Prometheus
Michael D Ellis
first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
Eshin-Fun
: Prometheus is my favorite god. listen to the discription. Made
: first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
: the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
: Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
You seem to have missed the point of whom and what Prometheus represents.
This is unfortunate, but not surprising in this day and age.
eshin
James Betley
>: first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
>: the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
>: Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
>
>
>This is unfortunate, but not surprising in this day and age.
I just love it when those 'in the know' hop on their soapboxes in
order to inform us, in the most condescending way possible, just what
'everything' means. Perhaps you could table your self-righteousness for the
day?
>eshin
>
jb
Not a flame, just an observation.
--
---- My opinions are my own
"The future sucks! Change it!"
"I'm pretty cool Beavis....But I can't change the future."
asa...@ac.dal.ca
> Prometheus is my favorite god. listen to the discription. Made
> first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
> the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
> Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
>
What does fire have to with sin?
-Ben
James Betley
Well, technically, it IS Prometheus' -sin- against Zeus.
>-Ben
jb
Mike Gallo
>In article <29e3id$8...@genesis.mcs.com>,
>Eshin-Fun <es...@genesis.MCS.COM> wrote:
>>
>>You seem to have missed the point of whom and what Prometheus represents.
>>This is unfortunate, but not surprising in this day and age.
>
> I just love it when those 'in the know' hop on their soapboxes in
>order to inform us, in the most condescending way possible, just what
>'everything' means. Perhaps you could table your self-righteousness for the
>day?
Actually, Eshin-Fun didn't even do that. EF didn't bother to tell us
"just what 'everything' means" but merely insulted the original
poster for his ignorance and left him in his alleged ignorance. A
real class act, eh?
--
My head hurts, my feet stink, and I don't love Jesus.
-- J. Buffett
Eshin-Fun
: In article <29e3id$8...@genesis.mcs.com>,
: Eshin-Fun <es...@genesis.MCS.COM> wrote:
: >Michael D Ellis (Ka...@cup.portal.com) wrote:
: >: Prometheus is my favorite god. listen to the discription. Made
: >: first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
: >: the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
: >: Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
: >
: >
: >You seem to have missed the point of whom and what Prometheus represents.
: >This is unfortunate, but not surprising in this day and age.
: I just love it when those 'in the know' hop on their soapboxes in
: order to inform us, in the most condescending way possible, just what
: 'everything' means. Perhaps you could table your self-righteousness for the
: day?
: >eshin
: >
: jb
: Not a flame, just an observation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And this is not condescending? If you really want to know anything, you have
to get over your authority figure complexes. It would help if you just learn
to ask. On what you do not know.
If you are going to make sweeping statements of opinion,then learn to accept other
peoples opinion as well. And this is not a flame either. Just an
observation.
eshin
Malcolm Cowe
What has Welsh got to do with rarebit? Looks like someone should be learning to read.
Zebra-man, god of tomorrow.
Bes
I don't see you illuminating much on the subject either. Prometheus to begin
with was not a "god" nor was he worshipped as one in antiquity. Comparing
fire to "sin" betrays an ignorance of what "sin" and "fire" represent,
neither which have much to do with each other except in the inferno images
of fire as a punishment for "sin".
Worse than "those in the know hopping on soapboxes in order to inform us" I
think are those who know nothing but are so hard up to be heard that they
arbitrarily make opinions on that which they have no idea of what they are
talking about.
bes
James Betley
Eshin-Fun <es...@genesis.MCS.COM> wrote:
>>James Betley (jbe...@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <29e3id$8...@genesis.mcs.com>,
>: Eshin-Fun <es...@genesis.MCS.COM> wrote:
>: >Michael D Ellis (Ka...@cup.portal.com) wrote:
>: >: Prometheus is my favorite god. listen to the discription. Made
>: >: first man and woman in the shape of gods. "You will be like gods knowing
>: >: the difference between good and evil". gave fire to man (fire=sin).
>: >: Rebeled against the god Zeus's rule. aw hell, read it yourself. does it fit?
>: >
>: >
>: >You seem to have missed the point of whom and what Prometheus represents.
>: >This is unfortunate, but not surprising in this day and age.
>
>: I just love it when those 'in the know' hop on their soapboxes in
>: order to inform us, in the most condescending way possible, just what
>: 'everything' means. Perhaps you could table your self-righteousness for the
>: day?
>
>
>: >eshin
>: >
>
>: jb
>
>: Not a flame, just an observation.
>
>And this is not condescending? If you really want to know anything, you have
>to get over your authority figure complexes. It would help if you just learn
>to ask. On what you do not know.
*sigh* My authority figure complexes? What by the three toe-sloth
hounds of the darkest depths of Niflhelm does that mean? I have an authority
complex because I took offense at your condescending attitude towards someone
who was merely offering an opinion? He asks, "Aw hell, read it yourself, does
it fit?" He wasn't trying to contest against your belief of the meaning of
the Prometheus myth (which you seem to be quite certain is the CORRECT and
RIGHT belief since you stated, with a self-righteous smugness: "You seem to
have missed the point" implying that you ARE IN THE KNOW as to what the POINT
is and this poor sod is NOT.)
You remind me of the english and (god forbid) religion teachers who
taught me in high school. They operated within a very strict relational
framework....in which THEY [insert your favorite THEY here] were the only ones
to determine the proper associations. If THEY thought 'fire' = 'sin' then BY
GOD fire=sin and woe upon the poor soul who thought differently, because not
only was he or she rebelling against AUTHORITY but he or she was just plain
WRONG WRONG WRONG!
I am not going to launch into a tirade about the meaning of myth's and
stories because I am going to presume that you realize that different people
have different takes on the same thing. If Mr. Ellis chooses to view the
Prometheus myth one way, and then 'asks for comments from his peers!' he does
not deserve the curt denial of his interpretation any more than you deserve
a curt denial of yours....
>If you are going to make sweeping statements of opinion,then learn to accept other
>peoples opinion as well. And this is not a flame either. Just an
>observation.
What you offered was not opinion, but rather a foundationless attack
on the opinion of another. If you do not see the distinction, then I am
afraid that I cannot help you...
>eshin
>
And if THIS distinction makes you feel any better:
This is not an observation, this is a FLAME.
jb
James Betley
>Mike Gallo (mi...@psg.com) wrote:
>with was not a "god" nor was he worshipped as one in antiquity. Comparing
>fire to "sin" betrays an ignorance of what "sin" and "fire" represent,
>neither which have much to do with each other except in the inferno images
>of fire as a punishment for "sin".
>
>Worse than "those in the know hopping on soapboxes in order to inform us" I
>think are those who know nothing but are so hard up to be heard that they
>arbitrarily make opinions on that which they have no idea of what they are
>talking about.
Not the point. Fire may only be representational of sin in the most
abstract sense in this myth, but the point of this whole, out of control
thread, is that Eshin did not explain why he thought that Mr. Ellis's
interpretation was erroneous, only told him he was wrong and, basically,
treated him like a child.
Now I realize that Eshin has a right to say anything that he chooses,
and in a perfect world, we'd all get along, and I probably should have just
kept my mouth shut and quit wasting bandwidth on this (now macho game of one
up manship which all flame type discussions turn out to be), but to be
completely honest...he pissed me off...
>bes
>
I must admit, my knowledge of the Prometheus myth may be only related
to the story itself, but you are saying that he was not worshipped as a
'god-figure' (or whatever you want to call him, he was a titan, I'm not sure
how you wan to classify them) even though he 'brought' fire to man? What was
Prometheus' relation to the classic Greek pantheon in antiquity..?
jb
william carl reichard
technology, and to see Zeus' punishment of Prometheus as a campaign to
keep humans in the dark. Fire was not the only skill that Prometheus
brought to human beings. It seems to be a common theme, both in ancient
myths (Prometheus, Daedulus) and modern lit (BladeRunner, Frankenstein),
that technology somehow belongs to the realm of the gods. Our
appropriation of it thus makes the accompanying punishments natural. Any
thoughts?
The only thing I didn't understand in Mr. Ellis's post was: does what fit?
-Will
James Betley
william carl reichard <wr...@unm.edu> wrote:
>I think it's interesting to view fire in the Prometheus myth as a
>technology, and to see Zeus' punishment of Prometheus as a campaign to
>keep humans in the dark. Fire was not the only skill that Prometheus
>brought to human beings. It seems to be a common theme, both in ancient
>myths (Prometheus, Daedulus) and modern lit (BladeRunner, Frankenstein),
>that technology somehow belongs to the realm of the gods. Our
>appropriation of it thus makes the accompanying punishments natural. Any
>thoughts?
I wonder if there is not a comparison which can be drawn between this
story and 'The Fall'. If the apple represents knowledge (read: technology)
then Adam and Eve are also punished for this appropriation. Even though the
manner is different (unless we consider the fact that, according to Greek
Mythology if I remember correctly, Prometheus himself fashioned man) then
Prometheus takes on the form of a 'good caring' -god- to humans who, unlike
the Christian god (and Zeus) does not try to withold this 'knowledge' from his
creations.
This is carrying it a bit far. But I have always been fascinated with
Prometheus' place in the Greek pantheon, as I mentioned in a previous post...
Again, does anyone know whether he was actively worshipped in antiquity? Or
was he more analagous to a 'prophet' or 'messiah' figure?
jb
>-Will
MEIDAN AMIR
>In article <29h6mu$j...@carina.unm.edu>,
>
> I wonder if there is not a comparison which can be drawn between this
>story and 'The Fall'. If the apple represents knowledge (read: technology)
>then Adam and Eve are also punished for this appropriation. Even though the
>manner is different (unless we consider the fact that, according to Greek
>Mythology if I remember correctly, Prometheus himself fashioned man) then
>Prometheus takes on the form of a 'good caring' -god- to humans who, unlike
>the Christian god (and Zeus) does not try to withold this 'knowledge' from his
>creations.
> This is carrying it a bit far. But I have always been fascinated with
>Prometheus' place in the Greek pantheon, as I mentioned in a previous post...
>Again, does anyone know whether he was actively worshipped in antiquity? Or
>was he more analagous to a 'prophet' or 'messiah' figure?
>
>jb
>
>
name Lucifer I believe means "Light-Bringer" (I'm not sure about that), and
in Christian theology, he is believed to have defied GOD. Both characters
have chosen to rebel against authority and the entity that represents it
(Judeo-Christian God or Zeus). It is interesting to note that Lucifer
was awarded with an "evil" stigma for his dis-obedience, while Prometheus
was not. Any comments?
--
The Great Amir of ECF * I may not agree with what you say, but
Ruler of his world, * I will defend to the death (ya right)
and the Universe as * your right to say it (Maybe?)!!!
he knows it. * Voltaire. (with help from me)
Paul Harvey
>In article <29ha3g$a...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
jbe...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (James Betley) writes:
>>In article <29h6mu$j...@carina.unm.edu>,
>> I wonder if there is not a comparison which can be drawn between this
>>story and 'The Fall'. If the apple represents knowledge (read: technology)
>>then Adam and Eve are also punished for this appropriation.
Not really. Try re-reading Genesis and see if you can figure it out. A&E
were created without knowledge of good and bad, as children are, and
they acquired it of their own initiative, more or less, with some help
from the cleverist of the animals, by partaking of the fruit of the tree
of knowledge of good and bad. Pretty straightforward really. The "Fall"
was a forced reading invented by Augustine. (imnsho) Or if you want, the
fall is part of the process of life - a baby doesn't want to leave the
womb, but it has no choice. And we were forced to eat the seeds of
grasses - all very post-Neolithic mythos.
>>Even though the
>>manner is different (unless we consider the fact that, according to Greek
>>Mythology if I remember correctly, Prometheus himself fashioned man) then
>>Prometheus takes on the form of a 'good caring' -god- to humans who, unlike
>>the Christian god (and Zeus) does not try to withold this 'knowledge' from his
>>creations.
>> This is carrying it a bit far. But I have always been fascinated with
>>Prometheus' place in the Greek pantheon, as I mentioned in a previous post...
>>Again, does anyone know whether he was actively worshipped in antiquity? Or
>>was he more analagous to a 'prophet' or 'messiah' figure?
Prophet is a Middle Eastern archetype. Messiah is a Persian archetype.
The Greco-Romans had gods and philosophers and lawyer/statesmen.
Prometheus was a Greek god.
>Actually, I recall reading a comparison between Prometheus and Lucifer. The
>name Lucifer I believe means "Light-Bringer" (I'm not sure about that), and
>in Christian theology, he is believed to have defied GOD. Both characters
>have chosen to rebel against authority and the entity that represents it
>(Judeo-Christian God or Zeus). It is interesting to note that Lucifer
>was awarded with an "evil" stigma for his dis-obedience, while Prometheus
>was not. Any comments?
There is no Lucifer in the Jewish scriptures, which shouldn't come as a
surprise since he's the Roman god of the morning star or the god who
brought light. Lucifer in the KJV is a result of a mistranslation in
Jerome's Vulgate. The good-evil duality is Persian Dualism and was
incorporated to some extent into Christianity and Islam. In the Jewish
Scriptures you will find the word "satan" which is a perfectly normal
Hebrew word for adversary. There is a myth of the fall of Satan from
Islamic scripture - in it Satan is the most loyal of all the angels. God
first tells the angels to bow to no one but He. Then God creates man and
tells the angels to bow also to man. Satan leads a revolt of angels who
refuse, thinking they've caught God in a paradox and besides they reason
that bowing to man would be disrespectfull of God. As punishment, God
banishes Satan and his angels to the underworld where their punishment
is to never see the face of the one they truly love ever again. Moral:
dogmaticism is just plain stupid, even for angels.
Eshin-Fun
: *sigh* My authority figure complexes? What by the three toe-sloth
: jb
I hit a nerve, Didn't I? ;-)
If you take trouble to review your charade, to which you are not even an
author of originally, you will find that you more than substantiate my
statements.
I am not your english or religion teachers [thank the gods!] though if I had
been I probably would have taught you a little bit better how to understand
what you read and comprehend theological metaphors a litle bit more profound
than the bovine ignorance you betray in your neurotic outbursts!
Besides an authority complex you also seem to betray a Messiah complex where
by you assume responsibility for any one's statements. If you truly believed
that Mr Ellis or I have the right to state our opinions then you have no
reason for your accusations. If you really understood what was said, let
alone the myth of Prometheus, you could have possibly clarified both sides.
But no. Instead you belat like a conceited ass, previously hurt by old
masters in assumed complaint of some one else's statements that really did
not concern you at all.
Now, you unmitigated, miniscule little insect, if you assume to flame me,
get on your asbestos suit, because if you keep it up I will not stop until
you are reduced to the atom of an ash!
I also do not have an interest in you personal life, past present or future,nor have asked to be enlightened on that morbid preoccupation. I WAS talking
about and in referance to the legend of Prometheus and its meanings.
If you cannot afford intelligent conversation on a subject that is brought
up, nor can enhance the understanding of it then have the least shred of
integrety and keep your verbal diarrhea to yourself.
If you do not appreciate a commentary, you are welcome to rebuttle but keep
in mind that this is a written communication and emotions are not easily
shared on bandwith.
The impostant thing, is understanding. Not criticism. And if critism is
made, in a sophisticated manner or not, we cannot take it personally like
you seem to have done. Yet understanding sometimes CAN come out of criticim
which should not always be taken "personally" as the idea of the critique is
swallowed up in the gross misinterpretation of it..again which you have
done.
If you do not know how to express yourself, then either learn, by swallowing
your pride or go back to those english and theology teachers you so
iniquitously criticize. Perhaps, you had something to learn from them after
all.
Eshin
James Betley
>In article <CEvGE...@ecf.toronto.edu>
>mei...@ecf.toronto.edu (MEIDAN AMIR) writes:
>>In article <29ha3g$a...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
>jbe...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (James Betley) writes:
>>>In article <29h6mu$j...@carina.unm.edu>,
>>> I wonder if there is not a comparison which can be drawn between this
>>>story and 'The Fall'. If the apple represents knowledge (read: technology)
>>>then Adam and Eve are also punished for this appropriation.
>
>Not really. Try re-reading Genesis and see if you can figure it out. A&E
>were created without knowledge of good and bad, as children are, and
>they acquired it of their own initiative, more or less, with some help
>from the cleverist of the animals, by partaking of the fruit of the tree
>of knowledge of good and bad. Pretty straightforward really. The "Fall"
>was a forced reading invented by Augustine. (imnsho) Or if you want, the
>fall is part of the process of life - a baby doesn't want to leave the
>womb, but it has no choice. And we were forced to eat the seeds of
>grasses - all very post-Neolithic mythos.
I would argue that, in a certain sense, discovering (or in the case
of Prometheus, being offered) 'technology', could be analagous to this
'partaking of the fruit of the tree'. In both cases, man and woman are
leaving 'simplicity' behind for both good and ill......*shrug* I know many
people who would have no problem with equating technology with evil (or
perhaps at least an awareness of 'evil')
>>>Even though the
>>>manner is different (unless we consider the fact that, according to Greek
>>>Mythology if I remember correctly, Prometheus himself fashioned man) then
>>>Prometheus takes on the form of a 'good caring' -god- to humans who, unlike
>>>the Christian god (and Zeus) does not try to withold this 'knowledge' from his
>>>creations.
>>> This is carrying it a bit far. But I have always been fascinated with
>>>Prometheus' place in the Greek pantheon, as I mentioned in a previous post...
>>>Again, does anyone know whether he was actively worshipped in antiquity? Or
>>>was he more analagous to a 'prophet' or 'messiah' figure?
>
>Prophet is a Middle Eastern archetype. Messiah is a Persian archetype.
>The Greco-Romans had gods and philosophers and lawyer/statesmen.
>Prometheus was a Greek god.
Actually, he was a Titan, the children of the sky and the earth, who
predated the Gods....That is not what I was asking. What I wanted to know was
how he was worshipped by the ancients, if indeed, he was worshipped at all.
>>Actually, I recall reading a comparison between Prometheus and Lucifer. The
>>name Lucifer I believe means "Light-Bringer" (I'm not sure about that), and
>>in Christian theology, he is believed to have defied GOD. Both characters
>>have chosen to rebel against authority and the entity that represents it
>>(Judeo-Christian God or Zeus). It is interesting to note that Lucifer
>>was awarded with an "evil" stigma for his dis-obedience, while Prometheus
>>was not. Any comments?
>
>There is no Lucifer in the Jewish scriptures, which shouldn't come as a
>surprise since he's the Roman god of the morning star or the god who
>brought light. Lucifer in the KJV is a result of a mistranslation in
>Jerome's Vulgate. The good-evil duality is Persian Dualism and was
>incorporated to some extent into Christianity and Islam. In the Jewish
>Scriptures you will find the word "satan" which is a perfectly normal
>Hebrew word for adversary. There is a myth of the fall of Satan from
>Islamic scripture - in it Satan is the most loyal of all the angels. God
>first tells the angels to bow to no one but He. Then God creates man and
>tells the angels to bow also to man. Satan leads a revolt of angels who
>refuse, thinking they've caught God in a paradox and besides they reason
>that bowing to man would be disrespectfull of God. As punishment, God
>banishes Satan and his angels to the underworld where their punishment
>is to never see the face of the one they truly love ever again. Moral:
>dogmaticism is just plain stupid, even for angels.
Out of curiousity then, the snake in the garden of Eden represents
what? If we view the tale as a metaphor for 'humanity's leaving of the womb',
then the snake is.....awareness?
jb
James Betley
Have we anything creative to offer to the discussion? Your flames
make me chuckle..
>Eshin
Paul Harvey
> I would argue that, in a certain sense, discovering (or in the case
>of Prometheus, being offered) 'technology', could be analagous to this
>'partaking of the fruit of the tree'. In both cases, man and woman are
>leaving 'simplicity' behind for both good and ill......*shrug* I know many
>people who would have no problem with equating technology with evil (or
>perhaps at least an awareness of 'evil')
The fundamental change was from paleolithic man to neolithic man. The
life of neolithic man is not an easy one - along with good comes bad. We
still live with this legacy today - it's not at all clear that the
neolithic experiment is sustainable on this planet. We moderns have
produced much that is good, but also much that is bad.
> Actually, he was a Titan, the children of the sky and the earth, who
>predated the Gods....That is not what I was asking. What I wanted to know was
>how he was worshipped by the ancients, if indeed, he was worshipped at all.
I don't know how to answer that question - except that you'll note that
it's common mythology to have old gods and then new gods who replace the
old gods - that's the idea of the neolithic revolution. You'll find that
even in the Jewish scriptures although there it probably represents the
iron-age revolution (Lion-Iron-Zion). And again in the Christianity of
Constantine where the sun god (Sol Invictus/Mithras) has come to replace
the old God of the Middle East.
> Out of curiousity then, the snake in the garden of Eden represents
>what? If we view the tale as a metaphor for 'humanity's leaving of the womb',
>then the snake is.....awareness?
The snake is an ancient metaphor. It's the animal that can shed its skin
and thus has the power of rebirth. Humanity has learned a lot from
observing animal behavior - the snake in Genesis represents a hint of
the ancient animalism of Sumer and Egypt.
Mark Eaton
> : This is not an observation, this is a FLAME.
>
>
>
> been I probably would have taught you a little bit better how to understand
> what you read and comprehend theological metaphors a litle bit more profound
> than the bovine ignorance you betray in your neurotic outbursts!
>
> get on your asbestos suit, because if you keep it up I will not stop until
> you are reduced to the atom of an ash!
>
> I also do not have an interest in you personal life, past present or future,nor have asked to be enlightened on that morbid preoccupation. I WAS talking
> about and in referance to the legend of Prometheus and its meanings.
>
> If you cannot afford intelligent conversation on a subject that is brought
> up, nor can enhance the understanding of it then have the least shred of
> integrety and keep your verbal diarrhea to yourself.
Would you both just KNOCK IT OFF! Sheesh. If you don't have anything
usefull to
say, shut up!
As far as fire == sin goes, it was always my interpretation that the
meaning
of fire was irrelevant. The *gift* of fire from Prometheus to man was the
sin in that Prometheus was dis-obeying Zeus. Since Zeus is supreme, his
word is law,
and dis-obeying that law is a sin. Therefore the *gift* of fire was a sin,
not
fire itself...
And with re: Prometheus == Satan, I also disagree. Prometheus dis-obeyed
Zeus'
law out of compassion for man. Satan betrayed Adam & Eve out of spite.
--
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Mark Eaton
uc52...@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Steve Carrobis
FYI - a lucifer is a match. (Fire bringer)
i believe its old english....
---
Steve C.
==> A wise man once told me - There ARE NO Wise Men !
- Just fools who think they are.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I understand you need someone to do work.
I don't do work, but, I know this guy who does.
-Vladimir Taltos
---------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel S OConnell
I think the serpent represents consciousness, awareness, possibly sexual
knowledge. I think it's a very interesting story...
--
Daniel S. O'Connell
Meadville/Lombard Theological School
University of Chicago Divinity School
<dsoc...@midway.uchicago.edu>
Jennifer Carolyn Boggess
"Fire and Water mixed together,
Add to this some salt and tin;
Tell me, ladies, tell me whether
In this mixture there is sin."
- Boggles
jbog...@owlnet.rice.edu
Judas
>> Actually, I recall reading a comparison between Prometheus and Lucifer. The
>> name Lucifer I believe means "Light-Bringer" (I'm not sure about that), and
>
>i believe its old english....
>
>---
>Steve C.
FYI - Lucifer (with a capital L) is latin for light-bearer: lux, lucis = light
+ ferre = to bear
Just to clarify that the dude mistaken
in translation from Satan (Hebrew for
adversary _not_ consumate evil) was _not_ a match-stick!
- Judas
DAVID S CARRON
As someone else said the snake is a symbol of rebirth and reincarnation.
But this was picked up by the native Europians (Not the Indo-Europians who
killed/assimulated them later) who were Goddess worshipers. This is about
4000 BC?, I think. It's these people who made the Venus figurines...
Sure, being a Pagan religion it only fits more so that it's phallic as well,
especialy as part of the price of the sin was the relization of clothing...
Mostly it's to associate 'evil' with this pre-christian symbol and The first
sin. Plus woman get some of the fallout too. (Especally with this Goddess
Religion)
There are probaly MANY things you can pull out of it actually... Hurm...
Richard Lee Winterstein
>
[deletions]
>FYI - Lucifer (with a capital L) is latin for light-bearer: lux, lucis = light
> + ferre = to bear
>
> Just to clarify that the dude mistaken
> in translation from Satan (Hebrew for
> adversary _not_ consumate evil) was _not_ a match-stick!
*but* he could be a real firebrand!! :) :)
Thomas O. Myer
That technology is seen as instruments of the divine (or at least metaphysical)
is an interesting notion that deserves a hard look.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of a few examples in Medieval Lit
where technology seems to be handed down from a higher source: Beowulf cannot
kill Grendel's mother with his sword, but must use a sword on a wall
which has the Flood Narrative on it (it is also noteworthy that God showed
the sword to Beowulf).
In our age of gunpowder and armored vehicles we forget that the sword is
an incredible leg up from just a club or bare hands. The weapon has leaked
into our every day vocabulary: when we say that this culture or that culture
advanced "by progress of the sword," images of Turks, Mongols and Huns come
to mind. What about, "Live by the sword, die by the sword?" This is where
the consequence of technology comes in: we are all building better and
better mousetraps in which to kill each other, while the gods laugh.
Back to my Beowulf example, when it came time for him to die by dragonfire
(his wyrd, so to speak) nothing could save him, not his armor, not his
sword, not his courage. The dragon, as existential agent, snuffed him out
because its power was greater than Beowulf's technology.
What about the technology of the word? Sometime in 4000 BC unga the sheep
herder needed a way to keep track of his sheep, and came up with a way to
record them so he wouldn't have to remember. It's an oversimplification,
but look how far we've come, through written manuscripts to the printing
press in 1471 to typewriters and computers and finally cyberspace and
electronic tex
Everything recorded comes from a higher plane, a divine plane, if you will.
Why else would there be a need to invoke the Muses, or in the catch-phrase
of latter-day writers, to "dive into the depths of the soul." It all seems
to point to a Higher Being, and we mortals just had a need to write it all
down, whether it be tales of gods and nymphs, or the siege of Troy or a
pilgrimage to Canterbury.
(I guess this is rambling, but its better than using up bandwidth to flame
someone who was only expressing a sentiment).
JJ...@psuvm.psu.edu
just eternal like his brother Atlas. Not to start
an argument, but if you met Atlas on the street and
referred to him as a god, who's going to flame you?
Know many humans who carry the world on their shoulders?
Anyway, Epimetheus is great; always opening his mouth before
he thinks and then having to spend twenty or thirty postings
of afterthoughts just to confuse everybody. He keeps correcting
everybody's innocent and well-meant statements, the world's
first "expert" . While his brother Prometheus brought mankind
fire, it was Epimetheus who gave us flames.
Like it says in the Theo-dicey:
"And so Pandora opened the box and out flew animosity.
small-mindedness, bickering, self agrandisement, and the
anal retentive personality. They circled the room, slipped
out the window and covered the earth. Pandora was bummed.
Epimetheus looked into the box and found there at the bottom,
sort of stuck in a corner and crumbled up, the gift Prometheus
thought to put in: a college diploma. It wasn't much,
but it really went well with all of the other attitudes
Epimetheus had just sucked in. So he tacked it up on
his wall and never let anyone forget it."
Greeks claim that this titanic bore was pummelled to
death by his peers. ;->
..............................................................
Jason Charnesky < "We here reach a point
e-mail: JJ...@psuvm.psu.edu > of some obscurity."
BitNet: JJC10 at PSU < Jeff Nealon
Niki LeBoeuf
> Prometheus is often said to have created mankind out of clay, twice.
>No matter how close giving fire may be to evoking sin, Satan is not
>credited with creating mankind, except perhaps by Voltaire.
I'd forgotten that... About the creation of mankind, I mean. But still,
the similarity between Prometheus giving man Fire, and Lucifer being the
Light Bringer, both being punished by the main Deity (Zeus / God) for
rebellion, is hard to ignore. Especially when you add the Sepent in Eden
myth.
And I didn't equate fire with sin. Not in the least. I compared Prometheus
with Lucifer because Lucifer was the LIGHT-GIVER. Something like that. I
wasn't comparing Prometheus with sin and temptation, but Lucifer with
light and knowledge.
--The Vortex
--
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ +*+ *+* +* +
+ "Mistress of the dark unconscious, mermaid of the lunar sea..." -N.Peart
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ +*+ *+* +* +
vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us
Marc Power,EQPTDEV
I always thought that Lucifer and Lucifera were Roman titles of
Apollo and Artemis (or Apollo & Diana), the Sun and the Moon
respectively, and that all this lucifer=satan stuff merely the
attempts of early Christianity to make themselves right by making
all others wrong.
Consequently: Prometheus != Lucifer
However, Prometheus=Ptah (Eqyptian God) might work, since they
are both 'elder' Gods and both attributed with creating man
(from clay).
Any ideas, anybody?
Cheers!
Marc Power
mpo...@jpmorgan.com
I don't speak for them - they don't speak for me.
Zen, philosopher at large
Niki LeBoeuf <vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> wrote:
>In <2aqnvh$5...@scratchy.reed.edu> orp...@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne - Jones) writes:
>> Prometheus is often said to have created mankind out of clay, twice.
>>No matter how close giving fire may be to evoking sin, Satan is not
>>credited with creating mankind, except perhaps by Voltaire.
>I'd forgotten that... About the creation of mankind, I mean. But still,
>the similarity between Prometheus giving man Fire, and Lucifer being the
>Light Bringer, both being punished by the main Deity (Zeus / God) for
>rebellion, is hard to ignore. Especially when you add the Sepent in Eden
>myth.
Well... not really, anyway. It was actually Epimetheus who created Mankind,
out of... gold, bronze, iron, then clay... I think.
>And I didn't equate fire with sin. Not in the least. I compared Prometheus
>with Lucifer because Lucifer was the LIGHT-GIVER. Something like that. I
>wasn't comparing Prometheus with sin and temptation, but Lucifer with
>light and knowledge.
Well, if you say that Lucifer was the serpent, then he certainly did bring
enlightenment (fire, technology, knowledge) to Man - interesting parallel
with Prometheus there.
Zen, philosopher-at-large
--
Unlike subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on
a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be the ultimate
reality then we're permitted only one construction of things - that which
corresponds to the "objective" world - and all other constructions are unreal.
Larry A. Caldwell
>Consequently: Prometheus != Lucifer
>Any ideas, anybody?
Well, Prometheus was a Titan, all right. The name means forethought, so the
association with maintaining the tribal fire is obvious. Promeheus was
probably a fire god of the pre-greek inhabitants of the mediterranean
shoreline, possibly the megalithic monument builders. A contemporary god,
Python, was incorporated/conquered by Delphian Apollo/Athena Pronaos, and is
a much more likely equivalent for the serpent of Jewish mythology.
An interesting bit of trivia is that the Delphian games predate all the
other ancient Greek games by hundreds of years, and were originally held
only once every eight years. After the Olympiad became dominant the games
were changed to every four years to fit with the cycle of the other three
games.
Evidently the Delphian games were competitions in philosophy, poetry, and
possibly prophecy/magic. Several of the early Ionian philosophers speak
glowingly of Athena Pronaos. I suspect that priestesses conferred sexual
favors on the winners, and that the early greeks were really engaged in a
human selective breeding program. I see the references to "the son of Zeus"
to mean that the father of a child was the winner of an olympic competition.
This is pretty speculative, but it fits well enough with my understanding of
ancient Greek character and religion.
--
-- My opinions, as always, are my own, and yours too if you agree.
If you don't like my opinions, you don't have to read 'em.
lar...@teleport.com Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
This space leased. Real unix, too! Printed on 100% recycled electrons.
TAE S SON
>
>Well, Prometheus was a Titan, all right. The name means forethought, so the
>association with maintaining the tribal fire is obvious. Promeheus was
>probably a fire god of the pre-greek inhabitants of the mediterranean
>shoreline, possibly the megalithic monument builders. A contemporary god,
>Python, was incorporated/conquered by Delphian Apollo/Athena Pronaos, and is
>a much more likely equivalent for the serpent of Jewish mythology.
>
Prometheus was the Titan who, with his brother (I can't remember his name
right now, but it means afterthough), gave all the animals special abilities
unique to each individual animal. They gave the bear its size and
strength, the tiger its gracefullness and so on. When they finally came to
man, they had no more special abilities to give out, so Prometheus sneaked
up to Mt. Olympus and stole fire giving it to man. Well, Zues grabbed
Prometheus and chained him to a rock face where the vultures pecked at him
and ate part of his flesh as a punishment.
There's another myth of Prometheus where his brother was given a box by the
gods. His brother's wife was of course Pandora and she opened the box
letting out all the afflictions of man and stuff (disease, depression, etc.).
Harold Woods
>mpo...@jpmorgan.com (Marc Power,EQPTDEV) writes:
>>In article s09...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us,
vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Niki LeBoeuf) writes:
>Well, Prometheus was a Titan, all right.
My records, which aren't always right, have Prometheus as being the son of
a Titan, not a Titan. His father was the Titan, Iapetos. Some say that his
brother is Epimetheus who is the actual creator. Altas, another brother,
held the earth. The whole family appears to be have been pro-human and
generally not submissive to Zeus. In other words, they are develish.
>glowingly of Athena Pronaos. I suspect that priestesses conferred sexual
>favors on the winners, and that the early greeks were really engaged in a
>human selective breeding program. I see the references to "the son of Zeus"
>to mean that the father of a child was the winner of an olympic competition.
Richard Lee Winterstein
>In <2bun19$6...@kelly.teleport.com> lar...@teleport.com (Larry A. Caldwell) writes:
>
>>mpo...@jpmorgan.com (Marc Power,EQPTDEV) writes:
>
>>>In article s09...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us,
>vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Niki LeBoeuf) writes:
>
>
>>Well, Prometheus was a Titan, all right.
>
>My records, which aren't always right, have Prometheus as being the son of
>a Titan, not a Titan. His father was the Titan, Iapetos. Some say that his
>brother is Epimetheus who is the actual creator. Altas, another brother,
>held the earth. The whole family appears to be have been pro-human and
>generally not submissive to Zeus. In other words, they are develish.
>
but Aeschylus made him a Titan for dramatic purposes.
Eshin-Fun
: In article <2bun19$6...@kelly.teleport.com> lar...@teleport.com (Larry A. Caldwell) writes:
: Prometheus was the Titan who, with his brother (I can't remember his name
: right now, but it means afterthough).......
His name is EPIMITHEUS (correct) meaning after thought. Epimitheus was the
husband of Pandora.
....... Well, Zues grabbed
: Prometheus and chained him to a rock face where the vultures pecked at him
: and ate part of his flesh as a punishment.
I believe that it was an >eagle< that swooped down and ate his liver during
the day? while the liver grew back in at night. I don't quite remember the
diurnal arrangement... but I do believe it was an >eagle< which is sacred to
Zeus anyway.
: There's another myth of Prometheus where his brother was given a box by the
: gods. His brother's wife was of course Pandora and she opened the box
: letting out all the afflictions of man and stuff (disease, depression, etc.).
But don't forget that she closed the lid to the box (or jar as others would
say) before one last thing got out.......>hope<!
Eshin
Niki LeBoeuf
>>In article s09...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us, vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Niki LeBoeuf) writes:
>>I always thought that Lucifer and Lucifera were Roman titles of
>>Apollo and Artemis (or Apollo & Diana), the Sun and the Moon
etc. Just had to let ya'll know, someone got their quotes screwy. I didn't
write any of this.
Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled scholarly discussions.
--The Vortex
--
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
+ "Some need to pray to the sun at high noon,
* Need to howl at the midwinter moon..." -N.Peart
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us
Nada L'User
the possibility of a relationship between Prometheus and Lucifer, I have
some thoughts.
The fire-bringing, wisdom-teaching angels in the Hebrew tradition were not
the ones that fell with Lucifer but rather another group who fell just
prior to the flood (in fact the flood was specifically designed to
slaughter them and their offspring, which it failed to do). This group
derived from a sub-class of angels called "watchers" who seem to be record
keepers (witnesses). Lucifer was a musician, not a scribe. The fallen
watchers, however, seem to have played a similar role to Prometheus and his
brother. It can be found in the pseudepigraphical book of Enoch. Highly
recommended (true-believers beware, you will not like it, the church
fathers outlawed it as dangerous).
The scribe connection, by the way, works well for the suggestion one of you
made a few messages back that Prometheus might equate with Ptah many of
whose attributes were inherited by Thoth, the Egyptian scribe usually
equated with Hermes, also a cheat like Prometheus.
-- Nada
My employer has no opinions and is generally clueless.