A Talk Among Leisured People

[Bruderhof News]

Check out this article at Bruderhof.com:
----------------------------------------------

A Talk Among Leisured People -
by Leo Tolstoy

Leo Tolstoy envisions a conversation in which "leisured people" discuss the
ironic gaps between what we know we ought to do and the what we actually do
(or don't do). Humorous for its circuitous logic, this anecdote nonetheless
gives reason for pause.

Read the rest of this article at:
http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These articles are posted as a service of http://www.bruderhof.com,
the official website of the Bruderhof Communities, bringing you
free e-books, articles, stories, poetry and reader's responses.
Sign up to receive daily readings by e-mail at
http://bruderhof.com/us/Subscribe.htm

This newsgroup is moderated by members of the Bruderhof Communities.
Responses are welcome, but will be screened for quality and relevance.

[Clara]

As stated in the book of Revelation: "Its sweet to the taste but bitter in the stomach." Its sweet to sit around and talk about spiritual teachings, but bitter in the stomach when it comes to applying it, living it in our daily lives. However, it really is sweeter to the stomach to live it once you know who you really are and experience that we are all one. We truly are brothers and sisters and servants to all, regardless of social status. Try it (experience it), youll like it! We are never too old to begin where we are today.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Cionca Teodora]

As the apostol Paul said once...the good that i want to do...this is what i dont do...but the bad things that I dont want to do....this is what I do. We are humans...we live in sin...but with the help of our dear Lord, we can be forgiven.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Debi Smith]

Excellent article. We are ourselves full of excuses and heartache for not obeying our hearts desire to follow reverently our God. How is it that we endure this torture for so long and so little reward laced with lament at what might have been? Let us press on...Let us begin today. Let us live for God Almighty in the way he prescribes.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[John Vizzuto]

The conclusion of the story presented by the stranger harkens us back to the sentiment of St. Augustine in his Confessions:

"O Lord, help me to be pure but not yet."


So we can see that warfare between our body and our souls is a fact of human nature. If we try to deny that we lie to ourselves. We are born with survival instinct which make us selfish and unwilling to give to others for fear of denying ourselves or our loved ones.

The principle discussed in this story is one of interdependence versus independence. Interdependence is Gods will for us because it is based on love and it provides us security because we are stronger in community than alone. This is why the we say ... e pluribus unim (from many, one) for in unity there is strength.

The malaise by which we recognize our wretched condition of sin and our wallowing in selfishness is called by some, "Black Grace." This is also called guilt. It is God,s stirring of our soul to let us know that we have strayed from His plan for our lives. We long for that fulfillment of feeling in harmony with Gods will.

It is my prayer that I and my family can get on and stay that path or way to God because I know how wonderful it feels. Last spring, my wife and I went on a mission trip to Nicaragua. My wife worked with doctors and nurses treating people and distributing medicine. I worked with a construction team that put a roof on a Sunday School for children. We also rewired the church and installed new lighting.

That experience brought light to us as well. I will never forget it and the new hermanos (brothers) I found there that I never knew I had.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Joel]

What a great article that well depicts the challenges one faces in daring to walk differently, the collusion of community holding each other in-line. Sparks of God?s Love in three individuals were quickly extinguished by the group. Imagine what a difference could be made if but a few in that same community would cast away their personal fear and self concern to then simply offer loving support to such bold pioneers.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Sher Mohammad]

I being a Muslim reader of the Bruderhof website am taught by Islam to place as much trust in Judaism and Christianity as in my own religion. This is because all three faiths are monotheistic and have followed one after the other. This gives Muslims an advantage to gain from the teachings and values of the preceding faiths. You might as well question why the Muslims in practice are no different and no better than Jews and Christians?
The simple answer is that Islams foundation lies on supplications (prayers). It started with Adam and his spouse. When they stumbled at the prompting of Satan and were descended on earth they prayed "O our Sustainer! We have sinned against ourselves and if You will not forgive us and have mercy on us we will be lost." Would you like to know that this supplication is a by-word with Muslims and most widely supplicated.
There is another supplication most commonly prayed: "O God, forgiveness is Your attribute and You love to forgive, so forgive me."
My tears rolled from my eyes when I read this supplication: "O my Lord, I vowed to be honest to you in my conduct but then I couldnt keep my pledge due to my weakness and did wrong to myself, please forgive me." Repentance and seeking forgiveness are the lifeblood of our faith. One wonders what prevents our fellow friends in other faiths to benefit from Islamic values just as we place our full faith in their religions?
Look at this supplication: "O our Sustainer! Help us on to remember you, to be thankful to you and to perform our rituals to your liking."

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Steve Esses]

"Only the doer learneth." Nietzsche

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Sweety]

I find this extract to be full of controversies and perfectly reflect the way that most of us, human beings live our life today. This is because we consider worldly wealth & materialistic belongings to be the basis of happiness and peace, which is completely false. To be in search of the ultimate truth is the start of the search for happiness and peace. If we, human beings realise that fundamentally we are not this body made of flesh and bone, but we are in fact souls made in the image of the Supreme Father (not in a materialistic way), but we are at the source peace, love, purity. We have to live our life in a way that would enable our souls to regain its orignal sparkle. We need not leave our family for that, but just change the way we live, live by the commandments of the Lord. Our thoughts, words and actions should be a reflection of the original sparkle of the soul. A simple practical question can help us to become that in any action that we undertake : "What would the Lord have done in my place, at this time ? Would He approve this action ?"

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Rita Friesen]

Were attempting to make such a change...and have thought or heard all of the above. Thanks for the reminder that we ought to LIVE for God NOW, and tomorrow, and the day after that, not wait for a convenient "someday."

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Patty]

I think that this is a good warning not to discourage those who have a conviction to act, in whatever way they choose to. Most of the people in the story were choosing not to change their lives, whether out of fear or out of greed. But we have no right to step in and dissuade someone from doing what their heart tells them to do. Of course, neither should we let others pull us from changing if we see we have been wrong. That shows your true strength of conviction, to do what you feel is right even when opposed.

It seemed to me that most of the people there only paid lip service to changing their lives. Its so few that actually do anything other than go along with what everyone else is doing.

Thanks for that story.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Rose]

I have read other Tolstoy works and like his musings on the human race. We are a curious sort for sure.
I know that I talk myself out of doing the difficult thing way too many times and notice when my Christian friends give me the easy way out.

At a worship gathering last night where our church meets once a week our speaking pastor focused on the command not to grumble but instead have an attitude of thankfulness. I think this attitude plays an important role on whether we can follow God faithfully or not. We clear up so much time for ourselves for God?s kingdom when we lay down our citizen/consumer/whatever rights and priorities we claim to have.

The people in Tolstoy?s story were still concerned about what ?rights? these people have in their special stage of life. The grumbling ensues and all matter rests on the immediate problems of their life. Not much time for spiritual awakening.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Dorothy Slater]

Interesting = especially int he light of what I think I know about Tolstoy - he sort of did exactly that as I remember - went off - leaving his wife with lots and lots of children to care for - something on the order of 13 or 14 I think - she wrote a very poignant diary about what life was like with him -and it wasnt easy.

Sometimes, people who are seeking to live the "godly" life are seeking it more for themselves and their own salvation than for God or others - - a lot want to be martyrs for the faith and end up doing more harm than good -


I wonder - cant we live "godly" lives within our own circumstances and families . Whos fault is it if one is corrupted by ordinary life. You take yourself with you whereever you go so if you cant live a Godly life here - why would you think you could live one there - I keep hoping more godly people would be the leaven in the loaf - the salt in the stew - out here.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Brian Dean]

Not everyone is just talking about it.... Here in Montreal a very decent portion of the youth are rallying, rejecting capitalism wholesale.. looking to the country, learning to compost right in the city, learning herbal medicine, Native American ways, the whole lot. Theres a lot of hope, but for Gods sake, we have to get more people to turn off their televisions and experience these things firsthand to know that they even exist. Some of these people will become examples for the rest and a chain reaction of sorts will commence. The ways of rampant capitalism are indeed coming to an end, they will soon reach the limit of their destructive potential....

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Deryll]

Recently I gave a rendition of John 7. As I thought about how to introduce the passage I realized that the reactions of people to Jesus of Nazareth is today much the same as when Jesus traveled through Galilee, Samaria, Judaea, the Transjordan... Some do call him Lord, some say he was a good man/teacher, while some, though, look at what he taught and say he is/was insane. It strikes me odd that so many (of us) who on the one hand call him Lord consider his teachings to be insane.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Claire]

Its an interesting article. Everyone talks about living a Godly life but no one wants to change, except one young man who the older men say is not fully mature enough to make such a decision to live and serve others. Like Jesus said ,"How difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." The status quo is much more secure and stable. Why risk everything for the unknown where things are not so comfortable.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[David]

Is God sending us a message? The earthquake, the severe storms around new orleans (X3) and the tsunami. Are these the wake up calls to say get ready I am on my way back? It raises the thought of hang on revelations have had a number of things come true in the past 5 decades or so. I think it is time to put the house in order as the master is coming home.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Robert Castleman]

Interesting article. What I see in this is that it is not wealth at issue, but the definition of service to Christ. What is it that prevents a poor person from serving Christ? Perhaps his bitterness at his station in life? His lack of material comforts? This is too easy an explanation. Love of material goods is only one thing that separates us from God. Some people, rich or poor, simply have no love for things holy. Justice, kindness, service and such are distasteful to them, whether or not they have material possessions. This story illustrates not only a love for material goods and shallow lip service to following Christ, but ultimately a lack of DESIRE for things Godly. The characters in this story even go as far as viewing living a godly life as a way to attain a reward, not as a way of expressing their love of things Christian. This reduces service to the acquisition of yet another possession. Which poses an interesting question. While theologically untenable, but as a thought exercise, if we knew that there was no reward awaiting us (no heaven or hell), would we still choose a life of service, justice, brotherly love and kindness?

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[N.A.Nathan]

There is lots to learn and change our traditional views from all that you give daily and your publications. Thanks you are opening my eyes day by day.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Gentry]

I cant help but wonder what would happen if Tolstoys group of leisured people invited some of their poor neighbors into the conversation. Privation and poverty might suddenly lose their romantic sheen.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Jeff]

We are all faced with a choice. We can continue as sinners and provide our own meaning as the world provides it or else we can allow Christ to provide the meaning of our life. Following Christ is not easy, but the world wants easy, practical and non-suffering solutions. It is easy to see why the older guests answer the way they do. But we also must guard against our selfish pride that may lead us to think that only heroic actions are the way to serve Christ (as the youth describes his plans). Christ calls us to deny ourselves, lift up our cross and follow him. The following from Wendell Berrys Sabbath Poems would offer guidance to our dinner party guests on making our choice.<br>

"Harvest will fill the barn, for that<br>
The hand must ache, the face must sweat<br>
And yet no leaf or gain is filled<br>
By works of ours, the field is tilled<br>
And left to grace. That we reap,<br>
Great work is done while were asleep.<br>

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Daniel Langner]

Truly a "Modern Day Job", if a hundred years, or so, can be still called "modern"...

Love. Love alone is Real. Love alone is measured by its Source. "Those who have not [multiplied their talents] shall be given naught"...

Mother Theresa told the Yuppy Americans to, "Go find your Ministry in your own back yard".

I am my brothers keeper.

The map is here, am I following it, or my own nose?

Peace comes from Love, not words...

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Dorothy]

Well Well Well. I think Im being told something these days. I just bought a used book, one of many, because I have a thing about books. It was Cal Thomas "The Things That Matter Most" And I marked in the book " For that matter, why even get out of bed in the morning, if there is no purpose for living beyond acquiring things?"Then Cal goes on to say "He Who Dies With The Most toys Wins" proclaims the bumper sticker. But wins what?" The grave, I guess. I appreciate you folks. Thanks for the reminder.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[EEE]

Indeed it is not easy to change old habits especially in old age which may not even be age in the literary sense but as a result of constant practice and intensity hence the saying "old habits die hard". On the other hand, there is only one way to heaven, the narrow road which many cannot enter and avoid even trying but leads to eternal life. In strewing along this narrow path, errors must be made, one is bound to fall but as the bible says, it is only those that persevereth to the end that shall be saved.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Kim]

Time is quickly passing. Soon it will be too late! Shed selfishness,fall on your knees and repent! To live you must die.
This is the groaning of the Holy Spirit in my heart. Why do we fear to die when we know we will truly live? I can only surmise it is love of self.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Claire]

It appears, even though much time has elapsed, the ideas and mores of society are very much the same. Those who are older always know what is best for those who are younger. Tolstoy relates it well. Thank you for the opportunity to read this excerpt.

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Frank Tavella]

For narrow is the way, and not many follow it. We all have reasons why we cant do what is required. The question is: Do we have the courage to be a follower, a disciple, even if it is hard? That is a question I must ask myself daily. The answer to that question is the hinge upon which my eternal life rests. Am I willing to Love Him? Others? Myself?

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm

[Jason Semeniuk]

In every age and circumstance, following a path that is close to god, brotherhood, collective consciousness/unity, evolution, or peace is something we have all held dear to our hearts. But alas it is clear that in every age and circumstance, acting on our hearts, presents a different struggle. Elders have too much experience, too little time, strength, or hope left. Youth have too much inexperience, too little support, encouragement, and choice to begin with. While everyone else somehow gets to a point where they feel that they have too much to lose. So in the struggle to break free, to let go, to a better world, we seem to either take two forms, that of a complicit to not letting go, or a refugee of hope for letting go with little or no place for your passion. Yet it is important, that we never forget to remember, that there is always something that joins all of us together in this struggle for what could be versus what is. I would say that that special commonality would be the realm of possibilities, drawing from a source. But to closer connect with that commonality, the obstacles we all face, are the detrimental effects of being almost predetermined tied to things around us that interfere with what would be the natural progression into the realm of possibilities of what could be that the better parts of us all remain so fascinated with?..

Responding to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/LeisuredPeople.htm