White Artist/ NWC Style - Problem?
Catherine Shewchuk
This has been nagging me for a while. I am an artist, and for a number
of years have been producing small works in the style of Northwest
Coast Original art (Haida, Kwakiulth, K'San etc), for my own pleasure.
Last year, I took a sample of my work to a gallery in Toronto, to get an
opinion. While they admired my work, they also asked me if I was at all
of Native ancestry. When I said no, they told me outright that although
my work was very good, I could not sell it even if I wanted to, since it
isn't considered authentic, and I should pursue something else. (My
sketches of masks at the Canadian Museum of Civilisation were, on the
other hand, highly saleable.) Needless to say, I was deflated.
My question is "why?" Why can contemporary Native artists work in the
style of Western artists, and I cannot work in the style of the NWC?
Why is it okay for me to sketch NWC art, and not to produce the real
thing?
I welcome comments and suggestions :) My e-mail is
cshe...@chat.carleton.ca
Cheers! Catherine
jeanine r pinkney
for gifts. I'm pretty sure (somoene correct me if I'm wrong) that you can
even sell it if you want, just as long as you don't label it as native
art.
Only thing you can't do, is sell Native art and label it as such, unless
you're a registered member of a Federally Recognised tribe.
It may seem unfair. But the laws are there to protect Native artists from
unfair competition of imitators. Also to prevent Native art styles from
being corrupted by outside influences. Also to prevent defrauding the
public who may want Native art but may be tricked into buying something
that's not Native made. that's just the way it is.
Dennis McClain-Furmanski
<cshe...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote, in alt.native:
}Last year, I took a sample of my work to a gallery in Toronto, to get an
}opinion. While they admired my work, they also asked me if I was at all
}of Native ancestry. When I said no, they told me outright that although
}my work was very good, I could not sell it even if I wanted to, since it
}isn't considered authentic, and I should pursue something else.
They're wrong. You can create and sell anything you want as long as
you don't try to say it's Native art.
--
"Inside The Circle" WUVT 90.7 FM Blacksburg, VA Sat, 5:30 - 7:00 PM ET
Native American music, news and views for central Appalachia, and the
net via RealAudio. Catch our live RA feed at www.wuvt.vt.edu. Got songs,
drumming, stories, statements you want heard? Send tapes, I'll play them.
Floyd Davidson
Dennis McClain-Furmanski <Dyna...@Bellatlantic.Net> wrote:
>On 28 Mar 1999 23:37:09 GMT, Catherine Shewchuk
><cshe...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote, in alt.native:
>
>}Last year, I took a sample of my work to a gallery in Toronto, to get an
>}opinion. While they admired my work, they also asked me if I was at all
>}of Native ancestry. When I said no, they told me outright that although
>}my work was very good, I could not sell it even if I wanted to, since it
>}isn't considered authentic, and I should pursue something else.
>
>They're wrong. You can create and sell anything you want as long as
>you don't try to say it's Native art.
The reality is that you can create all you want, but selling it
depends on finding a market. It would appear that the original
advice being given was not that it is illegal to sell non-Native
created Native style art, but that nobody wants to buy it.
Floyd
--
Floyd L. Davidson fl...@ptialaska.net
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
Pictures of the North Slope at <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>
Catherine Shewchuk
my work off as Native - that would be wrong. I doubt it even fits one
particular style, as a lack of formal training in those styles has led
my work to a somewhat homogenous state. I have always been acutely aware
of the issue of authenticity. I know my work can never truly be
authentic, Native-wise, so my focus lies in creating work that is
authentic of/to me.
I am also well aware of the ties between NWC art and culture - the
danger, on my part, of treading into crest and totemic designs and not
even being aware of it (the lack of knowledge issue). I have talked with
a few scholars in this field, and while pretty much anything goes,
incorporation of family crests is a no-no.
I do know that there are non-native artists in the art market, who do
work similar to mine. Names escape me, but I *think* Vernon Stephens is
one (correct me if I'm wrong). His work includes prints of birds and
flowers - wholly in NWC style, but nevertheless a European subject
matter tradition (think Audubon).
Thank you for your insights - they help a lot!
Catherine
Catherine Shewchuk
>
> The reality is that you can create all you want, but selling it
> depends on finding a market. It would appear that the original
> advice being given was not that it is illegal to sell non-Native
> created Native style art, but that nobody wants to buy it.
Which is why the gallery offered to buy my sketches instead (I
respectfully declined). It appears the bulk of responses I have received
so far have encouraged me to pursue my work, but as you say, Floyd, no
one will buy it.
'S okay. The main reason for my visit to the gallery was curiousity. Was
my work on par with what was on the market? According to them, yes. Was
my credibility? No. Simple as that. Perfectly understandable, and
predictable even. I had a quiet chuckle afterwards - had I said yes, it
wouldn't have taken long for the lie to be revealed. "Shewchuk" isn't a
very common name in NWC art circles ;)
Thanks again! Catherine
Adam
>
> Only thing you can't do, is sell Native art and label it as such, unless
> you're a registered member of a Federally Recognised tribe.
>
I believe any tribe may also designate a non indian as an artisan of
indian crafts and they may sell that tribes craft work. Additionally for
the purposes of the Indian craft law state recognized tribal members may
also sell their craft work as native american art.
ddmc
<37000FFB...@chat.carleton.ca>...
Dear Catherine,
I have been reading this thread for awhile, and finally feel
compelled
to reply. Being aware of the issue primarily through having
owned my
own Native American gift shop for many years...
Many Native Americans feel that non-Indians who are
"copying" Native
American art are "bastardizing" it. They also feel that
non-Indians
selling it are impinging upon the financial gains of Native
Americans
in the field who produce authentic art.
Some say that you are not only taking money away from a
deserving
Native, but that your stylistic art is quite offensive to
Pacific
Northwest Indians since it is not authentic-- sort of like
producing
stick Indian figures. Also, as you have already pointed
out, you
would have to become a well-studied scholar of Pacific
Northwest art
in order not to impinge upon totemic or religious symbols
and styles.
I must support many other Indians in the
country in saying that I do not feel it is honorable to
produce such
art.
Good luck in your artistic endeavors. You obviously have
talent, and
other art style choices should be easy for you to
accomplish.
Wicakpi
jeanine r pinkney
Anyone want some?
Every now and then I do a giveaway. Now's as good a time as any. One of
our recent newcomers is having a health / personal crisis and someone
recommended that she get to the nearest women's center. So anyone who
wants one, please help at a women's center, whether by working there or
donating a few bucks or usable items or whatever, drop me a line and I'll
send you something.
Thanks --
Dee
Floyd Davidson <fl...@tanana.polarnet.com> wrote:
> In article <36fffd9e...@subnectivity.net>,
> Dennis McClain-Furmanski <Dyna...@Bellatlantic.Net> wrote:
> >On 28 Mar 1999 23:37:09 GMT, Catherine Shewchuk
> ><cshe...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote, in alt.native:
> >
> >}Last year, I took a sample of my work to a gallery in Toronto, to get an
> >}opinion. While they admired my work, they also asked me if I was at all
> >}of Native ancestry. When I said no, they told me outright that although
> >}my work was very good, I could not sell it even if I wanted to, since it
> >}isn't considered authentic, and I should pursue something else.
> >
> >They're wrong. You can create and sell anything you want as long as
> >you don't try to say it's Native art.
> The reality is that you can create all you want, but selling it
> depends on finding a market. It would appear that the original
> advice being given was not that it is illegal to sell non-Native
> created Native style art, but that nobody wants to buy it.
> Floyd
Randy R. Cox
<cshe...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>'S okay. The main reason for my visit to the gallery was curiousity. Was
>my work on par with what was on the market? According to them, yes. Was
>my credibility? No. Simple as that. Perfectly understandable, and
>predictable even. I had a quiet chuckle afterwards - had I said yes, it
>wouldn't have taken long for the lie to be revealed. "Shewchuk" isn't a
>very common name in NWC art circles ;)
>
>Thanks again! Catherine
I don't know the NWC art market, but I do know something about the
Southwest and Western art market--not a lot. My wife, Deborah Bell,
has achieved some fame and no wealth painting Western landscape.
Because cowboys and Indians as well as critters are a part of that
Western landscape they are often included. The Western art market
constantly demands sterotypes then goes to great length to deny that
it does so. There are paper-clad rules like it's okay for cowboys to
paint Indians, but indians should only paint Indians...unless the
Indians are also cowboys like my friend Harvey Ratty!!!
Your biggest problem is that you are a woman, but you can overcome
that. Unless you stumbled upon a rare gallery of integrity, I suspect
their talk is more talk than anything else. Most galleries want their
artist to bring a market with them for them to exploit. That's okay
as long as you know the truth from the verbage. Galleries are good at
managing an artist's market and leaving the creativity to the artist.
About credibility!!! If you are just painting pictures of Indian
designs, carvings, pottery or other works of Indian hands and minds
then you are really only providing a reproduction of another's image
in an original medium. In other words, if that image is the greater
part of the art of your piece then...well...you see what I mean.
You have to add something of your own emotion great enough to make a
statement that is true to your own cultural experience. If the
painting depicts your own discovery of Native beauty, or cultural
contrast, or whatever is True and from you then that would establish
its own credibility--probably never enough to equal the thousands of
years of culture that went into the icon your painting may center
around...but valid enough to warrant a true work of art.
Whatever you do, you don't want to just take advantage of the market
that may exist for Native Artists. It probably wouldn't work
commercially anyway, and it certainly wouldn't satisfy you artisticly.
Such junk as that only cheapens the market for the real thing and
ruins the limited income for genuine Native Artists.
On the other hand, consider the work of Howard Terpning. He has no
Indian blood that I know of, but he is so superior as an artist that
when he paints Indian subjects, even if they may be a bit sterotypical
at times, he in no way cheapens the genre, but so awakens interest
that the market for Native produced work is increased rather than
decreased.
Don't listen to me, though. We make thousands of dollars in the art
market every year...but we nearly always spend a few thousand more
than we make. Ha! And we are not alone!
Randy
Syd Shewchuk
I honestly have no intention of trying to sell my work - I am the first
to admit that I know next to nothing. All I do know is that the NWC
style flows easily from my mind to the paper. I do execute work in other
forms, but for me the images of NWC art are the most energizing. It's
hard to explain :)
You might be annoyed with my persistance, and I understand. But, I would
much rather accept suggestions on how to access the knowledge I need to
become less "bastardizing" and gain more accurate understanding of the
art I find so inspiring, than be shot down before taking off. On the
other hand, from your point of view, I have a lot less farther to fall.
I've put my query out there, and I'm surprised there aren't any
Ukranians howling at me for not taking up psanky (traditional egg
painting) ;) Thanks for being patient.
Catherine
____________
ddmc wrote:
>
> Many Native Americans feel that non-Indians who are
> "copying" Native
> American art are "bastardizing" it. They also feel that
> non-Indians
> selling it are impinging upon the financial gains of Native
> Americans
> in the field who produce authentic art.
>
> Some say that you are not only taking money away from a
> deserving
> Native, but that your stylistic art is quite offensive to
> Pacific
> Northwest Indians since it is not authentic-- sort of like
> producing
> stick Indian figures. Also, as you have already pointed
> out, you
> would have to become a well-studied scholar of Pacific
> Northwest art
jeanine r pinkney
don't let that get to me, I just give it away!
Dee
Catherine Shewchuk <cshe...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
> Floyd Davidson wrote:
> >
> > The reality is that you can create all you want, but selling it
> > depends on finding a market. It would appear that the original
> > advice being given was not that it is illegal to sell non-Native
> > created Native style art, but that nobody wants to buy it.
> Which is why the gallery offered to buy my sketches instead (I
> respectfully declined). It appears the bulk of responses I have received
> so far have encouraged me to pursue my work, but as you say, Floyd, no
> one will buy it.
> 'S okay. The main reason for my visit to the gallery was curiousity. Was
Floyd Davidson
jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org> wrote:
>I solve the problem by giving my artwork away!
>
>Anyone want some?
>
>Every now and then I do a giveaway. Now's as good a time as any. One of
>our recent newcomers is having a health / personal crisis and someone
>recommended that she get to the nearest women's center. So anyone who
>wants one, please help at a women's center, whether by working there or
>donating a few bucks or usable items or whatever, drop me a line and I'll
>send you something.
>
>Thanks --
>Dee
And I have a fun project to suggest for anyone who likes the
idea of "donating a few bucks". A couple weeks ago I was
visiting Point Lay, which is an Inupiat Eskimo village with a
population of a little less than 200 people. It is a really
pleasant place! Just before I got on the plane to leave, a
couple of ladies (who had been very helpful to me while I was
there) asked me if my company would donate to the Point Lay
Mother's Club, which is having a raffle to generate funds.
Wellll... big companies move slowly, and I do have a commitment
from AT&T to donate a calling card to them, but it might be
months before that happens.
In the meantime, they just touched my heart, and I sent them a
check of my own... and I sent a few of other people some $10
bills and asked them to send it too, but not to say anything
that would indicate where they heard about it from.
The idea is that it would be a lot of fun if little small
contributions just happened to show up from some really odd
places (yeah, its true... to us, you all live in odd places!).
Hence, if anyone would like to send couple bucks to them, it
would be really fun to think of how puzzled they would be,
wondering how the heck anyone in Timbucktu ever heard about
their raffle.
Point Lay Mother's Club
c/o Emily Pikok
Point Lay, Alaska 99759
Floyd
--
Floyd L. Davidson fl...@ptialaska.net
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
UPDATED Mar 20, North Slope images: <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>
lenapelady
Randy R. Cox <ra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
(clip for bandwidth)
ddmc
is to become a sincere, devoted scholar of the art-- which
could take years of institutional study, *and* years of
living among the very Native people whose art you wish to
emulate-- which obviously you are not prepared to do.
If you *were* able to do this, however, then upon
accomplishing this mighty feat you would undoubtedly decide
that you should not be copying *anything* from the People,
for you would have learned by that time that anything
"acceptable" to copy is still "bastardizing" the art.
What you are wanting to do, is rather like an individual
being enthralled with and wanting to do a Lakota high
ceremony, but not wanting to perform the actual ritual out
of respect to the Lakota people, and then going and creating
a "bastardized" form of it-- using pieces that are real, and
bits that are made up. Even if you did not use this pretend
ceremony for financial gain, and invited people for free, it
still wouldn't be right. See what I mean yet?
Wicakpi
Syd Shewchuk wrote in message
<37007B...@sympatico.ca>...
jeanine r pinkney
Distribution:
Once I was at a gallery showing for a man, a white man, who does Indian
art. I can't htink of his name right now but he's real famous. He does
really fine art and he is well known and well respected. I asked him how
he knows his stuff and he said, he grew up in a small town in the Dakotas
and many of his friends and neighbors were Indian. He grew up with them
and got along and they never thought of him as being anyting different
from them. So he learned all the stories and images and such, the same
way as everybody else learned them, by hearing them and living with them
all the time. And so it came out in his art.
Also, he has studied art for a long time, in college and from private
trainers and on his own. He definitely knows his stuff.
He has his own style, it is not the usual style that one things of as
"Indian Art". He uses a lot of bright colors and broad spaces and his
work if you look at it for a little while it comes alive before your eyes
and it starts moving and dancing.
So it is possible to be someon elike this. But it takes a speical person
and it takes many years.
Dee
reds...@wolfenet.com
yet. What a nice suggestion to make for all of us. There are so many in
need, and so many who have, sharing is a blessing. Thanks.
>
Jan Kinney
morning.
Best,
jk
jeanine r pinkney
I make please drop me a line email and I'll send you something.
Thanks --
Dee
Wayne George
Wayne George
Syd Shewchuk wrote:
> I'm not sure this is the same thing - Michelangelo, as an Italian, was
> descended from Romans, and was instrumental in reviving an artistic
> tradition which had been altered by centuries of Byzantine rule. So his
> work was very much part of his heritage. Also, the Romans conquered the
> Greeks, yet kept much of their artistic tradition - illusionistic
> painting and sculpture included. Europeans, however, did not adopt
> Native American artistic traditions.
>
> My art, unlike Michelangelo's, evokes the art of a culture very
> different from my own - with no connection other than my forebears moved
> here and planted themselves in the middle of it. It is not a revival of
> British landscape painting, or traditional Ukrainian psanky. As a white
> woman, I am criticised for copying and bastardising an art tradition
> which I couldn't possibly fully understand, having not lived it. (Then
> again, I have not lived an English or Ukrainian life either.)
>
> Yet, I also am encouraged to express myself as an artist, which I have
> always done. Except, for the past number of years, I find myself
> inexplicably drawn to the artistic traditions of the Northwest Coast. Is
> it just a phase? Like, "Oooh, this is neat, I think I'll try it!"? I
> don't know. I tried it, persisted and I believe I am good at it. But
> without the knowledge that goes with the forms, I can only depict what I
> know from a white p.o.v. - and that's why my work will be considered a
> bastard version.
>
> <naiive?>
>
> Why aren't the indigenous cultures of North America encouraging
> non-Native people to explore avenues of their culture? From one
> perspective, I would think that a NWC artist would be thrilled that
> someone like me is interested in learning his or her tradition. Yet,
> from another perspective, one white person doing NWC art displaces a NWC
> artist from his rightful tradition, right? Is it possible to compromise?
> Or am I doomed to be shut out?
>
> </naive?>
>
> Yours, Catherine
>
> ___________________
> Rick Kerchee wrote:
> >
> > This is always an interesting topic to me. While I realize the
> > absolute need for the Indian Arts and Crafts Act to protect Indian
> >people and consumers, at the same time I think about artists who have
> > taken the ideas of other cultures and made them their own art. For
> > instance, Michelangelo took the art of the of the Romans who took the > art from Greeks to make scultures like his "David". Yet no one ever > says, "Michelangelo stole Greek art!" Just a thought.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Wow, I did learn something in Art Appreciation!.
> >
Rick Kerchee
for the Indian Arts and Crafts Act to protect Indian people and consumers, at
the same time I think about artists who have taken the ideas of other cultures
and made them their own art. For instance, Michelangelo took the art of the of
the Romans who took the art from Greeks to make scultures like his "David".
Yet no one ever says, "Michelangelo stole Greek art!" Just a thought.
Rick
Wow, I did learn something in Art Appreciation!.
In article <7dtd0o$a...@junkie.gnofn.org>, jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org>
wrote:
Syd Shewchuk
<naiive?>
</naive?>
Yours, Catherine
___________________
jeanine r pinkney
Distribution:
Well the indigenous cultures of Europe were destroyed by the Roman
conquest (which had earlier absorbed Greek culture via conquest) and then
by the Christian conquest. So Michaelangelo as a European artist was only
following the default culture of his time and place. Besides the Roman and
Greek cultures were not threatened; instead they were the roots of the
dominant culture of Europe.
Sorry if I'm not expresing this too well, I hope ya'll get my drift.
Dee
Rick Kerchee <coma...@texas.net> wrote:
> This is always an interesting topic to me. While I realize the absolute need
> for the Indian Arts and Crafts Act to protect Indian people and consumers, at
> the same time I think about artists who have taken the ideas of other cultures
> and made them their own art. For instance, Michelangelo took the art of the of
> the Romans who took the art from Greeks to make scultures like his "David".
> Yet no one ever says, "Michelangelo stole Greek art!" Just a thought.
> Rick
> Wow, I did learn something in Art Appreciation!.
> In article <7dtd0o$a...@junkie.gnofn.org>, jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org>
jeanine r pinkney
Distribution:
So why not take the time to learn the right ways, even if it takes a very
long time? And while you're at it, why not look for ways to give
something back to the peoples whose art styles are calling you?
You might say, but it might take me 20 or 40 years to learn. So what?
How old will you be in 20 or 40 years if you don't do it? (more)
Syd Shewchuk <syd.sh...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Yet, I also am encouraged to express myself as an artist, which I have
> always done. Except, for the past number of years, I find myself
> inexplicably drawn to the artistic traditions of the Northwest Coast. Is
> it just a phase? Like, "Oooh, this is neat, I think I'll try it!"? I
> don't know. I tried it, persisted and I believe I am good at it. But
> without the knowledge that goes with the forms, I can only depict what I
> know from a white p.o.v. - and that's why my work will be considered a
> bastard version.
> <naiive?>
Yes, in many ways... look up "naive" in the dictionary and you'll see
that's a good word for what you're doing right now. But we all gotta
start somewhere.
> Why aren't the indigenous cultures of North America encouraging
> non-Native people to explore avenues of their culture? From one
> perspective, I would think that a NWC artist would be thrilled that
> someone like me is interested in learning his or her tradition. Yet,
> from another perspective, one white person doing NWC art displaces a NWC
> artist from his rightful tradition, right? Is it possible to compromise?
> Or am I doomed to be shut out?
Learn yes. If you take your time and pay your dues. And please please
please give something back!
Thanks --
Dee
> </naive?>
> Yours, Catherine
Randy R. Cox
<syd.sh...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>Why aren't the indigenous cultures of North America encouraging
>non-Native people to explore avenues of their culture? From one
>perspective, I would think that a NWC artist would be thrilled that
>someone like me is interested in learning his or her tradition. Yet,
>from another perspective, one white person doing NWC art displaces a NWC
>artist from his rightful tradition, right? Is it possible to compromise?
>Or am I doomed to be shut out?
>
Again I don't know NWC but Southwest somewhat. Many cheap and
virtually worthless copies of Southwest Native art can be purchased
for pennies. This stuff is made in sweat shops from third world
countries. It is like when a wonderfully worded phrase becomes a
cliche from over use and wrong use. It totally destroys the original
effect.
Think of it like writting a book. Mark Twain could really write. My
grandson in the second grade can look at a copy of Tom Sawyer and
write his own copy that is almost identical to Mark Twain...but that
is not good writting.
Now, if I, with a little more skill, took a copy of Tom Sawyer on my
computer, and went through it, I could change all the character names,
all the settings, all the dates. I could then rewrite certain
dramatic events changing the action but not the general idea. If I
did all these things, maybe I would have literature...maybe not.
Depends on how well I did it. If I did chose to do such a thing I
would have to give credit, of course, and the reader would require
that I do an extraordinary job or they would reject it.
As a writer it would probably be easier to just start from scratch
rather than try to meet those high standards.
Randy
Catherine Shewchuk
>
> So why not take the time to learn the right ways, even if it takes a > very long time? And while you're at it, why not look for ways to give
> something back to the peoples whose art styles are calling you?
I am taking the time - I'm only 24. It's difficult, when I only have
access to books, not people. Do you know any NWC artists who can help
me?
> You might say, but it might take me 20 or 40 years to learn. So what?
> How old will you be in 20 or 40 years if you don't do it? (more)
I don't expect to accomplish anything overnight. It would be kinda
spooky if I did :)
> Yes, in many ways... look up "naive" in the dictionary and you'll see
> that's a good word for what you're doing right now. But we all gotta
> start somewhere.
I've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain...
> Learn yes. If you take your time and pay your dues. And please
> please please give something back!
Would you like a sample of what I've done?
Catherine
Beadedweb2
>indian crafts and they may sell that tribes craft work. Additionally for
>the purposes of the Indian craft law state recognized tribal members may
>also sell their craft work as native
Hiya! Just tossing in a thought here... I haven't read the whole thread so I
bet what I say is redundant... but only SOME state tribes are recognized as
eligible here.... there seem to be a big 'upsurge' in recognizing tribes (good
for state economy) without verification of actual tribal-ness. (technical
stuff here, if anyone has q's please read up on the issues... I don't want to
debate them) ANYWAY, so the law says that the state has to recognize the tribe
as a TRIBE, and the tribe must be eligible for state tribal monies.... (monies
designated by the state to go specifically to Indian tribes, and other such
related monies)
I believe this is to keep folks who are in 'tribes' which are recognized by
states as, for example, corporations (instead of tribes) and also to keep
groups who are recognized by states as long as the states don't have to 'put
their money where their mouth is'.... (in other words, there are some groups
that have been 'recognized' by states for tourist money purposes and little
else.... )
Wierd world. thanks for listening, chris
Rick Kerchee
Yeah, what you said makes sense to me. I guess I see art being a lot like
music. Now I'm no artist, but I am a musician. Music evolves alot. Many
different ethnic groups borrow rythms, scales, and what not from other ethnic
groups. For instance, there is a big deal in alternative rock called ska right
now. Ska originated in Jamaica, but has been adopted by young anglo-artists
as their form of musical expression. Blues, for instance originated in the
black community as we are all aware. But people like Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck,
and even the Beatles (my favorite band of all time) themselves too a musical
style that was not of thier culture and made it something uniquely theirs.
I guesss what I'm saying is that I think it's cool if non-Indians wish to
explore Native Art. The only thing is, I agree that they should not sell it or
present it as being native art. After all, even though the early Beatles music
was blues-based...it certainly wasn't the blues.
Rick
In article <7dumjv$1...@junkie.gnofn.org>, jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org>
wrote:
Beau Bowen
> Yet, I also am encouraged to express myself as an artist, which I have
> always done. Except, for the past number of years, I find myself
> inexplicably drawn to the artistic traditions of the Northwest Coast. Is
> it just a phase? Like, "Oooh, this is neat, I think I'll try it!"? I
> don't know. I tried it, persisted and I believe I am good at it. But
> without the knowledge that goes with the forms, I can only depict what I
> know from a white p.o.v. - and that's why my work will be considered a
> bastard version.
Um, if you have no contact with real NWC people, how do you know it's
good?
So one gallery owner likes it. Are they a NWC person? Even if they were,
would they be representative of the opinoins of other NWC people?
I think you need to seek out the opinion of a wide array of actual NWC
people before deciding you're good at it.
I'm a professional author and editor, and I have been inundated with the
works of pisspoor authors who are CONVINCED that they are wonderful and
talented and gifted and as good as anything on the market.........
I expect that similar things happen in the art world.
Not to discourage or denigrate your talent; maybe you are wonderful. But
you'll be a lot better with about twenty years of practice.
Beau
Beau Bowen
I'm sending a check. But what are the ladies trying to raise funds for? I'm
passing the word among my friends. I'm sure we can get folks to send a few
dollars.
Beau
Floyd Davidson
Beau Bowen <no-spa...@netgsi.com> wrote:
>Floyd,
>
>I'm sending a check. But what are the ladies trying to raise funds for? I'm
>passing the word among my friends. I'm sure we can get folks to send a few
>dollars.
>
>Beau
I didn't ask them what the raffle was expected to fund, so I
really have no idea. They probably do have something specific
in mind, but it is also possible that they are just finding a
way to share their resources with the women who have less.
Inupiat culture is *exceedingly* strong on sharing, and it never
even occured to me to question what they would do with the
money. I'm sure that whatever they are doing is good.
Perhaps I should note that my intent here is not to raise money
for them. There are many many Native charities in the lower-48
that have fewer resources and are much more appropriate places
to send your real donation dollars.
The small donation is just a vehicle, and the intent is to
generate a few letters that remind them just how big the world
really is, and yet how small a place it is too. I'm sure it
will tickle them a little, and happy mothers make for happy well
adjusted kids. The good feelings, not money, are what is
significant in this case.
BTW, if anyone wants to see what Pt. Lay looks like, my web
page has a few pictures of things like the Native Store,
the school, and an aerial view too. On the home page,
the center image of Eskimo Dancing, from the Kivgiq 1999
celebration, are the Kalimuit (Point Lay is Kali in Inupiat,
and the people are the Kalimuit). (And for more about
Eskimo dancing, see the Atqasuk pictures too!)
Floyd
robe...@my-dejanews.com
> Dear Catherine,
> I have been reading this thread for awhile, and finally feel
> compelled
> to reply. Being aware of the issue primarily through having
> owned my
> own Native American gift shop for many years...
>
Wicakpi,
With all due respect, how can you be offended by non-indains producing art
that borrows indian ideas? After all, indian people have been borrowing ideas
from other tribes for centuries and using them in their own way. Are you
telling me that a Seminole for example may produce NWC art even though his
culture is very different? And isn't it strange that if someone finds one day
that he/she is 1/132 indian, they suddenly have a license to produce indian
art? Any kind of indian art? Also, native people have taken ideas from the
european world and used them in their art. The American flag is one example
but there are many. Isn't the issue really false advertising? If someone says
they are native when they are not they a lying. To copy someones art in order
to deceive is stealing. These things are dishonorable. But, to simply borrow
ideas in art has been done honorably since the beginning of time. Culture
borrowing is inevitable and is going to happen on some level whether we like
it or not. I think the real issue may be that natives have been denied full
opportunities in the white economic system. Now, natives finally have an
avenue to make a good livng in the art world. Then, here comes the "white
man" again to screw that up too. There has been much abuse. I just hope that
we can see the real issues and avoid a virtual "political rule book" for art.
Thanks....Robert
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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jeanine r pinkney
And one must always give back! Otherwise it is not borrowing it is
stealing.
Just my twobits worth...
Dee
robe...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> With all due respect, how can you be offended by non-indains producing art
> that borrows indian ideas? After all, indian people have been borrowing ideas
> from other tribes for centuries and using them in their own way. Are you
> telling me that a Seminole for example may produce NWC art even though his
(etc)
ddmc
robe...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7e3t18$hot$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
non-indains producing art
>that borrows indian ideas?
For all of the reasons stated above. Ever heard of the
Indian Arts and Crafts Act? Many artists do not "borrow"
Indian "ideas"-- they *duplicate* Indian art without the
permission of the originators.
After all, indian people have been borrowing ideas
>from other tribes for centuries and using them in their own
way. Are you
>telling me that a Seminole for example may produce NWC art
even though his
>culture is very different?
No, I am not telling you that. Your example is extreme.
And isn't it strange that if someone finds one day
>that he/she is 1/132 indian, they suddenly have a license
to produce indian
>art? Any kind of indian art?
Are you saying that someone with 1/132 blood is not Indian?
That's an entirely *different* subject.
Also, native people have taken ideas from the
>european world and used them in their art. The American
flag is one example
The Government certainly doesn't mind if anyone depicts the
flag in art.
>but there are many. Isn't the issue really false
advertising? If someone says
>they are native when they are not they a lying. To copy
someones art in order
>to deceive is stealing. These things are dishonorable.
My point exactly.
But,
to simply borrow
>ideas in art has been done honorably since the beginning of
time. Culture
>borrowing is inevitable and is going to happen on some
level whether we like
>it or not.
Please consider that much of traditional PNW art and
carvings depict personal family and clan totems, over which
the clan has sole ownership-- other PNW Indians *never* copy
or use them. PNW art is not just an "idea," and PNW
Indians do not want it duplicated. Much like a trademark is
owned, for instance.
I think the real issue may be that natives have been denied
full
>opportunities in the white economic system. Now, natives
finally have an
>avenue to make a good livng in the art world. Then, here
comes the "white
>man" again to screw that up too. There has been much abuse.
Yes, there *has* been too much abuse. That's why I
responded to the message in the first place.
I just hope that
>we can see the real issues and avoid a virtual "political
rule book" for art.
There already *is* such a "politcial rule book." It is
known
as the "Indian Arts and Crafts Act." As for other Indians
duplicating another's tribal art, permission is always
dictated beforehand.
>Thanks....Robert
Have you ever worked in this field before? If so, Robert,
you would have no trouble identifying the issues, or
understanding the Indian viewpoint.
Thanks, Wicakpi
robe...@my-dejanews.com
Thank you for the response. At first, I thought to myself "I used the wrong
word. I guess I meant influenced". But, you bring up a good point. I know of
tribes who obtained special dances or ceremonies from other tribes. Almost
always, they would pay for this right. Like with horses or something like
that. I know this is sort of moving away from the subject of art, but it is
important. This willingness to pay cannot be over-looked. White society (in
my opinion) teaches you to try to avoid paying. It encourages you to obtain
lots of things and if you pay nothing for it, it's all the better. This is a
barrier. I admit, a willingness to pay has not been a high point for
whites/europeans. I guess I am also approaching this subject from a different
point of view. I have been heavily influenced by native people in my life. I
think a stong native influence would be healthy for whites (and maybe
indians?). Maybe I'm dreaming but I would like to see it encouraged in a good
way. This is my personal view...Robert
In article <7e3v0h$i...@junkie.gnofn.org>,
jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org> wrote:
> I always hear about borrowing. But borrowing is done with permission.
> And one must always give back! Otherwise it is not borrowing it is
> stealing.
>
> Just my twobits worth...
> Dee
>
> robe...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > With all due respect, how can you be offended by non-indains producing art
> > that borrows indian ideas? After all, indian people have been borrowing
ideas
> > from other tribes for centuries and using them in their own way. Are you
> > telling me that a Seminole for example may produce NWC art even though his
> (etc)
robe...@my-dejanews.com
> non-indains producing art
> >that borrows indian ideas?
>
> Indian Arts and Crafts Act? Many artists do not "borrow"
> Indian "ideas"-- they *duplicate* Indian art without the
> permission of the originators.
>
> >from other tribes for centuries and using them in their own
> way. Are you
> >telling me that a Seminole for example may produce NWC art
> even though his
Thanks for the reply. You sound very knowledgable and it's good that people
like you are working in this area. I personally agree with the Indian Arts
and Crafts Act. I don't think that it is political as much as it is common
sense. Any fool that tries to sell things by lying needs to be stopped. I
have many close native friends. I feel bad when I see some of the garbage
that's being produced out there. Since we don't know each other, its hard to
explain what I feel about this sensitive subject. I have been strongly
influenced by native people. I have been encouraged by many to keep going no
matter what anyone says. Whether its dancing or art or whatever. I can see
that you have strong feelings because of a lot of the crap out there. I have
strong feelings because of some good things in my life. I agree with you
about specific cases where people are being offended by thoughtless acts. At
the same time, I would like to encourage a healthy native influence in art
and other areas
Rick Kerchee
But, you bring up a good point. I know of
>tribes who obtained special dances or ceremonies from other tribes. Almost
>always, they would pay for this right. Like with horses or something like
>that. I know this is sort of moving away from the subject of art, but it is
>important. This willingness to pay cannot be over-looked. White society (in
>my opinion) teaches you to try to avoid paying. It encourages you to obtain
>lots of things and if you pay nothing for it, it's all the better. This is a
>barrier. I admit, a willingness to pay has not been a high point for
>whites/europeans. I guess I am also approaching this subject from a different
>point of view. I have been heavily influenced by native people in my life. I
>think a stong native influence would be healthy for whites (and maybe
>indians?). Maybe I'm dreaming but I would like to see it encouraged in a good
>way. This is my personal view...Robert
Sometimes they are given as a result of doing a good deed. For instance, there
was a time when the Ponca were in some really dire straits. The Comanche went
up and helped them out during their times of trouble. For this, our people
were given what is now called the Southern Straight dance.
Rick
******************************************
Get the facts Jack! Seeing is believing!
Why are we here?..Because we're here
Roll the Bones
Why does it happen?...Because it happens
Roll the Bones
carte...@my-dejanews.com
num...@hotmail.com (Rick Kerchee) wrote:
> In article <7e8u81$g5i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, robe...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> But, you bring up a good point. I know of
> >tribes who obtained special dances or ceremonies from other tribes. Almost
> >always, they would pay for this right. Like with horses or something like
> >that. I know this is sort of moving away from the subject of art, but it is
> >important. This willingness to pay cannot be over-looked. White society (in
> >my opinion) teaches you to try to avoid paying. It encourages you to obtain
> >lots of things and if you pay nothing for it, it's all the better. This is a
> >barrier. I admit, a willingness to pay has not been a high point for
> >whites/europeans. I guess I am also approaching this subject from a different
> >point of view. I have been heavily influenced by native people in my life. I
> >think a stong native influence would be healthy for whites (and maybe
> >indians?). Maybe I'm dreaming but I would like to see it encouraged in a good
> >way. This is my personal view...Robert
>
> Sometimes they are given as a result of doing a good deed. For instance, there
> was a time when the Ponca were in some really dire straits. The Comanche went
> up and helped them out during their times of trouble. For this, our people
> were given what is now called the Southern Straight dance.
>
> Rick
>
> *****************************************
> of our sacrament medicine. Last night I was at a dance with Charles
> Chibitty, he and my sister Casey Camp(the actress) were head staff
> over at Tulsa. He told us he is the last living Commanche codetalker.
> It was good to here him talk with my 84 yr.old Mom about the long
> relationship between our Tribes. He told me a few stories about
> dancing contest against my Uncle Gus McDonald who is known to the
> Pow-wow world as the greatest of all. Ah-ho Carter
****Remember...Think Ponca!****
Carter
Rick Kerchee
>> Ponca are still grateful Rick, and even more greatful for the gift
>> of our sacrament medicine. Last night I was at a dance with Charles
>> Chibitty, he and my sister Casey Camp(the actress) were head staff
>> over at Tulsa. He told us he is the last living Commanche codetalker.
>> It was good to here him talk with my 84 yr.old Mom about the long
>> relationship between our Tribes. He told me a few stories about
>> dancing contest against my Uncle Gus McDonald who is known to the
>> Pow-wow world as the greatest of all. Ah-ho Carter
>
> ****Remember...Think Ponca!****
> Carter
I always enjoyed the friendship that the Ponca people have show me,
particularly the Roughface family. It's good to know that our people are
always welcome up there, and yours in Lawton.
ddmc
My husband was invited quite a few years ago to dance in a
Haluska Society powwow. Paul Roughface was whipman, and Abe
Conklin was headman... Paul's wife was one of the nicest
women I've ever met. And then I recognized Randolph
Mantooth in the audience and b.s.'d with him for a while
(you remember, the old "Emergency" TV show that used to be
on?) Anyway, what a night that was... Those Poncas sure do
know how to put on a heck of a powwow!
Wicakpi
Rick Kerchee wrote in message ...
reds...@wolfenet.com
the other day when I got your email that said "Think Ponca". It was great. Made me
feel real good. Sorry in not responding so soon, but I have been a little under the
weather. I sang with Redstone out of Seattle led by Mack Silverhorn, and I count
tell you the many times I enjoyed singing some of those great Ponca songs, it just
would revive my spirit sometimes so much, so I thank your people for those beautiful
songs. I am looking forward to going back this year, and hopefully, it will be in
May for the Little Ponies dance. Keep in touch new friend. John
p.s. Sorry for straying from the thread guys. In a rush this morning.
>
ne...@my-dejanews.com
Snip to save bandwidth...
>
> I've put my query out there, and I'm surprised there aren't any
> Ukranians howling at me for not taking up psanky (traditional egg
> painting) ;) Thanks for being patient.
>
> Catherine
Catherine,
i'm an artist too, and i have studied the art of my varied ancestors each to
some degree (african, russian, native american and celtic). I've also studied
the arts of peoples i am not related to, but have influenced my art anyway,
like the arts of india, japan, china and haiti. (admitedly, i graze though
these, i hope to go into all of them in detail as a grow on this planet) With
the help of time i have begun to forge my own style and iconography that
touches upon the Great Traditions but is also demonstrative of myself. Now, it
would be *really* interesting if you were to start taking what energizes you
from the NorthWest style and mixing it up with your own culture(s) and private
self. How about psanky painted eggs in black, white and red graphic designs?
How about carved cedar boxes with the capital of the Ukraine executed in that
beautiful flowing anthropomorphic style? I can imagine so much... can you?
good luck!
nicole
reds...@wolfenet.com
prayer song, I think it is Ponca also, I'll have to go back and listen to the tape
again I recorded when we were in BC Canada and took 1st place.. Gosh, I miss our
group not being together like it was. Mack Silverhorn was our lead then he moved to
OK and then his son, Ryan took over. Rusty Kaulity sang with us when he was out
here too, as well as Preston Tone Pah Hote. Now Preston could really sing, and had
a voice that was sweet to the ears, of course I never told him that. Him and his
wife are on the east coast now. Keep them in your prayers, he is on a naval sub and
could be in the Kosvo region. The later two were Kiowa. Now to me the one song
thats a tear jerker because of the history behind it was the Adobe Walls song! What
a song there.
Rick Kerchee wrote:
> John,
>
> One of my favorite Ponca songs is the one that sounds like (all you straight
> dancers should know this one)
>
> Show me your pay..Oh my God.
>
> I know that's not what they're saying, but that's what it has always sounded
>
rick
Rick Kerchee
One of my favorite Ponca songs is the one that sounds like (all you straight
dancers should know this one)
Show me your pay..Oh my God.
I know that's not what they're saying, but that's what it has always sounded
like. That is one keen song and makes me dance even harder.
Rick