Regarding "Sun Bear" AKA Vincent LaDuke
Pat
planning to use "the teachings of Sun Bear" as a
basis for educating children. I've been trying to
persuade her to advise her friend not to do this,
as I've heard some stories.... as well as the fact
that what "Sun Bear" taught is not authentic and
IMO was primarily a means to make money.
I told this woman that I'd even seen some NG reports
mentioning rape, and she wants proof. I said to find
police reports, you first have to find the victims.
I'm wondering if anyone here knows anything, anywhere
to start finding those women. I found some postings
made years ago in the archives on Google, but not
enough to convince a skeptic.
Below are her own words. I've cut down the length of
her email but didn't change the essence of it.
---------------------------------
I first met him ... back in the 80's, I found him
to be a quiet respectful man and so I read his books.
I liked what I read and so went to a number of his
Medicine Wheel Gatherings in NY, some I was there as
a volunteer.
I spoke to Sun Bear a number of times during those
gatherings and he was always the same, He kept his
distance with everyone, there was none of the
pushyness or arrogance or egotism that many people
in his position display. Yes money was charged, but
that included all food and somewhere to sleep as well
as workshops the full weekend. There was no charge
for sweats or the wheel. I do not believe anyone
made money from those gatherings except maybe the
land-owners. Many people were given free weekends
in exchange for a few hours volunteering. So anyone
could afford to come to them.
Every time I met up with him he was very modest
and even when he spoke he spoke quietly. He was a
very gentle man and there is no way I could ever
believe that he had tried to rape anyone. It would
have been totally against his spirit.
I have never in all my time in Indian Country heard
these sexual things about Sun Bear you mentioned.
He is called a plastic medicine man, as are many
Native people who teach. I know a lot of them and
they too are good people. That is something that
people will always say and I can accept people's
views but when it comes to saying about federal
offences and rape that crosses a line. He is not
here to defend himself and so people can say what
they like about him. But I knew him and I know that
what is said is rubbish.
If you check up you will see that his Tribe also
recognises him as someone who they say was famous,
there is no banishment from the Tribe as many people
say. I have been to many Tribal gatherings/Council
meetings in MN and SD and I know that it's very rare
to get many people coming to them unless there is
somthing in it for them. So for someone to say that
Sun Bear didn't come to meetings trying to show that
he wasn't a good Indian, then she should say that
about 95% of Tribal people.
I know personally a lot of the people who say bad
things about Sun Bear and others, but they have
their own secrets in the closet. Some are very
racist, some against woman, all of them against
anyone who is making a living teaching what they
know. The 'Lakota declaration of War' that came out
a number of years ago was a put up job by a few
radical Lakota. The meeting they called had about
12 people at it, most of those 12 were not for the
declaration.
the AIM members that I know, Dennis Banks, Clyde
Bellecourt and Vernon Bellecourt especially used to
be very radical as well, but they mellowed a lot.
Russel Means turned to acting and plays an Indian
and makes money thru that. What is the difference
between him and those teaching? Nothing except he
makes more money! If I told some of what I know
about some of these AIM people your hair will curl!
Sun Bear was an Anishnabe by blood, the Anishnabe
are the spiritual people of the Ojibwa people. The
true traditionals that I know, and I know many of
them, including Medicine people, have never said a
bad word about Sun Bear. They know that people have
to follow their path, and only the Creator can say
which path that is. If they are doing wrong it will
be the Creator who deals with it not them as they are
only people. I have never heard anything about sexual
misconduct when it comes to Sun Bear. Had this been
true I would have heard about it.
If you believe that these reports are true I would
like to see the police reports and court records. I
will not believe in internet gossip, only the legal
papers.
------------------------------
Help!
Weird Kid
"Pat" <spam.me.n...@fidnet.com> wrote in message
news:y7ednUOfh9j...@fidnet.com...
> Sun Bear was an Anishnabe by blood, the Anishnabe
> are the spiritual people of the Ojibwa people.
Huh? Okay, that sentence lost me. The Anishinabe are not "the spiritual
people of the Ojibway people." The Anishnabe ARE the Ojibway people--two
names for the name group. One is not a 'spiritual' subset of the other.
Your friend should abstain from using Sun Bear as educational materials, NOT
because of unfounded rape claims (and I am VERY nervous about that kind of
gossip), but because he's simply not representative of Ojibway traditions.
She should opt for more representative authors like Basil Johnston, or even
Vincent's daughter, who I think is remarkable and authentic as an Ojibway
cultural scholar.
> They know that people have
> to follow their path, and only the Creator can say
> which path that is.
Yeah, blah blah blah. Sorry, but this "follow your own path and only the
Creator can judge" is the commonest reaction to any criticisms of new-age
patronization of Indian traditions. Either this stuff should be called a
"personal path" and admitted to being contrived by that person, or it should
be AUTHENTIC to the group it claims to represent. But do not steal from
another culture, claim you are representing that culture, and then pull the
"personal path" line when you get criticized for it!
(The word "you" above is a generaql "you," not a specific response to the
author who earnestly asked for feedback about this situation)
Pat
news:MCYJc.8045$%p4.3038@okepread04...
>
> "Pat" <spam.me.n...@fidnet.com> wrote in message
> news:y7ednUOfh9j...@fidnet.com...
>
> > Sun Bear was an Anishnabe by blood, the Anishnabe
> > are the spiritual people of the Ojibwa people.
>
> people of the Ojibway people." The Anishnabe ARE the Ojibway people--two
> names for the name group. One is not a 'spiritual' subset of the other.
No doubt about it, the author is more than a little bit mixed up. As I
already told her, I'm part Anishinabe myself. Maybe she'll at least get that
part straight from now on.
> Your friend should abstain from using Sun Bear as educational materials,
NOT
> because of unfounded rape claims (and I am VERY nervous about that kind of
> gossip), but because he's simply not representative of Ojibway traditions.
I told her that, too. In fact what I wrote was "If J. wants to teach
children to respect land and life, does she really need to use Sun Bear's
name as a crutch? "This is what I know from reading books by this Indian
guy" is ludicrous.
> She should opt for more representative authors like Basil Johnston, or
even
> Vincent's daughter, who I think is remarkable and authentic as an Ojibway
> cultural scholar.
For sure. But, I think unless she finds a reason that *she* finds
compelling, she's determined to indoctrinate those kids with false ideas.
Particularly after getting such a glowing recommendation from her friend
(who was married to a "real Indian" for 7 years).
BravesHeart
& TWINKIE... HE WAS A RIPOFF ARTIST & A CON MAN...HE RIPPED OFF NDN CULTURE 4
HIS OWN GAIN... & YEAH HE GOT IN WOMENS PANTS AS PART OF HIS "SPIRITUAL
HEALING"....HES ALSO NOW DEAD...GOOD RIDDANCE...HE TOOK POOR FOLKS MONEY 4
BULLSHIT & WAS A EQUAL
OPORTUNITY SCAMMER...IF THERES
ANY GOD THEN SUN BEARS HANGIN SOMEWHERE BY HIS BALLS ABOVE A OJIBWE CAMPFIRE
B.H.
antoinette
indian shaman bow to me appropriating history is that he was the
father of Ms. Winona La Duke....the chickaroo who rode the 15 minutes
of fame wave with strange bird Nader as he assisted Bush's
takeover...and now receives financing from Republicans for his
"campaign" efforts...hmm. dna is something to consider.
antoinette.
brave...@aol.comnotrash (BravesHeart) wrote in message news:<20040716230023...@mb-m29.aol.com>...
Flint Carrier
yer problem is GENETICS...it's in yer genes...
no escaping dat!!!
antoine...@yahoo.com (antoinette) wrote in message news:<1a45ef0.04072...@posting.google.com>...
RedBear
> of fame wave with strange bird Nader
>
Pretty insulting of you antoinette. Winona was well known BEFORE she
joined Nader on that ticket. She has many books published and is a
hell of a good writer. She started programs that directly benefit her
people. And you come off as just catty and jealous.
Smokinghawk
to. Her work is very well-respected, and has been for many years.
"RedBear" <redb...@bigmailbox.net> wrote in message
news:9346c0de.04072...@posting.google.com...
antoinette
fine things for her people with the white earth projects.
she is friends with some people i am close to, as a matter of fact. i
made that post because the sun bear thing has been going around for
years.
and who knows what makes someone "good" or bad...it sure
isn't always their skin color...there are so many aspects
to all of us...yikes it seems my upsetness about laduke
not stepping down in the last election, even when asked by
Indian elder Wilma Mankiller, i guess that just still gets me goin.
i had expected more from her at that time. because she
has done so much for so many.
a.
redb...@bigmailbox.net (RedBear) wrote in message news:<9346c0de.04072...@posting.google.com>...
Jason
going on there, "Baby" IBI?
Nader had great taste in running mates then and now. Camejo is
outstanding in his own right, as is Ms. LaDuke, a Yale Law grad and
former leader in Greenpeace. Ms. LaDuke is presently working on a
wind energy project on the Anish' rez.
Ms. LaDuke never endorsed or supported the "Bear Tribe" outfit to my
best knowledge.
Here's a question for those who blame Nader for Bush being there: why
did Gore lose Tennessee, his home state? Another one: why didn't the
Democrats challege Florida voting on racial discrimination grounds?
antoine...@yahoo.com (antoinette) wrote in message news:<1a45ef0.04072...@posting.google.com>...
lisa dillon
Please! antoinette dosnt even breath the same air Ms Laduke calls home
letalone devote a lifetime Think! Indiginous Womans Network! Um,
sounds like antoinette IS anti Indiginous Woman! network'n and
otherwise? yah think?
LaDuke does not "ride anothers "15 mins!" antoinette? what's your
story? what's your dream? here? Really Now you cannot live and breath
the life and death of Anne Mae forever she diserves better than you!
to do that. To honor her memory her fight for life etc... do something
that reflects HER life and Her people, so far all these years here at
Alt Native, your posts are self grand and less on Native
Issues!....Lisa D....
RedBear
life. More than antoinette could ever dream of doing.
"Smokinghawk" <smoki...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<6gzLc.10182$%p4.3925@okepread04>...
tlagiloi
she's elderly.....and served as chief of the cno......big friggin difference
Monica Charles
Well said, Lisa.
Monica
RedBear
you think, antoinette. And you were still catty, snotty and rude.
Methinks I hear jealousy that Ms. LaDuke is so respected and you are,
well, you.
Smokinghawk
"chickaroo" to characterize that view?
"antoinette" <antoine...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1a45ef0.04072...@posting.google.com...
Smokinghawk
"Jason" <drumc...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:dafaf85e.0407...@posting.google.com...
> Ms. LaDuke never endorsed or supported the "Bear Tribe" outfit to my
> best knowledge.
Correct, she has not. She has no affiliation with anything of the sort, and
limits her references to her father in childhood memories of going to
political rallies with him.
tlagiloi
hayatva...@hotmail.com
And yes too much money was charged for sweatlodges. Which are by the way in the celtic and saami cultures and even as sauna´s in i believe all scandinavian cultures. Just as there is a medicinewheel there is a celtic stone circle wheel. The oldest pyramids have been found in Bosnia not so long ago. Huge ancient megaliths, remains of people of 10 feet tall in Sweden. Who presumes to know the real history and origins of their ancestor is a fool. And all this supremacy and racism against peoples of a different skincolor is wrong. Native tribes accuse others of stealing their traditions. While in their traditions are found remnants of much older sacred knowledge traditions. Even the veda´s are found in some places. Not wanting to share moreover seems to go against the very spirit of native tribes, their give aways etc. When traditions of others, like f.i. buddhist with their Mindfulnesstechniques help healing trauma or help bear unbearable pain with cancer, which spiritual person would not want to share that. Which creator would not want those who surrendered to him/her want people to do that. Many sacred scriptures are about advising people how to build communities, strengthen cohesion and cooperation, take care of each other. And yes there have been many wars and there still are. Holocausts, genocides, massacres and many other atrocities. Dronewars today. Natives did fight in some of those wars. Vietnam f.i. and most likely killed people overthere or at least were complicit in the 4 million and ongoing deaths because of agent orange overthere. Living in the Netherlands it is clear there have been other people living here, which then again disappeared. Like the Anaszazi disappeared and not for some magical reason, but as now is proven because the committed ecocide, left not one tree standing. Each one has a choice. Hatred or love. Growing towards the creator in sustainable connection with nature or spreading toxic hatred, which most likely will lead to more devastation. Words like we are going to be the majority are so like the words Hitler spoke about his pure Aryan race, forcing the most white women to produce babies in the Lebensborn project. So Sun Bear wherever you are, i hope you are good, away from all this toxic hatred, i only recently got to experience from natives in Canada. My heart knew you were there for good and not for the money. One person saving another person saves humanity is in sacred scriptures. Who then truely believes the creator granted them the right or the duty to keep anyone person from hearing that call from the creator?
jumpybird
i never understood this idea of workshops. i wasn't taught in workshops. i was taught by late night conversations, cups of coffee, a shared cigarette with someone who wanted to share something with me. it was personal. it was lovely. it was feeling that from generation to generation, i was being handed parts of a story to carry with me.
i am not Anishinabe, so i dont know their ways. but i did read some of this man's writings. i have seen some of the books. i kept one for a while because a friend told me i had to see it. i kept in on a shelf besides a lot of books that treat the subject of spirit in a better way. i was always concerned when anyone would be attracted to that book. any book that has chapters and quizzes in the back is something that does not represent what i learned.
just my opinion but i think that your friend needs to not use this to influence another generation of our children. better that they learn by the fire, or in a sweat, or with their mothers, aunts, dads and uncles, and family.
oh, and its once to see names on this tread i have not seen in a while. i had my own thing to do for a time.hope no one minds me being back.
jumpybird (now on decaf and ultra-lights)
