definition of totem
David Dalton
which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
species and not another species.
I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
their spirits or energy bodies).
For more discussion on this see the webpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
.
You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
But I am non-native and have had more celtic influences, and I guess
I could be called a new ager since I have invented some of my
belief system. But I intend to learn more of the traditions of
this land though unfortunately the Beothucks are gone from here.
But I hope to learn some from scholarly studies of the Beothuck
and from the Mi'qmaq (sp?) and from British Columbia natives,
especially the Musqueam who should own the land where I did my
naked thorn hill climb.
David
wolvbtch
what a bunch of new age garbage...
dal...@nfld.com (David Dalton) wrote in message news:<aauu9f$o9g$1...@hathaway.nfld.com>...
Jim Burnes
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
> I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
> sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
> thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
> eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
> end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
> David
David,
Being that you have already done your own naked
sundance / sun stare / thorn hill climb / glowing (at night) sky blue
rose vision, I suggest you make a trek to one of the reservations in
South Dakota, report to the tribal council building and state that
your ready for their ceremony to begin.
Do this in May.
Jim Burnes
Mike
How Davie
Me have heap big totom errr totem. Have special pants just to hold me
totem. Me no worship it. It just alive by it self.
Jennifergiggle
(nose laugh)
Bright Thunder
wolvbtch wrote:
> oh my!!!!!!!
> what a bunch of new age garbage...
To be sure!!!!
JBT
Ellen Mill
Jim Burnes <turtl...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Being that you have already done your own naked
>sundance / sun stare / thorn hill climb / glowing (at night) sky blue
>rose vision, I suggest you make a trek to one of the reservations in
>South Dakota, report to the tribal council building and state that
>your ready for their ceremony to begin.
>
> Do this in May.
>
> Jim Burnes
Hey, Jim ...
Now that's just not NICE. *chortle*
Ellen
Ellen Mill
Bright Thunder <clo...@softcom.net> wrote:
>
>
>wolvbtch wrote:
>
>> oh my!!!!!!!
>> what a bunch of new age garbage...
>
>To be sure!!!!
>
> JBT
You all are a lot more articulate than me; my first reaction was just
... "Wow". *grin*
Ellen
Morfydd
:-D
Mop
"Ellen Mill" <o...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:ab0qda$n...@garcia.efn.org...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 19/02/2002
Carmen
Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
Gee I'd really like to have a look at that some time Mike,
can you put up a pic on usenet so we can all examine it for authenticity ?
Carmen
wolvbtch
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab1k74$e4q$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > dal...@nfld.com (David Dalton) wrote in message
> news:<aauu9f$o9g$1...@hathaway.nfld.com>...
snipped
Mike
Hi Carmen
Can't find a cameria with big lens when I do I'll send ya one.
Mikey
and friend
Carmen
> > > totem. Me no worship it. It just alive by it self.
> >
> > Gee I'd really like to have a look at that some time Mike,
> > can you put up a pic on usenet so we can all examine it for authenticity
?
> >
> > Carmen
>
> Hi Carmen
>
> Can't find a cameria with big lens when I do I'll send ya >one.
Oh good I shall look forward to that
and treasure it
:)
But anyway on a serious note :-
I was reading the may/June edition of my favourite magazine this morning
go here for pic of last month's glossy cover:-
http://www.soil-health.org.nz/index.htm
Page 7 of this months edition is an article concerning
Wild Rice
'manoomin'
the article reads that 2 Claifornian companies currently have "patents on
hybrid strains and are working on male sterility in the wild
rice......irreversably alter the natural wild rice strains"
At the bottom of the article is a reference to
"White Earth Land recovery Project"
I stopped reading and stared off into space,
well actually, to tell the truth I stared off onto the wall at the other
side of the room, and I wondered to myself
"White Earth ? ..... that's Mike "
So just did a websearch and found this
http://www.welrp.org/index.html
So, it seems you guys are everywhere,
including my favourite magazine
Carmen
> Mikey
> and friend
Carmen
wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around, eh?
Yeah we women can all comment on it
and titter among ourselves, eh?
Carmen
the website at the bottom of the afore mentioned article is here :-
www.grain.org
I depart this newsgroup
and find y'all are now infiltrating my magazines
LOL
Carmen
Carmen <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
Mike
Hi Carmen
White Earth is my wifes reservation. I do write for them sometimes,
and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
going up there right now.
Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
wild food anymore. I do love wild rice. And yes we are everywhere.
Mike
wolvbtch
i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to fame...
but thanks for the link....
i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild rice....
they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
wolvbtch
carmen!!!
you did give me a good laugh this morning...i needed it, thank you....
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a2j$jk5$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
Mike
> carmen..
> i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to fame...
> but thanks for the link....
> i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild rice....
> they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
>
>
I'm from AZ, and an Apache.
Now those are two things I love. Well everyone knows I like to eat,
but maple candy homemade god I'm in heaven. It takes so much just to
make it, but well worth the time. Now wild rice is great fried,
stuffed, baked, and just about anyway you can cook it.
Mike
> "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
I snipped it to make room
Mike
> wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around, eh?
>
> Yeah we women can all comment on it
> and titter among ourselves, eh?
>
I let my ass over run my mouth while trying to be funny, and no you
can't have a picture of that too. hehehe
Mike
John Blahna
> I'm from AZ, and an Apache.
> Now those are two things I love. Well everyone knows I like to eat,
> but maple candy homemade god I'm in heaven. It takes so much just to
> make it, but well worth the time.
it's pretty available up here.
>Now wild rice is great fried,
> stuffed, baked, and just about anyway you can cook it.
and that's the catch. folks up here are wondering how safe our natural crop
will be when the hybridized stuff comes out.
john
Mike
Hi John
I wish it was down here. Talked to my sister in law and she's going to
send me some. hard to wait.
I don't know much about rice like I do corn, but I think it would be
about the same. It's getting harder and harder to find our origional
corn. If any field is near by the wind blows the pollen to your field,
plus bee's ect..
Mike
Carmen
> Hi Carmen
>
> White Earth is my wifes reservation.
I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
machines there.
Been thinking of getting one of them lately
>I do write for them sometimes,
> and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
> going up there right now.
> Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
> wild food anymore. I do love wild rice.
Have never tried it, I think that is the big plan
so we the people wont be able to gather wild food,
a price on everything
>And yes we are everywhere.
I was walking past a library shelf the other day and as I breezed past, a
book stood out, something about a stone canoe by Harvey Ardin. Canoes are
good, so I got it out haven't started reading it yet but glossed thru it. I
left there and went to a shopping mall over the road, was hurrying past a
bookshop, there was a sales table outside which I glanced at, and there on
top of the huge pile of books was a book called "skins". I thought to
myself
"this is a sign !!!!"
:-D
Well I picked it up and flicked thru, it appeared to be an anthology of
writings by Native Americans, I didn't buy it.
I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ and
a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling ?)
Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of 'em.
:-D
carmen
> Mike
Carmen
> carmen..
> i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to
fame...
I saw that but didn't take a lot of notice, Donna is her own brand of wild
rice, very interesting and amusing but maybe just a little too wild for me
to keep up with
:)
> but thanks for the link....
> i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild
rice....
> they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
Maple syrup, pancakes and whipped cream !
I don't think I would like the desert, I lived in the desert of australia,
it had red sand, lots of Aborigine people, spinifex grass, very tall ant
hills, snakes, red back spiders, the people were very tough.
Carmen
Carmen
news:<ab2a2j$jk5$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > > yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around,
eh?
> >
> > Yeah we women can all comment on it
> > and titter among ourselves, eh?
> >
> > Ok Carmen
>
> I let my ass over run my mouth while trying to be funny,
Don't worry, happens to me all the time
>and no you
> can't have a picture of that too. hehehe
Phew I'm relieved
Carmen
> Mike
>
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Hi Carmen
> >
> > White Earth is my wifes reservation.
>
> I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
> machines there.
> Been thinking of getting one of them lately
>
They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
talking about before.
> >I do write for them sometimes,
> > and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
> > going up there right now.
> > Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
> > wild food anymore. I do love wild rice.
>
> Have never tried it, I think that is the big plan
> so we the people wont be able to gather wild food,
> a price on everything
>
That's the whole idea.
> >And yes we are everywhere.
>
> I was walking past a library shelf the other day and as I breezed past, a
> book stood out, something about a stone canoe by Harvey Ardin. Canoes are
> good, so I got it out haven't started reading it yet but glossed thru it. I
> left there and went to a shopping mall over the road, was hurrying past a
> bookshop, there was a sales table outside which I glanced at, and there on
> top of the huge pile of books was a book called "skins". I thought to
> myself
> "this is a sign !!!!"
> :-D
> Well I picked it up and flicked thru, it appeared to be an anthology of
> writings by Native Americans, I didn't buy it.
>
> I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ and
> a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling ?)
> Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
>
Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
> Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of 'em.
> :-D
> carmen
>
>
As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
the woods.
I'm too old for that kind of thing anymore I'd rather sit back with a
fishing rod and watch the birds, and waves.
Mike
Jennifergiggle
John Blahna wrote:
Hi John,
I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and altered
is from withing the DNA. DNA is inside the nucleus of the cell and is
protected naturally by a membrane. Generally the integrity is protected. One
of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it. :(
Jen
p.s. hybriding doesn't change the DNA of a plant WITH other compounds that
nature would've prevented from crossing over that membrane.
wolvbtch
>
> I saw that but didn't take a lot of notice, Donna is her own brand of wild
> rice, very interesting and amusing but maybe just a little too wild for me
> to keep up with
> :)
eyah on that one!!! and excellent way of putting it...
> Maple syrup, pancakes and whipped cream !
>
> I don't think I would like the desert, I lived in the desert of australia,
> it had red sand, lots of Aborigine people, spinifex grass, very tall ant
> hills, snakes, red back spiders, the people were very tough.
>
> Carmen
we have rattlesnakes, sidewinders, green mohave snakes, cacti, black
widow spiders and brown recluse spiders...little water, lots of
sand...
we have red ants, "aborigine" people, lol...of which i am one, and
people have to be tough to even survive the heat...
however, we do not have high property taxes, drive by shootings,
overcrowding, road rage, gangs, (yet)...come to think of it, city
people must have to be very tough, too....
wolvbtch
i am in arizona, too...just up the way from you....
MikePu...@msn.com (Mike) wrote in message news:<5e0d76a8.0205...@posting.google.com>...
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>Now wild rice is great fried,
>> stuffed, baked, and just about anyway you can cook it.
>
>and that's the catch. folks up here are wondering how safe our natural crop
>will be when the hybridized stuff comes out.
It won't be. That's the problem!
Have any of you tried freezing some for seed. Is it possible to cover the
female parts and fertilize them from known wild sources? That would be
equivalent to hybridizing for wildness, in a sense, but you would probably have
to have some kind of enclosed wild rice patch to use. I don't know if there
will be any real method to fight this, but I would try to preserve some of the
seed for future planting, if at all possible, as the day is bound to come when
people get their heads out of their asses and realize what is being done to our
food supplies!
John Blahna
> I don't know much about rice like I do corn, but I think it would be
> about the same.
I have plenty of wild rice recipies if you have some idea of what you'd like
to make it into I may be able to help.
It's getting harder and harder to find our origional
> corn.
I can't say this definitively but I don't think our native wild rice is
going away. It just seems to be losing the race with paddy grown
versions...which are not the same.
John Blahna
"Jennifergiggle" <theg...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3CD69514...@bigfoot.com...
> I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
> Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and
altered
> is from withing the DNA.
thank you for the clarification. I know I heard this was DNA modification
and I mistook it for hybridizing. I'm guessing the paddy grown rice from
California etc. is indeed hybridized...a cross between real wild rice and
some other sort. Do you know?
> One
> of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
> freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it.
:(
In this particular case there are lots of desireable characteristics of
natural wild rice (which is why for some it's sorta "free for the taking")
Do you know if the DNA alteration in this case will change any of those
characteristics?
johnmohdom (not mr. wizard 80)
John Blahna
"Anuh1" <an...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020506123454...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> Have any of you tried freezing some for seed.
it's a natural reseeding plant. the issue is not having a shortage of seed
it's the reduction of habitat and competition from other forms of the
product. Since other types of rice are grown up here theres little or no
chance for crossing.
> Is it possible to cover the
> female parts and fertilize them from known wild sources?
I suppose this could be done in controlled areas but wild rice stands cover
acres and acres of lake and river.
> I don't know if there
> will be any real method to fight this, but I would try to preserve some of
the
> seed for future planting,
I really don't know what the threat is other than economic. but coming from
a tribe that traditionally harvested wild rice my real concern is not
financial but rather with inadvertently (or advertently) changing the nature
of the crop.
johnmohdom
Jennifergiggle
While I am not Mz. Wizard either there are some things I have learned about
GE. Inserting below
John Blahna wrote:
> "Jennifergiggle" <theg...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3CD69514...@bigfoot.com...
>
> > I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
> > Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and
> altered
> > is from withing the DNA.
>
> thank you for the clarification. I know I heard this was DNA modification
> and I mistook it for hybridizing. I'm guessing the paddy grown rice from
> California etc. is indeed hybridized...a cross between real wild rice and
> some other sort. Do you know?
No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will indeed
hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE and non
is indeed GE.)
>
>
> > One
> > of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
> > freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it.
> :(
>
> In this particular case there are lots of desireable characteristics of
> natural wild rice (which is why for some it's sorta "free for the taking")
> Do you know if the DNA alteration in this case will change any of those
> characteristics?
>
Thing that is the worst I think isn't the qualities that are chosen but, the
barrier crossing charicteristics and ability of the things that are used to
'host' those traits to grow. The chosen traits are 'grown and then harvested
from' viruses, bacteria, cancers and tumors. Those are chosen to be hosts
because they have rapid growth rate among other things. So, the host's traits
cross the barrier into the genetic traits which are then inserted into the DNA
of whatever may be. Sticky situation and if I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some
records I have laying around where scientists warned against this with proof in
the 70's.
Jen
Anuh1
writes:
>I don't think I would like the desert, I lived in the desert of australia,
>it had red sand, lots of Aborigine people, spinifex grass, very tall ant
>hills, snakes, red back spiders, the people were very tough.
Is spinifex grass that kind that sticks into your feet with barbs or something?
Sounds familiar, anyway.
Anuh1
(wolvbtch) writes:
>we have red ants, "aborigine" people, lol...of which i am one, and
>people have to be tough to even survive the heat...
>however, we do not have high property taxes, drive by shootings,
>overcrowding, road rage, gangs, (yet)...come to think of it, city
>people must have to be very tough, too....
>
But you do have "trailer trash", from what I hear! ;-D
Anuh1
MikePu...@msn.com (Mike) writes:
>I don't know much about rice like I do corn, but I think it would be
>about the same. It's getting harder and harder to find our origional
>corn. If any field is near by the wind blows the pollen to your field,
>plus bee's ect..
Most grasses are pollinated almost exclusively by the wind, which is why you
never plant just a single row of corn or wheat - you plant it in blocks. That
way, the pollen has a better change of hitting the silks on the corn and the
tassels on the wheat or wild oats! ;-D
Anuh1
<theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
>Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and
>altered
>is from withing the DNA. DNA is inside the nucleus of the cell and is
>protected naturally by a membrane. Generally the integrity is protected.
>One
>of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
>freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it. :(
>Jen
>p.s. hybriding doesn't change the DNA of a plant WITH other compounds that
>nature would've prevented from crossing over that membrane.
Although there is that little thing about the packet of DNA separate from that
in the nucleus! ;-D I haven't figured out quite how that figures into all
this genetically engineered foodstuffs!
Mike
Hi John
The last time I was up at White Earth my Mother in law made some
stuffed bell pepers with wild rice, some kind of mushroom, and elk
meat. It was the best I ever had. I just never asked her how she
prepared the rice. I tried it with white rice, but it just didn't
taste the same. Do you fry it first or soak it what? We don't have
much rice where I'm from. Mostly corn and squash.
Mike
Jennifergiggle
I copied this response of mine from another post. Maybe it'll clarify why the
characteristics and traits chosen from one species' DNA isn't the super
troublesome part.
Insert:
Thing that is the worst I think isn't the qualities that are chosen but, the
barrier crossing charicteristics and ability of the things that are used to
'host' those traits to grow. The chosen traits are 'grown and then harvested
from' viruses, bacteria, cancers and tumors. Those are chosen to be hosts
because they have rapid growth rate among other things. So, the host's traits
cross the barrier into the genetic traits which are then inserted into the DNA
of whatever may be. Sticky situation and if I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some
records I have laying around where scientists warned against this with proof in
the 70's.
Jen
wolvbtch
but as yet, they have not started shooting at each other...YET!!!
an...@aol.com (Anuh1) wrote in message news:<20020506224515...@mb-cg.aol.com>...
John Blahna
some soak it overnight. I prefer to simmer it for up to 45 minutes, then mix
it with whatever you want to before baking ( e.g. in stuffed pepper). the
key is to simmer it only until the kernels start to pop open. I almost
always simmer it in some sort of stock, especially chicken. If you are going
to use it as a side dish (no further cooking after the simmering) you may
want to go a bit longer, it can be crunchy if all of the kernels haven't
opened. ...leave it on longer and it can start to get mushy...fortunately I
have worked with it long enough to know when it's ready.
johnmohdom
John Blahna
> No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will
indeed
> hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE and
non
> is indeed GE.)
doesn't that defeat the purpose of both GE and hybridizing? apparently a
key will be to keep the different types from crossing.
> Those are chosen to be hosts
> because they have rapid growth rate among other things.
so, a GE wild rice would have a different growth rate than natural? ...how
different than the natural annual cycle (and the ceremonies related).
johnmohdom
Jennifergiggle
John Blahna wrote:
John,
The traits that are desired from a non-rice are themselves brewed up and
harvested by being injected into the host, (example of a tumor for rapid
growth,) then extracted from the tumor host. The desired trait is injected into
the DNA of the rice. Its really is a guess as to which traits from the host
have crossed over into and with the desired DNA trait.
Jen
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
>thank you for the clarification. I know I heard this was DNA modification
>and I mistook it for hybridizing. I'm guessing the paddy grown rice from
>California etc. is indeed hybridized...a cross between real wild rice and
>some other sort. Do you know?
I can't speak for paddy grown rice in California, but the paddy grown rice
grown in Arkansas is not at all related to wild rice, which is a different
grass species. Rice is its own species and as far as I know, they have never
crossed wild rice with any of the "other" rices.
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
>"Anuh1" <an...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20020506123454...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>
>
>> Have any of you tried freezing some for seed.
>
>it's a natural reseeding plant. the issue is not having a shortage of seed
>it's the reduction of habitat and competition from other forms of the
>product. Since other types of rice are grown up here theres little or no
>chance for crossing.
I was thinking more along the lines of "someday the white man will realize what
he hath wroth" and at that time, if there is none of the original seed still
around, you won't be able to dig out the contaminated plants and reseed.
>> Is it possible to cover the
>> female parts and fertilize them from known wild sources?
>
>I suppose this could be done in controlled areas but wild rice stands cover
>acres and acres of lake and river.
I know. I was up there years ago and was amazed at the stands of wild rice
along the lake edges!
>
>> I don't know if there
>> will be any real method to fight this, but I would try to preserve some of
>the
>> seed for future planting,
>
>I really don't know what the threat is other than economic. but coming from
>a tribe that traditionally harvested wild rice my real concern is not
>financial but rather with inadvertently (or advertently) changing the nature
>of the crop.
We can only speculate. IF, for example, the rice turned out to be harmful (I
don't trust scientists to have the faintest idea what they are doing), you
would want to be able to replace it. If it is okay, tastes the same and has no
ill effects that we can't live with, it still has replaced a variety that no
longer would exist. That is rather a tough thing to face!
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
>"Jennifergiggle" <theg...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:3CD71A4C...@bigfoot.com...
>> No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will
>indeed
>> hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE and
>non
>> is indeed GE.)
>
>doesn't that defeat the purpose of both GE and hybridizing? apparently a
>key will be to keep the different types from crossing.
With hybridizing, the idea is to make it so that you can not save your own seed
successfully, and the plant company with the patent reaps all the profits.
With GE, I suspect it would be, as was mentioned, to see that no male plants
exist to fertilize the existing female plants. The seed of the cross would
produce only female plants, so you would have to buy the male seed every year,
again to enrich the person with the patent.
I can see patenting hybridized plants. I can not see being allowed to patent
something that has been GE'd. I think it is a travesty but it has already gone
so far, I'm not sure we can make it all the way back!
Anuh1
<theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>I copied this response of mine from another post. Maybe it'll clarify why
>the
>characteristics and traits chosen from one species' DNA isn't the super
>troublesome part.
>
>Insert:
>Thing that is the worst I think isn't the qualities that are chosen but, the
>barrier crossing charicteristics and ability of the things that are used to
>'host' those traits to grow. The chosen traits are 'grown and then harvested
>from' viruses, bacteria, cancers and tumors. Those are chosen to be hosts
>because they have rapid growth rate among other things. So, the host's
>traits
>cross the barrier into the genetic traits which are then inserted into the
>DNA
>of whatever may be. Sticky situation and if I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some
>records I have laying around where scientists warned against this with proof
>in the 70's.
Thanks, but that still didn't clarify that little packet of DNA that I've heard
exists in all cells, totally separate from the nucleus. I realize that most of
the engineered DNA strands are coming from things like viruses, bacteria and
such, as with the corn that is supposed to repel corn worms! Dipel-ready corn,
I think they call it! It's that little bitty DNA packet that I've heard
mentioned on a few programs. It stuck in my head, like it might be the key to
unlocking anything we do that we might get wrong, but I don't know.
Thanks for the further explanation. All info helps!
Jennifergiggle
Anuh1 wrote:
> In article <3CD7BDD9...@bigfoot.com>, Jennifergiggle
> <theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >I copied this response of mine from another post. Maybe it'll clarify why
> >the
> >characteristics and traits chosen from one species' DNA isn't the super
> >troublesome part.
> >
> >Insert:
> >Thing that is the worst I think isn't the qualities that are chosen but, the
> >barrier crossing charicteristics and ability of the things that are used to
> >'host' those traits to grow. The chosen traits are 'grown and then harvested
> >from' viruses, bacteria, cancers and tumors. Those are chosen to be hosts
> >because they have rapid growth rate among other things. So, the host's
> >traits
> >cross the barrier into the genetic traits which are then inserted into the
> >DNA
> >of whatever may be. Sticky situation and if I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some
> >records I have laying around where scientists warned against this with proof
> >in the 70's.
>
> Thanks, but that still didn't clarify that little packet of DNA that I've heard
> exists in all cells, totally separate from the nucleus.
The DNA is indeed a packet, (which is within and protected in the nucleus.)
In GE the desired traits are extracted from one "Whiggyit's" DNA and inserted to
grow rapidly in (say) a tumor.
When the tumor has reproduced, (rapidly along with the specified DNA,) the DNA
trait is extracted from the tumor and transplanted into a goobleygook's DNA, (so
that it can have the whiggyit's trait.)
Trouble is its very difficult to exctract only the 'trait' out of the tumors
altered DNA and to transplant just that alone from the whiggyits DNA into the
gobbleygook's DNA, (housed again within the nucleus.)
The invasion of something into the nucleus, (violating the membrane) and then again
even further into the DNA strands which have their own protective barrier inside of
the nucleus surely seems to be pretty darn invasive. Carcinogins have the ability
to do this relatively easily also. So, if I were a DNA I might consider that
humans are somewhat carcinoginistic.
On the flipside, how can we deny the medical benefits? Is it just agri GE that I'm
against? No, I think that profit based GE and commercially forced or rushed and
pushed through GE is bad, dangerous and that the Earth will keep her own, (even if
that means that we all have to leave with our mess before things start
Fresh-without us.)
Jen
Carmen
Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<ab5lh6$eom$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Hi Carmen
> > >
> > > White Earth is my wifes reservation.
> >
> > I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
> > machines there.
> > Been thinking of getting one of them lately
> >
> Hi Carmen
Hi Mikie
> They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
> talking about before.
They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
snip
> > I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> > open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ
and
> > a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling
?)
> > Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
> >
> Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
:)
Actually some would be surprised what and how much I read.
Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
growing and Political principles and policy.
> > Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> > I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> > of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of
'em.
> > :-D
> > carmen
> >
> >
> As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> the woods.
Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
Maori village. They did a little performance.
I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english ?
> I'm too old for that kind of thing anymore I'd rather sit back with a
> fishing rod and watch the birds, and waves.
:)
Carmen
Carmen
Its very sharp a bit strawlike in appearance
Carmen
According to the article as it is printed
"Two Californian companies now have patents on hybrid strains
and are working on male sterility in wild rice"
If the article is correct then it seems the aim is to
cause the male plant to be sterile,
then it will not be able to pollinate the female plant and no
longer set seed.
Well that is my understanding of what is printed,
I guess it depends how accurate their source of information is. I have been
searching the web to see whether there are any other sources which also
confirm the story but haven't found anything specific yet.
According to this website
http://www.css.orst.edu/crops/cereals/grains/wildrice.htm
wild rice cross pollinates quite readily in which case, it would likely be
susceptible to cross pollinating with hybrids and GE'd strains.
Carmen
Anuh1
writes:
>If the article is correct then it seems the aim is to
>cause the male plant to be sterile,
>then it will not be able to pollinate the female plant and no
>longer set seed.
>
>Well that is my understanding of what is printed,
>I guess it depends how accurate their source of information is. I have been
>searching the web to see whether there are any other sources which also
>confirm the story but haven't found anything specific yet.
>
>According to this website
>http://www.css.orst.edu/crops/cereals/grains/wildrice.htm
>wild rice cross pollinates quite readily in which case, it would likely be
>susceptible to cross pollinating with hybrids and GE'd strains.
Thanks for adding to the confusion! ;-D That was interesting, though.
Is wild rice a plant that produces TWO sexes on two plants, as does happen?
Anuh1
<theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
>The DNA is indeed a packet, (which is within and protected in the nucleus.)
>In GE the desired traits are extracted from one "Whiggyit's" DNA and
>inserted to grow rapidly in (say) a tumor.
What I was referring to was something I heard referred to in a TV program one
day about a packet of DNA that was NOT within the nucleus, but was just within
the cell. I was working and not listening closely but that caught my ear and I
listened for a short while. This DNA was separate from the other and that is
the DNA I was asking about.
I'm fairly aware of how the GE is done. When I was at the medical school, one
of the doctors was trying to attach (Measles?) virus to Interferon in order to
have the virus direct the Interferon directly to cancer tumor. I got a crash
course in basic genetics at that time. I don't know what the final result was
on that, but obviously it didn't work since there is no current cure for cancer
that I am aware of!
>On the flipside, how can we deny the medical benefits?
It depends on how you look at it, I think. Given the fact that we are rapidly
populating ourselves out of existence, it might be considered quite greedy to
look for medical benefits. Disease is one of the predators on mankind and it
may be the only thing that can keep us in check!
> I think that profit based GE and commercially forced or rushed and
>pushed through GE is bad, dangerous and that the Earth will keep her own,
>(even if
>that means that we all have to leave with our mess before things start
>Fresh-without us.)
I think if man continues, we are likely to end up destroying the earth. JMO of
course!
Anuh1
writes:
>> They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
>> talking about before.
>
>They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
>going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
They are out of sight around here. But Singer, some years back, started making
NEW treadle machines. I don't know where you could buy one now, but they had
far more features than the old ones. I never did get to try one out, though!
>When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
>heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
I learned to sew on a treadle when I was young (about 8). I sewed on the same
old machine until I was 20, when I bought a new, fancy electric machine. I
wanted to move "uptown" in my equipment and ended up hating it. It could do
things my treadle couldn't, but I realized after a few years that it also
rattled my nerves. The high buzz just cuts through my head! So I went back to
treadles.
My ex- was so enamored of these old machines that at one point, we had
collected 12 of them and had them sitting all over our house!
Jennifergiggle
Anuh1 wrote:
> In article <3CD88D52...@bigfoot.com>, Jennifergiggle
> <theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >
> >The DNA is indeed a packet, (which is within and protected in the nucleus.)
> >In GE the desired traits are extracted from one "Whiggyit's" DNA and
> >inserted to grow rapidly in (say) a tumor.
>
> What I was referring to was something I heard referred to in a TV program one
> day about a packet of DNA that was NOT within the nucleus, but was just within
> the cell. I was working and not listening closely but that caught my ear and I
> listened for a short while. This DNA was separate from the other and that is
> the DNA I was asking about.
Oh yes, that is right. Now you've got me wondering where I heard about that too.
:)
Jen
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<ab5lh6$eom$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > >
>
> Hi Mikie
>
> > They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
> > talking about before.
>
> They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
> going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
>
> When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
> heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
Many of our reservations have them. My brother converted one from our
Aunt to use a saw blade so he could use it like a jig saw. They still
have all the parts so they can put it back together if they wanted to.
> snip
> > > I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> > > open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ
> and
> > > a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling
> ?)
> > > Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
> > >
> > Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
>
> :)
> Actually some would be surprised what and how much I read.
>
> Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> growing and Political principles and policy.
I read mostly history or bio's.
>
> > > Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> > > I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> > > of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of
> 'em.
> > > :-D
> > > carmen
> > >
> > >
> > As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> > I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> > then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> > the woods.
>
> Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
> Maori village. They did a little performance.
>
> I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
> these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english ?
Yes they are still around, and going strong. I know many Nations are
teaching the languages now. It wasn't that long ago we couldn't speak
it anywhere but at home.
Mike
Mike
Hi Anuh
My wife still uses ours, and she has a new type that she use's too.
You can get a good beat going makes singing easyer while you work.
I remimber when the ice company came out and took the few ice box'es
that were out our way. We found many of them broken up on the side of
the road. Now they would get a mint for them.
Mike
Anuh1
<theg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>Oh yes, that is right. Now you've got me wondering where I heard about that
>too.
>:)
If you find out anything about how that works, let me know! ;-D
Anuh1
MikePu...@msn.com (Mike) writes:
>I remimber when the ice company came out and took the few ice box'es
>that were out our way. We found many of them broken up on the side of
>the road. Now they would get a mint for them.
Those also used to be quite useful for storage, so I don't know why they did
that! And yes, they would really have a fortunes worth if they had kept them!
John Blahna
> I can't speak for paddy grown rice in California, but the paddy grown rice
> grown in Arkansas is not at all related to wild rice, which is a different
> grass species.
no, this is called wild rice. it sorta looks like wild rice, but it's about
1/3 smaller than the natural stuff. It's processed color is nearly black and
it doesn't taste at all like the natural stuff...but perhaps I'm just
spoiled 80)
johnmohdom
Mike
Hi John
Your not spoiled it just does taste better. You brought up a good
point before, and I was wondering how many types of plants that our
people had eaten that are no longer around or not eaten now. Does
anyone know anything on this line.
Mike
wolvbtch
earth will give a sigh of relief, wait a few beats of her heart, and start anew...
an...@aol.com (Anuh1) wrote in message news:<20020508133002...@mb-mv.aol.com>...
snipped
Anuh1
(wolvbtch) writes:
I hope you are right. Man has this horrible way to managing to destroy
everything he touches, if he isn't brought down first!
John Blahna
>> I was thinking more along the lines of "someday the white man will
realize what
> he hath wroth" and at that time, if there is none of the original seed
still
> around, you won't be able to dig out the contaminated plants and reseed.
good point, I hadn't thought of that. I have not heard of anyone doing that.
> I know. I was up there years ago and was amazed at the stands of wild
rice
> along the lake edges!
yes, I wonder how many folks motor along such stretches without knowing what
those 'weeds sticking out of the water' are. ...same with sweetgrass etc.
> We can only speculate. IF, for example, the rice turned out to be harmful
(I
> don't trust scientists to have the faintest idea what they are doing),
I have a slightly higher opinion of scientists...but when you bring money
into the equasion (which is what this GE stuff is all about) then I tend to
become distrustful of just about anyone. 80(
> If it is okay, tastes the same and has no
> ill effects that we can't live with, it still has replaced a variety that
no
> longer would exist. That is rather a tough thing to face!
unfortunately some people see no value in that diversity...exactly why we
had such things as the potato famine.
johnmohdom
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
>"Anuh1" <an...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20020507203712...@mb-fp.aol.com...
>>> I was thinking more along the lines of "someday the white man will
>realize what
>> he hath wroth" and at that time, if there is none of the original seed
>still
>> around, you won't be able to dig out the contaminated plants and reseed.
>
>good point, I hadn't thought of that. I have not heard of anyone doing that.
The anthros periodically come across a stash of seed packed away somewhere that
is still viable. Corn seed has a looooooonnnnnggggg shelf life! There are
seed banks where they are collecting heirloom seeds because often these very
same seeds produce a product that is MUCH better tasting than the newer,
hybridized items! It's worth trying, at least, I would think.
>yes, I wonder how many folks motor along such stretches without knowing what
>those 'weeds sticking out of the water' are. ...same with sweetgrass etc.
I would love to get a small patch of sweetgrass started down here! We have
Sweet Woodruff, which smells nearly identical when dried, but more so! But so
far, I haven't found any sweetgrass.
>> We can only speculate. IF, for example, the rice turned out to be harmful
>>(I don't trust scientists to have the faintest idea what they are doing),
>
>I have a slightly higher opinion of scientists...
You probably haven't had nearly the same experiences with them that I have!
>but when you bring money
>into the equasion (which is what this GE stuff is all about) then I tend to
>become distrustful of just about anyone. 80(
That only makes it worse. If they were doing it just to see what would happen,
I would worry less - not MUCH less, but a little less!
>> If it is okay, tastes the same and has no
>> ill effects that we can't live with, it still has replaced a variety that
>no
>> longer would exist. That is rather a tough thing to face!
>
>unfortunately some people see no value in that diversity...exactly why we
>had such things as the potato famine.
Which is part of what bothers me! I've also lived through seeing a number of
"wonder products" turn out to be carcinogenic, allergenic, etc. The minute we
start changing things, we put ourselves in jeopardy, not to mention the rest of
the creation!
Carmen
No problem
> Is wild rice a plant that produces TWO sexes on two plants, as does
happen?
Don't know, now you are getting technical,
adding to the confusion.
I haven't studied wild rice enough to know about
such technicalities.
Carmen
Carmen
> In article <abb2vd$q28$1...@news.wave.co.nz>, "Carmen"
<Carm...@hotmail.com>
> writes:
>
> >> They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
> >> talking about before.
> >
> >They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
> >going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
>
> They are out of sight around here. But Singer, some years back, started
making
> NEW treadle machines. I don't know where you could buy one now, but they
had
> far more features than the old ones. I never did get to try one out,
though!
As far as I know they didn't come out here
> >When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
> >heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
>
> I learned to sew on a treadle when I was young (about 8). I sewed on the
same
> old machine until I was 20, when I bought a new, fancy electric machine.
I
> wanted to move "uptown" in my equipment and ended up hating it. It could
do
> things my treadle couldn't, but I realized after a few years that it also
> rattled my nerves. The high buzz just cuts through my head! So I went
back to
> treadles.
Electric are fast tho'
can make a garment in one afternoon.
> My ex- was so enamored of these old machines that at one point, we had
> collected 12 of them and had them sitting all over our house!
>
Some of them are really beautifully carved
12 is rather more than any household could use tho'
Carmen
Don't know about ice boxes, but I like old gramaphones, we saw a real beaut
in a second hand shop recently, perfect working order. It had a cabinet on
the bottom and the speaker was built inside the cabinet, no volume control
but the shop owner showed us how to moderate the volume by opening and
closing the door.
She explained that they used to wedge a sock in the door so they could get
the pitch just right and the door wouldn't close completely.
She said that is where the saying
"put a sock in it" came from
LOL
cute eh !!
Carmen
Carmen
> > Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> > growing and Political principles and policy.
>
> I read mostly history or bio's.
bio's I assume to be biographys ?
From what I have seen on the web,
people in the US seem to be big on biographys
and especially writing their biographys.
I guess because over there to speak about oneself is encouraged and people
maybe
enjoy talking and writing about
themselves, achievements, hardships,
fame, good/bad fortunes,
brightest moments and darkest hours.
Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
well not on writing them anyway.
Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
about themselves.
It's called a "tall Poppy" syndrome.
snip
> > > As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> > > I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> > > then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> > > the woods.
> >
> > Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
> > Maori village. They did a little performance.
> >
> > I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
> > these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english
?
>
> Yes they are still around, and going strong. I know many Nations are
> teaching the languages now. It wasn't that long ago we couldn't speak
> it anywhere but at home.
Similar with English being the main language here,
imaginative writing, song, poetry etc.,
*grows* any language.
I'll commit your interest in Bio's to memory
If I ever get around to writing one up,
I'll put you on top of my list for emailing.
Carmen
ggull
>
> bio's I assume to be biographys ?
> From what I have seen on the web,
> people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> and especially writing their biographys.
>
> I guess because over there to speak about oneself is encouraged and people
> maybe
> enjoy talking and writing about
> themselves, achievements, hardships,
> fame, good/bad fortunes,
> brightest moments and darkest hours.
>
> Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> well not on writing them anyway.
> Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> about themselves.
Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ? Not that that
ever seems to stop self-promoters.
But really, I think Mike is not talking about the "starlet tells all"
AUTObiographies (well, probably ghostwritten) or "I'm an ex-president,
ex-CEO, etc and want to cash in" autobios that appear on the best seller
lists, but biographies (whether auto or not) of genuine historical figures
or those otherwise of more than tawdry interest. For example, the recent
(bestseller) bio of John Adams, one of the US's "Founding Fathers", Mari
Sandoz's bio of Crazy Horse, or "Mankiller", about WIlma[?] Mankiller, a
Cherokee leader.
Basically, the kind of bios I imagine Mike is talking about can be used as
another way to history or socio/anthropological understanding of a culture.
To really tell a person's life, you must explicate the society and times in
which they live, and the historical events in which they are involved if
they are that kind of figure. There are plenty of biographies, I can think
of few autobios, of Native Americans, some of them historical figures and
some seemingly told more to tell about the culture through an intersting and
individualized tale (I have seen a book of short bios of NA elders, for
instance). There is a trend in historical research and writing these past
several decades of looking not just at the grand progressions of the
generals and leaders and armies, but the lives of the everyday people, and
such bios can be seen as part of that trend.
However self-serving, autobios of major recent political figures are
valuable historical documents when read with a grain of salt -- think Nixon,
Kissinger, MacNamara. [To be honest I find these ones bore me to tears, and
cannot get through them.]
Or who knows, maybe Mike does dote on Heidi Fleiss tell-alls :-).
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message snip
>
> > > Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> > > growing and Political principles and policy.
> >
> > I read mostly history or bio's.
>
> bio's I assume to be biographys ?
> From what I have seen on the web,
> people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> and especially writing their biographys.
>
Hi Carmen
Most of the biographys or bios I read are of people that died long
ago, and dictated or wrote themselfs before they died. Right now it's
one by a Salish man from about 1828. Many of these books or sometimes
just pages. Most can be found with a search at a university. I have
never seen any bio writen by an Native person sold in a book store,
I'm not say there are none just never seen any and I have asked many
of them. Many are very rare one dictated by Lozen was destroyed by the
Church. There are no copies. This happened to most of them and esp..
if it was a woman.
Mike
Anuh1
writes:
>
>Electric are fast tho'
>can make a garment in one afternoon.
I don't really find them any faster for me to use than a treadle. However, I'm
sure they would be in a production environment. I always spent a great deal of
time tailoring my clothes - and that takes a lot of handwork!
>> My ex- was so enamored of these old machines that at one point, we had
>> collected 12 of them and had them sitting all over our house!
>>
>Some of them are really beautifully carved
>12 is rather more than any household could use tho'
Yes, they are beautifully carved and yes, it was far more than we needed or
could display effectively. My ex- never did anything by halves, however! ;-D
Jane Robertson
>
> I don't know what the final result was
> on that, but obviously it didn't work since there is no current
cure for cancer
> that I am aware of!
>
Funny you said that! Just the other day I was reading an article
about a "inoculation" for a particular type of cancer. They
pointed out that unlike a typical inoculation, this one was *not*
a preventative measure. One had to be diagnosed with the target
type of cancer. The vaccination was essentially a cure for this
type of cancer. It is still in FDA human trials (I believe), but
the article was discussing its success rate in otherwise "fatal"
cases.
One point to make is that cancer is not *a* disease, but rather a
generic label for a multitude of related/similar diseases. I
also use the term disease lightly since there are many in the
medical research community who believe strongly (and have shown
some good merit for) a viral component to many types of cancer.
And of course, we are all already aware of dietary issues that
contribute, lifestyle issues that contribute, and genetic
predisposition issues.
JRWolf
Carmen
ggull <ggul...@SPAMrcn.com> wrote in message
news:abgk62$ld$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...snip
> > Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> > well not on writing them anyway.
> > Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> > about themselves.
>
> Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ?
More like Kiwis just don't know how to brag
and we sometimes laugh and look at each other when we see other people doing
it.
> Not that that
> ever seems to stop self-promoters.
yep
> But really, I think Mike is not talking about the "starlet tells all"
> AUTObiographies (well, probably ghostwritten) or "I'm an ex-president,
> ex-CEO, etc and want to cash in" autobios that appear on the best seller
> lists, but biographies (whether auto or not) of genuine historical figures
> or those otherwise of more than tawdry interest. For example, the recent
> (bestseller) bio of John Adams, one of the US's "Founding Fathers", Mari
> Sandoz's bio of Crazy Horse, or "Mankiller", about WIlma[?] Mankiller, a
> Cherokee leader.
Thanks for your explanation.
I daresay some of those references will come my way at some stage.
I looked up "Heidi Fleiss" to see who/what she is
apparently a "Hollywood Madam", never heard of her.
I'm shooting thru for at least a few days.
Got some things to do etc.
Noho ora mai,
Naku noa
Carmen
Carmen
> > From what I have seen on the web,
> > people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> > and especially writing their biographys.
> >
>
> Hi Carmen
>
> Most of the biographys or bios I read are of people that died long
> ago, and dictated or wrote themselfs before they died. Right now it's
> one by a Salish man from about 1828. Many of these books or sometimes
> just pages. Most can be found with a search at a university. I have
> never seen any bio writen by an Native person sold in a book store,
> I'm not say there are none just never seen any and I have asked many
> of them. Many are very rare one dictated by Lozen was destroyed by the
> Church. There are no copies. This happened to most of them and esp..
> if it was a woman.
>
> Mike
>
Thanks for your explanation Mike.
Those type are good "bios".
I read Russell Means bio
just happened to notice it on a bookshelf recently,
that was a good one, he is a captivating writer.
That's where I first saw Carter Camp's 70's photo
and discovered he is a famous person.
Well I'm shooting thru for a while.
Got some things stacking up so ng's in general aren't
as captivating at the moment.
ggull
> > > Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> > > well not on writing them anyway.
> > > Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> > > about themselves.
> >
> > Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ?
>
> More like Kiwis just don't know how to brag
> and we sometimes laugh and look at each other when we see other people
doing
> it.
Semi-seriously, I was thinking that New Zealand is less on the center stage
of world history (personally, I'd find that refreshing if I lived there),
and your politics is probably less contentious simply because there are
fewer ethnic groups and major industries, etc. And maybe y'all are nicer
folks. <enter tweak mode> Also, how much can there be to say about sheep?
<exit tweak mode>
And yes, self-promotion or self-puffery or assertiveness does seem to be a
characteristic of the majoritarian culture here in the US. I won't get into
historical roots, etc., but it's also a problem for the cultures and
individuals who are not that way.
> I looked up "Heidi Fleiss" to see who/what she is
> apparently a "Hollywood Madam", never heard of her.
Hard to avoid on this side of the big puddle. Ran a very expensive
call-girl ring (thousands of dollars a shot) with some very famous clients.
Classic scandal material.
ggull
John Blahna <johnm...@mindspring.com> wrote i
> > No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will
> indeed
> > hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE
and
> non
> > is indeed GE.)
>
> doesn't that defeat the purpose of both GE and hybridizing? apparently a
> key will be to keep the different types from crossing.
I am not making this up, though I cannot vouch for its accuracy, but I have
heard of cases where GE crops have "forcefully hybridized" with neighboring
crops, effectively polluting them ... but the GE manufacturer has somehow
found out and claimed that the farmer trying to be natural has "stolen"
those genes and owes them money for them! Sounds bizarre enough to be
true.
ggull
Anuh1 <an...@aol.com> wrote
> .... as the day is bound to come when
> people get their heads out of their asses and realize what is being done
to our
> food supplies!
Dear Anuh -- I think the wild rice you've been eating has hybridized for
ergot, and you're hallucinating. Hope you're right, though. "Visualize
world sanity".
-gg
John Blahna
"ggull" <ggul...@SPAMrcn.com> wrote in message
.. but the GE manufacturer has somehow
> found out and claimed that the farmer trying to be natural has "stolen"
> those genes and owes them money for them! Sounds bizarre enough to be
> true.
bizarre perhaps, but nothing is unexpected to me when money enters the
equasion in this country!
johnmohdom
Anuh1
writes:
>I am not making this up, though I cannot vouch for its accuracy, but I have
>heard of cases where GE crops have "forcefully hybridized" with neighboring
>crops, effectively polluting them ... but the GE manufacturer has somehow
>found out and claimed that the farmer trying to be natural has "stolen"
>those genes and owes them money for them! Sounds bizarre enough to be
>true.
There was a story recently that some of the GE corns have polluted the old
strains in Mexico to the point where they are in danger of being lost forever!
Anuh1
writes:
You honestly think I can AFFORD wild rice? Boy, I must be richer than I
thought! ;-D
Anuh1
Robertson" <lafn...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>One point to make is that cancer is not *a* disease, but rather a
>generic label for a multitude of related/similar diseases. I
>also use the term disease lightly since there are many in the
>medical research community who believe strongly (and have shown
>some good merit for) a viral component to many types of cancer.
>And of course, we are all already aware of dietary issues that
>contribute, lifestyle issues that contribute, and genetic
>predisposition issues.
You are right, of course. But as a syndrome, it does pretty much represent a
single uncontrolled growth of sorts! ;-D
ggull
Anuh1 <an...@aol.com> wrote
>
> There was a story recently that some of the GE corns have polluted the old
> strains in Mexico to the point where they are in danger of being lost
forever!
The old variety and old strains are being lost for lots of reasons, GE being
only a small part (so far!) of the story. A fairly recent Oaxacan cookbook
(I'm blanking on the author right now) was describing the many varieties of
chilis traditionally used, then commented that many are no longer being
grown. A function, aparently, of how everything is becoming blended and
commodified, "efficiency" driving out quality.
Another example -- the big apple grower, who has to bring in workers, often
migrants, to pick his crop, wants all the fruit ripe at the same time so it
only has to be picked once. So these are the varieties developed, at the
expense of flavor and consistency (ever noticed how hard it is to get a
really crisp apple these days?). The small grower, who has to depend on hsi
own labor, or the backyard grower who just wants some apples to eat, wants
just the opposite, and extended picking season. But there's not much profit
in developing trees for these folk.
John Blahna
> You honestly think I can AFFORD wild rice? Boy, I must be richer than I
> thought! ;-D
that's a good point (thank goodess for gifting !). I think on the open
market up here, hand-finished natural wild rice is over $5 a pound.
johnmohdom
John Blahna
"ggull" <ggul...@SPAMrcn.com> wrote in message
> The old variety and old strains are being lost for lots of reasons, GE
being
> only a small part (so far!) of the story.
those majik science guys in action! 80(
johnmohdom
Anuh1
<johnm...@mindspring.com> writes:
I don't even SEE it in the markets around here. We do get a product that calls
itself "Harvest Rice", which is supposed to CONTAIN wild rice, but so far, I
can about count the grains I see on one hand, per serving! ;-D It DOES give
it a bit of wild rice flavor, though!
Anuh1
writes:
>The old variety and old strains are being lost for lots of reasons, GE being
>only a small part (so far!) of the story. A fairly recent Oaxacan cookbook
>(I'm blanking on the author right now) was describing the many varieties of
>chilis traditionally used, then commented that many are no longer being
>grown. A function, aparently, of how everything is becoming blended and
>commodified, "efficiency" driving out quality.
>
>Another example -- the big apple grower, who has to bring in workers, often
>migrants, to pick his crop, wants all the fruit ripe at the same time so it
>only has to be picked once. So these are the varieties developed, at the
>expense of flavor and consistency (ever noticed how hard it is to get a
>really crisp apple these days?). The small grower, who has to depend on hsi
>own labor, or the backyard grower who just wants some apples to eat, wants
>just the opposite, and extended picking season. But there's not much profit
>in developing trees for these folk.
>
The story I saw was on TV and was talking about the villages up in the
mountains where they still save their own seed and plant it. Up there, the GE
strains have apparently all but wiped out a bunch of varieties.
Suzan
(pronounced nez purse) at a do up at Fort Vancouver, Washington two
weeks ago. I had just finished his bio "A Little Bit of Wisdom"on the
urging of my basketweaving teacher, Pat Coutney Gold, who teaches
Wasco Sally Bag Making. Mr. Axtell is commemorating places of Nez
Pierce battles and has recently added Fort Vancouver to the trail he
travels every year.
After Chief Joseph was defeated some of the people who were trying to
avoid the war by going on a buffalo hunt got caught by the US Army
soldiers and marched cruelly across Oregon on foot. They (about 35
people all ages) were kept in the fort for a year. A little boy died
and the memorial was to tell about and pray for the little one and the
circumstances and all. Part of the event had two lads on good-looking
horses circle around the spectators. Those Appaloosa were killed off
by the army but maybe some were spared. It was heart breaking to think
of all that went on not too many years ago.
Mike Cleven
> I'm interested in knowing native definitions of totem and totemic spirit,
> which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
> consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
>
> When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
> I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
> species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
> Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
> is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
> consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
> species and not another species.
>
> I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
> or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
> the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
> their spirits or energy bodies).
>
> For more discussion on this see the webpage
> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
> which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
All of which is more evidence that they _do_ grow good weed in
Newfoundland....
> .
>
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
> I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
> sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
> thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
> eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
> end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
>
> But I am non-native and have had more celtic influences, and I guess
> I could be called a new ager since I have invented some of my
> belief system. But I intend to learn more of the traditions of
> this land though unfortunately the Beothucks are gone from here.
> But I hope to learn some from scholarly studies of the Beothuck
> and from the Mi'qmaq (sp?) and from British Columbia natives,
> especially the Musqueam who should own the land where I did my
> naked thorn hill climb.
Had to jump in here. "Naked thorn hill climb" in Musqueam territory.
What? - you climbed up from Wreck Beach via the blackberry bramble and
want to brag about it? What in heaven's name were you thinking of.
Where exactly was this - how do you know you were on Musqueam territory,
and not Kwantlen, Katzie, Kwekwetlem, Squamish or Tsawwassen? Musqueam
are pretty private about their traditions, by the way, despite being
encroached on all sides by the City of Vancouver; if you go spewing like
you are to one of their elders asking for spiritual enlightenment you're
likely to get chuckled out of the room.....
As for "totems" in BC, you're not going to find the kind of answers you
want to find. If you want to research totem _poles_ from BC, the best
place to start is a Nat'l Museum of Canada publication called "Totem
Poles" by Marius Barbeau which is a good starting-point. Otherwise look
for "Chiefly Feasts: the Enduring Kwakiutl Potlatch" from the American
Museum of Natural History....
--
Mike Cleven
http://www.cayoosh.net (Bridge River Lillooet history)
http://www.hiyu.net (Chinook Jargon phrasebook/history)
Wayne George
and your words are true...
The Smiling Crow :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF36A6...@bigfoot.com...
Mike
Suzan
Many of our people died in far off places some were able to pass on
their history or just their last words. I have a book thats just been
copied from the words of Three Eagles of the Nez Perces. " I went to
the mountain to fast. I built a small fire and watched the sun go
down. It was a dark and lonely night with the song of the wolfe as I
sat listening to the heart of the earth." he was speaking of his quest
of tiwatitmas. Many of these bios are still around but very hard to
find. The U of AZ has some as well as tapes of people speaking, and
even a few movies. We have to save and pass on all we know so the ones
that come next can pass on also.
MIke
David Dalton
>David Dalton wrote:
>> I'm interested in knowing native definitions of totem and totemic spirit,
>> which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
>> consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
>>
>> When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
>> I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
>> species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
>> Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
>> is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
>> consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
>> species and not another species.
I also now say that the significant sign from another species
could have occurred in the past to one of someone's ancestors, such
that the totem is a totem to the entire tribe. I don't have
any totems of that type though since my family does not have
a tradition of totems, at least in recent centuries. I
have yet to add this addition to my definition of totem
to my web page but will add it at next edit.
But I know you don't care about my definition of totem but
I would still like to know your definitions of totem. That
is so, if your definitions and mine are different, I should
stop using the term totem and use a different term.
I did get some advice on the definition of totem on
alt.religion.shamanism and soc.religion.paganism
and I have yet to check soc.religion.shamanism (I
have to check that via google).
>>
>> I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
>> or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
>> the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
>> their spirits or energy bodies).
>>
>> For more discussion on this see the webpage
>> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
>> which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
>> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
>All of which is more evidence that they _do_ grow good weed in
>Newfoundland....
Ha! Yes, I hear they do but I don't touch the stuff since a
full joint on Wreck Beach in May of 1992 triggered a bad
psychotic episode and in fact extended it past full moon
which wasn't the case for my other three waxing gibbous
moon trial periods, which ended at or before full moon
and which were followed 5.5 lunar months later by a
waning crecent high.
I was on my way to Wreck Beach but had stripped naked a few hundred
metres east of the first tower (going west) so I was west of Spanish
Banks and I guess I was on Tower Beach. I did a naked sundance and
sun stare, blacked out and fell into the water where I was standing
and then came to and left the beach and began climbing the steep
hillside. It got gradually thornier and thornier until it was
a mass of tangled thorny vines which I think were either blackberry
or similar to blackberry. I stopped and slept partway up in
a small clay hollow and otherwise
my entire weight, feet and hands were on the thorns and it was
sheer agony to move a foot or hand from one set of thorns to another
set of thorns. Near the top I had a vision of a glowing sky blue
rose, and that was about 4 a.m. two days before new moon. At the
top I had to do a "salmon leap" over a clump of thorns to avoid
catching my genitals on the thorns. Unusually I didn't bleed
much since the thorns were somewhat blunt, but it was painful.
This is described in more detail on my web page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
particularly on its subpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sundance.html
I guess the thorns took the place of the pain in the sundance ceremony
I'm pretty sure that area of Pacific Spirit Park is land that the
Musqueam should own although they don't yet (but they probably did
in the past). And I don't plan to go spewing to any elders
but would welcome information from them or you on past native historical,
living or mythological figures (such as the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth)
who had experiences similar to mine. I plan to do more reading
of native folklore. I would then put such figures on a par with
those such as Taliesin, Jesus, Krishna and the Buddha. Myself,
I am not on a par with them yet if ever, that will be determined
by my work (I plan to do some poetry when the highs resume,
hopefully later this year or early in 2003).
>As for "totems" in BC, you're not going to find the kind of answers you
>want to find. If you want to research totem _poles_ from BC, the best
>place to start is a Nat'l Museum of Canada publication called "Totem
>Poles" by Marius Barbeau which is a good starting-point. Otherwise look
>for "Chiefly Feasts: the Enduring Kwakiutl Potlatch" from the American
>Museum of Natural History....
Thanks Mike for those references and for your other comments.
David
ggull
David Dalton <dal...@nfld.com> wrote in message
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
Does this confuse anyone else? Salmon in Iowa? Lakota -- maybe this is
channelling the movie Smoke Signals, "Dances with salmon"?