How much of N.A. spiritual practice can a non-N.A. adopt?
AL D
Firstly, may I mention that I'm British, so forgive me if my questions
are somewhat naive.
In recent years, I have become aware that the spiritual beliefs and
philosophical traditions of many of the N.A. peoples hold much that
could be af great value to non-N.A. world - especially in the interest
of restoring a more respectful relationship with Mother Earth, and
saving the human race from a materialism-led shortcut to catastrophe.
There are, I have noted, some unique aspects to N.A. spiritual beliefs
that are not found in other world religions.
My question to you is: How much of N.A. spiritual practices can a
non-N.A. adopt without causing offense to the N.A. peoples? I can
understand the offense that could be caused by white people using
sacred N.A. traditions for financial gain. I can understand the
offense that could be cause by acting out N.A. spiritual ceremonies
without understanding them properly.
But regarding a non-N.A. person who sincerely recognises the wisdom of
certain N.A. spiritual practices and beliefs, and treats N.A.
spiritual traditions with suitable respect: Which aspects of N.A.
spirituality are considered 'free-for-all' and which are considered
out-of-bounds to even the sincere non-N.A. spiritually-oriented
persons?
Thank you.
Al D
Wayne George
perhaps you have heard the saying "now.you've opened a can of
worms"?....This may apply to your question here and now....so I hope you
have an "open mind"...
I'm going to hold back a bit to see what other responses you get...I don't
anticipate anything other than what I'm used to reading here on this
particular news group.
Wayne George
==========
"AL D" <wmth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:43974570...@news.individual.net...
Keely
Having over 500 Nations all with their own belief system, makes your
question rather hard to answer.
Basics would be believe in yourself, because in your heart, only you know
what relationship you want with your maker... call it religion, but consider
it personal... Common sense tells us what is right and what is wrong... not
to cause harm to others and not to cause harm to the land of which gives us
life.
Ceremonies would be a no no unless invited by a person from a tribe... you
can be totally accepted by people and invited into ceremonies and partake in
them.. but to do that you would need to be in the US.
I have read several of your posts and thank you for your openess and
honesty.
You cant learn these kind of things from a book... you really have to live
them and be part of them...
Keely
"AL D" <wmth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:43974570...@news.individual.net...
>
Flint_...@hotmail.com
BUT...when ya cain't sleep at night fer fear o da dreamz...den ya know
how real it iz...
considerin youz (britz) fucked yer neighborz and consequently killed
any opportunitee ya ever had at redemption to da Ert spiritz...DUH!
Flint_...@hotmail.com
NADA?, ZIP?, ZILCH?
go figure...
Flint_...@hotmail.com
dey let you do wha ever youz want...
Morfydd
Why would you want to look at NA spiritual practices when the original ones
here are more suited to this Island?
man_in_...@yahoo.com
AL D
wrote:
>>Why would you want to look at NA spiritual practices when the original ones
>>here are more suited to this Island?
Which spiritual practices do you mean?
Al D
Morfydd
Trusting yourself would be one.
Having faith in your ancestors would be another
Hushing up so you can hear them and yourself would be a third.
AL D
>>Al,
>>
>>Having over 500 Nations all with their own belief system, makes your
>>question rather hard to answer.
>>
>>Basics would be believe in yourself, because in your heart, only you know
>>what relationship you want with your maker... call it religion, but consider
>>it personal... Common sense tells us what is right and what is wrong... not
>>to cause harm to others and not to cause harm to the land of which gives us
>>life.
>>
>>Ceremonies would be a no no unless invited by a person from a tribe... you
>>can be totally accepted by people and invited into ceremonies and partake in
>>them.. but to do that you would need to be in the US.
>>
>>I have read several of your posts and thank you for your openess and
>>honesty.
>>
Thank you for your kind help. Thanks to the other respondees too.
>>You cant learn these kind of things from a book... you really have to live
>>them and be part of them...
I've hear others say that. Would you really say that none of it can be
conveyed via books? I have learned much about N.A. spirituality via
books that I hold as extremely valuable; things which I believe have
made me a better person with a better understanding and appreciation
of life. In other words a lot of great wisdom that I haven't found in
other cultures.
I've delved into a lot of different branches of Christianity, Buddhism
and Vedanta and others, but some of the N.A. spiritual concepts strike
a chord with me that other religions fail to do. In particular the
kind of way your spiritually aware people relate to the cosmos, nature
, the earth and other living things. What I've learned in this regard
has come to my rescue when no other tradition I know of was able to
provide it.
Yes, I hear you with regards the many differing belief systems. I'm
not sure which N.A. belief system I am tuning in to. Perhaps it's
some of the commonalities that run through several of them; I'm not
sure. I'm just adopting the bits I hear about that seem right for me
and leaving behind the bits that don't (for the time being, at least).
Thanks again...
Al D
AL D
wrote:
A fair and valuable comment. Thank you. You may be right... but isn't
the concept of "hearing ones ancestors" an N.A. concept? I think so.
Al D
AL D
>>Here's a list of the practices you can adopt:
That was the very first thing I adopted. ;-)
Al D
AL D
wrote:
>>perhaps you have heard the saying "now.you've opened a can of
>>worms"?....
Perhaps..
>>This may apply to your question here and now....so I hope you
>>have an "open mind"...
I do... more than most.
AL D
I'm trying to.... ;-)
Al D
Duane
Kris
----------------------Al D said-----------------------
Mike P
Why not follow your own peoples ways, and leave everyones else alone. No
I'm not Jewish or a Christian, but if you are one follow their teaching.
It's called Respect.
Mike
AL D
wrote:
>>Why not follow your own peoples ways, and leave everyones else alone. No
>>I'm not Jewish or a Christian, but if you are one follow their teaching.
>>It's called Respect.
Hi Mike,
Fair question. But what if I have more Respect for certain N.A.
teachings than I do for any other world teachings? What if I consider
'my people' to be whichever two-legged sons of the Creator happen to
have the same beliefs as me - even if their skin color is different
and they live on the other side of the planet?
AL D
Flint_...@hotmail.com
sheeet bro...youz didn't wander dat far from home didja?
i known Scots, Irish & Britz wit a better sense...
POOH!
Flint_...@hotmail.com
maybe not only even...
Mike P
Then you have no people or respect. You have only yourself, and that's
all you will ever have if you follow that way. For my self my People are
my Family. Their Culture is mine. Their belief is mine. I am who I am
not by birth or a drop of blood, but because of the people I was born
from and born to. I could no more be something else than a tree can be a
pig.
Mike
AL D
>>"hearing ones ancestors" iz human...
I'm willing to believe you. People here seem to have totally forgotten
such practices (probably sevral hundred years ago) But then, most
folks here don't really believe in anything beyond death. They think
when you die that's the end of you and your spirit - if indeed you
ever had one... :)
Al D
AL D
wrote:
I see what you are saying. I don't feel as though I am trying to be
someone/something that I am not, though - any more than would a N.A.
who chooses to become a Christian. I feel that the human race is my
family. I don't feel any special kinship for my next-door-neigbour
just because he's from the same culture. One of the best friends I
ever had was an elderly Cherokee woman I knew and cared for when I
lived in Florida. We treated each other just like we were kin. Yet we
came from very different cultures.
Al
ken...@islandnet.com
The most common answer you will get, after total rejection, is to go
live with the people. Native ceremonies, even the most innocuous, are
for natives only. Curtis took movies of native ceremonies to preserve
them for posterity. Except the natives danced backwards, invented
movements, wore inappropriate dress etc. Curtis was delighted. You
will find nothing in literature except the most general explanations of
ceremonies and beliefs. My elder has many people come to his sweats.
There are many books on sweats that you can buy. His sweats, like any
religious ceremony, follow a pattern. The pattern depends on the
purpose of that ceremony but with the twist that each is tailored to
the participants. How that sweat is performed depends upon whether
there are whites present or just natives. If there are only natives
present how traditional are they? I'm not even sure how "traditional"
he thinks I am but he seems to think I have promise. A people are
nothing but the sum of their ceremonies. The ceremonies of the north
american peoples have been taken by force, by corruption and lately by
flattery. When the ceremonies have all been taken, the people will be
gone.
If you came to north america you will be able to find and attend
many native ceremonies and receive native teachings. There are many who
make a living at it. I can only say that if it costs money it is
worthless. If it is painless, it is worthless. If it does not entail
sacrifice, it is worthless.
Duane
but have never found any reason to believe otherwise about my ancestors.
Sometimes I feel their presence is so thick I can cut it with a knife. That
is just me, and it doesn't come from any other belief system that I'm aware
of and I've never understood how it could be any other way.
Just my thoughts.............
Kris
----------------------Al D said-----------------------------
redb...@bigmailbox.net
think that it is not just NDN.
aozo...@aol.com
> den gin...if'n ya give da AIMz enough buck$...
>
> dey let you do wha ever youz want...
LOL
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/features/spir-genocide.html
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/features/native.html
I am sure Flint will pick off the ones by Ward Churchill and Russel
Means!
AL D
>>On a more serious note, and speaking for myself, I am not Native American
>>but have never found any reason to believe otherwise about my ancestors.
>>Sometimes I feel their presence is so thick I can cut it with a knife. That
>>is just me, and it doesn't come from any other belief system that I'm aware
>>of and I've never understood how it could be any other way.
>>
>>Just my thoughts.............
>>
>>Kris
Yes. Actually, I now recall that some of the Chinese peoples talk or
pray to their ancestors, IIRC, so I guess it's not unique to NA
people. It's an ability I would like to learn. I will try to listen
out for them. It would really help if I knew what I was listening out
for though.... It wouldn't surprise me if all our ancestors have gone
away... ever since they realised that none of their living descendents
were ever going to listen to them or try to talk to them!
AL D
AL D
<redb...@bigmailbox.net> wrote:
>>I have heard much the same from Scottish and Irish friends. So I would
>>think that it is not just NDN.
That's interesting. I've never heard it spoken of over here - but,
admittedly, I don't know many Scottish or Irish people.
Al D
Morfydd
Not uniquely.
It was common here too for a very, very long time.
AL D
wrote:
>>> A fair and valuable comment. Thank you. You may be right... but isn't
>>> the concept of "hearing ones ancestors" an N.A. concept? I think so.
>>>
>>> Al D
>>>
>>
>>Not uniquely.
>>
>> It was common here too for a very, very long time.
It may have been, for all I know. But is there any real evidence of
that, or is it just conjecture? I know people have a lot of theories
about the nature of the spiritual practices of the ancients here in
the British Isles, but as far as I can see, much of it is just just
conjecture. Take the famous stone circle at Stonehenge for example...
http://www.anima.demon.co.uk/stonehenge/history.html
....people have build all sorts of theories around Stonehenge. But at
the end of the day, what can you really construe from the fact that
the central stones of this 5,000 year-old structure line up with both
the midsummer sunrise and the midwinter moonrise? Not a great deal,
IMO - except that it suggests that the builders paid attention to the
Sun and Moon, which is not really surprising.
When it comes to figuring out what the ancients of Britain did in the
way of spiritual practices, It seems to me that all we have to go on
is a bunch of old bones, some weapons, some tools, some clay pots, a
few stone circles, a few burial mounds etc. Written records don't go
that far back. So I'm curious to know if there is anything to
substantiate any concept of how, or whether, the ancients kept up
relations with their ancestors.
Then there is another question: Why would (say) a great great
grandfather particularly care about his great-great grandchildren? If
he's hanging around, wouldn't he be most likely to work with someone
who was best furthering his cause or personal agenda in the material
plane in some way? That might well not be a blood descendent.
I've met people (Brits) in England who believe they are in
communication with American Indian spirit guides. I'm not talking
about the new age crowd; it has been going on a lot longer than that.
White Eagle is a name that comes to mind. A few folks, over the past
100 years or so, believe they have been channelled knowledge by this
White Eagle spirit guide. I wonder if that's fact or fantasy.
Al D
AL D
That may just come about one day.
>>Native ceremonies, even the most innocuous, are
>>for natives only.
Okay - I can accept that.
Some of the N.A. spiritual practices I've heard of are what I would
probably call 'ritual' rather than 'ceremony'. For example, consider a
routine of smudging things and living spaces with sage (a proceedure
gleaned from N.A. sources). Would you call that an inoccuous ceremony?
Then there are other N.A. spiritual practices that I don't think you'd
call ceremony, but which could be of benefit non-N.A. people. One that
particularly interests me is the dream quest. However, I suppose it
could be argued that the dream quest is also found in other
cultures... some N.A. writers have cited the example of Jesus' venture
into the wilderness where he had the vision of Satan. Then there was
the Buddha, who sat under a tree, resolving not to move until he found
what he was looking for.
>>Curtis took movies of native ceremonies to preserve
>>them for posterity. Except the natives danced backwards, invented
>>movements, wore inappropriate dress etc. Curtis was delighted. You
>>will find nothing in literature except the most general explanations of
>>ceremonies and beliefs. My elder has many people come to his sweats.
>>There are many books on sweats that you can buy. His sweats, like any
>>religious ceremony, follow a pattern. The pattern depends on the
>>purpose of that ceremony but with the twist that each is tailored to
>>the participants. How that sweat is performed depends upon whether
>>there are whites present or just natives. If there are only natives
>>present how traditional are they? I'm not even sure how "traditional"
>>he thinks I am but he seems to think I have promise. A people are
>>nothing but the sum of their ceremonies. The ceremonies of the north
>>american peoples have been taken by force, by corruption and lately by
>>flattery. When the ceremonies have all been taken, the people will be
>>gone.
>> If you came to north america you will be able to find and attend
>>many native ceremonies and receive native teachings. There are many who
>>make a living at it. I can only say that if it costs money it is
>>worthless. If it is painless, it is worthless. If it does not entail
>>sacrifice, it is worthless.
All of what you said above is very helpful indeed. It clarifies a lot
of things. Thank you...
Al D
Morfydd
Good luck in your searching.
"AL D" <wmth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4397fd4b...@news.individual.net...
AL D
wrote:
>>ah... you are one of those. Never mind.
I don't know what label you're sticking on me, friend.
But it doesn't matter much. I'm me; that's all.
Al D
Keely
Al,
There are several problems with books, first and foremost is most books are
written by people who are frauds, they are not Indians, and they are out to
scam people, one of the biggest frauds calls herself brooke medicine eagle,
then she is in a close tie to mary summer rain... these people make up names
that non Indians will believe and feed people full of it just to get their
money... and they are doing a good job at it! But what they teach is
false... and if someone is learning something false, then have they really
learned anything at all?
We do not have "religious leaders" as churches have, we each have to make
our own way in life, our greatest gift in our path that we walk is that of
our Elders, they do not tell us how to walk our path in life, but give us
guidance for us to decide for ourselves.
Take for example the Catholics... now I dont have anything against
Catholics, one of my best friends is one, but I explained to him I do not
grasp the concept of him going to church three days a week, to be told how
you are going to live your life, and then if he feels he has done something
wrong, or really did do something wrong, that he must "confess" his "sins"
and then the "father" forgives him and he says his hail mary's and goes on
his merry way... This friend is so Catholic, I swear he would have
withdrawls if he could not attend church at least twice a week... and worse,
is the collection of a percentage of your yearly income! Huh? What is this??
They are going to tell me how to live and then tell me I have to give them
part of my yearly income? Thats what religion is about?? No thanks, I dont
need it..
See, my relationship with my creator is a private one, between my creator
and I. I cannot tell someone else how it feels, because they have to feel it
for themselves, experiance themselves... I dont want them to experiance what
I have, but for them to experiance their own, for then it is very special
that no one else can share... like sex, no one else but you know how you
feel during sex.. you can tell others, but you cant make them experiance
what you are feeling...
Every religion thinks only their religion is the right religion, and they
try to force it off onto others... blah, blah, blah.... it might be right
for them, but it is not right for everyone...
I dont need to go to church to know I am loved, I dont need a church to
worship in, heck, I dont even need to worship, I say prayers, I am a good
person (though some would argue haha) I help others.... I know right from
wrong... Sure I have done things that I felt are wrong, and I am my own
worse jailor, we all punish ourselves and we all think back on our wrong
doings, and we all feel bad about things we have done... we punish
ourselves, I dont need a church to tell me I am "forgiven" because unless I
can forgive myself, I will never be forgiven.
It is just very hard to explain...
Must be cold in England, I know it is cold in Kansas! But when it warms up,
drive out to the country, park the car, take a long, very long walk, and
dont just look at things, breathe deep, relax, know your a part of
everything out there, and listen, dont just hear things, but listen, when
one listens, they use their heart...
AL D
>>
>>Al,
>>
>>There are several problems with books, first and foremost is most books are
>>written by people who are frauds, they are not Indians, and they are out to
>>scam people, one of the biggest frauds calls herself brooke medicine eagle,
>>then she is in a close tie to mary summer rain... these people make up names
>>that non Indians will believe and feed people full of it just to get their
>>money... and they are doing a good job at it! But what they teach is
>>false... and if someone is learning something false, then have they really
>>learned anything at all?
Good Day Keely,
I once bought a book by Mary Summer Rain, but tossed it away after
the first couple of chapters. It didn't ring true for me. But I do
that with a lot of books... so "no offense, Mary". I haven't heard of
the other one.
But do you really think *all* Indian writers are frauds? I would have
though that at least some of them must be writing as part of their
personal spiritual mission in life (as opposed to making financial
profit), no?
>>We do not have "religious leaders" as churches have, we each have to make
>>our own way in life, our greatest gift in our path that we walk is that of
>>our Elders, they do not tell us how to walk our path in life, but give us
>>guidance for us to decide for ourselves.
That's nice.
>>Take for example the Catholics... now I dont have anything against
>>Catholics, one of my best friends is one, but I explained to him I do not
>>grasp the concept of him going to church three days a week, to be told how
>>you are going to live your life, and then if he feels he has done something
>>wrong, or really did do something wrong, that he must "confess" his "sins"
>>and then the "father" forgives him and he says his hail mary's and goes on
>>his merry way... This friend is so Catholic, I swear he would have
>>withdrawls if he could not attend church at least twice a week... and worse,
>>is the collection of a percentage of your yearly income! Huh? What is this??
>>They are going to tell me how to live and then tell me I have to give them
>>part of my yearly income? Thats what religion is about?? No thanks, I dont
>>need it..
Me neither. I've got a lot of respect for Jesus' teaching, but I
rarely, if ever, go to church.
>>See, my relationship with my creator is a private one, between my creator
>>and I. I cannot tell someone else how it feels, because they have to feel it
>>for themselves, experiance themselves... I dont want them to experiance what
>>I have, but for them to experiance their own, for then it is very special
>>that no one else can share... like sex, no one else but you know how you
>>feel during sex.. you can tell others, but you cant make them experiance
>>what you are feeling...
>>
>>Every religion thinks only their religion is the right religion, and they
>>try to force it off onto others... blah, blah, blah.... it might be right
>>for them, but it is not right for everyone...
>>
>>I dont need to go to church to know I am loved, I dont need a church to
>>worship in, heck, I dont even need to worship, I say prayers, I am a good
>>person (though some would argue haha) I help others.... I know right from
>>wrong... Sure I have done things that I felt are wrong, and I am my own
>>worse jailor, we all punish ourselves and we all think back on our wrong
>>doings, and we all feel bad about things we have done... we punish
>>ourselves,
Same here for sure; I'm still suffering from awful things I did when I
was about 14 years old. Can't forget it. Probably never will be able
to completely let myself of the hook.
>>I dont need a church to tell me I am "forgiven" because unless I
>>can forgive myself, I will never be forgiven.
>>
>>It is just very hard to explain...
Not at all; I understand you perfectly.
>>Must be cold in England, I know it is cold in Kansas! But when it warms up,
>>drive out to the country, park the car, take a long, very long walk, and
>>dont just look at things, breathe deep, relax, know your a part of
>>everything out there, and listen, dont just hear things, but listen, when
>>one listens, they use their heart...
Good advice - thank you. I look upon the special places of natural
beauty in my locality as my "churches": the isolated beach with the
rocky outcrop, the wooded valley that leads down to the beach. They
are the real "churches", for me. Few people here understand when I
refer to these places as "sacred" - but to me, they are as sacred as
any place gets.
Next time I go, I will "listen with the heart"... Thanks for that!
All the best to you,
Al D
Duane
Speaking for myself all I have to do is remember their contributions to my
life and what influence they had on my likes, dislikes talents, creativity
and it is as if they are right here with me.
'Course I can also hear them telling me things that they wish I would get
through my thick skull from their own experiences too. Being a bit pig
headed my ears ring from that at times.....<g!>lol
At any rate I wish to thankyou for reminding me that in my time of need I am
never alone. (o:
I only hope you too can eventually fill that void in your heart.
Kris
------------------------------Al D said-----------------------------
AL D
>>What an empty and lonely existance this must be for you. )o:
>>
>>Speaking for myself all I have to do is remember their contributions to my
>>life and what influence they had on my likes, dislikes talents, creativity
>>and it is as if they are right here with me.
>>
>>'Course I can also hear them telling me things that they wish I would get
>>through my thick skull from their own experiences too. Being a bit pig
>>headed my ears ring from that at times.....<g!>lol
>>
>>At any rate I wish to thankyou for reminding me that in my time of need I am
>>never alone. (o:
>>
>>I only hope you too can eventually fill that void in your heart.
Thank you for that sentiment. My grandparents both died when I was
very young, and I can hardly remember them. They lived some distance
from us. There was a great-uncle who lived at our house until I was
about 7 when he passed on. He was a good man, and often chided my
father for being too harsh with me. He is not such a close blood
relative, as my grandparents but having grown up with him for a while,
I remember him better, and with love for his kindness and protection.
Maybe I can reach him. It was a long, long time ago.....
Regards,
Al
Keely
them! If there is a book out about "spirituality" you can generally bet the
book is written by a fraud. Sprituality is something that I dont think can
be written about, because it is within oneself. And all of them have profit
in mind, they have "gatherings" or sell "sweats" which is just not right...
and what they do will come back on them in bad ways... these kinds of things
are not for sale. As for their personal mission in life, that is what it is,
their own personal mission, not others, each of us must find our own way.
I know what your going through, a lot of my friends go through it too, I try
and help them with advice, but never can I tell them what to do...
My husband is white, a lot of these things he does not understand, but one
night when he was playing baseball on the company team, I was standing next
to a tree, I put my hand on the tree and felt it was in pain, almost as if
it were crying, I got my husband told him to go home and get the hack saw,
he asked why, and I told him the tree needed help.... he knew better than to
ask questions so he left and returned with the hack saw... it was dark out
so I had him put the headlights on the little tree, soon, he seen where a
branch had been partially broken, the rest swung with the breeze, he cut it
off, and then he later told me he almost heard that tree thank him... Thats
listening with your heart, because the tree did not speak, but its spirit
did... Today, that tree still stands, and has grown quite a bit. My husband
no longer plays on the company team, they stopped having teams :o(
cobra...@yahoo.com
I've started: http://spiritist7.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AL D
>>Not all writers who claim to be Indian are frauds, just the majority of
>>them! If there is a book out about "spirituality" you can generally bet the
>>book is written by a fraud. Sprituality is something that I dont think can
>>be written about, because it is within oneself. And all of them have profit
>>in mind, they have "gatherings" or sell "sweats" which is just not right...
No - I can see what you mean.
>>and what they do will come back on them in bad ways... these kinds of things
>>are not for sale. As for their personal mission in life, that is what it is,
>>their own personal mission, not others, each of us must find our own way.
>>
>>I know what your going through, a lot of my friends go through it too, I try
>>and help them with advice, but never can I tell them what to do...
>>
>>My husband is white, a lot of these things he does not understand, but one
>>night when he was playing baseball on the company team, I was standing next
>>to a tree, I put my hand on the tree and felt it was in pain, almost as if
>>it were crying, I got my husband told him to go home and get the hack saw,
>>he asked why, and I told him the tree needed help.... he knew better than to
>>ask questions so he left and returned with the hack saw... it was dark out
>>so I had him put the headlights on the little tree, soon, he seen where a
>>branch had been partially broken, the rest swung with the breeze, he cut it
>>off, and then he later told me he almost heard that tree thank him...
Nice story. Most folks over here laugh if you I them I communucate
with plants and trees, but actually people are becoming more open to
such ideas. They no longer think it's crazy...
Al D
Unknown
>But regarding a non-N.A. person who sincerely recognises the wisdom of
>certain N.A. spiritual practices and beliefs, and treats N.A.
>spiritual traditions with suitable respect: Which aspects of N.A.
>spirituality are considered 'free-for-all' and which are considered
>out-of-bounds to even the sincere non-N.A. spiritually-oriented
>persons?
The variegated American Indian spiritualities are appealing because
they are - deliberately and necessarily - mysteries to outsiders. They
have also been publicized and romanticized over the past century or
more.
Since you are evidently in the British Isles, why not look back a few
dozen generations into the mysteries woven by tribes and clans in the
silence of the pre-technological North Atlantic forest. These people
could possibly even be your very distant family. Their beliefs and
practices have been widely documented - likely discussed in newsgroups
too. You could shamelessly delve into those mysteries with which you
may have some distant cultural connection.
cobra...@yahoo.com
Aubade wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:48:21 GMT, wmth...@aol.com (AL D) wrote:
>
> >But regarding a non-N.A. person who sincerely recognises the wisdom of
> >certain N.A. spiritual practices and beliefs, and treats N.A.
> >spiritual traditions with suitable respect: Which aspects of N.A.
> >spirituality are considered 'free-for-all' and which are considered
> >out-of-bounds to even the sincere non-N.A. spiritually-oriented
> >persons?
Hey there weak juice, 'free for all' perhaps are
the one's that people derive abundant spiritual
wealth, yet most of all, why do you ask?
Oh free for all, most of all, let the coals fall.
Hey there, weak juice wants to know if you'll
share it all, or perhaps not it all, just perhaps
whatever you'll allow them to draw.
I say let weak juice pray and pray, perhaps look
deep into his own ways, let him feel like a mf duck,
and perhaps he'll just go away, or become a loyal
friend some day?
Now for my footnote: If what I just said makes you mad
then kiss my liver. Ha!
.....................................................................................
AL D
Hi There,
Thank you for your suggestion. I appreciate your input. Other people
have suggested the same thing to me. The problem is that so little is
reliably documented, regarding the religious practices of the ancients
in Europe (as far as I'm aware). One has to use just a few pieces of a
very large jigsaw puzzle, in the form of a few bones, weapons, pottery
jewellery etc. I don't think it's enough to build anything on.
Al D.
AL D
>>Hey there weak juice, 'free for all' perhaps are
>>the one's that people derive abundant spiritual
>>wealth, yet most of all, why do you ask?
I wanted to find out how much of their spiritual methods the NA
peoples are willing to share. Reason? Because I don't want to
aggravate them. Causing aggravation is not in my interest.
Anyway, the responses here have made me much better aware of how
uncomfortable NA people are to share their God-given wisdom. I don't
fully understand that. It strikes me as a shame when much of that
wisdom and the N.A. spiritual approach could help to change people:
people who are currently part of the money-crazed blind hoards who are
riding roughshod over Mother Erath's precious bio-system, and the
sacred spaces of the planet, inviting doom for us all, or our
decendents.
>>Oh free for all, most of all, let the coals fall.
>>Hey there, weak juice wants to know if you'll
>>share it all, or perhaps not it all, just perhaps
>>whatever you'll allow them to draw.
>>
>>I say let weak juice pray and pray, perhaps look
>>deep into his own ways, let him feel like a mf duck,
>>and perhaps he'll just go away, or become a loyal
>>friend some day?
I already am a loyal friend. Never have said a bad word against an NA
person. In fact have helped NA persons in the past.
>>Now for my footnote: If what I just said makes you mad
>>then kiss my liver. Ha!
Why should it make me mad? I appreciate your input - even enjoyed the
poetry!
Al D
redb...@bigmailbox.net
"Anyway, the responses here have made me much better aware of how
uncomfortable NA people are to share their God-given wisdom. I don't
fully understand that. It strikes me as a shame when much of that
wisdom and the N.A. spiritual approach could help to change people:
people who are currently part of the money-crazed blind hoards who are
riding roughshod over Mother Erath's precious bio-system, and the
sacred spaces of the planet, inviting doom for us all, or our
decendents."
Which leads me to two thoughts. The first is this: Everytime NDN people
"share", they get burned. Some flake pops up saying they "studied" with
this tribe or that tribe and starts selling ceremony. I am not saying
you would do this, but it happens way way way too much. Those money
crazed blind hoards won't stop because we share with them, they will
just figure out how to make money out of "authentic" sweat lodges ec.
The so called "New Age" is all about money and how to commodify
spirituality and get rich. They don't care who and what they stomp on,
bastardize and pervert to get money. Money is their real god/goddess.
The second thing is that you seem to have a romanticized notion of what
NDN spiritual beliefs are/were.
cobra...@yahoo.com
AL D wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2005 20:57:53 -0800, cobra...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>Hey there weak juice, 'free for all' perhaps are
> >>the one's that people derive abundant spiritual
> >>wealth, yet most of all, why do you ask?
>
> I wanted to find out how much of their spiritual methods the NA
> peoples are willing to share. Reason? Because I don't want to
> aggravate them. Causing aggravation is not in my interest.
>
> Anyway, the responses here have made me much better aware of how
> uncomfortable NA people are to share their God-given wisdom. I don't
> fully understand that. It strikes me as a shame when much of that
> wisdom and the N.A. spiritual approach could help to change people:
> people who are currently part of the money-crazed blind hoards who are
> riding roughshod over Mother Erath's precious bio-system, and the
> sacred spaces of the planet, inviting doom for us all, or our
> decendents.
For a very long time much of the doom was caused
by these money crazed blind hoards of people--only
it was doomin NA's and their children, now it is also
doomin their own children, why should NA's want to
stop that?
...............................................................................
Unknown
>Thank you for your suggestion. I appreciate your input. Other people
>have suggested the same thing to me. The problem is that so little is
>reliably documented, regarding the religious practices of the ancients
>in Europe (as far as I'm aware). One has to use just a few pieces of a
>very large jigsaw puzzle, in the form of a few bones, weapons, pottery
>jewellery etc. I don't think it's enough to build anything on.
So the process of being publicized and romanticized over the last
century provided unprecedented detailed verbal and image descriptions
- however incomplete - of American Indian indigenous spiritualities.
The media attention makes them seem close and accessible.
Your own culture provides numerous religions and spiritualities
eligible for embrace. Why would you pick those of remote distant
cultures?
Duane
where you live and were raised feel that way?
Kris
----------------------Al D said--------------------
Duane
they are? Why your ancestors who are still alive have the attitudes they
have? Like why you were raised on certain foods, and how your family
survived the worst of all tragedies. If you will remember those things
didn't just happen on this side of the content. If you will remember how
*your* ancestors survived their own trials and tribulations and honor them
for it, that is a step in the right direction.
Why are you creative? Why do you have a certain like or dislike for music?
Why are you stubborn about certain moral issues?........etc. You owe this
kind of homage to *your* ancestors first before you go looking elsewhere and
that takes a lifetime of understanding. I am an American and will always be
one but I talk about my own ancestors as if they are a part of me because no
matter what culture they are or where they came from they were born and
lived so that I could be here. It is a bit shallow to think otherwise.
Kris
-----------------------Al D said---------------------
Hi Mike,
Fair question. But what if I have more Respect for certain N.A.
teachings than I do for any other world teachings? What if I consider
'my people' to be whichever two-legged sons of the Creator happen to
have the same beliefs as me - even if their skin color is different
and they live on the other side of the planet?
AL D
Duane
long as you pay attention to those lessons you've already learned. If you
still feel a sense of spiritual emptiness you may want to ask yourself why.
Kris
---------------------
AL D
>>What if you learned more about yourself and why your own beliefs are the way
>>they are? Why your ancestors who are still alive have the attitudes they
>>have? Like why you were raised on certain foods, and how your family
>>survived the worst of all tragedies. If you will remember those things
>>didn't just happen on this side of the content. If you will remember how
>>*your* ancestors survived their own trials and tribulations and honor them
>>for it, that is a step in the right direction.
>>
>>Why are you creative? Why do you have a certain like or dislike for music?
>>Why are you stubborn about certain moral issues?........etc. You owe this
>>kind of homage to *your* ancestors first before you go looking elsewhere and
>>that takes a lifetime of understanding. I am an American and will always be
>>one but I talk about my own ancestors as if they are a part of me because no
>>matter what culture they are or where they came from they were born and
>>lived so that I could be here. It is a bit shallow to think otherwise.
>>
>>Kris
Hi Kris,
Thanks for your suggestions. This whole thing about ancestors has
never figured prominently in my spiritual life. My spiritual life is
more about my relationship with the Great Spirit and the Earth Mother.
I have a feeling that ancestral spirits don't hang around very long
over here in Europe. They seem to move on very quickly, and we let
them go. I think the situation may be different in N.America,
particularly with the indigenous peoples.... When I first came to
N.America in 1980, I immediately became conscious of spirits born on
the wind. I could almost hear their voices. It was somthing I had
never experienced in Europe.
Al D
AL D
>>How sad for you. Is that all you think there is? Do most people in that area
>>where you live and were raised feel that way?
Yes, I think so.
Al D
AL D
.....................................................................
>>For a very long time much of the doom was caused
>>by these money crazed blind hoards of people--only
>>it was doomin NA's and their children, now it is also
>>doomin their own children, why should NA's want to
>>stop that?
>>...............................................................................
In order to save themselves?
Al D
AL D
>>On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:48:21 GMT, wmth...@aol.com (AL D) wrote:
>>
>>>But regarding a non-N.A. person who sincerely recognises the wisdom of
>>>certain N.A. spiritual practices and beliefs, and treats N.A.
>>>spiritual traditions with suitable respect: Which aspects of N.A.
>>>spirituality are considered 'free-for-all' and which are considered
>>>out-of-bounds to even the sincere non-N.A. spiritually-oriented
>>>persons?
>>
>>The variegated American Indian spiritualities are appealing because
>>they are - deliberately and necessarily - mysteries to outsiders. They
>>have also been publicized and romanticized over the past century or
>>more.
>>
Thanks for the suggestions. There are many religions, worldwide that
hold some mystique due to bein mysteries to outsiders. I have studied
many of them, and also adopted some of their approaches. I would like
to also adopt some of the approaches and methods used by traditional
NA people.
>>Since you are evidently in the British Isles, why not look back a few
>>dozen generations into the mysteries woven by tribes and clans in the
>>silence of the pre-technological North Atlantic forest. These people
>>could possibly even be your very distant family. Their beliefs and
>>practices have been widely documented - likely discussed in newsgroups
>>too. You could shamelessly delve into those mysteries with which you
>>may have some distant cultural connection.
I would like to hear of a source that gives tangible evidence of their
spiritual practices. However, I don't see how anyone can deduce an
ancient people's spritual practices, based on a few clay pots, swords,
brooches and burial mounds, etc. One can put to gether all manner of
theories but tentative theories is all it can be, IMO.
Al D.
Morfydd
not speak with you because you insult them with your turncoat attitude.
You are little more than a spiritual whore who sells his soul to the loudest
bidder.
Well, newsflash, you aint all that and the spirits here are too old, too
wise and too long in the tooth to bother with such insincerity.
then again..... I am Welsh, perhaps I don't understand what it means to be
rootless, eh englishman?
"AL D" <wmth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:439acc5...@news.individual.net...
TTT
<mor...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>>you are wrong. they are here as they have always been here. perhaps they do
>>not speak with you because you insult them with your turncoat attitude.
>>
>>You are little more than a spiritual whore who sells his soul to the loudest
>>bidder.
>>Well, newsflash, you aint all that and the spirits here are too old, too
>>wise and too long in the tooth to bother with such insincerity.
>>
>>then again..... I am Welsh, perhaps I don't understand what it means to be
>>rootless, eh englishman?
What an arrogant little racist troll you are, welshman.
TT
Duane
Mop and I have had our differences, and believe me, they have been *MAJOR*.
However I've known **her** from personal experience over the internet for
much longer than you have. She is honest and sincere. She is the farthest
thing from racist troll anyone will ever know.
Btw, the fact that your friend, who calls *himself* "Englishman", and
insults those ancestors who've lived and died over there with his attitude
shows she is also dead on right!
Some people are so transparent they are opaque.
On the other hand I *do* feel sorry for your friend, Al D. That kind of
shallow existance means he is out of touch with personal relationships and
the world around him. I pray **not a "xtian" type prayer, per se,** but I
keep those people in my thoughts in hopes they will eventually find their
own path, because that is a kind of emptiness that can only lead to
distruction for him and the people around him. I am glad I myself will never
ever have to experience that, but for those who do, it can have a domino
effect on everyone and everything they come into contact with. That can only
lead to more sadness in the world. There already is waay too much of that
now.
Kris
---------------------Mop replied to TT--------------------
Duane
*learning* or at least trying to imagine what it took to make those items?
Appreciating the hand made detail in them and why they were made? Trying to
imagine what may have been going through the individuals mind while in the
process of making them. That in and of itself is to some degree spiritual.
Something is definately amiss if you can't even do that.
Kris
------------------------Al D said----------------------------
TTT
>>Guess again,
>>
>>Mop and I have had our differences, and believe me, they have been *MAJOR*.
>>However I've known **her** from personal experience over the internet for
>>much longer than you have. She is honest and sincere. She is the farthest
>>thing from racist troll anyone will ever know.
Regardless of what you may say to suck up to your welsh pal, it
doesn't take much to recognise a hateful little nationalist troll when
one shows up. As for her inference that English people are
necessarily "rootless" well that's pure bullshit. It doesn't take
many brain cells to work that out... not that it matters; the measure
of a good person is nothing to do with roots.
If I don't respond to your response, it doesn't mean you have won the
debate; it means I have better things to do with my time.
TT
Kerstin
"AL D"
"Morfydd"
wrote:
>>>> A fair and valuable comment. Thank you. You may be right... but isn't
>>>> the concept of "hearing ones ancestors" an N.A. concept? I think so.
>>>>
>>>> Al D
>>>Not uniquely.
>>> It was common here too for a very, very long time.
> It may have been, for all I know. But is there any real evidence of
> that, or is it just conjecture? I know people have a lot of theories
> about the nature of the spiritual practices of the ancients here in
> the British Isles, but as far as I can see, much of it is just just
> conjecture. Take the famous stone circle at Stonehenge for example...
>
> http://www.anima.demon.co.uk/stonehenge/history.html
>
> ....people have build all sorts of theories around Stonehenge. But at
> the end of the day, what can you really construe from the fact that
> the central stones of this 5,000 year-old structure line up with both
> the midsummer sunrise and the midwinter moonrise? Not a great deal,
> IMO - except that it suggests that the builders paid attention to the
> Sun and Moon, which is not really surprising.
>
> When it comes to figuring out what the ancients of Britain did in the
> way of spiritual practices, It seems to me that all we have to go on
> is a bunch of old bones, some weapons, some tools, some clay pots, a
> few stone circles, a few burial mounds etc. Written records don't go
> that far back. So I'm curious to know if there is anything to
> substantiate any concept of how, or whether, the ancients kept up
> relations with their ancestors.
clergyman: Forsachistu diabolae?
Saxon: Ec forsacho diabolae.
clergyman: End allum diobolgelde?
Saxon: End ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae.
clergyman: End allum dioboles uuercum?
Saxon: End ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum,
Thunaer ende Uoden ende Saxnote ende allum them unholdum,
the hira genotas sint.
That were the words which a Saxon must spoke when he convert
into Christianity. The beginning of the end of their culture. :)
>[...] It seems to me that all we have to go on
> is a bunch of old bones, some weapons, some tools, some clay pots, a
> few stone circles, a few burial mounds etc. Written records don't go
> that far back.[...]
Many things you can find in museums or historybooks. Sometimes
you can find some things in old stoory books. There you can read how
people lived their daily life. Or some things are direct under our noses
and we don't realise them. It's like a puzzle. Here and there you find
sometimes some pieces. Not all things were good in the past.
My people did know the vendetta. It isn't a long time ago such
things did exist.
Montag, Monday => Mond, moon
Dienstag, Tuesday => Zio/Thingsus/Tyr
Mittwoch, Wednesday => Wuotan/Wodan/Odin
Donnerstag, Thursday => Donar/Porr
Freitag, Friday => Fria/Freyja
and so on.
Nebelmond, fog-moon (Don't know the english word) =>November
Erntemond, harvest-moon=> August
and so on.
I guess the N. A. called a month, a moon, too.
They build often their churches on ground, which
was secret for the Germans. They adopt their festivals
and changed them. Christmas, Easter, harvest festival for example.
In some areas the farmers left a last sheaf as a sacrifice.
It was holly. They formed it to a doll. (corn-mother)
In other areas they made/make harvest-crowns.
Has all to do with the old ways...
Some people made contracts on the cemetery.
(Who dares to lie in the present of the ancestors?)
I read about a tradition that a bride got lead to a
cemetery. She got introduce to the ancestors.
I asked my father, but he hasn't heard of it.
Many different people, many traditions.
> Then there is another question: Why would (say) a great great
> grandfather particularly care about his great-great grandchildren? If
> he's hanging around, wouldn't he be most likely to work with someone
> who was best furthering his cause or personal agenda in the material
> plane in some way? That might well not be a blood descendent.
>
> I've met people (Brits) in England who believe they are in
> communication with American Indian spirit guides. I'm not talking
> about the new age crowd; it has been going on a lot longer than that.
> White Eagle is a name that comes to mind. A few folks, over the past
> 100 years or so, believe they have been channelled knowledge by this
> White Eagle spirit guide. I wonder if that's fact or fantasy.
> Al D
Kerstin
"Duane" <
> What if you learned more about yourself and why your own beliefs are the
> way
> they are? Why your ancestors who are still alive have the attitudes they
> have? Like why you were raised on certain foods, and how your family
> survived the worst of all tragedies. If you will remember those things
> didn't just happen on this side of the content. If you will remember how
> *your* ancestors survived their own trials and tribulations and honor them
> for it, that is a step in the right direction.
>
> Why are you creative? Why do you have a certain like or dislike for music?
> Why are you stubborn about certain moral issues?........etc.
He, he...my people didn't like these rich aristocrats and kings and so.
There was once a farmers daughter. This daughter married a rich son
of an aristocrat. On the wedding celebration the farmer lost his composure.
He saw all these aristocrats and said: "I thought we had kill all of your
kind in the last battle"? What then happened...nobody knows. :)
My grandpa got in WWI in captivity for four years in France.
He must work there as farm hand. He got the order to weed
out a cucumber field. Instead of that he chop the cucumber
dead. Hmm..he got some weeks arrest for that. I wish I could
have seen how he had chop the cucumber. lol
Al D
>>O Fer cryin out loud! Is that all you think there is to it? What about
>>*learning* or at least trying to imagine what it took to make those items?
>>Appreciating the hand made detail in them and why they were made? Trying to
>>imagine what may have been going through the individuals mind while in the
>>process of making them. That in and of itself is to some degree spiritual.
>>Something is definately amiss if you can't even do that.
Actually, Kris, I can do that better than most people, being an
imaginitive right-brained artist and all. But, you know, the clay pots
and the jewellery dug up from Celtic and Aincient Briton archaelogical
sites are pretty simplistic. A clay pot or a bronze brooch might have
a few decorative squiggles, if you're very, very lucky. But what's
that going to tell you?
Anyway, more to the point, what is the big deal with ancestors? I've
lived all my life without them being part of my awareness, and I don't
miss them. I'm more into nature and land spirits. Spirits of the
elements and such. Animal spirits too. But most of all, living human
beings and animals are what make life a happy experience for me.
Al D
Unknown
>I would like to hear of a source that gives tangible evidence of their
>spiritual practices. However, I don't see how anyone can deduce an
>ancient people's spritual practices, based on a few clay pots, swords,
>brooches and burial mounds, etc. One can put to gether all manner of
>theories but tentative theories is all it can be, IMO.
At least you'd have the advantage of propinquity, which you don't have
by studying spiritual practices on another continent. There are 500
American Indian nations - how to pick which one's spirtual practices
to adopt? Worse yet, your connection would only be impressions through
books, TV, and the Internet.
Duane
LOL! I hafta laugh about that as she and I had one major fight a while back
but no she ain't no troll. If it appeases you to think that way well you are
going to think what you will anyway no matter what anyone says.
>>it doesn't take much to recognise a hateful little nationalist troll when
>>one shows up.
Since when is pride in one's own country and culture a unique thing?
>>As for her inference that English people are
>>necessarily "rootless" well that's pure bullshit.
She wasn't talking about all English people, sir! Just those who steal.
>>It doesn't take many brain cells to work that out... not that it matters;
the measure
>>of a good person is nothing to do with roots.
No but remembering **your own** ancestors by learning positive things from
them and learning from their mistakes does! And that will never ever change!
>>If I don't respond to your response, it doesn't mean you have won the
>>debate; it means I have better things to do with my time.
Good. I'm glad we're done here!
Kris
Morfydd
"TTT" <T...@DttDttD.org> wrote in message
news:439adf3e...@news.individual.net...
ah - so being called by his nationality is an insult?
Could call me welshman as much as you like and not once would it bother
me. wonder why that is, eh?
Or do you mean the rootless? He has said as much himself.
Perhaps you should read back on what your friend has written before jumping
into the fray...
Al D
>>O Fer cryin out loud! Is that all you think there is to it? What about
>>*learning* or at least trying to imagine what it took to make those items?
>>Appreciating the hand made detail in them and why they were made? Trying to
>>imagine what may have been going through the individuals mind while in the
>>process of making them. That in and of itself is to some degree spiritual.
>>Something is definately amiss if you can't even do that.
PS... Supposing I was wondering through a museum, gawking at the
5000-year old pots, and I suddenly got mesmerised by one of them and
had a vision of what the potter was thinking as he painstakingly
inscribed the pot with that curious set of squiggles...
What would that have to do with ancestors? I might (arguably) 'tuned
in' to the though-process of an anciend dude from the neolithc period
or whatever, but that doen't mean he was my ancestor.
Over here, if you live in England or Wales, there's just no telling
where your family tree originates. You can trace it back as far as
written records go (the 11th century), but before that, it is pure
guesswork: you could be descnted from a Saxon, a Viking, a Norman, A
Celt, an Ancient Briton, a Phoenecian trader or an ancient Sumerian,
or a visiting space alien!
Heck, if you go back far enough, it ispossible that you and I have
the same
great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great
grandfather! One of his sons might have joined the peoples who
migrated from the far east to Siberia and thence into N.America to
become the indigenous peoples of America, and the other son might have
joined the Aryan throng who migrated from the far east accross Europe
into the British Isles. Who knows? And does it really matter?
AL D
Morfydd
but I am happy to admit I AM a nationalist and I will NEVER apologise for
that.
Amazing how this person comes from nowhere to call me a troll...lol!
Sooooooo I hear you're sucking up to me now, eh?
LMAO! That TTT is obviously not well acquainted with google. :-)
"Duane" <dho...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Y7Fmf.7301$Dk....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Morfydd
Englishman = 1
English = shitloads
are they rootless? ^shrug^ don't know - don't care.
Sociological studies tend to say that the Welsh are still
more community based than English but can't say that I have been to England
enough to bear that out for myself.
Used to go when I was young but then would just get the piss taken out of me
for my welsh accent and I absolutely despised my cousins - so it was
torturous without the english being even an equation.
My daughter has many friends that are English and they are lovely
kids....homeschooled, well brought up...but then they see as a different
country. They are respectful and interested in the differences between our
cultures and in our language and it is always a pleasure to have them come
to stay.
"TTT" <T...@DttDttD.org> wrote in message
news:439b21f8...@news.individual.net...
Al D
>>>>Regardless of what you may say to suck up to your welsh pal,
>>
>>LOL! I hafta laugh about that as she and I had one major fight a while back
>>but no she ain't no troll. If it appeases you to think that way well you are
>>going to think what you will anyway no matter what anyone says.
>>
>>>>it doesn't take much to recognise a hateful little nationalist troll when
>>>>one shows up.
>>
>>Since when is pride in one's own country and culture a unique thing?
>>
>>>>As for her inference that English people are
>>>>necessarily "rootless" well that's pure bullshit.
>>
>>She wasn't talking about all English people, sir! Just those who steal.
So what have I stolen, in your opinion? Tell me that. I hope you have
enough substance to state your case. And I'll remind you that the
porpose of my original post was to ask, respectfully, of the N.A.
people, how much of NA spiritual practices a non-N.A. can adopt
without causing offense.
Also tell me: why do you call yourself "Duane" in your header yet
sign your posts as "Kris"? Who are you, "Duane" or "Kris" or what?
Your answers to the above will determine whether or not I permanently
killfile you.
Al D
Duane
Sure thing. You are welcome. (o:
>>but I am happy to admit I AM a nationalist and I will NEVER apologise for
>>that.
>>Amazing how this person comes from nowhere to call me a troll...lol!
You may be a nationalist but you are hardlly a troll! Besides I read an
article a while back about the hard lined Nationalists, Granted it was only
one, but you don't strike me as an individual who would go to that much of
an extreme. You are just proud and there isn't a damn thing wrong with that!
>>Sooooooo I hear you're sucking up to me now, eh?
>>LMAO! That TTT is obviously not well acquainted with google. :-)
Yep! I don't know how either of us has any hair left!..<g!>lol
We may go at it again, too....but oh well, that's all part of life.
Kris
Duane
imaginitive right-brained artist and all. But, you know, the clay pots
and the jewellery dug up from Celtic and Aincient Briton archaelogical
sites are pretty simplistic. A clay pot or a bronze brooch might have
a few decorative squiggles, if you're very, very lucky. But what's
>>that going to tell you?
I used the wrong word. Instead of imagination I mean't to say appreaciation,
which it appears you may be lacking in.
>>Anyway, more to the point, what is the big deal with ancestors? I've
>>lived all my life without them being part of my awareness,
Again, why do you have that attitude???? You are here because of them!
>>and I don't miss them.
How sad for you. Don't expect to be greeted with open arms in the after life
by them, then. Btw, *to my knowledge* that is not just a Native American
belief.
>>I'm more into nature and land spirits. Spirits of the
elements and such. Animal spirits too. But most of all, living human
>>beings and animals are what make life a happy experience for me.
Good. Then why do you want to use NA spiritual practices if you are, as you
say in your own words, happy.
Really. I'm white and American. I have an interest in other cultures but
beyond that, I've never understood the need to delve into any *religious
practices* from anything other than what I was already born into right where
I was raised and grew up. Those I see doing it are always searching
endlessly instead of appreciating what they already have and putting it to
the best possible use. In short, even though I will always be curious about
the Welsh and Swedish in my family background, I've always believed there
must have been a purpose for my being born and raised where I was. There is
a grand scheme somewhere that is not for any of us to question.
Just my thoughts................
Kris
Kerstin
"Al D"
"Duane" wrote:
*lol*
Al D you go into my killfile.
PS: your dark clouds around your head won't disappear
by jumping from one religion to the next one.
Al D
>>>>Actually, Kris, I can do that better than most people, being an
>>imaginitive right-brained artist and all. But, you know, the clay pots
>>and the jewellery dug up from Celtic and Aincient Briton archaelogical
>>sites are pretty simplistic. A clay pot or a bronze brooch might have
>>a few decorative squiggles, if you're very, very lucky. But what's
>>>>that going to tell you?
>>
>>I used the wrong word. Instead of imagination I mean't to say appreaciation,
>>which it appears you may be lacking in.
I admit you may have a point. I have changed my thinking as a result
of your comments. So I thank you for that. From now on, I will send
good thoughts to my ancestors.
>>>>Anyway, more to the point, what is the big deal with ancestors? I've
>>>>lived all my life without them being part of my awareness,
>>
>>Again, why do you have that attitude???? You are here because of them!
That is true. I just had never thought about it before. (Believe it or
not.)
>>
>>>>and I don't miss them.
>>
>>How sad for you. Don't expect to be greeted with open arms in the after life
>>by them, then. Btw, *to my knowledge* that is not just a Native American
>>belief.
>>
>>>>I'm more into nature and land spirits. Spirits of the
>>elements and such. Animal spirits too. But most of all, living human
>>>>beings and animals are what make life a happy experience for me.
>>
>>Good. Then why do you want to use NA spiritual practices if you are, as you
>>say in your own words, happy.
I am happy, partly thanks to N.A. approaches to life which have
changed me for the better.
>>Really. I'm white and American. I have an interest in other cultures but
>>beyond that, I've never understood the need to delve into any *religious
>>practices* from anything other than what I was already born into right where
>>I was raised and grew up.
Well, I am happy for you in that respect. I was raised by atheist
parents so I had to find my own way. In the process have embraced
teachings from most major religions, but, at the end of the day, there
is only one religion as far as I am concernd, and virtually all of the
world religions are but different paths to the same end.
>>Those I see doing it are always searching
>>endlessly instead of appreciating what they already have and putting it to
>>the best possible use. In short, even though I will always be curious about
>>the Welsh and Swedish in my family background, I've always believed there
>>must have been a purpose for my being born and raised where I was. There is
>>a grand scheme somewhere that is not for any of us to question.
>>
>>Just my thoughts................
No problem. We are all entitled to them At least you're not accusing
me of being a "spiritual whore" and a "thief" an more. :-]
Al D
King Amdo
Duane
parents so I had to find my own way. In the process have embraced
teachings from most major religions, but, at the end of the day, there
is only one religion as far as I am concernd, and virtually all of the
>>world religions are but different paths to the same end.
I wouldn't say that is a good thing but there was a reason you were raised
in that environment. Listen to the wisdoms from the different religions that
they are willing to pass on and leave the spiritual customs and practices to
those who've spent a lifetime living and dieing for them.
There is something very insincere about people who go from one religion to
the next like they were a bee sampling one flower after the other as if they
should have some kind of entitlement to do that. The missionary religions
allow and encourage it. But when you are talking about culturally religious
traditions and customs to which others have lived fought and died for to
keep that is a whole different ball park. No one on the outside has any
"entitlements" Not you nor I nor anyone who was not born into it
unless by personal invitation. Even then I would hesitate because a person
has to live among a people or culture to fully understand the meaning of
those religious practices.
Well I've said enough here. I've got work to do and have been putting it
off..............
Kris
fromtheocea...@gmail.com
Hello Al.
My husband is British. You are wrong about what most Britons believe.
You are also wrong about there being no scholarship devoted to
repiecing older beliefs.
Read Michael Dames, The Silbury Treasure, and, The Avebury Henge.
You have been talking to the wrong people.
Ancestor worship is endemic worldwide. You can call it honoring
ancestors, if you wish. But its ancestor worship. Even fairy lore is
a form of highly degraded ancestor worship. Don't take my word for it,
read the scholarship.
As for your ancestors.....you already know who they are. You don't
have to go back very far. If you "honor" your ancestors, the place to
start is with the ones you know. Living ones to begin with. Ask them
about the ones that they knew. Then talk to them, the living and the
dead. Go to the places where they are buried. Their burial in the
land makes the land sacred and vice versa. Think about this. I think
that you will find some of the answers that you seek.
Be Well
enimani
King Amdo
AL D wrote:
> Firstly, may I mention that I'm British, so forgive me if my questions
> are somewhat naive.
>
> In recent years, I have become aware that the spiritual beliefs and
> philosophical traditions of many of the N.A. peoples hold much that
> could be af great value to non-N.A. world - especially in the interest
> of restoring a more respectful relationship with Mother Earth, and
> saving the human race from a materialism-led shortcut to catastrophe.
>
> There are, I have noted, some unique aspects to N.A. spiritual beliefs
> that are not found in other world religions.
>
> My question to you is: How much of N.A. spiritual practices can a
> non-N.A. adopt without causing offense to the N.A. peoples? I can
> understand the offense that could be caused by white people using
> sacred N.A. traditions for financial gain. I can understand the
> offense that could be cause by acting out N.A. spiritual ceremonies
> without understanding them properly.
>
> But regarding a non-N.A. person who sincerely recognises the wisdom of
> certain N.A. spiritual practices and beliefs, and treats N.A.
> spiritual traditions with suitable respect: Which aspects of N.A.
> spirituality are considered 'free-for-all' and which are considered
> out-of-bounds to even the sincere non-N.A. spiritually-oriented
> persons?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Al D
Forget the native americans, and discover your own non christian
goddess respecting traditions...that is what real native american
techers are saying rather than copy them, copy me, start doing the
rituals that I suggest, don't worry, you're with 'us'/me ...and then
comes the total fuck off that puts you in pyscriatric hopsital...no
forget this approach, and go and discover the pagan sacred sites in the
UK, and make offerings of whatever to your ancestors and they , the
goddess will show you things/.awareness (possibly). (I used to innvoke
tribal soverignty for a start)
Blessed be.
Jim
<fromtheocea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>Since you are evidently in the British Isles, why not look back a few
>>> >>dozen generations into the mysteries woven by tribes and clans in the
>>> >>silence of the pre-technological North Atlantic forest. These people
>>> >>could possibly even be your very distant family. Their beliefs and
>>> >>practices have been widely documented - likely discussed in newsgroups
>>> >>too. You could shamelessly delve into those mysteries with which you
>>> >>may have some distant cultural connection.
>>>
>>> I would like to hear of a source that gives tangible evidence of their
>>> spiritual practices. However, I don't see how anyone can deduce an
>>> ancient people's spritual practices, based on a few clay pots, swords,
>>> brooches and burial mounds, etc. One can put to gether all manner of
>>> theories but tentative theories is all it can be, IMO.
>>>
>>> Al D.
>>
>>Hello Al.
>>
>>My husband is British. You are wrong about what most Britons believe.
Can you point to any evidence to back that up?
>>You are also wrong about there being no scholarship devoted to
>>repiecing older beliefs.
>>Read Michael Dames, The Silbury Treasure, and, The Avebury Henge.
>>You have been talking to the wrong people.
No; he has been talking to the *right* people. I have read The Silbury
Treasure, and class that book (written in 1967 at the start of the New
Age movement) as typical fanciful New Age rubbish. I mean, come on,
the book tries to prove that the ancients of Britain worshipped a
pregnant goddess, on the grounds that he thought Silbury Hill appears,
in plan view, to be similar in shape (by a hell of a stretch of the
imagination, I have to say) to a statuette of a reclining woman found
in Malta!! (Yes, Malta!) He also thinks (by and even further stretch
of his amazing imagination, that the plan of the hill looks like a
pregnant woman, and that, he concludes, is evidence that the people
who built the hill worshiped a pregnant-woman goddess! Oh, please,
give me a break! The plan of the hill looks no more depicts a pregnant
woman than does a fried egg sandwich!
Yes, it is possible that the people of those days worshipped a goddess
- even, conceivably, a pregnant one, but please don't try to tell me
that the shape of Silbury Hill is in any way, shape of form, evidence
of this.
Jim
nrunni...@gmail.com
What an arrogant little racist troll you are, welshman.
TT
"
do you not realize how racist you sound to some of us?
turn to your own belief systems...
if you are so closed to the richness of your own people, and their
prextian beingness, how could you ever open yourself to foriegn?
when mop speaks truth to you, you call her a racist troll...
how, then, could you ever listen to our truths, for we, too, would say
the same to you...
unless of course, you hooked up with the too many fakes that would
gladly empty not only your wallet, but your soul...
if you are here seeking what none of us can give, if you no longer have
that connection to your own, you are indeed rootless, and will not find
such in other's roots...
and as too usual, you call names, and attempt to insult those who have
told you the truth...
mop is far from "racist", however, she does speak the truth in
unvarnished terms...
if you are unable to accept that, the insult is upon you, not her...
King Amdo
Jim wrote:
..so speaks a babylon skitz.
Jim
wrote:
>>..so speaks a babylon skitz.
...so speaks AN's sub-human moron.
Morfydd
not apologising, mind you...
but I know I would have gotten a clipped ear for that outburst if some of
those Nannas I was talking about had been here to do it....Always told me to
watch my tongue, lest I cut myself with it's sharpness.... :-)
but yea gods, this subject annoys me.
Why, why, why are these people in such a rush to dismiss their own? If they
stopped still for a second and embraced the history, feel and sense of this
place they would know, beyond all doubt, that what you have, so do we.
No, there are no books to guide you - but there never was... those that did
ceremonies learnt by ear and heart what to do and say - that hasn't
changed. The spirits that teach us - they haven't changed either...but I bet
they are none too pleased at the way people turn from them to try out new
and foreign ways...and I can tell you from experience that it really is
stupid to invite folks who don't belong... it confuses them and you.
<nrunni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134833864.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
fromtheocea...@gmail.com
Most of what Dames wrote is extrapolated from the worship of stones,
stone circles, and tombs comes from analogus structures and worship
practises still current in India. He never makes that connection in
his books, but when you read up on the practises in India, it is
virtually identical to what he has proposed for Neolithic Europe. He
also makes the assumption that various sacred springs, wells, and
stones that are now dedicated to a fake saint, were once sacred to a
local goddess. St Brigid being one example. There is in fact, no
dispute that this was the case, concerning springs and other worship
sites and their fake saints.
Jim wrote:
to a statuette of a reclining woman found
in Malta!! (Yes, Malta!)
He would have chosen Malta for a very good reason. It has the oldest
megalithic temple structures in Europe. Britain has a few massive
stone circles. Malta has entire temple complexes built in the
Neolithic. The construction of the Tilithons of Stonehenge are
identical to the Malta structures. You really should read up on the
Malta temple complexes. Archaeologists have been working for years to
decipher the ritual and religious meanings of the complexes, especially
the underground temples.
When I said he had been talking to the wrong people, it was in
reference to his statement that Britons had no ideas about the remote
past and how it would intersect with present, non christian, religious
beliefs.
Dames includes a lot of material from the neolithic in Europe and
Eurasia. He implies many things. When he compares art forms from
Europe, he makes the contention that Silbury is in the form of a
pregnant harvest goddess. I don't see any reason to dispute this. I
also see no reason to credit it without reservation. It is his theory.
He does back up his theory with facts, facts in the form of art
history and digs. Can he prove anything? Of course not. The fact
remains that no one knows for a fact, what truely ancient structures
mean in a pre literate world.
The Avebury Henge is a better book. Of course he has his theory about
the Avebury, West Kennet Long Barrow complex, and you might not like
his theory on that one either.
It might interest you to know, that his books are written for a non
professional audience, but in fact, are well received in professional
circles. His theories are no more outlandish than those of current
archaeologists working in the field, and give some kind of a framewrok
against which to test further theory and field work.
At no time does he propose ley lines, unseen earth forces, or any other
new age stuff....which in fact aren't that new, as ideas working on the
public mind. Ley lines are new age stuff. So when we talk about "new
age stuff", lets keep the hogs in the pen.
enemani
King Amdo
Jim wrote:
Ha ha, you would say that masonic skitz.
King Amdo
fromtheocea...@gmail.com wrote:
Well yes of course you, the masonic dodge christian type blag anti
goddess program is going to dismiss goddess magic as insanity.
This is why you are total scum....and anyway, you're
finnished!....(either way!)
http://browse.guardian.co.uk/search?search=gloabal+warming
EXODUS
Blessed be
Jim
<fromtheocea...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Enemani,
Much appreciated. Some of the things you mentioned certainly sound
interesting. For a start, the matter of the similarity between
Stonehenge's construction and the Maltese structures. I will certainly
look into this, becuase it had occurred to me that the Stonehenge had
similarities to certain ancient structures from the Meditteranean
region.
I will also obtain "The Avebury Henge", since you say it is a better
book than the Silbury Treasure, which didn't convince me of anything
much. I am particularly interested in Avebury, as it happens.
I think the Indian connection is worth investigating too. Isn't there
a belief that a race of people migrated into Europw from the Area now
called India? There is also some recognition of the similarity between
some Vedic words and words of European languages.
Some worthwhile evenues of research there... Thanks again.
Jim
Jim
wrote:
>>Blessed be
That's one thing you certainly aren't, pea-brain!
Kerstin
<fromtheocea...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1135299086.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.himmelsscheibe-von-nebra.com/index.php?site=1
That is interesting too. They did reconstruct the wood-walls.
If I have time then will I visit this place.
Must be interesting.
King Amdo
Jim wrote:
Take care.
blessed be.
King Amdo
this subject and you will learn nothing whatsoever because these
structures were and are about religion, about goddess magic, something
that you must experience and not read about...something that you 'Jim'
will never ever experience, trust me on this one. Disrespectful ****.
Blessed be.
Jim
wrote:
>> trust me on this one.
I'll trust you as far as I can chuck a ton bull by the tail.
Jim
King Amdo
Jim wrote:
Whatever, you've pissed,me off, and you're banned asshole.
Blessed be.
King Amdo
Jim wrote:
..in fact stay away from our sacred sites creep.
fromtheocea...@gmail.com
The similarity of megalithic structures between the Med. and
Stonehenge, used to have scholars convinced that cultural diffusion was
the explaination for Stonehenge....until radiocarbon dating in the late
'60's. The very early date of the henge made for some rethinking on
the subject of diffusion. Of course the possibility of there having
been a baseline culture from the Neolithic that was spread over a great
distance, and formed the ideas in building and other cultural issues,
is a very great possiblility. Its beyond proof, of course. Though
there are tantilizing facts ...like the Megalithic yard. Thompson
found in the mid 20th century that henges, stone avenues, stone
circles, were all built on the same unit of measurement, which is
slightly smaller than a modern yard. What does this show? That they
had a common unit of measurement. What does that mean? One thing it
has to mean is that they had some common ideas about how to build and
measure. Does this mean that they must have had a common purpose in
their structures? Probably. But what that purpose was, we just don't
know.
The idea that there was a common, baseline worship of a cosmic Mother,
is not a new age idea. It has been appropriated by new agers. Its
actually a pretty old idea in European archaeology, Egyptian arch. and
Indian ( Indian subcontinet) arch. The preponderance of evidence for
this is pretty overwhelming. The idea was not considered
contraversial, or even greatly significant, until the modern rise of
goddess oriented religon....which in my opinion is not any crazier than
other forms of religion....but I will say, is badly researched for the
most part, and many adherents make wild claims that are stripped of
context of provenence or other facts. So when Dames proposes a worship
of a great mother, he is pretty much falling in line with research from
prehistoric Greece, and other places in Europe and the Med. with long
histories of artifacts. Pre literate artifacts.
If this subject interests you, prehistoric and pre literate Europe,
don't let the claims of new religions disuade you from reading further
on the subject. Also bear in mind that religon in the UK has gone thru
a lot of changes....even in the 14th century, Paracelsus said that most
Europeans were worshiping "entities"....not a great mother, the devil,
the lord of animals, or any other such stuff. Most claims that great
mother figures, like Brigid, that became a faux saint...were actually
local goddess figures of springs that became a "pan" goddess due to
Roman influence and their way of absorbing foreign dieties and writing
about foreign ideas in ways that their citizens could understand.
Diffusion is getting a second wind though, with the mtDNA studies and
the attention to building a global map of haplogroups. In looking at
these haplogroup maps....and the Y chomosome maps, the amazing
distribution of genetic material that is is spread across continents is
adding reams of material, reams of facts, that have not yet been
analysed enough to be of much use in any kind of a firm statement about
early people. Tantalizing as these facts are. Previous to these tools
of discovery, language groups were used to "try" to track migration,
diffusion and melding. When you mention India, all current languages
alive today in Europe, with the exception of Basque, are Indo-European
languages. Etruscian was not an Indo-European language, but it became
extinct during the Roman period.
A lot of archaeology in Europe deals with art history...or artifact
history as it goes. Techniques of construction and cultural types are
analysed, and comparions are made, and then connections are made
between types. Before the biological material became available,
usually it was assumed that displacement of peoples were in operation.
Now, in large parts of Europe, it is thought that displacement did not
take place on a human level, but only on a cultural one. The genetic
studies show that interbreeding took place rather than wholesale
slaughter.
As for migration from India to Europe, I think that you are refering to
the people who, in refference to India, are called the Aryans. They
were a pre- Vedic people who invaded India, and also went westward from
the steppes of Asia into Europe at a very early period. They are
thought to have come into Europe in 3 waves. When reffering to Euope,
it is not exact to refer to them as Aryans...since the Aryans are
specifically the people who invaded India. (Hitler was a piss poor
historian). At any rate, they were western asiatics. All Indo
Europeans could not be the megalithic builders, since these monuments
predate these invasions by a long period. It is not possible to
discover who these builders were by linguistic studies alone. At any
rate, ALL people are so mixed, and always HAVE BEEN so mixed, that
genetic studies ( which are in their infancy) are not going to be able
to show very much about who, what, where, or when. Recently, using
these genetic studies, the remains of Chedder Man, a neolithic skeleton
found in the UK, was found to have a direct living descendent only 50
miles away from where the remains were unearthed. This woman, a
Briton, an Indo European speaker , and most likely also having genetic
material contributed from continental Europe, Scandinavia, and other
places of repeated invasions of the UK......also happens to be a
relative of a non Indo European speaker who was alive when the henges
and long barrows were built. What does it mean? Not much. Its just
kinda cool.
Enjoy your research.
enemani
fromtheocea...@gmail.com
The page doesn't translate very well, but I will see what else is
available on this subject. I remember reading about it in Science News
a couple of years ago. Say, do you know anything about the wooden
henge found in Germany that dates to 7,000 BC? Interesting.
enemani
Kerstin
<fromtheocea...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.mdr.de/kultur/1982830.html
http://www.sonnenobservatorium-goseck.de/fotos_2005.htm
http://www.sonnenobservatorium-goseck.de/>
There are some pictures, but it is written in German.
Maybe you must search for the word "Goseck".
I read yesterday that they found there human bones.
in the circle. They say they sacrifice humans.
It wasn't just a sun-observatory.
I don't know what these circles mean. Years ago I found a little circle
in a wood. (bulwark made out of soil)
A long time after that, any people build in the near something I don't know.
They collected branches and build a circle with it (a litte bulwark).
This circle had a break. This break was a semicircular cabin.
(Network out of branches).
I avoid this place since some years.
I guess it was September/November as we made some walks in the evening
through
the wood. There was always a truck which stand at the way which lead to
this place. One evening I could see a person sitting in this truck. A man
with long black hairs. On our walk as we came in the near of this
place, we heard a bird lout shouting. (I never heard such a bird with such
a loud voice) I had the feeling that I'm in the wrong movie.
You know, that sounds all crazy. And I guess the whole thing becomes
to me tooooooooo stupid. Maybe I should go to this place and look
what they are doing there. Maybe I should ask them. Perhaps I'm a
head shorter after that. Or I end in the soup pot? Or I will get a bloody
nose! Shit happens.Whom cares? Maybe that's just New Agers.
I I I I iiiiiiiiiiiii ii ii don't know.
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