Clem Iron Wing
trad...@softcom.net
That is pretty serious stuff.
If this is so prove it, if not please cease the character assignation.
Also you folks sending me private e-mails on the subject should post
them where everyone can see them or cease.
Jim Bright Thunder
clem iron wing
place that would come from , is here in witicha, because i do say what i
feel like saying, and don't care what people say behind my back, they know
it , but yet i say in the open on our website, in the paper, on tv, what i
feel, if that makes me a fraud, and a criminal, so be it, but i would like
some to my they name on it, unlike my son i do know how to play the
game. clem
trad...@softcom.net wrote:
--
Learn of the true Indian culture and it's honor for you.
http://www.iwchildren.org/Story/upcoming.htm
clem iron wing
re: Hunter Health Clinic is a low-life Indian health facility that provides
inadequate care. I've used Indian Health Care all my life. One of their doctors
will prescribe you prescriptions, yet Hunter will choose only the ones they want
to have filled, leaving out such small items like antibiotics. How can a non
medical person judge which of these prescriptions should be filled without
consulting a doctor? I do have in writing exactly what I've spoken about, so
please explain where the lie comes in?
re: Indian Center, It is well known for being chicken sh*ts. Read their by-laws
sometime and the statements on civil rights. I've asked them why they have not
addressed the redskin issue. They claim to know the historic past of Native
Americans, so I put the question to them, would you publicly stand behind this
issue based on the fact that the term redskin was created by the european culture
to define and lump into one category native americans. During this period of
time, the term redskin was to show and express hatred. During that period of time
it was legal to kill Indians for bounty, and you can go on and on from there, but
I think you get the idea. As we all know in Wichita, the Indian Center will not
take a stand on this issue period. Instead they choose to allow the Indian
Guidance Counseler from North High School, home of the redskins, makers of the
"once a redskin, always a redskin" t-shirt, who publicly stated she was proud to
be a redskin (by the way, this is one of your so-call enrolled cherokees) they
allow her to take her little redskin kids down there and play Indian, rather than
educating them on how that word is used.
re: Yes, I have made the statement that the warrior society is also chicken sh*t
for not standing up for this issue also
re: If I have to explain to you the meaning behind names such as warriors,
Indians, Braves, you got more of a problem than I thought. Come out from under
your rock and look around, Native Americans all over this country are fighting the
mascot issue. Please point to where I've specifically attacked an Indian school.
Yes Clem is Clem, and it is understood in this community that I don't have respect
for Indians who will not stand up for their so-called proud heritage, their
idenity, their spiritual/religous beliefs. I do not hide, you will see me on TV,
in the paper, and on our website. You already know, I've done it before and I
will do it again.
I do not want respect or support from someone like you.
Clem
KDenn39 wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Who has called clem a fraud or criminal?
>
> He supports a fake (yet another)group who wish to be of the Cherokee people
>
> He has lied about the Hunter Health Clinic
>
> He has lied about the Indian Center in Wichita
>
> He has lied about the Indian Center Powwow Committee
>
> He has shown support to attack Indian kids who attend Indian schools who call
> themselves warriors, Indians or braves...
>
> So... clem is clem... with no respect from me... or support.
>
> You know... I am not the only Indian who feels this way about him... there are
> plenty of others in Kansas who feel even stronger than I
>
> You want to support him and help him... that is your choice... do not belittle
> those who know and do not want anything to do with him
KDenn39
Beau Bowen
>
> Jim,
>
> Who has called clem a fraud or criminal?
I think we need to backtrack before this gets ugly, because I think there
has been a mistake here.
I think Jim Bright Thunder got a post about Clem mixed up with a post I
made in which I called Robert Franzone a fake and a fraud.
I have never accused Clem Iron Wing of anything. I disagree with some of
the things he has to say, but so far he appears to be what he claims to be: a
non-enrolled Sioux elder. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please
present it.
We all have our opinions about the various viewpoints Clem espouses; but
disagreeing with a man's viewpoint does not mean that he is a fake or fraud.
I also think we need to be very careful about distinguishing between Clem
and Matthew Richter. In my opinion, Richter is a scumball who is using an
elder to cover his ass. I don't like him exploiting Clem that way.
So when Keely accuses Clem of lying, I don't think it's that simple. I think
Richter has said a lot of things and stuck Clem with the dirty end of the
stick.
It's pretty clear that Clem cares very passionately about his children; and
it's also clear that Clem doesn't have the best command of written English,
which can make it hard for folks to understand his points. I think we ought
cut Clem some slack and make sure we have correctly understood him
before we start jumping all over him.
What Keely calls 'lying' may simply be a poor command of English.
Which leads me to ask: Clem, what is your native language? I recall
reading where you dropped out of school in sixth grade, did I understand
that correctly?
Beau
clem iron wing
lived as an indian all my life, also any who know me know i do not like my
culture put down, by any one, after moving here about five years ago , i did
start fighting the mascot, here at a school where my children were to go .in
doing that some so called indians have said ,let it go we get along with the
white man, let him have his mascot who cares, , so i do have a problem with
people like that, but like i said i say what i feel in the open clem
Beau Bowen wrote:
--
clem iron wing
of any one down here, i hope that makes that very clear, clem
trad...@softcom.net
I've lived in the Indian World since 1933, I know local petty politics when I see
it.
What you are saying is that you do not agree with Clem, and you don't like him,
right?
The so called creator gives us all autonomy to do as we will.
Be as the so called creator and give Clem the same respect, let him live his life
and let the chips fall where they may.
Nothing more disgusting to me than pettiness, I get enough of that with the non
Indian posters to this group what with their white ass arrogance and racism
towards us.
If you need a fight go after them.
Jim Bright Thunder
KDenn39 wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Who has called clem a fraud or criminal?
>
trad...@softcom.net
Yes I thought you were talking about Clem when in fact you were talking
about Robert Franzone.
Anyway I think we all owe Clem an apology for this mess and whoever does
not apologize, we then shall know where they stand.
Clem! please accept my apologies for being confused about names. I do
not know of any of these people.
As for the local petty politics that you deal with, it is rampant in all
our communities. Nothin new!
Keep talking with us and ignore the small folk.
Jim Bright Thunder
clem iron wing
fighting with them, i will always be me, and as you said ,i will let the chips fall
where they may. thanks for the post. clem
trad...@softcom.net wrote:
--
clem iron wing
begain to understand people, and it is true some have a good heart, that's
all i need to know. so once again thanks clem
trad...@softcom.net wrote:
--
Beau Bowen
>
> let me say this about matthew, i will stand by him, that is more then i could say
> of any one down here, i hope that makes that very clear, clem
Perfectly clear.
But... why?
Beau
jeanine r pinkney
I'm sorry for not speaking publicly, sooner. I didn't want to embarrass
you by having a woman fight for you. But I wish people would be more
respectful of an elder. Doesn't mean we all have to agre. But I wish
people could learn to disagree without being disagreeable.
My two bits --
Dee aka "HotDog!"
sje...@rocketmail.com
respect is in order.
Jerry
In article <19981014232200...@ng68.aol.com>,
kde...@aol.com (KDenn39) wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Who has called clem a fraud or criminal?
>
> He supports a fake (yet another)group who wish to be of the Cherokee people
>
> He has lied about the Hunter Health Clinic
>
> He has lied about the Indian Center in Wichita
>
> He has lied about the Indian Center Powwow Committee
>
> He has shown support to attack Indian kids who attend Indian schools who call
> themselves warriors, Indians or braves...
>
> So... clem is clem... with no respect from me... or support.
>
> You know... I am not the only Indian who feels this way about him... there are
> plenty of others in Kansas who feel even stronger than I
>
> You want to support him and help him... that is your choice... do not belittle
> those who know and do not want anything to do with him
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Quohadi
I respect a warrior who fights for the things he believes in, there is
honor in this. There are always different points of view on many different
things, but one must never loose sight of honor and integrity.
I applaud the people who fight to remove the names of mascots, while it
sometimes does not seem like much, we must remember that those who came
before us sometimes felt shame because of these things.
I have never seen an Indian school hoist a banner that says the
mississippi white man, nor have I seen fly a flag that says Buffalo
Soldiers, but you sure can see the reverse when it comes to our people.
I went to 3 schools in my area, the middle school was the Warriors, the
jr. high was the Thunderbirds, and high school was the Tomahawks, when the
white kids on the wrestling team shaved mohawks on their heads to be cute,
some Indians used fireworks and blew up the locker bay where the lockers
were housed.
You know what these names do? They cause problems, they cause strife and
anger for children who should have no shame nor anger as a result of their
heritage.
Sometimes what is meant as honor to a people backfires, and is taken as an
insult. These mistakes should be brought forth and changed, we live in hard
times with children carrying guns and crap to school, can we really afford
to allow our public shools promote insult to any children?
People dressing up in chicken feathers and rubber tommyhawks running
around half naked in a basketball court screaming like a moron for a mascot
is not what I call honoring Indian people. The last time I seen something
like that I felt my blood get hot and I felt the fellow deserved an arrow
shirt. :o)
Subetu Ma!
-Quohadi
Moe Skeeter
[deleted]
>Nothing more disgusting to me than pettiness, I get enough of that with the
non
>Indian posters to this group what with their white ass arrogance and racism
>towards us.
Am I racist ?
You (OTOH) clearly are (white=ignorant ?).
--
TimW, Halfordian Golfer
"Guilt replaced the creel..."
Beau Bowen
> The information I have that he is so proud of is off his very own web site...
> did not need to come from Matthew, but even then, I doubt Matthew could wipe
> his ass without directions from clem.
I note that Richter's name is on the web site also. And Richter has posted
here, and I found his posts to be without merit. Clem has a few good points.
So I'm trying to sort out what I think Clem is responsible for, and what I
think Richter is responsible for.
At the moment I think Clem Iron Wing is a cranky old guy with a few good
points and a number of opinions I don't agree with. I can live with that.
But that doesn't mean I'm willing to feign stupidity. I too have noticed the
strange appearing/disappearing enrollment status.
But, I also noticed, you had an appearing/disappearing employment with
the Sheriff's department. Since you emailed me in private I understand that
situation, and don't worry about it. But you can't deny, some people were
pretty hot on you, for much the same reason you're hot on Clem. So, cut
him a little slack. Find the facts, and post 'em. Everything else is just hot
air.
Beau
clem iron wing
you were talking about cards, i said i don't carry one. i am enrolled on the
rosebud rez. i pointed this out and where to find it. if you are wondering if i'm
enrolled yes, give you a little example. the law states if you use indian health
service you better dam well have a enrollement number. i've use rosebud ihs, pine
ridge ihs, rapid city ihs, and here at hunter. if anyone thinks i'm not enrolled
all they have to is pick up the phone, call the us attorneys office here, ask for
monty deer, it is against the law to recevie ihs services without enrollment number
.i have always stated on here i dont like enrollement. being enrolled i can say
that.
clem
Beau Bowen wrote:
--
KDenn39
Indians... this is due to many years before you came to Wichita and you should
check your history on this issue...
Start citing cases of ill abuse... because right now I can see where the Hunter
Health Clinic has a libel case on you... also you should know Alfred Half Moon
is my Uncle...
I have used Hunter Health Clinic in the past, found the doctor I got very kind,
caring, and provided me with great care.
Also there is a OB/Gyn there who is Indian... so I am sure you are including
him in your attack here?
Lets not forget the fact that some of the Indians a few years back felt that
those who came into the clinic and claimed Indian blood should provide a CDIB
card... Hunter Health Clinic refused to do this because they did not want to
leave out those who did not have a CDIB and wanted to insure they had health
care... so with your argument, you shoot yourself in the foot... here is a
health clinic who supports part of your views on CDIB issue and you insult
them, and lie about them...
You do not like the Indian Center because they do not support the RNC... they
do not support your views... so your only responce to them is a childish
insult, and lies about what you feel is a issue of redskin... for the Center it
is not a issue because they do not promote or sell such shirts as you have made
claims.
You think that the Indian Center has control over school employees? Seriously?
Your issue is and should be with the school board, the officials you help to
elect.. unless you do not vote then you have no right to bitch... Your issue
is not with the Indian Center and you have tried to make them a target of your
hate.
The Warriors Society is of its own...I cannot give a comment about this due to
the fact I am not a member.. but if you like I will see if I can get one of the
society members to come here... you keep attacking people who do not come
here... to me that is being chicken...
Yes, I have foght the mascot issue... but I do not do it by attacking kids...
Yes, you do not carry respect.. in fact, when I have spoken of you to people I
have gotten laughes and chuckles.. You have no respect because you cannot give
any respect.. you only insult people... and if you think that makes a person
welcomed... think again...
Your site is full of the worst misinformation I have viewed in a long time....
You do not want respect from anyone clem.. you cannot give it.. why should
anyone return it?
KDenn39
Earlier you said you were not enrolled... now you say you are? Do I need to
locate that post and show you where you said you were not enrolled?
KDenn39
> Richter has said a lot of things and stuck Clem with the dirty end of the
> stick.
No Beau... my command of English is very clear on this issue..
Having lived in Wichita for much of my life I know this person is flat out
telling lies about Wichita, the community, the health care, the Indian
Center...
lou...@my-dejanews.com
I thought there was just, one "folk" that was calling Clem a phoney...I think
from the land of Oz or something can't remember...louette
> That is pretty serious stuff.
>
> If this is so prove it, if not please cease the character assignation.
>
> Also you folks sending me private e-mails on the subject should post
> them where everyone can see them or cease.
>
> Jim Bright Thunder
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lou...@my-dejanews.com
brick road, stay on the yellow brick road..and stay away away away away from
the witch and her monkeys...oops I'm getting carried away with
theatrics...sorry...louette (had to be done!) ha
In article <362533D2...@feist.com>,
"iron...@feist.com"@feist.com wrote:
> thank you jim, for letting me know a criminal, a fraud, their is only one
> place that would come from , is here in witicha, because i do say what i
> feel like saying, and don't care what people say behind my back, they know
> it , but yet i say in the open on our website, in the paper, on tv, what i
> feel, if that makes me a fraud, and a criminal, so be it, but i would like
> some to my they name on it, unlike my son i do know how to play the
> game. clem
>
> trad...@softcom.net wrote:
>
> > There are folks here on the ng calling Clem a criminal and fraud.
> >
> > That is pretty serious stuff.
> >
> > If this is so prove it, if not please cease the character assignation.
> >
> > Also you folks sending me private e-mails on the subject should post
> > them where everyone can see them or cease.
> >
> > Jim Bright Thunder
>
> --
> Learn of the true Indian culture and it's honor for you.
> http://www.iwchildren.org/Story/upcoming.htm
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
KDenn39
I never said that clem did not have a few good points... but understand... he
is attacking a place that does not deserve what he is doing.. he is attacking
people I know personally, people who are not online to have one idea of what is
going on here.. I would not be a friend if I shut up and sat down... and not
speak the truth of the matter as whole... I would welcome you here to show you
exactly what is going on.. take you to the Indian Center to locate the tee
shirts that is claimed to be sold there... even have you attend a Warriors
Society meeting... then you could see exactly what it is I am talking about.
Not only has this person tried to insult my friends... he has also made a
attempt of insulting my family...
I have never had a on and off again relationship with the department... I have
not been fired, I never quit... so therefore I guess I would still be a
employee... and it was not "many" people who were after me... just a few who
have since left the area but I know they come and read now and then... they
will be posting again when they feel they need to stir something or other up...
I would not even post to him.. as long as he kept innocent people out of his
arguments...
KDenn39
clem is from the land ofAhs for Oz was taken by Mo.... and though I reside in
in Ahs as well... I have never said he was a criminal or a fraud
clem iron wing
sje...@rocketmail.com
Maybe a few. Clem carries more honor and respect in what he says than I have
heard in a while. He says he and his family are from the Rosebud. He is
Indian, he shows it in how he speaks, and he says he is. Are you also the
internet spokesperson for Wichita, Kansas, the High School, and everything
else in Kansas? What I see you do here is continue to attack the PERSON and
try to character assassinate them. Who are you to say he is lying, just
because he doesn't agree with your opinions? I would bet that you could find
many other people there in Wichita that would agree with him, then you could
have several to agree with you, then several to agree with someone else. So
disagree or agree. Your character attacks and attacks on the people are
dishonorable and lack respect for the people you attack, yourself, and the
others on this list. It is old. Can you agree or disagree with me without
making it personal?
Jerry
In article <19981015214120...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
sondra ball
>
>At the moment I think Clem Iron Wing is a cranky old guy with a few good
>points and a number of opinions I don't agree with. I can live with that.
>
>But that doesn't mean I'm willing to feign stupidity. I too have noticed
the
>strange appearing/disappearing enrollment status.
Actually, it seems to be a vocabulary thing, and not necessarily an
enrollment thing. Clem keeps saying he doesn't have a BIA card. He also
keeps saying he is enrolled. He has never said he is not enrolled and he
has never said he has a BIA card. Maybe he burned his BIA card.
--
Sondra
http://www.jaguarsystems.com/sondra/
clem iron wing
cards, or any cards, now on the other hand all native americans, living in
that time were put on the rolls by the surpt. , do i have an enrollment
number, yes, dose the good old gov. look at me as indian yes, do i have rights
to use all indian programs, such as edu, health, and so on yes,do i get money,
from land use but the bia, yes. i hope this clears it up. oh one more thing, i
do not carry a card, by choice. clem
sondra ball wrote:
--
Tegan
Many Blessings,
Tegan :)
lou...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<706db3$q76$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > --
> > Learn of the true Indian culture and it's honor for you.
> > http://www.iwchildren.org/Story/upcoming.htm
> >
> >
>
clem iron wing
Teel Adams
> Hey! What's wrong with Witches? {G}
Nothing wrong with the Tegan, the good witch of the North West.
Shadowstri
In article <708cen$f6k$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>, "Tegan" <te...@pioneernet.net>
writes:
>Hey! What's wrong with Witches? {G}
>
>Many Blessings,
>
>Tegan :)
I second that !!
Hi Tegan.
Shadowstrider
de omnibus dubitandum
You can not hold someone down without staying down with them.
Nancy L Torrey - Hesse
Impudent Squirrel......
I address you...How
shameful for a young
woman to speak to an
elder in this manner, publicly...
Suggestion....Look in Mirror...
repeat the words below.....
KDenn39 wrote in message....
<snipped>
>You have no respect because you
>cannot give any respect.. you only
>insult people... and if you think
>that makes a person welcomed...
>think again...
>You do not want respect from anyone
<snipped>
KDenn39
There are many here of whom I have not "attacked"
When anyone brings up false tales about things and makes the Indian community
look bad... yes... I will attack it.
Your assumption of any kind of support clem would get out of Wichita is a
rather large assumption on your part.
I would not care if his family was from the moon... but if he moved into your
area and make up false things about your family, friends, and community would
you not speak out about it? I am sorry, I would never believe you would sit
down and roll over if he told you too.
No Jerry, this is not a attack upon you... but in order to know what the
situation is here, I too invite you down to see for yourself...
KDenn39
like to thank you for the compliment! :o) Yes I am a very young looking
grandmother.. would you not agree?
You have assumed clem a elder.... you have assumed wrong
lenapelady
Well, before you chastize Keely too much, perhaps you might want to consider
these things:
a. she has a right to her opinion;
b. before scolding her on the "elder' issue, let me ask--is Clem one of her
tribal elders? this is a fine point that many people don't quite
realize--your first duty is to *your* tribal elders. Sometimes, I think that
on the internet, an entire "cult" around the word elder has crept up;
without considering that different tribes have different ways and thoughts
on what constitutes an elder, etc. etc. etc.
c. are you of Clem's tribe that you can speak for him, and with authority
about "elder" respect due him with full knowledge from your daily life? and
i am not attacking you here--i'm just trying to be specific about some
things.
d. and, before you totally disrespect Keely, you might want to consider
this--regardless of whether or not Clem has advanced some ideas here that we
have (or have not) found value in, the fact remains that Matthew Richter
*especially*, the web pages put up by Matthew and Clem (with some blatant
propaganda and distortions--including, as we all saw recently, a faked
picture), and some of their activities have created some dissonance and
feelings of ill-will IRL (meaning: in real life) in Kansas and Oklahoma
Indian communities.
Keely's not the only one who has spoken in opposition to what Matthew
Richter and Clem Iron Wing have done and are doing.
To be precise: when I asked IRL about things I'd seen on their pages, one
reply that I got was aong the line of (about Matthew particularly)..."oh,
THAT idiot." Another person referred to Matthew as a "new age Nazi" with
conversation about how their ventures made it harder for Indians and Indian
groups to deal with communities; and how, frankly, many considered them
dangerous to other established Indian communities and, in the long term, to
other Indians.
So, perhaps Keely is only reflecting the views of others in the local
communities. Maybe you don't like those views or agree with them. Maybe
you're local too and if so, step up and add to the discussion based on your
personal knowledge and involvement. Maybe you don't like how Keely speaks.
But, in reality, do you have the right to chastize Keely as though you were
not only an elder, but one of *her* tribal elders? I don't think so.
Disagree with her as much as you like.But also grant her the right to
disagree with you--and to speak out on things that just might contribute to
a total dialogue here.
As for me, I was advised (heck, in one case *told*) just to stay away from
the Matthew Richter thing--even to the point of if I went to a meeting and
he was there to avoid him.
So, you see, that kind of sentiment is out here, in Indian communities in
this area.
Why can't Keely say what many people IRL, in these communities are saying?
You'll note that apart from maybe 2 posts, I've stayed out of this--because
I received what I consider to be legitimate, thoughtful, informed, and
concerned direction from respected tribal members (all older than me, BTW).
And I'm still not "in" it as I value the caring and advice that is given to
me.
And so, if you want to consider that Clem is *my* elder, and that he should
take precedence over my own Elders, and that I am being disrespectful by not
listening to him over the folks here at home--you're perfectly welcome to
consider me as failing in some sort of generic, pan-Indian Elder reverence
and genuflection. But to me, I am honoring my first and most important
values and people; here, within my community; and so therefore, those
outside that community who disagree with me, and possibly even disrespect
me, based on my adherence to that internal guidance, simply aren't terribly
important to me.
I rather suspect that Keely feels the same. I also suspect that she's going
to continue to feel as though she has the right to express her views; just
as you have your rights to do the same. lenapelady p.s.BTW, in chastizing
her as you did, did it occur to you that perhaps you are speaking to
someone older than you? If so (and I don't know), then it is *you who has
insulted an Elder!
--
No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings..Wm.Blake
Indian Territory--Named "Notable" by YAHOO! Internet Life
Please visit at me http://members.tripod.com/~lenapelady
Nancy L Torrey - Hesse wrote in message
<709asn$af1g$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Nancy L Torrey - Hesse
as Keely has stated she is in her 40's
that eliminates the age question.
I am not of Clem's people or Keely's
and do not live in Wichita. My sole
concern is as I stated....and I stand
by my suggestion
lenapelady wrote :
<snipped>
>c. are you of Clem's tribe
>Maybe you're local too
>Maybe you don't like how Keely speaks.
>did it occur to you that perhaps you are speaking to
>someone older than you?
coconut...@my-dejanews.com
"Quohadi" <Quo...@quackquack.com> wrote:
> Maruawe!
> I respect a warrior who fights for the things he believes in, there is
> honor in this. There are always different points of view on many different
> things, but one must never loose sight of honor and integrity.
>
> I applaud the people who fight to remove the names of mascots, while it
> sometimes does not seem like much, we must remember that those who came
> before us sometimes felt shame because of these things.
>
> I have never seen an Indian school hoist a banner that says the
> mississippi white man, nor have I seen fly a flag that says Buffalo
> Soldiers, but you sure can see the reverse when it comes to our people.
>
Forgive me for interrupting such a stirring display of self-righteous
indignation, but least we forget, there are teams such as The Fighting Irish,
The Boston Celtics, Minnessota Vikings, San Diego Padres, Vancouver Canucks,
Montreal Canadiens, New Orleans Saints, etc. And no one seems to feel it's
disrespectful or sacreligious to use these names. While I agree that people
can be disrespectful in the way they represent a group, I don't think the
mere use of a group's name is cause for accusations of racism or disrespect.
--Cal--
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
lenapelady
fine. lenapelady
--
No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings..Wm.Blake
Indian Territory--Named "Notable" by YAHOO! Internet Life
Please visit at me http://members.tripod.com/~lenapelady
Nancy L Torrey - Hesse wrote in message
<70bqdr$c3l0$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>I am a grandmother in my 50's,
>as Keely has stated she is in her 40's
>that eliminates the age question.
>I am not of Clem's people or Keely's
>and do not live in Wichita. My sole
>concern is as I stated....and I stand
>by my suggestion
>lenapelady wrote :
><snipped>
>>c. are you of Clem's tribe
><snipped>
>>Maybe you're local too
><snipped>
>>Maybe you don't like how Keely speaks.
><snipped>
>>did it occur to you that perhaps you are speaking to
>>someone older than you?
><snipped>
>
>
lou...@my-dejanews.com
have the choice...I think your *good*! BTW, Happy Holloween!! :))) louette
icle <19981016223601...@ngol05.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
clem iron wing
Fine, if no one finds those other names disrespectful, so be it. Point of the
matter is that Native Americans do find it offensive. We do not like being
anyone's mascot, or anyone playing games with our cultural idenity. We are real
people and we do mind.
Clem
coconut...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
--
AIMNJSG
have mascots wearing sacred items such as a crucifix when they run
around. Can you imagine if they did? Native American Mascots 99% of the
time run around with sacred eagle feathers on them... not real ones mind
you but symbols of the eagle feather... which would be the same as a
mascot running around with a "symbol' of a crucifix. You can not tell me
the Catholic church would not be up in arms.....
Lee Ann
Sorry I have been gone for so long. I had a major injury to my hand and
as you can tell by my typing I still have not completely recovered...
but the stitches are out.
Feel free to visit our web site at http://www.angelfire.com/nj/AIMSG/
ovation
Not all Indian people are upset with the terms of mascots... some Indians do
feel that getting food to the hungry, heat to the elders, coats to children,
and preventing a suicide has more importance over the issue of mascots.
KDenn39
I am glad to hear your stitches are out and you are doing better..
I will never understand why AIMNJ feels the need to attack Indian children at
Indian Schools both on and off the reservation for calling themselves Indians,
Braves or Warriors...
jeanine r pinkney
not near as important to me as these other things that you have listed
here. I guess we each have to pick our battles and between everyone
picking a battle we spread our efforts around a lot better.
Speaking of preventing suicide -- have ya'll seen my message about "Latkoa
Man Needs Ur Help"? Hasn't ben much response to that. So I"m reposting
it herer for those who missed it. Thanks -- Dee
"My grandson threatened to commit suicide and the family got scared and
fled to the police department asking for help. Instead my grandson was
shot six times. Who was trying to kill who? My grandson lives and the
truth will come out, thanks to our Dear Lord." Ida R. Quintana Foraci
Please pray for Keith First in Trouble. And please send a few bucks to
help with his hospital bills and bail money if you can. Here is his
story.
Keith is a young Lakota man in Denver, Colorado. He had been having
some problems for a while. On September 16 of this year, things got to
be too much for him, and he attempted suicide. Police responding to the
suicide attempt call shot Keith six times, wounding him critically. Why
they did this is not certain, but the upshot is that Keith is seriously
injured and is also facing charges. A very high bail has been set.
Sorry I cannot be more specific here. The family has been advised by
their lawyers not to discuss this in public. But the point is that a
young Indian man is in trouble and needs help from us all.
A trust fund has been set up for Keith's bail money and hospital bills.
If you can spare anything at all, please send your donation to the
address below. If you can find it in your heart to help this young man
and his family, please do so. Every little bit helps, no amount is too
small.
Also prayers are needed. Please pray that the bail is reduced, that Keith
is acquitted of all charges, and that he and his family receive the help
that they need. Please pray for Keith's recovery and for the healing of
the conditoins that led up to this actoin. If you smoke please pray for
him next time you light up a cigarette. If you do anything good please
pray for him that the blessings of your good deed go to help Keith and his
family. If you pray in any way, regardless of your religion or your way of
prayer, please include Keith and his family.
The family has asked for prayers and financial help at this time but has
not asked for any protests or other civil actions. Their lawyer has
advised them to be discreet at this time. So out of respect for this I
am -not- asking for any civil actions either, only for donations and
prayers.
If you donate to Keith's trust fund, I would like to send you some of my
artwork as a small token of appreciation. If you would like to receive
this artwork, just reply to this message with an address that I can send
them to.
Thank you
Dee
Keith First In Trouble Trust Fund
Act # 436 90-2
Diakonia Credit Union
1275 S Federal Blvd
Denver Colorado 80219
"My grandson threatened to commit suicide and the family got scared and
fled to the police department asking for help. Instead my grandson was
shot six times. Who was trying to kill who? My grandson lives and the
truth will come out, thanks to our Dear Lord." Ida R. Quintana Foraci
Please crosspost this message to other lists and newsgroups. Thank you.
"You don't 'prove you're Indian' by showing a card. You 'prove it' in
what you do for the People." -- Angel, the Holy Terrier
sje...@rocketmail.com
this is a negative connotation. Many here are decendents, not a slang term.
Could be one here. None remaining, maybe descendants. Padre's (Fathers),
don't know, Saints, let's see if you are a Saint you have passed on, not a
negative or demeaning term. Can't stand up for yourself, wouldn't if you
could, too busy. Canucks, I know Canadians that call themselves this, don't
know if it is a negative, they would have to be the judge that also.
Celtics, there might be a problem here, if it is offensive to these people,
they may wish to take a stand on this, up to THEM. Let's see if you are
Polish, and someone calls you a Pollock, you might take offense, right. If
you are Black, and some calls you a Nigger, especially from another race, you
get pretty mad, right. I believe that is offensive. What then if they named
a sports team the Birmingham Niggers, then a bunch of white people got on
T.V. with their faces painted black, fake afros, maybe some ehtnic attire
from Africa, waved a spear around, doing some ethnic type dances of the
African people. Then the camera zooms in on some fans, doing the same thing.
Then the announcer says" Look at that mascot, hilarious, huh?" Get the
picture? Can you see how at least some Indian people might offense to
someone dressed in simulated SACRED spiritual attire, in case you did not
know, feathers, animal skins, and other articles have sacred and spiritual
meaning. Some football team called the Redskins depicts a representation of
one of your people, in sacred type dress, dancing around a football field as
a MASCOT. So a little indignation might be felt by Quohadi, don't you think?
Maybe a different perspective than you have looked at before?
Jerry
In article <70cvqc$b51$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
coconut...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <705h1s$139$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> "Quohadi" <Quo...@quackquack.com> wrote:
> > Maruawe!
> > I respect a warrior who fights for the things he believes in, there is
> > honor in this. There are always different points of view on many different
> > things, but one must never loose sight of honor and integrity.
> >
> > I applaud the people who fight to remove the names of mascots, while it
> > sometimes does not seem like much, we must remember that those who came
> > before us sometimes felt shame because of these things.
> >
> > I have never seen an Indian school hoist a banner that says the
> > mississippi white man, nor have I seen fly a flag that says Buffalo
> > Soldiers, but you sure can see the reverse when it comes to our people.
> >
>
> Forgive me for interrupting such a stirring display of self-righteous
> indignation, but least we forget, there are teams such as The Fighting Irish,
> The Boston Celtics, Minnessota Vikings, San Diego Padres, Vancouver Canucks,
> Montreal Canadiens, New Orleans Saints, etc. And no one seems to feel it's
> disrespectful or sacreligious to use these names. While I agree that people
> can be disrespectful in the way they represent a group, I don't think the
> mere use of a group's name is cause for accusations of racism or disrespect.
>
> --Cal--
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
clem iron wing
of the main issues I have chosen to address.
Clem
ovation wrote:
> Clem
>
> Not all Indian people are upset with the terms of mascots... some Indians do
> feel that getting food to the hungry, heat to the elders, coats to children,
> and preventing a suicide has more importance over the issue of mascots.
--
clem iron wing
Sorry to hear about your hand, glad your back.
Clem
AIMNJSG wrote:
--
Teel Adams
> Clem
>
> Not all Indian people are upset with the terms of mascots... some Indians do
> feel that getting food to the hungry, heat to the elders, coats to children,
> and preventing a suicide has more importance over the issue of mascots.
Why are the two mutually exclusive?
Honor is honor
Teel Adams
renaming them the "Atlanta Redneck", they had a barefooted, corn liquor drinking,
sister marrying mascot. Good Satire.
sje...@rocketmail.com
Sometimes things happen that make any community look bad, happens everywhere.
Sometimes everybody may need to step back and take a look. You and he have a
right to see things differently. His experience may be totally different, it
happens. My point is ONLY, that his tribal affiliation should not make any
difference here. Whether he is enrolled or not should not either. His
comments were regarding Wichita, the High School, a PHS Health Clinic, some
individuals also. Now, if it were regarding specific business of your
Nation, I guess he could have an opinion, but that would be the business of
your council and your people. If he had a particular experience with the
Health Clinic, the school, that is his and his alone. Just like yours is
yours. You know, I like my town, the school here. Some people just hate it
and have had all types of problems, different experiences. They complain
they have had crime problems, etc. etc. Just recently, a female journalist
wrote a scathing article in a major newspaper about our little town. She
lived here a couple of years and said she had to carry a gun. The council
was talking about sueing her over it. Some people were very angry, others,
had had similar experiences. I could have looked at it as she was wrong,
because I had not had her experience, same with many friends, but I didn't
live in her mocs, don't see the same things she does. I certainly couldn't
truthfully say she was lying because I hadn't had the same experience. Who
knows, she may have been just royally ticking everyone off and they did not
treat her well, she could only see they treated her badly, not that she had
any part in it. Don't know. Just trying show respect for the Person and
their opinion. I can respect them and their opinion. I don't have to agree
with their opinion, certainly.
Thank you for your kind response.(o:
Jerry
In article <19981017022313...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
AIMNJSG
off the reservation? When has anyone from the AIMNJSG done this? Give me
specifics not accusations, because your words are slanderous.
We at the Aim Support group here have been very loud and vocal with our
State Board of Education we want the mockery of sacred items such as the
Eagle Feather removed from the classroom. I do not want my children
taught to disrespect another cultures sacred items. That is why I
started complaining about the construction paper headdress's. I went on
to complain about the reenactments of Thankksgiving and the ridiculous
homecomming celebrations these schools in our state have. The ones where
they name a homecomming squaw and have a "Shaman" do a dance at half
time... Cut it out! How is this threatening Indian Children off and on
the Reservation?
Have you read any of the speeches given at he New Jersey State Board of
Education? Or just assumed I was attacking every school across the
United States? You know what the saying is about assuming!
As for suicide.. We have addressed those concerns and issues with the
Standing Rock Reservation. Suicide is through out the country with
Native American children.. did you know that the drop out rate for
Native children in school districts is much higher in districts that
have a mascot such as the braves...warriors...redskins.... etc? Are you
aware of the suicide rates of Native students in those districts
compared to others? Did you read the speeches? did you look at the facts
and statics mentioned in the speeches? We are talking self esteem here
and how it is directly effected by seeing their culture and ancestors
mocked.
You choose not to take on this fight that is your decison and I will not
judge you for it. I will respect that decsion. I choose to fight for
respect of the eagle feather for those of my friends who are traditional
and do not want their sacred items mocked. I fight for my children so
that they learn that all cultures, people, religions need to be
respected and not mocked. That is what I choose to teach my children.
Will you judge me for that?
Lee Ann Brown
Kaleralee
indignation, but least we forget, there are teams such as The Fighting Irish,
The Boston Celtics, Minnessota Vikings, San Diego Padres, Vancouver Canucks,
Montreal Canadiens, New Orleans Saints, etc. And no one seems to feel it's
disrespectful or sacreligious to use these names. While I agree that people
can be disrespectful in the way they represent a group, I don't think the
mere use of a group's name is cause for accusations of racism or disrespect.
--Cal-->>
Maybe you would feel differently about it if the names mentioned above were
racial slurs, for instance, the Fighting Micks... I'd be hard pressed to find
derogatory terms for the rest of those teams, but perhaps someone less
sheltered could help out.
"redskin" is a derogatory term parallel with "nigger", "kike", or "cracker".
That's why people are offended, for the most part.
Do you understand?
-Kalera
clem iron wing
as a way to blow smoke, they are to many websites, that have addressed
that. clem
AIMNJSG wrote:
--
coconut...@my-dejanews.com
"Quohadi" <Quo...@quackquack.com> wrote:
> Maruawe!
> I respect a warrior who fights for the things he believes in, there is
> honor in this. There are always different points of view on many different
> things, but one must never loose sight of honor and integrity.
>
> I applaud the people who fight to remove the names of mascots, while it
> sometimes does not seem like much, we must remember that those who came
> before us sometimes felt shame because of these things.
>
> I have never seen an Indian school hoist a banner that says the
> mississippi white man, nor have I seen fly a flag that says Buffalo
> Soldiers, but you sure can see the reverse when it comes to our people.
>
> jr. high was the Thunderbirds, and high school was the Tomahawks, when the
> white kids on the wrestling team shaved mohawks on their heads to be cute,
> some Indians used fireworks and blew up the locker bay where the lockers
> were housed.
>
> You know what these names do? They cause problems, they cause strife and
> anger for children who should have no shame nor anger as a result of their
> heritage.
>
> Sometimes what is meant as honor to a people backfires, and is taken as an
> insult. These mistakes should be brought forth and changed, we live in hard
> times with children carrying guns and crap to school, can we really afford
> to allow our public shools promote insult to any children?
>
> People dressing up in chicken feathers and rubber tommyhawks running
> around half naked in a basketball court screaming like a moron for a mascot
> is not what I call honoring Indian people. The last time I seen something
> like that I felt my blood get hot and I felt the fellow deserved an arrow
> shirt. :o)
> Subetu Ma!
> -Quohadi
I hate to interrupt such a spirited display of political correctness, but it
might be a good time to recall that there are sports teams with names such as
The Fighting Irish, The Boston Celtics, Vancouver Canucks, Montreal
Canadians, San Diego Padres, New Orleans Saints and so on. And neither the
Catholic church nor other groups represented by these names are lodging
protests about their use.
While I can agree that some mascots are certainly demeaning, the use of a
group's name alone isn't cause for accusations of abuse or alarm. Think about
it.
son...@jaguarsystems.com
AIM...@webtv.net (AIMNJSG) wrote:
> What are you talking about? When have I attacked Indian Children on and
> off the reservation? When has anyone from the AIMNJSG done this? Give me
> specifics not accusations, because your words are slanderous.
>
> We at the Aim Support group here have been very loud and vocal with our
> State Board of Education we want the mockery of sacred items such as the
> Eagle Feather removed from the classroom. I do not want my children
> taught to disrespect another cultures sacred items. That is why I
I think the folks around here (in the Jersey area) are supportive of your
work. And anyway, ANY school in Jersey that has any sort of "Indian" mascot
is going to be a non-rez school since there is not a single rez school in the
state, and there is also not a single school in the state where Indians are
in the majority.
sondra
http://www.jaguarsystems.com/sondra
ovation
You e-mailed me a link to the AIMNJ home page... where I did take a look
around... there you encourage people to contact the schools of the mascot
issue which seems to be your "main" goal... then you offer a list of the
schools... I went to the link where you have them listed State by State...
the first State I went into was of course my home state.. Kansas... where
you have listed Kickapoo Indian School, they call themselves "Indians"...
which is a school on the reservation... after seeing several Indian schools
listed as one of your "abusers of Indian culture" I went to the Oklahoma
link... again, I found many Indian schools listed... so then I went to the
South Dakota link... again, more Indian schools listed... Now you tell me
Lee Ann... why are you against Indian kids calling themselves Indians,
Warriors, or Braves?
What I write is not slander Lee Ann... slander is spoken.. this is not
speaking here... however if you wish to peruse a issue of libel, which is
written, you better be sure you know what you are talking about.
Oh BTW... I have taken the time to speak to someone else with AIM about this
issue of mascots and of the Indian Schools with Indian kids in them which
you made a target with your page.. and even that member of AIM cannot see
your point.
now Lee Ann.. again.. why are you making a target of Indian kids in Indian
schools?
Oh, I went to Chillocco Indian School and I had no problem with being called
a Indian...
KDenn39
I did read your posts and always give my prayers to anyone who asks.
On the other issues I have taken time to do some thinking and waiting for a
friend from that area to contact me with more information..
KDenn39
I been called lots of things in my life :o) I really never have cared what
anyone else called me... but I do not like being called late for dinner...
AIMNJSG
I add a link to my signiture anyone can access it when ever I post or
write to people. Furthermore, you are speaking of a link from my web
page to a web page by ishgooda. I use that web page, Ishgooda's End
Racial Bigotry Now, for information about New Jersey schools. I offer
her web page to others to research their area. I have never addressed
any other schools or state boards of ed other then the ones here in New
Jersey. You are being judgemental of anothers persons web page, not mine
dear. You maybe upset that I link to the information. However, the
information is very informative I would think that anyone with half a
mind who was "willing" to take on the battel, would research their area
and know what schools were of the ones you are speaking of. I did not
compile that information but I am glad someone did, because it saved
alot of research time for me. I ask you again sweetheart, how am "I"
attacking Indian children on and off the reservation........ Linking to
anothers webpage for information is not a direct attack to anyone.....
do your research before you toss accusations.
AIMNJSG
AIMNJSG
clem iron wing
feel our past has no meaning. we must face the one's who feel our culture is
only fun and games, it is sad that, there are some indians who will let the
whites make our cultures a joke, just to be liked by the white boss. clem
Teel Adams
or the attributes from this "nickname" that they take? What is magic, of a
nickname? If you call your school the Warriors or the Doodlebugs, it is
still the same school, the same community, the same heritage. Why the hell
does anyone care, if their nickname is changed from the bloody scalps (ie
redskins) to Dragons or the Eagles?
Host Site for AIM-Detroit
This is posted as Ishgooda..not speaking on behalf of "AIM"...
There has been the beginnings of discussion concerning responsibility and
community accountability in regards to racial mascots. Who better has the right
to use them, than the people who "own" the name...and proudly carry the name of
Warrior, Indian, Brave, Chief..etc? But, what of their counterparts isolated in
urban or suburban public schools? These individuals end up targeted based upon
the name of their school mascot because they are OF the race from which the name
derives. They end up targeted because they are Native American and the
predominately non ethnic suburban school team is using the "them" as a mascot..
While the Native schools you mention DO have the right to use the ethnic
name..do they have a moral obligation to community not to do so? Where is
responsibility toward others?
Ishgooda
"ovation" <ova...@midusa.net> wrote:
+Lee Ann..
+You e-mailed me a link to the AIMNJ home page... where I did take a look
+around... there you encourage people to contact the schools of the mascot
+issue which seems to be your "main" goal... then you offer a list of the
+schools... I went to the link where you have them listed State by State...
+the first State I went into was of course my home state.. Kansas... where
+you have listed Kickapoo Indian School, they call themselves "Indians"...
+which is a school on the reservation... after seeing several Indian schools
+listed as one of your "abusers of Indian culture" I went to the Oklahoma
+link... again, I found many Indian schools listed... so then I went to the
+South Dakota link... again, more Indian schools listed... Now you tell me
+Lee Ann... why are you against Indian kids calling themselves Indians,
+Warriors, or Braves?
+What I write is not slander Lee Ann... slander is spoken.. this is not
+speaking here... however if you wish to peruse a issue of libel, which is
+written, you better be sure you know what you are talking about.
+Oh BTW... I have taken the time to speak to someone else with AIM about this
+issue of mascots and of the Indian Schools with Indian kids in them which
+you made a target with your page.. and even that member of AIM cannot see
+your point.
+now Lee Ann.. again.. why are you making a target of Indian kids in Indian
+schools?
+Oh, I went to Chillocco Indian School and I had no problem with being called
+a Indian...
sje...@rocketmail.com
Jerry
In article <19981019002418...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
clem iron wing
little magic, put the mascot in front of the american eye, all they will see is
some thing , used for fun and games, and like magic, the people are no more,
only a mascot, of fun. and once again who cares about the culture of the native
americans, it is for fun, their rights to live with pride.
is then based on the game. that is the magic they work in a child's mind, how
could anyone find honor in this? clem
Teel Adams wrote:
--
Matt Silberstein
>May I point out that The teams named the padres and the saints don't
>have mascots wearing sacred items such as a crucifix when they run
>around. Can you imagine if they did?
Pretty easy. Go to www.nfl.com. Look for the stylized crucifix. Guess
which team uses it. Go to www.pardre.com (official San Diego Padres
web site) and tell me what you see in the picture.
[snip]
Matt Silberstein
-------------------------------------------------------
You can't enslave a free man - RAH
No man with a family is free - Matt's corollary
Free men do nothing for humanity - Matt's second corollary
clem iron wing
care not for the suffering of their family past, some would say, when you
care not for,spiritural/religion, or culture or family past, is not your
future of the animal, for does not the human learn from caring? and the
animal lives only in the now, not understanding how it got here or where
it is going. clem
Matt Silberstein wrote:
--
Quohadi
Well maybe those groups do not mind, But if they did I would certainly
stand by them in the decision to protest it. No one's heritage should be
exploited for some sports team to generate revenue. There are some people
take offense at the name Savage because of the conotation of the name, but
if someone wants to disgrace himself by using a racist name put upon the
Indian as a means to deride , then by all means knock yourself out. You
would not be the first to contribute to stereotyping.
I suppose we could all ignore these things and allow them to continue,
but I am sure if the New Orleans Saints was putting a picture of Pope John
Paul II on the helmets and waving a flag with the papal seal that the
Catholic church would indeed sue the crap out of them. The name Saint is not
denoting anyone except those who has been deemed as holy, there is a great
difference between that and calling someone a Redskin.
We could leave the current world in it's present state, people could
continue to die on reservations from nuclear waste, and we can continue to
do nothing while the name of the American Indian people is mocked and
ridiculed, or we can stand for what we believe in and stop it.
The Indians baseball team is a prime example of this crap, they call them
the tribe, with Chief Wahoo and when the manager gets pissed the announcer
says hey look the coach is doing a war dance on the field! Pretty harmless
until they take a camera pan across the crowd after a run, idiots with
feathers dancing around in mock war paint shaking nerf war shields and
plastic arrows.
People are getting rich off of exploiting native tradition, someone is
making all this crap that the fans are wearing. And you can bet that someone
is eating quite well in his mansion somewhere while the Indians he is
mocking are living in poor conditions.
We could just continue to turn a blind eye and see what comes next. You
know.. when people do not make noise on something, through time it will and
has been exploited, and once it is in place, it is difficult to change.
-Quohadi
AIMNJSG
an example? I do not see a crucifix on the NFL link you posted. However,
I will say this I don't believe any sacred items should be mocked
regardless of the religion or culture and if the Catholic Church or
another denomination wanted to take a stance against the misuse of a
sacred item to them such as a crucifix I would be right beside them. Do
you think it is right to teach children to mock other cultures and
religious symbols, by having sporting teams, that children look up to,
abuse the symbols? What does this teach our children? That it is o.k. to
mock anyones culture and that there is no need for respect anymore? Our
children are growing up in a world that they are going to need to live
and work in a diverse enviroment? How can they do this when they are
taught that there is no need to respect their neighbors any longer? How
will these children grow up?
Matt Silberstein
Simply that the Padres and the Saints do use sacred items such as a
crucifix.
The whole use of mascots seems to me to try to use some magic: whether
it is getting the strength of a Lion or a Bear or the heritage of a
Steeler or a Brave. It is not, by itself, disrespectful. But it can be
and, in my opinion, it is disrespectful. But American is a
disrespectful society. Like much of life, that is both good and bad.
It lets up move forward, but it blinds us as well.
In alt.native I read this message from clem iron wing
<iron...@feist.com>:
Matt Silberstein
>The padre link did not work for me do you have another that would have
>an example?
No. I went to http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/ and that had a link
to the Padres which linked to http://www.padres.com/ That just worked
for me, so maybe you had a momentary problem.
> I do not see a crucifix on the NFL link you posted.
The Saints have a stylized cross on their helmets. The arms are equal
length, but it is a cross.
> However,
>I will say this I don't believe any sacred items should be mocked
>regardless of the religion or culture and if the Catholic Church or
>another denomination wanted to take a stance against the misuse of a
>sacred item to them such as a crucifix I would be right beside them.
I agree with you. I only wanted to point out that the disrespect does
extend to these other symbols.
> Do
>you think it is right to teach children to mock other cultures and
>religious symbols, by having sporting teams, that children look up to,
>abuse the symbols? What does this teach our children? That it is o.k. to
>mock anyones culture and that there is no need for respect anymore? Our
>children are growing up in a world that they are going to need to live
>and work in a diverse enviroment? How can they do this when they are
>taught that there is no need to respect their neighbors any longer? How
>will these children grow up?
I agree with you. Unfortunately it is easy to step over the line from
respect to mocking. I can pick a bear, lion, etc. (including,
possibly, some human group) as a totem and mascot and be respectful.
Or I can do the same and show disrespect. It is not *just* the name
and image that makes it disrespectful, it is how the name and image
are used. The Atlanta Brave are an excellent example of extreme
disrespect. But I can see a respectful use of Warrior or Brave as a
mascot. (By "see" I do not mean I have an example, I mean I can
imagine it.)
>
>Feel free to visit our web site at http://www.angelfire.com/nj/AIMSG/
Will do, but I don't think we are disagreeing.
jeanine r pinkney
Distribution:
Actually the Saints have an unoffical "mascot", a guy named Holy Moses.
He has a staff and a robe and everyhting. And some people say that the
reaons why the Saints are a poor team is cos God doesn't like their name.
Dee
Hollerin' from New Orleans
Matt Silberstein <mat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In alt.native I read this message from AIM...@webtv.net (AIMNJSG):
> >May I point out that The teams named the padres and the saints don't
> >have mascots wearing sacred items such as a crucifix when they run
> >around. Can you imagine if they did?
> Pretty easy. Go to www.nfl.com. Look for the stylized crucifix. Guess
> which team uses it. Go to www.pardre.com (official San Diego Padres
> web site) and tell me what you see in the picture.
> [snip]
> Matt Silberstein
Beau Bowen
>
> In article <705h1s$139$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> "Quohadi" <Quo...@quackquack.com> wrote:
> > Maruawe!
> > I respect a warrior who fights for the things he believes in, there is
> > honor in this. There are always different points of view on many different
> > things, but one must never loose sight of honor and integrity.
> >
> > I applaud the people who fight to remove the names of mascots, while it
> > sometimes does not seem like much, we must remember that those who came
> > before us sometimes felt shame because of these things.
> >
> > I have never seen an Indian school hoist a banner that says the
> > mississippi white man, nor have I seen fly a flag that says Buffalo
> > Soldiers, but you sure can see the reverse when it comes to our people.
> >
>
> indignation, but least we forget, there are teams such as The Fighting Irish,
> The Boston Celtics, Minnessota Vikings, San Diego Padres, Vancouver Canucks,
> Montreal Canadiens, New Orleans Saints, etc. And no one seems to feel it's
> disrespectful or sacreligious to use these names. While I agree that people
> can be disrespectful in the way they represent a group, I don't think the
> mere use of a group's name is cause for accusations of racism or disrespect.
And some of them have changed their names too. My brother used to go a
school who's team was 'the Fighting Presbyterians', they on their own
initiative decided that after 100 years, maybe that wasn't the best image to
present, and so they changed themselves to 'The Highlanders'.
In a completely different place, I graduated from a school who had the
Highlanders as a mascot. But it was handled very differently than these
Indian mascots. For one thing, they bought a real kilt and Scottish regalia
for their drum major--not make up some chintzy thing out of polyester
and face paint. And for another thing, the drum major studied pipe bands
and learned how to do it right--not dancing around making up some wild
imitation Scottish dance. The band also had pipers--young men and women
of Scottish descent who attended the school, wore their family tartans, and
played Scottish songs--not made up caricatures of Scottish music.
And for some reason, the fans didn't seem compelled to act out bad
imitations of Scottish culture--not one of those boys at school would have
been caught dead wearing a kilt or glengarry. No plastic glengarries in
garish colors sold to raise money for the team, either!
Yet when we deal with the Indian mascot issue it's the worst kind of insult
with no attempt at knowing, being proud of, or teaching about the culture
portrayed.
Instead they get some white guy with a bright orange chicken feather
headdress to act like a jerk on the sideline while people pat their mouths
and make woo-woo noises. Doesn't matter where the team is or what the
local Indians are, they usually get 'em up like fake Sioux. Though
occassionally them dress 'em up like fake Mohawk.
Beau
clem iron wing
Beau Bowen wrote:
--
Beau Bowen
>
> Lee Ann,
>
> I am glad to hear your stitches are out and you are doing better..
>
> I will never understand why AIMNJ feels the need to attack Indian children at
> Indian Schools both on and off the reservation for calling themselves Indians,
> Braves or Warriors...
I think Clem when he had a point when he said that non-Indian children in
other schools get so used to mocking their rivals who have Indian mascot
names that they forget that people are human, and mock all Indians.
So, maybe it is a point of pride for these Indian schools to have Indian
mascots, but do they compete against non-Indian schools who mock them?
So then those Indian children who are in the other schools are surrounded
by people mocking Redskins, that has to hurt.
Students are going to mock each other's teams, no matter what you do, so
maybe it would be better to pick some other kind of mascot, so the
non-Indian students don't grow up thinking it's normal to mock Indians.
I understand Indian students and Indian schools taking pride in their Indian
mascots, but I'm afraid that in the long run it just might be backfiring on
them.
I'm curious, how do Indian schools portray their mascots? What kind of
lesson, if any, do opposing teams and their fans learn about Indians based
on the presentations made by the Indian schools? Or do Indian schools not
play non-Indian schools?
Beau
KDenn39
Yes I am a sweetheart, but be careful because some would disagree...
If you link it, you support it. My thoughts and views of your page stand.
KDenn39
Is it not hypocritical to say "I can but you cant"? If you feel it would be
hypocritical then explain... if you feel it would not be hypocritical then
please explain why it is not.
Also I want it to be known that I do not support professional teams... but
grade school children are a different subject.
joshua geller
jeanine r pinkney <jr...@gnofn.org> wrote:
>Actually the Saints have an unoffical "mascot", a guy named Holy Moses.
>He has a staff and a robe and everyhting. And some people say that the
>reaons why the Saints are a poor team is cos God doesn't like their name.
"Saints" are the powerful Dead.
Should surprise no one at all that this team has never done really
well.
My best,
josh
clem iron wing
What's the difference whether it's kids or adults making a mockery out of your
culture?
Clem
KDenn39 wrote:
--
Teel Adams
> Ishgooda,
>
> Is it not hypocritical to say "I can but you cant"? If you feel it would be
> hypocritical then explain... if you feel it would not be hypocritical then
> please explain why it is not.
>
> Also I want it to be known that I do not support professional teams... but
> grade school children are a different subject.
As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.
Dang, not often you can work that in
AIMNJSG
You ask KDenn what is the difference between kids or adults and that it
is a mockery either way... I agree with you. There is one main point
however that many over look, it is the fact that children are not born
hating or with any racial predjudice, it is learned. They are taught
what is exceptable and what is not, they are taught by their parents,
elders and their teachers and school officials. So when their parents,
teachers and school officials say it is o.k.. to make fun of the Indian
to have a Big nosed braid wearing, tomahawk chopping clown dance at
school events and that this is what an Indian is.... then kids grow
learning that this is o.k.. and if it was o.k. at Martin Luther King
Elementry then it must be o.k.. for the Washington Redskins and so on...
see my point? Kids are learning that this kind of haterd is allowed by
those we trust to teach and guide our children. That is why I will not
stand for it. As a mother I have priorities and one is to teach my
children respect. I would be very proud of them if they grow to become
adults with open minds and a respect for all people. That is one of my
main goals as a mother. That is one reason why I will not stop until
the state board of ed votes on removing racist mascots from New Jersey
schools. Do you happen to have a list of groups that have made
statements against the Native American mascot? Or a list of states that
are reviewing or have suspended use of the Native American Mascot in
schools that you could post for me?
Thanks
Lee Ann
Beau Bowen
Exactly. The ones who grow up thinking it's all right to mock Indian
mascots go on to woo woo dancing and telling Indians we should feel honored
because Jeep named a sport utility vehicle after us.
Personally, my white side ancestors are feeling slighted, wondering when
in the hell they're going to see a Scotch-Irish sedan, or maybe a good ole
Cracker pickup truck...
Beau
AIMNJSG
but they do have them appear at School picnics.. school functions, open
houses, first day of school greeting the kids..... etc... my daughters
mascot is a Blue Dragon and that darn blue rat is everywhere.. (grin) I
had a picture of an Indian Mascot costume that is used in several
schools including elementry ones saved in a file and now I can not find
it. I have one I can fax to someone if they can scan it and put it up.
It is an Indian with an over blown head... braids a huge nose, an angry
expression and wearing buckskin..... hey I have no need to judge you
for your beliefs or thoughts Kdenn.. they are yours and I respect that
so why can't you respect mine? We walk different paths I choose to fight
for respect not judge... and I am working with my daughters school on
the issue of Thanksgiving. Can you beleave that one teacher thought
that making totem poles out of construction paper would be a great
Thanksgiving day activity because "all natives had them" she was trying
to find activities to replace the headdress.... LOL I am serious that
was what she had said..... everyone should take the time to care about
what their children and grand children are being taught... I admire
those that stand up for what they beleave in It seems here their are
alot of people who do stand up for what they beleave in..even you Kdenn
are you not standing up for your beliefs? So allow us to stand up for
ours.... because otherwise you are just sitting back in judgement. What
I am trying to do is educate the schools, the teachers on the mascot
issue and the eagle feather.... are you attempting to educate those of
us fighting this issue or are you attempting to judge us? You seem
angry, by the way you write, I am sorry that you feel that way if that
is your feeling. I admire you for standing up for what you beleave in.
Good luck to you
KDenn39
dress up as Indians...
The issue will come up about Thanksgiving.. for what the children will do is
try to be pilgrims and Indians during this time... and if anyone has a brain
they can contact the teachers and ask that it be shown in other ways... One
teacher I spoke to about this issue has changed her class... they now all bring
a food item, and have lunch together... I make them baked corn each year...
this is a point of sharing of what we have... not the whites and Indians
getting together.
KDenn39
KDenn39
Here is what I see... Perhaps in NJ you have grade schools who have "mascots"
at school functions, but in Kansas I have not see a mascot at the grade school
level. Please do not think this kind of thing is happening all over the
country with all grade schools. One school I was allowed to attend for a short
time was called the Mustangs... where I took my horse and was the mascot for a
short period of time... no one complained I was using a Quarter Horse and not
a Mustang.
When I was young and attending grade schools it was hard for me... Indian kid
in white school... many things caused a low self esteem... something I do not
feel would be fair for my children, or your children to endure... had the
school been called "Indans" perhaps I could have known in one way I was
important to the schools... lucky for me.. my mother moved me to a town where
kids of all colors attended school... no racial hate... later I was forced to
attend Chilocco Indian School. Have you ever attended a Indian boarding
school? When the Indian kids would go to town to shop there would be signs in
the doors "No Indians Allowed" or "No more than two Indians in at a time"
again, self esteem...
I do not know about you, but I do not want to raise my children to hate the
word Indian, Warrior, or Brave... I do teach my children what redskin means,
and where it comes from.. but in no way will it reflect upon my childrens self
esteem.
I am not passing judgement upon you... I just want people to stop and think
sometimes.
Yes I have a right to speak out and stand up for what I believe in... but in no
means does that mean I have to roll over for anyone who thinks they can step
all over me.
For many years I was afraid to speak out... but when I moved to a small town
and when the Sheriff came to my house to tell me that myself nor my small
children could walk on a public sidewalk... I began to speak out... I went to
court and let a judge decide if I and my small children could use a public
sidewalk... I won.. and I have not stoped speaking out since... I am not
afraid to speak out... it became a source of freedom... and yes... I do find so
many issues more pressing than mascots.
td...@skylands.net
Emulation.
Trika :(
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:10:09 -0500, clem iron wing
<iron...@feist.com> wrote:
>KDenn,
>What's the difference whether it's kids or adults making a mockery out of your
>culture?
>Clem
>KDenn39 wrote:
>
>> Ishgooda,
>>
>> Is it not hypocritical to say "I can but you cant"? If you feel it would be
>> hypocritical then explain... if you feel it would not be hypocritical then
>> please explain why it is not.
>>
>> Also I want it to be known that I do not support professional teams... but
>> grade school children are a different subject.
>
>
>
Dave
>The Saints have a stylized cross on their helmets. The arms are equal
>length, but it is a cross.
Nope, not a cross, but a fluer-de-leis <forgive my spelling, it is a
French word> which is patterned after a lilly I believe. Lived in Louisiana
for 20 years, and am quite familair with that symbol.
David Fire
Matt Silberstein
Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
Beadedweb2
>fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
:o) I wish my French was better! But I think Fleur is Flower, 'de' is of, and
I don't know what Lis means.... I always thought is was lilly. Does anyone
here speak better French than me? Hum, wait a minute! maybe my trusty
dictionary will help... yup, can't beat a webster's! 'Fleur de lis (also
lys)' = 1. lilly 2. a conventionalized iris in artistic design and heraldry.
course, it didn't translate 'lis' for me.
seeya! Chris
jeanine r pinkney
Distribution:
No, it's a fleur-de-lis, a stylised lily, an old French emblem. But the
team name, the Saints, some say that that's why they rarely have a winning
season, cos God doesn't lke that. SOme years they're so bad the fans all
wear bags over their heads.
There's a lotta superstitions connected with sports...
Dee
Howlin' atcha from New Orleans
Matt Silberstein <mat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In alt.native I read this message from "Dave" <df...@idir.net>:
> >
> >>The Saints have a stylized cross on their helmets. The arms are equal
> >>length, but it is a cross.
> >
> >
> > Nope, not a cross, but a fluer-de-leis <forgive my spelling, it is a
> >French word> which is patterned after a lilly I believe. Lived in Louisiana
> >for 20 years, and am quite familair with that symbol.
> >
> Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
> fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
> Matt Silberstein
Teel Adams
>
> No, it's a fleur-de-lis, a stylised lily, an old French emblem.
Also, on the City Seal of Louisville Kentucky, on the City Flag, and was a free floating giant Ohio River Fountain until it blew up last month. It is, of course, the Lily that was that was emblem of French
Nobility.
>
>
> There's a lotta superstitions connected with sports...
Stupid magic. Believing in obtaining power through naming. Silly primative white barbarians.
Beau Bowen
>
> In alt.native I read this message from "Dave" <df...@idir.net>:
>
> >
> >>The Saints have a stylized cross on their helmets. The arms are equal
> >>length, but it is a cross.
> >
> >
> > Nope, not a cross, but a fluer-de-leis <forgive my spelling, it is a
> >French word> which is patterned after a lilly I believe. Lived in Louisiana
> >for 20 years, and am quite familair with that symbol.
> >
> Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
> fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
Fleur-de-lie means 'flower of the field'. It was a symbol used by French
royalty, as well as many other families and towns and organizations,
including the Girl Scouts.
Beau
joshua geller
>Matt Silberstein wrote:
>> In alt.native I read this message from "Dave" <df...@idir.net>:
>> >>The Saints have a stylized cross on their helmets. The arms are equal
>> >>length, but it is a cross.
>> > Nope, not a cross, but a fluer-de-leis <forgive my spelling, it is a
>> >French word> which is patterned after a lilly I believe. Lived in
>> >Louisiana for 20 years, and am quite familair with that symbol.
>> Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
>> fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
>Fleur-de-lie means 'flower of the field'.
Dear Beau,
I think "Lis" is "Valley". It is the same word as the English
"Lee". Hold on is "Lee" "Field" or "Valley".
Now I'm definitely confused.
> It was a symbol used by French
>royalty, as well as many other families and towns and organizations,
>including the Girl Scouts.
Just so.
My best,
josh
Dave
Matt Silberstein wrote in message <3637eee2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>In alt.native I read this message from "Dave" <df...@idir.net>:
>>
>> Nope, not a cross, but a fluer-de-leis <forgive my spelling, it is a
>>French word> which is patterned after a lilly I believe. Lived in
Louisiana
>>for 20 years, and am quite familair with that symbol.
>>
>Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
>fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
>
Nope, as far as my Louisiana history lessons go it is not. I forget why
it was chosen but it was not ment to be a cross. I will have to check with
a friend of mind, who is more intested in Midevil France and England and
would know a little more about this than me.
Dave
Dave
Beadedweb2 wrote in message <19981020171832...@ng122.aol.com>...
>>Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
>>fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
>
and
>I don't know what Lis means.... I always thought is was lilly. Does
anyone
>here speak better French than me? Hum, wait a minute! maybe my trusty
>dictionary will help... yup, can't beat a webster's! 'Fleur de lis (also
>lys)' = 1. lilly 2. a conventionalized iris in artistic design and
heraldry.
>
>course, it didn't translate 'lis' for me.
>
>seeya! Chris
Yep you are right, when I saw your message it hit me! :) The Fleur de
lys, was patterned after a lilly, can't rember exactly, but has something to
do with a king or some battle victory.
Dave
Beau Bowen
> >> Are you sure it is not a de]rivative of a cross? I thought the
> >> fluer-del-lie was a cross. If not, my error.
>
> >Fleur-de-lie means 'flower of the field'.
>
> Dear Beau,
>
> I think "Lis" is "Valley". It is the same word as the English
> "Lee". Hold on is "Lee" "Field" or "Valley".
Nope, fleur-de-lis are not 'lilies of the valley' :-)
'lis' (pronounced 'lee') has a cognate in English 'lea' which is a broad grass
place, a field or meadow. It could be in a valley, it could be along the sea, it
could be anywhere there weren't trees :-)
fleur-de-lis are generally taken as lilies, and usually translated into
English as 'lily', though technically they could be any wildflower :-) But
the stylized representation makes it clear they are a lily or iris.
'flower of the field' is an English term, or Scots-English term for what we
call 'wildflowers' over here. Can't think of any... no wait, Pacific Iris
would fit the bill :-) Yeah, we do have wildflowers in America that look
that that. We just don't have them where I live :-)
Wish we did though, irises are my favorite flowers :-) Um, Siberian,
Pacific, Louisianna and Japanese irises, as well as the wild irises. Don't
much care for the bearded iris--too gaudy. But even a well chosen bearded
iris is a handsome flower.
Beau