Thoughts on Anthropology

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David Bowden

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Dec 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/19/99
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As a part of my degree program I was required to take Anthropology.

Interesting experence going back to school, there I am, a man in his
forties surrounded by "kids" half my age.

Anyway this course consisted of the usual anthro approach to analysis
of "different" cultures in a "scientific" mannor.

I learned during the first class that additional required materals for
this course was a course pack that contained, and I kid you not, a
section labled " A Profile of A Primative Culture". Within this
section was contained "groups" such as the Navaho, the Ashanti of
Africa and the Arunta of Australia.
The material was at least 40 years old.

I knew at that point that I was in for a experence that would require
a great deal of "patience".

The instructor, a PHD attempting some sort of political correctness,
agreed with me that the materals within this coursepack was
eurocentric and racist but that it was required.

So I sat and during the course lectures would raies my hand and
interject attempts at historical revisions such as gee perhaps that
was caused by cultural adaptation due to genocide, or Kit Carson was a
genocidal murderer and in the like.
This went on for five months then it came time for the finals.

The finals consisted of five essay questions that she passed out four
weeks before the end of class.

One follows:

"Many of the Cultures we studied experienced significant changes due
to contact with Westerners ( European-American society). Discuss for
two or more groups some of these changes. How do you view these
changes- for better or worse, and why. You could use Anthropological
theories such as Diffusionism, Cultural Ecology or Political Economy
in your response."

I politely asked if it were possiable to expand on this topic, that I
had done some outside of class "studies" on this topic for some time
and could I draw on other materals outside of class.

"I am thrilled for you to do that" she stated.

Two weeks later I show up with my documentation materals in hand to
write my essay.
The instructor then stated " Select any two questions from the five
except number 2.

Guess which one was number 2.

A "outside class" meeting then occured between the instructor and
myself and an agreement was reached that I could answer number two.

I handed in my essay consisting of 30 pages of an exploration of
number 2 parameters all from "outside" materals.
The instructor looked at it and stated " I guess I have a book to
read".
I smiled and said thank you for your class.


Floyd Davidson

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Dec 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/19/99
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David Bowden <dbbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I handed in my essay consisting of 30 pages of an exploration
>of number 2 parameters all from "outside" materals. The
>instructor looked at it and stated " I guess I have a book to
>read".
>
>I smiled and said thank you for your class.

When all was said and done do you think your student, the
instructor, learned anything? Was the next class the intructor
held likely to be any better?

(And I take it your paper was fairly graded too, or you would
have mentioned it.)

Floyd


--
Floyd L. Davidson fl...@barrow.com
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)


Wicakpi

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Dec 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/21/99
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Floyd Davidson wrote in message
<83iqg...@enews1.newsguy.com>...
Oh yeah, ain't school wonerful? I took a class once too,
history of Oregon coast Indians. When the (white)
instructor learned that I attended Sundance, he was anxious
to go. He asked if he could take a camera. No, says I. He
asked if he could do this or that. No, says I. He then got
a real constipated look on his face and said he wasn't
going. "Too many rules for me," he says. Gee, it simply
dumbfounds me how a man supposedly so supportive of the
Indians in the HISTORY that he teaches, could be so
disrespectful of LIVING Native culture. This "gimmee,
gimmee" attitude is so dang pervasive, enit?
Wic

theg...@bigfoot.com

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Dec 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/21/99
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Allow me to comment if I may. I still can be amazed at the constant
barrage of
questions some people will get into your face with. Some people just
don't get it
that having the nerve to ask does not merit them an instant response.
That has taught
me to avoid certain conversations within certain mixed company. Thanks,
Jenn

Kalera

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Dec 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/22/99
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In other words, he wasn't interested in the experience, he was interested in
what he could "get" from the experience. This seems really common... it's even
a widespread expression, especially in academic and psychology fields. "So,
what did you take with you from this experience?"

In article <83o5ai$nog$1...@news.efn.org>, "Wicakpi" wrote:

>Oh yeah, ain't school wonerful? I took a class once too,
>history of Oregon coast Indians. When the (white)
>instructor learned that I attended Sundance, he was anxious
>to go. He asked if he could take a camera. No, says I. He
>asked if he could do this or that. No, says I. He then got
>a real constipated look on his face and said he wasn't
>going. "Too many rules for me," he says. Gee, it simply
>dumbfounds me how a man supposedly so supportive of the
>Indians in the HISTORY that he teaches, could be so
>disrespectful of LIVING Native culture. This "gimmee,
>gimmee" attitude is so dang pervasive, enit?
>Wic

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam
(October 9, 1999) and wife to Chris, the bestest husband in the whole wide
world who lets me post from his account 'cause mine's broke.

Kalera

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Dec 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/22/99
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Likewise. I've found that it's often wise to be very reticent about anything
indian-related in front of non-indians until I've established a friendship good
enough to where they won't turn into "eager disciples".

I've had some friends comment "Oh, I thought you weren't into being indian" as
if it were a hobby or something, when after knowing them a few years I say
something about a powwow or something.

Not talking about it also helps avoid pissing contests with people who like to
think they "know a lot" about indians. Of course, the downside is that silence
helps the misinformation and ignorance perpetuate, but one thing at a time,
y'know?

>Allow me to comment if I may. I still can be amazed at the constant
>barrage of
>questions some people will get into your face with. Some people just
>don't get it
>that having the nerve to ask does not merit them an instant response.
>That has taught
>me to avoid certain conversations within certain mixed company. Thanks,
>Jenn

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

AI...@aol.com

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Dec 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/23/99
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In article <83o5ai$nog$1...@news.efn.org>,

"Wicakpi" <dd...@efn.org> wrote:> >
> Oh yeah, ain't school wonerful? I took a class once too,> history of
Oregon coast Indians. When the (white)> instructor learned that I
attended Sundance, he was anxious> to go. He asked if he could take a
camera. No, says I. He > asked if he could do this or that. No, says
I. He then got> a real constipated look on his face and said he wasn't
> going. "Too many rules for me," he says. Gee, it simply> dumbfounds
me how a man supposedly so supportive of the> Indians in the HISTORY
that he teaches, could be so> disrespectful of LIVING Native culture.
This "gimmee,> gimmee" attitude is so dang pervasive, enit?
> Wic

Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave robbers with a
degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense. At an NCAI meeting there
was a vacancy made known on the National Historic Preservation Board.
Some AIM guys were there and Ted Means proposed that Pete Catches be
given the seat. The vacancy was open for an "expert (drip under
pressure) on Plains Indians". The NHPB reps said no Pete Catches
wouldn't do because he didn't have a degree in Plains Indians. Ted and
other AIMsters replied it was lunacy to expect a person to have a
degree in themselves, but thats where Anthropology is at. Ruth Hill's
book Hanta Yo! was a farce but she claimed it was the definitive work
on the Lakota even after several Lakota Tribes sued her. She claimed
then that she knew more about the Lakota than the Lakota themselves.
Thats an anthro.

Sheridan Murphy

--
AIM is then the new warrior class of this century,
bound by the bonds of the drum, Pipe, Cedar;who
vote with their bodies instead of their mouths.
Their methods are strong. their message is hope


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Floyd Davidson

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Dec 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/23/99
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<AI...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave robbers with a
>degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense.

What's an anthropoligist? It's a thing kinda like an Indian
dog. It hangs around the porch looking for something to eat,
and most of them can be house broken by about the 6th week or
so. They are easy to maintain, most don't smell too bad, and
will keep the kids occupied and the old folks happy too.

However there are significant differences. A dog, if you feed
it a few times, will be your friend forever, come Hell or high
water... and will never bite the hand that feeds it.

Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
scraps.

AI...@aol.com

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Dec 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/23/99
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In article <83tek...@enews1.newsguy.com>,
fl...@ptialaska.net wrote:
>
:

> > Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
> the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
> scraps.

That was very good, well done rofl.

Carter

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Dec 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/23/99
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Hey Floyd,
Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC

Floyd Davidson wrote:
>
> <AI...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave robbers with a
> >degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense.
>
> What's an anthropoligist? It's a thing kinda like an Indian
> dog. It hangs around the porch looking for something to eat,
> and most of them can be house broken by about the 6th week or
> so. They are easy to maintain, most don't smell too bad, and
> will keep the kids occupied and the old folks happy too.
>
> However there are significant differences. A dog, if you feed
> it a few times, will be your friend forever, come Hell or high
> water... and will never bite the hand that feeds it.
>
> Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
> the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
> scraps.
>

Floyd Davidson

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Carter <cc...@poncacity.net> wrote:
>Hey Floyd,
> Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
>their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC

Will a dog even eat one???

Floyd

Erik A. Mattila

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Carter wrote:

> Hey Floyd,
> Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
> their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC

Typical Oklahoma logic. Years ago Paul Rogers was telling me about what
they did when loud-mouthed drunks came to the Stomp Dances at Stokes
Smith's. He said first they would tie them up to a tree, but later they
thought this was disrespectful to the tree. So then they just hog-tied
them and threw them on the ground - and, you guessed it, that was
disrepectful to the earth. The final solution was to throw them in the
bed of a pick-up truck and haul them into Vian and turn them over to the
Sherrif. Nobody seemed to worry about the respect thing then, for some
strange reason.

But there's another side to the anthropology coin. While my friend from
Pit River Nation, Darryl Wilson, was getting his BA degree, he wrote a
story that was published in News for Native California. A 90 year old
retired school teacher in Carson City, Nevada read it, and contacted
Darryl and offered to turn over all her field work notes to him. She was
Susan Parks, a former student of Alfred Krober's in the 1920s and 30s.
All her work was done among the Pit River people (Ajomawi/Astsugiwi) in
those days. What she handed Darryl was a treasure trove - no more or no
lesss. Many of the stories and traditions and recountings were very
familiar to Darryl, since the people interviewed were his relatives and he
had heard these things as a child -- but the notes also compensated for
things forgotten, maybe passed on to him second hand and a little
different from the way the person who first spoke the tale would have
said, and all that.

But Darryl told me someting interesting when he was first digesting
Susan's field notes. He also had a few papers that Susan Parks wrote. He
had some of the notes on one pile on his kitchen table, and the papers on
the other, and he said "It's amazing - what's in here.." waving his hand
over the papers, "is exactly the least important things that are in here,"
waving his hand over the notes.

Krober taught his students to be very skillfull at fieldwork. There were
all sorts of disciplines involved, largely centered around the idea of
being an unbiased observer, as much as possible, and not interpret the
information that you recorded in field work. Interpretation came later,
when a scholastic paper was being constructed for the purpose of
publication and peer review. This is were the beef starts, I think. Like
the Yuroks - they really hate Krober because he described Yurok culture as
'anal retentive' and naturally the Yuroks thought he was saying that they
were assholes. I'm exaggerting a bit (for the sake of humor, of course,
even though it is true), but there's no way a tribal member is going to
feel good about how one's community is "interpreted" for academic
consumption.

On the other hand, here's something to consider. Susan Parks passed away
about a year after she turned her papers over to Darryl. For many years
she thought that she would like to return this knowledge to the Pit River
people, and it came to pass. But she never did pursue a career in
Anthropology. In her generation, it was very rare for a woman to ever
find an appointement in a University (the same 'closed door' that Angie
Debo experienced in Oklahoma.) So she simply had a career as a school
teacher. So I got wondering about how many collections of field notes
there are laying around the country - in the attics of the families of
deceased anthro students who never became college professors or
published. What a wealth of knowledge there could be, just lying around,
rotting.

You never know what's out there. About 12 years ago a lady who lived in
Woodland, California telephoned a faculty member in NAS at UC Davis and
said that she had some old family papers that had a lot of stuff about
Indians in them. The faculty referred her to a person who had a PhD in
history who was not associated with UC, but was in the area and might be
interested. This person was in fact interested. He took the papers on
the promise that he would review them to see if they were valuable. These
in fact were the "Morgan Papers" which turned out to be the memoirs of
George Washington's first Secretary of War, a man by the name of Morgan.
The lady never saw them again - the guy who got them went on to use them
to advance his career.

Erik Mattila

Laktajew

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Floyd Davidson wrote :

>Carter <cc...@poncacity.net> wrote:
>>Hey Floyd,
>> Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
>>their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC
>

>Will a dog even eat one???

Heck Floyd , my crazy dog most likely would , he ate a lawer one afternoon and
spent the next week licking his butt to get the bad taste out of his mouth.
Kenn

rkla...@ptialaska.net

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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This is true for some. We have several Anthropologists in this area,
but many of them are anthropologists who are Tlingit. Some
anthropologists are good folks who do a lot of good. Some aren't. I
don't think it's the "anthropologist" but the person behind the degree.
After all, in each village or community, there are those who you either
except as @$%^ or you stay away from them! : )
Robin

Carter

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Erik, you make some cute points about anthros but what was the crack
about 'typical oklahoma thinking'? And what did you mean after the
drunks story by 'no one thought of the respect thing then'? That we (or
me) have disrespected anthros or that Creeks have no respect? Just
curious about what you meant. Carter
Erik A. Mattila wrote:

>
> Carter wrote:
>
> > Hey Floyd,
> > Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
> > their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC
>

Carter

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Wait Now! Anthro jokes in NDN country are like lawyer jokes in the rest
of the country. Lighten up. Some of our worst friends are anthros. get
it? CC

Wicakpi

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
to

AI...@aol.com wrote in message
<83tapd$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...

>In article <83o5ai$nog$1...@news.efn.org>,
> "Wicakpi" <dd...@efn.org> wrote:> >
>> Oh yeah, ain't school wonerful? I took a class once
too,> history of
>Oregon coast Indians. When the (white)> instructor learned
that I
>attended Sundance, he was anxious> to go. He asked if he
could take a
>camera. No, says I. He > asked if he could do this or
that. No, says
>I. He then got> a real constipated look on his face and
said he wasn't
>> going. "Too many rules for me," he says. Gee, it
simply> dumbfounds
>me how a man supposedly so supportive of the> Indians in
the HISTORY
>that he teaches, could be so> disrespectful of LIVING
Native culture.
>This "gimmee,> gimmee" attitude is so dang pervasive, enit?
>> Wic
>
> Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave robbers
with a
>degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense. At an NCAI
meeting there
>was a vacancy made known on the National Historic
Preservation Board.
>Some AIM guys were there and Ted Means proposed that Pete
Catches be
>given the seat. The vacancy was open for an "expert (drip
under
>pressure) on Plains Indians". The NHPB reps said no Pete
Catches
>wouldn't do because he didn't have a degree in Plains
Indians. Ted and
>other AIMsters replied it was lunacy to expect a person to
have a
>degree in themselves, but thats where Anthropology is at.
Ruth Hill's
>book Hanta Yo! was a farce but she claimed it was the
definitive work
>on the Lakota even after several Lakota Tribes sued her.
She claimed
>then that she knew more about the Lakota than the Lakota
themselves.
>Thats an anthro.
>
>Sheridan Murphy
>


Your story sure made me laugh. Thanks for sharing this
prime example of non-Indian arrogance. Yep... You sure hit
the ol' proverbial nail on the head. Seems everyone else
(especially those with degrees) know more about us than we
know about ourselves. The greatest b.s. story of all time
is the "migration through the strait" theory, enit? We just
keep tellin' 'em and tellin' 'em... but they won't listen.
For now, anyway. Someday they'll accidentally make the
"discovery" that what we've been tellin' 'em all along is
TRUE. Wonder what they'll say then?
Wic

Wicakpi

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Laktajew wrote in message
<19991224090245...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
>Floyd Davidson wrote :

>
>>Carter <cc...@poncacity.net> wrote:
>>>Hey Floyd,
>>> Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that
feeds anthros to
>>>their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC
>>
>>Will a dog even eat one???
>
> Heck Floyd , my crazy dog most likely would , he ate a
lawer one afternoon and
>spent the next week licking his butt to get the bad taste
out of his mouth.
> Kenn

As kids, we had a fiesty little dog that favored locking his
jaws onto the butt cheeks of local cops. You know, that dog
sure could read sign language.
Wic

Wicakpi

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
to
Hee hee Some of those anthro jokes are pretty dang funny
too! Aww jeez... don't get me started....
Wic

Carter wrote in message <386456...@poncacity.net>...


>Wait Now! Anthro jokes in NDN country are like lawyer jokes
in the rest
>of the country. Lighten up. Some of our worst friends are
anthros. get
>it? CC
>rkla...@ptialaska.net wrote:
>>
>> This is true for some. We have several Anthropologists
in this area,
>> but many of them are anthropologists who are Tlingit.
Some
>> anthropologists are good folks who do a lot of good.
Some aren't. I
>> don't think it's the "anthropologist" but the person
behind the degree.
>> After all, in each village or community, there are those
who you either
>> except as @$%^ or you stay away from them! : )
>> Robin
>>
>> Floyd Davidson wrote:
>>
>> > <AI...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > >

>> > > Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave
robbers with a
>> > >degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense.
>> >

Erik A. Mattila

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Carter wrote:

> Erik, you make some cute points about anthros but what was the crack
> about 'typical oklahoma thinking'? And what did you mean after the
> drunks story by 'no one thought of the respect thing then'? That we (or
> me) have disrespected anthros or that Creeks have no respect? Just
> curious about what you meant. Carter

Nothing disrespectful meant here, Carter, I'm innocent (except maybe for some
bad writing).

When you said 'cruel to the dogs' it reminded me of the story about the
Cherokee's concern for the trees and the earth (which I heard in Oklahoma -
thus "Oklahoma logic.") The rest of the story is that they weren't worried
about whether they respected the Sherriff or not.

But you know, some people just can't tell a joke. (meaning me -- not anyone
else -- sheeh, now I'm worrying about being misunderstood)

Erik


Floyd Davidson

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
<cc...@poncacity.net> wrote:
>Wait Now! Anthro jokes in NDN country are like lawyer jokes in
>the rest of the country. Lighten up. Some of our worst friends
>are anthros. get it? CC

Yeah! yeah! Some of my best friends are... lawyers???

Actually, to be honest I rather enjoy lawyers compared to
anthros. And I do know a few anthros that I like too.
Linguists are actually anthropologists, and every linguist I
ever met who studies Native languages was a first class person.
It happens that my favorite web page to cite on this group is an
essay by an anthropologists (the fact that he is also a very
traditional Yup'ik elder is probably more important though).

But I'm reminded of how the 1970 (I think that was the one)
census in Alaska went. The average Eskimo family was made up of
1 mother, 1 father, 3.4 aunts, 2.7 uncles, 3.3 grandparents, 2.4
children, 5.6 sleddogs, and 1.3 anthropologists.

Perhaps the by 2010 census that will have changed, and be 1.3
lawyers instead of anthropologists. Wouldn't that be great!

And I sure hope Erik doesn't call this Oklahoma thinking,
typical or otherwise. Sheesh, I don't want to feel insulted,
you know.

Floyd

Wayne George

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Hello Erik A. Mattila,
After reading some of you posts here on alt.native....I have to let you know I
like the way in which you speak. I'd like also to pass on an observation of mine.
Seems some people from "Oklahoma" are a bit sensitive to a huge amount of
stuff.....do you know why?

Mi'gwetch
Wayne George, Anishinabe artist from Aazhoodena Territory.............
~~~~


"Erik A. Mattila" wrote:

Carter

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Ah-ho Erik,
I hear you my friend, merry...er' 'feliz navidad'. Did I spell that
wrong? Also did you get my email about Lance? Carter

Carter

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Screw you george you can't get a rise out of me today. Carter, 'the
smiling Ponca"

Wayne George wrote:
>
> Hello Erik A. Mattila,
> After reading some of you posts here on alt.native....I have to let you know I
> like the way in which you speak. I'd like also to pass on an observation of mine.
> Seems some people from "Oklahoma" are a bit sensitive to a huge amount of
> stuff.....do you know why?
>
> Mi'gwetch
> Wayne George, Anishinabe artist from Aazhoodena Territory.............
> ~~~~
>

John W. Hart

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
If a dog eats one, it (the dog) probably won't survive.
John

"Floyd Davidson" <fl...@ptialaska.net> wrote in message
news:83uo2...@enews1.newsguy.com...


> Carter <cc...@poncacity.net> wrote:
> >Hey Floyd,
> > Is there any scientific name for an NDN society that feeds anthros to
> >their dogs? Or would that be cruel to dogs? CC
>
> Will a dog even eat one???
>

> Floyd

Erik A. Mattila

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Wayne George wrote:

> Hello Erik A. Mattila,
> After reading some of you posts here on alt.native....I have to let you know I
> like the way in which you speak. I'd like also to pass on an observation of mine.
> Seems some people from "Oklahoma" are a bit sensitive to a huge amount of
> stuff.....do you know why?
>
> Mi'gwetch
> Wayne George, Anishinabe artist from Aazhoodena Territory.............
> ~~~~

Hi Wayne,

I could only guess why. My Mom's family was originally from Gatlinburg, TN, but
they moved to IT just before statehood, so I have a lot of relations in Oklahoma.
Out here in California there's a lot of folk legends about Oklahoma, like a sign
that was supposed to have appeared on a dock in Los Angeles harbour during WWII -
"We took California without losing a man, now let's take Japan." (referring to the
Dust Bowl days). So "Okie" has had quite a negative connotation here.

The first time I landed in Oklahoma in 1971 I was expecting the worse - a lot of
violent rednecks, kkk mentality, you know, all the stereotypes that I had heard all
my life. It wasn't like that at all. I found a lot of really nice people - White,
Indian, African - across the board. Friendly, interesting, and generous. Plus it
is a very beautiful place. I had never seen a firefly before.

I went out in the woods to cut some firewood for an old woman in Claremore, however,
and it was the first time I had ever seen a Honey Locust or Wild Persimmon. But I
also discovered chiggers, no such beast out here in the west. But this is what
really upset me about Oklahoma. Everyone I talked to could tell me all sorts of
ancient wisdom about not getting chiggers in the first place, but no one could tell
he how to get rid of them. So I had to wear them all the way back to California.

And another thing, we don't have turtles wandering around the roads in California -
that was pretty kool to see.

Feliz Navidad,
Erik


Wayne George

unread,
Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Hi , Garter,
You are in my prayers.
Your friend
Wayne George. Anishinabe "Indian"
~~~~

Carter wrote:

> Screw you george you can't get a rise out of me today. Carter, 'the
> smiling Ponca"

> Wayne George wrote:
> >
> > Hello Erik A. Mattila,
> > After reading some of you posts here on alt.native....I have to let you know I
> > like the way in which you speak. I'd like also to pass on an observation of mine.
> > Seems some people from "Oklahoma" are a bit sensitive to a huge amount of
> > stuff.....do you know why?
> >
> > Mi'gwetch
> > Wayne George, Anishinabe artist from Aazhoodena Territory.............
> > ~~~~
> >

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
Floyd Davidson wrote:

> Perhaps the by 2010 census that will have changed, and be 1.3
> lawyers instead of anthropologists. Wouldn't that be great!
>
> And I sure hope Erik doesn't call this Oklahoma thinking,
> typical or otherwise. Sheesh, I don't want to feel insulted,
> you know.
>
> Floyd

I can see I'm going to have trouble living that one down - me and my big
e-mouth. But as I told Carter, the "Oklahoma logic" wasn't about anthros at
all - but whether dogs, trees, earth etc. deserved our respect, and the local
Sherrif doesn't.

But maybe anthros do. But now things have changed quite a bit (since the
golden age of anthropology and the wholesale misinterpretation of culture).
Now anthros are retained to write the cultural component of Environmental
Impact Statements, and to the most part, they will uphold the idea of sacred
sites and other things that are valuable to Indian communities. So it may be
a 'baby and bathwater' argument.

In 1982 or so, for example, Pacific Gas & Electric had applied for a federal
license to harness the Battle Creek watershed just east of Red Bluff,
California. When the EIR was being made, a small team of anthropologists had
cleverly located Auntie Grace (Grace Martinez) in the small town of Gerber,
who was known to be a member of Ishi's tribe, the Yana. They took her out to
the Battle Creek and asked her to identify the old sacred areas, but Auntie
just crossed her arms and told them "Well, you're going to have to go down to
Berkeley and ask that Kroeber fellow. According to him, I am extinct!"

My experience has been pretty positive. But I've only used anthropologists
for legal purposes, like soliciting testimony for a court case about a land
claim or fishing or hunting right. The problem has always been that the law
is fueld by documents -- and the Indian's testimony in a court is always
weaker than a piece of paper -- it's just the nature of the law (that was the
'genius' of Rome in European history. The Romans addicted the entire
European continent to paperwork.) We can argue the merits, righteousness and
beauty of the oral tradition as much as we want, but it won't hold up in
court in light of weight of paperwork as evidence. It's kind of crazy,
really. In California, for example, Indian's will still lose in court
because their great grandfathers did not travel all the way to San Diego
between 1852 and 1854 and register their claim which would have been
legitimate under Spanish law. The only documents that have upheld the
Indian's interests have in fact been anthropological documents. The Court of
Claims in 1937 in fact paid for some of the best ethnographic survey work
ever done, and came out of it with an understanding of who 'owned' what that
was both accurate and fair insofar as the Indian's interest was concerned.

But I agree that lawyers need to be included as the victims of Indian humor.
Yes, indeed. If you want to read the history of treachery and betrayal
behind the Buckskin Curtain, this is the place to go -- and it continues
unchecked, especially now with gaming money up for grabs and all that. Whew!

Erik


Floyd Davidson

unread,
Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>Floyd Davidson wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the by 2010 census that will have changed, and be 1.3
>> lawyers instead of anthropologists. Wouldn't that be great!
>>
>> And I sure hope Erik doesn't call this Oklahoma thinking,
>> typical or otherwise. Sheesh, I don't want to feel insulted,
>> you know.
>>
>> Floyd
>
>I can see I'm going to have trouble living that one down - me
>and my big e-mouth. But as I told Carter, the "Oklahoma logic"
>wasn't about anthros at all - but whether dogs, trees, earth
>etc. deserved our respect, and the local Sherrif doesn't.

Wellll... here in Alaska we had an experience a couple decades
back that taught us all about Okies. They live next to Texans.
And there is, reputedly, only one kind of good Texan. That
being one who is headed for home with an Okie under each arm.
(Or maybe that was an Okie with a couple Texans in tow; but it
makes no real difference. :-)

Just note that we only got to meet typical non-Native Okies and
Texans though, so Carter is not in the same league.

>But maybe anthros do. But now things have changed quite a bit
>(since the golden age of anthropology and the wholesale
>misinterpretation of culture).

There is a large component of truth to that. I suspect that
Carter is like I am, having gained my impression of what an
"anthro" is back in the 60's and 70's. Those stereotypes are
hard to lose, and that is especially true when it comes to
telling yarns and making jokes. You keep trying to be more
serious than not...

>... located Auntie Grace (Grace Martinez) in the small town of


>Gerber, who was known to be a member of Ishi's tribe, the Yana.
>They took her out to the Battle Creek and asked her to identify
>the old sacred areas, but Auntie just crossed her arms and told
>them "Well, you're going to have to go down to Berkeley and ask
>that Kroeber fellow. According to him, I am extinct!"

Typical!

I've related in this group several times that virtually nothing
written by an anthropologist about Eskimo culture prior to
roughly 1970 should be trusted. For 200 years Western observers
claimed that Eskimos were "primitive" and had no formal system
of government. And that was the standard fare for
anthropologists right up until the Yupiit Nation decided that
Western schools were robbing them of the ability to teach their
children about their government, so they sought out a "good"
anthropologist and sat her down to write it up in Western
academic terms. That non-existent government is so slick that
in 200 years Westerners couldn't even tell it existed, much less
how well it worked. Ann Fienup-Riordan was the lady they hired.
She is just about the only truly respectable non-Native
anthropologist who studies Eskimo culture.

>... In California, for example, Indian's will still lose in


>court because their great grandfathers did not travel all the
>way to San Diego between 1852 and 1854 and register their claim
>which would have been legitimate under Spanish law. The only
>documents that have upheld the Indian's interests have in fact
>been anthropological documents. The Court of Claims in 1937 in
>fact paid for some of the best ethnographic survey work ever
>done, and came out of it with an understanding of who 'owned'
>what that was both accurate and fair insofar as the Indian's
>interest was concerned.

Just another deceitful means of removing land from Native
owners. It ignores the obvious fact that not one European ever
legally owned a single square inch of North America unless it
was properly agreed to by the Native owners. There are some
instances where that is in fact documented, but of course the
majority of land today is illegally "owned" by people who have
no right to it.

A similar legal stunt was pulled off here in Alaska after the
Treaty of Purchase in 1967. The Russians, unlike other
Europeans, had actually purchased whatever land they owned. (The
difficulty in doing so was one reason they chose to sell their
interest in Russian America to the US though.) After the US
purchase of governance and trading rights, there was no legal
way for any non-Native to purchase or own land in Alaska! That
caused all kinds of turmoil, but basically remained a fact of
life until the discovery of gold. As usual, greed finds a
way...

The missionary Sheldon Jackson had lobbied Congress to pass the
Alaska Organic Act of 1884, which finally (in their view) set up
processes by which non-Natives could own land and do business in
Alaska. One effect was to extend the 1872 Mining Act to cover
the Territory of Alaska. And said Mining Act stipulated that
"citizens of the Unites States and those who have declared their
intention to become such" (meaning newly arrived immigrants from
other countries also qualified) are allowed to file mining
claims. Indians and Eskimos, not being citizens nor being said
immigrants, could not file mining claims. (They were also not
allowed to vote in local elections.)

Hence while it is a legal fact (which the US Supreme Court
eventually upheld) that Native people owned every square inch of
Alaska and every mineral deposit that existed, not one Native
was allowed to personally take possession of any of it until
relatively recent times.

>But I agree that lawyers need to be included as the victims of
>Indian humor. Yes, indeed. If you want to read the history of
>treachery and betrayal behind the Buckskin Curtain, this is the
>place to go -- and it continues unchecked, especially now with
>gaming money up for grabs and all that. Whew!

The problem is that there have not been enough Natives going to
law school. Today thanks mostly to the two decades long history
of the University of New Mexico Law School's American Indian Law
Center, under Director Philip "Sam" Deloria, there are a
number of Indian Law programs competitively seeking Native
students. (UNM Law School students are something like a 45%
minority.)

The way to enforce Treaties and existing laws is to go to court
with a lawyer that understands and has a genuine desire to win
the case.

I see a bright future for Indian Lawyer jokes among non-Natives!

David Fire

unread,
Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
to

Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote in message
news:386511A...@tomatoweb.com...

>But I
> also discovered chiggers, no such beast out here in the west. But this is
what
> really upset me about Oklahoma. Everyone I talked to could tell me all
sorts of
> ancient wisdom about not getting chiggers in the first place, but no one
could tell
> he how to get rid of them. So I had to wear them all the way back to
California.


Could not resist. Add cap full of bleach to bath water and bath
normally. That does
the trick. Old southern trick.

Dave

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
Very interesting material about Alaska, Floyd. Just a few comments...

Floyd Davidson wrote:

> I've related in this group several times that virtually nothing
> written by an anthropologist about Eskimo culture prior to
> roughly 1970 should be trusted. For 200 years Western observers
> claimed that Eskimos were "primitive" and had no formal system
> of government. And that was the standard fare for
> anthropologists right up until the Yupiit Nation decided that
> Western schools were robbing them of the ability to teach their
> children about their government, so they sought out a "good"
> anthropologist and sat her down to write it up in Western
> academic terms. That non-existent government is so slick that
> in 200 years Westerners couldn't even tell it existed, much less
> how well it worked. Ann Fienup-Riordan was the lady they hired.
> She is just about the only truly respectable non-Native
> anthropologist who studies Eskimo culture.

It has always been interesting to me to talk to old-timers who thought
the Euroamerican idea of government was repugnant. But it's one of
those things that is 'so close to home' that is seems completely
natural, common sense, so Euroamerican's can't imagine it any other
way. So it stands to reason that they might see an Indian government as
'informal' or even non-existant. But the anthropologists are supposed
to know better, being students of culture and all that. It often didn't
work out that way. The problem always was the difficulty, or
impossibility, of translating culture itself across the cultural
frontiers, in order to make it intelligible to members of another
culture. So you can sit around with your own people and talk about
government and be perfectly understood, but say the same words in a
college classroom full of foreigners and nobody will know what you're
talking about.

> Just another deceitful means of removing land from Native
> owners. It ignores the obvious fact that not one European ever
> legally owned a single square inch of North America unless it
> was properly agreed to by the Native owners. There are some
> instances where that is in fact documented, but of course the
> majority of land today is illegally "owned" by people who have
> no right to it.

Yes, but the concept of a 'right' or a 'legal right' is meaningless
without the power of the state to back the claimant's exercise of that
right. At least in a law dictionary. That's what always pissed me off
in land claims cases -- when the whole basis of what was being contested
was wrong -- yet within the scope of the powers of the court that
'wrongness' couldn't be addressed. This is especially true in Indian
law, since the statutes are almost nothing better than philosophical
musings - it is primarily case law. So a bad decision made in 1922 will
affect everything today -- and there's no mechanism in US Law that will
allow you to go back to the 1922 case and argue its merits or lack of
merits. I mean think about it. The whole doctrine of the "Rights of
Discovery" was based on an English metaphysical assumption that God
favored agricultural people over "the hunters and beasts of the woods."
If that's not arrogant enought for you, consider also that the material
culture of the Eastern tribes at the time of contact was about on par
with the material culture of rural England -- including the level of
agriculture as the significant part of the economy. But no court today
will allow you to go back and question Chief Justice Marshall's decision
on that basis - that he was simply misinformed and therefore his legal
findings were invalid.

> Hence while it is a legal fact (which the US Supreme Court
> eventually upheld) that Native people owned every square inch of
> Alaska and every mineral deposit that existed, not one Native
> was allowed to personally take possession of any of it until
> relatively recent times.

That's pretty interesting. I heard Willie Hensley speak to a group of
Pit River Indians in California just after the settlement, which he
claimed to have helped engineer. The Pit River Council Chairman told
Mr. Hensley that he was confused -- Hensley said that the natives had
won 1 tenth of Alaska, and the Chairman said no, you gave away 9 tenths
to someone who had no real (legal) claim. (a little bit of
one-upsmanship going on here). But what do you think about that idea?

> The problem is that there have not been enough Natives going to
> law school. Today thanks mostly to the two decades long history
> of the University of New Mexico Law School's American Indian Law
> Center, under Director Philip "Sam" Deloria, there are a
> number of Indian Law programs competitively seeking Native
> students. (UNM Law School students are something like a 45%
> minority.)

I knew one native law student that couldn't pass the bar because he
couldn't pass the bar. Seriously, he would get so tied up in knots
about the State Bar exam, that he would stop-off for a few before
showing up. One year he was late, and not allowed to take the test, and
another year he just failed it because the whiskey got to him.

But you're right, Native lawyers would be good. I've known a few who
weren't however, but for different reasons than a rotten non-indian
attorney. Mostly because of playing up to a tribal internal faction, or
special interest. But even a Native lawyer has to deal with the
incredible stupidity of US Indian law. I guess I got completely
disenchanted with the law when it finally got through my thicks skull
that Congress was only empowered to compensate for stolen land, and
restoration or replacement had to come through an Executive act, such as
Nixon's concessions (and isn't it ironic, all things considered, that
Nixon was the only US President that used Executive powers on the behalf
of Indians on such a broad scale -- returning land to the Yakima and
Havasupai, reversing the Menominie termination, returning the Blue Lake
to the Tewa --?)

Now how many Indians are there who are contemplating careers as
lobbyists?

> The way to enforce Treaties and existing laws is to go to court
> with a lawyer that understands and has a genuine desire to win
> the case.
>
> I see a bright future for Indian Lawyer jokes among non-Natives!

Hmmm, I see some possibilites there...

I have one good joke on a non-indian lawyer, however. The Pit River
council chair and I were showing one around the country, and we took him
to a very beautiful waterfall on Roaring Creek. It was still Spring, so
the water was pure snow-melt. He asked if it was good swimming in the
pool beneath the falls, and we said "Sure." We took off our clothes and
dived in, just like that, and it was so cold it made us ache and turn
blue - but we acted like it was perfect swimming temperature. So he
took off his clothes and jumped in ... I can still hear his blood
curdling scream when he hit the water....

Erik Mattila


Kalera

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Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
Thanks, Floyd, I really needed the giggle!

>What's an anthropoligist? It's a thing kinda like an Indian
>dog. It hangs around the porch looking for something to eat,
>and most of them can be house broken by about the 6th week or
>so. They are easy to maintain, most don't smell too bad, and
>will keep the kids occupied and the old folks happy too.
>
>However there are significant differences. A dog, if you feed
>it a few times, will be your friend forever, come Hell or high
>water... and will never bite the hand that feeds it.
>
>Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
>the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
>scraps.
>
> Floyd

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam
(October 9, 1999) and wife to Chris, the bestest husband in the whole wide
world who lets me post from his account 'cause mine's broke.

Floyd Davidson

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>Floyd Davidson wrote:
>> I've related in this group several times that virtually
>> nothing written by an anthropologist about Eskimo culture
>> prior to roughly 1970 should be trusted. For 200 years
>> Western observers claimed that Eskimos were "primitive" and
>> had no formal system of government. And that was the
>> standard fare for
[snip]

>It has always been interesting to me to talk to old-timers who
>thought the Euroamerican idea of government was repugnant.

Boy, does it _annoy_ a lot of people when they hear that! :-)

>But it's one of those things that is 'so close to home' that is
>seems completely natural, common sense, so Euroamerican's can't
>imagine it any other way.

Right there is the key to why they couldn't see a government.
It had to be one with a single person in total authority. They
were, from the first Russian right up to last anthro, looking
for the same noise, heat, light and sound that comes from their
own government (the din that is generated every year by the
Alaska Legislature leaves them no doubt that we are "governed").
A quiet government that didn't produce heated battles and dead
bodies wasn't something they could even detect.

>> Hence while it is a legal fact (which the US Supreme Court
>> eventually upheld) that Native people owned every square inch
>> of Alaska and every mineral deposit that existed, not one
>> Native was allowed to personally take possession of any of it
>> until relatively recent times.
>
>That's pretty interesting. I heard Willie Hensley speak to a
>group of Pit River Indians in California just after the
>settlement, which he claimed to have helped engineer. The Pit
>River Council Chairman told Mr. Hensley that he was confused --
>Hensley said that the natives had won 1 tenth of Alaska, and
>the Chairman said no, you gave away 9 tenths to someone who had
>no real (legal) claim. (a little bit of one-upsmanship going
>on here). But what do you think about that idea?

Willie Hensley had more than just a small role... a lot more.
I met a fellow some years ago who told me how a group of former
school buddies had been visiting his home, and of course were
talking politics, when somebody suggested they should form an
organization much like that little group, a federation of all
Alaska Natives... And so they did. The Alaska Federation of
Natives (AFN) was born. Willie Hensley was at that meeting and
is founding father of AFN. He has served as the president of
AFN, and was very much part of negotiating the Claims act. The
primary purpose of AFN before 1971 was the Alaska Native Land
Claims Act. (The biggest political event of the year for most
Alaska Native people is the AFN convention in Anchorage every
October.)

However, your Council Chair was quite correct as to what
happened. It might very well have been the best that they could
ever hope to get out of Congress, but the facts are even worse
than giving up 9/10ths of Alaska for chump change. The _main_
reason that Congress was willing to do anything at all was to
get clear title to everything required to begin production of
the Prudhoe Bay oil patch. For 1 billion dollars the US
"bought" 100 billions dollars worth of known oil reserves. It
was basically a simple case of robbery.

P.L.Paul

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
This reminds me of that Farside cartoon.
As a person in a Pith(sp) heltmut gets off a boat. A couple of
"primitive" persons are running to hide their
VCR and TV while yelling "Anthropologists! Anthropoligists!"

pp

rkla...@ptialaska.net

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
I do get it. I've seen some pretty bad things. Sorry, I didn't think I was
being so serious. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but just trying to point
out a different perspective. Jokes are great! Sometimes it's good to know
the name behind the degree. This is all I was trying to say.
Robin

Carter wrote:

> Wait Now! Anthro jokes in NDN country are like lawyer jokes in the rest
> of the country. Lighten up. Some of our worst friends are anthros. get
> it? CC

> rkla...@ptialaska.net wrote:
> >
> > This is true for some. We have several Anthropologists in this area,
> > but many of them are anthropologists who are Tlingit. Some
> > anthropologists are good folks who do a lot of good. Some aren't. I
> > don't think it's the "anthropologist" but the person behind the degree.
> > After all, in each village or community, there are those who you either
> > except as @$%^ or you stay away from them! : )
> > Robin
> >

> > Floyd Davidson wrote:
> >
> > > <AI...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Because Wic Anthro's-many of whom are just grave robbers with a
> > > >degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense.
> > >

> > > What's an anthropoligist? It's a thing kinda like an Indian
> > > dog. It hangs around the porch looking for something to eat,
> > > and most of them can be house broken by about the 6th week or
> > > so. They are easy to maintain, most don't smell too bad, and
> > > will keep the kids occupied and the old folks happy too.
> > >
> > > However there are significant differences. A dog, if you feed
> > > it a few times, will be your friend forever, come Hell or high
> > > water... and will never bite the hand that feeds it.
> > >
> > > Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
> > > the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
> > > scraps.
> > >

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
Floyd Davidson wrote:

> Willie Hensley had more than just a small role... a lot more.
> I met a fellow some years ago who told me how a group of former
> school buddies had been visiting his home, and of course were
> talking politics, when somebody suggested they should form an
> organization much like that little group, a federation of all
> Alaska Natives... And so they did. The Alaska Federation of
> Natives (AFN) was born. Willie Hensley was at that meeting and
> is founding father of AFN. He has served as the president of
> AFN, and was very much part of negotiating the Claims act. The
> primary purpose of AFN before 1971 was the Alaska Native Land
> Claims Act. (The biggest political event of the year for most
> Alaska Native people is the AFN convention in Anchorage every
> October.)

Holy Mackeral, now I'm getting all sorts of old memories back. A guy
from up in your territory that was helping out at Alcatraz and Pit River
who really impressed me was Charlie Edmundson (sp?). This man was
probably the smartest person I've ever met. He kind of became legendary
during the days of the Alaska pipeline controversy. Let me run it by
you to see if it jells with your knowledge on the subject.

Charlie went to Washington to lobby against the pipeline, and he was
successful in stopping it on the strength of the Native rights issue.
But there were two important consequences (retaliations?) Number one
was the first "gasoline shortage" of 1973, which allegedly was 'faked'
to create a public panic, and the second was the settlement of the
Alaska Native claim. With those two things, the door was open to
approve the legislation for the pipeline. (later, the OPEC nations
decided that they too could profit greatly by faking an oil crises, and
we had the second shortage. It's interesting that the inflationary
spiral created by these two crises never settled back down after it was
clear that there was an oil glut).

But you know, these are rumors that circulated around in those days. I
really don't know how true it is. But having met Charlie, it seems
pretty reasonable to think that he could have stopped the pipeline.

I remember the AFN also. A good friend of mine did some work for them
in the early 90s on an ANA project. He was conducting workshops among
several Native communities on self-subsistance and economic
development. I don't know if he made to to Barrow, but he had some
pretty fascinating experiences. For example, he told me about the
problems with engineering sewage systems in a permafrost environment. I
never would have thought of that.

> However, your Council Chair was quite correct as to what
> happened. It might very well have been the best that they could
> ever hope to get out of Congress, but the facts are even worse
> than giving up 9/10ths of Alaska for chump change. The _main_
> reason that Congress was willing to do anything at all was to
> get clear title to everything required to begin production of
> the Prudhoe Bay oil patch. For 1 billion dollars the US
> "bought" 100 billions dollars worth of known oil reserves. It
> was basically a simple case of robbery.

I think things like this will become the focus of the new "Indian
movements" of the future (not that they haven't already been
addressed). But the truth of the matter is that Indian law isn't
airtight, and all the bases haven't been covered. I don't know how much
the rip-off of the Prudhoe Bay pool is is written in stone, but there
are some legal precedents in the Native's favor. The Arkansas Riverbed
case in Oklahoma comes to mind. The decision that favored Indians was
based on the theory that any unspecified right in the treaty process
remains with the Indians. In California, and most Californians and
California Indians don't know this, the status of water rights to the
main rivers is unknown - it has never been adjudicated in court. Since
the California treaties were never ratified by congress, and all Indian
litigation has gone through the executive order process, the Arkansas
Riverbed case doesn't apply. But it's a dangerous game - a tribe that
would sue in court over this issue could easilty lose, and establish the
legal precedent that would nullify all other tribal claims in the
future. So organizations such as the California Indian Legal Services
take a slow and cautious approach -- rejecting grand water rights cases
in favor of small, local issues (like does the spring runoff on a
Rancheria belong to the Indians or the White folks down the hill) and
the long range strategy is to build a solid backlog of pro-Indian
precedents in preparation for the big case.

The original findings of the California Court of Indian Claims
determined that California Indians could sue for the 7 billion in gold
that was removed from Indian land, as well as initiate criminal torts
for family members that were murdered, and for 117 years of acccumulated
interest on the .47 per acre pricetag for California. Subsequently,
these provisions were vetoed, and when the claim was finally paid in
1974 California Indians were denied this right. The California payoff
resembles the Alaska settlement in some ways. California and Nevada had
been battling out the Truckee River - Pyramid Lake issue for a few years
in court. In January of 1974 the Nevada lawyers came to court and
declared that any water treaty between California and Nevada was invalid
because California did not own the water - the Indians did. What
followed was a series of illegal meetings, in which the California
payoff was engineered. They were illegal because the law required that
representatives of the three Native components, the Indians of
California, the Mission Indians, and the Pit River tribe, be notified
and allowed to monitor any meeting involving the California claim.
These meetings were held in secret, and the settlement was engineered,
and two weeks before Christmas, 1974, California Indians received a
surprise check for $680.00 in payment for their ancestral homelands.
The big, giant problem is of course the majority of California Indians
accepted this money. There are a minority, however, who didn't - and at
least one legal theory says that these people who rejected the money
could organize themselves into an intertribal entity, sue for federal
recognition, and file a class action suit on the illigitimacy of the
California settlement.

Erik Mattila


rkla...@ptialaska.net

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Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
I've seen that one and it's funny. LOL! When I took Spanish, our
teacher brought in the same type of cartoon, (like a farside cartoon)
that was about anthropologists, but it was in Spanish!
Robin

Anuh1

unread,
Dec 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/26/99
to
In article <NXf94.3030$GS5....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "David Fire"
<df...@idir.net> writes:

> Could not resist. Add cap full of bleach to bath water and bath
>normally. That does

>the trick. Old southern trick.

Also, dabbing them with alcohol helps. Or if you are not sensitive to bleach,
dab the spot where they have dug in with bleach and let it dry.

Baths with baking soda help, too. They prefer the acid environment of the
body.

Kalera

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
I'm going to hazard a guess, and mind you it is only a guess so any Oklahomans
who want to correct me should do so!

I suspect many Oklahomans may be sensitive because during this century they
have been the target of massive prejudice by people in other states,
particularly California, where many Oklahomans fled in hopes of surviving when
a combination of their poor farming practices and unfavorable weather led to
the creation of the Dust Bowl earlier this century. They've been called "dirty
Okies" and all kinds of other unflattering things. Agricultural states actually
burned or poisoned excess crops to prevent Oklahoma refugees from eating the
food before it spoiled. They're often held up as the epitome of backwoods
yokels, or naive, cornfed farmers.

I could go on, but perhaps you can already see that Oklahomans have a lot to be
defensive over!


In article <3864D9AD...@turtleback.net>, Wayne wrote:

>Hello Erik A. Mattila,
>After reading some of you posts here on alt.native....I have to let you know I
>like the way in which you speak. I'd like also to pass on an observation of
mine.
>Seems some people from "Oklahoma" are a bit sensitive to a huge amount of
>stuff.....do you know why?

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

lenapelady

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
Hi Kalera,

Well "Okies" as you describe here are different from Indians living in OK.

I think it was just a jab from Wayne to try and trifle with Carter, who
promptly dismissed it.

No big deal, no real sociological thing, at least IMHO.


LL

--
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Kalera <macc...@aol.comsee.sig> wrote in message
news:19991227140704...@nso-fr.aol.com...

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
lenapelady wrote:

> Hi Kalera,
>
> Well "Okies" as you describe here are different from Indians living in OK.
>
> I think it was just a jab from Wayne to try and trifle with Carter, who
> promptly dismissed it.
>
> No big deal, no real sociological thing, at least IMHO.
>
> LL

Ah, yes, now I remember that old song "Hey, Okie, if you see Arkie, tell him
Tex has got a job out in California." Now if that ain't no sociological song,
I'll eat my fedora (if I had one).

But Californian's should be greatful. You can find black-eyed peas in many
markets. It the really high-class gourmet stores you can even find poke salad
greens.

Erik Mattila

Carter

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
Actually I took exception to the 'typical' not the okie. Hell, when
okies went to California they raised the IQ of both places! CC

lenapelady wrote:
>
> Hi Kalera,
>
> Well "Okies" as you describe here are different from Indians living in OK.
>
> I think it was just a jab from Wayne to try and trifle with Carter, who
> promptly dismissed it.
>
> No big deal, no real sociological thing, at least IMHO.
>
> LL
>

lenapelady

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
ROFL, Carter.....as we all know, how do you lose a few IQ points reallll
fast? Go over the border into Kansas!

Hope your leg is feeling much better; if you're in the area drop in (as
always) and enjoy the beautiful holiday gift, with a painting style you'll
recognize, that's now adorning my front door. BTW, your family apparently
has one danged good recipe for cookies...!!!! Cheers! LL

Carter <cc...@poncacity.net> wrote in message
news:386802...@poncacity.net...


> Actually I took exception to the 'typical' not the okie. Hell, when
> okies went to California they raised the IQ of both places! CC

lenapelady

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
OK, Erik, I read your post, and got to polk salad, and all I can think of
now is Tony Joe White's "Polk Salad Annie." Fiiiine music! (Of course Elvis
did it too, but the 2 of them sounded very much alike on this one; the edge
has gotta go to Tony Joe just 'cause well, it's the man's MAIN song, ya
know?)

As for the rest, I hope you don't intend to segue this into a thread on
cooking; right now my stance on that is as follows:

I don't even butter my bread; I consider that cooking.
- Katherine Cebrian

LL


Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote in message

news:3867D366...@tomatoweb.com...


> Ah, yes, now I remember that old song "Hey, Okie, if you see Arkie, tell
him
> Tex has got a job out in California." Now if that ain't no sociological
song,
> I'll eat my fedora (if I had one).
>
> But Californian's should be greatful. You can find black-eyed peas in
many
> markets. It the really high-class gourmet stores you can even find poke
salad
> greens.
>
> Erik Mattila
>
> >
> >

> > --
> > "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is
a
> > miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
> > - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
Heck no. If I wanted to be so off-topic, I would have told you about my friend
in San Francisco that had wild onions growing in his backyard every spring and
didn't even know it (He was from Hartford - culturally and cullinarily
challenged).

Erik

lenapelady wrote:

> OK, Erik, I read your post, and got to polk salad, and all I can think of
> now is Tony Joe White's "Polk Salad Annie." Fiiiine music! (Of course Elvis
> did it too, but the 2 of them sounded very much alike on this one; the edge
> has gotta go to Tony Joe just 'cause well, it's the man's MAIN song, ya
> know?)

Hey, that's cookin' music! I mean "that music cooks!"

> As for the rest, I hope you don't intend to segue this into a thread on
> cooking; right now my stance on that is as follows:
>
> I don't even butter my bread; I consider that cooking.
> - Katherine Cebrian

Yep. In the deep woods of California butter is called 'skid grease.' (an old
logger's term)

Happy New Year,

Erik

Erik A. Mattila

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Dec 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/27/99
to
Carter wrote:

> Actually I took exception to the 'typical' not the okie. Hell, when
> okies went to California they raised the IQ of both places! CC

Maybe generally true, but I know of one case where it went up in OK but stayed
the same in CA. A friend of mine was a carpenter, and met an Okie at the Union
Hall, who had signed up on his 'travel card' from his Tulsa hall. The Okie went
out to apply for a position at the Mare Island Navel Base, and when my friend
saw him back at the hall the next day he asked "did you get that job?" The Okie
said "Hell, no. The first thing they wanted was an I.Q. test, and I don't even
have none!"

BTW, Kenny Tiger's famous statment, made at the mouth of the Klamath River in
CA, was "Two weeks ago I never heard of a Yurok, and now I are one." --K.T.,
1979

Erik

lenapelady

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Dec 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/28/99
to
Well, remember this, there are worse things than OK; to wit:

On Tony Joe White's "best of" album, there's this song--
"They Caught The Devil And Put Him In Jail In Eudora, Arkansas"

Arkansas, that's baaaaad. Let alone bein' in the jail in Arkansas. Then
again, it being Arkansas, how you gonna tell the difference between
sufferin' in jail and just sufferin' bein' in Arkansas?

Veronica's Closet had this great episode where Ronnie goes home to Kansas to
get some kind of honor. As they're rolling along in the limousine she looks
out and says "someone needs to tell these people they're free, they can
leave here!"

Now back to whatever,

Happy New Year, groove on some Bob Wills, try the "Asleep at the Wheel"
album honoring his Western swing...

not to mention the "Oklahoma Hills" tune I have on my web pages!

LL
p.s. just realized I grabbed the wrong message to reply; sorry 'bout that,
not trying to ignore your onions,nor taters, neither!


--
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote in message

news:3867FAC3...@tomatoweb.com...

Kalera

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Dec 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/28/99
to
Haha... that's funny!

A book I enjoyed some time ago was written by a man who used to be a
phtographer for National Geographic. He quit after it became too much for him
to stomach that they would simply refuse to publish any photos of ANY
indigenous Americans, North or South, which portrayed them as they are in
reality... the magazine would only publish photos which showed them living in
"primitive" style, and in fact avoids North American indigenous people as much
as possible.

In article <386629...@plplplpl.ca>, "P.L.Paul" wrote:

>This reminds me of that Farside cartoon.
>As a person in a Pith(sp) heltmut gets off a boat. A couple of
>"primitive" persons are running to hide their
>VCR and TV while yelling "Anthropologists! Anthropoligists!"
>
>pp

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

William McLaughlin

unread,
Dec 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/28/99
to
On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:26:00 GMT, "lenapelady" <lde...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Happy New Year, groove on some Bob Wills, try the "Asleep at the Wheel"
>album honoring his Western swing...
>
>not to mention the "Oklahoma Hills" tune I have on my web pages!

Dear LL:

What, no Spade Cooley??? No Light Crust Doughboys??? No Dan
Hicks and his Hot Licks???


I =love= Western Swing (my Momma's from OK City),

Mac

(Copy sent via email.)

-----------------------------------------------------
WILLIAM MC LAUGHLIN
vaga...@voicenet.com

Affiliation: Card-carrying member of the Whiteboy Tribe
Indian Name: Running Joke
Power Animal: Brontosaurus (mine's bigger!)
-----------------------------------------------------

A Criminal is a person with predatory instincts without sufficient
capital to form a corporation."

---Clarence Darrow

Todd Clark

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Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
In article <83tek...@enews1.newsguy.com>,
fl...@ptialaska.net wrote:

> > <AI...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Because Wic Anthro's, many of whom are just grave robbers


> > with a degree, aren't "supportive" in the real sense.
>
> What's an anthropoligist? It's a thing kinda like an Indian
> dog. It hangs around the porch looking for something to eat,
> and most of them can be house broken by about the 6th week or
> so. They are easy to maintain, most don't smell too bad, and
> will keep the kids occupied and the old folks happy too.
>
> However there are significant differences. A dog, if you feed
> it a few times, will be your friend forever, come Hell or high
> water... and will never bite the hand that feeds it.
>
> Also the dog will stay longer too, hence, I've suggested here in
> the past that the dog should be given first choice of table
> scraps.
>

> Floyd L. Davidson
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Ever hear the song "Here Come The Anthros" by another famous Floyd, the
Lakota singer/actor Floyd Red Crow Westerman? He is also critical of
various anthropological exploitations of indigenous peoples in his own
sarcastic, but humorous way.

--
Todd Tamanend Clark
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Activist
Pennsylvania American Indian Movement
http://www.annihilist.com/cgi-bin/profiles.cgi?step=view_all


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

lenapelady

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Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
Wow, Mac, hadn't even heard of these guys!

Now, careful, given some other posts, you might not want to admit this OK
tie-in, LOL!

Dan HIcks and his Hot Licks???!!

Whooooo dooooogies! Gotta find that!

Let's "stay all night, dance a little longer.."!!

LL

--
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

William McLaughlin <vaga...@voicenet.com> wrote in message
news:i44i6sckgtomgpknc...@4ax.com...

Kalera

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Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
I see.

I don't know much about Oklahomans, just that some people tend to speak
disrespectfully of them.

I understand it, being an Oregonian. Things have changed, but people used to
ask if it was really as muddy as they'd heard, and whether I raised sheep.

In article <%qP94.5401$GF1.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"lenapelady" wrote:

>Hi Kalera,
>
>Well "Okies" as you describe here are different from Indians living in OK.
>
>I think it was just a jab from Wayne to try and trifle with Carter, who
>promptly dismissed it.
>
>No big deal, no real sociological thing, at least IMHO.
>
>
>LL

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

Kalera

unread,
Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
Heh heh, I like this!

In article <386802...@poncacity.net>, Carter wrote:

>Actually I took exception to the 'typical' not the okie. Hell, when
>okies went to California they raised the IQ of both places! CC

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

Kalera

unread,
Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
Does anyone else see the humor in this particular sub-topic having sprung up in
a thread about anthropologists?

-Kalera (kale...@aol.com), mommy to Juliet (January 29, 1998) and Sam

lenapelady

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Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
Well, see, it's like this: I live in OK but I am not an Okie, not by my
definition.

Did you ever get to see Howdy Doody? Anyway, there's a genuine "type" of
Oklahoman, families been here since the "boomer" days; and they tend to look
like--Howdy Doody. Take a look at Reba McIntire, even fluffed and dried, she
has a bit of it. That's one Okie.

Then there's the basic Okie, who still lives with a "Boomer" mentality, and
it shows: "it's my land, my dog, my wife, my truck, I'll do damned well with
it what I choose" and if the shit rolls downhill from his pasture to your
lake, well, dont worry, soon it will be HIS property anyway. All over the
place we have the remnants of the oil boomers; and all of the boomers show
the mentality that led to the Indians losing so much through being shoved
aside, thrugh legal chicanery (read Angie Debo!) and especially in the case
of the Osages, outright murder.

Then around here, we have what I call the "Stepford Village." Did you ever
see the Stepford Wives, where all the women in a community are replaced by
robots who are alwayshappy and perfect in EVERY way? Here, the Reader's
Digest view of the world is current history; and every day is Pleasantville
in the 1950's. The "boomer" mentality don't care what's going on as long as
they get what's theirs (everything); the Stepford Village folks don't
believe anything bad is going on as long as we all color black and white, in
between the lines.

That's just a short intro to the Field Guide to Oklahomans, which if I get
crazy enough, maybe I'll write. Interesting species here; and all, well,
uniquely Oklahoman!

Then there's Indian Oklahoma.

You can feel the difference...it's like swimming from the cold water into
the warm, quiet little currents that amble here and there.

It's a fascinating place. Maybe they ought to set up a reservation here,
ship all the anthros here that are bugging the rez's, and let them study the
Okies.

Wow! Not a bad idea...!!! =;}

LL


--
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Kalera <macc...@aol.comsee.sig> wrote in message

news:19991229011448...@nso-ck.aol.com...

Floyd Davidson

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Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
<macc...@aol.comsee.sig> wrote:
>Heh heh, I like this!
>
>In article <386802...@poncacity.net>, Carter wrote:
>
>>Actually I took exception to the 'typical' not the okie. Hell, when
>>okies went to California they raised the IQ of both places! CC

To fully appreciate that, you need to know a little bit about
the history of how California came to be populated prior to the
influx of Oakies. White people discovered that there was gold
in California shortly after the Oregon Trail had come into use,
and so a fork in the trail, in Nebraska I think, led to
California. PBS did a documentary on the Oregon Trail a few
years back, and they interviewed a historian in Oregon about the
significance of that fork in the trail. His comment was
interesting. He said the trail was marked with a sign that said
"Oregon ===>" on the right hand fork, and a huge pile of quartz
and fool's gold on the left hand trail to California.

And so it was, he said, that everyone who came down the Oregon
trail that could read, went to Oregon...


There was another story too in that PBS documentary which is
worth repeating again. It seems that most of the people who
decided to head west were from farming areas, and unlike the
popular myth that Americans have always had guns, most of these
people had no experience at all with firearms. The leading
cause of death on the Oregon trail was from gun accidents. The
typical first encounter with buffalo would see every man who had
horse and a gun mounted up chasing off to shoot a buffalo, to
thus earn status as a great white hunter. In the process, they
often shot each other by mistake. One historian (an Indian)
that was interviewed read some diary accounts of various fatal
gun accidents, and then explained that perhaps this was natural
selection at work. He said anybody who was dumb enough to reach
into the back of a moving wagon and remove a loaded rifle by
grabbing the muzzle and pulling it directly towards them, was
clearly to dumb to live in Oregon. (Obviously this was early
in the use of the Oregon Trail, and later on more sophisticated
means were needed to select settlers for Oregon, hence the
fork in the trail to California.)

Erik A. Mattila

unread,
Dec 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/29/99
to
lenapelady wrote:

> Well, see, it's like this: I live in OK but I am not an Okie, not by my
> definition.
>
> Did you ever get to see Howdy Doody? Anyway, there's a genuine "type" of
> Oklahoman, families been here since the "boomer" days; and they tend to look
> like--Howdy Doody. Take a look at Reba McIntire, even fluffed and dried, she
> has a bit of it. That's one Okie.

Woo wheee. This is direct from the Peanut Gallery, isn't it? Mom wouldn't let
me and sis watch H.D. that much (I only liked Cyclone Malone) and I wonder if
it's because she didn't like that 'type' you're describing. We had to watch
Beanie and Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent and Captain Huff n' Puff. But now
that you mention it, Mom had all sorts of stories about the Boomers. My
favorite was about her trip to OK -- it must have been around 1934 -- just
after the invention of the hamburger. She ordered one in a cafe in Tecumseh,
and the waitress said "Y'all whant a buun?? (I don't know how to write 'bun' to
capture the vernacular). Mom got the most moronic expression on her face that
she could conjur up (she was about 14 at the time) and said "Whadd are buuns?"

> Then there's the basic Okie, who still lives with a "Boomer" mentality, and
> it shows: "it's my land, my dog, my wife, my truck, I'll do damned well with
> it what I choose" and if the shit rolls downhill from his pasture to your
> lake, well, dont worry, soon it will be HIS property anyway. All over the
> place we have the remnants of the oil boomers; and all of the boomers show
> the mentality that led to the Indians losing so much through being shoved
> aside, thrugh legal chicanery (read Angie Debo!) and especially in the case
> of the Osages, outright murder.

I actually met Angie Debo about ten years ago -- what a remarkable person. But
I don't think what you are describing is limited to the Boomers. For example,
an incident that my wife is dealing with right now. She's Pascua Yaqui, and
recently (2 years ago) we moved down to her folks ranch in order to care for
them (Imperial Valley, CA). A while back there was a lot of tractors and
trailers parked around, which is common, but we realized that the were removing
topsoil from her dad's ranch and hauling it over to an adjacent field in order
to build an irrigation pad. When we checked it out, we found out that one of
the biggest ranch corps in the area had bought the acreage to the south and was
developing it. In fact, the road we live on is named for this guy. So we
called the Sheriff to lodge a criminal complaint, but they wouldn't file the
case with the DA. After applying some pressure, they finally agreed to file
the case, but they rewrote to the text of the investigation to make it look
like they didn't steal the dirt. Of course the DA then refused to prosecute
under the criminal statutes. The thing is, the replacement value of this soil,
including hauling, is up over one hundred thousand dollars. So now we have a
civil litigation going on, but it was really difficult to find a lawyer who
would even file against the corporation.

> Then around here, we have what I call the "Stepford Village." Did you ever
> see the Stepford Wives, where all the women in a community are replaced by
> robots who are alwayshappy and perfect in EVERY way? Here, the Reader's
> Digest view of the world is current history; and every day is Pleasantville
> in the 1950's. The "boomer" mentality don't care what's going on as long as
> they get what's theirs (everything); the Stepford Village folks don't
> believe anything bad is going on as long as we all color black and white, in
> between the lines.

Or that community that lived underground in "The Boy and His Dog."

> That's just a short intro to the Field Guide to Oklahomans, which if I get
> crazy enough, maybe I'll write. Interesting species here; and all, well,
> uniquely Oklahoman!
>
> Then there's Indian Oklahoma.
>
> You can feel the difference...it's like swimming from the cold water into
> the warm, quiet little currents that amble here and there.

I agree.

> It's a fascinating place. Maybe they ought to set up a reservation here,
> ship all the anthros here that are bugging the rez's, and let them study the
> Okies.
>
> Wow! Not a bad idea...!!! =;}
>
> LL

Excellent idea. In the early seventies there was an Anthro student at UC
Berkeley who was a native Papua New Guinea person. His dissertation was on
Berkeley academic culture -- and he really rattled some cages. The major crit
against his work was that his subject wasn't a 'culture' in the same sense that
a tribe in New Guinea was (ha ha ha).

Erik

Kalera

unread,
Dec 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/30/99