Macedonian-Bulgarian: Is it the same?
Marin I Marinov
> From: rcvet...@receptor.pharm.uwa.edu.au (Robert Cvetkovski)
> Subject: Macedonian-Bulgarian: Is it the same?
> Date: 25 Apr 1994 12:18:53 GMT
> Organization: The University of Western Australia
>
> Jas imam cueno deka Makedonskiot jazik bil mnogu slicen so Bugarskiot jazik,
> no duri Makedoncite mozele mnogu lesno dase razberat so Bugarite, ali jas
> citav nekulku raboti sto se pisani ovde po Bugarski i mene mnogu mie teshko
> da gi razberam tie raboti.
> Vervajte, deka mene mie polesno da go raberam Srpskiot ili Hrvatskiot jazik
> sprema Bugarskiot jazik.
> Jas mislam deka tie lujge sto velat deka Makedonskiot jazik e naj slicen so
> Bugarskiot jazik se pogresni. Barem ako nekoj od vas mozi da razberi jas
> sto pisam, neka mi se javi.
> (P.S. dali nekoj znaj ona dete sto glumi vo programata "Blossom" sto se vika
> Micheal Stoyanov dali e toj od Makedonsko ili Bugarsko poteklo?
> Molim te javete mi se.)
> Prijatno.
Hi Robert, it is very good that you live in Australia and you interest in
Balkan languages. You even have an opinion about that which languages are
more closer.
Because Macedonians claim that they have a long history as nation and
ethnos ( I hope that you understand me ) and this begun from Aleksander Great,
I wonder if this great nation has as well as great poets, great writters or
at least something that someone wrote for its own history before this
centure. Tell me Robert about that ( your name is not typical for Bulgaria
and Macedonia, was your grandfather born in Beldrad ? ). After that Robert
read these original poems and books, if this nation kept them and compare
them with the books and poems written from Bulgarian on same time. You will
be amazed, because you will understand that you read one and same things.
Bulgaria was constituted at 681 after Juesus and has documents about its
history from beginning of 8 century.
After that I think you will change your opinion, because you will
understand that Bulgaria and Macedonia are two current states, which
share one history, one thinking, one traditions. Finally, you will
understand what does it mean to be a Bulgarian.
======================
Marin Marinov, Buffalo
======================
P.S.: You can write your own history about something,
but you can not create a outcomes of human spirit, which to prove it.
Pero Dimsoski
This is very unfrendly respond to the person who just happend to ask something.
Let me try to put you in a simmilar position.
First of all Marin, your name is not like any name from any civilized country,
were your father born in Ulan Battor or Kishmundu?
Second, beeing Bulgarian having tataric background you must be having a
pity feelings about yourself, please don't get down, after all, the greatest
Bulgarian poets, patriots and leaders were Macedonians isn't that the same
today?
For not beeing Macedonian, you have big dissadvetage by birth, and you will
never be able to feel how it is to be Macedonian.
Pero Dimsoski
Martin Mintchev
Hi Pero.
There are different interpretations of history. Many of these served to
separate people, instead of bringing them closer. Many were used to make
people hate each other.
I don't want to participate in these interpretations. There are historians
in Macedonia, there are also historians in Bulgaria. Let them settle their
differences and offer us better understanding of our heritage. If they are
not able to do that, this means that they are not very good historians. This,
of course, is unfortunate, but has nothing to do with me and you.
In the mean time, I am happy that we are able to understand each other, when
we speak. I am happy, that we share many songs and dances. I am happy, that
we live in peace. I am happy, that we are able to trade and travel without
restrictions; me-in Macedonia; you-in Bulgaria. For good friends, that is
what matters.
Da si zhiv i zdrav, Pero.
Martin (Bulgarian with an European name)
:
Maria D. Popova
pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
> the greatest
> Bulgarian poets, patriots and leaders were Macedonians
I was once sure that Macedonians and Bulgarians were something like
cousins, not like brothers or sisters. I was once sure that all
quarrels over the so called Macedonian Question were futile and
senseless. Until I visited Macedonia in November 1989 (actually I was
in Ohrid when I read one morning that Bugarskiot drjaven secretar Todor
Jivkov padna and of course didn't believe my eyes, and thought the
journalists had gone crazy, but that's another story...) In Titiov
Veles I met many students which were my age, and although I had been
warn not to speak about history, the conversation accidentally turned
toward the subject, and I was amazed--these students were claiming that
Peio Iavorov and Vaptzarov were one of the greatest _Macedonian_ poets.
Yes, I know that these people's biographies--there's no need to tell me
that Vaptzrov was born in Bansko and Iavorov was an active participant
in the organizing of the liberation of Macedonia. My point is that
these poets considered themselves Bulgarian, and WROTE their poems in
Bulgarian, not in Macedonian. If Macedonians don't understand Bulgarian
how do they study Dve hubavi ochi, Predsmqrtno i mnogo drugi stihove,
napisani na BQLGARSKI. I still think that Macedonians have the right of
self-determination. That they have the right of independent state. But
don't try to usurp our literary heritage--you have to admit that we
Bulgarians and Macedonians if different now were once one and the same
nation. Kliment Ohridski was not Macedonian, but Bulgarian. Anyway, we
shouldn't go back in the past--the thing that matters is to live
peacefully in the present.
Maria
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2ppv54$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, but
have you read what he was writing about:
"Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
(Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
language. In a simmilar example, Grigor Prlicev another Macedonian poet who
was writing only about Macedonia, was using Greek literary language. He was
among the Greeks known as a second Homer and his poem Serdarot (Armatolos)
was awarded the highest price in Athens. In yet another example, Marko
Cepenkov, the Macedonian story writer (simmilar like Jan Christian Anderson)
was writing only in what become Macedonian literary language.
Maria, I really appreciate your liberal (in Balkan terms) oppinion about
Macedonian statehood, however, I must say that doesn't matter because
the Macedonian state is the product of the centuries old struggle of the
greatest Macedonian Patriots, and glory and peace to them on this Good Friday.
Krasen Dimitrov
|>
|> have you read what he was writing about:
|> "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
|> ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
|> Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
|>
|> Pero Dimsoski
Pero, Pero, siguren sqm che wseki bqlgarin na net-a i ne samo tuka e otprawjal
mnogo po-sochni psuwni kqm ovaa zemja... Kakto i da e, toja malqk Koljo si e bil
neshto uwreden i bez drugo, umeshwal se s komunisti, chetjal marksicheski knizhki
i pr. Spomnjam si kak Vanche goworeshe za nego, kato za budno, talantliwo, no
leko chalnato momche.
Krasen
Todor D. Mitev
: Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
: Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, but
: have you read what he was writing about:
: "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
: ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
: Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
: Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
: (Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
Let us not argue over literary interpretations. Vapcarov's mother
always insisted that her son is Bulgarian. Actually, do WE have to care
at all? I have always found amusing that people look desperately in the
past for a source of "national pride."
I also want to ask whether someone knows anything about the rumors that
the BULGARIAN poetess Elisaveta Bagrijana could have prevented the death
of Vapcarov, but chose not to?
--
Yours, +----------------------------------------------------------+
! E-mail: mi...@titan.ucs.umass.edu; Phone: (413) 546-3265 !
! 249 Gorman Hall, UMass, Amherst, MA 01003, USA !
Todor Mitev !__________________________________________________________!
Nick Giannios
>At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
>language. In a simmilar example, Grigor Prlicev another Macedonian poet who
>was writing only about Macedonia, was using Greek literary language. He was
>among the Greeks known as a second Homer and his poem Serdarot (Armatolos)
>was awarded the highest price in Athens. In yet another example, Marko
>Cepenkov, the Macedonian story writer (simmilar like Jan Christian Anderson)
>was writing only in what become Macedonian literary language.
Aha ! There was no official Greek state until the 1820's either, however
there's tons of literature written in Greek dating between the 16th - 18th
century. Maybe what you should have said is that there was no Macedonians
(as you define them). So when exactly did Cepenkov write in this language of
yours ? And what do the Bulgarians who post here have to say about him ?
--
Nick Giannios | GS Warriors in '95, '96, '97, '98, '99 ...
Computer Science IV | Panathinaikos in '94 and forever
University Of Manitoba |-----------------------------------------------
umgi...@cc.umanitoba.ca | 'Go ahead. Make my day' Dirty Harry Callaghan
Dimitrios Zanikos
>At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
>language. In a simmilar example, Grigor Prlicev another Macedonian poet who
Pero,
Here you say "at a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any
official literary language".
What were the languages spoken at the time? When was the official
literary language introduced to the population? Where did it come from?
How was the official literary language introduced to the population?
Who was responsible?
I am not trying to offend you with these questions. Can you suggest
any books that may answer these questions. Can you suggest any books
that describe "Macedonian" (Slav ) cultural contributers before
1800's?
have a nice day.
-
Maria D. Popova
pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
> Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
> Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, but
> have you read what he was writing about:
> "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
> ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
> Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
> Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
> (Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
Let's not discuss the poems without looking at the context. Vaptzarov
was a communist in a state, which persecuted them. That's why he felt
that the state in which he's living is hostile and alien to him. He
also writes:
...(I'm sorry that I can't cite in detail, but you'll probably get what
I'm talking about)
I kazvam az poneje niama olio
i hliaba e ot mqkata po cher
...
Sqiuz sqs SSSR
Are we going to say that he was a Soviet man, and that he wanted
Bulgaria to become part of the Soviet Union. Please, these are
oversimplifications of a great poetry.
> At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
> language.
This argument is absolutely ridiculous. I'll repeat again--I recognize
the existence of a Macedonian nation, but plese leave Vaptzarov where
he belongs. An independent state is not necessary in order to have a
language. Don't tell me that before the foundation of the Macedonian
republic within Yugoslavia Macedonian did not exist. Bulgaria didn't
exist for five centuries but this didn't impede Botev, Chintulov and
many many others to write in Bulgarian, right? So if Vaptzrov had
wanted to write in Macedonian the fact that Macedonia did not exist as
a state would not have mattered at all.
What about Iavorov? You didn't say anything about him. He's also
Macedonian right, and maybe he committed suicide because he had to live
in this foreign country Bulgaria in stead of in his homeland Macedonia.
This is all really pitiful. In stead of bickering over the past and
saying exagerations like "Pirin is the most patriotic song in the
Universe" (he-he how do you know--the Martians might have a stronger
nationalism than yours. It seems that the long time you have spent with
Serbia has affected you and inspired megali ideas) Let's try to forget
the past, because we're going to live as neighbors and it will bew nice
for both of us if we don't fight.
Regards,
Maria
Luben Boyanov
Hm, talking about unfriendly matters ... I fear that the guy above was
giving an "expert" opinion on languages - a subject in which he seems to be
in the dark, apart from the contemporary issue. Shall we read what all
Slavists from the last century wrote on the dialect spoken in the region
called Macedonia? Shall we see what language considered (by themselves) to
be using Miladinovi, Purlichev, Zhinzisof, Delchev, Gruev, etc,e tc? OK -
1944 was a year, when a new literary language was created but to claim that
this newly created langauge was the same throughout centuries is simply not
serious.
>Let me try to put you in a simmilar position.
Hm,...
>First of all Marin, your name is not like any name from any civilized country,
>were your father born in Ulan Battor or Kishmundu?
First of all, you have no idea on 2 things:
1) That the Bulgars who came from Asia were highly developed in many
respects and far more civilized than the barbaric Slavs populating the
Balkans.
2) There were 2 Bulgar settlements on the Balkans. One was by Asparuh -
around the Danube, the other - by Kuber - in the region of Bitola (if I am
not wrong - please check S. Runciman's book on the First Bulgarian Empire)
3) It is well known that despite the name (there are many such examples in
history), Bulgarians are a Slav nation and use Slav language.
>Second, beeing Bulgarian having tataric background you must be having a
>pity feelings about yourself,
Hm, it is not true that stuff about the tataric background + let us
remember that the Slavs on the Balkans had no culture whatsoever. It was
the Slav-Bulgarian Kingdom which was the first to develop culture,
borrowing it from Byzantia. Serbs, Russians, etc took it from Bulgaria and
from Bulgarians !!! Check any history book. Needless to say that the centre
of the Bulgarian culture for centuries was the ancient Bulgarian capital
Ohrid :-))). Needless to remind you that Old Bulgarian language was known
as Old Slavonic Language and was the first written Slav language :-)
>please don't get down, after all, the greatest
>Bulgarian poets, patriots and leaders were Macedonians
Yeah - Ivan Vazov, G. Purlichev, R. Zhinzisof, Goce Delchev, S. Radev, A.
Lyapchev, A. Toshev, etc, etc - true- they were all Bulgarians (and
Macedonians at the same time :-) )
> isn't that the same
>today?
Nop. TOday there is a difference b/w those terms.
>For not beeing Macedonian, you have big dissadvetage by birth, and you will
>never be able to feel how it is to be Macedonian.
Nop. The only dissadvantage is not to know what is to be Serboman :-)
(little flame - could increase it by popular demand and more crap as the
one above ... - still, better to chat and not to flame :-)
>Pero Dimsoski
>
>>======================
>>Marin Marinov, Buffalo
>>======================
>>
>>P.S.: You can write your own history about something,
>> but you can not create a outcomes of human spirit, which to prove it.
Luben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2pr93b$f...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>,
Krasen Dimitrov <kd03...@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:
>In article <2pr4hm$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pdim...@magnus.acs.o
hio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
>|>
>|> have you read what he was writing about:
>|> "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
>|> ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
>|> Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
>
>
>|>
>|> Pero Dimsoski
>
>Pero, Pero, siguren sqm che wseki bqlgarin na net-a i ne samo tuka e otprawjal
>mnogo po-sochni psuwni kqm ovaa zemja... Kakto i da e, toja malqk Koljo si e b
il
>neshto uwreden i bez drugo, umeshwal se s komunisti, chetjal marksicheski kniz
hki
>i pr. Spomnjam si kak Vanche goworeshe za nego, kato za budno, talantliwo, no
>leko chalnato momche.
>
>Krasen
Steta stvarno steta sto Koljo bil calnat ama moras da priznaes deka e golem
Makedonski poet, neli taka?
A Vancheto, jas mislam deka da ne bese negovata nerazumna politika, Makedonija
ke imase mnogu podobri odnosi so Bugarija desetici godini porano.
Pero Dimsoski
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2pr8pm$n...@nic.umass.edu>,
Todor D. Mitev <mi...@titan.ucs.umass.edu> wrote:
>Pero Dimsoski (pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>
>: Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
>: Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, b
ut
>: have you read what he was writing about:
>: "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
>: ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
>: Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
>: Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
>: (Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
>
>Let us not argue over literary interpretations. Vapcarov's mother
>always insisted that her son is Bulgarian. Actually, do WE have to care
>at all? I have always found amusing that people look desperately in the
>past for a source of "national pride."
I agree. But why I never said that Hristo Botev, World' greatest patriotic
song writer was Macedonian? Because he was trully Bulgarian and he always
emphisised that. No, I do not look in the past as a source of "national pride".
And again, if you like Vapcarov that much and you feel that belonges to you
you can have him, that just shows how great he is. Also, I have a right on my
oppinion too.
>
>I also want to ask whether someone knows anything about the rumors that
>the BULGARIAN poetess Elisaveta Bagrijana could have prevented the death
>of Vapcarov, but chose not to?
Lets do not open unhealed wounds. The families still exsits and they should
have normall life, we have no right to disturb theirs privacy.
Pero Dimsoski
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2pr9bp$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Nick Giannios <umgi...@cc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
>In <2pr4hm$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state
.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
>
>>At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
>>language. In a simmilar example, Grigor Prlicev another Macedonian poet who
>>was writing only about Macedonia, was using Greek literary language. He was
>>among the Greeks known as a second Homer and his poem Serdarot (Armatolos)
>>was awarded the highest price in Athens. In yet another example, Marko
>>Cepenkov, the Macedonian story writer (simmilar like Jan Christian Anderson)
>>was writing only in what become Macedonian literary language.
>
>there's tons of literature written in Greek dating between the 16th - 18th
>century. Maybe what you should have said is that there was no Macedonians
>(as you define them). So when exactly did Cepenkov write in this language of
>yours ? And what do the Bulgarians who post here have to say about him ?
>
Cool off Nick, you won't create fruitless discussion between Macedonians and
Bulgarians netters. We all know the facts too well. And for your info, language
is a living thing, its keep changing and developing, I'm sure that is true for
Greek language also.
So, your before 18 century greek, is very different than contemporarry greek.
Same is true for Macedonian. And in the broader region the language used was
old Slavic and all the documents were writen in it.
Pero Dimsoski
Pero Dimsoski
In article <zanikos....@sfu.ca>,
There were at least milions of megabytes processed on this topic sometime last
year. I do not intend to repeat any of it.
Pero Dimsoski
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2prcgv$4...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
>pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
>
>> Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, b
ut
>> have you read what he was writing about:
>> "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
>> ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
>> Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
>> Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
>> (Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
>
>was a communist in a state, which persecuted them. That's why he felt
>that the state in which he's living is hostile and alien to him. He
>also writes:
>
>...(I'm sorry that I can't cite in detail, but you'll probably get what
>I'm talking about)
>
>I kazvam az poneje niama olio
>i hliaba e ot mqkata po cher
>...
>Sqiuz sqs SSSR
>
>
>Are we going to say that he was a Soviet man, and that he wanted
>Bulgaria to become part of the Soviet Union. Please, these are
>oversimplifications of a great poetry.
>
>
y
>
>
>This argument is absolutely ridiculous. I'll repeat again--I recognize
>the existence of a Macedonian nation, but plese leave Vaptzarov where
>he belongs. An independent state is not necessary in order to have a
>language. Don't tell me that before the foundation of the Macedonian
>republic within Yugoslavia Macedonian did not exist. Bulgaria didn't
>exist for five centuries but this didn't impede Botev, Chintulov and
>many many others to write in Bulgarian, right? So if Vaptzrov had
>wanted to write in Macedonian the fact that Macedonia did not exist as
>a state would not have mattered at all.
>
>
>What about Iavorov? You didn't say anything about him. He's also
>Macedonian right, and maybe he committed suicide because he had to live
>in this foreign country Bulgaria in stead of in his homeland Macedonia.
>
>This is all really pitiful. In stead of bickering over the past and
>saying exagerations like "Pirin is the most patriotic song in the
>Universe" (he-he how do you know--the Martians might have a stronger
>nationalism than yours. It seems that the long time you have spent with
>Serbia has affected you and inspired megali ideas) Let's try to forget
>the past, because we're going to live as neighbors and it will bew nice
>for both of us if we don't fight.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Maria
Vapcarov was the greatest Macedonian son. That is all I can say. You are
obviosly not familiar with his writings otherwise you will never classified him
as a "communist" (to many pity souls derogatory term). Do you know what were
Hemigwey, Remarck, what were Victor Hugo, and Fitczgerald, they were all
communists. Have you heard of Pushkin, Lorka, Kazancakis ( also communists)?
Have you heard of J.London ? Have you heard of JFK and Bill Clinton, all those
people above have one common thing, they were communists, right?
I'm not familiar with Ivorov and I can say a thing about him.
As for my "exageration" over Pirin, it is more than obvious that you never read
the song. It is not about nationalisam. Vapcarov work, belongs to the cultural
heritage of the World. Any person can find inspiration in his writings. If you
are Bulgarian, you should feel very honered by Vapcarov's choice to write in
Bulgarian.
Pero Dimsoski,
O, orelski krilja kak da si metnem
i vnasi starani da si preletnem...
Krasen Dimitrov
|>
|> In article <2prcgv$4...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
|> Maria D. Popova <Maria.D...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
[del]
|> Have you heard of Pushkin, Lorka, Kazancakis
^^^^^^
|> Pero Dimsoski,
|> O, orelski krilja kak da si metnem
|> i vnasi starani da si preletnem...
Aaaa, Pero, ne sluchi tuka, towa mome s Lorka zaspiwa i s Lorka se sqbuzhda.
A za Wapcarow nema da se karame. Ajde da go narechem goljam Bqlgarski
Makedonski poet. Ne znam tochno kakwo znachi nacionalna prinadlezhnost, znam samo
che naj-hubawite hora w Bqlgaria zhiwejat na jug ot Kocherinowo.
Krasen
Plamen Stefanov
reply-a na Maria, a originala na Pero go niama.
In article <2prcgv$4...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Maria.D...@dartmouth.edu (Maria D. Popova) writes:
|> In article <2pr4hm$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
|> pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
|>
|> > Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Shte triabva da go povtorish mnogo pati za da si poviarvash.
|> > Macedonian Poets. It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, but
|> > have you read what he was writing about:
|> > "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ta, Pero, tova stihove v original li sa ili sa prevod ot bqlgarski?
Toi mai si e bil prav Vapcarov, na nego taia zemia moje naistina da mu se
e vijdala chujda, ama zamislial li si se koia zemia e chuvstval svoia?
Dali Macedonia ili USSR?
|> > Do you know "Pirin" the greatest patriotic song in the Universe?
Dokolkoto razbiram, logikata e takava. Pirin e makedonski,
Vapcarov pishe za Pirin, znachi Vapcarov e makedonec. Ne e nujno
da obiasniavam koe i kuca na logikata. Abe Pero, ne smiatash li
che e po-vajno s kakvo da nahranim decata si dneska, otkolkoto
da sporim za takiva neshta. Az lichno bih ti go dal Vapcarov, ako
zaviseshe ot mene, ama ne zavisi. Abe Pero, dali i az ne sam makedonec,
pak da ne znaia, a?
|> > (Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
Pero, molia te, ne sravniavai Botev s Vapcarov. Po nikakav povod.
Plamen
Martin Mintchev
: Vapcarov was the greatest Macedonian son. That is all I can say. You are
: obviosly not familiar with his writings otherwise you will never classified him
: as a "communist" (to many pity souls derogatory term). Do you know what were
: Hemigwey, Remarck, what were Victor Hugo, and Fitczgerald, they were all
: communists. Have you heard of Pushkin, Lorka, Kazancakis ( also communists)?
: Have you heard of J.London ? Have you heard of JFK and Bill Clinton, all those
: people above have one common thing, they were communists, right?
Vapcarov was a member of Bulgarian Communist Party, an organization controlled
completely by Moscow. He conspired to overthrow the Third Bulgarian Kingdom,
established according to the will of Bulgarian people. He was cought in a cir-
cumstances, well described in a book by Marin Georgiev, which I quoted recent-
ly in a posting "Testisite na Vapcarov". During the investigation he collabora-
ted completely with the police and as a result, several other Communists were
cought and prosecuted. If you are not completely brain-washed, Pero, check this
side of the story too. Because, it is very easy to create heroes artificially
and then bring flowers to their graves every Friday, regardless of their natio-
nality. As far as the language goes, I am ashamed that
I poneje nyama olio
i hlyabqt e ot mqkata po-cher,
edin e lozunga- terorqt dolu,
sqiuz sqs SSSR!
was written in Bulgarian. Rewrite it in Macedonian, and take it away, would you?
More seriosly:
I cannot comment on his poetry, but it is widely accepted nowadays, that poli-
tical poetry is not that great piece of art. One way or the other, Remark, Hu-
go, Pushkin and the others you mention have never been Communist Party members.
What about you, Pero?
: Pero Dimsoski,
: O, orelski krilja kak da si metnem
: i vnasi starani da si preletnem...
Ami priletni si, kakvo si se zael da ni tormozish tuka. Metni si kakvito is-
kash krilca i priletni kqdeto shtesh. Samo, ne mi dosajdai poveche.
Martin Mintchev.
Maria D. Popova
pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
> Vapcarov was the greatest Macedonian son. That is all I can say. You are
> obviosly not familiar with his writings otherwise you will never classified him
> as a "communist" (to many pity souls derogatory term). Do you know what were
> Hemigwey, Remarck, what were Victor Hugo, and Fitczgerald, they were all
> communists. Have you heard of Pushkin, Lorka, Kazancakis ( also communists)?
> Have you heard of J.London ? Have you heard of JFK and Bill Clinton, all those
> people above have one common thing, they were communists, right?
Of course I've heardof all of them. The fact that I'm an opponent in
this discussion, doesn't give you the right to talk to me with a
derogatory tone. It seems that you didn't read my words very well. I
never wrote that Vaptzarov was a communist, that's why he is not a
great poet. I can think logically enough as to avoid such statements.
What I meant is that the verse you are giving as a testimony of
Vaptzrov's being Macedonian can be interpreted in another way, that
shows that this has nothing to do with nationality.
> I'm not familiar with Ivorov and I can say a thing about him.
> As for my "exageration" over Pirin, it is more than obvious that you never read
> the song. It is not about nationalisam. Vapcarov work, belongs to the cultural
> heritage of the World.
Of course, that's absolutely true. Vaptzarov's work does belong to the
world, and sure enough everybody can find inspiration in his poetry,
even if he or she reads it in translation. I'm not disputing this. I
was disputing the fact that Vaptzrov himself was Macedonian. And I
still do by the way...
Any person can find inspiration in his writings. If you
> are Bulgarian, you should feel very honered by Vapcarov's choice to write in
> Bulgarian.
I feel proud that he is Bulgarian. Why would he choose to write in
Bulgarian is he wasn't Bulgarian? If "tazi zemia" mu beshe chujda, he
wouldn't have written in its language. Do you seee how you contradict
yourself? And it's not entirely your fault--I agree that it is
difficult to defend an false argument.
Thanks for the discussion,
Maria
Plamen Bliznakov
>
>And in the broader region the language used was
>old Slavic and all the documents were writen in it.
just a brief remark :-)
Regards,
Plamen
Luben Boyanov
>
>Maria D. Popova <Maria.D...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>In article <2pmgik$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>>pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
>>
>>> the greatest
>>> Bulgarian poets, patriots and leaders were Macedonians
>>
>>
>>I was once sure that Macedonians and B
It is ridiculous to claim that 1/4th of Bulgaria is "cousins" with the rest
of the country. Or that Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev,
etc, etc were something like BUlgarians... (sort of cousins) - such list is
far bigger than most of us can imagine... However, our common ignorance on
the subject is not surpising at all - it is a direct result of the
Stalin-Dimitrov-Tito propaganda from the 40-ies, 50-ies, and also more or
less because of the support of the West towards Yugoslavia, which was
anti-Stalin and always an independent from Moscow country, while Bulgaria
was the first in the list of the bad countries (being a Moscow satelite :-( )
>>cousins, not like brothers or sisters. I was once sure that all
>>quarrels over the so called Macedonian Question were futile and
>>senseless.
Until some people don`t stop trying to convince us that our g-g-fathers and
our heritage is in fact something else but not BUlgarian (which is the cruz
of the matter, concerning BUlgaria nowadays - not what was the matter in
1912, or 1944), I can see that some questions are not that senseless...
>>toward the subject, and I was amazed--these students were claiming that
>>Peio Iavorov and Vaptzarov were one of the greatest _Macedonian_ poets.
They claim the same for Purlichev, Zhinzisof, and others who were without
any doubt Bulgarians and were damn proud of that.
>>don't try to usurp our literary heritage--you have to admit that we
>>Bulgarians and Macedonians if different now were once one and the same
>>nation. Kliment Ohridski was not Macedonian, but Bulgarian. Anyway, we
>>shouldn't go back in the past--the thing that matters is to live
>>peacefully in the present.
Yeah - see the latest reports by Amnesty and Helzinki Watch. How can you
explain them? What is the image of Bulgaria in the world in regard to this
"obsolte" question?
> Let me repeat for you, Nikola Jonkov Vapcarov is one of the Greatest
>Macedonian Poets.
Oh, yes?
> It is true that he wrote in Bulgarian literary language, but
Because the group of partizans have not yet gathered to create the
Macedonian literary language :-)
>have you read what he was writing about:
>"Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
> ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
>Ovaa zemja prostete e tuzda..." writen in Sofija.
So what? Where he claims he is not Bulgarian? Any contemporary
"Macedonian" repeates and repeats that he is not Bulgarian. Enlighten us
where Vapcarov did the same? A symbolic poem on the matter "my land", "not
my land" - great proof ... We shall all appreciate your effords of showing
us where Vapcarov claimed he was not Bulgarian.
>(Only Hristo Botev the true Bulgarian poet could surpass Vapcarov).
What about the Macedonian Ivan Vazov (while being born in Sopot, his family
is a Macedonian :-) - not suprizingly, Vazov has so many poems written on
Macedonia - it was the Macedonian sonets written by him in 1885)?
Furthermore, Botev was ... Thracian :-) And so was Yavorov :-).
>At a time there was no Macedonian State so there wasn't any official literary
>language.
Why do I remember that in Skopie books there was something about Tzar
Samuil? Centuries, there was no Jewish state, but there was Jewish
language. Many centuries, there was no Bulgarian state, but there was
Bulgarian language and people wrote in Bulgarian. I've sent some pages to
Penio to put them on gif-files, so people can see books written in "the
simplest Bulgarian language" which were written in the early 1800 -ies
(authors were from the region called Macedonia :-) ).
> In a simmilar example, Grigor Prlicev another Macedonian poet who
>was writing only about Macedonia, was using Greek literary language.
While it is true that Purlichev - a big Bulgarian poet - was writing in
Greek, it is funny to claim his own language was something else but
Bulgarian. Funny and sad at the same time.
> He was
>among the Greeks known as a second Homer and his poem Serdarot (Armatolos)
>was awarded the highest price in Athens.
Let us see what Purlichev HIMSELF writes on that occasion:
Grigor Purlichev writes in his autobiography on this occasion.
1885
"I worked in Ohrid for six years. Now I had more than 5000 grosh.
'Mother! I'm going to Athens.'
'Go, son, go where it is best for you.'
I set forth, and in August 1895 I arrived there and enrolled as a
second year medical student but, of course, I wrote poems, too. I had
just begun my poem " O' Amaptw?os" [appears in the text in Greek]
I knew that the poem had to be handed in to the examining committee on
February 13th at the latest, but I didn't know that the signature of the
author had to be put in a sealed envelope, on which one of the best verses
of his poem was written, and so I gave the poem in signed simply G.E.P
[initials in Greek]. On March 25th, 1860 the chairman of the committee, Mr.
Rangavis, in the presence of a large audience started to appraise the poems
presented, beginning with the poorest. Among the audience there were Mr.
Orphinidis, and acknowledged and crowned poet, and Vernadakis, professor of
philology, both bright and happy, and quite confident that they would
receive the crown or, at least, the monetary prize. For me, as for many
other spectators, there was no chair, of course. When Rangavis said,
"Finally here we have a poem, much shorter than the others, called "O' ...",
I felt an indescribable excitement such as I had never felt before; no one
could have recognized me then, I was besides mself; it was clear that the
crown was mine.
I have described all these circumstanced in detail, so that young
people should know that excessive joy is deadlier than sorrow. Let them
also know that I am writing this, not out of pride, but to help elevate the
pride of the people.
We, Bulgarians, have been so abused and despised by other nationalities
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that it is high time we regained our dignity. When one reads our folk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
songs, in which every beauty is called Greek woman, then one will
instinctively conclude that wretched self-contempt is a nn
among men. Bulgarian industriousness is rarely to ound among other
nationalities; it has ennobled us, it has been and will be our salvation.
If it is true that idleness is the mother of all ills, it is also true that
The text transcript in a Commands window filled up, and the oldest saved
text will be erased from the top as more is typed at the bottom.
work is the father of all good. What advantage could the other
nationalities possibly have over us? Having listened to the abuses heaped
upon all the Bulgarians, I have lived all my life with the idea I was
nonentity. The same thought has kept me away from the highest circles of
society without which f is a su is, of course,
more dangerous, but, we, Bulgarians, should be aware of the second, we must
trust our strength and rely on our good works"
pages 35-39 from
Grigor Purlichev, "Selected Works",
Sofia, 1939
> Maria, I really appreciate your liberal (in Balkan terms) oppinion about
>Macedonian statehood, however, I must say that doesn't matter because
>the Macedonian state is the product of the centuries old struggle of the
>greatest Macedonian Patriots, and glory and peace to them on this Good Friday.
Glory to them as they had a clear Bulgarian natinal consciousness and that
national consciousness was for sure not a product of the Novachkovich
theory from the end of the 19th century. We must honour the big Bulgarian
patriots like Goce Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gyorche Petrov etc, as they were
really proud of being Bulgarians.
>Pero Dimsoski
Luben Boyanov
> Vapcarov was the greatest Macedonian son.
Our g-fathers told us that Goce Delchev was the greatest Macedonian but if
you insist on another Bulgarian - that is your personal choice. However,
Vapcarov was also a son of his mother and his mother knew better than you
what nationality her son was. And Vapcarov also knew his nationality
better than you - otherwise, why not somebody else knowing what you are and
what you are not? If some people involve party politics in the
discussion about Vapcarov that only makes them missing the point. And also
this stupid suggestion of giving and taking. Some people may be proud of
Vapcarov, others - ashamed and this is a personal choice. However NO ONE
has any choice deciding what Vapcarov considered himself and no Bulgarian
has a choice of deciding what Vapcarov is - you may hate it, you may
consider him as a shame, but a nation has to live with its shame and glory
alike.
> That is all I can say.
That's more than clear.
> You are
>obviosly not familiar with his writings otherwise you will never classified him
>as a "communist" (to many pity souls derogatory term).
Oh, yeah? Can you enlighten us on Vapcarov's writings :-). Or shall we
start with the writings of Purlichev, Miladinovi, or maybe those of Goce
DElchev :-)
>communists. Have you heard of Pushkin, Lorka, Kazancakis ( also
communists)?
YEah - Pushkin was one of the greatest communists in human history.
>Have you heard of J.London ? Have you heard of JFK and Bill Clinton, all those
>people above have one common thing, they were communists, right?
No doubt. And all they were Macedonians and not Bulgarians. And nowadays
the bad Bulgarians deny all those matters. Thanks for the info.
>I'm not familiar with Ivorov and I can say a thing about him.
He was a great poet and famous Macedonian voivoda. His biography on his
great personal friend Goce Delchev is worthed reading. I wonder why
this biography was never published in Skopie (or somewhere else in Vardar
Macedonia). Maybe you can tell us why? Any suggestions?
>the song. It is not about nationalisam. Vapcarov work, belongs to the cultural
>heritage of the World. Any person can find inspiration in his writings.
That is true and I agree with you on this point (no sarcasm here !!!).
> If you
>are Bulgarian, you should feel very honered by Vapcarov's choice to write in
>Bulgarian.
Vapcarov was Bulgarian. Whether he shall be honoured or not because of his
activities - this is another matter. However, he was Bulgarian, he thought
of himself as Bulgarian and you have to honour that. You have 0 choice on
deciding whether Vapcarov was a Bulgarian or not. There is nothing for
discussion in that.
>Pero Dimsoski,
Luben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I understand the world only as a field for cultural competition between
the nations"
Gotse Delchev
[from the biography of Gotse Delchev by Peyo Yavorov]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luben Boyanov
[del]
>Makedonski poet, neli taka?
Poeziyata e vupros na lichen izbor. Edinstvenoto za razbirane tuk e, che
po onvoa vreme oste e nyamalo Makedonska naciya, tui, che Makedonski vse
oste e bilo == Bulgarski. Tova ne mozhe da ne go priznaesh Pero.
>A Vancheto, jas mislam deka da ne bese negovata nerazumna politika,
Edinstvenoto "nerazumno" na Vanche e, che se e boril sus Srubskata tiraniya i
teror - kakto sega Bosnyanci se boryat. Ako Bosnia ostane srubska, sled
godini, te ste znayat, che papata, Iran, Turciya i Germania sa strelyali i
izbivali v Bosnia... Drugoto "nerazumno" e, che golemiya Makedonski sin
Vanche Mihailov si e zapazil etnicheskite koreni, a ne se e surbiziral.
Dneshnite Skopski upravnici razpredelyat koi sa Makedonci i koi ne v
zavisimost kak sa se otnasyali kum srubskoto gospodstvo. Vanche ne e
blizal ... kakto e pravil tova edin drug bulgarin - Vlahov (sram za
bulgarite, ala i nie si imame plyavata) ta zatova Vanche e otrechen e da
bude Makedonec. Todor Aleksandrov susto e otrechen da e Makedonec. A tova
sa 2-ta nai-izvestni vodachi na VMRO i susto taka vuzpeti v Makedonski
narodni pesni, zabraneni vuv Vardar Makedonia - surpise, surprise Pero?
Makedonski pesni zabraneni v "Makedonia".
Luben Boyanov
[del]
>>always insisted that her son is Bulgarian. Actually, do WE have to care
>>at all? I have always found amusing that people look desperately in the
>>past for a source of "national pride."
>
> I agree. But why I never said that Hristo Botev, World' greatest patriotic
>song writer was Macedonian?
Because Botev was Thracian :-)
> Because he was trully Bulgarian and he always
>emphisised that.
It is undisputed that as much trully Bulgarians as Botev were Miladinovi,
Vazov, Purlichev, ZHinzisof, Delchev, Gruev, etc, etc.
> No, I do not look in the past as a source of "national pride".
WHat is wrong to be proud of our hero Goce Delchev? There is some pride in
the past, there is also shame. So what? It is elsewhere the same.
>And again, if you like Vapcarov that much and you feel that belonges to you
>you can have him, that just shows how great he is. Also, I have a right on my
>oppinion too.
You have a right of opinion but you have no choice deciding the
nationality of anybody instead of him. You have to understand that.
>>I also want to ask whether someone knows anything about the rumors that
>>the BULGARIAN poetess Elisaveta Bagrijana could have prevented the death
>>of Vapcarov, but chose not to?
>
>Lets do not open unhealed wounds. The families still exsits and they should
>have normall life, we have no right to disturb theirs privacy.
And Vapcarov's family knows rather well what nationality they are/were. As
for Bagriana - that is a widespread rummor, but I doubt there are documents
on that matter. And for sure the late Bagryana would have never said if
such thing was true.
>Pero Dimsoski
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most
important of all the lessons that history has to teach."
Aldous Huxley
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maria D. Popova
l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
> It is ridiculous to claim that 1/4th of Bulgaria is "cousins" with the rest
> of the country. Or that Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev,
> etc, etc were something like BUlgarians... (sort of cousins) - such list is
> far bigger than most of us can imagine...
Of course, the word cousin was used in a figurative sense, but I think
the analogy is right. Cousins come from one and the same parents, just
like Bulgarians and Macedonians have common ancestors. However, cousins
are more different from brothers or sisters, just like Bulgarians and
Macedonians have diverged over the years of separation.
Am I right in assuming that according to you it is not too late to
reunify Bulgaria and Macedonia? If you really think so, I must
disagree. I think that at the present moment Macedonians indeed have
different ethnic conscience and have the right of self-determination
(I'm repeating this). It's useless to quarrel over the past, becase
this can't lead us to anyhting good. I think that Bulgaria and
Macedonia have to establish close relationship on an INTERSTATE level,
and people who have doubts about their nationality and one day resolve
them can move to live in the country of their choice. Well, I know that
this sounds very idealistic, but that's the thing we have to stive for.
Not unification or confrontation.
That's why I completely agree with Toshko that the argument over the
wording of the document was a really silly thing to do. It's a
political mistake that should have been avoided as Bulgaria has no
sound reason to insist on the original words.
Maria
Pero Dimsoski
In article <2q32cp$5...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Is this a refreshing air comming from a Black Sea or I'm dreaming? People were
telling me that Bulgarians are tired of beeing on the looser's side and that
they trully like to open themselfs ( and theirs country) and establish good and
sound relation with Macedonia, it was hard to belive. I know that President
Zhelev is a man with a european vision but still I never tought that he had
support among young Bulgarians.
Pero Dimsoski
Martin Mintchev
: Is this a refreshing air comming from a Black Sea or I'm dreaming? People were
: telling me that Bulgarians are tired of beeing on the looser's side and that
: they trully like to open themselfs ( and theirs country) and establish good and
: sound relation with Macedonia, it was hard to belive. I know that President
: Zhelev is a man with a european vision but still I never tought that he had
: support among young Bulgarians.
: Pero Dimsoski
Pero, Pero. Be more careful, and you will soon find out that most of Bulgarians
are not that bad, after all. Especially the young ones. Without Communism, and
with genuine tolerance and mutual understanding, we are going to make it work,
Pero.
Take it easy, and read more non-political poetry to your girlfriend.
Regards, Martin.
Plamen Bliznakov
Macedonian question. I'll try to show them as objectively as I
could. Hopefully, with some corrections and a lot of additional
input from others this could be upgraded to a FAQ for Bulgarians
and non-Bulgarians alike.
I apologize in advance to all who will feel bored by the long posting
while not having enough interest in the subject (remember, you can always
skip it using the "next" key :-)).
In article <2q32cp$5...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Maria.D...@dartmouth.edu (Maria D. Popova) writes...
>In article <15...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>
>> It is ridiculous to claim that 1/4th of Bulgaria is "cousins" with the rest
>> of the country. Or that Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev,
>> etc, etc were something like Bulgarians... (sort of cousins) - such list is
>> far bigger than most of us can imagine...
>
>Of course, the word cousin was used in a figurative sense, but I think
>the analogy is right. Cousins come from one and the same parents, just
>like Bulgarians and Macedonians have common ancestors.
I guess, in some cases (like this one) it is necessary to clarify
what kind of "Macedonians" is meant. I think, the word "Macedonian" could
denote at least the following 5 things :
1 A person from the geographic region of Macedonia or one whose ancestors
came from that region (which includes Northern Greek province with the
same name, the newly independent republic with the same name, Pirin
Macedonia in Bulgaria, and, depending on the definition of the whole region,
part of Albania). Hence, one can perfectly well be Bulgarian _and_
Macedonian (in this sense) at the same time.
2 Citizen of the Republic of Macedonia (where, according to different
estimates, 20-40 % of the population is Albanian by ethnicity).
3 A person who considers him/herself "ethnic" Macedonian. A
commonly agreed upon fact is that this is a Slavic group, its
relation to the Bulgarian nation (which is also Slavic) is
disputed.
4 A citizen of the ancient kingdom of Philip & his son Alexander the
Great. Although the official position of the authorities in
the newly independent Republic of Macedonia is that it was just a
kingdom on the same territory as the current state, no direct relations
between them, some groups (esp., emigrant groups "of kind" (3)
including the organization OMO "Ilinden" in Bulgaria)
claim direct relationship. The official authorities in Skopje,
on their behalf, seem to do little to oppose those views,
and have even chosen the Star of Vergina - symbol of Philip of the
Macedon found relatively recently in Greek (Aegean) Macedonia -
as their national emblem.
5 A citizen of other ancient states in the region of Macedonia
(e.g., Byzantium or the Kingdom of Samuil). In some of the cases,
the official position of the historians in the Republic of Macedonia
(sometimes called Macedonist) support "Macedonian "of kind" (3)"
character of those states (e.g., Kingdom of Samuil), while independent
researchers (e.g., Runciman) and archeological findings (including some
on the territory of that republic) support the Bulgarian character of
that states (I guess, it's not even needed to mention the Bulgarian
historians' position :-)). In other cases, like Byzantium, the positions
are like in the previous case (Alexander the Great). I myself have
seen postings by Macedonists claiming that both Byzantium and the
Kingdom of Samuil are direct ancestors of the current Republic of Macedonia
(although both fiercely fought with each other).
Not specifying "the kind of Macedonians" one means could in some cases
lead to obviously incorrect statements like "Vaptzarov was not Macedonian".
Yes, he was Macedonian, but he also was Bulgarian (to my knowledge, a natural
combination at the time he was born). I am sure, Maria would not deny the
right of Krasen (I assume he has Macedonian ancestors since he has
a cousin in Skopje), Toshko or Ivoil to call themselves "Macedonian"
(_and_ being Bulgarians at the same time) only because someone else wants
to use that word in a different sense.
>However, cousins
>are more different from brothers or sisters, just like Bulgarians and
>Macedonians have diverged over the years of separation.
>
>Am I right in assuming that according to you it is not too late to
>reunify Bulgaria and Macedonia?
There are many questions on the issue, not a single one. For example,
1 Should an independent Macedonian state exist, or should it be
"absorbed" based on some arguments into, say, "greater Bulgaria" ?
While almost all Bulgarians on the net, the Bulgarian authorities
and many of emigrant Bulgarian Macedonian organizations have
undoubtly shown their position for an independent Macedonia,
the myth of "Bulgarian aspirations" against the newly independent
republic is continuously being spread in the Republic of Macedonia
as well as abroad. Occasionally, some Bulgarians accuse without any
reasons others in such aspirations (like Martin accusing me in December).
2 Is there a separate Macedonian ethnicity and/or nationality, different
from the Bulgarian ? If yes, when, where, and how was it established ?
Although to a person who doesn't have enough information on the
recent history of Macedonia (since, say, 1878) it might seem "logical"
that this issue is in direct relation with the previous one, this
is not so. Many people have argued for an independent state in
Macedonia while fiercely defending the Bulgarian ethnicity of
Macedonian Slavs. For example, the leader of IMRO Ivan "Vanche"
Mihajlov, whose birthplace is currently on the territory of
the Republic of Macedonia, has suggested that Macedonia should
be built as a country as "Switzerland of the Balkans". (The text
was once published on USENET and, I think, is available know
from the Bulgarian page on WWW.) {Remark : Actually, my feeling is that
the strongest opposition to "de-Bulgarization" of the Macedonian
Slavs comes from those who think of them not as of cousins, but
as of brothers and sisters - Bulgarian Macedonians. In fact,
often "brothers and sisters" is the literal relationship, not
"used in a figurative sense". I myself know a case of first cousins
living on different sides of the border and claiming different
nationality; I am almost sure there are siblings as well.}
So what are the specifics of Macedonia which made some people
defend the Bulgarian nationality of the Slavs living there, while
not supporting annexation of that territory by Bulgaria ?
First, it is the opposition of the "Great Powers". It obviously
was not in the interest of the "Great Powers" to see a strong
Bulgaria dominating the Balkans, so Berlin treaty of 1878 returned
Macedonia and other territories which were just liberated from the
Ottomans back to that empire. There was no reason to believe,
that later on the "Great Powers" would be more willing to accept
a greater Bulgaria. It was in the interest of the local population,
though, to get independence from the Ottomans (later from Serbia
and Greece). Because of that (if I am not mistaken ?) Bulgarian
authorities even suggested after WW I (when Bulgaria was on the
losers' side) that the country would give away part of its already
trimmed territory (losers at that point were paying by territory)
provided Greece and Serbia also sacrifice their parts of the region
of Macedonia to build an independent country. I think, this was
a rare move at that time when grabbing more territory (no matter
what population was inhabiting that territory) was considered
acceptable among the democracies. As one might expect, Serbia
and Greece refused such approach, exchange of population took place
(in effect, it was something called today "ethnic cleansing",
although at that point it seemed perfectly acceptable).
The second specific of Macedonia (not just then, but to a high
degree now as well) is the mix of different nationalities and
religions. It was not possible to cut off a piece inhabited
by Bulgarians only and join it with Bulgaria. Hence, analogy
with Switzerland, which has several ethnic groups mixed in one
country.
The fact that Luben defends the Bulgarianism of such Macedonians
as Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev, Goce Delchev, etc.
doesn't imply that Luben is for "re-unification". In fact, I know
from his numerous postings in the past that he is not (but
I am sure he himself can give more up-to-date information :-)).
As far as my personal opinion on that issue is concerned, I think the
principle of self-determination should be applied (i.e., the nationality
of a given individual is what that individual thinks of him/herself.
As I mentioned earlier, this might lead to peculiar cases in
which members of the same family belong to different nationality,
but this follows from the above definition of nationality.
3 Is there a separate Macedonian language different from the Bulgarian ?
If yes, when, where, and how was it established ?
There was a discussion on that issue last year and even some linguists
got involved (again, through cross-posting to sci.lang). I will
try to summarize my archives on the subject when I have more time.
In short, it turned out that there is no clear ("scientific") definition
what a language is and when does it become language rather than
a dialect. Hence, I think, discussions on that subject are not
very productive.
A good (I like it :-)) working definition of a language is "a dialect
with an army and a navy". The army and the navy which promoted
the local dialects to a separately codified language was the
Yugoslav People's Army after WW II.
Similarly to the issue of nationality, Macedonists claim that
the language spoken in the whole geographic region of Macedonia
is "Macedonian", a different language from Bulgarian (since the
nationality of all Macedonian Slavs is not Bulgarian). However,
formally speaking, the few grammatical features which are different
in the codified (literary) Bulgarian and Macedonian (e.g., accent),
point greater closeness of local dialects of Slavophones in Greece
and even in some regions of Vardar Macedonia to Bulgarian literary
language.
Many Bulgarians show readiness to accept the divergence of Bulgarian
and Macedonian languages. After all, the people lived in two different
countries, new vocabulary gradually (and sometimes not so gradually :-()
was introduced (I'll try to post an article by the late American
linguist Clarke on the creation of Macedonian literary language, but,
again it'll take some time :-()
The most vocal opponents of the admittance of the existence of
a separate Macedonian language, in my opinion, are Bulgarian
Macedonians. Especially vocal are those who in order to defend their
Bulgarianism had to emigrate from Bulgaria or spent some time in
concentration camps after Bulgarian communists (following the decision
of Communist International - Comintern) forcefully tried to de-Bulgarize the
population of Pirin Macedonia after WW II (what a paradox !).
I understand you position, Maria. However, you probably will be
able to understand the position of the latter group, just recall
how you reacted to the nonsense Pero posted about Vaptzarov not
being Bulgarian. I think, to the group of opponents of the
existence of separate Macedonian language, the creation of this
language was (and still is) the same kind of nonsense as re-writing
of the whole Bulgarian history in Macedonia (from Cyril and Methodious
and Kliment Ohridski to Vaptzarov).
As far as the recent "language incident" is concerned, I think
Bulgarian politicians would be stupid, to say the very least,
not to account for the opinion of a large portion of the voters.
>Maria
Best Regards,
Plamen
Nikolay D Mehandjiev
[deleted]
>|> In article <2pr4hm$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>|> pdim...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pero Dimsoski) writes:
>|> > have you read what he was writing about:
>|> > "Ovaa zemja po koj to t'pca sega,
Macedonian Language that stays here to
describe this sound, Pero?
>|> > ovaa zemje ne e mojta zemja,
>
The originala is (as I remember it - po pamet):
" Tazi zemja, po kojato typcha sega,
Tazi zemja, kojato proleten vjatyr probyzhda,
Tazi zemja - ne e moja zemja,
Tazi zemja, prostete, e chuzhda.
Nad mojta zemja v nebeto opira Pirin..."
So, yes, Pero, we have read what Vapcarov writes about, and yes,
Plamene, what Pero posted is a translation from a Bulgarian original
called "Rodina", which is published in the Vapcarov's book I have. We
have also studied this at school (in Bulgaria), and, if Pero did not
took the verses out of the context, we will see that this is a praise
of the beautiful nature of the region as opposed to Sofia's industrial
landscape and of one's region ("bashtin roden kray") being much nearer
and dearer to oneself than the alien (i.e. capitalistic) state. What
about the verses on a similar topic posted here a month ago
"...Rodinata ne syshtestvuva"?
On an earlier note about Elisaveta Bagryana i Vapcarov, I have heard
rumours that the poet himself did not want to be saved, although his
family (not Elisaveta) did have the means for doing it - Vapcarovs
were quite rich and very influential in the Royal Circles.
Cheers
Nikolay Mehandjiev
Plamen Bliznakov
>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>
>I think that at the present moment Macedonians indeed have
>different ethnic conscience and have the right of self-determination
>(I'm repeating this).
This was the position expressed basically by almost all Bulgarians on
the net (including Luben Boyanov). I just assume the meaning Maria puts
into "Macedonian" doesn't require all Bulgarian Macedonians to be
stripped off the adjective Bulgarian :-).
>It's useless to quarrel over the past, becase
>this can't lead us to anyhting good.
This is a very reasonable thought, I don't think anyone could
disagree with it.
>I think that Bulgaria and
>Macedonia have to establish close relationship on an INTERSTATE level,
>and people who have doubts about their nationality and one day resolve
>them can move to live in the country of their choice.
I myself don't support the idea of "national states". I don't see
why, say, Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia, should be made
to move to Bulgaria (or, say, ethnic Turks in Bulgaria should have
to go to Turkey). People should have every possibility to be loyal
citizens of the country they live in, while maintaining their ethnicity.
>Well, I know that
>this sounds very idealistic, but that's the thing we have to stive for.
>Not unification or confrontation.
>
>That's why I completely agree with Toshko that the argument over the
>wording of the document was a really silly thing to do.
I also think the wording of the documents (first, the agreement
which the Bulgarian minister Marko Todorov had to sign in Skopje,
and later the agreements which were supposed to be signed by the
presidents in Sofia) was far less important then the documents
themselves. As I pointed out in my previous reply to the same
posting, I don't think the language question is productive at all.
The co-operation is.
>It's a
>political mistake that should have been avoided as Bulgaria has no
>sound reason to insist on the original words.
This is a point on which I would disagree. There were at least
two sound reasons. First, I don't see anything wrong with the
wording "official languages of the two countries", while it
(as far as I understood it) was already in use in previous
interstate agreements and was satisfying everyone in both countries.
The new wording "Macedonian and Bulgarian languages" would
have made unhappy significant part of Bulgarian voters (see
my previous posting), while most of the others simply didn't care.
One option Bulgarian politicians had, was to ignore their voters
and simply meet the new demand of Macedonian officials in order
to avoid the incident. However, in the current political situation
in Bulgaria, this would have been stupid on their behalf, to say the
least (not that the politicians don't do stupid things anyway, but ... :-)).
Second, the wording was already agreed upon (at least, as far as the agreement
on Education and Science is concerned).
To me, the controversy was caused intentionally by someone in Skopje.
I don't think this was Kiro Gligorov himself "probing the terrain",
but who knows :-)) He seems to be very pragmatic and probably realizes that
the least desirable thing for his country at this moment is worsening of
relationships with Bulgaria. However, someone was probably looking for such
worsening.
Bringing up a controversial issue during the visit of Marko Todorov
didn't leave Kiro Gligorov with any other options two weeks later than
to make a clown of himself in the political circus of absurdity and
pretend he doesn't understand Bulgarian. BTW, it is a fact that
Kiro Gligorov has cousins in Bulgaria (in Sofia and in Gorna Orjahovitsa).
He mentioned about that in an interview he gave to BIP (I think,
the text of this interview is still available on magdanoz). I doubt
Mr. Gligorov needs interpreters to speak to his cousins. Moreover,
I think, couple of years ago in a linguistic discussion on USENET
a Serb author had written, that a nationalist Serb newspaper published
a written petition from Kiro Gligorov from the time he studied law
in Belgrade. According to the newspaper, in this protest Mr. Gligorov
complained that he is not able to take tests in his mother tongue which was
.. (yep, you guessed right) Bulgarian. Although I have not seen neither
the newspaper nor the copy of the petition, this is quite possibble
to be true. If this is not a theater of absurdity !
I think, the worsening of relationships with Bulgaria is needed to
someone in the ruling Socialist party in Macedonia to gain votes
(or rather, take away some votes from the "Bulgarophille" political
parties and movements in Macedonia). They are also going to have
elections over there, just like in Bulgaria.
This, of course, is a mere speculation on my behalf. The reason why
I think so, is that on April 22 Puls (one of the few newspapers
in Macedonia) published an article about the new Bulgarian (seemingly,
according to them, economic) "expansionism" in Macedonia and the
local "agents" of this "expansionism". I am inclined to think this
was no coincidence, but I hope I am wrong.
>Maria
Best regards,
Plamen
u898...@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au
> Bulgarians netters. We all know the facts too well. And for your info, language
> is a living thing, its keep changing and developing, I'm sure that is true for
> Greek language also.
> So, your before 18 century greek, is very different than contemporarry greek.
> Same is true for Macedonian. And in the broader region the language used was
> old Slavic and all the documents were writen in it.
The strange thing, and very annoying for some, it that the Greek language
has changed so little. I think like no other language. The point is that,
there is no evidence of a distinct Macedonian language ever befor
the 40's, anywere. Arguments like that are so easy to prove wrong, yet
they are not. Why ???
> Pero Dimsoski
>>Nick Giannios | GS Warriors in '95, '96, '97, '98, '99 ...
>>Computer Science IV | Panathinaikos in '94 and forever
>>University Of Manitoba |-----------------------------------------------
>>umgi...@cc.umanitoba.ca | 'Go ahead. Make my day' Dirty Harry Callaghan
George
Luben Boyanov
>
>In article <2q32cp$5...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
>Maria D. Popova <Maria.D...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>In article <15...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
>>l...@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>>
>>> It is ridiculous to claim that 1/4th of Bulgaria is "cousins" with the rest
>>> of the country. Or that Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev,
>>> etc, etc were something like BUlgarians... (sort of cousins) - such list is
>>> far bigger than most of us can imagine...
>>
>>
>>Of course, the word cousin was used in a figurative sense, but I think
>>the analogy is right. Cousins come from one and the same parents, just
>>like Bulgarians and Macedonians have common ancestors.
For GOd sake... It is important to understand - nowadays, Macedonians from
the Republic of Macedonia DO NOT FEEL BULGARIANS => we can talk about
different nationalities. However, there are hundreds of thousands people
in Bulgaria who still call themselves Macedonians and still feel
Bulgarians. And about 100 years ago, one would say that he is Thracian, or
Macedonian, or Shop, or Dobrudzhan, etc, etc, instead of Bulgarian.
>> However, cousins
>>are more different from brothers or sisters, just like Bulgarians and
>>Macedonians have diverged over the years of separation.
Maria, do understand that there was no such thing as "Bulgarian" in the
past - there were Moesians (Miziici + Dobrudzhanci), Thacians, Shops,
Macedonians, Rupci - those were dialect groups of Bulgarians. Just like
there were "no Germans" - there were different dialect groups. Last year I
talked to a French, who told me that about 100 (or more) years ago people
from Northern and Southern France can hardly understand each other. Maybe
the same was for Germany - for the different dalect groups. So - shall we
say "Germans and Bavarians" ? Or English and Lancastrians (?sp) Or
"Russians and Moscovites" ? (maybe somebody can give a better example).
>>Am I right in assuming that according to you it is not too late to
>>reunify Bulgaria and Macedonia?
I hate those talking on unifying Bulgaria and Macedonia. It is not our
business to even think of unifying with people who have absolutely no
intentions to do so. 100 years ago that was undisputed fact (see Goce
Delchev's words to Kosta Cipushev when the later asked on the matter why
they fight for authonomous Macedonia and not unification with Bulgaria).
However, nowadays those who talk on unifying of BG and Macedonia are only
playing in the hands of the Serboman propagadists from Skopie.
>> If you really think so, I must
>>disagree.
I have stated about 100 times that I DO NOT THINK SO and I have always
differentiated b/w the past and the present.
>> I think that at the present moment Macedonians indeed have
>>different ethnic conscience
!!! - GRAVE MISTAKE. THEY have a different NATIONAL consciousness !!! Hey
are using the Bulgarian folk songs, they are "using" Bulgarian writers and
poets (and their works) as "theirs", they are using Bulgarian heritage.
And ethnicy is NOT what you feel as belonging to a state - ethnic
consciousness is NOT national consciousness.
>> and have the right of self-determination
>>(I'm repeating this).
I've repeated it 1000 times. About 2 years ago I had a posting, where I
stated as a first point "Macedonians from Vardar are not BUlgarians because
they don't feel so. No one has the right to determine what they feel".
However, it is our right and duty not to allow others to change the
nationality of those who felt Bulgarian. Maybe you and others feel in a
different way?
>> It's useless to quarrel over the past, becase
>>this can't lead us to anyhting good.
I couldn't care less about the past if it wasn't used extensively at
present. I've read the overwhelming majority of articles in the Western
Press, I've read reports of comissioners at CSCE (Suveta na Evropa),
opinions by the Director of the Royal Institute for Strategic studies in
London, etc, etc. I've seen reports of Helzinki Watch, Amnesty
International. The Macedonian "obsolete" question IS USED nowadays against
Bulgaria. Bulgaria is portrayed as a "wolf", not a friend of Macedonia.
Macedonian press, when bashing somebody starts with Bulgaria.
"Macedonians" when abroad complain in front of International organizations
about the mistreatment of the "Macedonian ethnic minority" (according to
the census - 7 - 10 000, of which only about 600 - 700 have not declared
Bulgarian as mother tongue) in BUlgaria, thus creating a bad image for
Bulgaria. If all this wouldn't have been true, I wouldn't have opened any
books to check whether they were or were not Bulgarian. And it is rather
important that the world realizes that some 45 years ago there was no
Macedonian nation. I'm fine with its existence today. I can't see
anything wrong in nations being formed from other nations. However, to
claim that this was so for the last 1000 years, to claim that Bulgarians
were the biggest dogs, to claim that Bulgarians were supressning the poor
Macedonians who struggled against Bulgarian rule and terror, and this was
so for the last 150 years - all this was too much for me to accept, agree
and to keep silent on it.
>> I think that Bulgaria and
>>Macedonia have to establish close relationship on an INTERSTATE level,
>>and people who have doubts about their nationality and one day resolve
>>them can move to live in the country of their choice.
I don't know people who have "doubts about their nationality". Can you
elaborate please?
>> Well, I know that
>>this sounds very idealistic, but that's the thing we have to stive for.
>>Not unification or confrontation.
Of course.
>>That's why I completely agree with Toshko that the argument over the
>>wording of the document was a really silly thing to do. It's a
>>political mistake that should have been avoided as Bulgaria has no
>>sound reason to insist on the original words.
At the beginning, I only read the Macedonian point of view, so I thought
"Bulgaria made a mistake again". HOwever, I can see ABSOLUTELY nothing
wrong in the Bulgarian proposition "the documents to be signed in the
official languages of both countries" - I am puzzled why Macedonians didn't
do that. I am also puzzled why you shift the mistake to hte Bulgarian
side, which I think that up to this day made a lot of mistakes in regard to
the Macedonian issue but in this particular case, it seems that they did
their best to avoid confrontation, which was sought by the Macedonian side.
Do understand that it is the Macedonians who are with negative thoughts
towards us. Not vice-versa.
Regards,
Luben Boyanov
[del]
>This is a point on which I would disagree. There were at least
>two sound reasons. First, I don't see anything wrong with the
>wording "official languages of the two countries",
Interesting enough, the info from Macedonia "missed" the real Bulgarian
position. No Macedonian explanation was given (not surprisingly as the
real Bulgarian position was "missed") why the documents won't be signed in
the official languages of the countries.
> while it
>(as far as I understood it) was already in use in previous
>interstate agreements and was satisfying everyone in both countries.
Moving closer to real independence, the pro-Serbian circles in Macedonia
are so nervous. As a matter of fact, there were 2 immediate responses by
pro-Serbian parties in Macedonia, in regard to those "language" matters. I
remember that it was well reported in the Macedonian news how the "New
Communist Movement in Macedonia regards the recent visit to Bulgaria by
President Gligorov as of private or tourist nature". Macedonian news never
ever mention, or pass the views of IMRO-Ohrid, or other similar
organizations. WHy?
>To me, the controversy was caused intentionally by someone in Skopje.
Almost certain !!! Some time ago, with a friend here, we went to hear a
talk on the Balkans and Macedonia by a prominent British journalist, who
was in Macedonia. He also stressed that in Skopie, all ruling and
"important" circles are pro-Serbian. Seems they are trying to drag
Macedonia in ex-YU, but Macedonian nationalism have developed rather strong
that any Macedonian (from Skopie) politician can afford to do this in an
open way.
>I don't think this was Kiro Gligorov himself "probing the terrain",
>but who knows :-)) He seems to be very pragmatic and probably realizes that
>the least desirable thing for his country at this moment is worsening of
>relationships with Bulgaria. However, someone was probably looking for such
>worsening.
Gligorov's record from the past speaks hardly for any good feelings towards
Bulgaria. And I think that there were Serbian documents published how he
was enroled himself as Bulgarian in Belgrade, there was also something
about his language. For him to claim that he needs a translator is
something (OK - not exactly but...) like John Major asking for a translator
when talking to Bill Clinton.
>Bringing up a controversial issue during the visit of Marko Todorov
>didn't leave Kiro Gligorov with any other options two weeks later than
>to make a clown of himself in the political circus of absurdity and
>pretend he doesn't understand Bulgarian.
This was absolutely ridiculous.
>Mr. Gligorov needs interpreters to speak to his cousins.
Plamen, you may have a wrong point here. Do you know whether his cousins
don't speak Serbo-Macedonian? Most likely - not but. Another thing is
that being a relative to somebody does not make you speak the same language
!!! Finally, it was a rather well known story from the past, that in a
Macedonian family, one brother regards himself as Bulgarian, another - as
Greek and third - as Serbian (but the parents were Bulgarian :-))) ).
>a written petition from Kiro Gligorov from the time he studied law
>in Belgrade. According to the newspaper, in this protest Mr. Gligorov
>complained that he is not able to take tests in his mother tongue which was
>.. (yep, you guessed right) Bulgarian.
And I read somewhere that Gligorov has enroled himself in that University
as ... Bulgarian. Remember the yanichar syndrome...
However, the same story goes for Dimitur Vlahov and many other Bulgarians
who found it later far more convenient to become "non-Bulgarians" - money,
power ...
>This, of course, is a mere speculation on my behalf. The reason why
>I think so, is that on April 22 Puls (one of the few newspapers
>in Macedonia) published an article about the new Bulgarian (seemingly,
>according to them, economic) "expansionism" in Macedonia and the
>local "agents" of this "expansionism". I am inclined to think this
>was no coincidence, but I hope I am wrong.
Maybe Bulgarians will be curious to see how is Bulgaria portrayed in that
newspaper - actually, in the same way as this was done in Nova Macedonia
many times until now. As a matter of fact, the anti-Bulgarian tone has
softened recently. Whether this was only because of the visit of Gligorov,
or that is a general trend, has to be seen. If they don't slap the hand we
are giving to them - fine. If they do - I see little reason why we must
remain silent.
>Best regards,
>Plamen
Likewise,
Luben
Luben Boyanov
>Macedonian question. I'll try to show them as objectively as I
>could. Hopefully, with some corrections and a lot of additional
>input from others this could be upgraded to a FAQ for Bulgarians
>and non-Bulgarians alike.
That is great. We may make something like a summary on the question. We
can make a similar thing for other subjects.
>I guess, in some cases (like this one) it is necessary to clarify
>what kind of "Macedonians" is meant. I think, the word "Macedonian" could
>denote at least the following 5 things :
!!! GREAT !!!
>1 A person from the geographic region of Macedonia or one whose ancestors
> came from that region (which includes Northern Greek province with the
> same name, the newly independent republic with the same name, Pirin
> Macedonia in Bulgaria, and, depending on the definition of the whole region,
> part of Albania). Hence, one can perfectly well be Bulgarian _and_
> Macedonian (in this sense) at the same time.
And Turkish and Romanian. As a matter of fact, many Turks called
themselves "Macedonians". Last century, there was a Macedonians society
(or sort of) in Bucharest - organized by ethnic Vlahs...
>2 Citizen of the Republic of Macedonia (where, according to different
> estimates, 20-40 % of the population is Albanian by ethnicity).
>
>3 A person who considers him/herself "ethnic" Macedonian. A
> commonly agreed upon fact is that this is a Slavic group, its
> relation to the Bulgarian nation (which is also Slavic) is
> disputed.
Nowadays - yes. In the past, there was no such dispute.
>4 A citizen of the ancient kingdom of Philip & his son Alexander the
> Great. Although the official position of the authorities in
> the newly independent Republic of Macedonia is that it was just a
> kingdom on the same territory as the current state, no direct relations
> between them, some groups (esp., emigrant groups "of kind" (3)
> including the organization OMO "Ilinden" in Bulgaria)
> claim direct relationship. The official authorities in Skopje,
> on their behalf, seem to do little to oppose those views,
> and have even chosen the Star of Vergina - symbol of Philip of the
> Macedon found relatively recently in Greek (Aegean) Macedonia -
> as their national emblem.
Part of the myth. Some "facts" are "simple" - story goes like: "I am
Macedonian, hence I am not Bulgarian. THis has been for thousands years
(just like with me nowadays)". As a matter of fact, some 90 years ago, the
local Slav population (in Macedonia) considered Alexander the Great as ...
Bulgarian - the same simple logic- "I am Macedonian (regional name) but
Bulgarian at the same time. Alexander the Great was Macedonian, hence he
was Bulgarian (just like me)."
>5 A citizen of other ancient states in the region of Macedonia
There were 2 regions called Macedonia !!! For some time the region around
Odrin was the only (almost) region on the Balkans, called Macedonia.
> (e.g., Byzantium or the Kingdom of Samuil).
Actually, Byzantine dynasty of Basil I (born in the region of Odrin) was a
Macedonian dynasty. Basil II (the Bulgar-Slayer) was of the same dynasty.
So - they were both Macedonians.
> are like in the previous case (Alexander the Great). I myself have
> seen postings by Macedonists claiming that both Byzantium and the
> Kingdom of Samuil are direct ancestors of the current Republic of Macedonia
> (although both fiercely fought with each other).
Yes - those were very amusing. However, they exist and they also believe
in "their" story as do the guys from Vardar...
>combination at the time he was born). I am sure, Maria would not deny the
>right of Krasen (I assume he has Macedonian ancestors since he has
>a cousin in Skopje), Toshko or Ivoil to call themselves "Macedonian"
>(_and_ being Bulgarians at the same time) only because someone else wants
>to use that word in a different sense.
That is the point - it is not that Bulgarians deny the right others to call
themselves something - it is Macedonians from Vardar who deny that right.
The fact is that they have taken (by default) the copyright and claim to be
the true (i.e. ethnic) Macedonians. I see no reason why somebody else
should impose such "true" or "false" ethnic origin. If they sing the folk
songs collected by Miladinovi and Verkovich - they may call themselves
whatever (Macedonians, Marsians, etc), but the fact remains that they sing
Bulgarian folk songs.
>There are many questions on the issue, not a single one. For example,
>
>1 Should an independent Macedonian state exist, or should it be
> "absorbed" based on some arguments into, say, "greater Bulgaria" ?
> While almost all Bulgarians on the net, the Bulgarian authorities
> and many of emigrant Bulgarian Macedonian organizations have
> undoubtly shown their position for an independent Macedonia,
> the myth of "Bulgarian aspirations" against the newly independent
> republic is continuously being spread in the Republic of Macedonia
> as well as abroad. Occasionally, some Bulgarians accuse without any
> reasons others in such aspirations (like Martin accusing me in December).
And this is rather "strange" but sad - some Bulgarians support de-facto an
anti-Bulgarian position. Of course no one should think of "absorbing", or
of "unification". The examle with Germany is void in this particular case.
It is not a matter for somebody in Bulgaria to decide what people from
Vardar Macedonia want. However, it is not a matter of somebody in Vardar
Macedonia to decide what Bulgarian people are and what they have been for
The time before the text books of Stalin-Tito-Dimitrov appear.
>2 Is there a separate Macedonian ethnicity and/or nationality, different
> from the Bulgarian ? If yes, when, where, and how was it established ?
We have to separate the issues - ethnic issue is one, national - another.
Nation "X" can belong to the same ethnic group as nation "Y". Remember the
Swiss nation. However, when we take into account folk songs, language (not
nowadays, when the langauge is rather different due to political
intervention), etc, the view of who is what and who is not what, becomes
rather different.
> is not so. Many people have argued for an independent state in
> Macedonia while fiercely defending the Bulgarian ethnicity of
> Macedonian Slavs.
I think that all ideas were on autonomous state...
> So what are the specifics of Macedonia which made some people
> defend the Bulgarian nationality of the Slavs living there, while
> not supporting annexation of that territory by Bulgaria ?
> First, it is the opposition of the "Great Powers". It obviously
> was not in the interest of the "Great Powers" to see a strong
> Bulgaria dominating the Balkans, so Berlin treaty of 1878 returned
> Macedonia and other territories which were just liberated from the
> Ottomans back to that empire.
This question has, IMHO a rather deeper and "slightly" different meaning. The
"Great Powers" did not want a big Russian province on the Balkans. This is
the only reason why the Berlin congress was held. From various documents,
I saw that both Germany and England reconized that the ethnic boundaries
where Bulgarians lived (at that time !!!) were bigger than the boundaries
of San-Stefano. Hence - if it wasn't San-Stefano, maybe the boundaries of
the Bulgarian people wouldn't have been artificially cut. Hence - shall we
view San-Stefano as a "glory" and national pride or not?
> There was no reason to believe,
> that later on the "Great Powers" would be more willing to accept
> a greater Bulgaria.
I am not sure what you mean. All depends on which Great Power controls the
region. During the conference of Constantinople (1876-1877), Bulgaria was
proposed to be Eastern - under Russian influence, and Western (incl. M., of
course) - under Austrian influence. The conference failed... Could have
been that the example of developed Western and underdeveloed Eastern
country had appeared in Europe long before the years after 1945...
> The fact that Luben defends the Bulgarianism of such Macedonians
> as Ivan Vazov, Miladinovi, K. Sarafov, A Lyapchev, Goce Delchev, etc.
> doesn't imply that Luben is for "re-unification". In fact, I know
> from his numerous postings in the past that he is not (but
> I am sure he himself can give more up-to-date information :-)).
I hate some idiots accusing me (without having no idea on both the history
of the region and on what I "defend") in seeking "unification" or claiming
that I am "trying to convert" somebody in Bulgarian. Of course, one can't
expect rational thinking from everybody. As a matter of fact, I am rather
tired from that issue (because of repeating the same and the simplistic
views of many people - not that I won't like a proper discussion :-) ) but
I still think that we - Bulgarians must get the real story and don't feel
as (ot edin naroden izraz: kato nasrani v gasti) when our neighbours with
"objective" and "respective" information pour anti-Bulgarian crap under
some "cute" title (there were many instances wheN such approach was seen, the
last one of which was posted on USENET and was from a recent publication by
some respected and objective institute from Greece - I've seen worse but
this was had also a lot of "strange" things in it).
> The most vocal opponents of the admittance of the existence of
> a separate Macedonian language, in my opinion, are Bulgarian
> Macedonians. Especially vocal are those who in order to defend their
> Bulgarianism had to emigrate from Bulgaria or spent some time in
> concentration camps after Bulgarian communists (following the decision
> of Communist International - Comintern) forcefully tried to de-Bulgarize the
> population of Pirin Macedonia after WW II (what a paradox !).
Well, it is sad that some Bulgarians don't care whether Levski, or Goce
Delchev, or others stood for national ideals and those ideals were
Bulgarians. This is part of us and we have no right to "sell it", to "give
it away". One does not choses the past. One may like it, or not, but it
was there - no trading with such things is allowed. One can not chose the
founder of the First Bulgarian Empire. One can not chose the first
Bulgarian archbishop (Kliment Ohridski). One can not chose whether Goce
Delchev felt Bulgarian or not- he did. One can not chose whether the
April- and Ilinden uprisings were Bulgarian or not - they were both
Bulgarian uprisings.
Best regards and thanks for the interesting posting (and for the patience
of all who read it and thought on the questions raised by it),
Luben
Luben Boyanov
[del]
Sorry but I failed to answer the following q. (I only commented it):
>Am I right in assuming that according to you it is not too late to
>reunify Bulgaria and Macedonia?
You are completely wrong (as some others who "assume" what I think/regard
on the matter - however unlike others, you have neither read my earlier
postings to know what exactly I have stated on that particular subject many
times, nor you have started direct accusations based on that false
assumption). I've expressed many times my opinion that there is a "new"
nation with a "new" language (how, when they were created is another
matter) which are NOT Bulgarian. I also think that all those Bulgarians
who think in one or another way of unification b/w BG and Macedonia either
live somewhere in the past, or have no idea what the Macedonians from
Vardar think, how they have been educated, what portion of anti-Bulgarian
(and pro-Serbian) education they have received during their live (though
there are still some who have not lost their Bulgarian consciousness - it
will be interesting how many will register as Bulgarians nowadays - shall
the number 2000 - as from the last census - be exceeded?). It is a real
pity that some people still talk on that, and that many more think of such
scenario. All this serves Bulgaria no good !!!
>Maria
Maria D. Popova
> For GOd sake... It is important to understand - nowadays, Macedonians from
> the Republic of Macedonia DO NOT FEEL BULGARIANS => we can talk about
> different nationalities. However, there are hundreds of thousands people
> in Bulgaria who still call themselves Macedonians and still feel
> Bulgarians.
Come on, of course I'm not disputing this. This is exactly my
opinion--have I ever said that the Macedonians in Blagoevgrad, for
example do not feel Bulgarians--no. There is no need to convince me in
that--I myself am half Macedonian, but 100% Bulgarian...
Hope I made my position clear this time,
Maria
Maria D. Popova
Yes, I do understand this. And I agree that originally the Bulgarian
position was "harmless" to the political image. I think, however, that
it was a mistake to insist on the wording. If the Macedonians will feel
better with another wording--let them have it. As I have already said,
I see no reason for which Bulgaria will resist the change.
Maria
Maria D. Popova
> Sorry but I failed to answer the following q. (I only commented it):
>
> >Am I right in assuming that according to you it is not too late to
> >reunify Bulgaria and Macedonia?
>
> You are completely wrong (as some others who "assume" what I think/regard
> on the matter - however unlike others, you have neither read my earlier
> postings to know what exactly I have stated on that particular subject many
> times, nor you have started direct accusations based on that false
> assumption). I've expressed many times my opinion that there is a "new"
> nation with a "new" language (how, when they were created is another
> matter) which are NOT Bulgarian. I also think that all those Bulgarians
> who think in one or another way of unification b/w BG and Macedonia either
> live somewhere in the past, or have no idea what the Macedonians from
> Vardar think, how they have been educated, what portion of anti-Bulgarian
> (and pro-Serbian) education they have received during their live (though
> there are still some who have not lost their Bulgarian consciousness - it
> will be interesting how many will register as Bulgarians nowadays - shall
> the number 2000 - as from the last census - be exceeded?). It is a real
> pity that some people still talk on that, and that many more think of such
> scenario. All this serves Bulgaria no good !!!
>
> >Maria
>
> Luben
I couldn't agree more with this posting. I'm glad you made this clear,
and I withdraw any implications of accusations in insinuations about
unification (I know some sophisticated words...:-))) Anyway, I share
your opinion in this posting, but I have read other postings, and I
think you sometimes tend to contradict yourself. You're saying that you
would readily forget the past, but at the same time you go into an
argument about Grigor Pqrlichev who besides being well rooted in the
past (I don't think he is crucially important for the Bulgarian
culture) probably had indeed dual feelings about his nationality. When
you pick on such minute topics it is easy for the reader to conclude
that you are willing to bicker over details of the past.
Regards,