Protestor Damages Enola Gay
BroJack
Charge him with treason followed by execution.
BroJack
______
http://www.jrnl.com/cfdocs/new/ffx/mainstory.cfm?snumber=04&paper=ffx§ion=fp
Protester damages historic plane
By JOHN ROSSOMANDO
Journal staff writer
Monday's opening of the National Air and Space Museum's new
Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center was marred by a protester who damaged one
of the museum's historic aircraft.
The B-29 Enola Gay's fragile aluminum-alloy skin was damaged when
a glass bottle filled with red paint was thrown at the aircraft from a
walkway above it. The bottle hit the plane's left side, denting an
area just below the third row of windows and then shattered on the
floor.
``There was a pop, then a splat, then I turned around and saw that
there was some damage to the airframe,'' said an employee at the
museum, located at Dulles International Airport.
Museum security detained Thomas K. Siemer, 73, of Columbus, Ohio,
around 11:15 a.m. until police from the Metropolitan Washington
Airports Authority arrested him and charged him with felony damage to
property and loitering.
Siemer was taken to the Fairfax County Adult Detention Center
after his arrest. Bond information was not available Monday afternoon.
He was part of a contingent of 40 to 50 protesters who objected to
the Smithsonian's refusal to include information in the plane's
exhibit about the 103,000 deaths it caused when it dropped a nuclear
bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, said museum spokesman Peter Golkin.
Instead, the aircraft's nameplate devotes one sentence to the
events of Aug. 6, 1945, while placing a greater emphasis upon the role
played by the B-29 bomber in the waning days of the Pacific war.
``There were two groups of protesters; there was a very dignified
group of Hiroshima survivors that were not related [to the
incident],'' a museum guard said. ``There was another group that was
trying to disrupt things to get their point across. They upset a lot
of people.''
Museum officials identified disruptive protesters as belonging to
a group called the Gray Panthers.
Following the incident, museum security closed off the bridge from
which the bottle was thrown, cordoned off the area in front of the
plane and posted armed guards around it.
``They claimed they were participating in a peaceful protest, but
throwing a glass container with red paint in it is not a peaceful
protest,'' Golkin said. ``We don't put the numbers of casualties on
aircraft from our warplane collection, because if we did it for one,
then we would have to do it for all of them. It is a question of
fairness.''
The Enola Gay recently finished nearly a decade of restoration
efforts, the costs of which the Smithsonian is not disclosing.
Museum officials said the aircraft's skin is like two pieces of
bonded aluminum foil with an aluminum alloy sandwiched in between that
is easily dented. The sandwiched configuration protects the alloy from
corrosion caused by exposure to the air.
Repair estimates were not available Monday, but museum curators
will use before and after photos to determine how much it will cost to
repair the Enola Gay.
``It's just plain ridiculous,'' said Cupe Adams, 25, a tourist
visiting from Texas. ``This plane saved a lot of American lives. Two
of my grandfathers would have been in the invasion of Japan had Truman
not made the decision to use the bomb.''
Other visitors shared Adams' feelings.
``It's kind of an emotional thing; we're here for the beauty of
being able to fly and for the beauty of this aircraft,'' said Kevin
O'Meara, 45, of Alexandria. ``I would have preferred for those people
to die, than to have millions of Americans killed in the invasion of
Japan.''
Another individual identified as Gregory Wright, 55, of Hagerstown
also was arrested on loitering charges. Airports authority officials
do not know if Wright was involved in the protest.
The Enola Gay is one of 82 historic aircraft at the $311 million
Udvar-Hazy Center. On the museum's first day, 7,083 people attended, a
spokeswoman said.
Gunnar
Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
a small request to me.
It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
plane/bomb.
Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
?
G
Bjørnar
> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It
> seams like a small request to me.
> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> plane/bomb.
>
> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>
> ?
> G
Civilian casualities is always a touchy subject for the winning
team. Just look at Irak and Afghanistan, somewhere between 10-20.000
civilians have died as a consequense of the US and allied bombings,
but it's hardly mentioned.
As a reminder, 3,000 died in the WTC attack.
Regards...
BroJack
Gunnar wrote in message ...
>
>Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams
like
>a small request to me.
>It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
>plane/bomb.
>
>Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>
>?
We nuked jap! Remember Hiroshima and Nagasake!
We hated those jap just like we hated non-christian indian.
Jap must all died because we are the most imporant race
on earth. We are the god-chosen people. Go read the BOOK.
Manifest Destiny is our right to nuke any enemy blocking our
ways...But who cares? No logic, no morality, no truth will ever
prevail unless we as the white trash free racist people on earth
must stand on our physical power of destruction to show the world
our capablity...
Rosh
> The B-29 Enola Gay's fragile aluminum-alloy skin was damaged when
Fragile skin? B-29? Then you must coat it with baby oil. ;)
Red Cloud
wrote:
>
>Gunnar wrote in message ...
>>
>>Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams
>like
>>a small request to me.
>>It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
>>plane/bomb.
>>
>>Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>>
>>?
>
> We nuked jap! Remember Hiroshima and Nagasake!
> We hated those jap just like we hated non-christian indian.
> Jap must all died because we are the most imporant race
>on earth. We are the god-chosen people. Go read the BOOK.
>Manifest Destiny is our right to nuke any enemy blocking our
>ways...But who cares? No logic, no morality, no truth will ever
> prevail unless we as the white trash free racist people on earth
>must stand on our physical power of destruction to show the world
>our capablity...
Enola Gay save many American and American Indian lives. Enola Gay
good thing.
Red Cloud (Kim)
Gregory Baker
>
> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
> a small request to me.
> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> plane/bomb.
>
> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>
> ?
> G
The problem, in my opinion, is the ghosts of post-war history. The
anti-nuclear movement became associated with the efforts of the Soviets
to undermine the credibility of Western governments. In addition, the
reluctance of the Japanese to own up to the atrocities committed against
American prisoners and the Chinese has made Americans see their position
on the _Enola_Gay_ as hypocritical. Furthermore, the calculations on
the casualties on invasion of Japan (the U.S. military had ordered 1
million coffins) make the A-Bomb seem merciful; and indeed it was
compared to B-29s flying from Tinian, B-17s and B-24s and Lancasters
from Okinawa, and a continual sea blockade.
Another point to consider was that Hiroshima was NOT a target of merely
innocent civilians. Hiroshima was the command post for the defense of
southern Japan; the bomb was timed to catch three divisions of Japanese
soldiers in the open doing their P.T. Had the bombs still resulted in
the invasion of Japan, those three divisions would have been sorely
missed.
The bombing was the better of two painful alternatives. The Cold War
continued to make the episode painful.
Gene Storey
>
> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
> a small request to me.
> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> plane/bomb.
>
> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
Why not put a sign up at all the war memorials in DC, and explain to
the public how many people each of the soldiers killed?
Why not put a sign up at each prison saying how many convicts were
killed today?
Maybe it's not about death, but the glorification of freedom?
brojack
wrote:
>"Gunnar" <bul...@email.no> wrote
>>
>> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
>> a small request to me.
>> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
>> plane/bomb.
>>
>> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>
>Why not put a sign up at all the war memorials in DC, and explain to
>the public how many people each of the soldiers killed?
Along with the name of each American citizen who owes his freedom to
those boys.
>Why not put a sign up at each prison saying how many convicts were
>killed today?
Along with how many $$$ that saves each taxpayer.
>Maybe it's not about death, but the glorification of freedom?
I glorify freedom every day.
BroJack
robert arndt
> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
> a small request to me.
> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> plane/bomb.
Wrong as the plane is just the delivery system, not the weapon that
actually killed the Japanese. It would be better if a replica of the
bomb was included with the plane and the casualties described with
that instead.
>
> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
No, but the protestors have an agenda that ultimately includes
revisionist history, making the Enola Gay part of ficticious war
crimes committed against Japan. War is war and the atomic bombing,
while horrendous, is militarily justified. Many see it as morally
wrong and want the conflict that US scientists had with its intended
use once it was built included with the display.
I agree with the museum that the exhibit should not be turned into
some form of PC target. What is stated with the display is simple and
correct with no need to modify it.
Do the Japanese include mention of Pearl Harbor and lives lost there
with displays of IJN aircraft? I think not.
Rob
Unknown
>>?
>
> We nuked jap! Remember Hiroshima and Nagasake!
> We hated those jap just like we hated non-christian indian.
> Jap must all died because we are the most imporant race
>on earth. We are the god-chosen people. Go read the BOOK.
>Manifest Destiny is our right to nuke any enemy blocking our
>ways...But who cares? No logic, no morality, no truth will ever
> prevail unless we as the white trash free racist people on earth
>must stand on our physical power of destruction to show the world
>our capablity...
>
>
-Gord.
"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"
Tarver Engineering
"Bjørnar" <bbo...@hotmail.nospam> wrote in message
news:Xns94545F8...@193.216.69.37...
> "Gunnar" <bul...@email.no> wrote in news:brp20e$69n$1...@services.kq.no:
>
> > Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It
> > seams like a small request to me.
> > It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> > plane/bomb.
> >
> > Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
> >
> > ?
> > G
>
> Civilian casualities is always a touchy subject for the winning
> team. Just look at Irak and Afghanistan, somewhere between 10-20.000
> civilians have died as a consequense of the US and allied bombings,
> but it's hardly mentioned.
>
> As a reminder, 3,000 died in the WTC attack.
And 5,000 Iraqi children died every year for ten years, for old Europe's
status quo.
What is your point? To do nothing was unacceptable.
Earl Watkins
By this time in WWII mega death was a fact of life in Japan. There
were more civilians killed in Tokyo by mass B-29 air raids months
before the atomic bombs were used. Many other raids were comperable in
scope. The only difference was that it was done with one plane insted
of hundereds. The bottom line is the Japanese were not ready to
surrender untill the emperior ordered it, and some of his generals
even tried force the emperior to change his mind, after the atomic
raids.
And the Enola Gay was not the aircraft that ended the war, Bocks Car
was and it has been on display at the Air Force Museum for many years.
KenG
KenG
Ernest Schaal
mentioning the thousands who died because of the bombs, there should have
been mention of the greater number of Japanese lives that were spared from
their inhumane government, who had wanted all Japanese to die rather than
admit that their leaders lost the war, a war they never could have won.
in article 6j7Eb.150185$dl.63...@twister.southeast.rr.com, KenG at
Ke...@dont.spam.me.ec.rr.co wrote on 12/18/03 10:22 AM:
Cr...@nospam.com
Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
commie, rat-bastard liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
it than they ever did....
"Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
bomb was completely unnecessary"
Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380
"the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63
"No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
Douglas MacArthur
Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Ernest Schaal
If you had been keeping up with the news (specifically the Japanese
newspapers), you would have known that even after the Nagasaki bomb was
dropped, the military wanted to continue the struggle to the death of the
last Japanese, rather than admit defeat. There were a few stories to that
effect in the Japan Times within the past year or so. Those stories might
still be accessible somewhere.
Needless to say, both Eisenhower and MacArthur had been dead before those
revelations had been made, although I remember reading about the role of the
emperor in finally admitting the defeat as early as the 1970s.
It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
really matter, since the Japan of that time was under the tight control of a
government run by the military. While there were civilians in the
government, the cabinet could be brought down (and often did) at any time by
the Army or Navy quitting from the cabinet. Throughout that period, thought
police persecuted anyone who dared voice a dissenting opinion.
The net result of all this is that Japan has become very pacifist since the
war, and there is major political turmoil with even the sending of
noncombatants to Iraq, or anywhere for that matter. On television, the
Japanese military of the period are often the heavies, far more than the
American military.
Do you ever bother to study Japanese history or Japanese society? Have you
ever visited here or lived here?
in article sn92uv0hfo8ppkh00...@4ax.com, Cr...@NoSpam.com at
Cr...@NoSpam.com wrote on 12/18/03 1:03 PM:
>
> Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
> know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
> the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
> commie, rat-bastard liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
> it than they ever did....
>
> "Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
> bomb was completely unnecessary"
> Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380
>
> "the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
> necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
> Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63
>
> "No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
> Douglas MacArthur
> Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65
I
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
>really matter,
Very true ...
what mattered was that Toyko and the Japanese military infrastructure
and capacity to wage war had been already destroyed.
Ernest Schaal
have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.
Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
on this matter.
in article cbb2uvgmk8oc8olj1...@4ax.com, jake at
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/18/03 1:34 PM:
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
>have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
>circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
>was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
>than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.
sure...
I dont doubt it for a moment..throughout human history meglomaniacs
have always been prepared to do so..
but they were the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power.
>Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
>surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
>on this matter.
Indeed ..
but the Japanese military had already been defeated..
The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..
Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
Mitsubushi factory there..
Ernest Schaal
I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
and more dominant.
Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
both bombs had not been dropped. The civilians were being trained to use
bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
political power in Japan. The form of government in Japan was not a
democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
war years.
Do you know anything about Japanese history?
in article mcc2uv8519od5id4c...@4ax.com, jake at
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/18/03 1:59 PM:
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>Jake,
>
>I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
>especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
>and more dominant.
>
>Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
>change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
>both bombs had not been dropped.
this is not a "fact " but your assertion..
>The civilians were being trained to use
>bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
assembled in the history of the world..now would it?
>You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
>power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
>political power in Japan.
they lost it the instant the army was defeated..
To quote one of your neighbours..
"political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
>The form of government in Japan was not a
>democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
>old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
victors..
>
>I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
>war years.
after the Tokyo raids it stopped at article one..
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/1889con.html
Article 1. The Empire of Japan shall be reigned over and governed by a
line of Emperors unbroken for ages eternal.
Article 2. The Imperial Throne shall be succeeded to by Imperial male
descendants, according to the provisions of the Imperial House Law.
Article 3. The Emperor is sacred and inviolable.
>Do you know anything about Japanese history?
only where it intersects with European history..
Nagasaki and Townhouse #9 both celebrated a 400th anniversary on
Thursday, 6 February, 1997. Nagasaki reminds us of atomic devastation,
but 450 years ago it was home to the first Christians of Japan,
descendants of Francis Xavier's converts and the site of the first
Christian martyrs of Japan. Townhouse #9 is named to honor Saint Paul
Miki, S. J. who died in Nagasaki 400 years ago this Thursday, 6
February. Death days are celebrated by Catholics because it coincides
with one's birthday into Eternal Life.
Paul
ìwas a Jesuit scholastic, one year away from ordination to the
priesthood and only 27 years old, born in 1564 he died a martyr for
his Faith in 1597. Paul was the first Japanese member of any Catholic
Religious order, and had it not been for his martyrdom he would have
been the first Japanese priest.
He was the son of a well-to-do Japanese military chief, living near
Kyoto, and as such had the right to wear the bright, noble kimono of
the Samurai. Paul Miki's family became Christian when he was about
five years old. At the age of 22 he joined the Jesuits. Paul proved
himself to be an excellent disputant with leaders of other religious
sects and was recognized as an eloquent speaker who preached with such
fervor and eloquence that he changed the minds of many listeners who
were not Christians.
Paul Miki lived during Christianity's most rapid increase - the
200,000 conversions which occurred in Japan during the 40 years follow
ûing Francis Xavier. This forward thrust ended when the military
General Toyotomi Hideyoshi seized power. Initially indifferent to the
work of the Jesuits, Hideyoshi changed his mind in 1587 and decreed
that all missionaries leave the realm. None of the 100 Jesuits obeyed
this order, but instead they went underground to continue to serve and
comfort the Japanese Catholics. Their Jesuit companions were doing the
same thing serving the Catholics in England under Queen Elizabeth's
gruesome persecution of Catholics. Many Jesuits both in Japan and
England succeeded in outwitting - at least for a time - both
Hideyoshi's and Queen Elizabeth's priest-hunters.
In 1596, just a few months before his ordination to the priesthood, he
was arrested with two companions at the Jesuit residence in Osaka.
Their ears were cut off as a sign of disgrace and they were paraded
through many towns as a warning to other Christians. Finally a few
weeks later
[ Paul Miki and two other Jesuits were crucified along with 23 other
Christians. Bystanders described Miki's remarkable composure during
this ordeal dressed in his Jesuit cassock (although he had the right
to dress as a Samurai) and delivering one last sermon from the cross
there in Nagasaki in 1597.
Paul Miki's story is related in a number of books in our Nyselius
Library, one of which is Wings of Eagles, by Francis Corley and R.
Willmes (BX4655.C6). Paul Miki was not only the first religious but
also in the first group of martyrs of Japan.
‡
Kevin Brooks
"jake" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:die2uvkn9j7vobfr4...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> >Jake,
> >
> >I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
> >especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
> >and more dominant.
> >
> >Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
> >change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
> >both bombs had not been dropped.
>
> this is not a "fact " but your assertion..
An assertion based in facts. The Japanese civilians were already starting to
starve (by the end of July, the average Japanese was subsisting on some 1680
calories per day, and the call had gone out to harvest a couple of million
bushels of acorns to try and stem the tide of starvation)--prolonging the
war would undoubtedly have resulted in a lot of civilian deaths due to
starvation. Add in the deaths that would have resulted from the continuing,
and increasing, conventional aerial bombardment (the B-29 force was still
growing, and after Okinawa fell the potential of aircraft like the B-24 to
be added to the assaulting force was nearing fruition), recalling that more
prople died in Tokyo and its environs due to the earlier incendiary attacks
than died at Hiroshima. Those bypassed Japanese forces in the south and
western Pacific that were already suffering deaths due to starvation would
have lost that many more of their garrisons. Finally, toss in the deaths
that the Japanese alone (disregarding the heavy casulaties that would
undoubtedly have been borne by the Olympic/Coronet assault forces) would
have suffered during an invasion. Add them up and any realistic observer is
going to conclude that they would undoubtedly have exceeded the sum total of
both atomic bomb attacks.
>
> >The civilians were being trained to use
> >bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
>
> civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
> the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
> assembled in the history of the world..now would it?
Which is why they would have died in dizzying numbers, albeit while taking
some number of US troops with them.
>
>
> >You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
> >power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
> >political power in Japan.
>
> they lost it the instant the army was defeated..
The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
prevent the surrender.
> To quote one of your neighbours..
> "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
>
>
> >The form of government in Japan was not a
> >democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a
centuries
> >old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
>
> And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
> victors..
Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?
<snip further mindless drivel>
Brooks
BroJack
Gord Beaman wrote in message ...
>" BroJack" <bro...@windswept.net> wrote:
>
>>>?
>>
>> We nuked jap! Remember Hiroshima and Nagasake!
>> We hated those jap just like we hated non-christian indian.
>> Jap must all died because we are the most imporant race
>>on earth. We are the god-chosen people. Go read the BOOK.
>>Manifest Destiny is our right to nuke any enemy blocking our
>>ways...But who cares? No logic, no morality, no truth will ever
>> prevail unless we as the white trash free racist people on earth
>>must stand on our physical power of destruction to show the world
>>our capablity...
>>
>>
> Jesus!!...who let you out??
We have the bomb. We will bomb anyone on our way...
Rememer Iraq! We are taking Iraq oil for free because we
have the bomb. We are hijacking Iraq property and no european
no peace-lovers can stop us. We will nuke them!!!
We are the peace-maker because we say so.
Rememer how my ancestors wiped out native people....
Indians were on our way...so my people must do the right thing.
Don't ever forget that we white race became Native American today
according to our democratic ( by white majority) rule. As long as we white
race
ruled this nation and the world, there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Challenging our way, we will nuke them! We are the god-chosen-people!
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/18/03 2:48 PM:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> Jake,
>>
>> I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
>> especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
>> and more dominant.
>>
>> Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
>> change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
>> both bombs had not been dropped.
>
> this is not a "fact " but your assertion..
It not merely my assertion, but that of others as well.
>
>> The civilians were being trained to use
>> bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
>
> civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
> the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
> assembled in the history of the world..now would it?
True, they probably would not be effective against our forces, but a poorly
armed force that can't (not permitted to) surrender usually has high
causalities.
>> You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
>> power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
>> political power in Japan.
>
> they lost it the instant the army was defeated..
> To quote one of your neighbours..
> "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
The above statement shows that you know absolutely nothing about Japanese
history or Japanese culture. Although there had been peasant revolts for
over a thousand years, those revolts were always unsuccessful and ended
poorly for those who revolted. Considering that history, a successful revolt
against the military-controlled government simply was not an option.
>> The form of government in Japan was not a
>> democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
>> old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
>
> And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
> victors..
That didn't happen until after the surrender.
>>
>> I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
>> war years.
>
> after the Tokyo raids it stopped at article one..
>
> http://history.hanover.edu/texts/1889con.html
>
> Article 1. The Empire of Japan shall be reigned over and governed by a
> line of Emperors unbroken for ages eternal.
>
> Article 2. The Imperial Throne shall be succeeded to by Imperial male
> descendants, according to the provisions of the Imperial House Law.
>
> Article 3. The Emperor is sacred and inviolable.
While the Emperor was "sacred and inviolable," that Emperor was usually
controlled by his cabinet. Even the Meiji emperor really didn't have the
power that the constitution said he had.
If you knew anything about Japanese history, which you clearly don't, you
would have realized that even prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, and even
prior to the other shogunates, the real power did not rest in the Emperor.
During the Heian period ("Tale of Genji"), the emperor's advisers or
ex-emperors controlled the figurehead emperor. Occasionally an emperor would
endeavor to win back real power, but any success was fleeting.
The Tokyo raids did as much damage as the atomic bombs, but those raids did
not effectively reduce the political power of military nor did they change
the nature of that government, except to make it more determined. Even the
two atomic bombs were almost not enough.
>> Do you know anything about Japanese history?
>
> only where it intersects with European history..
That explains a lot about your misconceptions on this matter.
Anonymous
robert arndt wrote in message <9b35beb1.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>It would be better if a replica of the
>bomb was included with the plane
That sounds a bit dangerous, doesn't it?
;o)
Cindy
> The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
> even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
> prevent the surrender.
Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet members
voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.
At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have any
means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.
> Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?
Sex industry was indeed a big hit.
Kevin Brooks
"Cindy" <cind...@attb.com> wrote in message
news:lulEb.144653$_M.714783@attbi_s54...
If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
Japanese social history.
Brooks
>
Cindy
> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
> Japanese social history.
I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?
Kevin Brooks
I know that the Japanese have a long history of a rather liberal attitude
towards sex, extending back a couple of centuries before they ever met an
American, much less were conquered by us. You might care to examine some of
their artwork.
Brooks
>
Jarg
refused to surrender long after it was apparent they had no hope of winning,
causing quite a bit of death and destruction along the way.
From what I have read, the Native Americans weren't exactly innocents
either - don't forget they were butchering each other pretty frequently
also. I have never heard of a point in history where some group or another
wasn't suffering at the hands of another. The fact that we have reached a
point where we are trying to end that cycle is good, but it is hardly fair
to condemn our ancestors who lived in completely different circumstances and
had completely different cultural norms, view, etc.
But if you want to start digging into the past, let's not forget the
Neanderthals, most likely victims of our species the poor bastards! ;)
Jarg
"BroJack" <bro...@windswept.net> wrote in message
news:vu2ktvh...@corp.supernews.com...
Ernest Schaal
wrote on 12/19/03 3:08 AM:
Cindy,
Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
American occupation and had no prostitution? If so, how do you explain the
legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
Illustrated Encyclopedia)
Cindy
> Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
> American occupation and had no prostitution?
No, I am not. I am not complaining anything. However, those girls who
were taken to the US were fortunate. Those who were left behind in
Japan being pregnant had to go through the hell of discrimination. Just
an FYI.
> If so, how do you explain the
> legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
> government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
> the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
> recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
> wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
> the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
> Illustrated Encyclopedia)
>
Hawaii, Europe, and Africa, everywhere the US troops went, sex
industries were provided. (History Channel) However, how can you
complain? They paid for the service!
Ernest Schaal
wrote on 12/19/03 4:47 AM:
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>
>> Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
>> American occupation and had no prostitution?
>
> No, I am not. I am not complaining anything. However, those girls who
> were taken to the US were fortunate. Those who were left behind in
> Japan being pregnant had to go through the hell of discrimination. Just
> an FYI.
Let me get this right. The Japanese have legal prostitution for centuries,
and you make a guilt trip because US soldiers used those prostitutes? Get
real.
>> If so, how do you explain the
>> legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
>> government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
>> the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
>> recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
>> wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
>> the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
>> Illustrated Encyclopedia)
>>
>
> Hawaii, Europe, and Africa, everywhere the US troops went, sex
> industries were provided. (History Channel) However, how can you
> complain? They paid for the service!
And the Japanese troops didn't have a sex industry provided wherever they
went? At least the sex industry provided for US troops was voluntary.
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
>Ernest Schaal wrote:
>
>> Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
>> American occupation and had no prostitution?
>
>No, I am not. I am not complaining anything. However, those girls who
>were taken to the US were fortunate. Those who were left behind in
>Japan being pregnant had to go through the hell of discrimination. Just
>an FYI.
Sounds like a Japanese cultural problem to me. Next.
>> If so, how do you explain the
>> legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
>> government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
>> the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
>> recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
>> wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
>> the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
>> Illustrated Encyclopedia)
>>
>
>Hawaii, Europe, and Africa, everywhere the US troops went, sex
>industries were provided. (History Channel)
Well who could possibly dispute such a source?
>However, how can you
>complain? They paid for the service!
Brothels and prostitution existed in Japan long before the GIs turned
up. Next.
Gavin Bailey
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>> Japanese social history.
>
>I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
The Japanese fantasised about sexlong before 1945.
>daydreaming,
Guess what? They daydreamed about sex long before 1945 as well.
>and probably a lot of babies after the defeat.
How many would that be then, in total and as a percentage of all
births in Japan at the time? I assume you have some factual grasp of
the subject to inform your opinion.
>Western women
>were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?
How do you know? Have you tried both?
Gavin Bailey
jake
indeed..
The US introduced a nightmare
Rape Debate In Japan
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/world/main571280.shtml
TOKYO, Sept. 2, 2003
The rave parties promoted by a college social club calling itself
"Super Free" were always packed with hundreds of young women, and the
beach trips always booked solid.
To reel in the women, college student and Super Free leader Shinichiro
Wada promised them the opportunity to meet pedigreed young men at
Waseda University, the elite school he attended.
The highbrow mixing finally crashed to an end this summer, however,
amid accusations of lurid games, drunken free-for-alls, and ruthless
gang rapes by male members who turned the college-backed club into a
hotbed of systematic sexual assault.
Women alleged to police that Wada and his cohorts would orchestrate
boozing games, then cull the most inebriated girls and quietly whisk
them away to karaoke rooms, bathrooms or stairwells to be gang-raped.
When 28-year-old Wada and five other organizers were arrested on rape
charges in late June, public outrage underlined how attitudes about
sex crimes are changing in a society where victims traditionally
suffered in silence.
But the affair also shows how much hasn't changed. It has triggered a
boys-will-be-boys backlash that activists say only spotlights how
ingrained sexist sentiment remains.
"To some men, rape is still a fantasy, rather than a crime," said
Tamie Kaino, a professor at Tokyo's Ochanomizu University and an
expert on campus sex crimes.
Sex crimes in Japan have surged in recent years, with rape cases
jumping 40 percent to 2,228 in 2001, from around 1,600 four years
earlier, according to the National Police Agency. Offenses such as
groping and obscenity tripled to 9,326 cases in 2001 from a decade
ago.
The increase is due at least in part to a greater inclination by women
to report attacks to police. Since the Super Free scandal broke, more
of its alleged victims have come forward.
But most assaulted women in Japan still stay silent, said Shoichi
Kodama, a National Police Agency investigator. Often, they are accused
of having invited trouble, especially in the summer when women wear
light clothes. And rapists sometimes photograph the assault,
threatening to release the prints if the victims seek help.
Media reports also have a blame-the-victim flavor. Many of the women
attending the Super Free parties were depicted as rural bumpkins of
about 20 or a bit younger looking for city boys at brand-name
universities. Some commentators said they were simply out of their
league and lost control during the drinking games.
During a Parliament debate, lawmaker Seiichi Ota, a 57-year-old former
Cabinet minister, got a laugh when he quipped: "At least gang rapists
are still vigorous. Isn't that at least a little closer to normal?"
A few days later, a weekly magazine said Yasuo Fukuda, the Cabinet's
chief spokesman, told reporters at an off-the-record briefing that
women were partly to blame in the case of gang rape.
"The problem is that there are lots of women dressed provocatively,"
he was quoted as saying. Fukuda, who is also the minister of gender
equality, said his comment was taken out of context. "I meant
something completely different," he said, but didn't elaborate.
Yoko Yoshida, a staff member at the Tokyo Rape Crisis Center, said the
wink-and-nudge attitude is grounded in a popular culture that often
depicts rape as an act of passion, not violence, and that women who
resist don't really mean it.
Myths are perpetuated by an underground pop culture in which rape is a
common genre.
Rape-themed videos account for about a fifth of the porno offerings at
chain rental stores, with titles like "Idol Rape Crime File" ranking
among the top five in weekly X-rated sales. Popular comic books and
video games often depict rape fantasies where teenage girls, nurses
and housewives willingly submit to rapes and other sex assaults from
relatives, neighbors or even police. A 17-year-old high school student
arrested in June for allegedly raping 31 women reportedly told police
he was trying to re-enact scenes he saw in porno books and magazines.
"I'm afraid some men think rape is forgivable," Yoshida said. "When
something happens, women — the victims — take the blame."
Still, Yoshida said things are slowly changing. Police now show more
sensitivity to rape victims, and Yoshida thinks the Super Free affair
may accelerate the change.
"The case got a lot of attention, and I hope this will raise awareness
even more," she said.
Tokyo's staid Waseda University is already reacting. It has since
dissolved Super Free and before the summer break issued a warning to
students: "All sex without consent is considered rape, and it's a
serious crime. Don't be fooled by stereotypical rape scenes in dramas,
comic books and videos!"
jake
sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
Japan?
they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
prostitution..
Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
incited rapes?
Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..
Kevin Brooks
What the heck do "rave parties" today have to do with the US in Japan in
1945? And BTW, the Japanese had pornography long before we dropped in--take
a gander at some of their more licentious artistic depictions from the
1800's and earlier.
Brooks
<Snip>
jake
<broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
they were not "rave parties" at all..they tend to be asexuual
they were a pretext for the activation of predatory attitudes to women
that show little has in fact changed..
"When 28-year-old Wada and five other organizers were arrested on rape
charges in late June, public outrage underlined how attitudes about
sex crimes are changing in a society where victims traditionally
suffered in silence.
But the affair also shows how much hasn't changed. It has triggered a
boys-will-be-boys backlash that activists say only spotlights how
ingrained sexist sentiment remains. "
"During a Parliament debate, lawmaker Seiichi Ota, a 57-year-old
former Cabinet minister, got a laugh when he quipped: "At least gang
rapists are still vigorous. Isn't that at least a little closer to
normal?"
And BTW, the Japanese had pornography long before we dropped in--take
>a gander at some of their more licentious artistic depictions from the
>1800's and earlier.
rape is about power hatred and domination not sex..
and pornography is not eroticism..
The artistic depictions you speak of a a far cry from..
"Rape-themed videos account for about a fifth of the porno offerings
at chain rental stores, with titles like "Idol Rape Crime File"
rankingamong the top five in weekly X-rated sales.
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 6:19 AM:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> <broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>> Japanese social history.
>
> indeed..
>
> The US introduced a nightmare
My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
century (it was licensed by the central government).
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 6:28 AM:
Why do you continue to post such drivel. You admit that you don't know much
about Japanese history, and it shows. Commercial pornography and
prostitution were centuries old. Haven't you ever heard of shunga, or are
you ignorant in art history as well?
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 7:17 AM:
True, many popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies,
but that had nothing to do with the American occupation. Such depictions
were common in shunga of the Edo era, and Japanese art of earlier periods.
Why do you continue to post such anti-American nonsense? Next you will be
accusing America for rape and pillage of the Crusades?
Cindy
> sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
> Japan?
> they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
> prostitution..
>
> Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
> women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
> incited rapes?
>
> Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..
>
How do you explain the pan pan girls part?
jake
and quite civilized unlike the American import..
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 7:44 AM:
There was no "American import." It was already there.
My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>in article do64uvcimbnbon1bk...@4ax.com, jake at
>inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 6:28 AM:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:08:00 GMT, Cindy <cind...@attb.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>>>> Japanese social history.
>>>
>>> I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>>> your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
>>> daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
>>> girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
>>> first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
>>> were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>>> suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?
>>
>> sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
>> Japan?
>> they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
>> prostitution..
>>
>> Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
>> women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
>> incited rapes?
>>
>> Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..
>
>
<flame clipped>
>You admit that you don't know much
>about Japanese history,
I admitted no such thing..
I simply said except where it intersects with european history..
It strikes me you just want to boast about what you feel you know
>and it shows. Commercial pornography and
>prostitution were centuries old. Haven't you ever heard of shunga, or are
>you ignorant in art history as well?
you actually are comparing erotic art to the flood of
violent pornographic filth and chikld pornography America floods the
world with?
Hmmm
--
"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is
the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a
simple matter to drag people along, whether it is a democracy, or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship.Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders.
This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall
at the Nuremberg Trials After World War II
MIB529
> > Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It
> > seams like a small request to me.
> > It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
> > plane/bomb.
> >
> > Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
> >
> > ?
> > G
>
> Civilian casualities is always a touchy subject for the winning
> team. Just look at Irak and Afghanistan, somewhere between 10-20.000
> civilians have died as a consequense of the US and allied bombings,
> but it's hardly mentioned.
>
> As a reminder, 3,000 died in the WTC attack.
Not only that, but that doesn't include the number of babies who will
die from 'depleted' uranium-related birth defects. Or all the people
dying of cholera and other diseases because water-treatment facilities
were considered legitimate military targets.
What's bad is, the hijackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia; none were
from Iraq, and IIRC, they were all from 'moderate' Muslim countries.
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 7:51 AM:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:28:16 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> You admit that you don't know much
>> about Japanese history,
>
> I admitted no such thing..
> I simply said except where it intersects with european history..
> It strikes me you just want to boast about what you feel you know
The vast majority of Japanese history does not intersect with European
history, and that which intersects with European history you seem to get
consistently wrong.
>> and it shows. Commercial pornography and
>> prostitution were centuries old. Haven't you ever heard of shunga, or are
>> you ignorant in art history as well?
>
> you actually are comparing erotic art to the flood of
> violent pornographic filth and chikld pornography America floods the
> world with?
>
> Hmmm
It is quite apparent that you hate America, but that is no excuse for your
drivel like that above. American pornography plays a small part in Japan, or
for that matter in Europe. On the contrary, if you had any sense of history,
you would know that hard core pornography in American came from Europe,
rather than the other way around.
Do you know anything?
jake
In Japan perhaps..
In other counties not only are they not popular but they are illegal..
>but that had nothing to do with the American occupation.
It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
recognition..
>Such depictions
>were common in shunga of the Edo era, and Japanese art of earlier periods.
quit insulting Japanese artists by comparing them with such organized
crime and vice..
>Why do you continue to post such anti-American nonsense?
PLENTY of americans feel the same way..
I am not remotely anti-american..I am quite capapable
of distiguishing between a people and their political masters..
> Next you will be
>accusing America for rape and pillage of the Crusades?
and heres you boasting about your knowledge of history..
but seeing as you mention it..the current crusade is more salient..
Aftermath
>http://www.cosmik.com/aa-october01/walley76.html
When I saw the Towers burn and crumble on September 11, I was swept
with many contradictory emotions: on the one hand I wanted revenge
naturally, but against what? whom? who was guilty? I sat transfixed,
switching channels; I was enraged and I despaired. I wanted to kill
them all, men, women, children, dogs - and let God sort out the rest.
I railed against God, for the victims of this "holy war." Then I
realized that belief in God had nothing to do with it, that God was
made in man's image, and that belief in God (personal or a
state-mandated one) had been the cause of most death and destruction
throughout the ages of mankind. Indeed that Christian God has nothing
to do with this, that Islam had less. Being the Witness as I seem to
be as a cultural historian, I'd never been a big fan of Crusades,
nevertheless, in a mutated sort of way, it contributed to what I was
seeing in real time over and over and over again on NBC, CBS, ABC and
CNN. No one even brought it up, which was a pity.
Perhaps for the individuals who conceived this act, this was ultimate
payback for the Crusades--- America wasn't responsible for the
Crusades. The Christian West was in the Middle Ages for it was
concieved as a way for the second and third sons of the nobility to
find something to do with their lives. The crusade was thus devised to
take back Jerusalem from "the un-believers," the Moors. It devolved
into an excuse for wide-scale rape and pillage, it had nothing to do
with God, save for cementing the temporal power of the Catholic
Church. Along the way the Crusades destroyed a thriving Moorish
civilization in Spain which was rich in art, musical and mathematical
traditions, it slaughtered Jews as well as Moors, long ago and far
away. But how long can payback go on?
In truth, this attack wasn't against America, but against the world.
New York City has never been part of the United States in any way
shape or form, remember, it's a place where many nationalities come
together and live and co-exist, an international melting pot. No, this
attack wasn't against (or about) America, it was against the world. If
this had taken at the Strawberry Festival in Anytown, USA, THAT would
have been against America. But the individuals responsible were more
bound up in abstractions, generalizations and demonizations of the
Other. They were treating us like inanimate objects, as abstractions,
the same way as we have treated those with whom we have had
differences, whether in Southeast Asia or Haiti, just like the
British, the French, the Germans, Italians and Spanish have done
during their colonialist adventures from the 15th through 19th
centuries.
It was a heinous act, an audacious act; the media commentators were
talking about "brilliance," but I was starting to get my bearings
again. It's not like this was any kind of a surprise: we'd been
warned. It wasn't really a surprise "how" we were attacked, America
tends to live in a bubble and to leave highly important tasks to
people on minimum wage---like those who run airport security who think
that getting a job at Mickey D's is a step up. They are the same
minimum wage slaves who handle most of the transactions of the major
banking houses too. One didn't have to be a brain surgeon to know that
Logan Airport was a security sieve, a risk waiting to be exploited
too. America always closes the barn door after the horses have
escaped, that's nothing new because we live in a bubble, where
political geography isn't taught in high schools, where in certain
areas of Texas, students don't even know that Israel is a state, where
citizens don't think that part of citizenship is being informed about
foreign policy, save if foreign policy is considered what goes on in
the state capital.
But we're not the only country who lives in a bubble, even in certain
Arab states, authoritarian regimes themselves have their own extremist
problems to contend with, extremists they tend to pay off in the
mistaken belief that "our" terrorists aren't going to cause any
internal problems. It's better to let them de-stabilize other regimes
outside. But the individuals responsible for this heinous act went way
over the line, into the realm of outrage even in the countries which
covertly support terrorism for export purposes. And that's bad for
everyone's business, even for the nations who have legitimate beefs
with us for our blameless mindless consumer capitalist lifestyle.
So I was thinking about that and how there's only so far that payback
can go because it's an infinitely repeating cycle, it's like the Irish
and the British, or the Israelis and the Arabs, a self-reinforcing
feeding frenzy of hatred so ingrained it's part of the DNA. And if
we're going to talk about payback and who's guilty of what, if you're
going to get down to it, we're all guilty because we're all human and
human beings are imperfect creatures who kill, rape, pillage, maim and
hunt other men for sport; because war is a kind of sport, a kind of
game, even wars of ideology, especially wars of ideology, but a game
with purer rules.
Then I began to notice how this conflict was being framed, because
news is always framed, skewered to its audience's expectations, it's
what newspaper editors as well as world leaders and Presidents (or
their advisors on National Security) do. So we now have a "crusade" to
embark upon, an unfortunate metaphor considering what the Crusades
have done for inter-species relationships and international affairs
between East and West; we have a crusade "evil" more or less. But
those terms are relative according to which side of the ideological
fence one is on. And while listening to the President stirring up the
Senate and Congress and the nation a few days later, I started to
meditate upon America, and Americans, how most people genuinely like
Americans, but have trouble with America: what she is and what she
does.
Since the events of September 11, we have been surfeited with a new
surge of patriotism and nationalism. I wanted to examine what it meant
to be an American, and what the "American way" comprised. I wanted to
know what had been attacked. Again I was conflicted and confused: was
the American way the right to have a Starbucks or MacDonald's on every
corner? to shill for a culture which extinguished any vestiges of
cultural individuality? I've never been an enthusiastic supporter of
the MacDonaldization of world culture, it's something that the Islamic
as well as many third world countries find common cause to hate, for
glitzy consumerist America is indeed soul-destroying and a rogue state
of mind.
Or is the essence of America that we allow people the right to live as
they choose and to have equal opportunities for happiness regardless
of race, color, or creed, to live peacefully with one's neighbor. I
can understand how dangerous a creed this can be in countries run by
civil or religious authoritarian regimes. We'd export this, not our
goods, and we'd encourage our government to support the best that
America can offer in terms of technology for better, safer and
healthier living, without asking anything in return. The roots of
extremism grow in souls where there is a no hope, where disease is
rampant, where there is poverty and ignorance. It's not consumer goods
or lifestyle transplants that will win this "war," rather it's showing
others how to be self-sufficient and self-reliant regardless of their
religious or cultural beliefs, that's what we can offer. If we have
the wit or the foresight to do so.
Indeed, this is the challenge put out on the table by those
individuals responsible for the events of September 11. We don't need
more smart bombs, but we do need to be vigilant. As Americans
especially we have to make a concerted commitment to practice the
values we preach and to reach out in good faith open-handedly to the
world. No this was an attack against all men and women of good faith.
The journey we are about to undertake starts with a single step, the
gauntlet has been thrown down. We'd better be ready for this. That's
what I've been thinking.
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 8:15 AM:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:31:29 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> True, many popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies,
>
> In Japan perhaps..
> In other counties not only are they not popular but they are illegal..
So? What does that have to do with the American occupation? (By the way,
Japan has a lower crime rate than most Western countries, including the
United States.)
>> but that had nothing to do with the American occupation.
>
> It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
> that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
> recognition..
Your statement is based upon the faulty assumption that the depiction of
rape fantasies, pornography, and prostitution in Japan did not predate the
American occupation. Since that assumption is so easily proven wrong, I can
only guess that you cling to that assumption because of your hatred for
American culture.
>> Such depictions
>> were common in shunga of the Edo era, and Japanese art of earlier periods.
>
> quit insulting Japanese artists by comparing them with such organized
> crime and vice..
Organized crime and vice in Japan also predate the American occupation by
centuries. The yakusa were quite strong during the Edo era. As for the
Japanese artists, most of the woodprint artists made shunga, including
Hokusai. Hiroshige was exceptional in that he did not make shunga.
>
>> Why do you continue to post such anti-American nonsense?
>
> PLENTY of americans feel the same way..
> I am not remotely anti-american..I am quite capapable
> of distiguishing between a people and their political masters..
Your feeble attempts to make America responsible for problems in Japan that
occurred long before America was discovered shows a strong anti-Americanism.
jake
some suggest they were entirely responsible for
kickstarting the Americanization of Japan
http://www.ralphmag.org/AP/japan.html
A minimum of foreign exchange was needed for patents, raw materials
and advanced machinery to kick all this off. US procurements for the
Korean War ("a gift from the gods," said Prime Minister Shigeru
Yoshida), supplied hard currency, well before the Japanese export
industry was able to earn its own. Reputedly, the first $200 million
came from the earnings of Japanese "pan-pan" girls entertaining US
troops on R&R, from Korea.
Japan's geographical frontier, far from having contracted after
defeat, became, in economic terms, more open, when the US, the world's
richest market, agreed to accept Japanese products with no reciprocal
opening of the Japanese market. "What Japanese market?" one old Japan
hand sneered, surveying the shacks and sheds of its war-wrecked
cities.
The reviving Japanese domestic economy gave local manufacturers
beginners' slopes on which to practice: first to equip every home in
the country with an electric fan, an automatic rice boiler and a
motorized bicycle, later a color TV, an air-conditioner and a car ---
all easily recognizable as the seedbed produce of the Japanese
industries that would soon dazzle the world. War-razed factories were
rebuilt with state-of-the-art technology, obsolete industries such as
coal mining resolutely discarded, cameras and binoculars, where Japan
already had a war stimulated lead, financed out of domestic savings.
A minimum of foreign exchange was needed for patents, raw materials
and advanced machinery to kick all this off. US procurements for the
Korean War ("a gift from the gods," said Prime Minister Shigeru
Yoshida), supplied hard currency, well before the Japanese export
industry was able to earn its own. Reputedly, the first $200 million
came from the earnings of Japanese "pan-pan" girls entertaining US
troops on R&R, from Korea.
Every dollar earned was hoarded and husbanded, although Japanese
early-bird exporters were allowed to use part of their earnings to
import lemons, still big sellers in citrus-hungry Japanese winters.
Why were Americans so munificent to their former assailant? Japan's
geographical position, on the far side of an ocean the US needs to
control for its own defense, and close to China and Russia,
protagonists in the Cold War, supplied the sense of mutual advantage
on which lasting international friendships are built. Japan has
trodden its only important political frontier warily but, as long as
the Cold War lasted, with considerable success.
Apart from the martyred islanders of Okinawa, a fifth of whose arable
land is devoted to American bases, training grounds and golf courses,
few Japanese think of the US troops stationed in mainland Japan as an
army of occupation, or indeed think much about them at all. Fewer
still feel threatened by China or Russia. Americans have, in the
meantime, grown rather fond of Japan, an untroublesome ally with safe
streets and drinkable water, and unless the Japanese stop investing in
US Government Bonds, this mood may well last.
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>in article tdb4uvopfr5t0lf7k...@4ax.com, jake at
>inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 7:44 AM:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:25:43 +0900, Ernest Schaal
>> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>>> in article 3b64uvcip4obh6c5b...@4ax.com, jake at
>>> inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 6:19 AM:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
>>>> <broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>>>>> Japanese social history.
>>>>
>>>> indeed..
>>>>
>>>> The US introduced a nightmare
>>>
>>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
>>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
>>
>> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
>
>There was no "American import." It was already there.
sure rape videos and games were already there..
Pan Pan girls were already there..
an army of occupation was already there..
In your alternate universe perhaps..
>My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.
disagreeing with you does not make people "anti-american" Ernest
--
"Many people would sooner die than think;
In fact, they do so."
(Bertrand Russell)
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
I certainly know a self-opinionated arrogant bigot...who confuses
his own beliefs and values with democratic American values when I see
one
--
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an
invisible government owing no allegiance and
acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt
politics is the first task of the statesmanship of
today."
- Theodore Roosevelt, 19 April 1906
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 8:44 AM:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:48:12 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> There was no "American import." It was already there.
>
> sure rape videos and games were already there..
> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> an army of occupation was already there..
>
> In your alternate universe perhaps..
My god, you are ignorant, either that or extremely bigoted. Rape videos did
not exist during the American occupation, videos did not even exist them.
(You really should study history). As for videos, that technology came from
Japan, not the States, and there is no indication rape videos and games were
imported from America (besides your twisted imagination).
As for the "Pan Pan girls," they are merely a continuation of a
centuries-old tradition of prostitution.
>
>> My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.
>
> disagreeing with you does not make people "anti-american" Ernest
No, but it is anti-Americanism and bigotry to deliberately ignore hundreds
of years of history and charge that America is guilty for for problems that
existed in Japan before America was even founded.
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 8:48 AM:
> I certainly know a self-opinionated arrogant bigot...who confuses
> his own beliefs and values with democratic American values when I see
> one
Oh, you are looking in the mirror?
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>in article 13c4uv8sd9cmr7nkl...@4ax.com, jake at
>inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 8:15 AM:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:31:29 +0900, Ernest Schaal
>> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>>> True, many popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies,
>>
>> In Japan perhaps..
>> In other counties not only are they not popular but they are illegal..
>
>So? What does that have to do with the American occupation? (By the way,
>Japan has a lower crime rate than most Western countries, including the
>United States.)
Hikikomori:
Homicidal Teens of Japan
http://www.wdog.com/rider/writings/hikikomori.htm
Americans and Japanese are both fond of pointing out the difference in
crime rates. To many Japanese, America is seen as an outlaw nation,
bristling with guns. And for many Americans, the juxtaposition of
Japan's often ultra-violent entertainment with their low crime rate is
fascinating.
Japanese pop culture and crime statistics are often cited to defend
American entertainment when it is accused of inspiring violence. But
for anyone paying attention, startling crimes have a way of popping up
in Japan unexpectedly. There were the "Otaku Murders" of 1988 and
1989, where Tsutomo Miyazaki kidnapped and killed four girls of around
five years of age, reenacting gruesome scenes from his hentai
collection. The serin gas attack in 1995 is another notable incident
in the analogs of Japanese crime history. Perpetrated by the Aum
Shinrikyo cult, almost a dozen people were killed during the terrorist
attack.
I asked a Japanese friend of mine once, "Are there gangs in Japan?"
I've since learned that Japan has a long history of gangs, including
everything from high school motorcycle gangs to the Yakuza, but he
shook his head. He said there were no gangs, but in Japan sometimes
kids just go crazy. He told me the story of a boy who would kill
people on the street, discretely, and then hide in an alley to watch
the ensuing action. He was eventually caught with the murder weapon
near one of his crime scenes. This was several years ago, and I wrote
the story off as an urban legend.
Recently, however, there have been several articles published about
teenage boys committing gory crimes in Japan. Over the last year there
have been multiple incidents. A 65-year old woman in Aichi prefecture
was murdered on May 1, 2000. On May 3, a boy in Saga prefecture
hijacked a bus with a knife. He held a six-year-old girl hostage,
killed one woman, and wounded five others. There have been more
crimes, including knivings in people's homes, baseball bat
bludgeonings and matricide, budgeonings with hammers, and, just two
weeks ago, a 15-year-old boy on Kyushu crept into a house during the
night and attacked a family. All six family members were attacked, and
three died.
Incidents such as these have been reported in many newspapers and
online news sites, but I take the examples above from two articles on
the subject. Tim Larimer, a correspondent for Time wrote "Natural-Born
Killers?" Yuji Oniki, who writes for Pulp, a magazine devoted to manga
and Japanese popular culture, covered the events in his column,
"Nocturnal Emissions: Strange Crimes of Japan." Larimer and Oniki
differ in their takes on the matter, but both cite some of the same
reasons for the homicides.
Larimer covers the situation from a decidedly Western point of view,
comparing the crimes with the recent wave of US school shootings. He
claims that Japan's crime rates are the highest they've been in 32
years, and that violent crime among juveniles has increased 15% in the
first six months of 2000.
His article has a ring to it that sounds like, "See, America, we
aren't so bad!" He attributes the problem to hikikomori, teenagers who
withdraw from school, friends, and family. Larimer doesn't go so far
as to suggest that American teen shooters such as Dylan Klebold and
Eric Harris, the infamous Columbine students, were hikikomori, but the
implication is there. When it comes down to it, according to Larimer's
line of thought, there are just some kids who go bad. Larimer
interviews hikikomori, Japanese teens seeking to remedy their
reclusive problem, and their psychiatrists to bolster his view.
Oniki, on the other hand, insists that the recent rash of teen crime
is not so unusual, and he denies claims that youth crime in Japan is
escalating. He does admit, however, that these crimes are uniquely
disturbing, and that has captured the attention of the media and
public.
Oniki sees these crimes, and the growing number of hikikomori, as
evidence of serious flaws in the Japanese educational system. While in
the past studying for school entrance exams was called "exam hell,"
now parents see it as just a part of growing up. Many parents have
gone through the same stress when they were children, unlike the older
generations. There is not as much sympathy in homes for teenagers
studying for exams. In addition, more weight has been placed on kids
to get into good junior high schools and high schools than ever
before. The last decade of economic repression has also added to the
stress and importance of entrance exams. Often the stress renders
teenagers incapable of dealing with the outside world, and they are
reduced to becoming hikikomori.
Oniki advocates a change in the Japanese school system. He notes that
in Japan parents and teachers are trying to take a strict approach to
hikikomori. One family is even facing charges for killing their
teenage son because they believed he was plotting a crime similar to
those described earlier. This seems similar to the way we've cracked
down on students in our own schools. Students who seem on the fringe
of the group, or who wear certain styles of clothing are marked as
possible "bad seeds." Oniki writes that these actions will not remedy
the problem, and to really end the shocking crimes Japan must rethink
their educational system.
I tend to agree with Oniki, partly because I read an article last year
about three student deaths at Japanese schools. One school had a
problem with tardy students, so they began slamming the gates shut
when the morning bell rang. Teachers were required to stand outside,
ushering students in.
A girl was reportedly caught in the heavy, iron gate and killed
instantly. In another incident, two mentally disabled students were
caught smoking on school grounds. A teacher locked them in a work shed
for almost two days, giving them only a cup of tea each. When the shed
was opened, both had died from heat exhaustion. I read these stories
in an online news site last spring, and will have to try to find them
again. At any rate, it seems the Japanese school system is due for
change. It has produced success, but at what cost?
Jarg
States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.
And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
on women long before there was an American presence.
Jarg
"jake" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:doe4uv4h2pt1un0nt...@4ax.com...
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>> It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
>> that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
>> recognition..
>
>Your statement is based upon the faulty assumption that the depiction of
>rape fantasies, pornography, and prostitution in Japan did not predate the
>American occupation.
a straw man argument..and certainly not mine
mass production of rape and torture pornography to be
popular reading amonst teenagers was non-existent..
>Since that assumption is so easily proven wrong, I can
>only guess that you cling to that assumption because of your hatred for
>American culture.
you guess wrong..
--
Kindly address the substantive points or cite facts to disprove the
message before resorting to the childish stratagem of denigrating the
messenger..if you please..or else expect minimum response ...but do desist with your ad hominem.
Ernest Schaal
It is true that the Japanese consider America as a source of crime, but then
it sees China as a much bigger source of crime. In fact, it sees all
foreigners as a source of crime (although the rate of gaijin crime in Japan
is less per capita than the corresponding rate of Japanese national crime).
Is there crime in Japan? Of course there is, but then there is crime in
every country. The rate of crime is increasing, but it has a long way to go
before it reaches Western standards.
My big problem with your comments is not that there is crime in the States
or in Japan, but instead it is your string of bigoted garbage trying to link
prostitution, pornography, rape, and all sorts of evil to the American
occupation. Those problems existed in Japan long before the American
continent was even discovered.
As for your charge of American entertainment inciting violence in Japan,
that completely ignores the nature of Japanese entertainment. Do you know
ANYTHING about Japan, or Japanese society, or Japanese cinema, or Japanese
television?
While many of the American blockbusters do come to Japan, there is also a
strong history of Japanese cinema, and there is a lot of European films in
the theaters and on television. (One thing I quickly learned here was to
check the language of western films that seem interesting, otherwise I would
have to rely solely on Japanese subtitles.) Violence in Japanese cinema is a
long tradition, with masterpieces like Eki, and Fireworks.
I don't know why you hate America so, but your hate is so obvious.
Otherwise, why would you pretend that America is responsible for
prostitution, pornography, rape, etc. in Japan?
America is responsible for our share of harm in the world (no country is
without its share of guilt), but America is not responsible for everything
that goes bad in the world, no matter how much you hate America.
jake
wrote:
>There does seem to be a determination on your part to blame the United
>States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
>are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.
no..IMHO it is a gruesome synthesis..
the old imperial values were shattered for ever after the defeat and
occupation..To suggest otherwise is reactionary dreaming..
>
>And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
>from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
>to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
>on women long before there was an American presence.
of course not..
the outcry about the gang rapists being charged and the disgraceful
comments of politicians about it in the parliamentary debate
that clearly..
rape comics for teens as popular culture did not predate the
Americanization however..
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 9:10 AM:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:26:47 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>>> It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
>>> that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
>>> recognition..
>>
>> Your statement is based upon the faulty assumption that the depiction of
>> rape fantasies, pornography, and prostitution in Japan did not predate the
>> American occupation.
>
> a straw man argument..and certainly not mine
>
> mass production of rape and torture pornography to be
> popular reading amonst teenagers was non-existent..
Sorry Jake, but you really don't know your history. What do you think shunga
was? It was mass-produced erotic art that often had rape as a central theme.
As to the current mass production, that is usually of Japanese origin.
Instead of being responsible for this production, the American occupation
was very puritanical compared to Japanese standards.
>> Since that assumption is so easily proven wrong, I can
>> only guess that you cling to that assumption because of your hatred for
>> American culture.
>
> you guess wrong..
Then why do you continue to blame America for things it could not be
responsible for?
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 9:34 AM:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:09:19 GMT, "Jarg" <scotthar...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There does seem to be a determination on your part to blame the United
>> States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
>> are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.
>
> no..IMHO it is a gruesome synthesis..
>
> the old imperial values were shattered for ever after the defeat and
> occupation..To suggest otherwise is reactionary dreaming..
The more you write, the more I realize that you know absolutely nothing
about Japanese culture or Japanese society. While the old imperial
government was replaced with a more democratic one, much about Japan
continued to remain the same. True, there were changes, but not the type
that you seem so determined to believe.
Sexually, Japan as become less open than before the war. Prior to the war,
it was expected that a husband would have mistresses, or at least play
around. Prior to the war, girls were sold into sexual slavery by their
parents. Prior to the war, prostitution was legal.
I don't expect you to learn anything about Japan, because to do so would be
fatal to your cherished dream that America is guilty for everything wrong in
Japan.
>> And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
>> from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
>> to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
>> on women long before there was an American presence.
>
> of course not..
> the outcry about the gang rapists being charged and the disgraceful
> comments of politicians about it in the parliamentary debate
> that clearly..
The disgraceful comments of politicians reflect a pre-war mentality, and
cannot be blamed on America.
> rape comics for teens as popular culture did not predate the
> Americanization however..
What do you think shunga was?
I realize that you hate America with a passion, but your continuing in
trying to blame America for rape comics is really absurd.
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>in article 89h4uvkpesin90kng...@4ax.com, jake at
>inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 9:34 AM:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:09:19 GMT, "Jarg" <scotthar...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There does seem to be a determination on your part to blame the United
>>> States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
>>> are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.
>>
>> no..IMHO it is a gruesome synthesis..
>>
>> the old imperial values were shattered for ever after the defeat and
>> occupation..To suggest otherwise is reactionary dreaming..
>
>The more you write, the more I realize that you know absolutely nothing
>about Japanese culture or Japanese society. While the old imperial
>government was replaced with a more democratic one, much about Japan
>continued to remain the same. True, there were changes, but not the type
>that you seem so determined to believe.
>
>Sexually, Japan as become less open than before the war.
yeah right..
1,000 illegal pornographic tapes are produced in Japan each month - 35
new titles a day. (CATW Fact Book, citing Mitsuhiro Shimamura and
Joseph Coleman, "Pornography Easy to Find in Japan", AP, August 1997)
* One 'sex zone' in Tokyo, only 0.34 sq. km., has 3,500 sex
facilities: strip theatres, peep shows, 'soaplands,' 'lover's banks,'
porno shops, telephone clubs, karaoke bars, clubs, etc. (CATW-Asia
Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific,
1996)
*
In 1998, Japan was the world's biggest producer of child pornography
and the Parliament had recently refused to pass a law banning the
production of child pornography, citing "business reasons." (CATW Fact
Book, citing Poona Antaseeda, "Expert urges global law to end child
pornography on the Internet", Bangkok Post, 3 June 1998, citing ECPAT)
*
NATIONAL STATISTICS
* According to National Police Agency statistics, 40% of the over
3,000 pornographic Internet sites based in Japan contained images of
minors. In 1998, INTERPOL estimated that 80% of Internet sites with
child pornography originate in Japan. (US Dept of State, Country
Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)
* One third of all reported cases of prostitution are teenagers. (CATW
Fact Book, citing "Tokyo cracks down on teenage prostitution 'clubs'",
Reuters, 13 August 1997, citing 1996 National Police Agency Survey)
ADULT STATISTICS
* Every year, over 100,000 women, mostly Filipinos and Thais, are
sexually exploited in the sex industry all over Japan. (Committee for
a Safe Society, Matsui Yayori, Eliminating Trafficking in Asian Women,
www.alternatives.com)
* There are more than 150,000 foreign women in prostitution in Japan,
more than a half are Filipinos and 40% are Thai. (CATW-Asia Pacific,
Newsletter Volume 1.2, Winter 1998)
* 150,000 Filipina women have been trafficked into prostitution in
Japan. (CATW Fact Book, citing "Open sale of little girls at Tanbazar
brothel", Daily Star, 2 July 1998, citing BNWLA)
* Japan is a destination for trafficking in women from Philippines and
Thailand for purposes of sexual exploitation. Reliable statistics on
the number and origin of women trafficked to the country is
unavailable, but according to the Ministry of Justice 2.5 % of the
15,823 women deported in 1997 were prostitutes. (US Dept of State,
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)
>Prior to the war,
>it was expected that a husband would have mistresses, or at least play
>around.
and still is..
Prior to the war, girls were sold into sexual slavery by their
>parents.
and still are but now they are imported from other countries
>Prior to the war, prostitution was legal.
as it should be if only for regulation and public health reasons..
>I don't expect you to learn anything about Japan, because to do so would be
>fatal to your cherished dream that America is guilty for everything wrong in
>Japan.
thats your fantasy..
perhaps you confuse me with someone else..or more likely you say that
to anyone who disagrees with you..
>
>>> And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
>>> from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
>>> to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
>>> on women long before there was an American presence.
>>
>> of course not..
>> the outcry about the gang rapists being charged and the disgraceful
>> comments of politicians about it in the parliamentary debate
>> that clearly..
>
>The disgraceful comments of politicians reflect a pre-war mentality, and
>cannot be blamed on America.
sigh ..
that was exactly my point...
a synthesis of that mentality and American knowhow..
>> rape comics for teens as popular culture did not predate the
>> Americanization however..
>
>What do you think shunga was?
erotic art..
Shunga are erotic Japanese prints. Shunga literally means springtime
pictures.
The Tradition of Japanese Shunga Prints
Shunga prints were produced and sold either as single sheets or - more
frequently - in book form, called enpon.
The images on Japanese shunga prints are mostly sexually explicit.
Westerners would categorize most of the scenes as pornographic.
Sometimes the scenes depicted are covered with a blanket, and only two
lovers are to be recognized. In other words, some Japanese shunga
prints can be shown to minors.
Japanese shunga prints and books were bought for several reasons. One
was certainly for the fun of viewing sexually stimulating erotic
images. But they served also for the sexual education of young men and
women. It was even a tradition that the bride of a daimyo - a
high-standing feudal lord - brought a collection of shunga prints
together with their wedding furniture.
Which Ukiyo-e Artists Made Shunga Prints?
Japanese erotic art was made by all ukiyo-e artists. It was more
profitable than "normal" art. Few shunga prints however bear
signatures or seals. At times, they were subject to an official
censorship. In practice, restrictions in producing and selling erotic
shunga art, were never very strict. But most artists may have
considered it wise to publish their works anonymously.
>
>I realize that you hate America with a passion,
just because you keep repeating a slander does not make
it true..
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/19/03 10:41 AM:
And they were any better prior to the occupation? No they weren't. I gather
you haven't noticed the threads about comfort women and the attempts of them
to get damages for their plight during the war.
>> Prior to the war, it was expected that a husband would have mistresses, or at
>> least play around.
>
> and still is..
Boy, you don't know Japanese society at all. Most young wives would not
tolerate that type of behavior. There is an old Japanese saying: two things
got stronger after the war, nylon stockings and Japanese women.
>
>> Prior to the war, girls were sold into sexual slavery by their
>> parents.
>
> and still are but now they are imported from other countries
True, there is a strong sex market in Japan, and many are imported, but
unlike the war the entries in that market are usually voluntary. You have
not shown that the problem increased after the war and you have not shown
any causal effect between the American occupation and the creation of that
sex market.
Instead, all you have done is show that Japanese have sexual practices of
which you disapprove.
>> Prior to the war, prostitution was legal.
>
> as it should be if only for regulation and public health reasons..
You can't have it both ways. You can't blame say that America is responsible
for prostitution in Japan and then admit that it existed prior to the
occupation.
>> I don't expect you to learn anything about Japan, because to do so would be
>> fatal to your cherished dream that America is guilty for everything wrong in
>> Japan.
>
> thats your fantasy..
> perhaps you confuse me with someone else..or more likely you say that
> to anyone who disagrees with you..
Let me see, so far you have stated that prostitution, sex crimes, and
pornography were all America's fault.
>> The disgraceful comments of politicians reflect a pre-war mentality, and
>> cannot be blamed on America.
>
> sigh ..
> that was exactly my point...
> a synthesis of that mentality and American knowhow..
No, the know-how was there before American arrived. Or are you so racist as
to believe that Asians are incapable of creative effort in that direction?
Sorry to break your bubble, but Japanese shunga often portrayed rape,
bondage, and bestiality. Most of the shunga did not show scenes covered
"with a blanket." On the contrary, one common feature of much of shunga is
an exaggeration in the size of the male sexual organ. Bottom line: present
manga traces its roots to shunga, not American comics (which were tame in
comparison).
>> I realize that you hate America with a passion,
>
> just because you keep repeating a slander does not make
> it true..
If you don't hate America, then why are you so determined to portray America
to be responsible for things that they are not? You keep saying how bad
Japan is and how it is all the fault of that bad old America, but you
completely fail to show that American culture is at fault, even to the
smallest degree.
Steve Hix
Cindy <cind...@attb.com> wrote:
Economic opportunity.
Steve Hix
jake <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
> >>
> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
> >
> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
>
> sure rape videos and games were already there..
No, but they didn't appear until after the U.S. occupation.
> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> an army of occupation was already there..
Long gone before the videos first showed up.
> In your alternate universe perhaps..
Remind us, one more time, what the color of the sky is on your world...
Cr...@nospam.com
Look... dumbass... videos didn't even EXIST until after the
occupation - and since the Japanese invented the technology for both
videos and electronic games, it would be FAR more logical to argue
that *they* corrupted *us* with the stuff. They're sure as hell more
popular there than they are here.
But a logical and rational mind would not be trying to pin the
"blame" for pornograpy, rape, prostitution or gratuitous recreational
violence on EITHER culture, since even the most cursory glance at
world history makes it abundantly clear that every culture on the
planet has been plagued with those vices - and others - since the dawn
of recorded history.
Please... give it a rest.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Rosh
> Folks;
> By this time in WWII mega death was a fact of life in Japan. There
That was a fact of life in other parts of world as well.
Anyway, I would just say,
Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Enola Gay. They prevent usage of
nuclear weapons over half a century.
Lridge164
<inv...@invalid.com> writes:
>the old imperial values were shattered for ever after the defeat and
>occupation..To suggest otherwise is reactionary dreaming..
>
>
& mc donalds caused it all
Lridge164
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> writes:
>Then why do you continue to blame America for things it could not be
>responsible for?
>
>
bcuz he's really a far left wing american,
'stead of a limey
Lridge164
<inv...@invalid.com> writes:
>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
>attitude
>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review
>your
>>>> Japanese social history.
>>>
>>> indeed..
>>>
>>> The US introduced a nightmare
>>
>>My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
>>century (it was licensed by the central government).
>
>and quite civilized unlike the American import..
>
huh?
it still boils down to
legal tender bein' exchanged fer poontang
Lridge164
<scotthar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
>from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
>to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
>on women long before there was an American presence.
>
yep,
da japs made sex slaves outta korean women
in order to service jap soljers
durin' WW duece
*
but jake may argue dat americans' pre world war two influence caused da japs
to commit such such a dastardly deed
yanno, sum such shit like da US decimated
japan's economy back in da ' 30's lol
Cindy
> If you don't hate America, then why are you so determined to portray America
> to be responsible for things that they are not?
In the USA, it is a norm that you blame on someone else for your own
mistake, isn't it? Why are you so upset? You should be used to it by
now. American people are well aware of that themselves. If you get fat,
you sue the fast food restaurant. I saw one woman who had a fall and
had her ankle sprained over a water hose processing paperwork for
lawsuit to the apartment management. In the USA, nothing is your fault
but others'.
Probably it is because of the relaxed culture with too much freedom of
speech or whatever, the ethics are deteriorating. People don't do what
they have promised to do or just what they say that they will do.
That'll make them liars, but breaking promise is a common occurrence
sadly.
Ernest Schaal
wrote on 12/20/03 10:17 AM:
Cindy,
Please reread your message and consider if you would tolerate someone making
the same type of overgeneralization about all Japanese that you make about
Americans. For instance, a common problem in Japan is men sexually harassing
women on trains, and the situation is so bad that some subways have special
cars that are women only. Knowing that, would you tolerate a depiction of
all Japanese as hentai, even though a sizeable number are?
Steve Hix
Cr...@NoSpam.com wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:32:12 -0800, Steve Hix
> <se...@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote:
>
> >In article <doe4uv4h2pt1un0nt...@4ax.com>,
> > jake <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the
> >> >>> 12th
> >> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
> >> >>
> >> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
> >> >
> >> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
> >>
> >> sure rape videos and games were already there..
> >
> >No, but they didn't appear until after the U.S. occupation.
> >
> >> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> >> an army of occupation was already there..
> >
> >Long gone before the videos first showed up.
> >
> >> In your alternate universe perhaps..
> >
> >Remind us, one more time, what the color of the sky is on your world...
>
> Look... dumbass...
Craig, you might make some note that you're arguing against jake, not me.
I'm *not* the one arguing for corruption of Japanese morals by American
occupation troops, that was jake.
Cr...@nospam.com
<se...@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote:
>In article <et55uvo07225tqob3...@4ax.com>,
> Cr...@NoSpam.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:32:12 -0800, Steve Hix
>> <se...@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <doe4uv4h2pt1un0nt...@4ax.com>,
>> > jake <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the
>> >> >>> 12th
>> >> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
>> >> >
>> >> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
>> >>
>> >> sure rape videos and games were already there..
>> >
>> >No, but they didn't appear until after the U.S. occupation.
>> >
>> >> Pan Pan girls were already there..
>> >> an army of occupation was already there..
>> >
>> >Long gone before the videos first showed up.
>> >
>> >> In your alternate universe perhaps..
>> >
>> >Remind us, one more time, what the color of the sky is on your world...
>>
>> Look... dumbass...
>
>Craig, you might make some note that you're arguing against jake, not me.
>
>I'm *not* the one arguing for corruption of Japanese morals by American
>occupation troops, that was jake.
Jake is a dumbass. You appear to be reasonably sane. Sorry if
I appeared to be snapping at you. I was getting irritated and didn't
stop and count to ten before replying.
>> videos didn't even EXIST until after the
>> occupation - and since the Japanese invented the technology for both
>> videos and electronic games, it would be FAR more logical to argue
>> that *they* corrupted *us* with the stuff. They're sure as hell more
>> popular there than they are here.
>> But a logical and rational mind would not be trying to pin the
>> "blame" for pornograpy, rape, prostitution or gratuitous recreational
>> violence on EITHER culture, since even the most cursory glance at
>> world history makes it abundantly clear that every culture on the
>> planet has been plagued with those vices - and others - since the dawn
>> of recorded history.
>> Please... give it a rest.
jake
>On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:03:17 -0800, Steve Hix
><se...@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote:
>
>>> Look... dumbass...
>>
>>Craig, you might make some note that you're arguing against jake, not me.
>>
>>I'm *not* the one arguing for corruption of Japanese morals by American
>>occupation troops, that was jake.
>
> Jake is a dumbass. You appear to be reasonably sane.
"As we saw in the Philippine Islands and will see in Japan, those
soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines foster feelings of resentment
and eventually hatred towards the United States. The areas surrounding
our foreign military bases become cesspits of crime and prostitution
and thus it has ever been – the term ‘camp follower’ certainly
predates America. The common citizen of any land resents such
corruption and with good reason."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins15.html
Forget Pearl Harbor
by Jeff Elkins
Disney’s new film Pearl Harbor has been the subject of protests by the
Japanese American Citizens League (JACL), the country’s largest Asian
American civil rights organization, who fear it will stir old racial
resentments. The half-century old battle still has the power to raise
powerful emotions: The phrase ‘Remember Pearl Harbor’ remains an
American synonym for treachery and betrayal, and probably will
forever.
Unanswered questions abound regarding the treachery and betrayal
involved in the attack on the Hawaiian naval base; on one hand we have
the unalloyed propagandistic picture presented by American
traditionalists, on the other we have allegations concerning the role
of Franklin Roosevelt in actually provoking the assault to provide a
gateway for entry into World War II.
Interesting as those questions are, they aren’t the topic of this
column. Instead, let’s examine our relationship with Japan today, more
than fifty years after the conflict.
It’s a well-known story: After its devastating defeat in World War II,
Japan made a stunning recovery, rising to become the second most
powerful economy in the world, prior to a major slowdown in the 1990s.
During this period of time, Japan has annually maintained very low
military expenditures since the end of World War II; $42.9 billion in
1999, only 0.9% of its gross national product. This played no small
part in allowing Japan to concentrate on economic development.
A key factor that has allowed Japan to maintain such low military
expenditures is well known: The continuing military occupation of
Japan by the United States.
However, we may be seeing a new tide of nationalism rising in Japan;
Junichiro Koizumi, the new prime minister of Japan made specific
reference to World War II in his inaugural speech, decrying Japan’s
forced isolation prior to the war. Rare behavior indeed, for a
Japanese politician to speak so bluntly.
While Japan’s relations with the other nations of East Asia still bear
the scars of war; there are calls in Japan to reexamine the portions
of its Douglas MacArthur-written constitution that forbid a strong
military.
The prefecture of Okinawa remains a sore spot. Protests occur almost
daily, with the largest involving thousands of Okinawans who want US
forces off the island. Residents of the island have long argued that
with less than one percent of Japan’s land and one percent of its
population, they bear an unfair burden. Among US forces, the Marines
are especially hated and have been involved in some shocking criminal
incidents against island residents. However, the anti-base movement is
not restricted to Okinawa – growing numbers of younger Japanese openly
resent the presence of Gaijin, foreigners, on Japanese soil.
You can hardly blame them. Nationalism aside, it’s a wholly natural
reaction to resent foreign military overlords. It’s long past time to
rethink our military presence in Japan and in Asia overall.
As we saw in the Philippine Islands and will see in Japan, those
soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines foster feelings of resentment
and eventually hatred towards the United States. The areas surrounding
our foreign military bases become cesspits of crime and prostitution
and thus it has ever been – the term ‘camp follower’ certainly
predates America. The common citizen of any land resents such
corruption and with good reason.
We station thousands of troops in far-flung Asian outposts for no
purpose other than to maintain an American Empire. This empire
provides no financial benefits to the average American, in fact empire
drains our treasure, to the tune of trillions of dollars yearly.
Not only does empire drain our treasury, it drains our moral character
as well. Okinawa provides the perfect example; who likes to read about
an American Marine raping a 12 year old girl? And then to read that an
American general suggested that the Japanese were ‘wimps’ and that the
Marine in question should have sought out a prostitute. Actions such
as these have the effect of coarsening us as a people and surely can’t
be good for military morale.
A Free Republic would not require the vast military establishment we
maintain today. Our standing army (the founding fathers greatest fear)
could be small, enough to protect our borders, but not large enough to
oppress citizens. Our air and naval forces could be reduced as well –
kept strong enough to protect our shores but also able to project
power when needed. But as a friend to all and enemy to none, it
wouldn’t often be required.
We don’t need an Empire. It’s time to forget Pearl Harbor and bring
our troops home.
Cindy
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins15.html
>
> Forget Pearl Harbor
> by Jeff Elkins
<snip>
> Not only does empire drain our treasury, it drains our moral character
> as well. Okinawa provides the perfect example; who likes to read about
> an American Marine raping a 12 year old girl? And then to read that an
> American general suggested that the Japanese were ‘wimps’ and that the
> Marine in question should have sought out a prostitute. Actions such
> as these have the effect of coarsening us as a people and surely can’t
> be good for military morale.
Oh, yeah, it is always happening in Okinawa or any military bases in
Japan. I am so sick and tired of this type of news. It was even
dramatized in the TV show "JAG".
If you are in Japan and get involved in, say, a car accident with a US
service man, it's your lucky day; nothing will be done for the damage.
Military men are very responsible for their duty, but they don't care
about the local people and negative effects of their irresponsible
behaviors. They don't care because they don't stay there for a long
time. American service men's negative impressions build up and build up
among the locals; old guys leave and new guys arrive; new guys goof
around off base like old guys; they care nothing but themselves -- so it
seems.
jake
outrageous..
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=279932
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 at 02:58 JST
TOKYO — The United States asked Japan during talks in July and August
to allow U.S. officials to be present in all interrogations of U.S.
military personnel suspected of committing crimes in Japan, including
those arrested at the crime scene, Japanese and U.S. government
sources said Monday.
The talks on revising the criminal procedures for U.S. military
personnel in Japan under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)
collapsed in August without producing an agreement
SOFA governs the operations and management of U.S. forces in Japan. It
does not require the U.S. to hand over U.S. military suspects alleged
to have committed crimes until Japanese prosecutors indict them.
However, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by three U.S.
servicemen in 1995 prompted the U.S. to agree to give "sympathetic
consideration" to handovers of soldiers suspected of committing
serious crimes of rape and murder. (Kyodo News)
>
>
>
>
Cindy
Oh, don't bother, we are used to it.
> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=279932
>
> Tuesday, November 25, 2003 at 02:58 JST
> TOKYO — The United States asked Japan during talks in July and August
> to allow U.S. officials to be present in all interrogations of U.S.
> military personnel suspected of committing crimes in Japan, including
> those arrested at the crime scene, Japanese and U.S. government
> sources said Monday.
>
> The talks on revising the criminal procedures for U.S. military
> personnel in Japan under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)
> collapsed in August without producing an agreement
>
>
> SOFA governs the operations and management of U.S. forces in Japan. It
> does not require the U.S. to hand over U.S. military suspects alleged
> to have committed crimes until Japanese prosecutors indict them.
>
> However, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by three U.S.
> servicemen in 1995 prompted the U.S. to agree to give "sympathetic
> consideration" to handovers of soldiers suspected of committing
> serious crimes of rape and murder. (Kyodo News)
Do they think that pan pan girls are still on duty and can get away with it?
jake
you should not have to get used to it.
Their families would be deeply ashamed
if they knew what they were doing..
>
>> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=279932
>>
>> Tuesday, November 25, 2003 at 02:58 JST
>> TOKYO — The United States asked Japan during talks in July and August
>> to allow U.S. officials to be present in all interrogations of U.S.
>> military personnel suspected of committing crimes in Japan, including
>> those arrested at the crime scene, Japanese and U.S. government
>> sources said Monday.
>>
>> The talks on revising the criminal procedures for U.S. military
>> personnel in Japan under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)
>> collapsed in August without producing an agreement
>>
>>
>> SOFA governs the operations and management of U.S. forces in Japan. It
>> does not require the U.S. to hand over U.S. military suspects alleged
>> to have committed crimes until Japanese prosecutors indict them.
>>
>> However, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by three U.S.
>> servicemen in 1995 prompted the U.S. to agree to give "sympathetic
>> consideration" to handovers of soldiers suspected of committing
>> serious crimes of rape and murder. (Kyodo News)
>
>Do they think that pan pan girls are still on duty and can get away with it?
more and more people seem to be getting the courage to
protest about it..
Lei Xuizang
America has done good in the past, like fighting Hitlers Nazi Germany
but...
America has also done bad, like testing Atomic bombs on 250,000
American vets,
Bombing innocent villages in Vietnam
Killing American people and funding dictatorships in Guatemala...
Every country has a right to protect themselves,
and over seas bases should be no problem.
But
The Army men and young jocks should not be allowed to rob taxis,
destroy and brun property, rape women, and kill locals.
If the USA wants to keep this base it should clamp down on these punks
in the Navy and start sending these scum to Jail.
>
>
>
Cindy
> you should not have to get used to it.
> Their families would be deeply ashamed
> if they knew what they were doing..
I hope their families are that level-headed, Jake. However, their
families could be total rednecks.
> more and more people seem to be getting the courage to
> protest about it..
Yeah, generally, when people do something, they think about the after
math so that they tend to be very very cautious doing anything. It is
not uncommon to fear revenge. Maybe it's a cultural thing.
>
> Lei Xuizang
>
> America has done good in the past, like fighting Hitlers Nazi Germany
Indeed.
> but...
>
> America has also done bad, like testing Atomic bombs on 250,000
> American vets,
> Bombing innocent villages in Vietnam
> Killing American people and funding dictatorships in Guatemala...
>
> Every country has a right to protect themselves,
> and over seas bases should be no problem.
>
> But
> The Army men and young jocks should not be allowed to rob taxis,
> destroy and brun property, rape women, and kill locals.
Exactly. Just being an American doesn't mean his freedom is accepted in
foreign countries.
> If the USA wants to keep this base it should clamp down on these punks
> in the Navy and start sending these scum to Jail.
American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
when you will have to go to court.
America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
Unknown
>
>American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>when you will have to go to court.
>
>America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>
>
>
cannot see any good in other people too...like, it's always other
people who are terrible people, always suing others, on drugs,
overweight, abusers, speeders, gangsters etc etc. Are you really
the only 'good person' in the world?...seems so when I read your
post...
--
-Gord.
Ernest Schaal
on 12/21/03 8:53 AM:
> American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
> themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
> ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
> failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
> make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
> stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
> how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
> a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
> and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
> need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
> abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
> happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
> Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
> when you will have to go to court.
>
> America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
I find it amazing that you can make such stereotypes about ALL Americans,
when you condemn stereotypes about Japanese. Let us look at one of the
stereotypes about Japanese which are at least as valid as the ones you are
making about Americans. I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
extra income by prostitution than it is in the States. In addition, it is
common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
but also by blackmailing their clients; that trend really hasn't caught on
in the States. Applying the Cindy theory of stereotypes, it should be
permissible to call you a whore because you apparently believe that
overgeneralization is good. Are you a whore? Do you feel offended if someone
made the gross generalizations about you that you are so eager to make about
others?
We won't mention the phenomena of environmental pollution in Japan, or
violent attacks on homeless by school kids, or the trade in used panties of
school girls, or "parasite singles," or blatant racism against foreigners,
etc. Every country has its own problems, but most people are mature enough
not to make the broad generalizations that you make. Unfortunately, maturity
is not one of your virtues.
You have no future, Cindy. I feel sorry for you.
Ernest Schaal
esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp wrote on 12/21/03 12:54 PM:
Cindy,
It was only after I sent the above message that I realize that the question
about your feeling offended in being called a whore, using the Cindy theory
of stereotypes, was not a good analogy because you might not have any
grounds to be offended if, in fact, you do use prostitution as an additional
source of income, since that possibility is quite possible.
If you are in fact a prostitute, do you feel offended if someone make the
gross generalization about you, using the Cindy theory of
overgeneralization, and accused you of beating the homeless to death?
If you are in fact both a prostitute and a murderer of the homeless, do you
feel offended if someone make the gross generalization about you, using the
Cindy theory of overgeneralization, and accused you of feeling up women in
trains?
If you are in fact a prostitute, a murderer of the homeless, and a molester
of women, I give up. You are beyond redemption.
jake
The example is set from the top..
Given the current state of affairs and the scoundrels in the White
House the future is dark for young people everywhere..
I think once it hits home that these continuing wars..invasions..and
aggressions are a smoke screen behind which these creatures enrich
themslves whilst destroying the American economy and the value of the
dollar..America will change..
Ordinary Americans are decent enough and whist those rednecks you
mention do exist..most families would be appalled to think their
offspring did such things whilst overseas and want to be proud of
them.
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>in article 3i5Fb.6523$VB2.10387@attbi_s51, Cindy at cind...@attb.com wrote
>on 12/21/03 8:53 AM:
>
>> American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>> themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>> ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>> failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>> make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>> stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>> how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>> a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>> and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>> need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>> abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>> happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>> Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>> when you will have to go to court.
>>
>> America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
>extra income by prostitution than it is in the States.
and you know this how?
I was wondering what on earth an American was doing in Tokyo lecturing
the Japanese on how marvellous it was for THEM to have their cities
incinerated and telling them about their own culture..
now we begin to get an inkling..
>In addition, it is
>common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
"common" huh?
It may be common in your social circle to pay for sex with
schoolgirls..for most people it is not..
>but also by blackmailing their clients;
got stung did you?
serves you right..you should be in jail..
If you went anywhere near my daughters you might wish you were..
>Are you a whore?
NO she isnt but you are a pervert
get help..
PLONK!
jake
<esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
sickening filth..
<clipped>
Please ignore this peververted and depraved troll.
Ernest Schaal
inv...@invalid.com wrote on 12/21/03 1:37 PM:
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:54:33 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
>> extra income by prostitution than it is in the States.
>
> and you know this how?
Japanese newspaper and Japanese television. Not everyone is as ignorant of
Japanese society as you are.
If you ever bothered to learn about other societies, you might be surprised.
But that isn't your style, is it? Instead, your style is to accuse America
of introducing Japan to prostitution when Japan has had it prior to
America's discovery, and to accuse America of introducing Japan to
pornography when Japan has had a long history of that "art."
> I was wondering what on earth an American was doing in Tokyo lecturing
> the Japanese on how marvellous it was for THEM to have their cities
> incinerated and telling them about their own culture..
>
> now we begin to get an inkling..
My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
Many gaijin live in other areas besides Tokyo. You really are stupid, aren't
you?
>> In addition, it is
>> common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
>
> "common" huh?
>
> It may be common in your social circle to pay for sex with
> schoolgirls..for most people it is not..
That statement is true in the States, but unfortunately it is not true in
Japan. If you knew anything about Japan, you would know that. But then you
have shown that you know nothing about Japan.
>> but also by blackmailing their clients;
>
> got stung did you?
No, but it is a common story in the newspapers here. But then, you never dud
bother to learn about Japan, did you>
> serves you right..you should be in jail..
> If you went anywhere near my daughters you might wish you were..
Because I read the newspapers and watch the news I should be in jail? You
have a strange concept of the criminality of knowledge. Being informed about
Japan is not a crime, but if it were a crime you would never be guilty of
it.
>> Are you a whore?
>
> NO she isnt but you are a pervert.
How do you know she isn't? Do you know her personally, or are you simply
assuming she isn't, the same way you assume that prostitution, rape, and
pornography was never here prior to the end of WWII.
Ernest Schaal
The more I read you messages, the more I realize how racist and bigoted you
are. You make incorrect assumptions about a society you never bother to
study, the stand by those incorrect assumptions rather than learning from
your betters.
Ernest Schaal
esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp wrote on 12/21/03 2:18 PM:
Jake,
I feel I owe you an explanation of the above.
I stated that I consider you a racist, that is because of your assumptions
of the Japanese that they were incapable of developing prostitution and
pornography on their own, and that it was the "American know-how" (to quote
a previous message of yours) that accounts for their current scandals. You
might think you are being nice to the Japanese, by insinuating that they are
incapable of doing that by themselves, but it is extremely insulting to
assume that another culture doesn't have the smarts or capability to do
anything without their Western teachers. It is as if they are incapable of
having a culture without our help.
As for your bigotry, while you do have bigoted ideas about the Japanese, the
main target of your bigotry is America, which you assume to be the font of
all evil. You even blame America for problems that Japan had prior to both
the first contact with Americans, and the discovery of America.
This bigotry of yours is increased by an ignorance, of which you seem quite
proud. When I pointed out some of the major social problems that Japan has,
rather than learning to see if I were correct, you simply assumed that I was
not because it conflicted with your own stereotypes, including the
stereotype that the Japanese were somehow virginal prior to the war.
Although you are ignorant, and racist, and bigoted, at least you do not seem
to be a hypocrite. You are quite wrong in what you believe, stupidly so, but
no one has accused you of not believing your bigoted drivel. Cindy, on the
other hand is a hypocrite, because in this thread she has condemned in
others the very act she did herself, stereotyping an entire country because
of the actions of some.
Ernest Schaal
jjc...@hotmail.com wrote on 12/21/03 2:48 PM:
>
> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid:
>
>> My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume
>> that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
>
> Its a fair assumption for him to make. A
> geographic
> analysis of your IP indicates a 96% probability
> you are posting from Tokyo using hi-ho.
> Of course,the Matsushita Electric Industrial Co
> might have a LAN connecting from another area
> via Pana.net
> Judging form the themes and content of your posts,
> the way you speak to women ,
> and your easy acceptance of child abuse and
> pornography it is also a fair assumption you are a
> pervert.
>
> x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
> x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
> x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
> x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
>
Where did you come up with that probability?
Tokyo and its suburbs represents only a minor faction of the Japanese
population, and my IP is a national provider. Your 96% probability figure is
so suspect I wonder about the legitimacy of the figure. Did you get that
figure from somewhere or did you make it up? If you did not fabricate that
figure, please tell me what is the source?
Ernest Schaal
jjc...@hotmail.com wrote on 12/21/03 2:57 PM:
>
> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid posted
> ROTFLMAO
> you say it's normal for Japanese men to fuck
> children,
> that married Japanese women are all
> prostitutes,that
> Japanese schoolkids are prostitutes,call a Japanes
> woman in this forum a whore, regale us with
> perverted crap about used panties , then turn
> round and call HIM racist!
> I don't know about jail but you are sure someone
> the Japanese
> could do without in their country.
Jane,
My statement was that there is a current problem of middle school girls (and
high school girls) "dating" middle-aged men on paid dates/tricks. This
phenomena has been widely reported in the press and on the television new
and in television dramas and documentaries.
Another recent phenomena often reported in the Japanese media is the sale of
soiled female panties, preferably from teenage and preteen girls.
A third recent phenomena often reported in the Japanese media is the part
time prostitution by middle-aged wives as a source of additional income and
to relieve boredom.
The fact that you were not aware of all three phenomena indicates that you
have limited exposure to Japan, since it hard to avoid seeing these stories.
(Sort of like not hearing about what is happening with Michael Jackson in
the States or Ian Huntley in Great Britain.
As to calling Jake a racist, I know little about the person, but my limited
exposure to his messages show him assuming that Japan didn't know anything
about videos and video games, although Japan was the nation that developed
both technologies. That line of thinking assumes a low mentality of Japanese
(and Asians) which is truly insulting.
I know nothing about you except that you seem to know as little about Japan
as Jake.
Cindy
> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid:
>
>
>>My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume
>>that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
>
> Its a fair assumption for him to make. A
> geographic
> analysis of your IP indicates a 96% probability
> you are posting from Tokyo using hi-ho.
> Of course,the Matsushita Electric Industrial Co
> might have a LAN connecting from another area
> via Pana.net
> Judging form the themes and content of your posts,
> the way you speak to women ,
> and your easy acceptance of child abuse and
> pornography it is also a fair assumption you are a
> pervert.
LOL. I am looking for what an excuse he can come up with. Because he
is always right, and we are always wrong, right?
Cindy
> Given the current state of affairs and the scoundrels in the White
> House the future is dark for young people everywhere..
Besides the White House, one of main reasons is that mothers quit
nurturing their children. In addition, I notice there are so many war
movies recently.
> I think once it hits home that these continuing wars..invasions..and
> aggressions are a smoke screen behind which these creatures enrich
> themslves whilst destroying the American economy and the value of the
> dollar..America will change..
Make sure you won't be sued by anybody before you go to bed every night.
Since people sue you just to make a lot of money at once, you can not
leave a piece of trash outside. It's a scary feeling. Many people here
are obsessed by money.
> Ordinary Americans are decent enough and whist those rednecks you
> mention do exist..most families would be appalled to think their
> offspring did such things whilst overseas and want to be proud of
> them.
And they see all Germans as Hitler and all Japanese as enemies. Also
watching the FOX news channel raises a good ethnocentrism among American
peole.
Ernest Schaal
wrote on 12/22/03 1:25 AM:
Again with the gross generalizations and stereotypes. It is hard to believe
that this is the same person who only a few days before you were arguing
against making such gross generalizations. What a hypocrite you are.
Here are some true generalizations about Japanese:
There is a much bigger problem with bullying in Japanese schools than in
American schools, and it is not uncommon for the bullied child to commit
suicide to avoid the bullying (old continuing problem).
There is much more discrimination against the disabled in Japan than in the
US and there are fewer accommodations for the disabled. (old continuing
problem).
There is much more child prostitution in Japan than in the US, especially in
the pre-teen and teenage years (alarming current problem).
There is more random violence by adults against school children in Japan
than in the US, with the explanation by the attackers that they were
"agitated."
There is more pornography readily available in Japan than in the US, and
that pornography often includes scenes of violence, rape, murder, and sexual
acts with under-aged girls and boys.
There is more pollution in Japan than in the US.
There is more acts of violence against the homeless in Japan than in the US.
I love Japan, but I am not blind to its problems nor do I share your
tendency to generalize those problems to all Japanese like you generalize
Americas problems to all Americans.
Ernest Schaal
wrote on 12/22/03 12:55 AM:
Cindy, you know better than to buy into the figures by "Jane" (or is it Jake
in a new fake address). After all, you claimed to come from Japan, so you
know that some IP are national.
But then you also know than to make the recent over-generalizations that you
have been making recently. After all, you claim to be married to an
American, living in the States, so you know that those gross generalizations
are incorrect.
No one but you is saying that we are always right and you are always wrong.
Such gross generalizations are wrong, as you correctly pointed out earlier
in the month, but you don't practice what you preach. What a hypocrite you
are!
Jake may be a stupid, bigoted, racist, but at least he doesn't appear to be
a hypocrite like you. He apparently believes the garbage he posts. You, on
the other hand, know better.
jake
hmmm...
when is the last time you had a holiday Ernest..you REALLY sound like
you need one..
(I know I said I plonked you) curiosity got the better of the day..but
just as well as I see you are STILL abusing this poor Japanese woman..
your sure you are not taking advantage of this terrible state of
affairs in Japan you describe?
__
Trolls don't destroy groups, people who are either too stupid or too
stubborn to use killfiles destroy their own group.
They're like people who bitch about getting wet but insist on going
out in the rain without an umbrella, then they complain to the
weatherman and expect him to do something about it.
jake
Dont sit on the fence now ...
:>)
> but at least he doesn't appear to be
>a hypocrite like you. He apparently believes the garbage he posts. You, on
>the other hand, know better.
are you fixated on Cindy?
behave yourself man!
anyway if you call me a racist you dont know what a racist is..
Brojack..Keely and characters like this are racists..
--
A good place to start if we wanted to "clean up America" would
be to take the jews out of the picture in this country. If you
did that, all the rest would be easy to take care of. Cause its
always jews that start all the shit. They always are for all the
civil rights shit...but behind the scenes they wanna make money
off the niggers. They love communism and socialism. Most of the
hard core feminists are jewish lesbians who hate men. We would
just be better off without all this shit in this country.
The jews are the core, underlying problem in the USA. Everything
else is just a drop in the bucket.
Eric deeps...@aol.comgethelp (LostBoyinNC)