Cherokee/Seminole
pi...@bhip.infi.net
Heard a lecture the other day. It was stated that it was the Creeks who
took the Trail of Tears.
It also was also stated that Oceola was a Creek.
I thought that it was the Cherokee who were forced along the Trail of
Tears and that Oceola was a Seminole.
Both me and the lecturer would correct if the Cherokee and Seminole were
part of a larger group called the Creek.
Needless to say that I am not very well read on this subject.
Would someone please straighten me out?
Thank you.
ovation
Many tribes have a "trail of tears" every tribe that was removed buried
their loved ones along the trail...
Christopher D. Kimball
Okay, let me clear this up since this is my area of expertise.
All the southeastern native people suffered a "Trail of Tears" in the
1830's because of andy jackasson's final solution known as the Indian
Removal Act of 1830. We have heard plenty of the Cherokee. I think
around 20,000 Creeks were removed from Georgia and Alabama in 1836. Of
the Seminoles, 4,200 were removed from Florida, and about 700 died along
the way. Smaller groups like Yuchi are usually grouped in the Creeks.
The Creeks and Cherokee are not the same. Different origins and
different languages. Majority of the Seminoles were separated from the
Creeks, but the Seminoles also took in refugees from other groups,
including escaped slaves, and were a mixture.
Osceola was from Peter McQueen's band, and was Red Stick Tallassee Creek.
He was born near Tallassee, Alabama near Montgomery around 1804. Thomas
Woodward who knew Peter McQueen and Osceola's family described in detail
where Osceola was born. Because of jackson's war against the Creek in
1813/14 and the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, Osceola's surviving relatives
fled into Florida and joined the Seminoles. They were captured &
released by jackson's Creek supporters under William MacIntosh in
1818/1st Seminole War. Osceola became well known as an outstanding
spokesman in the early 1830's and main resistance leader against removal.
He was not a chief, but reknowned warrior. Yes he was Creek, but 100%
Seminole.
Now I will retreat back to obscurity...
ovation
All the southeastern native people suffered a "Trail of Tears" in the
1830's because of andy jackasson's final solution known as the Indian
Removal Act of 1830.
So Mr Expert... when did the great Shawnee Nation become a "southeastern
tribe"?
Oh BTW.... Back when Andrew Jackson was a young cadet in school, there was
his very first known panting done of him on glass... long ago during this
time, his family and the white in my family were friends... and it is in my
family that this first painting of Jackson belongs too... I am sure he just
rolls over in his grave knowing that Indians have ahold of him now...
Christopher D. Kimball
ovation wrote:
>
> All the southeastern native people suffered a "Trail of Tears" in the
> 1830's because of andy jackasson's final solution known as the Indian
> Removal Act of 1830.
>
> So Mr Expert... when did the great Shawnee Nation become a "southeastern
> tribe"?
I tried to be brief as possible. I did not say the removal was exclusive
to the southeastern tribes and nobody else. The original post asked
about Cherokee, Creeks, and Seminoles, so that was what I was responding
to that.
There were several Shawnee towns along the Savannah River in Georgia &
South Carolina that were adopted into the Creek Confederacy. Tecumseh's
mother was from one of these towns.
It is because of people who over-react to any post I make, that I waste
my time posting any information on these newsgroups. My perspectives and
focus will be different than other people. If you want to post
information that you thought was left out, then fine. No need to jump on
my case.
Thunder Voice
Christopher D. Kimball wrote:
> pi...@bhip.infi.net wrote:
> >
> > Heard a lecture the other day. It was stated that it was the Creeks who
> > took the Trail of Tears.
> >
> > It also was also stated that Oceola was a Creek.
> >
> > I thought that it was the Cherokee who were forced along the Trail of
> > Tears and that Oceola was a Seminole.
> >
> > Both me and the lecturer would correct if the Cherokee and Seminole were
> > part of a larger group called the Creek.
> >
> > Needless to say that I am not very well read on this subject.
> >
> > Would someone please straighten me out?
> >
> > Thank you.
>
> Okay, let me clear this up since this is my area of expertise.
>
> All the southeastern native people suffered a "Trail of Tears" in the
> 1830's because of andy jackasson's final solution known as the Indian
> Removal Act of 1830. We have heard plenty of the Cherokee.
The Potawatomi were also marched from the Great Lakes region to the Kansas
area. Yes, they were also sent out there by train but they had thier own
trail of tears.
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AIMAZ
>The Potawatomi were also marched from the Great Lakes region to the Kansas
>area. Yes, they were also sent out there by train but they had thier own
>trail of tears.
Also, the Dine' had the forced march to Bosque Redondo, The Cheyenne up
North...of course that was more of a "haulin' ass" kind of movement...seems
like every Nation had a "trail of tears" forced from one area to another. It's
the M.O. of the colonizers.
In Struggle,
Andy Mader
American Indian Movement
"The American Indian Movement was dedicated to resolve, change and educate
america out of its ignorance." -- Floyd "Red Crow" Westerman
Apple10
>Heard a lecture the other day. It was stated that it was the Creeks who
>took the Trail of Tears.
>
>
Addressing only a part of your posting. The term "Trail of Tears" is applied
in the white press (and in some of our Native American works as well) only to
the forced Cherokee migration. In fact, each Nation had it's own time of
trial. The Creek were carried west by the government as prisoners in chains
shortly before the Cherokee were moved. According to Ehler' s "Trail of
Tears", the Cherokee leaders were shown the barrels of shackles the Creek had
worn as part of the government's efforts to persuade the Cherokee to move
"voluntarily"
Some in the Native American community use the term Trail of Tears for all of
the Nation's stories not just the Cherokee's but the term is popularly used for
the 1838-39 forced migration that killed a third of the Cherokee people.
>Both me and the lecturer would correct if the Cherokee and Seminole were
>part of a larger group called the Creek.
The Creek are part of a different linguistic group and cultural heritage from
the Cherokee who are in the same linguistic group as the Iroquois. The Creek
were traditional enemies of the Cherokee due to competition for some of the
same land.
(For an interesting history lesson on this---go to the library and look up the
Battle of Horseshoe Bend or read up about the Red Sticks)
To avoid the possibility of FLAMES---Let me state that I am Cherokee, Irish,
English, Ojibway and Mohawk in descent and proud of all of them.
Aimfl
>Apple10 wrote:
>the Cherokee who are in the same linguistic group as the Iroquois.
Try getting a Tsalagi and a Kahnawake Haudenosaunee to agree on this and
understand even a small protion of each others language. Just cause a grave
robber with a degree (anthropologist) wrote it in a book doesn't make it so.
Sheridan Murphy
ALL MUST RESIST SO THAT NONE ARE LEFT BEHIND
Conway Caine
> >the Cherokee who are in the same linguistic group as the Iroquois.
>
> Try getting a Tsalagi and a Kahnawake Haudenosaunee to agree on this and
> understand even a small protion of each others language. Just cause a grave
> robber with a degree (anthropologist) wrote it in a book doesn't make it so.
>
raided each other for untold decades with many captives (read "Slaves")
taken by both sides. Eventually, the Clan Mothers of the Confederacy
asked the obvious question "Why do we war against our Kin?" The elders
thought this over and decided to send a peace party to the Cherokee
nation to put an end to the raiding. This was done and a delegation
arrived at Telaqah (in Tennessee) bearing a Peace Belt. They were almost
done in by the young men but were saved when older and wiser heads
intervened. Peace was established and the Peace Belt became a cherished
momento of the Cherokee Nation that went west with the People. It was
destroyed when, I think, the Courthouse in Taleqah, Oklahoma burned
down.
son...@jaguarsystems.com
In article <19980221130...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
app...@aol.com (Apple10) wrote:
> >Both me and the lecturer would correct if the Cherokee and Seminole were
> >part of a larger group called the Creek.
> The Creek are part of a different linguistic group and cultural heritage from
> the Cherokee who are in the same linguistic group as the Iroquois. The Creek
> were traditional enemies of the Cherokee due to competition for some of the
> same land.
Speaking from the viewpoint of a linguist (hard to do since I'm not one, but
writers are allowed to become anyone they want to when they so choose), you
are partly correct here. Linguists have divided the entire North American
continent (including Mexico) into six superfamilies; and, sure enough, the
Cherokees and the Iroquois are in the same superfamily. To give this a sense
of perspective, however, these are the same linguists that have placed all
the languages of Europe and most of the languages of the Indian subcontinent
into one superfamily, the Indo-European family, divided into three major
branches: Balto-Slavic, Germanic, and Romance. Both divisions have about
equal validity when it comes to folks speaking one language understanding
folks speaking another.
> (For an interesting history lesson on this---go to the library and look up the
> Battle of Horseshoe Bend or read up about the Red Sticks)
> To avoid the possibility of FLAMES---Let me state that I am Cherokee, Irish,
> English, Ojibway and Mohawk in descent and proud of all of them.
I don't approve of flaming people. So I hope no-one flames you.
Disagreements are a whole different ballgame, however.
Sondra Ball
http://www.jaguarsystems.com/sondra/
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Tenkiller
Just for the record, Sheridan, the Cherokee and Mohawk languages are more
similar than you may think.
And, as an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, I can tell you
that I've heard more than one knowledgable tribal historian make reference to
the flight of Cherokee people from the Iroqouian League many generations ago.
Jason
TsalagiTx
siyo and howdy from houston :)
here's an interesting side issue that fits in with this discussion.
it's a question that came up from some of my white friends. i am cherokee by
enrollment and by the fact that was the way i was raised. my ancestors escaped
the cherokee trail where we cried and moved to a small rural area in north
florida in the late 1830s. don't know why they thought it would be safer
there. i'm not that old :)
my great grandma was seminole, i'm not sure if she was full or half. don't
have any records, just family history. the cherokee came from my great
granddad. why we kept the cherokee ways alive i have not idea. hmm..
anyway, finally my question. a friend of mine who has some interest in indian
history asked me if i why i don't call myslef a seminole instead of cherokee.
other than cherokee enrollment that is. he said the seminole, who were mainly
creed descent, but did include other peoples, as you stated blacks and other
natives that moved to the area. i just said i was raised with cherokee
traditions and that's what i've always known myself as.
i'm just wondering what someone more knowledgeable than me and my 25 years has
to say about it. should i consider being seminole or should i stand my
ground. really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, just an
interesting point that has stuck in my mind and i don't have an anwer for.
wado in advance for any thoughts anyone has on the subject
Tsulehisanvhi - mike
TsalagiTx
yup. almost all first nations had a trail of tears. the term is usually thought
of in context with my people, tsalagi/cherokee, but almost every nation had one
at one time or the other.
the cherokee cultural society in houston puts on an annual event dealing with
this. it's held in early march since that's when the cherokee trail of tears
was generally brought to a close.
even though it's held at this time and is put on by a cherokee culture group,
we call it Red Nations Remembering. we put it on, actually this is only our
second, to call attention of the public that ALL first nations had trails of
tears and were forcibly ripped from our traditional homes by the us govt and
greed people who wanted more land. not just cherokees, but seminoles, hopi,
dinee, apache, and many many others. and hearing about what is happening
particualary in hopi and dinee country, it still hasn't stopped.....
just goes to show that there are people about that are hoping to educate the
population at large about the histories of all indian peoples and the fact that
many are still in danger of being relocated at the us govts whim.
when will this stop!!!!!?