Zeus-Dionysus
Mark Gerard Miller
(oxymoron) of Zeus and Dionysus as one and the same god? I have some
information on from a fascinating book titled "Cretan and Pre-Hellenic
Myths & Legends" by Donald A. Mackenzie, published 1917, but would like
to know if other scholars have identified the two gods as one and the
same. From Mackenzie, the chapter titled "Races and Myths of Neolithic
Crete":
"The worship of Zeus, the father-god, had a political significance. He
was imposed as the chief deity on various Pantheons by the Hellenic
conquerors of prehistoric Greece, but local deities suffered little or
no change except in name. Dionysus might be called Zeus, but he still
continued to be Dionysus, the son of the Great Mother, and did not
become Zeus the self-created father-god. ...
"The Cretan Zeus was a deity who each year died a violent death and
came to life again. He thus resembled closely the Egyptian Osiris, the
culture king, who introduced agriculture, was slain by Set (one of
whose forms was the black pig), and afterwards became Judge of the
Dead. We do not know what name was borne by this Cretan deity. It may
have been 'Velchanos,' the youthful warrior of Cretan tradition. A
Knossian cult may have called him Minos. As we have seen, this culture
king, who during life was a famed law-giver, became one of the judges
of the dead in Homeric Hades. Apparently he was deified and regarded as
a form of the Cretan Dionysus, who differed somewhat from the Thracian
Dionysus.
"At what period Zeus-Dionysus was introduced into Crete it is
impossible to say with certainty. His close association with
agriculture and the underworld suggests that he was known at an early
period, but, as will be shown in the next chapter, not necessarily the
earliest. ...
"The Cretan Zeus-Dionysus links not only with Osiris, but also with
Tammus of Babylon, ashur of Assyria, Attis of Phrygia, Adonis of
Greece, Agni of India and his twin-brother Indra, the Germanic Scef and
Frey and Heimdal, ahd the Scoto-Irish Diarmid. Each of these deities
was apparently a developed form of a primitive culture god, who was a
deity of love, fertility, and vegetation; he symbolized the grass
required by pastoralists, the fuit of wild and cultivated trees, the
spring flowers, and the corn; in short, he was the provider of the food-
supply, and he was the life-principle in the food."
Interesting to note that Mackenzie's book claims the Great Mother
Goddess had ascendance throughout much of the ancient world before god-
worship replaced it. Mackenzie has a chapter called "Ancient Peoples of
the Goddess Cult," which, if the information in it is true, could give
much support to the gyno-chauvinism of latter-day feminist mythologists
and anthropologists. In his book, Mackenzie cites the ancients and
(relatively) modern scholars of anthropology, mythology and
archaeology. Anyone know how much credence Mackenzie has as a scholar
of myth?
Mark
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Before you buy.
Odysseus
Mark Gerard Miller <mg...@msn.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know of any identification by the mythological authorities
> (oxymoron) of Zeus and Dionysus as one and the same god? I have some
> information on from a fascinating book titled "Cretan and Pre-Hellenic
> Myths & Legends" by Donald A. Mackenzie, published 1917, but would like
> to know if other scholars have identified the two gods as one and the
> same. From Mackenzie, the chapter titled "Races and Myths of Neolithic
> Crete":
>
> "The worship of Zeus, the father-god, had a political significance. He
> was imposed as the chief deity on various Pantheons by the Hellenic
> conquerors of prehistoric Greece, but local deities suffered little or
> no change except in name. Dionysus might be called Zeus, but he still
> continued to be Dionysus, the son of the Great Mother, and did not
> become Zeus the self-created father-god. ...
>
I believe the self-fathering Zeus/Dionysus/Iacchus was central to the Orphic
mysteries; while it may have originated as a result of 'political syncretism'
such as the fusion of Amen and Ra in Egypt, the identification was explained
through myth. It is significant that Dionysus was said to have been born from
Zeus' "thigh" after he had swallowed the pregnant Semelë, who may be a later
addition to the story.
__________
--Odysseus
Maureen O'Brien
>Frey and Heimdal, ahd the Scoto-Irish Diarmid. Each of these deities
>was apparently a developed form of a primitive culture god, who was a
>deity of love, fertility, and vegetation;
I don't know about his other qualifications, but Diarmaid is not
generally regarded as an Irish god. He's a hero. Angus Og, who really
could be identified a bit better with this idea, is his fosterfather.
Ten to one, all this being focused on Diarmaid is the whole 'beds of
Diarmaid and Grainne' thing, where every menhir with two stones and
a lintel gets called someplace where Grainne and Diarmaid hid out from
Fionn.
Which really makes you wonder what scholarly folklore of the future
will make of "George Washington slept here."
Maureen
Philip Anderson
>Re: Mackenzie, which Mark Miller quoted:
>>Frey and Heimdal, ahd the Scoto-Irish Diarmid. Each of these deities
>>was apparently a developed form of a primitive culture god, who was a
>>deity of love, fertility, and vegetation;
>
>I don't know about his other qualifications, but Diarmaid is not
>generally regarded as an Irish god. He's a hero. Angus Og, who really
>could be identified a bit better with this idea, is his fosterfather.
>Ten to one, all this being focused on Diarmaid is the whole 'beds of
>Diarmaid and Grainne' thing, where every menhir with two stones and
>a lintel gets called someplace where Grainne and Diarmaid hid out from
>Fionn.
I suspect it was his death at the tusks of a boar which put him in that
company. Perhaps he was a god in origin, but the Diarmid we know is a
hero.
I think the idea that all ancient religion and mythology was about
fertility gods is generally discredited now; given the frequent
antipathy between pastoralists and agriculturalists, it seems unlikely
they would have had the same gods even. Anyway, for all the antiquity
claimed for the Great Goddess, if her origins were in agriculture this
is comparatively recent.
>Which really makes you wonder what scholarly folklore of the future
>will make of "George Washington slept here."
... and you can see the marks of his axe on the bedpost to this day!
I like the incident in Rip van Winkle, where he sees the inn sign of
King George touched up to be George Washington.
I've just been reading about a 91-year-old nun "who remembered the
excavation of this temple [of Artemis on Corfu/Kerkyra, with a gorgon
pediment] 'by five kings and three princes'", pointed out its altar and
"said that it was the tomb of a brother and three sisters, called
Athena, Gorgo, Kerkyra and Napoleon."
Richard Eney
Odysseus <odysseu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>through myth. It is significant that Dionysus was said to have been born from
>Zeus' "thigh" after he had swallowed the pregnant Semelė, who may be a later
>addition to the story.
>
He didn't "swallow" the pregnant Semele; he incinerated her by appearing
before he (at her request) in his full glorious god-form. He snatched the
infant Dionysios from her ashes and sewed him up inside his thigh until he
could be reborn at full term.
Swallowing Semele may be a garble of a different story, in which the child
Zagreus was set upon and devoured by "the Titans"; Zeus then fired a
barrage of thunderbolts at these Titans, reducing them to ashes. From
these ashes he snatched Zagreus' still-living heart and swallowed it, and
then later ejaculated it into Semele's womb so that Dionysios was Zagreus
reborn. His urethra must have been hurting for days afterward, but it
didn't seem to have made him any more sympathetic to the women and nymphs
he got pregnant.
-- Dick Eney
