turn of
the century and counted great numbers of Greeks all the way upto Skopjia,
were did they go ? Also they found Bulgarians, were did they go ?
On a final note about the "Aegean Macedonians" ... Greece must be
opressing them like no other. I mean if turkey can masacre minorities
in Turkey and the minorities can still speek up, what are Greeks
doing to the "Aegean Macedonians". They should number possibly to
a million acording to VMRO president. To add to that, Greece
ranks impressivly well in Amnesty International.
So either Greeks are doing a "good job" or they don't exist,
you have to explain their almost non-existance,
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Such is life
Georgios Tsoukalas
Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998)
Hi Plamen,
I really resent your comments about mestatements being childish. What do you
know about Macedonia anyways.. I bet you have never been there...I read your
postings which you write in Bulgarian which means you do not have any ideas
about the life, culture or political structure in my part of the world (
Macedonia). For your information..I was part of the life there for many
years..Involved with many aspects of the flow.Another reminder...Only
recently, relatively speaking, during WWII your bulgarian comrades had
occupied my home town...Soldiers took pride of walking to school children
(macedonians from Bitola) and asking"What kind of boy areyou? If the boy
said any other than ""I am Bulgarian" he would be beat to death". I was not there, but my parents are telling these stories all the time. Furthermore,
all shools were converted to teach bulgarian, most churches were converted
to bulgarian...Do you want me to go on?..I never wanted to get involved
with non-sense arguments, but this is getting too much. I say you are welcome to join us for building a strong Macedonia, to prevent bloodshed, but please
do not bring back bad memories..Our people have suffered a great deal for
centuries...we say that was ENOUGH...
So pozdrav
Ilija Bucukovski
Gregory Dandulakis
Panagiotis Lolonis <lol...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>
>I agree with you that Greece should have voiced her objections louder.
>She did not do that because it would have been an interference in the
>internal affairs of another country (Yugoslavia).
And now Greece interferes in Greece's internal matters???!!!
Simply, both Greece and ex-Yugoslavia were in the payrol
of the US foreign aid budget. You wouldn't have expected
too much of fuss against the US interests, right next to
the "devil's" bountaries, in the middle of the cold war;
would you?
Greek politicians of the time have said that in several
occasions: Tito was valuable to the US foreign policy.
Gregory
Marios D. Dikaiakos
>
>Times do change you know - should we interpret present Russian actions
>with reference to the Third International??? What you need to produce is
>*contemporary* evidence that the Republic of Macedonia has expansionist
>aims. This has been singularly lacking in any posting supporting the
>Greek government's stance, all we get are assertions with no supporting
>evidence at all. The very fact that you have to rely on this sort of
>MaCarthyite stuff shows the weakness of your case.
>
Here's what the ex-fascist, ex-communist and now great-democrat
Gligorov said on a speech delivered on March 30th, 1993 and
published in the March 31st issue of "Nova Makedonija".
-------
"With the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia
one page of Balkan history is being closed. The Bucharest peace
[accord] which divided Macedonia can now be revised with this act.
The Versailles injustice made in regard to Macedonia, also, does not
have a big reason for survival."
-------
And here's a sample of the VMRO-DPMNE [Internal Macedonian
Revolutionary Organisation-Democratic Party for Macedonian
National Unity] crap:
-------
Tanjug, Skopje, April 7 1993
After the Serbian nation, the Macedonian nation is the second
largest nation in the Balkans with six million people, including
two million Macedonians living in Bulgaria and a million and a
half in Greece. Deputies of the VMRO-DPMNE made this claim within
the framework of a discussion about the activities of the
Macedonian government hitherto regarding the admission to the
United ations at this evening's session of the former Republic of
Macedonia.
...
Assembly Deputy Speaker Tito Petkovski said that "Greece has
received Aegean Macedonia as a gift from the great powers in
1913" and that "it has no legitimate rights over that territory".
-------
I 'm sure Mr Gligorov and VMRO have no fear about the realization
of their irredentist dreams. After all, they gained Mr Fear's
staunch support!
btw, Mr Fear, keep the "MaCarthyite" bullshit for yourself.
cheers,
Marios Dikaiakos
Dimitar Bojanchev [CONTRACTOR]
>In article <1993Aug26....@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
>Panagiotis Lolonis <lol...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I agree with you that Greece should have voiced her objections louder.
>>She did not do that because it would have been an interference in the
>>internal affairs of another country (Yugoslavia).
>
>
>And now Greece interferes in Greece's internal matters???!!!
>
>Simply, both Greece and ex-Yugoslavia were in the payrol
>of the US foreign aid budget. You wouldn't have expected
>too much of fuss against the US interests, right next to
>the "devil's" bountaries, in the middle of the cold war;
>would you?
>
That makes sense. But how come that at the same time the relationship
between Greece and Turkey was on the edge of a military conflict (both
are NATO members). In fact Turkey is perhaps the strongest and most
valuable US strategic ally in the region.
>Greek politicians of the time have said that in several
>occasions: Tito was valuable to the US foreign policy.
>
Tito wasn't valuable for the US & British interests, he was
invaluable. He was associated both with with Stalin and the US&GB
alience during WW-II. Then he succeeded in breaking with Stalin in
1948 and became the sole darling of the US & GB. You wonder why the
Serbs are still tolerated to that extent and are able to get away with
murder.
>Gregory
Regards,
dimitar
dim...@gdynamics.Eng.SUN.COM
Dimitar Bojanchev [CONTRACTOR]
>For your information, Greeks had protested several times about the practices
>and policies of the x-Yugoslav politicians. In one occasion,
>(a formal dinner in Belgrade) the then Greek Prime Minister reacted very inte-
>sively to comments about the "Macedonian" question. In another occasion,
>(a dinner in Australia) the then President of Greece Christos Sartzetakis
>... left the room when the host (Prime Minister of Australia) talk about
>the same issue. The Australian Prime Minister apologized for the event.
For similar reasons Zhelyu Zhelev (Bulgaria's prezident),
diplomatically requested the removal of a couple of Balkan Airlines
jetliners named "Macedonia" from the Sofia airport for the time of
Mitzotakis' visit, a few months ago. The decision was critisized in
the papers for going too far in accommodating the guest. A case study
in Balkan politics, much ado about a name...
>Best regards,
>Panos Lolonis
>U. of Iowa
Same here,
Dimitar
dim...@gdynamics.Eng.SUN.COM
Plamen Bliznakov
>
>For similar reasons Zhelyu Zhelev (Bulgaria's prezident),
>diplomatically requested the removal of a couple of Balkan Airlines
>jetliners named "Macedonia" from the Sofia airport for the time of
>Mitzotakis' visit, a few months ago. The decision was critisized in
>the papers for going too far in accommodating the guest. A case study
>in Balkan politics, much ado about a name...
>
I think, Dimitar is talking about the jets, which were chartered by PalAir
Macedonia from Balkan Airlines. I remember a couple of years ago the then
Bulgarian minister of transportation went on a visit to Greece on one
of these planes (not chartered at that moment), and they made a big deal
of that case.
Plamen
Plamen Bliznakov
>
> Quite an imagination ... simply put .... census carried out before the
>turn of the century never found a "macedonian" nation.
Could someone of the Greeks netter give me an idea how many Bulgarians
are there in Greece nowadays (after all population exchanges, etc.) ?
Do they have any ethnic / cultural organizations ?
Best regards,
Plamen
Gregory Dandulakis
Dimitar Bojanchev [CONTRACTOR] <dim...@gdynamics.Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
>
>That makes sense. But how come that at the same time the relationship
>between Greece and Turkey was on the edge of a military conflict (both
>are NATO members). In fact Turkey is perhaps the strongest and most
>valuable US strategic ally in the region.
With Turkey the problem was of an "active" form; The US and GB
wanted to make sure that Cyprus will remain in GBs hands while
the Cypriots had revolted against colonialism; even then Greece
tried to close the matter as much as possible. If you wish,
Greek-Turkish tensions were welcomed by the US because it secured
that Cyprus will remain the way which is.
With Skopja there was no immediate problem to be resolved. And
Yugoslavia didn't have US military presence; so it was less liable
to US demands, than Greece and Turkey.
>Tito wasn't valuable for the US & British interests, he was
>invaluable. He was associated both with with Stalin and the US&GB
>alience during WW-II. Then he succeeded in breaking with Stalin in
>1948 and became the sole darling of the US & GB. You wonder why the
>Serbs are still tolerated to that extent and are able to get away with
>murder.
Yes. Yugoslavia was receiving US aid till late 1970s. Caucescu was also
an other beloved of them. The word "tolerated" is not a word which is
used by the US foreign policy; simply it is in their interests or in
their indifference today.
Gregory
Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination
macedonian issue they'd better.
> Dimitar
> dim...@gdynamics.Eng.SUN.COM
>
>
--
Angelos Karageorgiou | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
Yeian kai Eytyxeian | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
Live long & Prosper | NO CARRIER
George Baloglou
Andy Fear wrote:
> ... the majority of the Greek population of Aegean Macedonia is
> a plantation population which postdates the nonGreek population.
Classics scholars are usually uninterested in (population statistics
on) Modern Greece, but here we get a notable exception; tell us, Andy,
which are the percentages of "indigenous" Greeks, "planted" Greeks and
non-Greeks in "Aegean Macedonia"--I would rather reserve this term
for the island of Thassos, but let's respect the favorite terminology
of our "guest"--according to your information?
By the way, I say that as "cultural descendants" of Alexander the
Great--who spread Greek, not "Macedonian", civilization to Asia--
Anatolian Greeks (the "planted" ones, I am one of them) have more
rights on Alexander's (not Skopje's) Macedonia than Macedonian
Slavs, who postdate Alexander. (A Greek "law of return"--how do
you like that, Andy? For such a sworn enemy of (Modern) Greece,
who, unlike others (Turks, Bulgarians, "Macedonians"), clashes with
Greek netters not because of patriotism but because of aggressive
contempt for a whole nation, I do not even have to say whether
I am serious on that or not; go figure!)
One last word, Andy: precisely because they do not want to be
uprooted or enslaved again, the "planted" ones (who have changed
the face of Macedonia (and whole Greece) in the last 70 years,
go see for yourself) are at least as intolerant of the Skopje
propaganda as the "indigenous" Greeks of Macedonia.
George Baloglou
(broadcasting from the southeastern shores of Lake Ontario, USA)
"tnv glwcca mou edwcav Ellnvikn ctis ammoudies tou Omnrou"
(Oducceas Elutns)
vk...@cas.org
(Marios D. Dikaiakos) writes:
>In article <25imic$r...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cl...@keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>>
>>Times do change you know - should we interpret present Russian actions
>>with reference to the Third International??? What you need to produce is
>>*contemporary* evidence that the Republic of Macedonia has expansionist
>>aims. This has been singularly lacking in any posting supporting the
>>Greek government's stance, all we get are assertions with no supporting
>>evidence at all. The very fact that you have to rely on this sort of
>>MaCarthyite stuff shows the weakness of your case.
>>
>
>Here's what the ex-fascist, ex-communist and now great-democrat
>Gligorov said on a speech delivered on March 30th, 1993 and
>published in the March 31st issue of "Nova Makedonija".
>
>-------
>
>"With the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia
>one page of Balkan history is being closed. The Bucharest peace
>[accord] which divided Macedonia can now be revised with this act.
>The Versailles injustice made in regard to Macedonia, also, does not
>have a big reason for survival."
>
false translation of President Gligorov's speech. I posted the original (in
Macedonian) and an accurate translation as soon as the above mistranslation
and its far-fetched misinterpretations appeared on the net (after being fed to
the likes of Mr. Dikaiakos by the Greek press) in early April. The Foreign
Affairs Ministry of Macedonia also issued a statement in response to the false
accusations in which it reiterated the commitmennt of Macedonia to preserving
the international borders, which is even stated explicitly in the Macedonian
constitution.
The "ex-fashist"(?!!!) epitet and referring to president Gligorov as
just "Gligorov" are a good indication of Mr. Dikaiakos' state of mind.
>
>Marios Dikaiakos
Vasil Babamov
Plamen Bliznakov
In article <CCF41...@bisco.kodak.com>, buc...@bisco.kodak.com (Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998)) writes...
>In article <26AUG199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu> bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes:
>>In article <CCD5A...@bisco.kodak.com>, buc...@bisco.kodak.com (Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998)) writes...
>>>
>>>For all of you Greeks talking a lot of trash.....Why aginst Macedonia now..
>>><...>
>>>Why didn't you people wage trashy campaign against us
>>>Macedonians when we were part of the powerfull Yugoslavia..You know, you would
>>>have been burned to ashes in a matter of hours...Now that Macedonia is small
>>>and powerless you find it very joyfull to pick on it...
>>
>>I doubt very much that Greece would have been "burned to ashes in a
>>matter of hours" by "powerfull Yugoslavia". Sounds like a childish argument.
>
>I really resent your comments about mestatements being childish.
Sorry for making you resent, but you argument is childish anyway.
If you want to argue with your opponents, go ahead and argue, but
do it in an intelligent, smart way.
>What do you know about Macedonia anyways..
It's a pity, but I didn't know much on Macedonia until 4 years ago.
It seems, the Bulgarian communist authorities didn't want to allow
much discussion on the Macedonian question, Macedonian history,
etc. I remember only in late 70's there was a statement basically
saying "We don't want your territory, but don't you ask for ours."
No deep historical arguments, etc. I guess, this position of the
ruling party was determined by their anti-Bulgarian policy in Pirin
Macedonia after WWII. Broad discussions would inevitably expose
this policy and the role of the Bulgarian communist leader Georgi
Dimitrov. So, I guess quite denial was the best position the
communist party could take.
After the changes in Bulgaria started in November 1989, I saw a TV
interview with Ivan (Vanche) Mihaylov, one of VMRO leaders. He had
to live in exile in Rome since WWII, not allowed by the Bulgarian
communists to come to Bulgaria, but he was claiming that he is
ethnically Bulgarian (Bulgaro-Macedonian). He was 90 years old (he
passed away shortly after that) - why would he lie ? (This is not
to say that V. Mihaylov was saint, the organization performed in
the past acts of terrorism, as we would classify them today.)
I also heard something about the post-WWII history of Macedonia
from a friend from Petrich (that's in the extreme South-West of
Bulgaria).
But I really got exposed to information about Macedonia only after
coming to the US for a Ph.D. study (in engineering, not related to
social sciences at all). Thanks to the USENET news I got to know
positions of the different countries involved in the Macedonian
question, I saw excerpts from various documents from the past. From
MILS reports I understood what is the political situation in the
Republic of Macedonia, what are the current problems there. So I
value the electronic exchange of information and discussions as a
valuable source for self-education (not available in our countries
just couple of years ago).
The electronic news made me look myself for books and documents on
Macedonian history, read newspapers, and meet with people involved
in the Macedonian question. I do this primarily out of personal
interest, I am not a member of any organization (Lord, save us from
being organized any more ! I hope I am smart enough to decide and
speak for myself.)
I also met here at my university people from the Republic of
Macedonia and made friends with many of them. The personal
experience is even more important to get a feeling "what is it like
on the other side of the border". It turned out we perfectly well
understand each other (OK, after speaking for a couple of hours,
and if not using slang), listen and sing the same folk songs (the
Macedonian are one of my favorite, along with Rhodope songs), make
the same food, have the same traditions. It also turned out, at
least 4 of these guys have cousins, aunts, or uncles in Bulgaria
(not just Pirin Macedonia). (So did the Bulgarian visiting
Fulbright scholar, she has an aunt and first cousin in Skopje.) And
we show respect for each other. I don't consider them Bulgarians,
since they don't feel that way.
>I bet you have never been there...
I have been in Pirin Macedonia, if that is Macedonia for you at
all. I was thinking about going to Ochrid for a vacation this
summer (the lake of Ochrid is closer to Sofia then the Bulgarian
sea resorts, and the prices were lower), but I really had not
enough time for a vacation this year. Even if I had gone there,
what does it change ?
>I read your postings which you write in Bulgarian which means you
>do not have any ideas about the life, culture or political
>structure in my part of the world (Macedonia).
Do you mean, that anyone who writes in Bulgarian "does not have any
ideas about the life", etc. in the Republic of Macedonia. Again,
I think, you are using a poor argument.
>Another reminder...Only
>recently, relatively speaking, during WWII your bulgarian comrades had
>occupied my home town...Soldiers took pride of walking to school children
>(macedonians from Bitola) and asking"What kind of boy areyou? If the boy
>said any other than ""I am Bulgarian" he would be beat to death".
First, how do you know they were my "comrades" ? I was asked to
translate in a local American court for two Bulgarians who
committed assault, and I am even not supposed to meet them before
the trial. Do you think they also are my comrades, because they
happen to be my compatriots. (BTW, please, also note, that
"comrade" now in Bulgaria is a dirty word for many, it implies
communist party membership.)
Second, I in no way do excuse the wrongdoings of Bulgarian army
during WWII, be it in Greece, Vardar Macedonia, or even in Hungary,
where the Bulgarians were fighting the Nazis. However, I don't
know an army in the world which doesn't cause troubles to the local
people (be it German "allies" or Russian "liberators" in Bulgaria
during different periods of WWII).
>I was not there,
Neither was I, nor was any of my ancestors.
>but my parents are telling these stories all the time.
Well, this explains your anti-Bulgarian attitude.
>Furthermore,
>all shools were converted to teach bulgarian, most churches were converted
>to bulgarian...Do you want me to go on?..
I would classify myself as a technocrat who is mostly interested in
the current events, not in the history. But since you raise some of
the issues from the history yourself, let me tell what I know and
what I think.
The fall of communism I lived through taught me _not_ to take
anything (at least, in the social life) for granted. One should
look at various sources, listen to the competing arguments. And
the best basis for own conclusions are the documents and the
personal contacts with witnesses of the events. I was always
taught, that the Soviet army liberated in 1944 Bulgaria from the
fascists. But it now turns out, that the latest Bulgarian
government (which ruled just for a couple of days) before the Red
army came was not fascist at all. This didn't stop the communists
after taking power to put this government on trial, as well as to
send many anti-fascists (but non-communists as well) to labour
camps, and to brutally kill many of them. So, making a cynical
account of the victims, it is not clear if the fascists were more
cruel, or the communists. And if the arrival of the Soviet army
was just "a welcomed liberation".
I believe, as an adult you know that nothing in life is pure white
or pure black. Especially in the history of Macedonia, full of
controversy. One and the same thing could be called liberation or
occupation, depending on who is writing the history (i.e., who has
the power). Many people in Vardar Macedonia welcomed the Bulgarian
army during WWII. The grandfather of one of my Macedonian friends
over here built a new house after their arrival (this doesn't make
the guy less Macedonian then you, does it ?).
And here are some testimonies from authors who are anything but
pro-Bulgarian. Svetozar Vukmanovic - Tempo, Report to the Central
Committee of the Yugoslav Communist Party of August 8, 1943
["Izvori za osloboditelnata vojna vo Makedonija 1941-1945", Volume
1, Book 3, Skopje, December 1968, Document 68, p. 331-332] :
"The Bulgarian invaders were met by the people by flowers
<Bugarske okupatore <...> narod je docekao cvecem>". Mirce Acev &
Bane Andreev, members of the CC of MCP in their letter to the CC,
August 9, 1942 [same source, Book 2, Doc. 75, p. 356]: "The
Macedonian people believes in the liberating role of Bulgaria...
The masses are Bulgarophile, we have to get closer to these
masses." Dragan Pavlovic: "We should account for the great hate
against Yugoslavia and for the numerous Bulgarophile elements.
<Treba da se drzi smetka za golemata omraza kon Jugoslavia... i za
mnogubrojnostta na bugrofilskite elementi.>"
As far as you hometown Bitola after WWII goes, here are some facts
from a book by Kosta Ts`rnushanov, born in Prilep before the
Ilinden uprising of 1903 (so he is Macedonian), he was around 40
during WWII (so he remembers these events well enough), and now is
90 (so he should not be compromising with his conscience)
["Makedonizm`t i s`protivata na Makedonija sreshtu nego",
University Publishing House "St. Kliment Ochridski", Sofia, 1992,
p.270-273] (you can skip such qualifications as "patriot", "brave",
"invader", and "enslaved" as subjective, the facts are the only
thing which matters, conclusions should be made by the reader):
The First Court Trials against Distinguished Bulgarians in Bitola
Bitola as a second large center of the national opposition against
the Macedonianism has also become a scene of anti-Bulgarian
outrages. The victims there were among the most distinguished
citizens <...>:
1. Dr. Konstantin (Kocho) Robev from Bitola, popular physician,
known in the town and the region, very respected for his noble
character, high western culture and awaken Bulgarian consciousness.
He is a heir of the Revival-period family of Robevs from Ochrid,
who were in continuous contact with <...> Dimit`r Miladinov.
2. Dr. Boris Svetiev from Bitola, physician, manager of the medical
service in Bitola region, heir of a distinguished Bitola family of
Svetievs, who gave the great patriot archimandrite Evlogij, the
archierej representative in Thesalonica, thrown into the sea by the
Greeks in 1913. Boris himself was one of the members of MMTRO
sentenced to long years in prison in the relation with the Skopje
trial in 1927 <...>
3. Hristo Svetiev, a chemical engineer from Bitola, brother of
Boris Svetiev, son of the Bulgarian teacher and patriot V`lkanov,
murdered by the Greek terrorists in the town for his patriotic
activities; graduated abroad, member of MMTRO and as such
prosecuted by the Serbs; last mayor of Bitola, highly respected by
the citizens <...>
4. Stefan Svetiev, brother of Boris and Hristo Svetiev, lawyer,
member of MMTRO <...> hanged cruelly in the prison simulating
suicide.
5. Dr. Vlado Tudzarovski, physician from the village of Ljubojno,
near Prespa <...>
6. Dr. Asen Tatarchev from Resen, doctor-gynecologist, heir of the
distinguished Bulgarian family of Tatarchevs, who gave one of the
founders of VMORO (Dr. Hristo Tatarchev). Asen himself was a
participant of the liberation movement against the Yugoslav
kingdom, sentenced to long years in Serb prisons, where he became
deaf on one ear and lost two ribs; later left illegally Yugoslavia
together with his wife - the Swiss Martha Tatarcheva, and their two
children, and arrived to Geneva, where he submitted a petition to
the Society of Peoples on behalf of the enslaved Macedonian
Bulgarians. Returned to his Motherland in 1941 to continue his
patriotic work, for which he was tortured and sentenced for long
years in prison.
<...>
This trial moved whole Bitola and caused the suppressed Bulgarian
spirit of the population to be demonstrated. A testimony of these
events is given by a witness, whose written memoirs are at the
disposition of the author. For now, his name will not be revealed
due to concern for his security. It'll be just mentioned that
he was born in Lerin region and by occupation is a lawyer <...>
"From my service in Macedonia I keep the memory of the trial in Bitola
against the group of Bulgarians, organized by the Macedonists -
Serbian puppets, which I directly witnessed in some its parts. <...>
The suspects Dr. Robev, Dr. Tatarchev, and Dr. Tudzarovski were
brought to the court and returned back on a carriage, since they
were not able to move - according to the public testimony - because
the tortures. We were on the balcony with a friend of mine. Stalls
were occupied by a group of 150-200 people openly sympathizing with
the suspects. Also in the stalls, there was a group of about 15-20
people, who, as I later understood, were Tsintsars and Serbomans.
This group before the opening of the hearings was chanting "Down
with Svetiev ! Death for Svetiev !" and so on, for each of the
suspects, after his name was announced. I saw that the chanting
of this small group was not supported by the majority in the
stalls <...>
I personally was impressed that the suspects as well as the
majority of the public attending this day, were from Prespa region,
and were not afraid to openly demonstrate their Bulgarian heritage
despite the presence of the agents of OZNA. This was touching to
tears the soul of all attending Bulgarians.
During the day when I was present, the hearing of eng. Hristo
Svetiev, the former mayor of Bitola was started. A man taller than
the average size got up from the benches of the suspects and came
closer to the judges with his head up. The small group which I
mentioned before started chanting: "Death for Hristo Svetiev !
Down with Hristo Svetiev !" The suspect, however, was calm <...>
To the question of the chairman of the court if he admits he is
guilty, eng. Svetiev answered sharply that he does not. To the
question why he became a mayor of Bitola and a tool of the
invader, the suspect answered: "I am an engineer and became a
mayor of Bitola due to my love to my home town and Macedonia. I
didn't serve to the invader, I served to Bulgaria..."
To the question: "Who are you - a Bulgarian or a Macedonian" an
answer followed: "_Bulgarian and Macedonian - this is the same
thing ! _" (Emphasized in the original.)
The answer made the court members and the group of Tsintsars and
Serbomans mad, and they started to cry about the death of Svetiev.
The people from the security also made a move and were following
the behavior of the group from the stalls. To avoid incidents and
not to irritate the public, the court chairman ended the hearing
of Svetiev <...>
After that Dr. Tudzarovski was called, who, although hardly, but
managed to come to the podium. To the questions he also answered
that he does not admit he is guilty, emphasizing that he served to
Bulgaria. The brave answers of Dr. Tudzarovski caused the same
reaction in the group of Tsintsars and Serbomans... This caused the
people from the stalls to get up one by one and to chant: "Mercy and
freedom for Dr. Tudzarovski !", which chants were supported by the
rest of the attenders, and completely muted the cries of the
Tsintsars and Serbomans. At the same moment the security people
started to mess with the patriots from the stalls <...> The
patriotic Bulgarian public stood up, took the chairs and started to
hit both the people from the group I have mentioned before, as well
as the security people. A chaos was created and the chairman of the
court had to seek support from the outside security of OZNA,
after which he ended the hearings, although it was early afternoon.
I also attended the last meeting of the court, at which the
prosecution and the defence gave their speeches. The prosecutor in
his speech showed the greatest guilt of the defendants, the fact
that they considered themselves Bulgarians, and as such served to
the Bulgarian invader, for which he requested a death penalty...
After that the sentence was announced which was: death for the
defendants...
We went out of the gym to see the defendants coming out. All
without an exception were calm. They were allowed to meet their
relatives near the building for a farewell. Here Dr. Tudzarovski
took farewell with his fiancee, and I heard him releasing her from
the engagement. I heard her answer, that she will be trustful to
him till death. Dr. Tatarchev on the other side took farewell with
his wife, a Swiss <...> However, the actions of the Prespa
Bulgarians <...> caused the Bulgaro-haters to take the popular
attitude into account and three days later to change the sentencing
to a life in prison <...>"
Ilija, according to various sources I have seen, several thousands
were killed in Vardar Macedonia after WWII for "co-operation with
the invader", and over one hundred thousands spent some time in
labour camps like Izidrovo. And believe me, they were not
Albanians. What portion of the Slav Macedonian population at that
time were the prosecuted ? I know now the Republic of Macedonia
has about 2 mln. population of which around 2/3 are Slav
Macedonians.
Oh boy, if I was in your parents shoes, I would have taught you to
hate Bulgarians as much as possible.
This story does not give me the illusion that nowadays there are
many people in the Republic of Macedonia considering themselves
Bulgarians (although I know from MILS reports there are some,
probably, not very rational...). And I didn't post it to excuse even
one death caused by the Bulgarian army during WWII. Please, accept
my sympathy for any such case.
Prijatelski pozdrav,
Plamen
Mike Vanier
Message-ID: <CCBGy...@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk>
a...@csc.liv.ac.uk (Antonis Michailidis) writes,
> In article <60.739.515...@canrem.com>,
> mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes:
>> If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
>> territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with
>> some solid evidence.
> I presented solid evidence (COMINTERN decision)!!! Could you please
> point out to us an official goverment document that shows that the
> COMINTERN decision is not valid anymore?
The Soviet Union has collapsed, and the cold war is over.
The Federal Yugoslav Republic has unravelled, and the communist
philosopy has been rejected. The Republic of Macedonia is no longer
under the Serbian yoke. It is a sovereign nation, and as such sets
forth its own policies. The Macedonian constitution includes the
following amendment.
Amendment I
1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards
any neighbouring state.
The fact that Macedonia does not have the military capability to
invade anyone, only serves to highlight the absurdity of the Greek
position. It is my impression that these unsupported claims are nothing
more than a ruse, designed to camouflage Greece's own territorial
ambitions.
>> It is common knowledge that Mitsotakis and Milosevic publicly
>> discussed exactly that?
> Evidence?
Consider the following;
ATHENS, June 25 1992, Reuter reports that Serbia has proposed
to Greece that the two Balkan countries form a confederation.
"I believe a Greek-Yugoslav confederation would not only be a
factor of stability in the area but would also serve the
interests of both the Greek and Serbian people," he [Milosevic]
said in an interview with Athens' private Antenna television channel.
He[Milosevic] was asked what confederation would mean for the newly
independent state of Macedonia, which sits between Serbia and Greece.
"I am sure under conditions of integration the government
of Skopje (Macedonia) would have nothing against taking part
in the developments, in the integration process," he said.
From Time Magazine, October 12, 1992, we have this:
Partly because the Greek position is so preposterous, the suspicion
persists that the complaint about the name camouflages a revival of
Greece's own age-old expansionistic ambitions. Several European
governments have relayed to Washington reports that Mitsotakis has
secretly discussed the partition of Macedonia with Serbia and
perhaps with Albania and Bulgaria as well.
The New York Times, of November 23, 1992, reports,
The Republic of Macedonia renounced all claims to what is
now Greek Macedonia, as Athens rightfully insisted. But Greece
invites bloody mischief by pressuring Macedonia to renounce the name
that defines it as a distinct country with established boundaries.
That could tempt Serbia or Bulgaria to assert old territorial claims.
Reported from Tirana, March 2,1993, ATA reports,
In an interview with the Bulgarian newspaper Kontinent, Macedonian
President Kiro Gligorov stated that Serbian President Slobodan
Milosevic and Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis have talked
about the division of Macedonia. According to reports, Milosevic
and Mitsotakis have had meetings during which they have spoken
about an eventual division of Macedonia between their two countries.
THE WASHINGTON TIMES, June 1993
As 300 U.S. troops prepare to fly to Macedonia as symbolic guardians
of its security, diplomats have revealed that Serbia tried to persuade
Greece to partition the new republic. "We have said repeatedly that we
do not have claims or schemes outside our present borders," a Greek
Embassy spokesman in Washington said yesterday.
Because of a Turkish minority in Macedonia and possible Greek
involvement, Turkey is also considered a potential participant in
any conflict there.
Mr. Michailidis, once again I ask you, do you have any solid
evidence to support the Greek claim that the Republic of Macedonia
has territorial pretensions on Northern Greece, or are you merely
another Greek propagandist trying to cover up your own countries
regional ambitions?
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
Message-ID: <CCBGy...@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk>
a...@csc.liv.ac.uk (Antonis Michailidis) writes,
>In article <60.739.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes:
>>N.G.L. Hammond, the darling of the Greeks, presents only one point of
>>view. Other equally eminent historians have come up with different
>>conclusions. Is their research of no use since it doesn't support the
>>current Greek propaganda?
>Can you point out to us their other research and in which way they
>disagree with Hammond on the particular point that I mentioned?
>If you were honest enough you could have presented evidence from
>that research that you are so keen to call on, but at the same
>time so unhesitating to hide.
I am an honest man, Mr. Michailidis, therefore I would make a lousy
Greek. The work of other authors is hardly a secret, although it may
well be so where you come from. I can give you some names but the
rest is up to you. Try; Borza, Crossland, and Badian as well as
Demosthene's, Thrasymachus, Isocrates, Arrian, and Appian.
>>>BTW, you seem to assume that you have the right to chage my name from
>>>Macedonian to Greek Macedonian. And, I have not seen anybody objecting
>>>their attempts to change the name of Macedonia (where my family has
>>>been living for several generations) to Aegean Macedonia.
>>Excuse me Mr. Michailidis, but the term Aegean Macedonia is not new.
>>It refers to maritime Macedonia.
>Why are you bullshitiing Mr. OUZO-novski? The term Aegean Macedonia is
>an invention of the communist policy that you are so keen to reject
>when it suits your misconceptions. If you open *any* history book you
>will see that the geographic area which you call "Aegean Macedonia" is
>called just Macedonia.
Once again you expose your immigrant roots. Aegean Macedonia is the
term used by the indiginous Macedonian population, it refers to Maritime
Macedonia. Captain Evans refers to it himself in "A British Officer's
Report" 1944. I did not invent it, nor is it the invention of the
communists. Do feel free to support your many claims with evidence.
>>Your obviously very recently in the land to make a gaffe of
>>that magnitude.
>Ha,ha,ha. I said that my family is living in Macedonia (more precisely,
>Nestorio, Kastoria, North-Western Macedonia) for *several* generations
>and not *few* as you might wish.
Kostur is definitely in Aegae being only 50 miles to the sea, while
Nesrum is practically on the Albanian border. I beleive that if you
search through your family tree you will find that you are part Albanian.
>It is likely that it has roots a hell deeper than the ones which are
>apparent. But still we are Macedonians a hell longer than anyone
>in Skopje fancies to consider himself recently.
You just said your family has only been in Aegae for several
generations. Where are they originally from. Search for your
roots there. If you know your family history, then you should
know what you were *before* you were a "Maced*n."
>You seemed puzzled from my surname.
Actually I'm not puzzled by your surname at all. It's you that
seemed confused about mine. My name is a gift from the Ottoman
Turks. My great-grandfather's great-grandfather had his name
changed from Traianoi to Uzunoi, because he was tall. In Turkish
Uzun means tall. It's a common name, many former Ottoman residents
share it. In Greece you've probably bastardized it to Ouzounos, and
using the "special-Greek-scientific-method" determined that it's a
Hellenic name.
>In my case my father is Pontios
That was obvious.
>and my mother (Artemis) is Macedonian. So my family was living in
>Macedonia (and carried that name) before the emergence of the so
>called Macedonian Question in the political developments.
There are two differences between you and I. Firstly, I am willing
to back up my claims with evidence, something you have yet to do.
Secondly, my people, the Macedonians, weren't brought in from
outside to change the demographics of Aegean Macedonia. At best, you
are part Pontian, while the other part is most likely Albanian. I had
you pegged from the beginning. Still I give you credit. Most "Greeks"
blush and become angry when their backgrounds are revealed. You are
definitely not an ethnic Macedonian, and with your ancestry it's
doubtful that you are even a Greek. In any case, my people have
been in the neighbourhood ten times longer than yours.
>> In the 150 odd years that Greece has been around,
>> Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
>Some of the Greeks for more than 3000 years call themselves Macedonian
First you must prove that the ancient Macedons were Hellenes, then you
must prove that the hundreds of thousands of Prosvigi brought into Aegae
after the ethnic cleansing campaigns of the 1920's are, by some miracle
of Greek propaganda, the direct descendants of the ancient Macedons.
Only then can you make this slogan-like claim.
>>Thanks to Mitsotakis' arrogant position, and the venom spewed by those
>>like yourself, the plight of the Aegean Macedonians is becoming known.
>FYI, my family belongs to the people that your propaganda calls
>"Aegean Macedonians".
In reality, Mr. Michailidis, you are a part Pontian part Albanian
pseudo-Greek. Greece has not succeeded in its effort to rewrite the
Macedonian heritage as it has so obviously done with others. Either
support your abundant claims or else post to a more appropriate
conference, like alt.news.imported.greeks.
Lubi Uzunovski
A.T. Fear
: Andy Fear wrote:
:
: > ... the majority of the Greek population of Aegean Macedonia is
: > a plantation population which postdates the nonGreek population.
:
:
: Classics scholars are usually uninterested in (population statistics
: on) Modern Greece, but here we get a notable exception; tell us, Andy,
: which are the percentages of "indigenous" Greeks, "planted" Greeks and
: non-Greeks in "Aegean Macedonia"
C.B.Eddy, chairman of the Greek Refugee Settlement Commission in his
book 'Greece and Greek refugees' notes that according to official Greek
sources the Greek population of Aegean Macedonia was only 42% of the
whole population. He notes that this figure was disputed and given the
Greek gift for creative accounting we might suspect that the figure was
lower, anyway we have a maximum of Greeks who number less than half the
population of this area. All histories make it clear that it was the
influx of refugees following the defeat of Greek adventurism in Asia
Minor which led to the majority Greek population of today. (True of
Eddy cited above p.234) and Clogg ( A concise history of Greece p.106)
Clogg notes that the census of 1928 showed almost half of the population
of Aegean Macedonia was of refugee origin.
: By the way, I say that as "cultural descendants" of Alexander the
: Great--who spread Greek, not "Macedonian", civilization to Asia--
: Anatolian Greeks (the "planted" ones, I am one of them) have more
: rights on Alexander's (not Skopje's) Macedonia than Macedonian
: Slavs, who postdate Alexander.
I'm not sure that the modern Greeks have any more claim to be cultural
descendants of the ancient Greeks than any other European nation. Nor
can we simply ignore the brute fact that Slavic Macedonians have been in
Macedonia for more than 1,000 years. More than enough time to give them
the right to call themselves Macedonians and a lot more than many of the
Greek planters in Aegean Macedonia. The only difference is that it is
only this latter group who wish to steal the name Macedonian for their
exclusive use.
: (A Greek "law of return"--how do
: you like that, Andy? For such a sworn enemy of (Modern) Greece,
: who, unlike others (Turks, Bulgarians, "Macedonians"), clashes with
: Greek netters not because of patriotism but because of aggressive
: contempt for a whole nation,
I think this means I disagree with Greek foreign policy and dislike the
incorrect use of ancient history for propaganda purposes...
: One last word, Andy: precisely because they do not want to be
: uprooted or enslaved again, the "planted" ones (who have changed
: the face of Macedonia (and whole Greece) in the last 70 years,
I agree with that, but I'm not sure it's a record I would want to boast about...
Might go down well in Serbia though
: go see for yourself) are at least as intolerant of the Skopje :
: propaganda as the "indigenous" Greeks of Macedonia.
We should be surprised about that such populations are usually
excessively chauvinistic.
One can only sympathise with refugees. However let's remember that in
this case their plight was caused initially by Greek chauvinism. I
wonder if there's a lesson here.
Andy
George Baloglou
> George Baloglou (balo...@Oswego.EDU) wrote:
>
> : Andy Fear wrote:
> :
> : > ... the majority of the Greek population of Aegean Macedonia is
> : > a plantation population which postdates the nonGreek population.
> :
> :
> : Classics scholars are usually uninterested in (population statistics
> : on) Modern Greece, but here we get a notable exception; tell us, Andy,
> : which are the percentages of "indigenous" Greeks, "planted" Greeks and
> : non-Greeks in "Aegean Macedonia"
>
> C.B.Eddy, chairman of the Greek Refugee Settlement Commission in his
> book 'Greece and Greek refugees' notes that according to official Greek
> sources the Greek population of Aegean Macedonia was only 42% of the
> whole population. He notes that this figure was disputed and given the
> Greek gift for creative accounting we might suspect that the figure was
> lower, anyway we have a maximum of Greeks who number less than half the
> population of this area. All histories make it clear that it was the
> influx of refugees following the defeat of Greek adventurism in Asia
> Minor which led to the majority Greek population of today. (True of
> Eddy cited above p.234) and Clogg ( A concise history of Greece p.106)
> Clogg notes that the census of 1928 showed almost half of the population
> of Aegean Macedonia was of refugee origin.
>
I have no problem with the above (except that we have to remember that
many non-Greek residents of Macedonia were Turks/Moslems, not Slavs),
but you still have to answer my question: after all the population
transfers, intermarriages, etc, what are your estimates of TODAY'S
percentages of "indigenous" Greeks, "planted" Greeks and non-Greeks in
what you call "Aegean Macedonia"? [You feel so comfortable throwing
SKOPJE'S TERMINOLOGY on the Greeks, don't you?] To help a bit, how many
people of Slavic conscience (not origin) do you think that live in Greece
today: 1,000,000, as a fellow journalist of yours wrote earlier this
month? about 300,000, as Kiro Gligorof claims? 30,000 to 50,000, as a
State Department report estimated in 1991?
>
> : By the way, I say that as "cultural descendants" of Alexander the
> : Great--who spread Greek, not "Macedonian", civilization to Asia--
> : Anatolian Greeks (the "planted" ones, I am one of them) have more
> : rights on Alexander's (not Skopje's) Macedonia than Macedonian
> : Slavs, who postdate Alexander.
>
> I'm not sure that the modern Greeks have any more claim to be cultural
> descendants of the ancient Greeks than any other European nation.
Here we go! This is a well known argument, often heard by some Classics
scholars--many of them have never set foot in Greece, I can guess they
would probably feel more comfortable in, say, Turkey, where no locals
would make arrogant claims of cultural descendance from Ancient Greece.
"They" even like to say to the Greeks "your culture has been corrupted
by Moslems and Slavs", conveniently forgetting that Greek and Roman
cultures had been put to sleep by Christianity, not Islam or various
"barbarians". What "they" overlook is the fact that the "modern Greek"
speaks, by tradition and/or education, a language that is very close
to ancient Greek--I KNOW that, as I studied both versions of Greek
rather thoroughly; instead, "they" are quite happy to say (of modern
Greek) "it's a completely different language" (compared to ancient
Greek). [What a contrast with other Classics scholars who have mastered
modern Greek with minimal effort, visit Greece every other year or so,
have many Greek friends, etc]
> Nor
> can we simply ignore the brute fact that Slavic Macedonians have been in
> Macedonia for more than 1,000 years. More than enough time to give them
> the right to call themselves Macedonians and a lot more than many of the
> Greek planters in Aegean Macedonia. The only difference is that it is
> only this latter group who wish to steal the name Macedonian for their
> exclusive use.
>
... except that most of them used to call themselves "Bulgarians" until
the mid 40's and beyond, thus having felt "Macedonians" for less than
50 years, compared to 70 years of residence in Macedonia of the "planted"
Greeks and who-knows-how-many centuries of "indigenous" Greeks.
>
> : (A Greek "law of return"--how do
> : you like that, Andy? For such a sworn enemy of (Modern) Greece,
> : who, unlike others (Turks, Bulgarians, "Macedonians"), clashes with
> : Greek netters not because of patriotism but because of aggressive
> : contempt for a whole nation,
>
> I think this means I disagree with Greek foreign policy and dislike the
> incorrect use of ancient history for propaganda purposes...
>
Not really, it's much more than that, your postings have given you
away; I will only recall your "proud" discovery of the existence of
two states in Cyprus and your reference to the "Turkish Republic of
Northern Cyprus"--I bet you disagree with your government's reluctance
to recognize it. [See also my comments above on Classics scholars.]
> : One last word, Andy: precisely because they do not want to be
> : uprooted or enslaved again, the "planted" ones (who have changed
> : the face of Macedonia (and whole Greece) in the last 70 years,
>
> I agree with that, but I'm not sure it's a record I would want to boast about...
> Might go down well in Serbia though
>
I did not refer to ethnic cleansing (performed by ALL Balkan states,
don't play naive here), but to the undisputable progress and rapid
development that Anatolian Greeks brought to Macedonia and Greece.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
> : go see for yourself) are at least as intolerant of the Skopje :
> : propaganda as the "indigenous" Greeks of Macedonia.
>
> We should be surprised about that such populations are usually
> excessively chauvinistic.
Not at all, those who have tasted DEFEAT do not want to taste it
again--not even at the terminology level--just because certain
scholars, journalists, etc feel otherwise.
> One can only sympathise with refugees. However let's remember that in
> this case their plight was caused initially by Greek chauvinism. I
> wonder if there's a lesson here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Here you give yourself away again! "Greek chauvinism/adventurism" is
all you can see behind 1922, disregarding World War I, European powers
planning for the Middle East, centuries of Ottoman oppression of the
Anatolian Greek/Christian population (culminating in the (very
"repeatable") 1914 pogroms), etc.
> Andy
Unless if you surprise me with a "novel" response, I do not plan on
counterresponding, not so much because of lingering suspicions on
your moral or intellectual integrity (as expressed in the past by
various netters, whose "theories" I chose not to adopt), but simply
because I said what I wanted to say. [Well, I also refrain from
posting on alt.news.macedonia--I have a problem with the name of the
newsgroup, not its readers--but, who knows, you may force me to sin
for a third time!]
Gregory Dandulakis
>
someone else wrote:
>
>Andy Fear wrote:
>
someone else wrote:
>
>Andy Fear wrote:
...
My experience from last year with this guy:
He is a slightly better version of Serdar/Mutlu. A micronoic who
makes a disservice to his country and his field.
Gregory
Mike Vanier
s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Georgios Tsoukalas) writes,
>In article <60.739.515...@canrem.com>
>mike....@canrem.com (MikeVanier) writes:
>>If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
>>territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with some
>>solid evidence. A fifty year old communist document no longer holds
>>water. Why is Greece supposedly afraid of a country one fifth its
>>size possessing virtually no military capability? The argument that
>>you and others present is simply not credible.
>Geee, you must be blind and deaf. there are hundreds of quotes
>especialy from the opposition in parlament about the status of the
>northern province of macedonia.
Golly, wally, I'm neither blind nor deaf. But you must be illiterate
or arthritic. With "hundreds of quotes", to choose from you couldn't be
bothered to post a single one of them?
>>The only time Macedonia was not officially referred to by that
>>name was after its partitioning in 1913 until the end of the
>>Second World War.
>Macedonia as you put it has never been called that. Only the
>province has been called that.
Wrong Georgios, that's why you have parts of Macedonia in Albania,
Bulgaria and Greece as well as the Republic. It's a fact. look it
up and live with it. The Greek province of Macedonia which Macedonians
refer to as Aegean Macedonia is only a section of Macedonia, it's
not the whole thing. Have you ever heard of the Bucharest Treaty?
>Offcourse you regect the almost official position in Skopjia but
>The Greek official position that Boarders should not change under any
>circumstances you ignore !!.
It's been widely reported by other countries that Greece has
been trying to partition the Republic of Macedonia. Apparently
Greece has conducted dialogues with Albania, Bulgaria and
Serbia. Why should I believe the Greek position now?
>the name Agean Macedonia was "imposed on the Greek macedonia,
>it's not an accepted definition.
The term Aegean Macedonia or Aegae, was used to describe that
region long before it was ever referred to as Greek Macedonia.
Such a definition has never been imposed. It is a purely
descriptive term, used by the indiginous Macedonian population.
The term is foreign to Greeks because Greeks are foreign to
Macedonia.
>You assume that his family has been living in the regeon for a few
>generations. I have not heard him say so.
We've already been through this. It's time for you to play catch-up.
>Greeks have been around for a few mellinium. Greeks always
>felt to be the decendents of the ancient Macedoniens.
>You just havn't been hearing about it, because it has not
>been considered appropriate information by your superiors.
Give me a break Georgios. Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch
the US State Department all report the abuses inflicted by the
Greek state on the Macedonian minority, yet Greeks constantly
claim that Greece is at the top for human rights. I think there
may be a few things that your superiors are not informing you of.
As far as Greeks being around for a few millenium, well it just
aint so. The ancient Hellenic tribes are long gone. Mitsotakis
has yet to prove that modern day Greeks are the direct descendents
of the ancient Hellenes. Although most Greeks just take such things
for granted. They've been brainwashed to do so since birth.
>There is no ethnic Group known as "Greek-Macedonians"
I'm well aware of that, It's Mitsotakis who seems confused.
>There are a few questions that your model can't handle. One.. why
>hasn't there been any mention of a macedonian ethnicity
>by any sencus. For example the turks ran a census at the turn of
>the century and counted great numbers of Greeks all the way upto
>Skopjia, were did they go?
Macedonians were classified as Bulgarians, or Serbs by the Turkish
census because they were lumped with the other Slavic speakers.
The existence of a separate Macedonian ethnic group has been known for
over a century. It was the greed of the Greek, Serbian, and Bulgarian
states that falsified the census'. Each one was vying for its own
chunk of Macedonian territory.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
lol...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes,
>I agree with you that Greece should have voiced her objections louder.
>She did not do that because it would have been an interference in the
>internal affairs of another country (Yugoslavia).
It still is interfering in the affairs of another country.
That country is called Macedonia.
>By the way, Greeks do not find "joyfull to pick on a powerless country"
>Simply, they beleive that that country should apply for international
>recognition under a name that is more representative and appropriate.
There is nothing more apropriate than calling Macedonia as Macedonia
and the population of Macedonia as Macedonians. Greeks should stick
to being Greek, and leave other people alone.
>Also, the constitution of that country should guarantee that the
>rights of all minorities are respected and that the stability in the
>region is preserved. Once those criteria are satisfied, that country
>will be welcome in the international community.
Macedonia has gone a long way towards satisfying the needs of
its minorities. Its even built an amendment into its constitution
explicitly stating that it has no claims on any territory.
Using your criteria, it's Greece that wouldn't qualify as a nation.
First off its full of minorities that not only have no representation
but the Greek state actually denies their very existence. As far as
boundary disputes go, Greece takes the cake. You've got Bulgaria
eyeing Trakia, Turkey and the infinite dispute over Cyprus, and then
there's the Greek irridentist plans for Albanian Epirus.
Practice what you preach.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Georgios Tsoukalas) writes,
>>Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
>>Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
>>your roots are from Turkey. You now find yourself living in Aegean
>>Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas.
>Quite an imagination ... simply put .... census carried out before the
>turn of the century never found a "macedonian" nation.
Maybe so, but I was right neverthless. At the turn of this century
Greeks were only a small percentage of the population in Aegean
Macedonia. Ethnic cleansing and forced immigration as well as forced
assimilation account for the large Greek presence in the region today.
Aegean Macedonia is not the indiginous land for all those "Greeks"
that now fill it. As far as Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian stats,
you can just put them in your pipe and smoke them. Stats are only
as honest as the people who take them. According to your stats we
don't exist. I'd say your stats are somewhat dishonest.
But then why listen to me, you've already proven to yourself that
I'm not real. You Greeks are so alarmingly clever.
>They did find Greeks though way into FYROM .. So it's a pretty simple
>guess as to who has a better chance of existance. One's for sure.
>Macedonian nation is nowere to be found. Greeks though were quite common.
Well golly Georgios, why bother going through all this trouble if
Macedonians don't exist. I am interested though, according to your
stats they found Greeks all the way into FYROM, and according to
Mitsotakis latest election efforts, Macedonians are Greeks. Wouldn't
your stats then indicate that there was a Macedonian nation? I suppose
those poor absent minded Greeks all the way into FYROM forgot that
they were Macedonians, hence no Macedonian nation on your honest
Greek stats. Boy, it's a good thing Mitsotakis set the historical
record straight.
>That's why you have sities like Skopia with Greek names and of course
>Monastiri (I don't know what you have named it know) was entirely a
>BIG greek City ... were did they go ???
Skopje comes from the Roman Scupi while Manastir is what the Turks
referred to Bitola as because of the large number of Slavonic
Christian Monastaries in the area.
>Greeks must be very efficient to supress hundreds of thousands, a
>significant persenntage of the population and still make it at the
>Top of the Amnesty International countries for respecting minorities...
It would be surprising if it were true, but the unfortunate truth is
that just about everyone is aware of the treatment of minorities in
Greece. That's why Amnesty international claims that Greece has
the worst human rights record of all the countries in the European
Community. Now that the Eastern Block has been replaced by democracies
Greece's human rights record continues to plummet. See, Amnesty's report
GREECE: Violations of the right to freedom of expression.
November 1992, AI Index: EUR 25/15/92,
>So eith Greeks are surpressing them .... sure .. or they are not there.
>Gee the truth hurts :)
>George Tsoukalas
Yes George, they are supressing them, and you're right, the truth does
hurt. I hope that on the one hand you'll read the report, less than
a year old, on the abuses of minorities by the Greek state, and at the
same time, if you could please post Amnesty's article indicating that
Greece has made it to the top of the Human Rights list. I'd be very
curious to see it. If it actually exists, that is.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
dika...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Marios D. Dikaiakos) writes,
>Here's what the ex-fascist, ex-communist and now great-democrat
>Gligorov said on a speech delivered on March 30th, 1993 and
>published in the March 31st issue of "Nova Makedonija".
Thank you, Marios, for taking the time to post something that
resembles evidence. You stand out among your countrymen.
-----------
>"With the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia
>one page of Balkan history is being closed. The Bucharest peace
>[accord] which divided Macedonia can now be revised with this act.
>The Versailles injustice made in regard to Macedonia, also, does not
>have a big reason for survival."
-----------
I'll just assume that what you've written is accurate. In this
statement, Gligorov has not made any claim to Greek territory.
Let's have a look at this. If the Bucharest Peace Accord did actually
divide Macedonia, then I'd say that Greece has some explaining to do.
According to Greece, the province of Macedonia which was
supposedly wholly Greek, was liberated not divided. If in fact
Macedonia was divided by the Bucharest Peace Accord then there
are obviously other parts to Macedonia. For if Macedonia is whole
and exists only in Greece, then surely it could never have been
divided, similarly, if Macedonia is divided then surely there is more
to Macedonia than what is in Greece. Curiously, though, the Greek
government denies this. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
The first thing to determine is whether Macedonia was actually divided,
or just liberated. Since there are parts of Macedonia in Albania,
Bulgaria, as well as the Republic, then I suggest that the Bucharest
Treaty is a real document which describes the partitioning of the
Macedonian nation. Furthermore we are from time to time referred to
the existence of a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece,
most significantly in those parts of Macedonia that were lopped off
the whole. This would suggest to me that there is strong and ongoing
evidence to support the claim that Macedonia was divided, and that a
Macedonian minority now exists in these Macedonian regions.
Why are Greece and Bulgaria denying the existence of a Macedonian
minority living withing their "parts" of Macedonia? I could be that
each one is well aware of how it aquired its share of Macedonia, and
that this information is making them feel insecure The existence of
the Bucharest Treaty alone, would nullify Greece's slogan-like mantra's
on Macedonia.
-------
>And here's a sample of the VMRO-DPMNE [Internal Macedonian
>Revolutionary Organisation-Democratic Party for Macedonian
>National Unity] crap:
-------
>Tanjug, Skopje, April 7 1993
>After the Serbian nation, the Macedonian nation is the second
>largest nation in the Balkans with six million people, including
>two million Macedonians living in Bulgaria and a million and a
>half in Greece.
How can this possibly be true? Greece has informed the world
ad vomitum that there is no Macedonian minority living within
Greek boundaries. In fact there are no minorities at all.
What problems do you invisage for Greece should minorities
including a Macedonian minority, actually exist in Greece?
To what lengths do you thing Greece would go to supress these
people?
...
>Assembly Deputy Speaker Tito Petkovski said that "Greece has
>received Aegean Macedonia as a gift from the great powers in
>1913" and that "it has no legitimate rights over that territory".
-----
Pretty straightforward. If Greece really liberated Macedonia in
1913, then Macedonia was not really divided as the Bucharest Treaty
implies, nor can there be a Macedonian minority living in Greece.
If however there are other parts to Macedonia, as indicated by the
Treaty, and if the Macedonian minority actually exists, then Greece
had better start explaining.
Thank you very much for posting this. This is precisely the kind
of stuff that Greek politicians avoid at any cost. They would
much rather argue ancient history. It's nice and vague, and so
much easier to sell to the masses. The Bucharest Treaty, on the
other hand, is an entirely differnt matter.
>btw, Mr Fear, keep the "MaCarthyite" bullshit for yourself.
You haven't shown it to be bullshit. In fact such a claim can
be backed up using the most creditible human rights organizations
on this planet.
>cheers,
>Marios Dikaiakos
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes,
>Could someone of the Greeks netter give me an idea how many Bulgarians
>are there in Greece nowadays (after all population exchanges, etc.) ?
>Do they have any ethnic / cultural organizations ?
First off you should be aware by now that there are "officially" no
minorities in Greece, so Greek netters can't possibly give you numbers.
Such a census is not permitted by the state.
I can't speak for the Bulgarian population, but I assume its situation
is similar to the Macedonian population, although I am not familiar
with any creditible organizations referring to a Bulgarian minority
in Greece. The Macedonian minority is not permitted to speak its
language publicly, or sing its songs or have community centres
or have newspapers, radio stations or TV stations. Furthermore
it is not permitted to have its own schools, or have its churches
back, or even associate culturally with their brothers and sisters
to the north. It is prevented from forming any political organizations
which might be used to promote its own interests. In fact the
Macedonian minority can't even refer to itself as a Macedonian minority.
To do so invites arrest and criminal charges.
To be fair, the same is true for the Turkish minority as well. So, I
would assume that the situation would be the same for the Bulgarian
minority, should one actually exist in Greece.
>Best regards,
>Plamen
Tell me Plamen, do you wear the name Bliznakov because you are two faced,
or is it just coincidence?
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
From: ang...@scws0.ctstateu.edu
(Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination) writes,
>Oh but the Bulgarians better be well behaved about the
>macedonian issue they'd better.
>Angelos Karageorgiou|The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
>Yeian kai Eytyxeian|mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$
>Live long & Prosper|NO CARRIER
Kalesh, you clever little Grkoman who's father was forced to
learn Bulgarian under gun point. You wouldn't know a Macedonian
if you saw one in the mirror.
BOO!
Lubi Uzunovski
Dimitar Bojanchev [CONTRACTOR]
>>
>>For similar reasons Zhelyu Zhelev (Bulgaria's prezident),
>>diplomatically requested the removal of a couple of Balkan Airlines
>>jetliners named "Macedonia" from the Sofia airport for the time of
>>Mitzotakis' visit, a few months ago. The decision was critisized in
>>the papers for going too far in accommodating the guest. A case study
>>in Balkan politics, much ado about a name...
>>
>
> Oh but the Bulgarians better be well behaved about the
>macedonian issue they'd better.
>--
>Angelos Karageorgiou | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
>Yeian kai Eytyxeian | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
>Live long & Prosper | NO CARRIER
You are a loser, Angelos. Please, do not try to be macho cause you are
pathetic.
Dimitar
dim...@gdynamics.Eng.SUN.COM
Hubey
Here's a one screenful glance at the various population assertions of
Macedonia which was a part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire at that
time. Notes are given below;
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Serbian Bulgarian Greek German Turkish
View View View View View
(1899) (1900) (1899) (1905) (1905)
Turks 231,400 489,664 576,600 250,000 --NA--
Muslims --NA-- --NA--- --NA-- --NA-- 1,720,007
Bulgars 57,600 1,184,036 --None-- --None-- 557,734
Serbs 2,048,320 700 --none--- --none--- 167,701
Slavs --NA--- -NA--- 454,700 2,000,000 - NA--
Greeks 201,140 225,152 656,300 200,000 648,962
Albanians 165,620 124,211 --none-- 300,000 -- NA--
Vlachs 74,465 77,267 41,200 100,000 ???
Others 101,875 147,244 91,700 -none-- 77,386
Total 2,880,420 2,248,274 1,820,500 2,850,000 3,176,690
NA= Not Applicable
1) All of them except the Turkish view is from the book:
Short History of Yugoslavia, Darby et al, p.136
2. At the bottom of the page it shows that the various views came from:
Serb View: S. Gopcevic,
Bulgarian View: V. Kancev
Greek View: C. Nicolaides
German View: K. Oestrich (figures are an estimate)
The Turkish stats are from Hilmi Pasha (provided by L. Boyanov);
"In 1905 Hilmi carried out in the three vilayets the first census of the
population since the Turkish conquest, which disclosed the following results:
Muslims 1,720,007, Greeks 648,962; Bulgars 557,734; Serbs 167,701, Jews and
others 77,386, total 3,176,690.... under Greeks (were included) all the
'Patriarchist', whether of Greek, Slavonic or Rumanian speech...
--
--mark--
When an idea is wanting a word can always be found to take its place.
Johann W. von Goethe
Georgios Tsoukalas
As you point out even if 42% of the population were Greek at the time
they have been there much longer than the so called Slavo macedonians.
Because the "Slavomacedoniens" did not exist at the time. They were
considereed Bulgarians. They did not claim the name, let alone the
nationality of a "macedonian". Now you must remeber that there was
a significant number of Greeks in FYROM, whatever it was called then.
You can tell me what happened to them ?? Also given 42% Greek
(Those are the most negative sources you can find) and
later about half of the Greeks there were refugees, that makes the
population of Greeks then about 70% Greek. To add to that after the
exchange of populations with Bulgaria and and Yougoslavia, then basicaly
we have what we have now. Almost nothing but Greeks. Offcourse
acording to the head of VMRO their are about 1 million+ so called
"Macedoniens" Well, he is wrong. There are more than a couple .. and they
are quite comfortably Greek, a couple of millions that is.
>
>I'm not sure that the modern Greeks have any more claim to be cultural
>descendants of the ancient Greeks than any other European nation. Nor
>can we simply ignore the brute fact that Slavic Macedonians have been in
>Macedonia for more than 1,000 years. More than enough time to give them
>the right to call themselves Macedonians and a lot more than many of the
>Greek planters in Aegean Macedonia. The only difference is that it is
>only this latter group who wish to steal the name Macedonian for their
>exclusive use.
>
1000 years of Macedonians !!! You must be stupid. Just find
me a refrence of such a nationality before the turn of the century,
and then talk !! Gee, with all this quoting and re-quoting, couldn't
find a single such line in history.
Offcourse you conviniently forget the presence of Greeks
all the way to Skopjia ... To add to that from an interview of an
Albanian leader, he said that 90% of the villages around Skopjia are
Albanian. You look like a province of Albania to me ...
Offcourse Bulgaria wants to erase the boarders so that the "brothers"
can come together again. Then there's Serbia, wanting to protect
the Serbians there !! Everybody but Greece want a piece of the pie.
Doesn't look like the "Macedonians" were lonely in those 1000 years ...
>I think this means I disagree with Greek foreign policy and dislike the
>incorrect use of ancient history for propaganda purposes...
I beleav that you dislike Greek forein policy.
But useing false history for propaganda is even worse.
>
>: One last word, Andy: precisely because they do not want to be
>: uprooted or enslaved again, the "planted" ones (who have changed
>: the face of Macedonia (and whole Greece) in the last 70 years,
>
>I agree with that, but I'm not sure it's a record I would want to boast about..
Who cares then. You got your share from the exchange of populations.
If they were put into a gheto, that's your problem. They are part of Greek
society. If they were left in Minour asia and Skopia, they probably would
been masacared ...
George
Georgios Tsoukalas
They have also said that this is a religeous war For the orthodox.
What he was trying to do was drag Greece into the war ...
The evidence proves nothing.
>From Time Magazine, October 12, 1992, we have this:
>
>Partly because the Greek position is so preposterous, the suspicion
>persists that the complaint about the name camouflages a revival of
>Greece's own age-old expansionistic ambitions. Several European
>governments have relayed to Washington reports that Mitsotakis has
>secretly discussed the partition of Macedonia with Serbia and
>perhaps with Albania and Bulgaria as well.
>
Wow, things like this have been flying left right and center.
These are peoples opinions.
The evidence proves nothing.
>The New York Times, of November 23, 1992, reports,
>
>The Republic of Macedonia renounced all claims to what is
>now Greek Macedonia, as Athens rightfully insisted. But Greece
>invites bloody mischief by pressuring Macedonia to renounce the name
>that defines it as a distinct country with established boundaries.
>That could tempt Serbia or Bulgaria to assert old territorial claims.
>
Again, there is no proof here either of the Greek intentions.
Only an attempt to explain the happenings.
The evidence proves nothing.
>Reported from Tirana, March 2,1993, ATA reports,
>
>In an interview with the Bulgarian newspaper Kontinent, Macedonian
>President Kiro Gligorov stated that Serbian President Slobodan
>Milosevic and Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis have talked
>about the division of Macedonia. According to reports, Milosevic
>and Mitsotakis have had meetings during which they have spoken
>about an eventual division of Macedonia between their two countries.
>
Now you found an objective source. When Gligorof tried to
ask for recognition, so that war would not Break out. Greece was the first
to gather the sourounding countries, and ensure that boarders would not
change. That brought uncoumfortable instability. They would rather
have been unstable, so they can forse recognition.
The evidence proves nothing.;
>THE WASHINGTON TIMES, June 1993
>
>As 300 U.S. troops prepare to fly to Macedonia as symbolic guardians
>of its security, diplomats have revealed that Serbia tried to persuade
>Greece to partition the new republic. "We have said repeatedly that we
>do not have claims or schemes outside our present borders," a Greek
>Embassy spokesman in Washington said yesterday.
Thanks for the info.
The evidence here proves the Greek intentions. Serbia wanted to
involve Greece into the war. But Greece was not intrested ...
>
>Because of a Turkish minority in Macedonia and possible Greek
>involvement, Turkey is also considered a potential participant in
>any conflict there.
>
Looks to me that the Skopjiens were hoping Turkey would help. Well,
let them go to the hands of the wolves. You are loosing importance,
and you will be insignificant at the end of the war. Turkey will spit
you out then.
>
>
>
>Mr. Michailidis, once again I ask you, do you have any solid
>evidence to support the Greek claim that the Republic of Macedonia
>has territorial pretensions on Northern Greece, or are you merely
>another Greek propagandist trying to cover up your own countries
>regional ambitions?
>
Deaf, blind, and dumb .. either that or you just ignore evidence.
VMRO president stated that there are 1 million "macedonians" in northern Greece
and that their next meeting will be in their new capitol .. Thessalonika !!!
HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR DO YOU WANT IT ???
After you handled that, we'll talk about Gligorof, the star of Vergina,
and a whole collection of others.
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
George Tsoukalas
Plamen Bliznakov
>
>Tell me Plamen, do you wear the name Bliznakov because you are two faced,
>or is it just coincidence?
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Nope, I have one face (which I am not ashamed to show) and one first, one
middle, and one family name ( I don't wear it, though, should I ? ).
Unlike some other people, who would start writing their posting "wearing" one
name, and will end it up, "wearing" another.
Po-
zdrav
to you,
Mike,
i.e.,
Lubi
Plamen
P.S. I hate the personal flame, but this one was asked for :-(
A.T. Fear
: >Andy Fear wrote:
: >
: someone else wrote:
[repetition removed to save bandwidth]
: My experience from last year with this guy:
: He is a slightly better version of Serdar/Mutlu. A micronoic who
: makes a disservice to his country and his field.
: Gregory
I think this means 'I've run out of arguments so I'll resort to insults
instead.'
Andy
A.T. Fear
: Stuff deleted ..
: As you point out even if 42% of the population were Greek at the time
: they have been there much longer than the so called Slavo macedonians.
No a *maximum* figure claimed by the Greek government and disputed by others.
: Because the "Slavomacedoniens" did not exist at the time.
:
They were
: considereed Bulgarians. They did not claim the name, let alone the
: nationality of a "macedonian".
Yet whatever their ethnicity they seem to have had a national
consciousness don't they? - these two things aren't the same. Even if we
accept the 'artifical' consciousness of Greek propaganda why is this any
more 'artificial' than the Macedonian consciousness of the Greek planter
population of Aegean Macedonia?
: Now you must remeber that there was
: a significant number of Greeks in FYROM, whatever it was called then.
Yet to see any evidence that this was the case, though would be
interested if any emerges.
: You can tell me what happened to them ?? Also given 42% Greek
: (Those are the most negative sources you can find)
Actually the most positive ones...
: To add to that after the
: exchange of populations with Bulgaria and and Yougoslavia, then basicaly
: we have what we have now. Almost nothing but Greeks. Offcourse
: acording to the head of VMRO their are about 1 million+ so called
: "Macedoniens
Poulton in his Minority Rights Group book suggests about 200,000
SlavoMacedonians live in Aegean Macedonia. Small but they're there.
" Well, he is wrong. There are more than a couple .. and they
: are quite comfortably Greek, a couple of millions that is.
I assume that this is an attempt to deny the existance of the Slavic
population. The tragedy is that even SlavoMacedonians who want to be
loyal Greek nationals appear to be subject to state persecution when
they dare to mention their ethnic group so it's no wonder they keep
quiet is it?
: >I'm not sure that the modern Greeks have any more claim to be cultural
: >descendants of the ancient Greeks than any other European nation. Nor
: >can we simply ignore the brute fact that Slavic Macedonians have been in
: >Macedonia for more than 1,000 years.
: 1000 years of Macedonians !!! You must be stupid. Just find
: me a refrence of such a nationality before the turn of the century,
: and then talk !!
Once again there seems to be a straight confusion between ethnic and
national consciousness. If you want to look simply for the latter you
will disqualify the existence of 'Greece' for most of history. I should
be careful with this argument it might prove a two-edges sword.
: Offcourse you conviniently forget the presence of Greeks
: all the way to Skopjia ...
Evidence?
: To add to that from an interview of an
: Albanian leader, he said that 90% of the villages around Skopjia are
: Albanian. You look like a province of Albania to me ...
No one denies there's a substantial Albanian population in the Republic
of Macedonia - it's one very good reason why the republic shouldn't be
called Slavo-Macedonia. The big difference here between Macedonia and
Greece in this regard is that Macedonia, unlike Greece, doesn't pretend
not to have ethnic minorities.
Andy
Mark Andrew Hawling
>Message-ID: <27AUG199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes,
>
>>Could someone of the Greeks netter give me an idea how many Bulgarians
>>are there in Greece nowadays (after all population exchanges, etc.) ?
>>Do they have any ethnic / cultural organizations ?
>
>First off you should be aware by now that there are "officially" no
>minorities in Greece, so Greek netters can't possibly give you numbers.
>Such a census is not permitted by the state.
Bulshit. There are minorities, and they live quite comfortably.
>
>I can't speak for the Bulgarian population, but I assume its situation
>is similar to the Macedonian population, although I am not familiar
>with any creditible organizations referring to a Bulgarian minority
>in Greece. The Macedonian minority is not permitted to speak its
>language publicly, or sing its songs or have community centres
>or have newspapers, radio stations or TV stations. Furthermore
>it is not permitted to have its own schools, or have its churches
>back, or even associate culturally with their brothers and sisters
>to the north. It is prevented from forming any political organizations
>which might be used to promote its own interests. In fact the
>Macedonian minority can't even refer to itself as a Macedonian minority.
>To do so invites arrest and criminal charges.
>
Bulshit again .. look up Amnesty international ..
Greece has a white sheet. Ulnike any of our neibours.
>To be fair, the same is true for the Turkish minority as well. So, I
>would assume that the situation would be the same for the Bulgarian
>minority, should one actually exist in Greece.
>
You are full of the crap they load you. The Muslem minority
has churches, political leaders. Their standard of living is higher
than that of Turkey ... What sources woiuld you beleav ???
If you don't beleav international organisations .. then go back
to reading your propaganda sheets.
As for a "macedonian" minority ?! When the Greek boarders were
setled there wasn't anyone known as a "macedonian" national. So were did
they come from ??
>
>>Best regards,
>>Plamen
>
>Tell me Plamen, do you wear the name Bliznakov because you are two faced,
>or is it just coincidence?
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
What a loose mister lubi ?
Regards
George Tsoukalas
Mark Andrew Hawling
>According to Greece, the province of Macedonia which was
>supposedly wholly Greek, was liberated not divided. If in fact
>Macedonia was divided by the Bucharest Peace Accord then there
>are obviously other parts to Macedonia. For if Macedonia is whole
>and exists only in Greece, then surely it could never have been
>divided, similarly, if Macedonia is divided then surely there is more
>to Macedonia than what is in Greece. Curiously, though, the Greek
>government denies this. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
Here is the solution to your problem ...
Your definition of the geographical macedonia differs to ours.
Simply put, look at ancient maps for example.
>
>The first thing to determine is whether Macedonia was actually divided,
>or just liberated. Since there are parts of Macedonia in Albania,
>Bulgaria, as well as the Republic, then I suggest that the Bucharest
>Treaty is a real document which describes the partitioning of the
>Macedonian nation.
Sorry, no mention of a "Macedonian" nation anywere.
If anything from many sencus, we can see Greeks, Bulgarians, Muslems
albanians and others all the way upto Skopjia. NEVER MACEDONIANS.
Simple, but a point always quietly ignored.
> Furthermore we are from time to time referred to
>the existence of a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece,
>most significantly in those parts of Macedonia that were lopped off
>the whole. This would suggest to me that there is strong and ongoing
>evidence to support the claim that Macedonia was divided, and that a
>Macedonian minority now exists in these Macedonian regions.
>
>Why are Greece and Bulgaria denying the existence of a Macedonian
>minority living withing their "parts" of Macedonia? I could be that
>each one is well aware of how it aquired its share of Macedonia, and
>that this information is making them feel insecure The existence of
>the Bucharest Treaty alone, would nullify Greece's slogan-like mantra's
>on Macedonia.
>
Check out some statistics for populations. That will help you.
Also on account of "macedonians" in Greece, like I said, when the
"seperation" occured, there was no nation of Macedonians. After the exchange
of populations, Greeks left the north and came to Greece, Bulgarians
went nort. All is so simple, yet uncomfortable that a so called 100000
macedonians don't even speek, when all other minorities that are much
smaller do so.
>
>-------
>
>>And here's a sample of the VMRO-DPMNE [Internal Macedonian
>>Revolutionary Organisation-Democratic Party for Macedonian
>>National Unity] crap:
>
>-------
>
>>Tanjug, Skopje, April 7 1993
>>After the Serbian nation, the Macedonian nation is the second
>>largest nation in the Balkans with six million people, including
>>two million Macedonians living in Bulgaria and a million and a
>>half in Greece.
>
>How can this possibly be true? Greece has informed the world
>ad vomitum that there is no Macedonian minority living within
>Greek boundaries. In fact there are no minorities at all.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Were did you get this crap ?? If so what are the muslem politicians
doing in the Greek parlament ??
>What problems do you invisage for Greece should minorities
>including a Macedonian minority, actually exist in Greece?
>To what lengths do you thing Greece would go to supress these
>people?
>
Do you truely insist on beleaving that a country
can quieten 20% of it's population, and still rank at the top,
for respecting minorities ???? Let alon other minorities can
speek out freely.
>...
>>Assembly Deputy Speaker Tito Petkovski said that "Greece has
>>received Aegean Macedonia as a gift from the great powers in
>>1913" and that "it has no legitimate rights over that territory".
>-----
>
>Pretty straightforward. If Greece really liberated Macedonia in
>1913, then Macedonia was not really divided as the Bucharest Treaty
>implies, nor can there be a Macedonian minority living in Greece.
>If however there are other parts to Macedonia, as indicated by the
>Treaty, and if the Macedonian minority actually exists, then Greece
>had better start explaining.
I think you have a chance of understanding now.
>
>Thank you very much for posting this. This is precisely the kind
>of stuff that Greek politicians avoid at any cost. They would
>much rather argue ancient history. It's nice and vague, and so
>much easier to sell to the masses. The Bucharest Treaty, on the
>other hand, is an entirely differnt matter.
>
>>btw, Mr Fear, keep the "MaCarthyite" bullshit for yourself.
>
>You haven't shown it to be bullshit. In fact such a claim can
>be backed up using the most creditible human rights organizations
>on this planet.
Please !!!
>
>>cheers,
>>Marios Dikaiakos
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Such is life,
Georgios Tsoukalas
Mark Andrew Hawling
>Message-ID: <1993Aug27.0...@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
>s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Georgios Tsoukalas) writes,
>
>>>Greeks never so much as dreamed of calling themselves Macedonians.
>>>Why all the fuss now? Mr. Michailidis, you are not a Macedonian,
>>>your roots are from Turkey. You now find yourself living in Aegean
>>>Macedonia, formerly referred to by Greeks as Northern Hellas.
>
>>Quite an imagination ... simply put .... census carried out before the
>>turn of the century never found a "macedonian" nation.
>
>Maybe so, but I was right neverthless. At the turn of this century
>Greeks were only a small percentage of the population in Aegean
>Macedonia. Ethnic cleansing and forced immigration as well as forced
>assimilation account for the large Greek presence in the region today.
>Aegean Macedonia is not the indiginous land for all those "Greeks"
>that now fill it. As far as Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian stats,
>you can just put them in your pipe and smoke them. Stats are only
>as honest as the people who take them. According to your stats we
>don't exist. I'd say your stats are somewhat dishonest.
>But then why listen to me, you've already proven to yourself that
>I'm not real. You Greeks are so alarmingly clever.
>
There are Turkis, and even German occupiers statistics.
But even whithout thise. THERE IS NO MENTION IN ANY TYPE OF
MEDIA OF A MACEDONIAN NATIONALITY BEFORE THE TURN OF THE
CENTURY. This is such a simple concept, why cant't you get it ???
>>They did find Greeks though way into FYROM .. So it's a pretty simple
>>guess as to who has a better chance of existance. One's for sure.
>>Macedonian nation is nowere to be found. Greeks though were quite common.
>
>Well golly Georgios, why bother going through all this trouble if
>Macedonians don't exist. I am interested though, according to your
>stats they found Greeks all the way into FYROM, and according to
>Mitsotakis latest election efforts, Macedonians are Greeks. Wouldn't
>your stats then indicate that there was a Macedonian nation? I suppose
>those poor absent minded Greeks all the way into FYROM forgot that
>they were Macedonians, hence no Macedonian nation on your honest
>Greek stats. Boy, it's a good thing Mitsotakis set the historical
>record straight.
>
All the way into what is now FYROM, I am talking at the start
and before the century.
>>That's why you have sities like Skopia with Greek names and of course
>>Monastiri (I don't know what you have named it know) was entirely a
>>BIG greek City ... were did they go ???
>
>Skopje comes from the Roman Scupi while Manastir is what the Turks
>referred to Bitola as because of the large number of Slavonic
>Christian Monastaries in the area.
Skopjia is means outpost. That name is Greek.
Monastiri is also a Greek word. there were 150000 Greeks there
at one time, during Turkish statistics.
>
>>Greeks must be very efficient to supress hundreds of thousands, a
>>significant persenntage of the population and still make it at the
>>Top of the Amnesty International countries for respecting minorities...
>
>It would be surprising if it were true, but the unfortunate truth is
>that just about everyone is aware of the treatment of minorities in
>Greece. That's why Amnesty international claims that Greece has
>the worst human rights record of all the countries in the European
>Community. Now that the Eastern Block has been replaced by democracies
>Greece's human rights record continues to plummet. See, Amnesty's report
>
>GREECE: Violations of the right to freedom of expression.
>November 1992, AI Index: EUR 25/15/92,
CRAP CRAP, you are a liar. Print it up if you don't fear.
Greece came 5th in the world in respecting human rights in the last report.
>
>>So eith Greeks are surpressing them .... sure .. or they are not there.
>>Gee the truth hurts :)
>
>>George Tsoukalas
>
>Yes George, they are supressing them, and you're right, the truth does
>hurt. I hope that on the one hand you'll read the report, less than
>a year old, on the abuses of minorities by the Greek state, and at the
>same time, if you could please post Amnesty's article indicating that
>Greece has made it to the top of the Human Rights list. I'd be very
>curious to see it. If it actually exists, that is.
>
Klase mas .. you's the one that quoted an article.
What I say is that the Greeks abuses are nonexistant. You say they
exist, you should print it. I have nothing to print. I mean you must have
had it there to quote dates and sections :-) Either that or you got a report
heading from a neibour of ours and replaced the name of Greece.
Trust me, people like Andy fear and Serdar Argic have posted volumes of Crap, but when mentioning AMnesty international they are quite vague. Why
dont they go to the trouble of posting what would appear to be the damning evidence of opression of 20% of the population !!!
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Aaaare Lubi .. it should hurtr you ... it's the truth :-)
regards
Georgios Tsoukalas
Mark Andrew Hawling
>Message-ID: <1993Aug27....@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
>s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Georgios Tsoukalas) writes,
>
>>In article <60.739.515...@canrem.com>
>>mike....@canrem.com (MikeVanier) writes:
>
>>>If your argument is, that the Republic of Macedonia is making
>>>territorial claims on Greece, then I suggest you come up with some
>>>solid evidence. A fifty year old communist document no longer holds
>>>water. Why is Greece supposedly afraid of a country one fifth its
>>>size possessing virtually no military capability? The argument that
>>>you and others present is simply not credible.
>
>>Geee, you must be blind and deaf. there are hundreds of quotes
>>especialy from the opposition in parlament about the status of the
>>northern province of macedonia.
>
>Golly, wally, I'm neither blind nor deaf. But you must be illiterate
>or arthritic. With "hundreds of quotes", to choose from you couldn't be
>bothered to post a single one of them?
Golly time for you to catch up like you say below ...
>
>>>The only time Macedonia was not officially referred to by that
>>>name was after its partitioning in 1913 until the end of the
>>>Second World War.
>
>>Macedonia as you put it has never been called that. Only the
>>province has been called that.
>
>Wrong Georgios, that's why you have parts of Macedonia in Albania,
>Bulgaria and Greece as well as the Republic. It's a fact. look it
>up and live with it. The Greek province of Macedonia which Macedonians
>refer to as Aegean Macedonia is only a section of Macedonia, it's
>not the whole thing. Have you ever heard of the Bucharest Treaty?
Macedonia as a country never existed ..
Agean Macedonia as a discriptive term is a propagandist tool.
>
>>Offcourse you regect the almost official position in Skopjia but
>>The Greek official position that Boarders should not change under any
>>circumstances you ignore !!.
>
>It's been widely reported by other countries that Greece has
>been trying to partition the Republic of Macedonia. Apparently
>Greece has conducted dialogues with Albania, Bulgaria and
>Serbia. Why should I believe the Greek position now?
Xestikame ...
Well a little bird told me that .. Elvis is alive.
>
>>the name Agean Macedonia was "imposed on the Greek macedonia,
>>it's not an accepted definition.
>
>The term Aegean Macedonia or Aegae, was used to describe that
>region long before it was ever referred to as Greek Macedonia.
>Such a definition has never been imposed. It is a purely
>descriptive term, used by the indiginous Macedonian population.
>The term is foreign to Greeks because Greeks are foreign to
>Macedonia.
Macedonians are forein to reality.
>
>>You assume that his family has been living in the regeon for a few
>>generations. I have not heard him say so.
>
>We've already been through this. It's time for you to play catch-up.
Sure you branded him Albanian, becasue you are not comfortable with
the idea. NOBODY was macedonian national before a couple of Grenarations
ago. Simple. Greeks did exist in the regeon, is that a problem in your model ?
>
>>Greeks have been around for a few mellinium. Greeks always
>>felt to be the decendents of the ancient Macedoniens.
>>You just havn't been hearing about it, because it has not
>>been considered appropriate information by your superiors.
>
>Give me a break Georgios. Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch
>the US State Department all report the abuses inflicted by the
>Greek state on the Macedonian minority, yet Greeks constantly
>claim that Greece is at the top for human rights. I think there
>may be a few things that your superiors are not informing you of.
I read it on Australian papers as well. Offcousre Greeks
have infiltrated everywere.
>
>As far as Greeks being around for a few millenium, well it just
>aint so. The ancient Hellenic tribes are long gone. Mitsotakis
>has yet to prove that modern day Greeks are the direct descendents
>of the ancient Hellenes. Although most Greeks just take such things
>for granted. They've been brainwashed to do so since birth.
>
Hey I can still read Homer .. you go read .. well
forget it, you have regected your parent nationality.
>>There is no ethnic Group known as "Greek-Macedonians"
>
>I'm well aware of that, It's Mitsotakis who seems confused.
Again Bull .. gee you learned to type his name
Now find out were he said what.
>
>>There are a few questions that your model can't handle. One.. why
>>hasn't there been any mention of a macedonian ethnicity
>>by any sencus. For example the turks ran a census at the turn of
>>the century and counted great numbers of Greeks all the way upto
>>Skopjia, were did they go?
>
>Macedonians were classified as Bulgarians, or Serbs by the Turkish
>census because they were lumped with the other Slavic speakers.
>The existence of a separate Macedonian ethnic group has been known for
>over a century. It was the greed of the Greek, Serbian, and Bulgarian
>states that falsified the census'. Each one was vying for its own
>chunk of Macedonian territory.
>
Yea, yea .. nice defence., Now find me a refrence of a macedoinian
nationality .. just one ..
maebe the "Macedonians" clumped themselfs as Bulgarians.
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Georgios Tsoukalas
A.T. Fear
: Bulshit. There are minorities, and they live quite comfortably.
:
I suppose that depends on what you think of Greek prison conditions...
: Bulshit again .. look up Amnesty international ..
Funny I seem to remember two recent Amnesty papers condemning Greek
actions as a violation of the right to free speech...
: >To be fair, the same is true for the Turkish minority as well. So, I
: >would assume that the situation would be the same for the Bulgarian
: >minority, should one actually exist in Greece.
: You are full of the crap they load you. The Muslem minority
: has churches, political leaders. Their standard of living is higher
: than that of Turkey ... What sources woiuld you beleav ???
How about the Minority Rights Group, Helsinki Watch etc...
: As for a "macedonian" minority ?! When the Greek boarders were
: setled there wasn't anyone known as a "macedonian" national. So were did
: they come from ??
They didn't they were always there - it's most of the Greeks who are the
newcomers.
Andy
Luben Boyanov
>bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes,
>
>>Could someone of the Greeks netter give me an idea how many Bulgarians
>>are there in Greece nowadays (after all population exchanges, etc.) ?
>>Do they have any ethnic / cultural organizations ?
>I can't speak for the Bulgarian population, but I assume its situation
>is similar to the Macedonian population, although I am not familiar
>with any creditible organizations referring to a Bulgarian minority
>in Greece.
Your lack of wish to look at the data provided by the predecsessor of the
UN (the League of Nations, I think) in 1922 doesn`t improve your stand in
public debates. The creation of a Macedonian nation in this century is
well documented fact. Even better documented is the lack of such in the
last century. A very interesting point is that the so called Slavophones
in Greece DON"T speak the Vardar Macedonian Language but they DO speak
Bulgarian language. This is according to all travelers in Northern Greece
who have talked to the "Slav" speaking people there. And it is also a fact,
that there are people who still consider themselves Bulgarians. Of
course, the Macedonian propaganda (Serbian in fact) was not so dangerous
for Greece until recently, adn it was even allowed in small/reasonable scale...
> The Macedonian minority is not permitted to speak its
>language publicly,
You mean speaking Bulgarian language.
> or sing its songs
You mean the songs collected by Miladinovi Brothers and published in 1861
under the title "Bulgarian Folk songs"?
>which might be used to promote its own interests. In fact the
>Macedonian minority can't even refer to itself as a Macedonian minority.
It is undisputed that this minority was called and used to call itself
Bulgarian. The most interesting thing is that it has kept its langauge :-)
>Tell me Plamen, do you wear the name Bliznakov because you are two faced,
>or is it just coincidence?
>Lubi Uzunovski
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King
Regards
Luben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Georgios Tsoukalas
>
>: As for a "macedonian" minority ?! When the Greek boarders were
>: setled there wasn't anyone known as a "macedonian" national. So were did
>: they come from ??
>
>They didn't they were always there - it's most of the Greeks who are the
>newcomers.
Seems you are missing the point. What I mean is that when the
borders were settled, nobody was known anywere in the world to have a
"macedonian" ethnicity. Yes there were other minorities, that were
non Greek in Greece. But there were Greek minorities to the nort,
in all out neibours countries.
>
>Andy
George
Mike Vanier
ch...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mark Andrew Hawling), writes,
Mike Vanier
ch...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mark Andrew Hawling), writes,
>>According to Greece, the province of Macedonia which was
Mike Vanier
ch...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mark Andrew Hawling), writes,
>>Greece's human rights record continues to plummet. See, Amnesty's
>>report GREECE: Violations of the right to freedom of expression.
>CRAP CRAP, you are a liar. Print it up if you don't fear. Greece came
>5th in the world in respecting human rights in the last report.
Just for you, Giorgos.
Amnesty International GREECE: Violations of the right to freedom of
expression. November 1992 AI Index: EUR 25/15/92 Distr: REL SC/GP/CO
International Secretary, 1 Easton Street, London WC1X 8DJ
Amnesty International is becoming increasingly concerned about a
growing
Mike Vanier
>In article <60.821.515...@canrem.com>
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes:
>>I can't speak for the Bulgarian population, but I assume its situation
>>is similar to the Macedonian population, although I am not familiar
>>with any creditible organizations referring to a Bulgarian minority
>>in Greece.
>Your lack of wish to look at the data provided by the predecsessor of the
>UN (the League of Nations, I think) in 1922 doesn`t improve your stand in
>public debates.
My friends and relatives are the living data. We certainly don't
need to be told by the likes of you what ethnicity we
Plamen Bliznakov
>Still, can you imagine that there are
>relatives of the first (and I think - long time) Chairman of the IMRO
>(as you may guess, memebers of IMRO at that time were Dame Gruev, Gyorche
>Petrov and later Goce Delchev) Dr. Hristo Tatarchev?
Ivan Tatarchev, who is the general prosecutor (equivalent of the US
attorney general) of Bulgaria, from what I understood from a publication,
is currently at the MPO convention in Toronto. A unique possibility
for Lubi Uzunovski to meet him in person and get answers to all of
his questions regarding the "Macedonian minority" in Bulgaria, and
"attitude of the Bulgarian authorities against it" (according to
RFE/RL, Ivan Tatarchev was supervising the operation of the Bulgarian
police, when a demonstration of OMO Ilinden to the tomb of Jane
Sandanski was stopped). BTW, the Chairman of the Bulgarian high court
is also at this convention.
>Or maybe you have any idea about the relatives of Miladinovi Brothers?
From BIP news recently I understood that the grand-grandson of Dimitar
Miladinov was raising the flag at a literary competition in the Republic
of Macedonia, a competition under the patronage of the president of the
Republic Kiro Gligorov.
>Or maybe those of Kuzman
>Shapkarev? Or maybe of Todor Alexandrov?
The daughter of Todor Alexandrov, Maria Koeva, is among the leadership
of VMRO-Union of Macedonian Brotherhoods (in Bulgarian the abbreviation
used is SMD) in Sofia, an organization which is extremely pro-Bulgarian
and anti-Macedonist. Right now Maria Koeva also attends the MPO convention
in Toronto.
Best regards,
Plamen
Mike Vanier
"We, the undersigned, have a view radically opposed to that of the
government and official political world on national issues, the question
of former Yugoslav Macedonia and the dangers threatening our country...
We are of the firm belief that a dirty game is being played behind our
backs, which even if it does not end in a war, will have painful
consequences on all of our lives. Government, the political executive,
well-paid journalists, generals and bishops are trying to persuade us
we're in danger. They present a picture of a Greece suffocated from all
sides which is creating insecurity and fear in Gre
Mike Vanier
ch...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mark Andrew Hawling), writes,
>>Greece's human rights record continues to plummet. See, Amnesty's
>>report GREECE: Violations of the right to freedom of expression.
>CRAP CRAP, you are a liar. Print it up if you don't fear. Greece came
>5th in the world in respecting human rights in the last report.
Just for you, Giorgos.
Mike Vanier
need to be told by the likes of you what ethnicity we are.
>The creation of a M
Luben Boyanov
>Subject: Re: UN: RE: MORE ANTI-MACEDONIAN LIES
>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov), writes,
>
>>In article <60.821.515...@canrem.com>
>>mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes:
>
>>>I can't speak for the Bulgarian population, but I assume its situation
>>>is similar to the Macedonian population, although I am not familiar
>>>with any creditible organizations referring to a Bulgarian minority
>>>in Greece.
>
>>Your lack of wish to look at the data provided by the predecsessor of the
>>UN (the League of Nations, I think) in 1922 doesn`t improve your stand in
>>public debates.
>
>My friends and relatives are the living data.
Amazing argument !!! Problem with it is that it is not only you who have
friends and relatives who are "living data". Another interesting point is
that I've never read anything from the Macedonian movement or famous
Macedonian resembling your relatives. Still, I'd be glad to hear on that
matter, even that I never use personal examples in order not to get into
stupid position like yours. Still, can you imagine that there are
relatives of the first (and I think - long time) Chairman of the IMRO
(as you may guess, memebers of IMRO at that time were Dame Gruev, Gyorche
Petrov and later Goce Delchev) Dr. Hristo Tatarchev? Or maybe you have any
idea about the relatives of Miladinovi Brothers? Or maybe those of Kuzman
Shapkarev? Or maybe of Todor Alexandrov? Or maybe of Vanche Mihailov?
Shall we continue with more Macedonian names who are in history books?
> We certainly don't
>need to be told by the likes of you what ethnicity we
Neither need the other people to be told what ethnicy are they.
Neither is any need to be changed the ethnicy of R. Zhinzifov, G.
Purlichev, Gyourche Petrov, Simeon Radev, Goce Delchev, Dame Gruev and all
other famous names from the region.
The funny point here is that the guy asked for "credible organizations" and
when such was provided, he went to the argument "but my friends...".
Congratulations !
Marios D. Dikaiakos
In article <25imic$r...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cl...@keele.ac.uk (A.T.
Fear) writes :
>
>Times do change you know - should we interpret present Russian actions
>with reference to the Third International??? What you need to produce is
>*contemporary* evidence that the Republic of Macedonia has expansionist
>aims. This has been singularly lacking in any posting supporting the
>Greek government's stance, all we get are assertions with no supporting
>evidence at all. The very fact that you have to rely on this sort of
>MaCarthyite stuff shows the weakness of your case.
>
Recently, I posted a reference which was disputed by an apparently
FYROMian netter who, above all, was insulted because I referred to Kiro
Gligorov (the president of FYROM, ex-communist leader and ex-member of
the bulgarian fascist youth in the '30s), without mentioning his presi-
dential title!! Well, dictatorial and communist regimes like the one
established in FYROM are known for nurturing such wheedlers. Anyway..)
Here are some other remarks by FYROM officials,
which I dedicate to Kiro "call me president" Gligorov-affectionados
like Mr Fear:
cheers,
Marios
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The following passages are translated excerpts from the article: "The
policy of Skopje towards Greece" by Dr. Kyriakos Kentrotis, published in
the magazine "Ellopia", 9, Feb.-March 1992. Dr. Kentrotis is professor
of Philosophy and Political Sciences in the University of
Kaiserslautern, Kaiserslautern, Germany. The references are numbered
according to the article and no additional emphasis has been added.
"[... The policy of Skopje versus Greece is developed along several
directions which include:]
2. The systematic cultivation of a revanchist spirit and the associated
projection of territorial claims of Skopje against Greece.
This policy is developed either directly, with official statements of
the Skopjan leaders and declarations of the local parties, or
indirectly, with the circulation of historical maps of a united
Macedonia and the systematic use of Slavic names for the Northern Greek
cities and villages.
The President of the Republic of Skopje, Kiro Gligorov, in an interview
to the Belgrade magazine "NIN" (2) stressed the following point: "We
have
a great struggle before us to let the world and the Balkans know the
truth for the parts of the macedonian people who live in Serbia, Greece,
and Bulgaria, a people which was divided and enslaved after the end of
the Balkan Wars. For the leading macedonian nationalist parties it is
only a matter of days before the macedonian power will retrace the
borders of Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia".
Lupco Georgievski, President of V.M.R.O., the largest nationalist party
in the Republic of Skopje, has repeatedly made provocative statements,
like the following: "I support the spiritual and territorial unity of
Macedonia".(3). "The Aegean Macedonia, the Pirin Macedonia, and the
Vardar
Macedonia do not constitute the Greater Macedonia, but simply the
Macedonia. We will be talking about the Greater Macedonia when we ask
for Belgrade, Sofia, Thessaloniki, Avlon, etc".(4) "The Balkan Wars led
to
the division of Macedonia among Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece. Our fate
is the same as the Kurds': the people of Macedonia lies among three
inimical states".(5)
The Prime Minister of the state of Skopje, Nikola Kliusev, recently
declared that: "after many centuries of refusal, nonrecognition,
pressure, and division, the macedonian people is now before a historical
act: to decide alone for his future, to decide for an independent, and
dominant Macedonia."(6)
Vasil Tupurkovski, representative of the "Republic of Macedonia" in the
Central Committee of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, has at various times
made comments like the following: "The Macedonian state will have as its
primary goal the liberation of the enslaved Macedonians and the
unification of the greater macedonian space".(7) "Macedonia never had
any
territorial ambitions against its neighbors; the fact that it supports
the human and national rights of Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria does
not allow anybody to doubt the existence of a whole nation that lived in
the Balkans for centuries".(8) He made statements of similar content in
an
interview to the CNN channel based in Atlanta, GA, on September 27th,
1991, referring mainly to the "macedonian" minority that lives under
oppression in Greece.
The V.M.R.O. party in its 1st Congress in Prelep, on April 6, 1991,
decided among others that: "the goal of the party is the creation of
anindependent and united Macedonia, while the next Congress will take
place in Thessaloniki".9 [Thessaloniki is the second largest city in
Greece].
[...]
References:
^^^^^^^^^^^
2. NIN, February 1991 issue
3. Belgrade newspaper "Borba", November 31, 1990
4. TV Channel "Novosti", November 7, 1990
5. French newspaper "Figaro", June 1, 1991
6. Statements in the "Borba" newspaper [see 3.], September 5, 1991
7. Toronto newspaper "Macedonian Heritage", January 20th, 1991
8. TANJUG news agency, September 6, 1991
Mike Vanier
>It is undisputed that this minority was called and used to call
>itself Bulgarian. The most interesting thing is that it has kept its
>langauge :-)
I'm sorry, Luben, but that claim has been well disputed for over
a century. Didn't you know?
>Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance
>and conscientious stupidity.
> Martin Luther King
I suppose that a well educated racist would come a close second.
>Regards
Luben Boyanov
>In article <14...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes...
>>Still, can you imagine that there are
>>relatives of the first (and I think - long time) Chairman of the IMRO
>>(as you may guess, memebers of IMRO at that time were Dame Gruev, Gyorche
>>Petrov and later Goce Delchev) Dr. Hristo Tatarchev?
>
>Ivan Tatarchev, who is the general prosecutor (equivalent of the US
>attorney general) of Bulgaria, from what I understood from a publication,
>is currently at the MPO convention in Toronto.
And he is not the only one from the Tatarchev's family (which came from
Resen). I lived for 27 years in the same block of flats with another
Tatarchev - also descendant of Dr. Hristo Tatrachev. And to my best
knowledge there is a third cousin in the UK - somewhere in Kent...
> A unique possibility
>for Lubi Uzunovski to meet him in person and get answers to all of
>his questions regarding the "Macedonian minority"
Or maybe Mike Viener will use the oportunity :-) Aren't they twins (or at
least double [something] :-) ) ?
>>Or maybe you have any idea about the relatives of Miladinovi Brothers?
>
>From BIP news recently I understood that the grand-grandson of Dimitar
>Miladinov was raising the flag at a literary competition in the Republic
>of Macedonia, a competition under the patronage of the president of the
>Republic Kiro Gligorov.
That's interesting. I had in mind Elisaveta and MIlka Miladinovi who are
amongst those who reestablished the Macedonian Scientific Institute in
Sofia. As far as I remeber, the materials of this institute (when it was
closed by the communists after 1944) were transferred to Skopie, but
obviously the Skopie censure and the lack of free press in Vardar Macedonia
[still] doesn't allow the people there to read what trasferred under the
orders of Stalin-TIto from Sofia to Skopie. And it is a pity, as in
"Macedonian Review", year VI, Number 1, there are 2 articles by Tz.
Miladinova-Aleksieva (pp 145-6 and 147-51) on D. Miladinov. There is also
an article by the same author on the same subject in "Macedonian Review",
year VI, number 2 (pp 154-6). Of course, in Vardar Macedonia there is a
lot of Serbian literture and magazines (despite the obvious treath for
military invasion from the north) but Bulgarian (despite that all Skopie
allegations for some imaginative troops in Pirin Macedonia were disperced
by the military attaches in Bulgaria who were invited to check the region)
are still not allowed in the country (and even more - the correspondent of
the newspaper "Macedonia" was beaten and his camera and materials were taken
away in well organized action). Clear evidence for "democracy" and freedom
of press and expression.
>>Or maybe those of Kuzman
>>Shapkarev? Or maybe of Todor Alexandrov?
>
>The daughter of Todor Alexandrov, Maria Koeva, is among the leadership
>of VMRO-Union of Macedonian Brotherhoods
And Prof. Dr. P. Shapkarev is editor in chief of the present "Macedonian
Review" :-)
BTW, for those who are interested in "Macedonian Preview" (issued by the
Macedonian Scientific Institute, which was established in Sofia in 1923),
they can subscribe for it on the following address:
Macedonian Review
3rd April Str. (Pirotska Str) No. 5
Sofia 1000
Bulgaria
>Plamen
Mark Andrew Hawling
>Georgios Tsoukalas (s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au) wrote:
>: Stuff deleted ..
>
>: As you point out even if 42% of the population were Greek at the time
>: they have been there much longer than the so called Slavo macedonians.
>
>No a *maximum* figure claimed by the Greek government and disputed by others.
>
>
>: Because the "Slavomacedoniens" did not exist at the time.
>:
> They were
The people that now are claimed to be "Macedonians" exist.
But there were no "Slavomacedonians" or any nationality with "Macedonia" in
it at the turn of the century. Soooooo simple. That should be clear.
>: considereed Bulgarians. They did not claim the name, let alone the
>: nationality of a "macedonian".
>
>Yet whatever their ethnicity they seem to have had a national
>consciousness don't they? - these two things aren't the same. Even if we
>accept the 'artifical' consciousness of Greek propaganda why is this any
>more 'artificial' than the Macedonian consciousness of the Greek planter
>population of Aegean Macedonia?
Because the Greeks that are from minour Asia recognise them selfs
as that. They don't claim to be Macedonians. You continualy state that
Greece has it's own version of propaganda and falsification of history.
What is that and were have you read it ? You generalise so convinienty.
>
>: Now you must remeber that there was
>: a significant number of Greeks in FYROM, whatever it was called then.
>
>Yet to see any evidence that this was the case, though would be
>interested if any emerges.
Even you have produced evidence that they existed in what is now
called FYROM. I am not refering to possible Greeks in FYROM now,
I am refaring to Greeks that lived in the area at the turn of the century,
and came south with the exchange of the populations.
>
>: You can tell me what happened to them ?? Also given 42% Greek
>: (Those are the most negative sources you can find)
>
>Actually the most positive ones...
>
>
>: To add to that after the
>: exchange of populations with Bulgaria and and Yougoslavia, then basicaly
>: we have what we have now. Almost nothing but Greeks. Offcourse
>: acording to the head of VMRO their are about 1 million+ so called
>: "Macedoniens
>
>Poulton in his Minority Rights Group book suggests about 200,000
>SlavoMacedonians live in Aegean Macedonia. Small but they're there.
Who's he ?? Never heard of him. What does Amnesty international say ?
And the other international groups. Show me an internationaly
recognised document please.
>
>" Well, he is wrong. There are more than a couple .. and they
>: are quite comfortably Greek, a couple of millions that is.
>
>I assume that this is an attempt to deny the existance of the Slavic
>population. The tragedy is that even SlavoMacedonians who want to be
>loyal Greek nationals appear to be subject to state persecution when
>they dare to mention their ethnic group so it's no wonder they keep
>quiet is it?
You should know their tragedy, and feal for them ... find them
now.
>
>
>: >I'm not sure that the modern Greeks have any more claim to be cultural
>: >descendants of the ancient Greeks than any other European nation. Nor
>: >can we simply ignore the brute fact that Slavic Macedonians have been in
>: >Macedonia for more than 1,000 years.
>
>
>
>: 1000 years of Macedonians !!! You must be stupid. Just find
>: me a refrence of such a nationality before the turn of the century,
>: and then talk !!
>
>
>Once again there seems to be a straight confusion between ethnic and
>national consciousness. If you want to look simply for the latter you
>will disqualify the existence of 'Greece' for most of history. I should
>be careful with this argument it might prove a two-edges sword.
>
Ok, then under any degfinition has there any been a refrence of any
type of macedonian existance as a separate people rather than residents of
a geographic area ? I cannot be more general can I ?
>
>: Offcourse you conviniently forget the presence of Greeks
>: all the way to Skopjia ...
>
>Evidence?
Again I mean Greek existance before the turn of the century. Current
numbers are another argument.
>
>: To add to that from an interview of an
>: Albanian leader, he said that 90% of the villages around Skopjia are
>: Albanian. You look like a province of Albania to me ...
>
>No one denies there's a substantial Albanian population in the Republic
>of Macedonia - it's one very good reason why the republic shouldn't be
>called Slavo-Macedonia. The big difference here between Macedonia and
>Greece in this regard is that Macedonia, unlike Greece, doesn't pretend
>not to have ethnic minorities.
>
Bull, Greece never stated they dont have ethnic minorities. They
even have reprsentatives in parlament. What they don't have is a
"Macedonian" minority.
Simply using your model, there never was a people called "Macedonians"
when the borders were drawn. That is somthing that we have settled.
A minority that numbers 200000 simply couldn't exist that's 2% of the
voters in Greece. They must show up somewere, especialy when the
130000 muslems do show up.
>
>Andy
George Tsoukalas
vk...@cas.org
>Mr Andy "fear the greeks" Fear said recently that:
>
>In article <25imic$r...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cl...@keele.ac.uk (A.T.
>Fear) writes :
>>
>>Times do change you know - should we interpret present Russian actions
>>with reference to the Third International??? What you need to produce is
>>*contemporary* evidence that the Republic of Macedonia has expansionist
>>aims. This has been singularly lacking in any posting supporting the
>>Greek government's stance, all we get are assertions with no supporting
>>evidence at all. The very fact that you have to rely on this sort of
>>MaCarthyite stuff shows the weakness of your case.
>>
>Recently, I posted a reference which was disputed by an apparently
>FYROMian netter who, above all, was insulted because I referred to Kiro
>Gligorov (the president of FYROM, ex-communist leader and ex-member of
>the bulgarian fascist youth in the '30s), without mentioning his presi-
>dential title!! Well, dictatorial and communist regimes like the one
>established in FYROM are known for nurturing such wheedlers. Anyway..)
Regardless of what you may have read in the Greek press thare are no fyromians
(no marsians either). And I was not insulted, just pointed to the wording so the
readers can figure out your state of mind. In case you still do not understand
what you did wrong take a course in writing or buy a book about style. Or at
least read the underlined part from YOUR quote from YOUR favorite professor
further bellow and learn something about literacy from him (btw, he does not
seem to believe in Fyromians either).
And you forgot to appologize for misquoting President Gligorov and for
misinterpreting the botched-up translation.
>Here are some other remarks by FYROM officials, which I dedicate to Kiro
>"call me president" Gligorov-affectionados like Mr Fear:
>cheers,
>Marios
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The following passages are translated excerpts from the article: "The
>policy of Skopje towards Greece" by Dr. Kyriakos Kentrotis, published in
>the magazine "Ellopia", 9, Feb.-March 1992. Dr. Kentrotis is professor
>of Philosophy and Political Sciences in the University of
>Kaiserslautern, Kaiserslautern, Germany. The references are numbered
>The President of the Republic of Skopje, Kiro Gligorov, in an interview
==================================================
>to the Belgrade magazine "NIN" (2) stressed the following point: "We
Lets get it straight now: you got a translation into Serbian (or free
interpretation) of President Gligorov's remarks in an interview by a Serbian
magazine, quoted (and translated into Greek) by a Greek in a Greek magazine
and finaly translated by YOU into English. How desperate can you be for a bad
quote?
Please, if you quote president Gligorov again use a verbatim quote from a
reputable paper written in English. And forget about learning anything
useful about Macedonia from the Greek papers. If he really said something that
contains teritorial pretensions toward Greece, that would have been big news
and would have found its way to the reputable English-language papers.
Vasil Babamov
P. S. Dont' forget that appology!
Mike Vanier
( Luben Boyanov), writes,
>>My friends and relatives are the living data.
>Amazing argument !!! Problem with it is that it is not only you who
>have friends and relatives who are "living data". Another
>interesting point is that I've never read anything from the
>Macedonian movement or famous Macedonian resembling your relatives.
This is an unusual argument we are having. The reason I use personal
examples is because you presume to know the "true" ethnicity of the
Macedonian people. My friends and relatives fit into this group
known as Macedonians. We are the raw data that your your "facts" are
based upon. I think you have presumed too much. Macedonians do not
require your "facts" nor are they in need of your analytical skills.
We know who we are, and we know how we got here. We don't have any
qualms about our ethnicity. The problems seem to be coming from our
neighbours, all of whom have some chunk of Macedonia incorporated into
their modern states.
It would be silly for an astronomer to argue with the sun and insist
that it rises in the west. Don't waste your time telling the
Macedonian people about their heritage. You don't have the cultural
background, or the objectivity, for the job.
>Still, can you imagine that there are relatives of the first (and I
>think - long time) Chairman of the IMRO(as you may guess, memebers
>of IMRO at that time were Dame Gruev, Gyorche Petrov and later Goce
>Delchev) Dr. Hristo Tatarchev? Or maybe you have any idea about the
>relatives of Miladinovi Brothers? Or maybe those of Kuzman
>Shapkarev? Or maybe of Todor Alexandrov? Or maybe of Vanche
Mihailov?
You are well aware that Macedonians had limited choices when it came
to schools and churches. My grandfather was educated in a Bulgarian
school, while his brother was educated in a Greek school. These were
our choices, at that time. That is why some of the educated
Macedonians of the last century spoke and wrote in old Bulgarian.
What you are unable to grasp is why the great bulk of Macedonians
resisted being absorbed by foreigners such as Bulgars, Serbs and
Greeks. When you realize this, you and I will no longer argue.
Macedonians are a separate and distinct South Slavonic group. They
are neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. In the last Macedonian census
about 5000 people indicated they were of Bulgarian origin. If only
the Macedonians of Pirin had the same freedom to express their
heritage, as the Bulgars living in the Republic of Macedonia.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <14...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>,
>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes...
>Ivan Tatarchev, who is the general prosecutor (equivalent of the
>US attorney general) of Bulgaria, from what I understood from a
>publication, is currently at the MPO convention in Toronto. A
>unique possibility for Lubi Uzunovski to meet him in person and
>get answers to all of his questions regarding the "Macedonian
>minority" in Bulgaria, and "attitude of the Bulgarian authorities
>against it"
Plamen, are you denying the existence of an ethnic Macedonian
minority in Pirin? A simple yes or no will suffice.
>(according to RFE/RL, Ivan Tatarchev was supervising the operation of
>the Bulgarian police, when a demonstration of OMO Ilinden to the tomb
>of Jane Sandanski was stopped). BTW, the Chairman of the Bulgarian
>high court is also at this convention.
I went to the convention three times. To their credit, the organizers
had done a first class job, as usual, then again this was their 72nd
effort. The dance had about 1200 people in attendance, and roughly
550 tickets were sold for the banquet. The social events were very
successful.
>The daughter of Todor Alexandrov, Maria Koeva, is among the leadership
>of VMRO-Union of Macedonian Brotherhoods (in Bulgarian the abbreviation
>used is SMD) in Sofia, an organization which is extremely pro-Bulgarian
>and anti-Macedonist. Right now Maria Koeva also attends the MPO
>convention in Toronto.
The "Bulgarian hype", was very low key, this year. The odd picture
of Ivan the beast, and a pamphlet discussing human rights abuses
of the "Bulgarian" minority in Greece. In the video section I noticed
a video on Bulgaria, something like a travelogue. The odd slogan,
was visible, e.g. Macedonia:100 years to freedom. The pictures of
the voivodi were overlaid with old Bulgarian text. Still the pictures
were maginficent, for me, they alone were worth the trips. There was
a scare that they had been stolen, but fortunately it turned out
to be a prank.
I looked high and low, for Tatarchev and Koeva. I had some pressing
questions for them. Where were they? Nobody could confirm that
they were there, and I didn't see them introduced.
The political speeches were on the final Monday (Sept. 6). There
were less than 150 people present. The Macedonians in the MPO by
and large are not interested in the Bulgarian hype. They attend
these events strictly for their social value. The guest speakers were
George Kenney who quit the State Department in disgust over US
policy wrt Bosnia, Janusc Bugansi [sp?] from CSIS and an author
called Kaplan. I personally found the speakers very interesting
and very well informed on many Macedonian issues, including
the treatment of Macedonian minorities in the neighbouring states.
A guest contingent, which sat in the middle of the room directly in
front of the podium was not amused. They did not give the speakers
a standing ovation, and went so far as to refuse to applaud them.
This group included a couple of Bulgarian priests. These might have
been the special Bulgarian guests, but when I asked, no one could
confirm it.
Can someone else who attended the convention confirm whether Mara
Koeva or Ivan Tatarchev were present?
>Best regards,
>Plamen
BTW thanks for the BIP reports, I particularly like it when you do
things like interject <sakam> for Iskam, so that those of us who have
difficulty with Bulgarian, can have some chance of understanding
the reports.
Lubi Uzunovski
vk...@cas.org
>In article <25vv76$9...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cl...@keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>>Georgios Tsoukalas (s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au) wrote:
>>: Stuff deleted ..
>>
>>SlavoMacedonians live in Aegean Macedonia. Small but they're there.
>
> Who's he ?? Never heard of him. What does Amnesty international say ?
>And the other international groups. Show me an internationaly
>recognised document please.
>>
Data. I will be glad to provide other "internationally recognized" references
too, if you still have some misgivings.
"Greece, Population(1990) 10 038 000"
"Ethnic Composition(1983) Greek 95.5%, Macedonian 1.5%, Turkish 0.9%, Albanian
0.6% " - Britannica, 1991 World Data p. 606
"Ethnic Composition(1982) Greek 95.5%, Macedonian 1.8%, Turkish 0.9%, Albanian
0.6% )" - Britannica, 1987 World Data
Language - Greece: Greek 9,640,000 Macedonian 150,000 Turkish 90,000 -
-Britannica, 1991 World Data p.759-
"ETHNIC/LINGUISTIC COMPOSITION, ethnic, racial, or linguistic composition of
a national population, reported here according to the most reliable
breakdown available, whether published in official sources (such as census)
or in external analysis (when the subject is not addressed in national
censuses [usually because of social or political sensitivities])" -
Encyclopedia Britannica, 1991 World Data, p.535
>>
>>Andy
>
> George Tsoukalas
>
Vasil Babamov
Plamen Bliznakov
>Message-ID: <4SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>
>>US attorney general) of Bulgaria, from what I understood from a
>>publication, is currently at the MPO convention in Toronto. A
>>unique possibility for Lubi Uzunovski to meet him in person and
>>get answers to all of his questions regarding the "Macedonian
>>minority" in Bulgaria, and "attitude of the Bulgarian authorities
>>against it"
>
>Plamen, are you denying the existence of an ethnic Macedonian
>minority in Pirin? A simple yes or no will suffice.
>
If the things were that simple as yes and no, as black and white...
If you define ethnic Macedonian minority, as group of people who would declare
themselves ethnic Macedonians (for whatever reasons), my answer is YES, there
are such people. No matter why, how and when they came to that position. There
were even interviews with some of them in Bulgarian newspapers over the last
couple of years. I have not met any of them, though. It seems they really are
a MINORITY.
All of the people in/from Pirin Macedonia I have met personally feel themselves
ethnic Bulgarians. So are the greatest majority of the Macedonians in Bulgaria
I have read about, esp. those with a family tradition in the Macedonian
struggle. Moreover, they are more Bulgarian, than Bulgarians from other regions
of the country, esp. when it comes to the Macedonian question. I could refer
you again to the attorney general of Bulgaria Mr. Tatarchev (you would not deny
he is Macedonian, would you ?), or to the leader of the Bulgarian Social-
Democratic Party Dr. Peter Dertliev (born in Veles, currently on the territory
of the newly independent republic), who has been denied several times entry to
the country by the Macedonian authorities as a leader of an official Bulgarian
delegation which was trying to lay flowers at the tomb of Gotse Delchev...
Slav Macedonians... (I am not speaking only about Pirin Macedonia now). Same
people, living in the same place, having same language, traditions, culture,
often blood relationship, but some feel Bulgaro-Macedonians, some ethnic
Macedonians (I am not even talking about Bulgarophone or Slavophone Greeks)...
That's part of the controversy over Macedonia, but that's how it is...
As you see, it's not just black-and-white picture...
>>(according to RFE/RL, Ivan Tatarchev was supervising the operation of
>>the Bulgarian police, when a demonstration of OMO Ilinden to the tomb
>>of Jane Sandanski was stopped). BTW, the Chairman of the Bulgarian
>>high court is also at this convention.
>
<...>
>
>I looked high and low, for Tatarchev and Koeva. I had some pressing
>questions for them. Where were they? Nobody could confirm that
>they were there, and I didn't see them introduced.
I am really sorry you were not able to find them. This could have
opened your eyes for many things :-) I myself don't know a lot.
>
>The political speeches were on the final Monday (Sept. 6). There
>were less than 150 people present. The Macedonians in the MPO by
>and large are not interested in the Bulgarian hype. They attend
>these events strictly for their social value.
Who are "Macedonians" in the MPO ? I though everybody, there is
Macedonian (that's why they are MPO) ?
Best regards,
Plamen
P.S. Thanks for the info about the MPO convention.
Plamen Bliznakov
>BTW thanks for the BIP reports, I particularly like it when you do
>things like interject <sakam> for Iskam, so that those of us who have
>difficulty with Bulgarian, can have some chance of understanding
>the reports.
You are very welcome. I hope, it helps when you get more info. That's why I
have posted it.
BTW, your particular example of an interjected non-Bulgarian word is a bad one.
Because it is not. "Sakam" (want) is used in many Bulgarian dialects. Shopite
(i.e., the Bulgarians in the region around Sofia) use it also. Just like
"misirka" (turkey) is used in many regions, although in literary Bulgarian it's
"pujka". This is not to say that literary Macedonian doesn't have words,
which are not used anywhere in Bulgaria. Just "sakam" is not one of them.
>Lubi Uzunovski
Best regards,
Plamen
Mike Vanier
Message-ID: <9SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>In article <60.885.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (MikeVanier) writes...
>>Plamen, are you denying the existence of an ethnic Macedonian
>>minority in Pirin? A simple yes or no will suffice.
>If the things were that simple as yes and no, as black and white...
>If you define ethnic Macedonian minority, as group of people who
>would declare themselves ethnic Macedonians (for whatever reasons),
>my answer is YES, there are such people.
Then why deny them the freedom to express their culture or speak
their language?
>No matter why, how and when they came to that position. There were
>even interviews with some of them in Bulgarian newspapers over the last
>couple of years. I have not met any of them, though. It seems they
>really are a MINORITY.
If the Bulgarian state, would grant them their cultural freedom
perhaps the minority would blossom to proportions that you wouldn't
even imagine. Unfortunately, that is not the yet the case. However
the Bulgarian people have embarked on a path of democratization.
Perhaps one day, maybe in the near future, all this will be behind us.
>All of the people in/from Pirin Macedonia I have met personally feel
>themselves ethnic Bulgarians.
My experience is the exact opposite. The Pirintsi want the
same thing as the Aegaetsi, that is cultural and linguistic freedom.
How about giving it to them. Think about it. If there are no
Macedonians in Pirin, then granting them permission to maintain their
heritage, should have absolutely no political ramifications.
On the other hand...
>Moreover, they are more Bulgarian, than Bulgarians from other regions
>of the country, esp. when it comes to the Macedonian question.
Why do the Pirintsi need to prove they are more Bulgarian than
the Bulgarians? We see a similar thing taking place in Aegean
Macedonia with the Grkomani.
>I could refer you again to the attorney general of Bulgaria Mr.
>Tatarchev (you would not deny he is Macedonian, would you ?),
Mr. Tatarchev's ethnicity is for him to decide, not you, or me.
>Dr. Peter Dertliev (born in Veles, currently on the territory of the
>newly independent republic),
The independence of Macedonia may be new, but its division is not.
Let me thank you for saying Veles and not Tito Veles. Now, can you
say Gorna Dzumaja?
>who has been denied several times entry to the country by the
>Macedonian authorities as a leader of an official Bulgarian delegation
>which was trying to lay flowers at the tomb of Gotse Delchev...
Goce didn't die fighting for a greater Bulgaria, he, like Yane
Sandanski, died for a free and independent Macedonia. Rather
than beating and arresting us, why not let us place a wreath
on the grave of the Macedonian freedom fighter, Yane Sandanski
in Roglen?
>Slav Macedonians... (I am not speaking only about Pirin Macedonia now).
>Same people, living in the same place, having same language, traditions
>culture, often blood relationship, but some feel Bulgaro-Macedonians,
>some ethnic Macedonians (I am not even talking about Bulgarophone or
>Slavophone Greeks)...
>That's part of the controversy over Macedonia, but that's how it is...
Not quite. Those who don't suffer cultural and linguistic oppression
i.e. the ones in the "newly independent Republic" call themselves
Macedonians. As a matter of fact so do many of those who are prohibited
from doing so by our neighbours.
>I am really sorry you were not able to find them. This could have
>opened your eyes for many things :-) I myself don't know a lot.
I assure you, I looked hard for Tatarchev and Koeva. Where were they?
I regret very much not having had the opportunity to talk with them.
Maybe next time, I can help to open their eyes :-)
>Who are "Macedonians" in the MPO ? I though everybody, there is
>Macedonian (that's why they are MPO) ?
Quite plainly, they are the ones who call themselves Macedonian, as
opposed to the handful who call themselves Bulgarian. It's a
free country here, they can do what they want. I thought I would
just differentiate between them.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.885.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes...
>>BTW thanks for the BIP reports, I particularly like it when you do
>>things like interject <sakam> for Iskam, so that those of us who have
>>difficulty with Bulgarian, can have some chance of understanding
>>the reports.
>You are very welcome. I hope, it helps when you get more info.
>That's why I have posted it.
It does help me, probably many others as well.
>BTW, your particular example of an interjected non-Bulgarian word
>is a bad one. Because it is not. "Sakam" (want) is used in many
>Bulgarian dialects. Shopite (i.e., the Bulgarians in the region
>around Sofia) use it also. Just like "misirka" (turkey) is used in
>many regions, although in literary Bulgarian it's"pujka". This is
>not to say that literary Macedonian doesn't have words, which are
>not used anywhere in Bulgaria. Just "sakam" is not one of them.
Well one man's Bulgarian is another man's Macedonian. I've never
heard in any Macedonian dialect someone say "Iskam" for want.
There is no sense in arguing, as my note was not intended to be
condescending in any way. I truly thought it was considerate
of you to have taken the time to translate a few of the more
uncommon words, so that people, such as myself, could gain a
greater understanding of the BIP reports.
Lubi Uzunovski
Plamen Bliznakov
>>would declare themselves ethnic Macedonians (for whatever reasons),
>>my answer is YES, there are such people.
>
>Then why deny them the freedom to express their culture or speak
>their language?
Wrong question. Nobody in Bulgaria is denied the freedom to speak
his/her language (hey, even speak a foreign language :-)))
Seriously, your claim is not true about Pirin Macedonia (I know it
from personal experience, I have been there, I have talked to local
people). I have also seen a one page article in the Macedonia
weekly, written in the language you would call Macedonian (it
certainly was not literary Bulgarian) by Kosta Ts`rnushanov.
However, the author was calling his language Bulgarian (meaning a
dialect of the Bulgarian). I will try to post it, if I still have
the newspaper around. You also had a guy from Bansko (Pirin
Macedonia) on this newsgroup, who tried to write you in the local
dialect. But you were quick to renounce him as a "Bulgarian agent"
(or was it "missionary").
And also, nobody is stopping anybody from expressing his/her own
culture. The folk ensembles Pirin and Gotse Delchev did exist for
years. This summer I bought in Sofia 2 cassettes : "Makedonski
pesni - Chast 2" (Macedonian Songs - Part 2), and "Folklorni biseri
ot Pirinska Makedonija" (Folk jewels from Pirin Macedonia).
Believe me, these are not underground recordings :-) If you
suspect, these are not Macedonian songs according to your criteria,
I could enlist them. Just to give you an idea : side A of the
first cassette starts with "Jovano, Jovanke", and side B - with
"Mori sokol pie voda na Vardaro". (Now, please, don't try to say I
am a Bulgarian nationalist, who wants Bulgarian army to invade the
Republic of Macedonia and to go to the banks Vardar river, just
because I like these songs. I am not, and I do not, but I do.)
Also, there is a festival exclusively for contemporary Macedonian
folk music "Pirina fest". I loved the recordings from the last
year edition. BTW, from BIP news I understood that a band from Struga
(Vardar Macedonia) will attend this year's festival (may be, I
should not after all stop posting BIP news, especially news from
Pirin Macedonia). If this is not Macedonian culture to you !
It's just that in these cases Macedonian is being just part of
the Bulgarian culture...
And if the proposition of the Bulgarian president Zhelyu Zhelev
from his speech last month about making the border with the
Republic of Macedonia (as well as with the rest of the Balkan
countries) virtually symbolical becomes a reality, there will be
even less obstacles for cultural exchange between Pirin and Vardar
Macedonia. BTW, I think, the fact that the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie
insurrection was celebrated in Bulgaria under the president's
patronage, and with his participation, is a way of promoting
Macedonian heritage (or maybe it's only Bulgarian to you, to me
it's all the same in this case).
So, as you see, your statement, that Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia
don't have the freedom to express their culture or speak their
language, is absolutely wrong. It's only that in Bulgaria for the
vast majority of the people, when it comes to culture Macedonian
most often has a regional meaning (Macedonian as part of
Bulgarian), just as you use Pirintsi to refer to Macedonians from
Pirin Macedonia (or is it a separate nationality to you :-)).
Macedonian has also other meanings depending on the context, it is
used, for example, to refer to something belonging to or coming
from the newly established country. For you Macedonian has _only_
national, ethnic meaning. This is rather political difference, but
has nothing to do with culture or linguistics.
>If the Bulgarian state, would grant them their cultural freedom
>perhaps the minority would blossom to proportions that you wouldn't
>even imagine. Unfortunately, that is not the yet the case.
If to you "cultural freedom" has the same meaning as it has to me
(I think, this is the common-sense meaning) - see above.
If it means "forbid people to say they are Bulgarians, fire from
work those who don't obey, send to prisons and labour camps more
active ones, kill those who still resist afterwards, forbid people
to teach their children they are Bulgarians by ethnicity as an
offense to the Macedonian nation prosecuted by the law, forbid
import on that territory of Bulgarian books and newspapers, forbid
any folk songs where Bulgaria or Bulgarian is mentioned, destroy or
close parts of the archives showing Bulgarian character of the
Macedonian liberation movement and Macedonia in the past (does it
sound familiar ?), bring teachers and newspaper editors from
Yugoslavia, and keep all of this for a couple of generations", then
you are right, there hardly will be any Bulgarians left. However,
that policy of the then ruling Bulgarian communist party was in
effect in Pirin Macedonia just several years. But you should not
count on the adoption of this policy in Bulgaria again. It is only
possible in a totalitarian state, where everything - from police to
parliament, to companies, and to courts is managed from one place.
I believe, these times are over for Bulgaria.
>
>>All of the people in/from Pirin Macedonia I have met personally feel
>>themselves ethnic Bulgarians.
>
>My experience is the exact opposite.
Really ? How many people from there have you met ? And where -
was it in Canada ? Or do you speak only based on what you have
read ? As I said in a previous posting, there are few people in
Pirin Macedonia who consider themselves ethnic Macedonians, and
they do travel around the world, and meet people, and complain
about the "Bulgarian oppression". But if you really believe this
is the overwhelming situation there, you simply delude yourself.
I have also read about Macedonians from the republic who say they
are Bulgarians by ethnicity. I am not writing about Bulgarians who
got married there, I am writing about local guys, like VMRO members
in Ochrid, or like the correspondent of Macedonia weekly Dimitar
Delevski, who was recently beaten and applied for Bulgarian
citizenship, as he felt his life is in danger. But does this
delude me into a conclusion that there exists a Bulgarian majority
in the Republic of Macedonia, but it is oppressed by the
pro-Serbian communist leadership, and not allowed to express its
Bulgarian culture and language ? No, I realize that nowadays there
are really few people over there who think they are Bulgarians by
ethnicity. And I accept it and respect the right of anyone
(including yourself) to be whatever he / she wants. So why cannot
you accept that other people have the same right ?
>The Pirintsi want the
>same thing as the Aegaetsi, that is cultural and linguistic freedom.
>How about giving it to them.
Hey, I am not in a position to give anybody anything :-) I have
nothing, and I am not a president of Bulgaria, nor am I a member of
the parliament nor the government, nor an official in the judicial
system, nor have I any desire to become one (the politics is a
dirty job !). My understanding is, that at this forum everybody
speaks for her/himself. I don't feel I have to represent the
authorities of my country, defend them, blame them, etc., nor they
have to be obliged by any of my statements.
Now to you question... To me, the cultural and linguistic freedom
is there (see above). Well, the local dialects are not studied at
schools (as is not any other Bulgarian dialect), but that's about
the only problem you might be able to find, I guess.
What is really missing, is the political opportunity to make
Macedonist propaganda. There is no problem to declare yourself
ethnic Macedonian, nor there is any problem to travel wherever you
wish and make whatever statements you wish, nor is there any
obstacle to get financial support from abroad. But there is no
opportunity to persuade somebody who thinks of him/herself as an
ethnic Bulgarian to declare him/herself ethnic Macedonian, or to
provoke conflicts with others Macedonians, who stand for their
Bulgarian ethnicity. This is something for which, I think, some of
the Bulgarian authorities are wrong (I think, this is mostly the
attorney general and Macedonian Tatarchev). Why create the nimbus
of the sufferers over the heads of a group of Macedonists when
there are more than enough arguments and documents to prove they
are wrong in a civilized dispute (as far as civilized disputes are
used in the Balkans :-)) ? I guess, some Bulgaro-Macedonians feel
badly offended, but to me that's not the best way to deal with
it... Maybe I am wrong, maybe I don't know and understand, but
that's what I think.
>
>>Moreover, they are more Bulgarian, than Bulgarians from other regions
>>of the country, esp. when it comes to the Macedonian question.
>
>Why do the Pirintsi need to prove they are more Bulgarian than
>the Bulgarians?
You mean, _the rest of_ the Bulgarians :-) BTW, I meant all
Macedonians in Bulgaria, not just from Pirin area (there are a
large number of refugees from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, and
their descendants).
>We see a similar thing taking place in Aegean Macedonia with the
>Grkomani.
Exactly ! We also see it with you, as you try to prove to the
world (or, maybe, to yourself) that you are not Bulgarian. That's
just how the people act : they stand for their believes. I see
just 3 differences between the Bulgaro-Macedonians on one hand, and
you and Gr`komani (as you call them, or Slavophone / Bulgarophone
Greeks, as would they are called in Greece):
1) You never suffered for saying you are not Bulgarian. On the
contrary, Bulgaro-Macedonians were prosecuted for the opposite,
even in Bulgaria. For example, the current leader of the Bulgarian
VMRO-SMD Stojan Bojadzhiev spent several years in the labour
camps in Zagrad, Nozharevo, Belene, and Debovo after the communists
in Bulgaria took power and declared all Macedonian population
"non-Bulgarian".
2) Bulgaro-Macedonians never had the incentive to insist on their
Bulgarian nationality. On the contrary, being Yugoslav citizen had
certain advantages - much higher freedom of travel, and better
economic situation (not even to mention Greece).
3) Many of the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians come from prominent
Macedonian families, who were involved in the Macedonian liberation
movement. They were exposed since their childhood to much
information about the Macedonian question and history.
>
>>I could refer you again to the attorney general of Bulgaria Mr.
>>Tatarchev (you would not deny he is Macedonian, would you ?),
>
>Mr. Tatarchev's ethnicity is for him to decide, not you, or me.
Again, we have this communication problem. I am not talking about
Mr.Tatarchev's ethnicity, he for a long ago stands for his
Bulgarian ethnicity, and also suffered for that. Even after the
policy of the Bulgarian communist party on the Macedonian question
changed, he was not allowed to come to live to Sofia (or another
big Bulgarian city). Under Macedonian I meant "a person from
Macedonia, whose family was deeply involved in Macedonian liberation
movement, and the history of Macedonia". That's it, Lord save me
from deciding somebody's ethnicity !
>
>>Dr. Peter Dertliev (born in Veles, currently on the territory of the
>>newly independent republic),
>
>The independence of Macedonia may be new, but its division is not.
>Let me thank you for saying Veles and not Tito Veles.
Oh, Dr. Dertliev is over 60, he could not have been born in Titov
Veles, it was just Veles then.
>Now, can you say Gorna Dzumaja?
I have no problems with that. Even many Bulgarians currently use
it. Now in Bulgaria everything communist-related is abusive
language for many, esp. in Pirin Macedonia. And I know they are
working on changing the name of Blagoevgrad. However, many of the
citizens don't want the Turkish name Dzumaja to be restored. There
were 4 or 5 options under consideration, I remember one of them was
Pirin, one was to restore the name Gorna Dzumaja. But I don't know
what is the current status of this effort.
>
>>who has been denied several times entry to the country by the
>>Macedonian authorities as a leader of an official Bulgarian delegation
>>which was trying to lay flowers at the tomb of Gotse Delchev...
>
>Goce didn't die fighting for a greater Bulgaria, he, like Yane
>Sandanski, died for a free and independent Macedonia.
Right. However, that did not make them less Bulgarians. Don't mix
statehood and ethnicity. One can be ethnic German, and speak
German, but be a citizen of free and independent Switzerland. As
well one can be a French Swiss, or a Italian Swiss, etc. So why
Bulgaro-Macedonian is not acceptable to you ?
>Rather
>than beating and arresting us, why not let us place a wreath
>on the grave of the Macedonian freedom fighter, Yane Sandanski
>in Roglen?
I bet you were never beaten and arrested by the Bulgarian police :-)
Moreover, unlike me, you have never been at the grave of Jane
Sandanski. Otherwise you should have known that it is at the
monastery near Rozhen (in Cyrillic, P O >|< E H) village, not
Roglen. As far as the incident with the Macedonist organization
Ilinden is concerned, as I mentioned earlier, I would have not used
police force against them. But that's me, I don't know a lot, and
certainly I am not in any position to decide. This is why I
referred you to Mr. Tatarchev, he was right on the spot, at the
monastery, and was honoring Jane Sandanski. And he also is general
prosecutor of Bulgaria, he is in a position to decide that some
meeting is against some of Bulgarian laws, and can make the police
prevent it. And he also is Macedonian (_here I am not using the
word in the ethnic sense which seems to be the only acceptable to
you_), so, I guess, he takes all this very personally.
>
>>Slav Macedonians... (I am not speaking only about Pirin Macedonia now).
>>Same people, living in the same place, having same language, traditions
>>culture, often blood relationship, but some feel Bulgaro-Macedonians,
>>some ethnic Macedonians (I am not even talking about Bulgarophone or
>>Slavophone Greeks)...
>>That's part of the controversy over Macedonia, but that's how it is...
>
>Not quite.
Nope, that's _exactly_ how it is.
>Those who don't suffer cultural and linguistic oppression
>i.e. the ones in the "newly independent Republic" call themselves
>Macedonians.
Oops, better don't start this discussion. Because I know
"Makedonsko devojche" from my student years, but I doubt you know
another Macedonian song, "Dafino mome", where Dafina says she is so
beautiful because she was born to a Bulgarian mother.
>As a matter of fact so do many of those who are prohibited
>from doing so by our neighbours.
What does it mean, "prohibited" ? How many were sent to jail, or
even punished in any other way for that after the last census in
Bulgaria ? None. So why use "prohibited". To make better-looking
propaganda statement ?
>
>>Who are "Macedonians" in the MPO ? I though everybody, there is
>>Macedonian (that's why they are MPO) ?
>
>Quite plainly, they are the ones who call themselves Macedonian, as
>opposed to the handful who call themselves Bulgarian.
Still, I think, everybody there calls him/herself Macedonian, and
works for "free and independent Macedonia" (as I understand from
their statements). And I doubt this organization has just a
handful of Bulgarians. As far as I know it is still considered
pro-Bulgarian, "vurhovistka" by Skopje authorities. It's just that
these people don't feel uncomfortable being from Macedonia
geographically, and Bulgarians by ethnicity. I will try to post
some documents about the history of MPO, if the interest is there.
>It's a
>free country here, they can do what they want. I thought I would
>just differentiate between them.
Why would you differentiate between people, who support free and
independent Macedonia ? Why again that communist attitude :
"those who are not with us are against us" ? This way you are
flushing out Gotse Delchev, Dr. Hristo Tatarchev, and many others
who died for the cause of free Macedonia, where all nationalities
would be free to express themselves...
Luben Boyanov
[deleted]
>Goce didn't die fighting for a greater Bulgaria, he, like Yane
>Sandanski, died for a free and independent Macedonia.
Lubi, better don't speak on Goce without having any idea what he considered
himself and what his friends of the IMRO considered themselves as belonging
to an ETHNIC group. Goce Delchev exactly like Yane Sandanski, (BTW, for
your info, Yane fought for Macedonia to be in the Ottoman Empire and many
MAcedonians considered him as a traitor) Dame Gruev and all the rest
considered themselves as BUlgarians. The sooner you realize that, the
better.
Mike Vanier
Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike anier) writes...
>>From: bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov)
>>Message-ID: <9SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>>If the Bulgarian state, would grant them their cultural freedom
>>perhaps the minority would blossom to proportions that you wouldn't
>>even imagine. Unfortunately, that is not the yet the case.
>If to you "cultural freedom" has the same meaning as it has to me
>(I think, this is the common-sense meaning) - see above.
Why must you present the Macedonians of Pirin as Bulgaro-Macedonians?
Let them choose for themselves. Put them back into the official
census. You are correct, you and I disagree on the meaning of
cultural freedom.
>If it means "forbid people to say they are Bulgarians, ...
This is not worth commenting on ...
>>>All of the people in/from Pirin Macedonia I have met personally
>>>feel themselves ethnic Bulgarians.
>>My experience is the exact opposite.
>Really ? How many people from there have you met? And where -
>was it in Canada? Or do you speak only based on what you have
>read ?
If I spoke based only on what I read, or just on what the government
told me, then I would be speaking like you. I personally know less
than a hundred Pirintsi, all of them from Toronto. There are many
more here but it not possible to know them all. Pirintsi are
Makedonci and as such are an integral part of the Macedonian community
here just as the Aegaetsi are. We are all one and the same people.
I speak based on what I have read, and on what I have been told
by the people themselves. Their stories can be corroborated. One
thing you should ask yourself is this - why would an ethnic Macedonian
from Bulgaria speak openly to you?
Bulgaria has its own policies regarding Macedonians, as does the
Greek state. In Bulgaria we apparantly have Bulgaro-Macedonians,
whereas in Greece we have Greek-Macedonians. These Bulgaro-Macedonians
are apparently Bulgarians just as these Greek-Macedonians are apparently
Greek. For me, It's obvious that these claims are completely false,
to the point of being stupid. My family originally comes from Aegean
Macedonia, and I can assure you, that whatever the interim Prime
Minister of Greece claims, ethnic Macedonians are most certainly
not Greek, nor are they Bulgarian. I can understand your difficulties
considering that since the Balkan wars both Greece and Bulgaria have
incorporated parts of Macedonia into their countries. How can you
just turn around and admit the existence of a minority that you've been
denying for 80 years? There are political ramifications to consider.
>As I said in a previous posting, there are few people in Pirin
>Macedonia who consider themselves ethnic Macedonians, and they do
>travel around the world, and meet people, and complain about the
>"Bulgarian oppression". But if you really believe this is the
>overwhelming situation there, you simply delude yourself.
I do not believe that this is the overwhelming situation. The
Bulgarian state inhibits such actions. Neverthless there is a
Macedonian Human Rights movement in Pirin, as well as some pseudo
political organizations. The same is true for the Macedonians living
in Aegae. Large credible human rights organizations as well as many
democratic governments have become more aware of the plight of ethnic
Macedonians living in Bulgaria and Greece, in most cases by ethnic
Macedonians who are citizens of those states. The Republic of
Macedonia declared its independence by popular vote (98%) and the
Serbian shackles have been discarded. This is the new reality.
Maybe we should stop pretending that ethnic Macedonians don't exist.
One of us certainly is deluding himself. We simply disagree on who.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike anier) writes...
>>From: bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov)
>>Message-ID: <9SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>And I accept it and respect the right of anyone (including yourself)
>to be whatever he / she wants. So why cannot you accept that other
>people have the same right?
What an odd statement. In the Republic of Macedonia you can
officially state your ethnicity as Bulgarian. We are not afraid
that Macedonians will prefer to call themselves Bulgarians or
Greeks. What I don't understand is why referring to yourself
as an ethnic Macedonian is illegal in Pirin or Aegae. How about
just accepting someone for what they are and not for what you
think or have been told they are?
ROM is seriously considering undergoing a census which will be
monitored by the UN. Will Bulgaria and Greece consider the
same thing. It would give your position, [that there are no ethnic
Macedonians], some semblance of credibility. As it is now, you prevent
people from calling themselves ethnic Macedonians, legally and on
the official state census, then you turn around and say, there is no
such ethnicity as Macedonian, only Bulgarian and Greek. I know that
both Greece and Bulgaria are lying. But you can discredit
"propagandists" like me very easily. Have a UN sponsored and
controlled census. If there are no ethnic Macedonians then I shall
vanish into oblivion. Someone is lying here, Mr. Bliznakov, and it's
very easy to get to the truth if you ever want the truth to be known.
>Hey, I am not in a position to give anybody anything :-) I have
>nothing, and I am not a president of Bulgaria, nor am I a member of
>the parliament nor the government, nor an official in the judicial
>system, nor have I any desire to become one (the politics is a
>dirty job !).
In a democracy, the people choose their governments, and the
governments reflect the will of the people. Exert your will.
>My understanding is, that at this forum everybody speaks for
>her/himself. I don't feel I have to represent the
>authorities of my country, defend them, blame them, etc.,
If you simply don't care what the authorities in your country
do then why waste your time with a democracy?
>What is really missing, is the political opportunity to make
>Macedonist propaganda. There is no problem to declare yourself
>ethnic Macedonian,
Oh yes there is a big problem with this. Where have you been
lately. The official Bulgarian position is that there is no
Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonians are Bulgarians.
>>We see a similar thing taking place in Aegean Macedonia with the
>>Grkomani.
>Exactly ! We also see it with you, as you try to prove to the
>world (or, maybe, to yourself) that you are not Bulgarian. That's
>just how the people act : they stand for their believes. I see
>just 3 differences between the Bulgaro-Macedonians on one hand, and
>you and Gr`komani (as you call them, or Slavophone / Bulgarophone
>Greeks, as would they are called in Greece):
>... Stojan Bojadzhiev spent several years in the labour
>camps in Zagrad, Nozharevo, Belene, and Debovo after the communists
>in Bulgaria took power and declared all Macedonian population
>"non-Bulgarian".
Isn't is a sad commentary on Bulgarian politics that the communists
were more advanced on this issue than the current leadership?
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike anier) writes...
>>From: bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov)
>>Message-ID: <9SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>2) Bulgaro-Macedonians never had the incentive to insist on their
>Bulgarian nationality. On the contrary, being Yugoslav citizen had
>certain advantages - much higher freedom of travel, and better
>economic situation (not even to mention Greece).
Macedonians never insisted on their "Bulgarian" nationality.
Bulgarians or pseudo-Macedonian "Bulgaro-Macedonians"
are the ones who insist on their Bulgarian nationality.
Macedonians struggled to free thier homeland from the Ottoman
empire.
>3) Many of the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians come from prominent
>Macedonian families, who were involved in the Macedonian liberation
>movement. They were exposed since their childhood to much
>information about the Macedonian question and history.
Nice try. This well publicized handful of prominent voivodi and
offspring, are the ones who were educated in Bulgaria, by Bulgarians.
It was always Bulgaria's intention to acquire the territory of
Macedonia for itself. Delcev and Sandanski and the like did not
die for a United Bulgaria, they died for a free and independent
Macedonia. How odd that these "Bulgarians" should do such a radical
thing. Go ahead and exploit Tatarchev and Koeva as much as you like.
They may be of Macedonian stock and yet they are the enemies of
Macedonia. They are not the first nor will they be the last.
>Lord save me from deciding somebody's ethnicity !
Hello. Aren't you the one who spends the better part of your
day arguing that ethnic Macedonians are just brainwashed
Bulgarians.
>>Goce didn't die fighting for a greater Bulgaria, he, like Yane
>>Sandanski, died for a free and independent Macedonia.
>Right. However, that did not make them less Bulgarians. Don't mix
>statehood and ethnicity.
Sorry, but to me this is all starting to sound a bit silly.
>I bet you were never beaten and arrested by the Bulgarian police :-)
>Moreover, unlike me, you have never been at the grave of Jane
>Sandanski. Otherwise you should have known that it is at the
>monastery near Rozhen (in Cyrillic, P O >|< E H) village, not
>Roglen.
Izvini, I always get the names confused. I have been to the
church, but I was young. It is true, that I have never been
beaten by the police, or anyone else, while I was in Bulgaria.
In fact my visit there was extremely enjoyable.
>As far as the incident with the Macedonist organization Ilinden
>is concerned, as I mentioned earlier, I would have not used
>police force against them. But that's me, I don't know a lot, and
>certainly I am not in any position to decide. This is why I
>referred you to Mr. Tatarchev, he was right on the spot, at the
>monastery, and was honoring Jane Sandanski. And he also is general
>prosecutor of Bulgaria, he is in a position to decide that some
>meeting is against some of Bulgarian laws, and can make the police
>prevent it. And he also is Macedonian (_here I am not using the
>word in the ethnic sense which seems to be the only acceptable to
>you_), so, I guess, he takes all this very personally.
As far as I'm concerned, Bulgaria is the lesser for having Tatarchev
as its general prosecutor. He has shown himself to be clumsy and
contraversial. It's easy to find broken laws for organizations
you want to suppress, and Lord knows Tatarchev isn't fond of
Macedonians.
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike anier) writes...
>>Not quite.
I love Macedonian songs, even those with beautiful Bulgarian
mothers in them. Do you know, "Sokol mi leta" or "Padrono mome"
or "Aber mi doide?" In any case beautiful music does not negate
the fact that Macedonians are no longer permitted access to the
Bulgarian census.
>What does it mean, "prohibited" ? How many were sent to jail, or
>even punished in any other way for that after the last census in
>Bulgaria ? None. So why use "prohibited". To make better-looking
>propaganda statement ?
Prohibited means not permitted, forcibly denied, prevented by
law... Is this propaganda? Is it not true? Can an ethnic
Macedonian from Pirin refer to himself on the official Bulgarian
census as an ethnic Macedonian? If not, why not?
>Still, I think, everybody there calls him/herself Macedonian, and
>works for "free and independent Macedonia" (as I understand from
>their statements). And I doubt this organization has just a
>handful of Bulgarians. As far as I know it is still considered
>pro-Bulgarian, "vurhovistka" by Skopje authorities. It's just that
>these people don't feel uncomfortable being from Macedonia
>geographically, and Bulgarians by ethnicity. I will try to post
>some documents about the history of MPO, if the interest is there.
Don't wast you're time. MPO is decaying rapidly. With the
formation of the Republic of Macedonia, people no longer had
to call themselves Bulgaro-Macedonians. The old choices were
Greek, Turkish, or Serbian, any wonder they became Bulgaro-
Macedonians to begin with. Well the universe has changed again.
Let them decide who they are. If they remain Bulgaro-Macedonians,
that's lovely if not, that's lovely too.
>Why would you differentiate between people, who support free and
>independent Macedonia ? Why again that communist attitude :
>"those who are not with us are against us" ? This way you are
>flushing out Gotse Delchev, Dr. Hristo Tatarchev, and many others
>who died for the cause of free Macedonia, where all nationalities
>would be free to express themselves...
It is the official Bulgarian policy that denies the existence of
a separate Macedonian ethnicity. It has already been proven
historically that Bulgaria was not interested in a free and
independent Macedonia. Why should I believe the policies of
the MPO leadership now? BTW, you wouldn't happen to have any
literature ascribed to the old Macedonian voivodi, like Delcev
where they state that there is no such thing as a Macedonian
ethnic group?
We're not getting very far this way, are we?
Lubi Uzunovski
Mike Vanier
Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>,
>mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes...
>>From: bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov)
>>Message-ID: <9SEP1993...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>>>If you define ethnic Macedonian minority, as group of people who
>>>would declare themselves ethnic Macedonians (for whatever reasons),
>>>my answer is YES, there are such people.
>>Then why deny them the freedom to express their culture or speak
>>their language?
>Wrong question. Nobody in Bulgaria is denied the freedom to speak
>his/her language (hey, even speak a foreign language :-)))
>Seriously, your claim is not true about Pirin Macedonia (I know it
>from personal experience, I have been there, I have talked to local
>people).
You and I are beginning to regress in our dialogue. We have to get
over some hurdles. Plamen, I'm not making these statements up. They
are real and they need to be be addressed. Those people in Pirin
who are ethnic Macedonians, are suppressed from promoting their
Macedonian heritage. It's practically a doctrine in Bulgaria and
Greece that there is no such thing as an Macedonian ethnicity.
Macedonians can't just be incorporated in the Bulgarian state
and packaged as "Bulgaro-Macedonians." That's the same thing that
Greece is doing with the "Slavophone minority." That to me is
propaganda. People must be permitted to choose what ever ethnicity
they sincerely believe themselves to be. The state must accept this
choice and respect their decision. It is unacceptable that minorities
should be "repackaged" for political purposes.
The Macedonians of Pirin form a legitimate ethnic minority. As such
they are entitled to be counted in the census, have their own schools,
and churches and some access to the political wheels of the state. The
Bulgarian government should have few problems permitting these things.
There is always the risk that such freedom may increase the risk of a
Macedonist movemement, and that is one reason why the Bulgarian
government is reluctant to admit the existence of a separate Macedonian
ethnicity. The Former Military Dicatorship of Greece (FMDOG) :-) has a
similar challenge to overcome, but compared with Bulgaria the Greek
approach is neanderthal.
>...(Now, please, don't try to say I am a Bulgarian nationalist,
>who wants Bulgarian army to invade the Republic of Macedonia and
>to go to the banks Vardar river, just because I like these songs.
>I am not, and I do not, but I do.)
Mr. Bliznakov, I cannot know what is in your mind. I am led to believe
that you have already convinced yourself that those people who call
themselves ethnic Macedonians are, in your opinion, Bulgarians who
have been brainwashed by Serbian communist propaganda. This is already
a bad start, but it can be overcome.
>And if the proposition of the Bulgarian president Zhelyu Zhelev
>from his speech last month about making the border with the Republic
>of Macedonia (as well as with the rest of the Balkan countries)
>virtually symbolical becomes a reality, there will be even less
>obstacles for cultural exchange between Pirin and Vardar Macedonia.
Unfortunately, this is a bit idealistic, at the moment. I don't
think you're going to get the ultra-nationalist governments of
Greece and Serbia to agree. I do think Zhelev is a progressive
thinker, and that this idea has its merits.
>... in Bulgaria ... when it comes to culture Macedonian
>most often has a regional meaning (Macedonian as part of
>Bulgarian), just as you use Pirintsi to refer to Macedonians from
>Pirin Macedonia (or is it a separate nationality to you :-)).
I'll give you three guesses, first two don't count :-)
>For you Macedonian has _only_ national, ethnic meaning.
I'm not quite that limited in my use of the term Macedonian.
When I refer to someone who is Macedonian I specify whether they
are an ethnic Macedonian, or a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia.
Then there are the other regions of Macedonia that have become
incorporated into the neighbouring countries. Still there is a
difference between Bulgarians living in Pirin or Greeks living in
Aegae and the ethnic Macedonians living in the same places.
Lubi Uzunovski
Plamen Bliznakov
>in Message-ID: <12SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>
>>... Stojan Bojadzhiev spent several years in the labour
>>camps in Zagrad, Nozharevo, Belene, and Debovo after the communists
>>in Bulgaria took power and declared all Macedonian population
>>"non-Bulgarian".
>
>Isn't is a sad commentary on Bulgarian politics that the communists
>were more advanced on this issue than the current leadership?
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Now I understand what "more advanced" means to you.
Plamen
Plamen Bliznakov
>in Message-ID: <12SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>
>>even punished in any other way for that after the last census in
>>Bulgaria ? None. So why use "prohibited". To make better-looking
>>propaganda statement ?
>
>Prohibited means not permitted, forcibly denied, prevented by
>law... Is this propaganda? Is it not true?
Yes, it IS JUST propaganda. And IT IS NOT true.
>Can an ethnic
>Macedonian from Pirin refer to himself on the official Bulgarian
>census as an ethnic Macedonian?
YES, he/she was able to do it, if he/she _really_ wanted to.
>
>It has already been proven
>historically that Bulgaria was not interested in a free and
>independent Macedonia.
>
You don't have to go too far for proof of the contrary. Bulgaria
was _the first_ country in the world to recognize the independence
of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the recognition of the
rest of the newly independent countries in former Yugoslavia. And
Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new republic neighbours which supports
its admission to international organizations.
Best regards,
Plamen
Mike Vanier
l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov), writes,
>In article <60.899.515...@canrem.com>
>mike....@canrem.com (MikeVanier) writes:
>[deleted]
>>Goce didn't die fighting for a greater Bulgaria, he, like Yane
>>Sandanski, died for a free and independent Macedonia.
>Lubi, better don't speak on Goce without having any idea what he
>considered himself and what his friends of the IMRO considered
>themselves as belonging to an ETHNIC group.
Goce was an ethnic Macedonian who had been educated in Bulgarian
schools. He understood the Bulgarian mind set, but he trusted
the Bulgarians far too much. He viewed Bulgaria as the only possible
ally toward his goal of liberating Macedonia. A free and independent
Macedonia for the Macedonian people. There's no doubt that IMRO
contained Bulgarophili. You must stop living and dying by one
political quote. Delcev and the rest of them struggled to free
Macedonia. They did not want to annex it to Bulgaria, how odd.
If I was a Bulgarian then I would want to live in my motherland,
I wouldn't go and liberate a country and make it separate from
Bulgaria. That would be foolish. Just think of the support that
Delcev and IMRO could have gotten if they wanted a United Bulgaria.
That is not what Delcev wanted, neither did Sandanski.
>Goce Delchev exactly like Yane Sandanski, Dame Gruev and all the
>rest considered themselves as BUlgarians. The sooner you realize that,
>the better.
Yes, I know all this. Let me see. There is no such thing as an
ethnic Macedonian, Macedonians are just brainwashed Bulgarians.
Of course if your Greek, the story changes somewhat.
Perhaps the sooner that you realize that there is such a thing
as Macedonians, and that there indeed was an attempt to liberate
Macedonia by the Macedonian people, the better off we'll all be.
Lubi Uzunovski
Plamen Bliznakov
>>considered himself and what his friends of the IMRO considered
>>themselves as belonging to an ETHNIC group.
>
>Goce was an ethnic Macedonian who had been educated in Bulgarian
>schools.
From the Statute of the Internal Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees
(worked out at the Congress of Salonica of the Inner Organization in 1896)
Chapter I
Purpose
Art. 1. The aim of IMARC is to gain full political autonomy for Macedonia.
Art. 2. To achieve this they are obliged to create a feeling of self-
defense among the Bulgarian population in the parts mentioned in art. 1, to
spread revolutionary ideas among it through the press or by word of mouth,
to prepare the uprising and stir up the people revolt.
Chapter II
Composition and Structure
Art. 3. A member of IMARC can be any Bulgarian regardless of sex,
who has not disgraced himself by doing something dishonest or immoral
against society and promises to be useful with something to the revolutionary
cause.
<...>
>If I was a Bulgarian then I would want to live in my motherland,
>I wouldn't go and liberate a country and make it separate from
>Bulgaria. That would be foolish. Just think of the support that
>Delcev and IMRO could have gotten if they wanted a United Bulgaria.
And just think of the opposition to the liberation of Macedonia on
behalf of the great powers if it was to be united with Bulgaria proper.
Macedonia was already returned once to the Turks by the Berlin treaty.
Besides, there were so many nations in Macedonia at that time : Greeks,
Albanians, Serbs, Vlachs, Tsintsars, etc. The idea of establishing a
free and independent Macedonia in which any nation would have been free
was much more viable.
>Yes, I know all this. Let me see. There is no such thing as an
>ethnic Macedonian, Macedonians are just brainwashed Bulgarians.
It's just the same as saying "there is no such thing as American
nation, they are just brainwashed Englishmen. Not true today.
However, we are talking 100 years ago, don't miss it. Don't
re-baptise people with dignity who died for the freedom of Macedonia,
let them rest in peace. They said enough about themselves, it was
not too long ago (historically), the documents are still around,
and even some people born before the Ilinden - Preobrazhenie
uprising are still alive.
As for nowadays- you are a living example that the Macedonians do exist
as a nation. Although, you demonstrate suspiciously well the
Bulgarian stubborness :-))
Plamen
Vassil Peytchev
>in Message-ID: <12SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu>
>Bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov), writes,
>>Oops, better don't start this discussion. Because I know
>>"Makedonsko devojche" from my student years, but I doubt you know
>>another Macedonian song, "Dafino mome", where Dafina says she is so
>>beautiful because she was born to a Bulgarian mother.
>I love Macedonian songs, even those with beautiful Bulgarian
>mothers in them. Do you know, "Sokol mi leta" or "Padrono mome"
>or "Aber mi doide?" In any case beautiful music does not negate
>the fact that Macedonians are no longer permitted access to the
>Bulgarian census.
>>What does it mean, "prohibited" ? How many were sent to jail, or
>>even punished in any other way for that after the last census in
>>Bulgaria ? None. So why use "prohibited". To make better-looking
>>propaganda statement ?
>Prohibited means not permitted, forcibly denied, prevented by
>law... Is this propaganda? Is it not true? Can an ethnic
>Macedonian from Pirin refer to himself on the official Bulgarian
>census as an ethnic Macedonian? If not, why not?
OK. I had enough - last time I replied to you on this issue, you didn't
bother to follow up, so now I will type it very slowly, since you seem to
have a hard time reading my postings ("Pishem ti bavno, shtoto znam che
chetesh trudno")
An ethnic Macedonian CAN refer to himself as an ethnic Macedonian - and many
did! About 5000 of them... So you are right - this is propaganda.
The issue with OMO Ilinden is not that they call themselves Macedonians, it
is that they want to force everybody else to become a Macedonian (ethnic,
that is). From what I read you are against such actions, aren't you?
And please answer Plamen's question - do you know the Macedonian folk song
"Dafino Mome" or not?
-Vassil
Luben Boyanov
>Let them choose for themselves.
THey did - in the recent census in Bulgaria there was the choice to declare
as whoever you are. There were some people who declared themselves as
belongling to the newly created Macedonian nation. THis is recorded and
there is no need to spread lies in public that it didn't happen.
> Put them back into the official
>census.
THey are.
>thing you should ask yourself is this - why would an ethnic Macedonian
>from Bulgaria speak openly to you?
Why not? COnsidering that about 1/2 of Sofia is of Macedonian origin and
about 1/4th of Bulgaria... Need references to see the scale of the
imigration of "Macedonians" to Bulgaria before, during and after Ilinden,
during and after the Balkan wars and after WWI. It is true that some
people who did not have national consciousness (the uneducated peasants)
had no idea on what they were and later were easy target of the Serbian
propagnada but ...
>Greek state. In Bulgaria we apparantly have Bulgaro-Macedonians,
>whereas in Greece we have Greek-Macedonians.
Wrong. Many authors (actually all until certain time !!! - Macedonism is
proven beyond any doubt to be a Serbian invention) spoke of no other
"Macedonians" than Bulgarian-Macedonians, Vlach-Macedonians,
Greek-Macedonians etc.. THis was at the end of last century and the start
of this one. Even more - those who knew very well the region stated
explicitly that "There are no Macedonians" - having in mind that there is
no such national entry - see the article by Sir Arthur Evans in "The Times"
- 1st of October 1903 (there are also other similar statements by scholars
and people who knew the region well). Later such national group (i.e.
Macedonian) was created.
>..., ethnic Macedonians are most certainly
>not Greek, nor are they Bulgarian.
Depends what is udner the term "ethnic" - if one speaks of MIladinovi,
Purlichev, Delchev and Gruev, then their ethnicy is well defined and it is
Bulgarian. It is undisputed fact that they knew it, were proud of it and
there is absolutely no need their national belonging to be changed by some
Canadians or anybody else.
>incorporated parts of Macedonia into their countries. How can you
>just turn around and admit the existence of a minority that you've been
>denying for 80 years? There are political ramifications to consider.
Wrong again. THere has been no such minority or majority recorded 80 years
ago. You can get ANY ehtnic map before 1906 (even the creator of the
Macedo-Slavs - the Serbian Cvijic doesn't talk on ethnic Macedonians in
1906) and check out this undisputed fact. No international document (when
talking on minorities and ethnic groups), no Ottoman document indicates the
existence of "Macedonian" ehtnicy or nationality. THe memoirs of Turkish
officials (who knew better what was the population they have ruled for
hundred of years?) and so many documents of the Ottoman Empire are well
preserved and there is absolute no reason to doubt what is written there.
People will look at those writings in order to find the truth and not
follow the lively imagination and speculations of some Canadian from 1993
>Lubi Uzunovski
Luben Boyanov
>>to be whatever he / she wants. So why cannot you accept that other
>>people have the same right?
>
>What an odd statement. In the Republic of Macedonia you can
>officially state your ethnicity as Bulgarian.
Somebody is not telling the truth - either L. Uzunovski or S E Palmer and
R R King...
page 14.
"...it is dangerous for a Yugoslav
Macedonian to admit that he considers himself a Bulgarian,"
page 200
"No Macedonian in Yugoslavia would admit openly that he considers himself
a Bulgarian - it is neither wise nor safe to do so."
----------------------
"Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian Question", S E Palmer and R R King,
Archon Books, USA, 1971. ISBN 0-208-00821-7.
----------------------
>Greeks. What I don't understand is why referring to yourself
>as an ethnic Macedonian is illegal in Pirin or Aegae.
It is not illegal in Pirin Macedonia. YOu are not telling the truth.
> How about
>just accepting someone for what they are and not for what you
>think or have been told they are?
Why not accepting that I know what I am exaclty as you know what you are
and to accept that Miladinovi, Purlichev, G. Delchev and Dame Gruev
what they were? There is no need for some Canadian or Serboman
to create other nationality for them.
>ROM is seriously considering undergoing a census which will be
>monitored by the UN. Will Bulgaria and Greece consider the
>same thing.
Bulgaria did it. There were also few WELL observed (by international
observers) free democratic elections.
> It would give your position, [that there are no ethnic
>Macedonians], some semblance of credibility.
THe census (in Bulgaria) was last year and only the ignorant on it don't
have the credibility.
> As it is now, you prevent
>people from calling themselves ethnic Macedonians, legally and on
>the official state census, then you turn around and say, there is no
>such ethnicity as Macedonian, only Bulgarian and Greek.
Not true again. THere was an option in the Bulgarian census to declare
yourself whatever you want, incl as "Macedonian" and some people did so.
> I know that
>both Greece and Bulgaria are lying.
YOu have no idea on the Macedonian matter. Pity you don't want to read
anything.
> But you can discredit
>"propagandists" like me very easily.
NO - you are just ignorant and stubborn enough to accept the truth as
presented in older books and writings.
>controlled census. If there are no ethnic Macedonians then I shall
>vanish into oblivion.
THat will be a real loss for the newsgroup.
> Someone is lying here, Mr. Bliznakov, and it's
>very easy to get to the truth if you ever want the truth to be known.
And the one who is lying is not Mr. Bliznakov :-)
>>What is really missing, is the political opportunity to make
>>Macedonist propaganda. There is no problem to declare yourself
>>ethnic Macedonian,
>
>Oh yes there is a big problem with this.
No - there is no problem. Don't lie in public.
>lately. The official Bulgarian position is that there is no
>Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonians are Bulgarians.
Seems this was the official position of the WORLD before WWII. Why single
out the Bulgarian position when international documents and ethnic maps in
the world produced by non-Bulgarian scholars confirm this fact? Why don't
speak about the Stalin-Dimitrov meeting on the creation of the Macedonian
nation? Why not consider the facts and forget for a while your
anti-Bulgarian stand? Why not read some writings of the leaders of IMRO
and why not read the diplomatic reports from 1903? Why not?
>Isn't is a sad commentary on Bulgarian politics that the communists
>were more advanced on this issue than the current leadership?
Just brilliant. Having not being able to read the gems of Angelos, it is
so nice to see those of Mr. Uzunovski...
>Lubi Uzunovski
Luben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I understand the world only as a field for cultural competition between
the nations"
Gotse Delchev
[from the biography of Gotse Delchev by Peyo Yavorov]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luben Boyanov
>the fact that Macedonians are no longer permitted access to the
>Bulgarian census.
This is a lie. They were permited and they declared themsleves in the way
they wished. Actually, one must not forget that it is not only Pirin
Macedonia who is of "Macedonian" origin but also half of Sofia and 1/4th or
1/5th of Bulgaria. Before and after the Ilinden uprising, after the Balkan
wars and after WWI, about Bulgaria was flooded by imigrants from Macedonia.
No one has the copyright of the word "Macedonian". Those, who fought for
the independence of Macedonia from the Ottomans fled to Bulgaria and not to
Serbia or Greece thus demonstrating their national belonging. However 80
years Serbian propaganda changed the national character of most of the
people in Vardar Macedonia. THe picture, however is different in Aegean
Macedonia and totally different in Pirin Macedonia.
>Macedonians to begin with. Well the universe has changed again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
True but no one must change the nationality of the great heroes of Ilinden
and the nationality of the great enlighteners like Paisii, Miladinovi,
Purlichev, ZHinzifov, Djinot, etc, etc.
> It has already been proven
>historically that Bulgaria was not interested in a free and
>independent Macedonia.
THis is a deliberate lie, or complete ignorance. Bulgaria was AWLAYS -
check older documents - for authonomous or independent Macedonia. THose
who were against were Greece and Serbia for the obvious reason that the
majority of the population in Macedonia was Bulgarian and the national
character of an authonomous Macedonia would have been Bulgarian.
>the MPO leadership now? BTW, you wouldn't happen to have any
>literature ascribed to the old Macedonian voivodi, like Delcev
>where they state that there is no such thing as a Macedonian
>ethnic group?
THere was no need for such as there was no such group and no one talk on it
- unless you produce proof that some of the old Macedonian voivodi had any
idea on the writings of the Serbian sponsored at that time Kruste MIsirkov,
but even the very Kruste MIsirkov declared himself in OTHER countries as
Bulgarian numerous times :-) As for writngs of "old Macedonian voivodi"
on their nationality and on the national character of Macedonia, it will
be a pleasure for me to provide you such :-)
>Lubi Uzunovski
Luben
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rather know nothing than half-know much"
Fr. Nietzshe (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Vanier
vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>OK. I had enough - last time I replied to you on this issue, you didn't
>bother to follow up, so now I will type it very slowly, since you seem to
>have a hard time reading my postings ("Pishem ti bavno, shtoto znam che
>chetesh trudno")
I apologize if I didn't write back to you, I was having some
computer trouble, and I don't recall your message. Nevertheless,
Bog da me prosti, ama koi jazik je ovoi! Ako sakas date razberam
barem pisi po nashe! Jas iam golema maka so Bugarskio jazik.
>An ethnic Macedonian CAN refer to himself as an ethnic Macedonian
>- and many did! About 5000 of them... So you are right - this is
>propaganda.
Do you mean that Macedonian was an option on the last Bulgarian
census? Does this mean that the Bulgarian state recognizes the
Macedonian ethnic group to be separate from the Bulgarian?
Don't forget to type your answers slowly, so I can
understand them.
>The issue with OMO Ilinden is not that they call themselves
>Macedonians, it is that they want to force everybody else to become
>a Macedonian (ethnic, that is). From what I read you are against such
>actions, aren't you?
Absolutely! Where do we begin to correct this, with OMO Illinden
or with the government of Bulgaria. I'll work on my end if you're
willing to work on yours. After all, one good turn deserves another.
As a suggestion, why don't you start with the Bulgarian Attorney
General. He seems to think that violence is an appropriate method
with which to suppress the expression of minorities.
Let's examine this in proportion. How many members are
there in OMO Illinden, versus the number of people in Bulgaria?
It might be that the Bulgarian state is doing the converting
whereas OMO is doing the preserving. I can see how that would
bother some.
>And please answer Plamen's question - do you know the Macedonian folk
>song "Dafino Mome" or not?
Maybe if you start humming it I might recognize it :-) Perhaps if you
listed the words <G>, that might help jog my memory.
I'll try Dafino mome, but you must try Padrono mome, okay.
Dafino vino crveno
zaspalo tie momceto
na karakamen planina
na aiduckata koria
mi pominale aiduti
guncheto mugo ukrale
na meana muga prodale
za bela luta rakija
.... tra la la
This is fun!
Lubi Uzunovski
Luben Boyanov
>In article <60.924.515...@canrem.com>, mike....@canrem.com (Mike Vanier) writes...
>>in, Message-ID: <14...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
>>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov), writes,
>>
>>>Lubi, better don't speak on Goce without having any idea what he
>>>considered himself and what his friends of the IMRO considered
>>>themselves as belonging to an ETHNIC group.
>>
>>Goce was an ethnic Macedonian who had been educated in Bulgarian
>>schools.
Let us see the contribution by Plamen on the statue of the IMRO !!! (one of
the editions - the most important fact is that this edition was voted and
accepted by Goce Delchev and Dame Gruev (and printed in Solun).
>From the Statute of the Internal Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees
>(worked out at the Congress of Salonica of the Inner Organization in 1896)
>
> Chapter I
>
> Purpose
>
>Art. 1. The aim of IMARC is to gain full political autonomy for Macedonia.
>
>Art. 2. To achieve this they are obliged to create a feeling of self-
>defense among the Bulgarian population in the parts mentioned in art. 1, to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>spread revolutionary ideas among it through the press or by word of mouth,
>to prepare the uprising and stir up the people revolt.
>
> Chapter II
>
> Composition and Structure
>
>Art. 3. A member of IMARC can be any Bulgarian regardless of sex,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Any comment why Goce Delchev and Dame Gruev wrote "any Bulgarian"
can participate in the IMRO?
For information of those who have no idea (apart from the Belgrade
fabricated anti-Bulgarian propaganda ) on all facts about Macedonia the
IMRO, Goce Delchev, etc, one has to add that in one of the next editions of
the Statues of the IMRO, Goce and Dame substituted "Bulgarian" with
"Macedonian and Odrinian" [in the original "Makedonec i Odrinec" - maybe
there is Odrinian nation as well?], so that apart from Bulgarians, all
other ethnic groups can also take part in the IMRO. The important fact
here is that the first edition of the Statutes explicitly mentioned who was
in the core of the IMRO. The Statutes are/were translated in Turkish at
that time, and can be found in Ottoman documents, so one can double
check that fact (in case there is any interest to get to the true picture of
what the IMRO was).
>Plamen
Luben Boyanov
[deleted]
> He understood the Bulgarian mind set,
Not surprisingly after he being Bulgarian himself !!!
> but he trusted
>the Bulgarians far too much. He
Not all of them - I also don't trust all Bulgarians too much - some
Canadians - even less ... :-)
> Delcev and the rest of them struggled to free
>Macedonia.
Actually, it was about autonomous Macedonia !!!
> They did not want to annex it to Bulgaria, how odd.
Let us se what Goce Delchev says on this matter !!!
pp. 32-33.
"... I recall a conversation in which Goce explained to us the idea of
our fight. Few of us asked him one day: "Goce, why do we fight for the
autonomy of Macedonia and the Odrin region when it would be better to
fight for their liberation and unification with the motherland"? Then
Goce said: "Comrades, don't you see that we are not slaves of the falling
apart Turkish state but of the European Great Powers, because of which
Turkey signed its capitulation in Berlin. That is why we have to fight
for the autonomy of Macedonia and the Odrin region - to keep them intact -
in their undivided territories and this is a step towards the future
unification with the Bulgarian fatherland". This was the clear and
precise comment provided by Goce for the reason of the fight of the IMRO. "
From "19 years in Serbian jails", Kosta Tzipushev, Sofia 1943. Forewords
by Simeon Radev.
Either Goce Delchev was not teling the truth on the subject, or Lubi
Uzunovski - and one of them died for Macedonia - guess who. There is no
doubt that if Goce lived, he would have spend the rest of his life in
Serbina jails, or be labeled by some propaganda machines exactly like the
later leaders of the IMRO were labeled - of course, we speak about the
great (later) IMRO leaders T. Aleksandrov and Vanche Mihailov. Goce became
an easy hero for some propaganda machines as he and his brothers died early
- like Dame Gruev and some others. Alas, Belgrade and Skopie propaganda
can't hide forever that there were other famous leaders and fighters of the
IMRO - and the most striking examples of "strange omissions" are the head
ad nchairman of the IMRO - Dr. Hristo Tatarchev and the representative of
the IMRO abroad and one of the most prominent and famous writers in Western
magazines - Simeon Radev (who was personaly sworn in the IMRO by Goce
Delchev himself ).
>Bulgaria. That would be foolish. Just think of the support that
>Delcev and IMRO could have gotten if they wanted a United Bulgaria.
>That is not what Delcev wanted, neither did Sandanski.
They had real support from Bulgaria, but against that were all the great
Powers (incl. Russia which was always supporting Serbian and not Bulgarian
interests - actually because of the constant support for the Macedonian
movement, Bulgaria had some real unpleasant warnings by the Great Powers
with treaths of invasion in Bulgaria) so the matters there are a bit more
complicated. For now, we have to talk on some more basic things, some
people have no idea about. Like for example that even being true that Yane
Sandanski did not (unlike Goce Delchev) want unification with Bulgaria, he
was also AGAINST independent Macedonia - he viewed Macedonia in the
boundaries of the Ottoman Empire and for this reason he was supported by
some Turkish officials but on the other hand, we was viewed as a traitor by
many Macedonians - for which reason he was killed - maybe by Panica - this
was never established...)
>Perhaps the sooner that you realize that there is such a thing
>as Macedonians,
I know that very, very well - from personal and documentory points of view.
It is some other people who have no idea on what this means and they want
to obsess and put a copyright on that word, they want to change the
national identity of the heroes of the Bulgarian nation and use that for
cheap political propaganda. Alas, communism is over (for those offsprings
of Novachkovich, Cvijic, Stalin, Tito, Kolishevski, Apostolsi, etc) and if
Macedonia has to become a democratic member of the world community, it has
to face the realities and facts of the past. And of course - cease the
vigorous anti-Bulgarian campaign, as this is de-facto campaign against
Miladinovi, Purlichev, Delchev, Gruev and all other famous Bulgarians.
>
>
>Lubi Uzunovski
Georgios Tsoukalas
>In article <1993Sep6.1...@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> ch...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mark Andrew Hawling) writes:
>>In article <25vv76$9...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cl...@keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>>>Georgios Tsoukalas (s898...@cse.unsw.edu.au) wrote:
>>>: Stuff deleted ..
>>>
>>>Poulton in his Minority Rights Group book suggests about 200,000
>>>SlavoMacedonians live in Aegean Macedonia. Small but they're there.
>>
>> Who's he ?? Never heard of him. What does Amnesty international say ?
>>And the other international groups. Show me an internationaly
>>recognised document please.
>>>
>This is from the yearly supplement to Encyclopedia Britannica named World
>Data. I will be glad to provide other "internationally recognized" references
>too, if you still have some misgivings.
>
>"Greece, Population(1990) 10 038 000"
Sencus happened in 1991, that's the number they got. Anyway,
>"Ethnic Composition(1983) Greek 95.5%, Macedonian 1.5%, Turkish 0.9%, Albanian
> 0.6% " - Britannica, 1991 World Data p. 606
>
>"Ethnic Composition(1982) Greek 95.5%, Macedonian 1.8%, Turkish 0.9%, Albanian
> 0.6% )" - Britannica, 1987 World Data
>
>Language - Greece: Greek 9,640,000 Macedonian 150,000 Turkish 90,000 -
> -Britannica, 1991 World Data p.759-
>
>
> "ETHNIC/LINGUISTIC COMPOSITION, ethnic, racial, or linguistic composition of
> a national population, reported here according to the most reliable
> breakdown available, whether published in official sources (such as census)
> or in external analysis (when the subject is not addressed in national
> censuses [usually because of social or political sensitivities])" -
> Encyclopedia Britannica, 1991 World Data, p.535
>>>
>>>Andy
>>
>> George Tsoukalas
>>
>Vasil Babamov
>
Fair enough. But theire are a couple of points, because
even those souerces are questionable. One, how could you define the
"Macedonians" when we know that when the boarders were drawn, and they
were "caught" in Greece, there wasn't any refrence to the existance of
a macedonian nationality. So you are telling me that in the last
50 years they got a "macedonian" conciousness ??
The second point I would make is that given the muslem population
is smaller (acording to your data) yet they have representatives in
parlament and are quite visible. They have always been. Yet the socalled
"Macedonian" minority is invisible. There is Greek press that don't agree
fully with Greece, but they don't find them either. For such a population
there oppresion must 100% efficient for silencing them. That is totaly
impossible. Greece has a relatively perfect record on human rights.
I personaly went to our library to look up Amnesty Int. and find
out about the Greek record. All I found are some periodicals. An
never in any of them did I find a refrence on Greece. Turkey was
a comon customer, and there even was a book only on Turkey (pre 1979 though) !!!
Also one for Albania, the colection was preetty small ie upto 1990
of monthly periodicals (A few decades but I only looked at 89-90)
but Greece does respect human rights, and those minorities are
significantly smaller, also they are not "Macedonians". What is needed
are original sources. Were is Britanica quoting from ? From data given to
them by FYROM ? Bulgaria, Ex-Yougoslavia ??
\
George
Sacha Shopov
>
>You don't have to go too far for proof of the contrary. Bulgaria
>was _the first_ country in the world to recognize the independence
>of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the recognition of the
>rest of the newly independent countries in former Yugoslavia. And
>Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new republic neighbours which supports
>its admission to international organizations.
Plamen, Bulgaria was also _the first_ to deny the exitence of
the Macedonian Nationality, the primary population of the
Republic of Macedonia. Greece also denies the existnece of
the Macedonian Nationality, which is distinct from Bulgarian, Serbian,
and everybody else who says 'the Macedonians' are not Macedonian.
The issue of the Macedonian language being distinct from any other
regional language in that area of Europe is supported by linguist
globally, and linguists are the people who should know - not some
politician who has never studies linguistics. Bulgaria claims
the Macedonian language as a dialect of Bulgarian, and this is
an insult to the Macedonians from the Republic. Plamen, I think you
can see by those two points above [language and nationality] why
the Macedonains from the Republic oppose the Bulgarian stand.
What is a country if its constituents arent recognised?
Bulgaria has supported the separation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia,
but it hasnt supported the integreation of Macedonia into the rest
of the world as simple Macedonia, with all its priveledges it
deserves, which include its own language, identity,.... etc to be
recognised & shouldnt have to be told its merely a degenerative 'subgroup'
of some greater power [past, present or future] in the region.
Many people feel Bulgaria's acceptance of Macedonia _away_ from
Yugoslavia is an attempt to accept it _into_ Bulgaria. Its policies on
"language.. nationality.." seem to promote this. It however won't happen.
At the same time the Republic of Macedonia must deal with the Hellenic
Republic, whose government is now in turmoil - awaiting re-elections.
>Best regards,
>
>Plamen
Pozdrav, Sacha
--
___________________________________________________________________________
# #
# Sacha Alexander Shopov, ssh...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au sa...@cairo.anu.edu.au #
# Sydney University Macedonian Society, #
Vassil Peytchev
>In article <13SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu> bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes:
>>
>>You don't have to go too far for proof of the contrary. Bulgaria
>>was _the first_ country in the world to recognize the independence
>>of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the recognition of the
>>rest of the newly independent countries in former Yugoslavia. And
>>Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new republic neighbours which supports
>>its admission to international organizations.
>Plamen, Bulgaria was also _the first_ to deny the exitence of
>the Macedonian Nationality,
I think there is some misunderstanding about the term "nationality". The way
it is used in the US and in France for example, it is equivalent to
citizenship. In such a case the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia
automatically leads to a recognition of the Macedonian nationality. The
Bulgarian (and probably Macedonian also) word "nacionalnost" however is used
with a meaning very close to "ethnicity". So the official Bulgarian stance
would be better translated as "there is no such thing as a Macedonian
ethnicity". It may be argued whether this is a reasonable stance or not, I
personally believe that those who call themselves ethnic Macedonians have
the right to do so, therefore they are ethnic Macedonians. I also believe
that the this is a new ethnicity, which evolved and developed in this
century for one or other reason, but this doesn't mean I am telling you "You
are not Macedonian".
[deleted]
>The issue of the Macedonian language being distinct from any other
>regional language in that area of Europe is supported by linguist
>globally, and linguists are the people who should know - not some
>politician who has never studies linguistics. Bulgaria claims
>the Macedonian language as a dialect of Bulgarian, and this is
>an insult to the Macedonians from the Republic.
The *literary* Macedonian language is a distinct language, since it was
created to be different from the other regional languages. (BTW, this
doesn't make it less of a language). The Macedonian dialects, however are
in such close relationship with the Bulgarian dialects, that the linguists
are talking about a Balkan-Slavic region as a linguistically unified area -
and this area excludes Serbia, but includes both the Republic of Macedonia
and Bulgaria.
>Plamen, I think you
>can see by those two points above [language and nationality] why
>the Macedonains from the Republic oppose the Bulgarian stand.
>What is a country if its constituents arent recognised?
>Bulgaria has supported the separation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia,
>but it hasnt supported the integreation of Macedonia into the rest
>of the world as simple Macedonia,
This is untrue. Bulgaria persuaded Russia in recognizing the republic, and
is doing more than any other country to help integrate the new country in
Europe and the world.
>with all its priveledges it
>deserves, which include its own language, identity,.... etc to be
>recognised & shouldnt have to be told its merely a degenerative 'subgroup'
>of some greater power [past, present or future] in the region.
>Many people feel Bulgaria's acceptance of Macedonia _away_ from
>Yugoslavia is an attempt to accept it _into_ Bulgaria. Its policies on
>"language.. nationality.." seem to promote this. It however won't happen.
And, regrettably, the official Macedonian stance helps to keep these feelings
awake, while frequently making claims which to some extend justify the
Bulgarian stance on the ethnicity. For example, when president Gligorov says
that Goce Delchev is one of the great Macedonians (which he is, but not
*ethnic* Macedonian), then we can presume that President Gligorov has the
same ethnicity as Goce, and Goce was a Bulgarian. This, of course is just a
game of words, but exclusive claims on our common past make things more
difficult than they already are.
>At the same time the Republic of Macedonia must deal with the Hellenic
>Republic, whose government is now in turmoil - awaiting re-elections.
And I hope you can see that the Bulgarian approach to the Macedonian
question is more reasonable - Bulgaria recognized the republic first, and
then we can resolve any differences we may have - including the issues of
nationality, ethnicity and language.
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Plamen
>Pozdrav, Sacha
Best regards,
-Vassil
Plamen Bliznakov
>In article <13SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu> bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes:
>>
>>You don't have to go too far for proof of the contrary. Bulgaria
>>was _the first_ country in the world to recognize the independence
>>of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the recognition of the
>>rest of the newly independent countries in former Yugoslavia. And
>>Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new republic neighbours which supports
>>its admission to international organizations.
>
>Plamen, Bulgaria was also _the first_ to deny the exitence of
>the Macedonian Nationality, the primary population of the
>Republic of Macedonia.
That's not exactly so. As far as I remember, the Bulgarian president on
that question answered that "a nationality is something which countries
don't have to recognize, it either exists or doesn't exist". Another
quote by a Bulgarian official, the minister of defence (at least the sense
is preserved) : "Those who feel themselves Bulgarian are already among us".
It's not that this last statement didn't make a lot of people in Bulgaria
upset, but that's what Bulgaria nowadays is - not just one opinion on any issue.
As far as the objective judgement goes, I think, there is no undisputed
scientific definition for the term "nationality" (just like for "language").
I think, that if the political will is there (along with the means to implement
this will), you have a distinct nationality, if the political will (or
sufficient means to implement it) are not there, there is no nationality. This
is basically how the American nation was established, isn't it. So why not
have a Macedonian nation established the same way ?
I guess, in the specific Bulgarian-Macedonian case, a lot of misunderstanding
comes from the fact that some part of the Slavic population of Macedonia
wants to be known / was brought up to believe / to be a separate nation,
and another part - to be part of the Bulgarian nation. Same people, same
language, same traditions, same culture, quite often - blood relationships,
but different political will. And one part not willing to accept the
decision of the other part and vice versa. Besides, all this crap about
the history going on (like "Bulgaria tries to usurp the Ilinden uprising"),
or the strong belief among the Macedonian politicians (or at least lack of
ability to deny it) that the population of Pirin Macedonia is simply
suppressed by Bulgarian authorities ethnic Macedonian minority fuels the heated
debate as well.
>The issue of the Macedonian language being distinct from any other
>regional language in that area of Europe is supported by linguist
>globally, and linguists are the people who should know - not some
>politician who has never studies linguistics.
Sorry, but I would have to dispute this statement.
I myself was interested in the question : "What are the objective criteria
which distinguish a language from a dialect." I have raised this question some
time ago, and cross-posted it to sci.lang. There were many responses. It turned
out that there are _no_ broadly accepted objective _linguistic criteria_.
According to some of the linguists, a popular definition of "language" is "a
dialect with an army". So it turned out this is a rather _political_ question,
an issue of political will to distinguish one from another. There could be
rather distinct dialects of one language (take German, for example; in
Switzerland the spoken language is quite different from the literary German).
On the contrary, there could be quite close distinct languages. According to
this same responses of linguists, Slavic languages are usually very close to
each other (e.g., Russian, Byelorussian, Ukranian, Polish, etc.). A case in
point are Serbian and Croatian. I myself am not able to distinguish them but,
according to some statements by Croat linguists I saw recently, they are
separate languages (sounds familiar, doesn't it:-)).
So, basically the linguists, which try to prove one statement ("There is no
distinct Macedonian language, it's a dialect of Bulgarian"), or the contrary
("The Macedonian language is a separate language") are just serving somebodies
(possibly, their own) political ambitions, not linguistics as a science.
Let me just mention my own position.
As far as the local dialects go : if a researcher travels from village
to village (where dialects are mostly preserved) from any point in Bulgaria
to any point in the Republic of Macedonia, and ignores slang and recently
(during last 50 years or so) introduced words, he / she will not find a specific
border distinguishing one group of dialects from another. It will be a
gradual spectrum of dialects with minor differences from place to place.
Moreover, some people would call their dialect Bulgarian, others - the
same dialect - Macedonian (just recently there was a posting by a Bulgarian
from Bansko and a response by Lubi Uzunovski in this newsgroup).
On the other hand, as far as codified languages go, there certainly are
_two different literary languages_ Bulgarian, and (for quite some time
by now, I think, for 46 years) Macedonian.
That's it, it's so simple (maybe :-)).
>Bulgaria claims
>the Macedonian language as a dialect of Bulgarian, and this is
>an insult to the Macedonians from the Republic.
I guess, that's too simplistic view. Bulgaria consists of many Bulgarians,
and usually they have even more opinions on each subject :-) The current
Bulgarian president had his major work - the book "Fascism" translated
into Macedonian and printed in the Republic. What's the point of doing
that if "this not a language". So don't just say "Bulgaria claims...",
say "this bloody fool ... claims ...".
>Plamen, I think you
>can see by those two points above [language and nationality] why
>the Macedonains from the Republic oppose the Bulgarian stand.
No, I frankly don't see it (see my explanations above). I think, the
problem to some extent is in the deeply developed anti-Bulgarianism
on the territory of the Republic over a couple of generations (basically,
since the liberation of Macedonia from the Ottomans during the Balkan wars).
Plus the misconceptions about the history ("to build a new Macedonian
history the old one had to be totally revised").
>
>What is a country if its constituents arent recognised?
>
>Bulgaria has supported the separation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia,
>but it hasnt supported the integreation of Macedonia into the rest
>of the world as simple Macedonia, with all its priveledges it
>deserves, which include its own language, identity,.... etc to be
>recognised
Again I will repeat, that as far as the actions of the current Bulgarian
authorities are concerned, Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new Republic's
neighbours which supports its admission to international organizations
("as simple Macedonia", if you wish). Just couple of days ago the Republic was
not admitted to CSCE because of the veto of Albania, Greece, and Cyprus. And
Serbia (which has its membership in CSCE frozen) has not even recognized the
Republic.
>& shouldnt have to be told its merely a degenerative 'subgroup'
>of some greater power [past, present or future] in the region.
>
Oops, no-one can claim he/she is unique limitless back in the past. First,
even in the Republic of Macedonia it is not disputed that Macedonians
(as a nation) are Slavs. Is it bad to be a 'subgroup' of Slavs ? Second,
if you are believing Christian, and you go far enough in history you
will come back to Adam and Eve. Is it so bad to be a 'subgroup' of their
family ? Third, you reside in Australia, is it considered bad over there
to be a 'subgroup' of some greater past power (UK) ? So what's wrong with
branching of peoples ?
>Many people feel Bulgaria's acceptance of Macedonia _away_ from
>Yugoslavia is an attempt to accept it _into_ Bulgaria.
Even more people feel that the induction and support of 'ethnic Macedonian
rights groups' like OMO "Ilinden" in Pirin Macedonia by the current (and
past) Macedonian (Yugoslavian) leadership is an attempt to assimilate
it _into_ the Republic of Macedonia. Is it a reason to have anti-Macedonian
feelings ?
Besides, what do you think, Bulgarians are nuts ? It's not that some are not
unreasonable, but not everyone. Why would anyone nowadays in his/her
good consciousness desire to merge with other people against their will ?
Even German unification with all the desire on both sides, no national
difficulties and the financial power of West Germany is going difficult,
why would you expect Bulgarian authorities to wish to unify with the
Republic of Macedonia today ?
>Its policies on
>"language.. nationality.." seem to promote this. It however won't happen.
>
>At the same time the Republic of Macedonia must deal with the Hellenic
>Republic, whose government is now in turmoil - awaiting re-elections.
That's a whole different story :-)
>
>Pozdrav, Sacha
>
Pozdrav (in Bulgarian :-)),
Plamen
Plamen Bliznakov
P.S. Congratulations, Sacha and all those writing from Australia,
on getting the 2000 Olympics in Sydney :-)
Plamen
Vassil Peytchev
>in, Message-ID: <vassil.7...@cs.wisc.edu>
>vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>>OK. I had enough - last time I replied to you on this issue, you didn't
>>bother to follow up, so now I will type it very slowly, since you seem to
>>have a hard time reading my postings ("Pishem ti bavno, shtoto znam che
>>chetesh trudno")
>I apologize if I didn't write back to you, I was having some
>computer trouble, and I don't recall your message. Nevertheless,
>Bog da me prosti, ama koi jazik je ovoi! Ako sakas date razberam
>barem pisi po nashe! Jas iam golema maka so Bugarskio jazik.
Of course it was in Bulgarian - that is why I first wrote it in English.
Just to help you pick up another "foreign" language on the run :-)...
And, as you see, now I had difficulty reading - don't type so fast!
>>An ethnic Macedonian CAN refer to himself as an ethnic Macedonian
>>- and many did! About 5000 of them... So you are right - this is
>>propaganda.
>Do you mean that Macedonian was an option on the last Bulgarian
>census? Does this mean that the Bulgarian state recognizes the
>Macedonian ethnic group to be separate from the Bulgarian?
No, it wasn't, the same way there wasn't an option for Greeks - in both
cases it is thought that the numbers of such individuals is too small to
deserve a separate option. That is why there was the "others" option - and
if Pirinci really felt "ethnic Macedonians" they would have proven this
opinion wrong, and nobody could do anything to suppress or prevent them from
doing it. But they didn't...
>Don't forget to type your answers slowly, so I can
>understand them.
>>The issue with OMO Ilinden is not that they call themselves
>>Macedonians, it is that they want to force everybody else to become
>>a Macedonian (ethnic, that is). From what I read you are against such
>>actions, aren't you?
>Absolutely! Where do we begin to correct this, with OMO Illinden
>or with the government of Bulgaria. I'll work on my end if you're
>willing to work on yours.
You meen, you have a say in the doings of OMO "Ilinden"? And I haven't even
accused them yet of being puppets in foreign hands :-).
But seriously, when this group starts talking about the "ocupation of Pirin
Macedonia by the Bulgarians", I wouldn't call it just "expression of a
minority", it is much closer to a threat to the territorial integrity of
Bulgaria. After all, the Bulgarian party in Macedonia (Party for Human
rights, or something like that) talks about Bulgarians in the Republic, not
about the "serboman occupied western parts of Bulgaria". Lets see if the new
organization (see RFE Daily report from Sept. 29) will be more reasonable
than OMO.
Sorry again for the delayed reply.
-Vassil
Mike Vanier
vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>In alt.news.macedonia Lubi Uzunovski writes:
>>in, Message-ID: <vassil.7...@cs.wisc.edu>
>>vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>>>- and many did! About 5000 of them... So you are right - this is
>>>propaganda.
>>Do you mean that Macedonian was an option on the last Bulgarian
>>census? Does this mean that the Bulgarian state recognizes the
>>Macedonian ethnic group to be separate from the Bulgarian?
>No, it wasn't, the same way there wasn't an option for Greeks - in
>both cases it is thought that the numbers of such individuals is too
>small to deserve a separate option. That is why there was the "others"
>option - and if Pirinci really felt "ethnic Macedonians" they would
>have proven this opinion wrong, and nobody could do anything to
>suppress or prevent them from doing it. But they didn't...
were Macedonians, unfortunately the Bulgarian government did not
see the need to recognize their numbers. This policy is typical.
Regarding the point that the ethnic Macedonian population of
Bulgaria is too small to deserve a separate option, well on this
we significantly differ. The ethnic Macedonian population
in Bulgaria is vastly greater than the 5000 you suggest.
>But seriously, when this group [OMO] starts talking about the "
>ocupation of Pirin Macedonia by the Bulgarians", I wouldn't call
>it just "expression of a minority", it is much closer to a threat
>to the territorial integrity of Bulgaria.
people living in it, earlier this century. Some of them still cannot
accept the forced assimilation policies of the Bulgarian government.
Everything is relative to your point of view.
>After all, the Bulgarian party in Macedonia (Party for Human rights,
>or something like that) talks about Bulgarians in the Republic, not
>about the "serboman occupied western parts of Bulgaria".
in the Republic, is surrounded by ethnic Macedonians. Denying their
existence, for them, would be absurd. Secondly, ROM is not
Western Bulgaria, but Pirin is Macedonia. Even Bulgarians refer
to it as Macedonia.
>Lets see if the new organization (see RFE Daily report from
>Sept. 29) will be more reasonable than OMO.
minority certain fundamental rights, then I think that some very
wonderful things can happen. Attempting to achieve these rights
does not comprimise the territorial integrity of Bulgaria. I fail
to see how continuing the policy of denial, will solve anything.
>Sorry again for the delayed reply.
>-Vassil
Lubi U.
Vassil Peytchev
>in, Message-ID: <vassil.7...@cs.wisc.edu>
>vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>
>>No, it wasn't, the same way there wasn't an option for Greeks - in
>>both cases it is thought that the numbers of such individuals is too
>>small to deserve a separate option. That is why there was the "others"
>>option - and if Pirinci really felt "ethnic Macedonians" they would
>>have proven this opinion wrong, and nobody could do anything to
>>suppress or prevent them from doing it. But they didn't...
>
>The ethnic Macedonians living in Bulgaria did write in that they
>were Macedonians, unfortunately the Bulgarian government did not
>see the need to recognize their numbers. This policy is typical.
>Regarding the point that the ethnic Macedonian population of
>Bulgaria is too small to deserve a separate option, well on this
>we significantly differ. The ethnic Macedonian population
>in Bulgaria is vastly greater than the 5000 you suggest.
And how do you know that? Have you talked personally to more than 5000
inhabitants of Pirin Macedonia, who told you they were "ethnic Macedonians"?
If you rely on "history" books like the one from which excerpts were posted
in this group recently, then I would suggest reading something different for
a change - preferably not published in Skopie (or Sofia, or Moscow for that
matter).
>
>>But seriously, when this group [OMO] starts talking about the "
>>occupation of Pirin Macedonia by the Bulgarians", I wouldn't call
>>it just "expression of a minority", it is much closer to a threat
>>to the territorial integrity of Bulgaria.
>
>You must recall that Bulgaria only acquired Pirin Macedonia, and the
>people living in it, earlier this century. Some of them still cannot
>accept the forced assimilation policies of the Bulgarian government.
>Everything is relative to your point of view.
If you insist that at the beginning of the century Macedonia was populated
with "ethnic Macedonians", you are wrong - and this has nothing to do with a
point of view, these are facts which can be verified by anyone, and which
only a fanatic can dispute. The only time Pirin Macedonia was populated with
"ethnic Macedonians" was in the Stalinist fifties - and it happened
overnight under gun barrels and with the help of tanks. Anyone who wanted to
remain Bulgarian was sent to a concentration camp. Now you can probably see
why Macedonism brings back dark memories to Pirinci - it is associated with
the darkest years of the communist regime.
>
>>After all, the Bulgarian party in Macedonia (Party for Human rights,
>>or something like that) talks about Bulgarians in the Republic, not
>>about the "serboman occupied western parts of Bulgaria".
>
>There's a reason for that. First of all, the Bulgarian minority
>in the Republic, is surrounded by ethnic Macedonians. Denying their
>existence, for them, would be absurd. Secondly, ROM is not
>Western Bulgaria, but Pirin is Macedonia. Even Bulgarians refer
>to it as Macedonia.
Wait a second! You are getting into the same fallacy our southern neighbors
are committing. Geografic Macedonia is different from ancient Macedonia is
different from `an area populated by "ethnic Macedonians"'. Remember, you
call yourself a Macedonian because you (or your ancestors) came from
geografic Macedonia, not the other way around! And what today is ROM was
internationally recognized as Bulgarian populated lands until WW2. Even the
Serbs admitted that the area south of Scopie was Bulgarian when they signed
the secret agreement on the division of Macedonia before BW1. So, to
perefrase you, some Bulgarians still cannot accept the forced assimilation
policies of the two x-Yugoslavia's and the continuing policies of history
revisionism of the present ROM leadership.
[deleted]
> I fail
>to see how continuing the policy of denial, will solve anything.
My thoughts exactly! Now guess who is denying what...
>Lubi U.
Regards,
-Vassil
Mike Vanier
>mike....@canrem.com (Lubi Uzunovski) writes:
>>in, Message-ID: <vassil.7...@cs.wisc.edu>
>>vas...@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev), writes,
>>The ethnic Macedonians living in Bulgaria did write in that they
>>were Macedonians, unfortunately the Bulgarian government did not
>>see the need to recognize their numbers. ... The ethnic Macedonian
>>population in Bulgaria is vastly greater than the 5000 you suggest.
>And how do you know that? Have you talked personally to more than
>5000 inhabitants of Pirin Macedonia, who told you they were "ethnic
>Macedonians"?
>The reverse argument can equally be applied to you.
Pirin was cleaved from the same region that has since become
known to be inhabited by Macedonians, why should there not also
be Macedonians in Pirin? The fact that the 1958-9 Bulgarian Census
indicated an ethnic Macedonian population in the order of 200,000
people in the Petric, Blagoevgrad district is another reason. The
fact that Bulgaria has turned up the anti- Macedonian propaganda is
another reason. Finally, there are many Macedonians here in Toronto,
who have personally told me what life is like for a Macedonian in Pirin.
I have very good reason to believe that a large ethnic Macedonian
population exists in Pirin, your denials haven't changed my mind.
VIEW THE PROPAGANDA
.....................................................................
From the latest BIP posted...,
The aspiration of Belgrade Greater Serbian nationalists and the
chorus of Skopje "supporters" to motivate the existence of the so-
called "Macedonian nation" and "Macedonian language" is old tactics of
splintering the Bulgarian nation into traditionally differentiated
Bulgarian groups: Moesians, Thracians, Shoppes, Macedonians and Roups.
.....................................................................
...The silence and censorship in Bulgaria on the so-called
"Macedonian question" is continuing today. On the basis of misguided
principles of democracy in Bulgaria, parties, organizations and
movements which deliberately pursue an anti-Bulgarian and
destabilizing policy with impunity, are being set up.
.....................................................................
To me, this indicates that Bulgaria is using the same rhetoric on
Macedonia as Greece. Anti-Macedonian rhetoric will not solve
this problem, in fact it can only make it worse. You are well aware
that both Greece and Bulgaria possess their own Macedonian territory,
yet remarkably neither one of these regions seems to possess any ethnic
Macedonians. Coming from an Aegean background, I know how much "truth"
there is in the Greek position. I beleive the Bulgarian position
possesses an equivalent quantity of "truth."
Lubi Uzunovski
Plamen Bliznakov
mike....@canrem.com (Lubi Uzunovski) writes:
>
>Pirin was cleaved from the same region that has since become
>known to be inhabited by Macedonians, why should there not also
>be Macedonians in Pirin? The fact that the 1958-9 Bulgarian Census
>indicated an ethnic Macedonian population in the order of 200,000
>people in the Petric, Blagoevgrad district is another reason. The
>fact that Bulgaria has turned up the anti- Macedonian propaganda is
>another reason. Finally, there are many Macedonians here in Toronto,
>who have personally told me what life is like for a Macedonian in Pirin.
>I have very good reason to believe that a large ethnic Macedonian
>population exists in Pirin, your denials haven't changed my mind.
Let me generalize that logic :
"X was cleaved from the same region that has since become known to
be inhabited by Y, why should there not also be Y in X? The fact
that the ... census indicated an ethnic Y population in the order
of hundreds of thousands people in the X district is another reason.
The fact that Z has turned up the anti-Y propaganda is another
reason. Finally, there are many Y outside X who have personally
told me what life is like for a Y in X. I have very good reason to
believe that a large ethnic Y population exists in X, your denials
haven't changed my mind."
Now, please, substitute
X with "Vardar Macedonia"
Y with "Bulgarian"
.. Census with the Census of Ottoman authorities at the turn of
this century (or any western publication on the
ethnic composition of inhabitants of Macedonia
from that time)
Z with "Republic of Macedonia"
What you get is the statement of Bulgarian nationalists / patriots
(to me there is no objective difference between these two, one is
just a somewhat negative synonym for the other). The only
difference between Lubi's position and Bulgarian nationalists'
position is that Lubi is relying in his judgements on facts from
history known to be distorted. It is a well-known fact that the
census in the 50's in Bulgaria (although it took place in early
fifties, much earlier then Lubi is referring to) was manipulated by
the Bulgarian communist leaders to yield the results it _had_ to
yield according to Comintern instructions. While Bulgarian
nationalists rely on independent opinions (just several days ago I
looked in Encyclopedia Britanica from 1910 which was clearly
talking about predominantly Bulgarian population in Macedonia with
some Greek, Serbian, Albanian, Vlach, etc. portions as well, but
_no_ Macedonian ethnicity was ever mentioned).
Just recently Sacha Shopov complained about the position of
Bulgarian nationalists, and I support his view that national
belonging should not be imposed on anybody. So what's wrong in the
conclusion above? I think, it's in Lubi's logic (I hope, Sacha
will support me :-))
Moreover, applying the same logic, one can easily conclude that
there is a large Greek population in Vardar (and in Pirin) Macedonia.
See, Lubi, how you support the Greek nationalists :-)
Finally, I don't think a position like Lubi's helps the emotions
calm down on the Balkans. It in no way helps co-operation between
the peoples over there, and the new Republic gaining broader
international recognition. Which, I guess, doesn't matter if you
live in Toronto, it's just a way to become emotional. This is not a
soccer match, Lubi !
Best regards,
Plamen
P.S. Now, I guess, I start to understand why Macedonians in Bulgaria
(e.g., the Attorney General Mr. Tatarchev) are so much against
Macedonism and are "more Bulgarian then the rest of Bulgarians".
It's simply because there are Lubis around who try to convince them
this is not the case. This must be _very_ offending.
Plamen Bliznakov
mike....@canrem.com (Lubi Uzunovski) writes...
>
>You must recall that Bulgaria only acquired Pirin Macedonia, and the
>people living in it, earlier this century. Some of them still cannot
>accept the forced assimilation policies of the Bulgarian government.
>
Lubi, you are trying to make it sound as if Bulgaria 'acquired Pirin
Macedonia' from the republic with the same name and started to assimilate
the local population. A good propaganda trick : get a fact and put it so
that it starts to imply an untruth.
To my best knowledge, however, the history was all the way around : the local
population met the Bulgarian army in 1913 as liberators from the Turks (you
don't mean that the local population is predominantly Turkish, do you, Lubi ?).
I base my judgment on the evidence of a witness of those events who is still
alive and recently published an article disputing the ideas of Macedonism. His
name is Kosta C`rnushanov, a Macedonian from Prilep, he is 90 years old (not an
age when persons compromise with their beliefs). So, Lubi, even though I am
trying to be unbiased, I have more reasons to believe him than you, sorry :-)
I typed in part of that article. Sorry, but I had no time to translate
the text in Bulgarian. Please, ask me personally if you have a problem
with some words in this text :-))))
Enjoy,
Plamen
P.S. By giving credit to baj Kosta C`rnushanov, I am not trying to deny
the existence of Macedonian nation nowadays.
---------------------
Otvoreno pismo
na prostejshij i neknizni jazik
bolgarski ot mene - "pamfletistot"
Kosta C`rnushanov ot Prilep, do tebe -
koskodzamiti doktor Stojan Risteski
ot Ohrid
Mnogu ti godini, doktore Risteski,
Ti go peja v pishanoto vo v."Nova Makedonija" ot 17 mart 1993 god.:
"Bugarite ne sa makedonci" i - tebe laga, mene vistina - se izraduvav
za tri raboti. P`RVO - za naslovot. Vistina e, deka BUGARITE NE SA
MAKEDONCI. Samo si ja izpustil drugata polovina ot vistinata: BIDEJKI
MAKEDONSKITE SLAVJANI SE BUGARI. VTORO: za tvojot rechisi ubav
nashinski jazik, makar i ovde-onde izvalkan so nekolku s`rpski
zborovi: "uvid", "pochetok", "umetnici", ili tug'i zborovi:
"deplasirani", "prezentira", "pamflet", so koi sakash da se pokazish
mnogu uchen ! Zatoa i jas se reshiv da ti go pisham pismovo po
nashinski ili - kako shto velat nashite vozrozdenci - "na prostejshij
i neknizni jazik bolgarski". TRETO: me izraduva, deka ne samo si ja
prochital mojata kniga "MNOGOKRATNITE IZJAVI NA NACIONALNOTO
SAMOOPREDELENIE NA MAKEDONSKITE B`LGARI", ami si pishal i celi tri
koloni na vestnikot, ta so toj sebap site nashinci vo Republika
Makedonija ke razberat, deka jas ich ne spijam i si ja kazuvam
pravinata. I bidi siguren, deka tie ke posakaat sa ja prochetat i da
vidat dali navistina lazam - kako shto velish ti. I veruvam, deka mene
ke mi poveruvat, bidejki jas sum roden pred Ilinden 1903 i sum gi
videl site loshotilaci vo nashata machna zemja: kako turcite kolea,
kako VMRO se boreshe so niv; kako vo Balkanskata vojna t`rchavme da gi
prechekame bugarskite oslobozditeli i se poparivme, koga gi vidovme
s`rpski-shajkachi; lalp s`rbite ni gi zatvoria site bugarski
uchilishta, gi zapustia bibliotekite, gi izgoreja bugarskite knigi, gi
isteraa nashite uchiteli, popovi i vladici, a mojot uchitel Anastas
Lutviev go zaklaa i teloto mu go izgorea vo furnata na s`rpskata
chkolia; vidov kak Jovan-S`rbinot so debel stap im gi k`rsheshe vo
turski grobishta koskite na naj-vidnite bugari. Posle, po tri godini,
bevme ludi ot radost, koga gi prechekuvavme bugarskite vojski. More
shto milina beshe !... Ama po tri godini pak se vratija s`rbite so
pomoshta na anglo-frencite. Nasila bevme naterani na uchime vo
s`rpskite uchilishta. Taka sv`rshiv na s`rpski gimnazija i universitet
i go znam s`rpskiot jazik po-arno ot tebe. Taka shto mene narodot
poveke ke mi veruva. P`k i shto znaesh ti, bre kutri doktore, roden vo
temno vreme i uchel samo lagi so bradi po s`rpski terk. Ama eve si
reshil da se karash so mene. E, ajde da se nadzboruvame. Samo ke
proshtavash deka ti zboruvam na TI. Zashto sum ti po godini tatko, pa
duri i dedo i mozam da te poucham, bidejki gledam, deka si so umot
bagi adzamija. Ajde da vidime shto kusur si mi nashol.
Kako "mnogu uchen", si pochnal so tug' zbor: mojata kniga bila
"pamflet". Bidejki ne sum tolku uchen kako tebe, otvoriv rechnik i
prochitav: "PAMFLET" znachi: "pismena tvorba so ost`r i nevozd`rzan
jazik protiv nekogo". Vednaz razbrav, deka pishanoto ot tebe protiv
mene e vistinski pamflet, zoshto mojata kniga ima samo dokazani
vistini so dokumenti ili videno so sobstveni ochi. Kako shto gledam,
seta maka ti e: zashto da pishuvam, deka nie - makedonskite slavjani
sme bugari. Ako si ot Labunica ili ot Boroec, ne mi e chudno, ama ako
si ot samiot Ohrid, ke i usramish dedovcite kako P`rlichev, Shapkarev,
Miladinovci, Uzunov, Patchev, Keckarov i koj li ne.
Deka sum bugarin, znam ot tatka mi i majka mi, a tie - ot svoite
tatkovci i dedovci. Pogledaj se na kolku godini si ! Mene li -
90-godishniot - ke me uchish kakov sum, ili jas tebe, shto mozish samo
vnuk da mi bidesh ? Za da ti go vidam umot, tri pati ja pregledav
tvojata statija i ne najdov ni eden zbor, so koj da dokazish deka
lazam. Edno razbrav: deka te lazi umot.
<...>
Luben Boyanov
>In article <13SEP199...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu> bliz...@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Plamen Bliznakov) writes:
>>
>>You don't have to go too far for proof of the contrary. Bulgaria
>>was _the first_ country in the world to recognize the independence
>>of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the recognition of the
>>rest of the newly independent countries in former Yugoslavia. And
>>Bulgaria is _the only_ of the new republic neighbours which supports
>>its admission to international organizations.
>
>Plamen, Bulgaria was also _the first_ to deny the exitence of
>the Macedonian Nationality,
It is pure nonsence to "recognize" or "deny" nationality. It either
exists, or doesn't. Alas it is true, that some Bulgarian politicians
followed some ridiculous advice and such rubbish appeared in news, etc,
and they repeated it for some time. Fortunately, after some
time, (at least on this matter) they got it OK - i.e. everybody belongs
to whatever he wants to.
Still, your statement is very much biased, or you simply tend to forget some
undisputed facts. For example, instead of accusing Bulgarian politicians
(how can you accuse the ancestors of the IMRO leaders and of all Macedonian
imigrants from the start of the 20th century who are still in Bulgaria but
the Vardar Macedonia media refuses to talk on those matters) who are still not
acting accordingly on the Macedonian matter - IMHO - you have to accuse
Great Britain of FIRST denying the Macedonian nationality. Why?
Because in an official British edition, we read:
" Ancient Macedonia was first a kingdom, then a Roman province; but the
district to which we now commonly apply the name HAS NEVER BEEN A NATIONAL
ENTITY {what about this?}, though its natural boundaries are well enough
defined. It may be said to consist of the valleys of four great rivers,
the Mesta, the Struma, the Vardar, and the Vistritsa.
Source:"History of the Great War, Military operations: Macedonia", vol 1-
edition is based on official documents by direction of the historical
section of the committee of imperial defence, Published by His Majesty's
Stationery Office, London, 1933, page 1.
Why no one wants to take a more careful look in such facts and documents,
instead of carrying anti-Bulgarian, Skopie inspired propaganda?
> the primary population of the
>Republic of Macedonia.
THis is rather controvercial - I mean what everybody understands as
Macedonian. Shall we talk about our grandparents, who called themselves
Macedonians, and so did all the emigrees in Bulgaria from Macedonia -
after the Ilinden Uprising and after the Balkan wars. If yes -
then those Macedonians felt being Bulgarians without a hint of doubt.
And the entire world called them Macedonians (check the official US reports
on the Bulgarian mission in Washington, where Bulgarian ambassador was
one of the most famous Macedonians, personal friend of Goce Delchev -
i.e. sworn by him in hte IMRO - Simeon Radev). And still the ansestors
of many of those people are called Macedonians in Bulgaria. But why deny
their Bulgarian national identity? And in any Bulgarian book which you take
from some 70 - 100 years ago, the "Macedonian" is used in the same
way. Why you want to deny this? And in this same sence the word Macedonian
was used by G. Delchev, D. Gruev, K. Shapkarov, G. Purlichev, D & K Miladinovi,
etc, etc... And nowadays, you put a rather different meaning in that word.
So - the quesiton is: why do you deny the national identity of 1/5th of
Bulgaria, of its most prominent cultural intelligentsia from the past? Why?
It is NOT disputed that some 90 or even 60 years ago, the world (not
Bulgaria) considered that there was NO Macedonian nation. It is also
undisputed that the Macedonism theory is a Serbian one, created to detach
the local population in Macedonia from its Bulgarian ethnic identity. But
whatever you do, there are so many matters you can't change - like the books
of folk songs by K. and D. Miladinovi and the similar book by Verkovich,
which folk songs are from the area called Macedonia. And those books carry
the title "Bulgarian Folk Songs" (actually Verkovich book is titled "Folk
songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians"). WHy do you deny this? Why all
who come from Vardar Macedonia deny this? Why?
It is NOT disputed that ALL Western travelers, ethnographs, observers
who were first hand observers in Macedonia at that time (I talk about the
end of the last century and the start of this one) observed only
ethnic Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Jews, etc. It was Serbian
pseudo-scolars who created and developed the idea of Macedonian Slavs
being something "different" - clearly the first phase of Serbanization
of the population there. And curiously enough, Serbians themselves
before 1870-1881, recognized that south of Shar Planina, south of
Nish and Pirot (also Bulgarian populated lands at that time), there
is no significant (or at all) Serbian population. Why is this hidden
from you?
> Greece also denies the existnece of
>the Macedonian Nationality,which is distinct from Bulgarian, Serbian,
>and everybody else who says 'the Macedonians' are not Macedonian.
Greece also denies the existence of Bulgarians in those lands, but I have
been told from first hand experience that still some people there consider
themselves Bulgarians (from non-Bulgarian tourists). And even those who
never talk on their nationality because of fear of persecution, do NOT
speak the language taught in Vardar Macedonia but talk Bulgarian. At least
this last fact is confirmed by anybody who I've talked to and who was in
Aegean Macedonia (in the early 80-ies, BG and Greece had very easy regime
for traveling and a lot of Bulgarians visited Greece, as the only
Western country which was so easy to get access to). THose people are
called "Slaphophones" but until the 1920-ies they were called "Bulgarophones".
Any bell ringing on that fact as well? Those "Slaphophones" usually refuse
to say what their nationality is (nowadays).
>The issue of the Macedonian language being distinct from any other
>regional language in that area of Europe is supported by linguist
>globally,
Nowadays this is true but some 100 years ago, this is NOT true and
I never ever read about any Slavist from the last century who
claimed that the people in the region called Macedonia speak other
than Bulgarian language. If you want, I'll tell you several names
from the last century of prominent linguists who were claiming what
I've written above, and you tell me other linguists from the same
time who were claiming what you say. So - this is also a fact you tend to
"forget" and not discuss. All other Macedonians are closing their eyes
and for unexplained reason don't want to check it and verify it.
Not surprisingly, one of the dialects, proposed as official Bulgarian
language after Bulgaria became an independent state was the Ohrid dialect.
It is a pity it lost with one vote and the Eastern Bulgarian - i.e. Turnovo
dialect - was taken for an official Bulgarian language. Since then,
differences started occuring (because until 1880 it is ridiculous to
speak about 1 Bulgarian language) and after 1944, when the modern Macedonian
language was created (with heavy Serbian influence - to make it as remote
from the Bulgarian as possible), it is more than obvious that those languages
are 2 different nowadays...
> and linguists are the people who should know - not some
>politician who has never studies linguistics.
Well, one of the creators of the modern Macedonian language - H. Lunt
as well as B. Konevski, etc, etc, were driven by political motives.
There are very interesting articles on those matters by Kosta
Zurnushanov and many other Macedonians in Bulgaria.
> Bulgaria claims
>the Macedonian language as a dialect of Bulgarian,
That's not true. This claim was the claim of EVERY Slavist -
linguist from last century. And as you say - they were not
politicians, so can you explain why all linguists from the last century
(incl. Serbian - before 1870-81 !!!) did consider the language spoken
in Macedonia as a Bulgarian one?
> and this is
>an insult to the Macedonians from the Republic
And it is an insult to the people in Bulgaria, not to recognize
the Bulgarian nationality of Miladinovi, Purlichev, Zhinzifov,
Dzinot, Delchev, Gruev, G. Petrov, etc, etc...
> Plamen, I think you
>can see by those two points above [language and nationality] why
>the Macedonains from the Republic oppose the Bulgarian stand.
And can you see the points from above? What about them?
>Bulgaria has supported the separation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia,
>but it hasnt supported the integreation of Macedonia into the rest
>of the world as simple Macedonia,
That's also not true. At least, the BG politicians so far did all they
can that the world recognizes Macedonia as simple as "Macedonia".
But Macedonia continues its anti-Bulgarian and pro-Serbian propaganda.
No Bulgarian books and newspapers can be found in Macedonia, only
Serbian such. Bulgarian journalist was beaten and detained in Skopie
prison and no charge was raised against him after several weeks
detention. Bulgarian Macedonians were not allowed to enter Macedonia...
And if this is a friendly and democratic behaviour...
> with all its priveledges it
>deserves, which include its own language, identity,....
THis is the other way round. It is up to Macedonia to recognize
that the language spoken in those lands until the 19th, 20th
century was called Bulgarian. It is up to Macedonia to recognize
that the national identity of the people there was Bulgarian.
These are undisputed and documented facts. It is impossible to
change what was written and documented all over the world. It is
so silly to follow the game of closing the eyes in front of all
those facts and judjing from the PRESENT situation about the past.
You can not alter what WAS by claiming what is now.
>Many people feel Bulgaria's acceptance of Macedonia _away_ from
>Yugoslavia is an attempt to accept it _into_ Bulgaria.
That seems to be not to be true. I'm curious to how many Bulgarians you
talked to on this subject? I, for my part have spoken to many Bulgarians
and can claim that what you are saying is not the truth.
> Its policies on
>"language.. nationality.." seem to promote this.
That is also not true. No one in Bulgaria, when Macedonian official
visits Bulgaria claims that a Bulgarian comes. Neither that
the language spoken there is the same as the Bulgarian one.
>Pozdrav, Sacha
Pozdrav,
Luben
PS. It is very offensive and insultiung for so many people to continue to
deny the national indetity of those who fought and died for the freedom
of Macedonia from the Ottoman Empire - the members of IMRO and
the heroes of Ilinden.