Confederate Flag No More
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Confederate Flag No More
What disturbed the Southern States deeply was that the 1850
Fugitive Slave Return Act was promised to be repealed by the
Lincoln platform for reelection. Moreover, Lincoln promised not
only to do away with that very unpopular act, but to abolish
slavery overall.
On the basis, *exclusive basis* of Lincoln's campaign promises,
the southern states threatened to succeed from the Union if
Lincoln was elected. The clear, unmistakable and obvious issue
the southern states had with Mr. Lincoln's campaign promises was
the abolition of the 1850 Fugitive Slave Return Act, and his
promise to try to abolish slavery completely.
Regardless of the debate raging on these newsgroups in respect to
what were the reasons the Southern States succeed from the Union
and formed the Confederacy, the single overriding and glaring
reason for succession was the preservation of slavery.
Apparently, many southerners wish to claim the Confederacy was
about more than slavery. Perhaps they are right in some cases,
but the main and most germane difference between the southern
states and the new Lincoln administration was the issue of
slavery. All other issues were minor in comparison and could
have been worked out eventually.
Nevertheless, in the single issue of slavery, the Southern States
and the Lincoln administration were both unyielding. The result
of which was 1.6 million people lost their lives in the war of
the Rebellion.
However, as terrible as that war was, the slaves were freed as a
result of that war, and in 1865 the United States followed up its
Emancipation Proclamation with the following Amendment to the
United States Constitution:
Amendment XIII
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly
convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place
subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by
appropriate legislation.
(The above specific amendment was a carbon copy of the amendment
proposed by Abraham Lincoln in his campaign speeches. The above
amendment language was what infuriated the southern states, and
what prompted them to succeed from the Union.)
It is obvious what the Confederacy stood for . . . slavery, and
the preservation of slavery. But what does "slavery" in the
context of the Confederacy really mean? In fact, slavery in the
context of the Confederate States of America was very specific,
it excluded Indians, and other races, but exclusively and
specifically involved Negroes, or African-Americans.
Questions:
1. Therefore, if a United States state house flies the symbol of
African-American slavery, is that state government de facto
telling the African-American residents of that state they will be
considered as second class citizens should they ever need to
address their rights and due processes under that state?
2. By flying the Confederate flag, are the government
representatives and the Police indirectly informing all of the
African-American residents of that state that they will be
treated differently from the white residents, both in the courts
and by the Police?
3. Moreover, even a more burning question would be whether the
statistical evidence of the historical treatment of
African-Americans in the states of South Carolina and Mississippi
by the Police and the courts reflect second class treatment?
I believe the answer to the above questions is "yes."
Consequently, I believe that flying the Confederate flag over any
United States state house is in direct violation of all state
resident African-American U.S. constitutional rights, as outlined
below in the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States of America.
"Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the
United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state
shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges
or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any
state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "
Consider that we have declared war on terrorism, and that we have
stated reasons of civil rights violation as a basis for our
political intrusion into the affairs of autonomous countries. I
say we should also declare war on "American Hypocrisy."
We need to demonstrate to the world that we walk the walk and
not just talk the talk.
Removing the Confederate flag from our state houses is an easy
way to demonstrate to the world that we care about all of our
citizens, black and white.
Moreover, removing the Confederate flag from our state houses
does not represent a "surrender" to politically correct forces
as many seem to believe.
This issue is not a politically correct issue, it is an issue of
law, and of constitutional rights that should be guaranteed for
all Americans regardless of their race or ethnic origin.
We need to put our personal prejudices behind us, and accept the
fact that flying this flag over a United States State house of
Government is not only an affront to all African-Americans, but
also represents a direct violation of their constitutional
rights.
Doug Grant (Tm)
--
De Oppresso Liber
Happy Birthday
Turn Hearts
The way we spell it down here
in the South is "secession" instead
of "succession" and "secede" instead
of "succeed".
But I guess many probably feel the
words are interchangeable.
Turn Hearts
-------------------------------
Gary James
Turn Hearts wrote:
>
> Sir,
> Removing the Confederate flag from our state houses is an easy
> way to demonstrate to the world that we care about all of our
> citizens, black and white.
Why should we feel any desire to "demonstrate" anything to the world ?
I would suggest that SC put a small Confederate flag in a corner of all
their welfare checks. All those blacks who are offended by it will
prove this by refusing to cash it and going out and getting a job. Or
starving. If you see mass starvation among the blacks this might be a
valid argument that they are indeed sincere on this issue instead of the
liars I take them to be.
Zulu 5 Oscar
diminishes the point of the post.
"Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:u7nj65e...@corp.supernews.com...
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Gary James" <gjam...@SPAMlycos.com> wrote in message
news:3C7BE217...@SPAMlycos.com...
Doug Says:
Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You are
making my point.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Secession is the better choice.
However, with that said many Civil War authors have chosen to use
the syntax "succession" instead of "secession" in the context
that the Confederate Government succeeded the United States
government in regards to the southern states. It was in that
context that I used succession. However, that usage probably
was an error now that I think about it.
Doug Grant (Tm)
"Zulu 5 Oscar" <tbr...@space.com> wrote in message
news:Z_Se8.986$pR3.1...@news.uswest.net...
Zulu 5 Oscar
"Gary James" <gjam...@SPAMlycos.com> wrote in message
news:3C7BE217...@SPAMlycos.com...
>
>
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You are
>making my point.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
You have taken flight and are now far out there winging your way
through the new deal and its forest of left wing socialist ideas.
Welfare is the product of a lack of preparation by the public school
system, sloth, moral decay, and drug addiction. None of these have any
connection to slavery. None are related to discrimination, though the
latter is often used as an excuse for lagging behind. Many private
schools have shown this to be a complete lie.
Perhaps reconstruction should have been given some consideration by
the North as they made war on the South. There is no evidence this
preoccupied the thoughts of abolitionist and general rabble-rousers.
Swamp Stomper
> Racist trash.
>
> >snip....
On this newsgroup calling someone racist trash and all of the epithets you can
come up with make about as much of an impression as calling someone nigger and
everything else. It's been done so much it has virtually no effect on
anyone. Some even take it as a compliment! So.... as it has been said,
build a bridge and get over it!
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Regardless of the debate raging on these newsgroups in respect to
>what were the reasons the Southern States succeed from the Union
>and formed the Confederacy, the single overriding and glaring
>reason for succession was the preservation of slavery.
Perhaps you should explain why the majority of the combatants on both
sides never owned a slave in their lives?
#vonroach
<turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>Sir,
>
>The way we spell it down here
>in the South is "secession" instead
>of "succession" and "secede" instead
>of "succeed".
True and there was no statement in the Constitution that said that
this was not allowed. In the case of the State of Texas, it might have
been deannexation rather than secession.
#vonroach
wrote:
>Ah, such pedantic nit-picking. The apparent syntactical error in no way
>diminishes the point of the post.
>
When a State acts in accordance with what it sees as its right under
the Constitution, it is a stretch to call it nit-picking.
Turn Hearts
> from our state houses is an easy
> way to demonstrate to the world
> that we care about all of our
> citizens, black and white.
Sir,
You seem to be driven to play the race card
and grandstand before your liberal admirers
like most northern liberal white men who find
it so easy to give away something as long as
it does not affect their lives, their families, their
neighborhoods, their pride, their beliefs, etc,
etc.
If you were truly concerned about someone's
feelings and wanted justice to truly be served
you would soon be faced with something that
you are not prepared to give away.
To you the Confederate Flag is just some old
rag flying on a pole that you think white people
are just playing "in-your-face" race games with
the black people in the South.
Blacks and whites were segregated when I
was growing up. When someone displayed
the Confederate Flag there were no blacks
in the area to "try to offend" as you seem to
suggest. When we had recess at our all
white elementary schools and played war
on the playgrounds, the Confederate Flag
represented the courageous out numbered
but not out-fought Southern soldiers and
not a bunch of white supremacists trying to
scare black people to death.
Probably most blacks would care less
about the Confederate Flag if it weren't
for you Northern hypocrites coming down
here feeling so sorry for blacks and trying
to befriend them by thinking of ways you
can make the white people around them
"pay" for their past conditions as if the
South hasn't suffered enough already.
It must be because you are so hung
about your own guilt about race that
you have got to outwardly express it
by constantly attacking southern whites
-- trying to fight the War all over again.
Now let's take your oh so generous give
away program one step further and just
see how willing you are to give something
away when it gets a little closer to
YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD!
Let's say we pull down all flags from
all state houses in ALL 50 states!
Fair! All of them! Pull down also
the Stars and Stripes -- US Flag
from all institutions!
Then we check out who were the native
people in each of the 50 states.
Which Indian or Eskimo tribe was in
control of the land of that state before
we (white men) got there?
If they did not have a flag before
the white men settled their region,
which I doubt they did, then we
send artists/flag makers to come up
with a design according to the natives
wishes that will become the official
flag for that particular state. We do
this in all 50 states. No prejudice!
Then after all 50 states have their
flags completed, we have representatives
from the native Americans of all 50 states
come together and decide what flag
would best suit the whole nation and
let them, with professional help, design
one that they all can agree on.
So here's how it comes down.
On each state house is a flag representing
the original people in the land. They
were here before the rest of us. There
flag is numero uno -- number one. And since
the other flags that came later made many of
them feel like 2nd class citizens in their
own land, then they should be banned!
You seem to like that concept! Banned!
Anyone caught flying an old state or US
Flag or Confederate Flag will be
fined/imprisoned! No exceptions!
Now everyone will be happy I am sure!
No playing favorites! Fair all the way
across the board!
Are you prepared to give up something
in your own neighborhood instead of
playing Carpetbagger and coming down
and giving away and plundering the South
like you and all of your kind have been
doing for the last 140 years?
Are you?
Your answer please!
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"#vonroach" <vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3c7d1da3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:25:05 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN"
> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You
are
> >making my point.
> >
> >Doug Grant (Tm)
Vonroach Says:
> You have taken flight and are now far out there winging your
way
> through the new deal and its forest of left wing socialist
ideas.
> Welfare is the product of a lack of preparation by the public
school
> system, sloth, moral decay, and drug addiction. None of these
have any
> connection to slavery. None are related to discrimination,
though the
> latter is often used as an excuse for lagging behind. Many
private
> schools have shown this to be a complete lie.
> Perhaps reconstruction should have been given some
consideration by
> the North as they made war on the South. There is no evidence
this
> preoccupied the thoughts of abolitionist and general
rabble-rousers.
Doug Says:
Vonroach, although your points seem to be common-misconceptions,
they are not inclusive of the effects of slavery and
discrimination on generations of African-Americans.
You know very well how hard it was for a Black person to get a
decent job up to about 20 years ago. And even today the
unemployment rate for African-Americans is disgraceful.
Poverty is a by-product of discrimination and poverty was
certainly a by-product of slavery. In fact, economic slavery
against African-Americans in some sections of the United States
still exists. Whether you bond a people with chains in the
fields, or bond then with economic chains in the workplace, they
are still slaves nevertheless. (Not to mention the penal
institutions.)
America, as it deals with African-Americans is a disgrace. Our
jails are full of African-Americans, and the poverty level for
African-Americans is higher than some third world counties.
Something very wrong is going on in America Vonroach, and we
cannot simply blame it on an inherent nature to be slovenly and
lazy. Nothing could be further from the truth.
We brought them here Vonroach against their will. Yet they have
managed to survive, and in some cases prosper. That is not a sign
of a race that is naturally backward nor lazy. African-Americans
are as strong mentally as any other Americans, they just need the
same chance as other Americans.
It is time, no *past time* to start lifting all Americans up to
the same level. First we need to find a way to keep these kids
out of jail and get them some really meaningful education.
Right now they question why they should even go to school. Even
with a degree they have less of a change to get a good job than a
white high-school dropout. Change discrimination against
African-Americans, and you solve not only their problems, but
ours as well.
When you claim welfare is a product of "sloth, moral decay, and
drug addiction" you are just listing the effects, not the cause.
The primary reason African-Americans are on welfare in the
numbers they are, and the primary reason African-Americans fill
our jails is because of discrimination in the work place.
Discrimination has long tentacles and they reach all the way back
to the Confederacy and slavery.
Also, this is not a "left wing" ideal Vonroach. It is simply my
opinion...and I am about as far from being a "left-winger" as you
can get.
Don't get me wrong, I do not have any instant solutions, and I
suspect it is going to take a long time before America treats all
of its sons the same. But I do have some suggestions, read them
below:
1. Forced education. Lack of discipline is the problem with our
school system. Teachers are not disciplinarians, and they
generally cannot control their classrooms. We need classroom
security, and we need it badly. Classroom security also will
protect students from other students, and will be in charge of
attendance, and making sure the parents of missing children are
informed of their child's absence. They will also maintain order
and participation in the classroom.
2. Integrated schools are essential. These kids need to get to
know each other. If they do, they will find out neither race has
horns.
3. Automatic College loans for students with a realistic and
achievable High School grade average.
4. Unlimited chances to take and retake SAT's, without averaging
previous scores.
5. Specialized government-sponsored job placement bureaus for
graduates.
6. Immediate Parole for all nonviolent prisoners that complete a
four-year degree or better while in prison. Along with job
placement and the restoration of their normal citizen rights,
such as their right to vote and bear arms.
7. Violent prisoners, excluding child molesters, with only one
offense, will be afforded the right of parole to any of the US
Military Forces for a period of four years, provided they also
achieve a minimum four-year college degree while in prison and
serve the Military honorably. (The Military will adopt special
units designed specifically for former prisoners. After a time,
these Soldiers can be integrated into normal units.)
8. A major University branch, financed by the US Government,
should be placed in every major prison. Internet education
should be made available for the smaller County and Municipal
jails.
I am sure others can add more suggestions, and I am equally sure
that if we really try we can find a way to solve this problem . .
. after all, we are all Americans.
Doug Grant (Tm)
- Pox of Lies ©
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:51:10 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>Doug Says:
<snip>
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
> > Grant: Removing the Confederate flag
> > from our state houses is an easy
> > way to demonstrate to the world
> > that we care about all of our
> > citizens, black and white.
>
>
> Sir,
>
> You seem to be driven to play the race card
> and grandstand before your liberal admirers
> like most northern liberal white men who find
> it so easy to give away something as long as
> it does not affect their lives, their families, their
> neighborhoods, their pride, their beliefs, etc,
> etc.
Yes I am a white man. But I am about as far from a "liberal" as
you can get. Moreover, why would the simple removal of a 140
year-old relic from a US Government State house have such a
negative affect on "lives, their families, their
> neighborhoods, their pride, their beliefs, etc,
> etc." ? Certainly you are not prideful of the Confederacy?
And if you are, why? Also how does the removal of that old
relic negatively influence your family, neighborhood and beliefs?
> If you were truly concerned about someone's
> feelings and wanted justice to truly be served
> you would soon be faced with something that
> you are not prepared to give away.
>
> To you the Confederate Flag is just some old
> rag flying on a pole that you think white people
> are just playing "in-your-face" race games with
> the black people in the South.
>
True. That is very close to what I think.
> Blacks and whites were segregated when I
> was growing up. When someone displayed
> the Confederate Flag there were no blacks
> in the area to "try to offend" as you seem to
> suggest. When we had recess at our all
> white elementary schools and played war
> on the playgrounds, the Confederate Flag
> represented the courageous out numbered
> but not out-fought Southern soldiers and
> not a bunch of white supremacists trying to
> scare black people to death.
Children's games. BTW, it was the same on the playground where I
grew up. But then we were just children, and we just did not
understand the truth or the harm we were doing. In my school
there were no blacks to offend, and I assume the same can be said
for yours.
>
> Probably most blacks would care less
> about the Confederate Flag if it weren't
> for you Northern hypocrites coming down
> here feeling so sorry for blacks and trying
> to befriend them by thinking of ways you
> can make the white people around them
> "pay" for their past conditions as if the
> South hasn't suffered enough already.
> It must be because you are so hung
> about your own guilt about race that
> you have got to outwardly express it
> by constantly attacking southern whites
> -- trying to fight the War all over again.
Now that is simply not true. If I did not sincerely believe in
what I am writing I would not write it. I also disagree that
African-Americans in the south do not resent and feel intimidated
by the Confederate flag flying over their State Government House.
They are the ones that are complaining about that flag, and
justly so.
I also realize this a very difficult and sensitive subject for
southern white men. I have heard it all before from white
southern men that fought in combat with me. I have also heard
the other side from Black men that also fought in combat with me.
I have been told by southern white men that their ancestors died
because of the Confederacy, and I have been also told by my Black
comrades that their ancestors *also* died because of the
Confederacy. Both have valid points, but only one side is right,
and the other clearly wrong.
I cannot change history, and I do not dwell on the mistakes of
our past. The south has more than redeemed itself for the Civil
war by sending more volunteers, black and white, to fight
America's wars and defend its way of life. I have nothing
against southerners, and in fact, love the south. But the
*south* has nothing to do with the Confederacy! Not any more.
No more than the United States today has anything to do with its
past mistakes and evils.
The Confederate flag is a symbol of African-American slavery, and
is an affront to all African-Americans, *especially* those that
have fought for the United States or sent sons to fight. Don't
you think they should be afforded the same opportunity for pride
in their state and country as you? IF you do, then take down
that damn flag!
>
> Now let's take your oh so generous give
> away program one step further and just
> see how willing you are to give something
> away when it gets a little closer to
> YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD!
>
> Let's say we pull down all flags from
> all state houses in ALL 50 states!
> Fair! All of them! Pull down also
> the Stars and Stripes -- US Flag
> from all institutions!
What IS the matter with you? Rabies? Look, we are not talking
about destroying the symbol of the United States and all fifty
states, we are simply talking about removing a foreign flag that
symbolizes African-American slavery from US Government State
Houses. The Confederate flag has nothing to do with the south
anymore, the south is not independent of the United States
anymore, we are all one nation. Look it up if you do not believe
me. The Civil war is OVER....(BTW, the south lost.)
>
> Then we check out who were the native
> people in each of the 50 states.
> Which Indian or Eskimo tribe was in
> control of the land of that state before
> we (white men) got there?
>
> If they did not have a flag before
> the white men settled their region,
> which I doubt they did, then we
> send artists/flag makers to come up
> with a design according to the natives
> wishes that will become the official
> flag for that particular state. We do
> this in all 50 states. No prejudice!
You need to go back a long long time to find the original Indian
tribe. The philosphy of the Native-American tribes was simple.
"If you are strong enough you can take my terrority."
Lands changed hands dozens of times based upon war between the
tribes. They lived and died by that code. When the white man
came along he simply represented a larger and stronger tribe. So
we took the Indian's land the same as they took it from the tribe
before them.
Most Native Americans accept this as truth, and the way of their
world. Yet I suspect that if we flew a flag depicting the battle
at Wounded Knee over a state house, they would raise bloody hell
about it....and I would be on their side. There is absolutely no
reason for any US Government to offend or shame any American
ethnic group.. If there is a Government Emblem or Flag out there
somewhere that is offensive to a particular American ethnic
group, then I say it should come down.
>
> Then after all 50 states have their
> flags completed, we have representatives
> from the native Americans of all 50 states
> come together and decide what flag
> would best suit the whole nation and
> let them, with professional help, design
> one that they all can agree on.
Actually, I believe they certainly should be afforded the
opportunity to have a vote on this issue, but unless the flag is
offensive to them, then the majority rules.
>
> So here's how it comes down.
>
> On each state house is a flag representing
> the original people in the land. They
> were here before the rest of us. There
> flag is numero uno -- number one. And since
> the other flags that came later made many of
> them feel like 2nd class citizens in their
> own land, then they should be banned!
None of the Indians were made into slaves Turn. Slavery is an
evil unlike all others. Granted many tribes were confined to
reservations, but they still were not slaves. Also, like I said,
none of the Native Americans feel offended by the American Flag.
They have rightfully adopted it as their own. That should be a
lesson for you Turn. It is your flag also.
>
> You seem to like that concept! Banned!
> Anyone caught flying an old state or US
> Flag or Confederate Flag will be
> fined/imprisoned! No exceptions!
Turn, what someone does personally is his business. Fly the
Confederate flag all you want. That is not the issue. The issue
is that it should not fly over an United States Government house.
It is a *foreign* flag that depicts slavery, it should not be
flown over a United States Government building.
>
> Now everyone will be happy I am sure!
> No playing favorites! Fair all the way
> across the board!
>
> Are you prepared to give up something
> in your own neighborhood instead of
> playing Carpetbagger and coming down
> and giving away and plundering the South
> like you and all of your kind have been
> doing for the last 140 years?
"Plundering?" "Carpet Bagger?" "All of my Kind?" Whew Turn! I
am not doing any plundering and I don't even own a carpet bag,
and I am not planning to visit the south soon. All I am saying
is that the Confederate flag has no business flying over a US
State Government House. That is hardly plundering or carpet
bagging. Calm down Turn.
>
> Are you?
>
> Your answer please!
>
> Turn, you need to let this Confederate thing go. Things have
changed. America needs to go forward and teach the world how to
get along with each other. We need to swallow our differences,
forget our prejudices and just try to be one people, under one
nation, and under one flag. I do not want to take away your
southern pride, I just want you to replace it with American
pride.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Country Boys with Guns
> their welfare checks. All those blacks who are offended by it will
> prove this by refusing to cash it and going out and getting a job. Or
> starving. If you see mass starvation among the blacks this might be a
> valid argument that they are indeed sincere on this issue instead of the
> liars I take them to be.
I feel that I know people fairly well- in other words, I'm a good judge of
character. (And I happen to be white) My good friend Chuck, who is black, is
an electronics expert specializing in Industrial HVAC automation controls.
Chuck stood up with me at my wedding, and has been a good friend for 20
years. Chuck's mom's family (the black side) are very good, decent, honest
old-fashioned folks who have worked very hard for the little bit they have.
Chuck is a Democrat. I am a Republican. But, when it comes down to judging
character, Chuck is the most trustworthy, honest individual I know. You
know, I haven't asked lately, but I'll bet Chuck is offended by the Rebel
flag and the idea of slavery in general.
Another friend of ours is half Chinese and half black. She is a 22 year
veteran chief master sergeant in the Army. She is a decent, hard working
woman who has served our country in the Gulf War, Bosnia, and will soon be
deployed to God knows where.
I haven't asked lately, but I'll bet she is offended by the Rebel flag and
the idea of slavery in general.
There is an area of the city of St. Louis 45 minutes from where I live which
is predominantly poor and BLACK. There is crime, drugs, prostitution,
extreme poverty, and welfare and food stamp fraud. Lots of crime born of
abject poverty and despair. I don't go there, out of fear.
There is an area of the city of St. Louis 45 minutes from where I live which
is predominantly poor and WHITE. There is crime, drugs, prostitution,
extreme poverty, and welfare and food stamp fraud. Lots of crime born of
abject poverty and despair. I don't go there either, out of fear.
If you want to generalize and say that "most welfare folks need to stop
having babies, get a job, and join the human race", then I have no problem
with that. But, you'd better understand that the majority of welfare and
food stamp recipients in this country are WHITE. Poverty and crime are
pervasive among a minority percentage of all our ethnic groups in this
country, (as is ignorance, you've proven) and is only exascerbated by the
prejudices which still thrive amongst large sectors of our people.
If you, sir, believe that all blacks are lazy, lying, ignorant and deserve
whatever treatment the majority citizens afford them, then I have something
to say to you that is very direct and to the point-
Shame on you for spreading your redneck diatribe on your computer that you
bought at Wal-Mart, making the world think that white Americans are bigoted,
lazy, lying, ignorant rednecks. Double shame on you for making us country
boys look bad.
God has no color, you insignificant little man- and your hatred is evil
incarnate. You, my sad friend, will be among the dust in the wastebasket
when the good is separated from the bad at the end of time unless you find a
way to stop hating an entire race of people for the shortcomings of a few.
Better find a mirror before it's too late.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
That is incorrect. You are forgetting the rights and authorities
of the United States that were ratified by all of the states in
the 1777 Confederation. The States that ratified the 1777
Confederation Articles relinquished their authority to take the
action necessary to withdraw from the Union.
Also, Slavery was forbidden in the country northwest of the Ohio
River by what is called the ordinance of 1787. The Southern
States agreed to that ordinance. Yet they invaded that territory
and attempted to bring slavery to that area.
Moreover, here is the reason Georgia stated it was withdrawing
from the Union:
"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political
connection with the Government of the United States of America,
present to their confederates and the world the causes which have
led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had
numerous and serious causes of complaint against our
non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the
subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our
security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and
persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional
obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use
of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive
us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the
Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been
pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse
the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed
the two sections of the Union for many years past in the
condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the
Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change,
hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not
redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and
dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and
demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern
confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts,
after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of
the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large
majority committed the Government of the United States into their
hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and
deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness
that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise,
progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political
organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal
Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced
verdict of the people of Georgia."
Georgia cited no legal precedent nor legal reason authorizing
them to withdraw the rights they had before completely
relinquished to the United States. The clear and unmistakable
reason Georgia and the rest of the Southern states illegally
withdrew from the Union was due to the issue of slavery - as the
above declaration clearly states.
It is clear to all with an open mind that slavery was the primary
reason for the formation of the Confederate States of America.
It is also clear that formation was illegal, and based
exclusively upon the erroneous position that a state can
capriciously "unratify" a previous treaty or Union of agreement
based upon a majority vote.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Doug Grant (Tm)
Doug Grant (Tm)
Keynes
Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
Josh Dougherty
This post is the product of a very short sighted and sorely misinformed white man.
Josh
Joel Edge
If welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination, what are all
of those whites doing on welfare?
Joel Edge
Joel Edge
>Ah, such pedantic nit-picking. The apparent syntactical error in no way
>diminishes the point of the post.
>
Missed it, Huh? Reread it.
Joel Edge
What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the fifties it
was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this country. Why
don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried and fought
for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
Scope's Monkey
lies as told by history, and we will not hear your new world order
politically correct lies on the subject now. the civil war had nothing to do
with slaves. it was oppression and taxation--just like the u.s. still does
to small countries abroad. open your mind--turn off your tv.
i fly NO flag. however, no matter how much you bleat and cry and parade on
cnn, you can't take it. flying a flag [any] used to be part of our
diminishing freedoms. when the shit goes down in the u.s. [and it will],
you'll be damn glad to see that flag.
we might rise again.
Turn Hearts <turnh...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:u7nj65e...@corp.supernews.com...
Zulu 5 Oscar
"Swamp Stomper" <cge...@darientel.net> wrote in message
news:3C7C3158...@darientel.net...
ken...@shangrila.net
#vonroach wrote:
Why should he? It's irrelevant.
Turn Hearts
> our past. The south has more than redeemed itself for the Civil
> war by sending more volunteers, black and white, to fight
> America's wars and defend its way of life. I have nothing
> against southerners, and in fact, love the south. But the
> *south* has nothing to do with the Confederacy! Not any more.
> No more than the United States today has anything to do with its
> past mistakes and evils.
> The Confederate flag is a symbol of African-American slavery, and
> is an affront to all African-Americans, *especially* those that
> have fought for the United States or sent sons to fight. Don't
> you think they should be afforded the same opportunity for pride
> in their state and country as you? IF you do, then take down
> that damn flag!
Sir,
You are a self-serving near-sighted liberal.
You say you are a conservative, but your
words show you are either lying or insane.
Do you realize that most Southerners in
1860 did NOT own slaves? I hasn't
registered yet in your brain I don't think.
Do you realize also that there were BLACK
slave-owners? Again, your brain can't
seem to absorb these facts.
Now the CSA is just about a 5 year snap
shot of what a small country was going
through while a larger entity, the USA, was
bearing down on and threatening and
did snuff out its very outward existence
but not its mind and spirit.
The USA has been given 200+ years to
change some of its past practices. Would
the CSA ever have turned away from
slavery as the industrialized world slowly
replaced manual labor? We will never
know because of the short-sightedness
of the men during that period.
For you to hang the "albatross" of
slavery around the neck of the CSA
when over 50 percent of their citizens
did not own slaves is wrong!
If England had put down our
"rebellion" and kept pointing out that
we allowed the "evil practices" to
exist that we did during the short
five year period that our little
"rebellious" government existed,
then you might see the hypocrisy
in your attack on an area of the
country where many do not share
your views of the world.
You like the South alright. Just
like a cartoon I saw of a big
Saint Bernard with a caption --
"I like cats. They taste like
chicken." You and all your
liberal like-minded carpetbaggers
would give away all of our
property, our hopes, our
dreams and our pride to black
nationalists and other political
groups because it is the politically
correct thing to do in your eyes.
Again, you and all your carpetbagger
northern fellows have used
race politics to divide and conquer
the South for your own political and
financial gain and you know it. And
you have the gall to require more
and more and dare us to resist your
attacks.
It's time for Southerners to wake
up and really see all these people
in the North for what they really
are -- self-righteous hypocrites!
During the CSA's brief existence
on the world scene, the North has
placed all the evils done in the context
of slavery on the backs of the white
people in the South while washing
their own hands clean of the matter
that they and yes even black slave
owners are guilty of. (Probably
the descendants of the black slave
owners today are the welfare pimps
who play the race card for their own
personal gain.)
Conclusion: The CSA was never
allowed to grow and mature as a
nation which I feel has some of the
nicest, most trustworthy people on
the face of the earth.
Turn Hearts
"DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:u7oskio...@corp.supernews.com...
Swamp Stomper
> >It's time for Southerners to wake
> up and really see all these people
> in the North for what they really
> are -- self-righteous hypocrites!
>
Not all of them are in the north. Atlanta has more PC Carpetbaggers than
anyplace in the U.S. and still growing. A cancer in the face of Georgia's
fine people. There is one good point to Atlanta, they never venture far
from their nest until they want votes.
Josh Dougherty
> DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN wrote:
> >
> >Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You are
> >making my point.
> >
> >Doug Grant (Tm)
> >
> >
> If welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination, what are all
> of those whites doing on welfare?
True. Doug mispoke on that one a bit. Welfare is a by-product of
poverty inherent in our system. The disproportionate number of blacks
on welfare is a by-product of discrimination that goes all the way
back to slavery.
Josh
Josh Dougherty
The guilty always send the innocent to fight their wars for them.
Nothing whatsoever is new there.
Josh
Josh Dougherty
> we did not hear your lies when belched by lincoln, we do not recognize your
> lies as told by history, and we will not hear your new world order
> politically correct lies on the subject now. the civil war had nothing to do
> with slaves.
That is completely fraudulant self-serving revisionist delusions. The
civil war had everything to do with slavery. Read the declarations of
cause from the confederate states:
http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
Georgia begins:
"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection
with the Government of the United States of America, present to their
confederates and the world the causes which have led to the
separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious
causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States
with reference to the subject of African slavery."
...so it's not about slavery? Interesting.
later, one of its' grievances:
"The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it
everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of
all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by
its leaders and applauded by its followers. With these principles on
their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the
people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers"
Mississippi begins:
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of
slavery---- the greatest material interest of the world."
could it be any more clear what this is about Scope?
Mississippi continues:
"Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest
and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products
are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an
imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to
the tropical sun."
one of Mississippi's grievances against the Union:
"It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes
insurrection and incendiarism in our midst."
Texas writes:
"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various
States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by
the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African
race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully
held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that
condition only could their existence in this country be rendered
beneficial or tolerable.
That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to
be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the
original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in
these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is
abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and
the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all
Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations
between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would
bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen
slave-holding states."
--------------
Slavery, slavery, slavery....on down the line. Enslavement of the
African race specifically....on down the line. The primary reason for
secession was to maintain slavery, African slavery.
How about some more?
The Confederate Constitution:
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/csa.constitution.html
The Confederate Constitution was in most respects a virtual
duplication of the United States constitution, with a number of
alterations and specific additions such as:
Article I - Section IX:
"4. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or
impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."
Article IV - Section II:
"2. The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges
and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the
right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with
their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said
slaves shall not be thereby impaired."
Article IV - Section III
"3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress
shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the
inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States,
lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at
such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form
States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the
institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate
States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the
Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate
States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory
any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories
of the Confederate States."
--------------
This is what the Confederacy stood for, and it's what the Confederate
flag stands for today: the oppression, ownership and enslavement of
the negro race. Period. You may say that this is not *all* it stands
for and there's other important things. Fine. But the Confederacy
and the flag DO stand for these things. Our government can not stand
for these things.
> i fly NO flag. however, no matter how much you bleat and cry and parade on
> cnn, you can't take it.
you can fly whatever you like. Our government can not.
> flying a flag [any] used to be part of our
> diminishing freedoms. when the shit goes down in the u.s. [and it will],
> you'll be damn glad to see that flag.
>
> we might rise again.
The Civil War is over. The United States won, and the traitors lost.
move on.
Josh
Son of Spam
> Doug Grant (Tm) (Descendant of U.S. Grant?) wrote:
>
> Confederate Flag No More
>
> What disturbed the Southern States deeply was that the 1850
> Fugitive Slave Return Act was promised to be repealed by the
> Lincoln platform for reelection. Moreover, Lincoln promised not
> only to do away with that very unpopular act, but to abolish
> slavery overall.
>
> On the basis, *exclusive basis* of Lincoln's campaign promises,
> the southern states threatened to succeed from the Union if
> Lincoln was elected. The clear, unmistakable and obvious issue
> the southern states had with Mr. Lincoln's campaign promises was
> the abolition of the 1850 Fugitive Slave Return Act, and his
> promise to try to abolish slavery completely.
You forgot to mention the fact that, in 1858, Lincoln was totally
unelectable. The Republican Party was completely dwarfed by the
Democratic party and had absolutely no hope of landing its candidate
in office. Then the southern delegates of the Democratic Party balked
on nominating the flaming moderate, Stephen Douglas, as their
candidate and walked out of the convention, purposely fracturing the
Democratic Party into three impotent factions. This was purposefully
undertaken to catapult Lincoln into the White House and ignite the
flames of secession.
Judging by the racism pervasive in the midwest and the urban sections
of the northeast, if these fire-eaters hadn't handed Lincoln the
presidency in 1859, then Lincoln, and the Republican Party with him,
would have faded into obscurity.
BTW, Stephen Douglas' "crime" was to oppose, on the basis of
territorial sovereignty, a federal slave code.
Also, FWIW, the Tarriff of Abominations was secretly drafted by Andrew
Jackson.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Couldn't be better. Yep feel great, couldn't be happier. Now
how are you feeling?
Doug Grant (Tm)
"- Pox of Lies ©" <p...@filthy.liar> wrote in message
news:3c7c6d9a...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
R.J. Adams
are keeping this foolish arguement going over flags that will always mean
something to someone. Right or wrong the individual flags whether it be Union,
Confederate or the United States of America will always mean something because
they will always serve as reminders of what our family ancestors fought for and
believed in. I'm sure it goes beyond slavery etc when citizens were called upon
to defend their beloved country or states. I'm for one am a descendant of
northerners most likely a kin to one of our great Presidents who hated the idea
of people having slaves. But I live in the south now for ten years and I don't
care if states still want to have a conferate flag alone or inplanted as part
of the state flags. I certainly respect and feel they have a right to display
any flag they wish.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Country Boys with Guns" <amer...@sharpshooter.net> wrote in
message news:u7otc9a...@corp.supernews.com...
HOO BOY! A rational person! I was starting to wonder.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
When you consider the percentages of the white American
population compared to the black American population, your
question should be answered.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
it. But simply dismissing my suggestions out of hand with some
vitriolic remark is not very credible.
Doug Grant (Tm)
>
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Your ancestors also probably carried and fought for several flags
as did mine. None of which belong flying over a US Government
State House. The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, and
is a foreign flag. Flying it over a US Government State house is
a violation of the constitutional rights of African-Americans
that reside in that state. If you are interested in preserving
your constitutional rights, then you will agree to remove that
flag.
If you are not interested in supporting the United States
Constitution, then you should leave the country. I believe the
borders are open.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Josh Dougherty
> > Grant: I cannot change history, and I do not dwell on the mistakes of
> > our past. The south has more than redeemed itself for the Civil
> > war by sending more volunteers, black and white, to fight
> > America's wars and defend its way of life. I have nothing
> > against southerners, and in fact, love the south. But the
> > *south* has nothing to do with the Confederacy! Not any more.
> > No more than the United States today has anything to do with its
> > past mistakes and evils.
>
> > The Confederate flag is a symbol of African-American slavery, and
> > is an affront to all African-Americans, *especially* those that
> > have fought for the United States or sent sons to fight. Don't
> > you think they should be afforded the same opportunity for pride
> > in their state and country as you? IF you do, then take down
> > that damn flag!
>
> Sir,
>
> You are a self-serving near-sighted liberal.
> You say you are a conservative, but your
> words show you are either lying or insane.
Sir, you are a self-serving deluded revisionist. The confederacy was
a mistake.
> Do you realize that most Southerners in
> 1860 did NOT own slaves?
So what? Those in charge did, and they turned against their country
in order to preserve their enslavement and exploitation of the negro.
The Confederacy does not and should not represent "Southerners" then
or now. I don't know why you hold on to it and want it to.
> I hasn't
> registered yet in your brain I don't think.
> Do you realize also that there were BLACK
> slave-owners? Again, your brain can't
> seem to absorb these facts.
Do you realize that pointing at a couple trees does not deny the
forest?
> Now the CSA is just about a 5 year snap
> shot of what a small country was going
> through while a larger entity, the USA, was
> bearing down on and threatening and
> did snuff out its very outward existence
> but not its mind and spirit.
>
> The USA has been given 200+ years to
> change some of its past practices. Would
> the CSA ever have turned away from
> slavery as the industrialized world slowly
> replaced manual labor? We will never
> know because of the short-sightedness
> of the men during that period.
>
> For you to hang the "albatross" of
> slavery around the neck of the CSA
> when over 50 percent of their citizens
> did not own slaves is wrong!
Irrelevant. The whole point of the CSA was to turn against the
country in order to maintain slavery for themselves. The fact that
half its' population did not directly benefit from this exploitation,
but were rather themselves exploited and sent to fight and die for the
misguided cause, does not change what the CSA was fighting for.
> You like the South alright. Just
> like a cartoon I saw of a big
> Saint Bernard with a caption --
> "I like cats. They taste like
> chicken." You and all your
> liberal like-minded carpetbaggers
> would give away all of our
> property, our hopes, our
> dreams and our pride to black
> nationalists and other political
> groups because it is the politically
> correct thing to do in your eyes.
The fact that you equate your hopes and dreams with a flag
representing a failed traitorous conglomeration of slave owners that
fought against your country to maintain their exploitation of the
black race, rather than with your own country, needs to be
re-examined. The fact that you think this "confederacy" was anything
other than a historical mistake, and that it does or should represent
"the South" needs to be re-examined.
Declarations of Causes for the Confederate States
http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
Mississippi's Declaration of Causes for secession begins:
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of
slavery---- the greatest material interest of the world."
one of Mississippi's grievances against the Union:
"It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes
insurrection and incendiarism in our midst."
Texas, in their Declaration writes:
"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various
States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by
the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African
race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully
held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that
condition only could their existence in this country be rendered
beneficial or tolerable.
That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to
be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the
original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in
these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is
abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and
the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all
Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations
between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would
bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen
slave-holding states."
In theirs, Georgia writes:
"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection
with the Government of the United States of America, present to their
confederates and the world the causes which have led to the
separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious
causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States
with reference to the subject of African slavery."
There's your "Confederacy" and what it stood for.
> During the CSA's brief existence
> on the world scene, the North has
> placed all the evils done in the context
> of slavery on the backs of the white
> people in the South while washing
> their own hands clean of the matter
No, both the north and south were guilty of practicing slavery. The
leaders of, and slave owners in the "Confederate States", which I've
said don't and shouldn't represent "the south" at all, have a greater
evil on their backs for turning against their country and fighting to
maintain this evil.
> Conclusion: The CSA was never
> allowed to grow and mature as a
> nation which I feel has some of the
> nicest, most trustworthy people on
> the face of the earth.
The CSA was fighting to prevent this very growth and maturation of
their nation.
Josh
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:u7pt6sg...@corp.supernews.com...
That does not matter Turn. There is no question that people that
fought for the CSA did not own slaves. But they were fighting
for the right to own slaves, and fighting for those that did own
slaves to continue to own, breed and trade slaves!
Each southern state declaration of secession proclaims that fact,
and so does the CSA constitution. So whether *all* those that
fought for the Confederacy owned slaves or not, that fact does
not deter from the irrefutable, clear and unmistakable FACT that
the Confederate flag is a well-known symbol of racism and
slavery.
> Now the CSA is just about a 5 year snap
> shot of what a small country was going
> through while a larger entity, the USA, was
> bearing down on and threatening and
> did snuff out its very outward existence
> but not its mind and spirit.
"Bearing down on it?" Turn, no one forced the southern states to
withdraw from the Union. And certainly no one forced the
Confederacy to fire on the United States Ft. Sumter! You need to
study history a bit harder Turn. Where are you getting all this?
KKK meetings?
>
> The USA has been given 200+ years to
> change some of its past practices. Would
> the CSA ever have turned away from
> slavery as the industrialized world slowly
> replaced manual labor? We will never
> know because of the short-sightedness
> of the men during that period.
Turn, you have a point, but the blame rest squarely on the
shoulders of the Confederacy. They threatened to seceded if
Lincoln was elected. Lincoln's platform was to repeal the 1850
Return of Fugitive Slave Act, and to abolish slavery. But before
any of those issues could even be presented for debate or
compromise after Lincoln was elected, the southern states
seceded, and fired on Ft. Sumter.
>
> For you to hang the "albatross" of
> slavery around the neck of the CSA
> when over 50 percent of their citizens
> did not own slaves is wrong!
>
Of course not. The CSA seceded from the Union for the primary
reason to preserve slavery. Read the declarations of secession
by the southern states. They *all* state that the preservation
of slavery was their primary purpose for withdrawing from the
Union.
> If England had put down our
> "rebellion" and kept pointing out that
> we allowed the "evil practices" to
> exist that we did during the short
> five year period that our little
> "rebellious" government existed,
> then you might see the hypocrisy
> in your attack on an area of the
> country where many do not share
> your views of the world.
This issue is not about North, South or England. It is about
flying a foreign flag, the Confederate flag, which symbolizes
slavery and racism, and violates the constitutional rights of
Americans, over a US Government State house. If you cherish your
US Constitutional rights, on that basis alone you should agree to
remove the Confederate flag from all US State Government
Buildings.
> You like the South alright. Just
> like a cartoon I saw of a big
> Saint Bernard with a caption --
> "I like cats. They taste like
> chicken." You and all your
> liberal like-minded carpetbaggers
> would give away all of our
> property, our hopes, our
> dreams and our pride to black
> nationalists and other political
> groups because it is the politically
> correct thing to do in your eyes.
This has nothing to do with politically correct issues. It has
everything to do with US Constitutional rights. You cannot
expect to enjoy your constitutional rights while you advocate the
denial of the constitutional rights of other Americans. We are
all the same Turn. Get that though your head.
This issue has nothing to do with anything you have ranted about
Turn. It is not about attacking southern people, nor is it about
power nor greed. It is about assuring the constitutional rights
for all Americans. Period, end of story.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Josh Dougherty" <jbd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eee564bd.02022...@posting.google.com...
Percentages answer the question guys.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
All we can do is read each southern state's declaration of
secession. All the declarations that have been posted here so
far listed the preservation of slavery as the primary reason for
secession from the Union. Those that fought for the Confederacy,
whether they owned slaves or not were well aware they were
fighting primarily for the right to own, breed and trade
specifically African-American slaves.
Perhaps some wide-eyed farm boys did not even know what they were
fighting for, but you can be sure their officers knew.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Son of Spam" <slippymi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:12d2e797.02022...@posting.google.com...
There also was the "ordinance of 1787" that restricted the slave
trade above the Ohio River if I remember correctly. Moreover,
your input on the southern states "purposefully" forcing the
election of Lincoln so as to have an excuse to secede is
interesting. Where did you find that information?
Doug Grant (Tm)
Son of Spam
Abrahamson's "Men of Secession" gives a great breakdown of the events
surrounding the self-destruction of the Democratic Party and the paths
that the southern states took to secession.
#vonroach
wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
And what is your motive for criticizing other's State flags other than
your own blind prejudice?
#vonroach
wrote:
The `US flag' is not mentioned in the Constitution. It is flown
symbolically to show ownership (capitol and government buildings,
functions, and offices) . It is flown for identity by the armed
forces. It may be flown as a symbol for patriotic purposes. It may be
used for advertising. It has multiple uses, as do the various
Confederate flags. If you want to design a flag and fly it over your
own office, plant, or home, that's OK too. Incidentally, many federal
offices and departments have flags or emblems to identify them. The
design of the flag is decreed by Congress with the advice and consent
of the President. They also generally put forth the rules for its
display when it is an official symbol.
Keynes
I don't like it, but it's your right. Your ancestors were fools
and you wish to carry on the grand old tradition. Fine.
You choose to be known as a racist living in the golden past,
and trying to bring all those good old things into the future.
If you wish to brand yourself a bully and a coward, how can
any one else object? It's a free country.
#vonroach
wrote:
Josh, they don't fight hard unless they have allegiance and belief in
what they are fighting for. No one in their right mind can accuse the
Confederate armies of not fighting very hard.
#vonroach
Quite the contrary. Why should anyone who does not own a slave put his
life in jeopardy to preserve it? Especially if one is short sighted
enough to regard the preservation of slavery as the _single glaring
reason_ for the War.
#vonroach
wrote:
>Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net> wrote in message news:<3C7CB61F...@planttel.net>...
If that is true, how do you explain the millions of black citizens who
are self-reliant. How do you explain those who are prosperous in their
businesses and professions?
Poverty is a product of failed education, sloth, moral decay, and/or
various addictions in any `group' you want to single out. Except for
malignant sloth, poverty is a curable condition.
#vonroach
wrote:
>vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com (#vonroach) wrote in message news:<3c7d1da3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:25:05 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN"
>> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You are
>> >making my point.
>> >
>> >Doug Grant (Tm)
>> You have taken flight and are now far out there winging your way
>> through the new deal and its forest of left wing socialist ideas.
>> Welfare is the product of a lack of preparation by the public school
>> system, sloth, moral decay, and drug addiction. None of these have any
>> connection to slavery. None are related to discrimination, though the
>> latter is often used as an excuse for lagging behind. Many private
>> schools have shown this to be a complete lie.
>> Perhaps reconstruction should have been given some consideration by
>> the North as they made war on the South. There is no evidence this
>> preoccupied the thoughts of abolitionist and general rabble-rousers.
>
>This post is the product of a very short sighted and sorely misinformed white man.
>
>Josh
A foolish comment by a stupid person who sees poverty and welfare as a
racial issue. This would be amusing to many county welfare agencies
and charities if it were not so prejudiced and dead wrong.
#vonroach
If you are at all interested the State flag is ordained by the State
legislature, and the right to fly any damn flag one chooses is
protected by the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution as the right to
freedom of speech. Period, over, and out.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Perhaps some wide-eyed farm boys did not even know what they were
>fighting for, but you can be sure their officers knew.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
Their officers in many instances declared they were fighting for their
homeland: R. E. Lee - Virginia, Thomas Stonewall Jackson - West
Virginia ... and so forth. They volunteered to lead their neighbors
when it became clear that it was the intention of the Administration
to wage war on the South. What you don't seem to realize is that after
cesession the US armed forces were occupying a portion of the
territory of the sovereign Confederate State of Georgia - Fort
Sumpter. What would be the position of the US if Cuba occupied the
Florida keys without permission? The forces at Fort Sumpter were asked
to leave and given passage to do so peacefully.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"#vonroach" <vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3c826c29...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
Of course they fought hard, and had damn good leadership in the
beginning. And yes, they knew what they were fighting for....the
preservation of slavery. They actually believed their race was
superior to the African race. Were they wrong? Of course. But
we are not talking about whether Confederates fought hard or not,
we are talking about whether the Confederate flag should be
allowed to fly over a United States Government State House. The
answer to that question is No.
You keep slipping away from the moorings of the issue vonroach.
But don't worry I will pull you back.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Vonroach, that is a good question, but impossible to answer
comprehensively. I don't know why they put their lives on the
line for the rich slave owners. I do not really know for sure
and neither do you. However, if you read all of the southern
state secession declarations, the primary reason for secession
was the preservation of slavery.
Moreover, if you read all of the rhetoric coming from the
southern states at the time, they were telling their citizens
that if slavery is abolished then *all* of the farms in the south
would fail. The reason was the prices for king cotton and king
tobacco would need to be at least doubled, and consequently the
strong markets for these products would evaporate.
Since the south was primarily an agriculture based economy, the
citizens of the south were convinced that if Slavery were
abolished they would lose their lands, farms and way of life.
And of course, they were absolutely right! So they fought, and
they fought hard, because their very economic lives were at
stake.
What the southern leadership should have done was to try and
negotiate some staggered method of replacing their slave based
economy. However, the radicals believed they could defeat the
Union if it came to war, and they did not really believe war
would come as fast as it did. The southern leadership knew the
Union was unprepared for war, and they doubted if President
Lincoln had the resolve to fight them. That "miscalculation"
proved disastrous for America.
(You know vonroach we could argue about the civil war forever, as
many have throughout the years, and neither of us will change our
minds. It is enough said that you have made some good points,
but I still believe the Confederate flag should not be allowed to
fly over any United States Government State house. Moreover, I
suspect you secretly agree with me but you will never admit it.
So let's put this issue to rest and go back to the present, we
have another war to fight. This one, I suspect, we are on the
same side.)
Doug Grant (Tm)
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>There also was the "ordinance of 1787" that restricted the slave
>trade above the Ohio River if I remember correctly. Moreover,
>your input on the southern states "purposefully" forcing the
>election of Lincoln so as to have an excuse to secede is
>interesting. Where did you find that information?
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
Gross overestimation of unity among southern politicians and northern
politicians.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>When you consider the percentages of the white American
>population compared to the black American population, your
>question should be answered.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
It has been, he just refuses to face the truth.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>...
A very through statement of their many grievances. Odd slavery was
omitted from a similar Declaration of `Independence' drafted by
Americans earlier?
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Nope, I am feeling fine. Actually I feel really good lately.
>Couldn't be better. Yep feel great, couldn't be happier. Now
>how are you feeling?
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
Careful, if you begin giggling, you may be mistaken for the village
idiot.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>...
Well, I was taken aback by the suggestion of US Government _financed_
universities. I pay taxes.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Vonroach, although your points seem to be common-misconceptions,
>they are not inclusive of the effects of slavery and
>discrimination on generations of African-Americans.
>
>You know very well how hard it was for a Black person to get a
>decent job up to about 20 years ago. And even today the
>unemployment rate for African-Americans is disgraceful.
More misconceptions. Guess what, a hue and cry for desegregation. Now
most universities are replete with their Afro-American clubs and
African studies . Gee whiz, I thought they wanted to filter in to
mixed communities. I worked with black guys in my `industrial period'
at the blast furnace. We mixed and did the same jobs, drank from the
same fountains, used same rest rooms, and took the same salt pills -
that was over 50 years ago. I've had many black neighbors and business
associates, but I don't patronize a person who wants to whine. Of
course the block busters and less than peaceful protests of black
panthers came along to dispell idealistic illusions. In my opinion
Jesse Jackson is a greedy demagog, just like Sen Bilbo of
Mississippi was. I try to judge individuals not groups unless they
congregate in gangs and groups and all act alike. I see many black
persons admitted to college, get jobs, and be elected to office
because they are black. It's known as quotas, affirmative action, and
99% block voting. Perhaps I should not believe my `lying eyes' and be
blind to the obvious truth. Slavery and discrimination is often used
as a support for madness like a drunk leaning on a light post for
support - not to shed light.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>That does not matter Turn. There is no question that people that
>fought for the CSA did not own slaves. But they were fighting
>for the right to own slaves,
That is your opinion. It appears to me they were fighting against the
erosion of the rights they highly prized and demanded be appended to
the Constitution as the Bill of Rights patterned after a similar
portion of the Constitution of Virginia.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>...
A long statement of misconceptions about among other things : the
significance of erosion of rights guaranteed in the Constitution,
statements slandering southern white men as a group,... etc. Guess you
don't know many southern black men, northern people of both sexes, or
southern white and black women. This is evidence of a biased erroneous
conception of prejudices.
Osama-Bin KENOBI
>decent job up to about 20 years ago. And even today the
>unemployment rate for African-Americans is disgraceful.
That's because so many African-Americans are a disgrace.
Joel Edge
The term "forced education" kind a threw me for a loop. You can lead a
horse to water........
Keynes
We don't need affirmative action? Racism is gone, north and south?
You don't believe that. You admit it when you say that all blacks
in scool or business are there only because of affirmative action.
You know damn well they deserve what they get. No doubt just
as there are whites who outclass you physically and mentally
there are blacks who also outclass you. Yet you say there
get where they get because of affirmative action. That's
a pretty racist idea. How come it's so easy for you to say?
Joel Edge
>Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net> wrote in message news:<3C7CB61F...@planttel.net>...
>
>>DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN wrote:
>>
>>>Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You are
>>>making my point.
>>>
>>>Doug Grant (Tm)
>>>
>>>
>>If welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination, what are all
>>of those whites doing on welfare?
>>
>
>True. Doug mispoke on that one a bit. Welfare is a by-product of
>poverty inherent in our system. The disproportionate number of blacks
>on welfare is a by-product of discrimination that goes all the way
>back to slavery.
>
>Josh
>
Wrong. Can't change excuses in mid-stream.
By the way, "welfare is a by-product of poverty"? Isn't that like
saying- Blood is a by-product of a gun shot wound. That's kind of obvious.
How did you come up with a number that is "disproportionate" and attach
it to slavery?
Joel Edge
Amen Brother! I was born poor, but didn't stay that way. I lot of people
that I grew up with are still poor.
Joel Edge
>"Joel Edge" <jand...@planttel.net> wrote in message
>news:3C7CB61F...@planttel.net...
>
>>DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN wrote:
>>
>>>"Gary James" <gjam...@SPAMlycos.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3C7BE217...@SPAMlycos.com...
>>>
>>>>Turn Hearts wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Sir,
>>>>>
>>>>>Removing the Confederate flag from our state houses is an
>>>>>
>>>easy
>>>
>>>>>way to demonstrate to the world that we care about all of
>>>>>
>our
>
>>>>>citizens, black and white.
>>>>>
>>>>Why should we feel any desire to "demonstrate" anything to
>>>>
>the
>
>>>world ?
>>>
>>>>I would suggest that SC put a small Confederate flag in a
>>>>
>>>corner of all
>>>
>>>>their welfare checks. All those blacks who are offended by
>>>>
>it
>
>>>will
>>>
>>>>prove this by refusing to cash it and going out and getting a
>>>>
>>>job. Or
>>>
>>>>starving. If you see mass starvation among the blacks this
>>>>
>>>might be a
>>>
>>>>valid argument that they are indeed sincere on this issue
>>>>
>>>instead of the
>>>
>>>>liars I take them to be.
>>>>
>>>Doug Says:
>>>
>>>Welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination. You
>>>
>are
>
>>>making my point.
>>>
>>>Doug Grant (Tm)
>>>
>>>
>>If welfare is a by product of slavery and discrimination, what
>>
>are all
>
>>of those whites doing on welfare?
>>
>
>When you consider the percentages of the white American
>population compared to the black American population, your
>question should be answered.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
No answer, Huh.
Joel Edge
>"Joel Edge" <jand...@planttel.net> wrote in message
>news:3C7CBA6...@planttel.net...
>
>>Keynes wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts"
>>>
><turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel
>>>
>battle
>
>>>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
>>>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
>>>
>>What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the
>>
>fifties it
>
>>was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this
>>
>country. Why
>
>>don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried
>>
>and fought
>
>>for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
>>
>
>Your ancestors also probably carried and fought for several flags
>as did mine. None of which belong flying over a US Government
>State House.
>
If, according to the people of that state, they wish that flag to fly.
Then it will fly. Despite outside agitators and generally nosy people.
> The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery,
>
Wrong again. The United States flag flew over this country longer during
slavery. Why don't you call it "the symbol of slavery"? Depends on your
viewpoint don't it?
> and
>is a foreign flag. Flying it over a US Government State house is
>a violation of the constitutional rights of African-Americans
>that reside in that state.
>
Hold the phone! The "violation of the constitutional rights of
African-Americans". Would you like to explain that little statement?
> If you are interested in preserving
>your constitutional rights, then you will agree to remove that
>flag.
>
The only ones trying to remove my constitutional rights are people like
you. Why don't you take up the Bible. Then you can annoy drunks,
adultrers, and other sinners. It would give you an excuse for preaching
to and annoying a wider range of people.
>
>
>If you are not interested in supporting the United States
>Constitution, then you should leave the country. I believe the
>borders are open.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
If people like me left this country the tax base would drop to zero.
Joel Edge
And until you can get enough people to vote it off. Which is why they
usually don't let people vote on the flag. Mississippi being the exception.
Joel Edge
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:28 -0500, Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Keynes wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
>>>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
>>>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
>>>
>>What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the fifties it
>>was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this country. Why
>>don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried and fought
>>for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
>>
>
>The `US flag' is not mentioned in the Constitution. It is flown
>symbolically to show ownership (capitol and government buildings,
>functions, and offices) . It is flown for identity by the armed
>forces. It may be flown as a symbol for patriotic purposes. It may be
>used for advertising. It has multiple uses, as do the various
>Confederate flags. If you want to design a flag and fly it over your
>own office, plant, or home, that's OK too. Incidentally, many federal
>offices and departments have flags or emblems to identify them. The
>design of the flag is decreed by Congress with the advice and consent
>of the President. They also generally put forth the rules for its
>display when it is an official symbol.
>
Thanks for that information. ???
Joel Edge
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:28 -0500, Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net> wrote:
>
>>Keynes wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
>>>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
>>>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
>>>
>>What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the fifties it
>>was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this country. Why
>>don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried and fought
>>for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
>>
>
>I don't like it, but it's your right.
>
Yes it is.
> Your ancestors were fools
>
My ancestors were people who supported themselves and didn't believe in
an oppressive government.
>
>and you wish to carry on the grand old tradition. Fine.
>You choose to be known as a racist living in the golden past,
>and trying to bring all those good old things into the future.
>If you wish to brand yourself a bully and a coward, how can
>any one else object? It's a free country.
>
Yes it is a free country.... so far. BTW, my family has been on this
property for about 170 years. We have never owned slaves. You have
called me a racist. How do you know this? Because I defend my heritage?
Because I don't believe in letting nosy people tell me how to live my
life? Seems to me you need to check out your own faults before you try
to tell me mine.
Scooter
> are self-reliant. How do you explain those who are prosperous in their
> businesses and professions?
> Poverty is a product of failed education, sloth, moral decay, and/or
> various addictions in any `group' you want to single out. Except for
> malignant sloth, poverty is a curable condition.
"Malignant sloth." I _love_ that term. Nice one, vonroach!
Son of Spam
Are you saying that the southern delegates did not walk out of the
convention en masse? If not, what are you saying? It would help to
clarify if you would reply to the correct person and form a complete
sentence. Just some constructive criticism... no offense intended.
Son of Spam
> Keynes wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:28 -0500, Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Keynes wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
> >>>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
> >>>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
> >>>
> >>What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the fifties it
> >>was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this country. Why
> >>don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried and fought
> >>for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
> >>
> >
> >I don't like it, but it's your right.
> >
> Yes it is.
>
> > Your ancestors were fools
> >
> My ancestors were people who supported themselves and didn't believe in
> an oppressive government.
Then why were the black codes and Jim Crow laws so oppressive?
Zulu 5 Oscar
The confederate flag symbolizes slavery. Slavery is in direct contradiction
with the following:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
This represents the very basis on which this country was founded. How then,
does flying a symbol of slavery over government institutions fall under
this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
And if he is thirsty enough he will drink. Forced Education in
the context I presented was mandatory classes conducted in
prisons. True, some will refuse to listen, but since they have
little else to stimulate their minds I suspect most will.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Gary James
Zulu 5 Oscar wrote:
>
> > If you are at all interested the State flag is ordained by the State
> > legislature, and the right to fly any damn flag one chooses is
> > protected by the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution as the right to
> > freedom of speech. Period, over, and out.
>
> The confederate flag symbolizes slavery. Slavery is in direct contradiction
> with the following:
>
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
Here is Jeff Davis's response to any idiot who thought Jefferson
referred to blacks in this opening phrase:
"...She (Mississippi) has heard proclaimed the theory that all men are
created free and equal, and this made the basis of an attack upon her
social institutions; and the sacred Declaration of Independence has
been invoked to maintain the position of the equality of the races. That
Declaration of Independence is to be construed by the circumstances and
purposes for which it was made. The communities were declaring their
independence; the people of those communities were asserting that no man
was born - to use the language of Mr. Jefferson - booted and spurred to
ride over the rest of mankind; that men were created equal - meaning the
men of the political community; that there was no divine right to rule;
that no man inherited the right to govern; that there were no classes by
which power and place descended to families, but that all stations were
equally within the grasp of each member of the body politic. These were
the great principles they announced; these were the end to which their
enunciation was directed. They have no reference to he slave; else,
how happened it that among the items of arraignment made against George
III was that he endeavored to do just what the North had been
endeavoring of late to do - to stir up insurrection among our slaves?
Had the declaration announced that the negroes were free and equal, how
was the prince to be arraigned for stirring up insurrection among
them?..."
óżó
~
Pa...@usa.net
I shall "FLY" my CSA battle flag with pride. I am damn proud of the battles my ancestors fought.
This beautiful flag is a symbol of Confederate Battles fought and nothing else. It is NOT
related to slaves, blacks, cotton or anything else. "YOU" yankees and blacks have been brain
washed into believing the CSA battle flag has an alternative meaning.
Also, it has nothing to do with or is officially associated with those skin heads, the KKK or
any other organization like those.
By the way, none of my family has never owned any slaves, white black or any other color.
"God Bless America", the South Shall Rise Again.
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
Doug Says:
We are talking about percentages of socio-economic poverty levels
as they involve race. There is a high apportionment of
African-Americans that are poor compared to Whites. That does
not mean that some Blacks have more money that some whites, or
the reverse. We are looking at the overall statistics.
Moreover, a high apportionment of Blacks are in our jails. The
question is why? The obvious answer is generations of slavery
and poverty, and especially discrimination. Where whites were
offered the cream of the jobs during periods of prosperity, the
blacks were not. Over time, statistically, discrimination
negatively influences the social order, mind-set and
accomplishments of the race that suffered such discrimination.
What appears like sloth, laziness and hostility to whites, is
just a by-product of despair and discrimination. Get to know a
black person. Get to know him/her well. You will find out we
are all the same. I say the same to the Blacks. In fact, I
believe many have said the same long before I....such as the Rev.
Martin Luther King as just one example.
We need to learn to understand each other, not as different
races, but as different Americans.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Zulu 5 Oscar" <tbr...@space.com> wrote in message
news:vzsf8.8$6E2....@news.uswest.net...
Doug Says:
It is obvious what the Confederacy stood for . . . slavery, and
the preservation of slavery. But what does "slavery" in the
context of the Confederacy really mean? In fact, slavery in the
context of the Confederate States of America was very specific,
it excluded Indians, and other races, but exclusively and
specifically stated Negroes, or African-Americans.
Questions:
1. Therefore, if a United States state house flies the symbol of
African-American slavery, is that state government de facto
telling the African-American residents of that state they will be
considered as second class citizens should they ever need to
address their rights and due processes under that state?
2. By flying the Confederate flag, are the government
representatives and the Police indirectly informing all of the
African-American residents of that state that they will be
treated differently from the white residents, both in the courts
and by the Police?
3. Moreover, even a more burning question would be whether the
statistical evidence of the historical treatment of
African-Americans in the states of South Carolina and Mississippi
by the Police and the courts reflect second class treatment?
I believe the answer to the above questions is "yes."
Consequently, I believe that flying the Confederate flag over any
United States state house is in direct violation of all state
resident African-American U.S. constitutional rights, as outlined
below in the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States of America.
"Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the
United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state
shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges
or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any
state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "
Moreover, removing the Confederate flag from our state houses
does not represent a "surrender" to politically correct forces
as many seem to believe.
This issue is not a politically correct issue, it is an issue of
law, and of constitutional rights that should be guaranteed for
all Americans regardless of their race or ethnic origin.
We need to put our personal prejudices behind us, and accept the
fact that flying this flag over a United States State house of
Government is not only an affront to all African-Americans, but
also represents a direct violation of their constitutional
rights.
Doug Grant (Tm)
--
De Oppresso Liber
Happy Birthday
>
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
"Gary James" <gjam...@SPAMlycos.com> wrote in message
they had a right to be "stirred up" to be made free. The bizarre
and twisted argument you presented above still, amazingly,
indicates you just do not get the point.
President Lincoln's election platform, which included the
promise to abolish the 1850 Return Fugitive Slave Act, enforce
the 1787 Ordinance that forbad slavery north of the Ohio river,
and to eventually abolish slavery entirely, were well within the
legal powers of the United States Federal Government, *awarded*
to that Federal Government by the participating States when they
ratified the Confederation of 1777! Moreover, all states that
joined the Union after that date also *ratified* the same
provisions, and agreed to the powers of the Federal Government
overall.
The United States Federal Government was not doing anything that
it did not have the legal right to do, and that legal right was
ratified by the very states that complained about those rights
when they seceded. The secession states were wrong to secede,
and the stated purpose for their secession contained in their
declararations for secession was to preserve African-American
slavery, and it fact, to expand it!
The Confederacy was all about preserving African Slavery, and
very little else. Complaining about infringement on state rights
in respect to slavery, where the sates had already relinquished
those rights of decision and rule entirely, is akin to a minority
group losing an election then disingenuously claiming tyranny,
and then openly rebelling under arms.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Keynes
The south has risen. And it's full of air conditioned yankees too.
The south has many things to be proud of, but the rebel battle flag is
not one of them. You see it your way, but others see it differently.
It is and has been the de facto flag of white racism. That's what
it stands for, regardless of your personal opinion. Everyone knows
that southern soldiers fought bravely and well. That's not the issue.
The cause was shameful. Firing the first shot was shameful.
Jim crow laws were shameful. Lynchings, bombing and burning
were shameful. Crooked courts and local government were shameful.
Hanging on to the past (which does nobody any good) is futile.
The war is over unless you wish to keep it alive with the stars and bars.
If you're not a racist, why do you want to advertise as one?
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:38:48 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN"
> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Nope, I am feeling fine. Actually I feel really good lately.
> >Couldn't be better. Yep feel great, couldn't be happier. Now
> >how are you feeling?
> >
> >Doug Grant (Tm)
> Careful, if you begin giggling, you may be mistaken for the
village
> idiot.
I doubt that Vonroach - I am not interested in your job.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:48:07 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN"
> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >...
> Well, I was taken aback by the suggestion of US Government
_financed_
> universities. I pay taxes.
Your taxes also pay for prisoners. There would be less prisoners
if Universities were located in prisons. Ergo, the Government
would save money.
Doug Grant (Tm)
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
You once again present problems without addressing the possible
solutions. What is your opinions in respect to solving the
problems? IF you are against affirmative action then state your
reasons. I will then incorporate a different newsgroup (like you
did on the Confederate Flag issue) to help participate in this
debate.
Doug Grant (Tm)
Swamp Stomper
No... we'd have better educated criminals!
-
DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:23:50 -0800, "DOUGLAS G.V. REIMAN"
> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >That does not matter Turn. There is no question that people
that
> >fought for the CSA did not own slaves. But they were fighting
> >for the right to own slaves,
> That is your opinion. It appears to me they were fighting
against the
> erosion of the rights they highly prized and demanded be
appended to
> the Constitution as the Bill of Rights patterned after a
similar
> portion of the Constitution of Virginia.
Doug Says:
Vonroach, the Federal Government had the legal right to abolish
slavery, enforce the 1787 Ordinance which states no slavery north
of the Ohio, and the repeal of the 1850 Return of Fugitive Slave
Act. Those rights of legislative action were provided the
Federal Government by the very states that were complaining.
Those legal rights were provided the Federal Government by the
states during the 1777 ratification of the Confederation, and
further were ratified by each new state that joined the Union
after that date.
The Southern States lost the Lincoln Presidential Election, and
they rebelled like spoiled children because of their loss....much
to the detriment of their own people.
The Southern Slave owner politicians convinced their constituents
that if slavery was abolished then the southern economy would
collapse. This meant everyone's small farms would go under right
along with the big plantations. That claim was, of course, true.
True if "suddenly" the southern slave based economy was changed
overnight. That was not the intention of the Lincoln
administration, that is to change the slave based economy
immediately.
Although slavery can be somewhat blamed on the Continental
Congress for its flourishing after the Revolutionary War, the
1787 Ordinance abolishing slavery north of the Ohio indicates
that long before 1861, and long before the slave based southern
economy began to grow, the Northern States had decided not to
embrace the evils of slavery.
Jefferson Davis, and other southern politicians, in fact, not
only advocated the preservation of slavery, they advocated the
reinstitution of the international slave trade! The Confederacy,
and its formation had nothing to do with "sate rights" it had
everything to do with the preservation and proliferation of
Slavery and the Slave trade.
Flying the Confederate Flag over a United States Government House
has nothing to do with free speech. The Confederate Flag is
foreign flag, a symbol of African-American slavery, and flying
that flag over a US Government State House clearly violates the
Constitutional rights of state resident African-Americans (under
the 14th Amendment). That flag should not be allowed to fly over
any United States Government State House.
Doug Grant (Tm)
#vonroach
<ab...@anarchy.gov> wrote:
>>You know very well how hard it was for a Black person to get a
>>decent job up to about 20 years ago. And even today the
>>unemployment rate for African-Americans is disgraceful.
>
>That's because so many African-Americans are a disgrace.
I would just say unemployable as a result of a failure of self
discipline and a lack of evidence of any benefits from the public
school system. Employable = ability to report regularly for work and
try one's best to perform such tasks as are assigned.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Your taxes also pay for prisoners. There would be less prisoners
>if Universities were located in prisons. Ergo, the Government
>would save money.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
This is your personal opinion, not supported by much factual data. I
am willing for my taxes to be spent to remove criminals from society,
but I have reservations about how much can be done to educate them in
prison. Repetition of criminal behavior upon release is very common
and supports my opinion. There are insane people and there are sane
people - there are criminals and there are law-abiders.
#vonroach
wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:28 -0500, Joel Edge <jand...@planttel.net> wrote:
>
>>Keynes wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:09:28 -0500, "Turn Hearts" <turnh...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel battle
>>>flag (which has been the flag of choice for white racists
>>>and cowardly KKK-terrorists even to the present day)?
>>>
>>What is your motive for flying the American flag? Before the fifties it
>>was openly flown at Klan rallies and marches across this country. Why
>>don't you condemn it also. The Confederate flag was carried and fought
>>for by my ancestors. If you don't like it. Tough.
>
>I don't like it, but it's your right. Your ancestors were fools
>and you wish to carry on the grand old tradition. Fine.
>You choose to be known as a racist living in the golden past,
>and trying to bring all those good old things into the future.
>If you wish to brand yourself a bully and a coward, how can
>any one else object? It's a free country.
The discussion is about a design designated for a State flag by those
with the duty of doing so. A Confederate flag is a relic of the past.
There are also many relics of past US flags.
#vonroach
Quite a few of us share that opinion, and Harvard and Yale are
furnishing an overabundance of them already.
>-
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>And if he is thirsty enough he will drink. Forced Education in
>the context I presented was mandatory classes conducted in
>prisons. True, some will refuse to listen, but since they have
>little else to stimulate their minds I suspect most will.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
>
Matriculation in public schools is regarded as mandatory classes
conducted in prisons by many students today, and they do not get an
education, just another opportunity to be disruptive.
#vonroach
wrote:
>We don't need affirmative action?
Not in my opinion.
>Racism is gone, north and south?
>You don't believe that. You admit it when you say that all blacks
>in scool or business are there only because of affirmative action.
Racism (black, white, etc) is a fact of human existence. `Affirmative
action has nothing to do with it. AA is a crutch given to some in
exchange for their vote, it has no effect on who they are.
>You know damn well they deserve what they get. No doubt just
>as there are whites who outclass you physically and mentally
>there are blacks who also outclass you. Yet you say there
>get where they get because of affirmative action. That's
>a pretty racist idea. How come it's so easy for you to say?
Easy for you, I didn't say it. I see AA as political pandering for
votes just like quotas and altered standards.
#vonroach
<gjam...@SPAMlycos.com> wrote:
>
>
>Zulu 5 Oscar wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> The confederate flag symbolizes slavery. Slavery is in direct contradiction
>> with the following:
No it was a symbol of a fact - the Confederate States.
>> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
>
An oft quoted statement by Jefferson in a letter to the King of
England stating that the Colonists had a legal right to life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness; that no one could arbitrarily cancel
these rights without due process. A person could not be executed,
imprisoned, or deprived of their property by decree, a proper legal
procedure was mandatory, and the person had the right to defend
themselves in court as existed for the citizens of England from which
they had immigrated. The drafters included lawyers familiar with the
Common Law and the derivation of its principles. The long document
goes on to list the many acts of the King (and parliament) that the
Colonists held to be contravention of these basic laws. To attempt to
make a theological statement from this legal document dissolving the
bonds between England and the American Colonies is folly.
#vonroach
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Of course they fought hard, and had damn good leadership in the
>beginning. And yes, they knew what they were fighting for....the
>preservation of slavery.
No they were fighting for their homeland, the South. If you are
misinformed on this, do you also believe that the US armed forces in
WW2 were fighting for the socialist policies of the new deal? I doubt
that very much. The federal government maintained a biased attitude
towards black citizens well beyond WW2 with segregated armed forces,
all fighting under the US flag. But that is incidental and not
relevant to our discussion about the Confederate flag.
>They actually believed their race was
>superior to the African race. Were they wrong? Of course. But
>we are not talking about whether Confederates fought hard or not,
>we are talking about whether the Confederate flag should be
>allowed to fly over a United States Government State House. The
>answer to that question is No.
Such prejudiced views were common among all American citizens at the
time, including A. Lincoln who favored abolition of slavery but did
not go beyond that point. Read his reported remarks in his debates
with Douglas.
>You keep slipping away from the moorings of the issue vonroach.
>But don't worry I will pull you back.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
I will be there to correct your phony idealistic revised `history'. We
are discussing whether a sovereign State has the authority to design
its own flag; and whether the States and the citizens there of still
have the right of free speech.
Erosions of Constitutional rights can be a very subtle thing. I know a
fellow who open a barbecue cafe outside Boston Massachusetts and
placed a Lone Star Flag on the front as advertising of a Texas
barbecue restaurant. He was ordered by the local authorities to remove
the Lone Star flag. Why was this flag so offensive to these Beantown
politicians, that they took it upon themselves to deny his right to
free speech?
#vonroach
wrote:
>Sir, what is the motive for your desire to fly the rebel
>battle flag
The Constitution denies the US government the right to interfere with
freedom of speech. `Motive' is irrelevant.
#vonroach
wrote:
>The confederate flag symbolizes slavery. Slavery is in direct contradiction
>with the following:
That is not fact. You should stick to fact.
>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
`Black' citizens have all the legal rights that others have, and that
is all that phrase means.
>This represents the very basis on which this country was founded. How then,
>does flying a symbol of slavery over government institutions fall under
>this:
>"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
>petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
This quotation comes from the Bill of Rights; one should read all 10
Amendments to get these Constitutional Laws in context.
You will never get a true perspective of history, skipping around
among these historical documents without some knowledge of the
background and context involved and from very different periods in US
history. You tinge them with a pc bias. The Declaration of
Independence was a legal document dissolving the Colonists from
allegiance to the King of England. The Bill of Rights were the first
10 amendments to the US Constitution promised to delegates from
Virginia and some other Southern States to get their support for the
ratification of the Constitution, without which it would probably have
never been adopted. The slave trade was and still is in parts of
Africa a very old practice. It is still alive in Sudan. It has
gradually shriveled and gone from most of the rest of the world. It
was widely practiced in Europe and the Americas during the early
period of settlement. It no longer exists legally in the US. Whether
multi-generational welfare, slums, and various addictions presents a
comparable situation for some today is debatable. Whether this is
aided and abetted by federal policies is also debatable. It is and
never was restricted to the black races. It is also clear that the
opportunities, rights and freedoms of all in the US today are far
superior to the norm seen in Africa.