Chronology of Greek Mythology
Agamemnon
The Beginning
The Birth of the World.
1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
1770 Gia gives birth to Uranus (the Sky)
1750 Uranus rapes Gia.
The Hekadoncheries, Cyclopes and the Titans are born from Gia.
1720 The Titans fight Uranus and eventually he is defeated by Cronos.
Cronos cuts of Uranus' genitals with a sickle and throws them towards
Kythara. The sea begins to froth and Aphrodite emerges naked from the sea
off the coast of Cyprus.
The Reign of the Titans.
1715-1675 BC Cronos becomes ruler of Olympus. Golden Age of Mankind
Cronos imprisons the Hekadoncheries and Cyclopes in Tartarus. This is
located in the underworld.
He then organises the Titans. Each Titan is given his dominion. Palace is
built at Olympus.
1700 BC Cronos hears a prophecy from Gia (Earth).
Cronos is warned not to take Rhea as his wife or have children with her,
otherwise one of his children will dethrone him.
Cronos takes Rhea as his wife, who gives birth to Hera, Demeter, Hestia,
Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus.
Cronos swallows his children in order to avoid the prophesy.
A stone is substituted by Rhea in place of Zeus.
Zeus is taken by mother into hiding on Earth.
The Rise of the Gods
1700-1675 BC Zeus grows up and is visited secretly by his mother.
When grown he makes plans together with Rhea and Gia to free his brothers
and sisters.
Zeus goes to Olympus in disguise and sits at dinner with the Titans and his
father who thinking Zeus had been swallowed does not recognise him.
Zeus makes Cronos drunk, who then vomits out the gods he swallowed. The
stone is also vomited. Cronos sees the stone and recognises Zeus.
Zeus and his brothers fight Cronos to make their getaway. They then release
the Hekadoncheries and the Cyclopes from imprisonment in Tartarus, who
become their allies.
1675 Zeus attacks the Titans.
Some Titans side with Zeus, i.e. Prometheus, Epimetheus.
Atlas is commander of the Titans loyal to Cronos.
1670 Victory for Zeus.
Cronos is exiled to Elysia.
Atlas is punished by being made to carry the heavens on his shoulders.
Zeus and the other gods draw lots for their position in the new regime. Zeus
gets to rule the heavens, Poseidon the sea and Hades the underworld. The
land is common to all of the gods.
The Affairs of the Gods.
1675-1628 The Silver or second of the Five ages of mankind begins.
1675 Zeus takes his sister Hera as wife
1675-1665 Births of Hephaestus, Ares, Eris, Hephaestus, Hebe.
1670 Zeus has various affairs with the other gods and Titans. (see family
trees.)
1667 Zeus has affair Io the daughter of Inarchus the son of Oceanus and
carry’s her of the Egypt.
1655 Births of Apollo, Hermes, Athene by different mothers.
1660 Phoroneus the first man rules Argolis
Prometheus gives man the secret of fire.
Prometheus is punished.
The gods create Pandora. Epimetheus is given Pandora to be his wife.
Pandora is given a bottle as a wedding present and told not to open it.
Pandora opens it and mankind suffers the consequences.
1628 The battle of the Gods and Giants. Typhon is defeated and imprisoned
under a volcano.
1628-1460 BC The Brazen, or third of the five ages of mankind
1628 Zeus seduces Niobe the daughter of Phoroneus (first of Zeus affairs
with mortal women)
1560 Apollo kills Argus/Triopus
1500-1460 Lycaon provokes the Gods anger
The Heroic Age
1460-1103 BC The Heroic second brazen, or fourth of the five ages of mankind
1460 Danus and Aegyptus begin feuding
1453 A Flood is sent by Zeus to destroy all of mankind. Deucalion and his
family who escaped in an Ark which Zeus tells him to build
1453 Cadmus colonises Bootia and founds Thebes
1413 Erichthonius rules at Athens
1413 Erichthonius rules at Troy
1405 Zeus violates Europe, birth of Minos
1405 Dionysus the son of Zeus and Semele daughter of Cadmus is born
1380 Minos becomes king of Crete
1365 Perseus son of Danae by Zeus is born
1345 Pegasus the winged horse born from Medusas blood
1342-1332 The Sons of Perseus and Andromeda are born
1336 Bellerophon
1315-1282 Pelops flees Asia Minor
1293 Alcius the son of Perseus kills Busaris the king of Egypt and his son
February 10 1286 Herakles is conceived during a total solar eclipse. Zeus
extends one night into three
October 31 1286 Herakles is born
1286-1264 Sthenelus takes throne of Mycenae after Amphytrion kills Electryon
son of Perseus
1280 Minos grandson Minos becomes king of Crete
1280 Phrixus is taken to Colchis by a Golden Lamb
1264-1246 The tragedy of Oedepus
1264-1252 The Labours of Herakles take place while Eurestheus is High King
of Mycenae
1253 or 1245 The Caledonian Boar hunt
1252-1249 or 1244-1240 Games to choose crew of Argo. The voyage of Jason and
the Argonaughts
1252-1248 Herakles is sold as a slave to Omphale
1248 The story of Orpheus and Euridice
1248-1244 Herakles settles old scores in the Peloponnese
1248 The birth of Achilles
1246 Theseus kills the Minotaur
1244 Herakles marries Deianara
1230 The birth of Paris
1226 The births Castor, Polyduces, Clytemnestra & Helen (Last of Zeus's
affairs with mortals)
1223-1103 BC The Hellenic Wars
1223 Atreus takes the throne of Mycenae for the second time.
1223 The birth of Agamemnon
1223 Laius becomes father of Odysseus. Heracles dies and becomes a god.
1230 The 7 against Thebes
1220 The Epigoni attack Thebes
1210 The death of Theseus
1205 The Beauty contest
1193-1183 The siege of Troy
1184 The attempted sacrifice of Iphigenia
1183 The capture of Troy
1183-1182 The return and murder of Agamemnon
1183-1173 The Odessy
1173-1123 The vengeance of Orestes and return of Iphigenia
1103 The Heraklids defeat Tsiamneus the son of Orestes and take Myceane.
1103 The last of the five ages of mankind the Iron age
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
Dan Norder
Greece is the birthplace of the entire world, wrote:
>CHRONOLOGY/TIMELINE
>
>The Beginning
>
>The Birth of the World.
>
>1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
[snip]
This is as whacky as the timeline put forth by the whacky Christians who insist
that the world started less than 10,000 years ago and that the Bible is
historically accurate figuratively and literally.
Please stop changing your forged email address. Everyone's killfiles need a
stable address to latch onto effectively.
Franklin Cacciutto
This item includes both a misspelling and a misidentification. See the thread,
Hermes, Penelope, and Pan, in alt.mythology.
Agamemnon
"Franklin Cacciutto" <shad...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C4A255D...@earthlink.net...
> 1173 Hermes fathers Pan by Panelope wife of Odysseus
>
> This item includes both a misspelling and a misidentification. See the
thread,
> Hermes, Penelope, and Pan, in alt.mythology.
>
Herodotus:
[2.145.1] The Greeks regard Hercules, Bacchus, and Pan as the youngest of
the gods. With the Egyptians, contrariwise, Pan is exceedingly ancient, and
belongs to those whom they call "the eight gods," who existed before the
rest. Hercules is one of the gods of the second order, who are known as "the
twelve"; and Bacchus belongs to the gods of the third order, whom the twelve
produced. I have already mentioned how many years intervened according to
the Egyptians between the birth of Hercules and the reign of Amasis. From
Pan to this period they count a still longer time; and even from Bacchus,
who is the youngest of the three, they reckon fifteen thousand years to the
reign of that king. In these matters they say they cannot be mistaken, as
they have always kept count of the years, and noted them in their registers.
But from the present day to the time of Bacchus, the reputed son of Semele,
daughter of Cadmus, is a period of not more than sixteen hundred years; to
that of Hercules, son of Alcmena, is about nine hundred; while to the time
of Pan, son of Penelope (Pan, according to the Greeks, was her child by
Mercury), is a shorter space than to the Trojan war, eight hundred years or
thereabouts.
Constantinos Catsoulis
Otherwise they should not have improved such a perfect language! It is very
possible that Zeus the king, lived around 10000 BC! His civilization was
destroyed in the Defkalion cataclysm which took place the 10000 BC!After the
ices in the orth melted and many earthquakes covered the whole area where
this great people lived!
The best monument of their civilization is the language!
"Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a2aa11$l1r$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
sarah
>
> The Beginning
>
> The Birth of the World.
>
> 1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
Self-indulgent adolescent crap snipped.
The _planet_ is over 4 million years old.
Human culture is over 50,000 yrs old, depending on whether we define
"culture" as any indication that man possesses a knowledge of
spiritual immortality (an "afterlife", or death rituals).
The date at which a _particular_ portion or theme of the ancient
Greek mythology was created cannot be determined on a timeline as you
have presented it. Only _historical_ events can be so determined:
developments of religious mythology cannot, unless they can be
documented as connected to historical events, such as the explosion of
the island of Kalliste/Thera ca. 1637 BCE.
Certain general _themes_ of mythology, such as the dominance of
Zeus/Hera in the late Greek (post-Mykenean) religious hierarchy, may
be roughly established due to archaeological documentation of Greek
expansion/colonization of Anatolia (Zeus being a late development of
the Hittite/Hurrian Teshub/Tesup, and Hera being a form of Hepa/Hebat,
his consort). Prior to the importation of Zeus/Hera to the Greek
Olympian cult, the dominant deity of the Mykenean Greek religious
hierarchy was Potidan/Poseidon, as discussed in my articles on Greek
mythology on my website:
http://solitaire_2.tripod.com/notes_gkmyth.htm. As an earth god as
well as the deity of the sea and subterranean waters (springs), he was
also Python of Delphi and Thessaly.
I think you need to focus a bit more on a comparative study of the
various mythologies of the eastern Mediterranean, rather than such a
specific focus on an attempt to link _mythical_ themes/elements to any
historical "timeline", particularly without any historical
justification or connections.
In the case of the importation of Zeus/Hera, following the fall of the
Hittite empire after the Thera disaster (which affected the entire
eastern Mediterranean as well as Egypt and Libya), Mykenean Greeks
moved into what remained of Kretan culture (which had previously
dominated the eastern Med, including the coastal areas of western and
southern Anatolia). Greeks ruled in Knossos, and moved into the copper
industry in Cyprus. Following the migration of large numbers of
Kretans to areas of Anatolia (those areas not as affected by ashfall
from Thera, in the north, south of the Trojan area of influence) and
to Palestine (where they formed the first outposts of what later
became known as the Philistine culture), the Mykeneans established
trade with the new settlements, and established settlements of their
own in western and southern Anatolia. The Greek settlers assimilated
the local Hittite/Hurrian deities to their own pantheon, and put
Zeus/Tesup in place of Potidan/Poseidon, who was seen to have been the
"bad guy" in the Thera disaster: as Poseidon ruled earthquakes, tidal
waves, and marine volcanic islands like Kalliste/Thera, Lesbos --
where Hephaistos, another earth/fire god, lived -- and mountains
(including ancient and semi-somnolent volcanic mountains which could
unexpectedly "wake up" and erupt), he was apparently blamed for this
disaster, and one of his aspects was propitiated as "Python/Typhon"
thereafter.) When the Dorians moved into Greece from the north, they
adopted "Zeus" from the Mykeneans as a variation of their own
storm/sky god. As the clouds/storms dissipated the ash and
contributed to the renovation of the culture/economy of the eastern
Med in the centuries after Thera, he was seen as more _positive_ than
Potidan/Poseidon, and became the "ruler" of the Olympic pantheon in
the Greek religious cultus of the post-Mykenean/Dorian period, while
Potidan/Poseidon increasingly was accorded responsibility for various
disasters of the time (floods, earthquakes, sinking coastlines, ships
sunk in storms, etc).
Agamemnon
"Constantinos Catsoulis" <gat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2dt86$8gf$1...@nic.grnet.gr...
> I don't get it my friend! The greeks are more than 30000 years old!
> Otherwise they should not have improved such a perfect language! It is
very
> possible that Zeus the king, lived around 10000 BC! His civilization was
> destroyed in the Defkalion cataclysm which took place the 10000 BC!After
the
> ices in the orth melted and many earthquakes covered the whole area where
> this great people lived!
> The best monument of their civilization is the language!
GET REAL. Greek recorded history goes back no further than 1800 BC since
this is as far as Linear-A inscriptions go. Nobody in Greece would have
known about anyone living before that time and even if they peeked at older
Egyptian records they would still not have known what occurred before 3000
BC assuming the Egyptians had even heard of them.
Anyway I've now made a few minor corrections to my chronology to accommodate
some events I forgot to include and bring it more in line with the
archaeology and also put up a complete Mycenaean king list.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/GreekKings.htm
> > http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
> >
> >
>
>
Agamemnon
"sarah" <soli...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com...
> "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:<a2aa11$l1r$1...@helle.btinternet.com>...
> > CHRONOLOGY/TIMELINE
> >
> > The Beginning
> >
> > The Birth of the World.
> >
> > 1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
>
> Self-indulgent adolescent crap snipped.
>
SHEER POPPYCOCK MY DEAR.
The Gods of the Greeks were the tribal memories of their own ancestors and
the civilisation which flourished under them. They were not imported from
anywhere. They lived and ruled Greece before the time of the Thera eruption.
Your rant about Hittite this and Anatolian is not going to fool anyone. Only
the first 160 years of my chronology refers to the time of the Gods. There
is still over 500 years worth of history concerning Mortals that you cannot
possibly refute by claiming it all came from elsewhere. Why would the Greek
have invented it all ?
The only rational explanation that fits in with the archaeological evidence
is that these people lived at the time the Greek myths say they lived.
Nobody could have calculated the dates of the only 3 total solar eclipses
that were visible over the Aegean during the Heroic Ages at the time when
Homer was writing. There was no NASA then. The only way these events could
have been accurately referred to in the mythological account is if they were
recorded at the time they occurred and the records passed down from
generation form generation.
The names of virtually all the Greek Gods are recorded in Linear-B
inscriptions dating from 1250 BC so there is no reason to dismiss the
accounts of Homer in the Iliad where sacrifices are given and the reasons
for them. Herakles, Jason and Achilles were all real people.
The Greek religion started of as an ancestor cult created by Argus the son
of Zeus and Niobe and by the time of Mycenaean domination in 1450 BC it was
established as the universal religion of the state and incorporated methods
of worship imported from Egypt and adapted by the Greeks for their own use.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/GreekKings.htm
Sollers
Greek, particularly the earlier forms, is in linguistic terms a very
primitive language; it uses a dual number as well as singular and plural,
and cases where more developed languages (for a reason I'll go into later,
if you like) use prepositions; also specific tenses where, for the same
reason, more developed languages use auxiliary verbs.
Of course, we do not have records of any truly primitive languages, as they
go back at least to the emergence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens and we have no
evidence until writing emerges; but the earliest forms of Greek are very
similar to the other early languages in the same language group, which
indicates that it had not developed very far from them when the written
record begins.
"Constantinos Catsoulis" <gat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2dt86$8gf$1...@nic.grnet.gr...
Sollers
unrewarding task because the sources are so fragmentary; all we have are
references in various plays and poems, some of which are contradictory, and
there are likely to be huge gaps because we know that a lot of the literary
sources have been lost.
Voyager
----- Original Message -----
From: Sollers <sol...@pemmaddison.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.history.ancient,alt.mythology
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Chronology of Greek Mythology
> I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of language development.
> Greek, particularly the earlier forms, is in linguistic terms a very
> primitive language; it uses a dual number as well as singular and plural,
> and cases where more developed languages (for a reason I'll go into later,
> if you like) use prepositions; also specific tenses where, for the same
> reason, more developed languages use auxiliary verbs.
>
> Of course, we do not have records of any truly primitive languages, as
they
> go back at least to the emergence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens and we have no
> evidence until writing emerges; but the earliest forms of Greek are very
> similar to the other early languages in the same language group, which
> indicates that it had not developed very far from them when the written
> record begins.
About which other languages are you talking about
Voyager
support it.
It is ridiculous to claim that all started at 1788 bc as Agamemnon claims
when we have evidence of a very important civilization in Greece already
from 6000 bc.
Agamemnon is in his.......lost world.
----- Original Message -----
From: Constantinos Catsoulis <gat...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.history.ancient,alt.mythology
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Chronology of Greek Mythology
52sq|O|4Da
>I don't get it my friend! The greeks are more than 30000 years old!
Stay off alt.myth. It rots what little brain you may have.
--
Speaking of the 9-11 atrocity Binjamin Netanyahu said, "It is very good."
-- The Iron Webmaster, 1045
Larry Caldwell
> Human culture is over 50,000 yrs old, depending on whether we define
> "culture" as any indication that man possesses a knowledge of
> spiritual immortality (an "afterlife", or death rituals).
Belief in an afterlife was not so common in the ancient world as you seem
to think. At the beginning of recorded history, most religions were
concerned with maintaining cultural identity and public administration.
For instance, Judaism did not incorporate an afterlife until after the
Alexandrian conquest. It is quite likely that Jesus didn't believe in an
afterlife. He was not on good terms with the Pharisees, who were the
afterlife and resurrection faction in Judaism in the first century.
Greek religion, like Christianity, picked up most of its ideas about the
afterlife from a combination of the Egyptian Osiris cult and the
Zoroastrian heaven/hell.
The oldest tradition of spiritual immortality is ancestor worship,
practiced throughout most of the world. It is a natural outgrowth from
dreaming about the dead. In ancient Greece, as elsewhere, the most
vigorous ghosts were the recently dead - your parents or grandparents.
Older shades faded away and vanished, unless they had done something
worthy of note. The Norse battle cry of "Do you want to live forever?"
is an invitation to die in such an heroic fashion that you would never be
forgotten.
Competing with ancestor worship is reincarnation, also a prehistoric
tradition. Reincarnation grows naturally out of the heritability of
human personality traits. Portions of reincarnation are incorporated in
Greek mystery traditions. Lethe explains why people don't remember
previous lives.
For the vast majority of people at the beginning of recorded history, you
worshipped a god for what the god could do for you. Your tribal or city
god took care of you in exchange for veneration and service to the
temple. Generally the god was not involved in your afterlife.
Using threats against your afterlife is so common in the modern world
that people are surprised to learn that was not always the general
belief.
Larry Caldwell
And the myths were never unified in the first place.
Maat Givveer
A framework to shoot at is better than nothing at all.
--
Everything comes with a price even if it is free.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 944
sarah
> "sarah" <soli...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
> news:<a2aa11$l1r$1...@helle.btinternet.com>...
> > > CHRONOLOGY/TIMELINE
> > >
> > > The Beginning
> > >
> > > The Birth of the World.
> > >
> > > 1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
> >
> > Self-indulgent adolescent crap snipped.
> >
>
> SHEER POPPYCOCK MY DEAR.
>
> The Gods of the Greeks were the tribal memories of their own ancestors and
> the civilisation which flourished under them. They were not imported from
> anywhere. They lived and ruled Greece before the time of the Thera eruption.
Actually, they did _not_. The Dorian Greeks (and both Zeus and Apollo
were known to be Dorian gods) postdate the fall of the Hittite empire.
> Your rant about Hittite this and Anatolian is not going to fool anyone.
Just exactly what am I trying to fool anyone about? Your condescending
bullshit is nothing more than the same lame crap that's been run by
comparative mythologists since before Frazer, Harrison, et al.
> Only
> the first 160 years of my chronology refers to the time of the Gods. There
> is still over 500 years worth of history concerning Mortals that you cannot
> possibly refute by claiming it all came from elsewhere. Why would the Greek
> have invented it all ?
That's my point -- they didn't. Modern "chronologists" did.
> The only rational explanation that fits in with the archaeological evidence
> is that these people lived at the time the Greek myths say they lived.
One more time: the myths _DON'T_ give any specific dates. The dates
have been arrived at in the present, based on somewhat iffy
comparative criteria.
> Nobody could have calculated the dates of the only 3 total solar eclipses
> that were visible over the Aegean during the Heroic Ages at the time when
> Homer was writing. There was no NASA then.
First off, there is no effective definition of the time span covered
by your so-called "Heroic Age".
Second: Homer wrote during the 8th century, and many cultures were
already literate, including Krete, Phoenicia, and Egypt (which had
been literate since the dawn of the first dynasties of the Old
Kingdom). Egypt, in particular, maintained deep interest in the stars
throughout its long history -- astronomical events were routinely
recorded by them, it seems, and any eclipses visible in the eastern
Med would have been recorded, and those records would have been
available for visiting scholars like Homer or other researchers to
study.
Third: early Greek culture was definitely in contact with
representatives of other European religious cultists who used
astronomical data, specifically with the group who used Stonehenge to
track/calculate eclipses. The basic structural elements of Stonehenge
which enabled this calculation/tracking was complete ca. 3000-2500
BCE. Prediction of the event itself was, therefore, possible; the
_visibility_ of such an event in any particular area may not have been
predictable or calculable without an oral tradition that retained
memory of previous visible eclipses in any particular area. Much of
the ancient world's esoteric religious knowledge _was_ retained in
oral tradition _alone_, and would have vanished with the hierarchies
of the religious cults which required such traditional knowledge.
> The only way these events could have been accurately referred to in the
> mythological account is if they were recorded at the time they occurred and
> the records passed down from generation form generation.
The events themselves were recorded, and placed within the context of
the culture which recorded them. In the case of Egyptian astronomical
records, any reference to a date of occurrence would be a reference to
a given king's reign, possibly cross-referenced to external political
events or internal Egyptian events. Unfortunately, the chronology of
Egyptian dynasties (and therefore of Egyptian history overall) has
been distorted by inaccuracies which have accumulated over the
millenia. This means that we cannot date anything reliably in
reference to Egyptian dynastic history.
> The names of virtually all the Greek Gods are recorded in Linear-B
> inscriptions dating from 1250 BC so there is no reason to dismiss the
> accounts of Homer in the Iliad where sacrifices are given and the reasons
> for them. Herakles, Jason and Achilles were all real people.
No, they're not. Only _some_ of the names of the Greek gods are
recorded in Linear B. Furthermore, the chronology of Greek history is
based on Egyptian chronology, so that's fucked by definition (CF:
Peter James et al, CENTURIES OF DARKNESS, with emphasis on the
chapters dealing with Greek and Egyptian chronologies).
> The Greek religion started of as an ancestor cult created by Argus the son
> of Zeus and Niobe
BULLSHIT.
There was no nation/state of Greece at the time, dimwit. There were,
due to the inherent geography of the Greek peninsula, isolated
cities/kingdoms ruled by petty chiefs who were called kings. Usually
they were semi-sanctified by a religious cultus that related the local
monarchy to a religious cultus. Whether this was connected to any
cult of specific ancestors (apart from the rites of the chthonic gods
and heroes) is not stated in our late sources for the various
myths/traditions of the particular areas.
> and by the time of Mycenaean domination in 1450 BC it was
> established as the universal religion of the state
As there was no universal _state_, there was no universal _religion_.
Get a brain.
> and incorporated methods
> of worship imported from Egypt and adapted by the Greeks for their own use.
The first thing you've said that is actually correct: the Egyptians
controlled all African trade, and were well-known as being eminent
astronomers, magicians, healers, scholars, and engineers. Their
temples were immensely rich, and many of their gods were seen as
"aspects" of gods worshipped by other "nationalities" of the time --
Horon/Herakles, Orion/Osiris, Python/Typhon, Isis/Artemis-Selene-Leto,
Thoth/Hermes. This is nothing more than the standard human drive
toward religious syncretism, however, and does not constitute proof
that the Greek religious cults were actually _derived_ from Egyptian
origins. The book BLACK ATHENA discusses much of this confluence of
deities (vol 2).
Actually, the Phaistos disk, which appears to be written in an ancient
form of Greek, indicates that Greeks were in control of large parts of
Krete soon after the fall of the palaces, right after the Thera
catastrophe, which took place in 1637 BCE (For a discussion of this
dating, please see:
http://solitaire_2.tripod.com/chronos.htm).
(cf: GLYPHBREAKER, forgot author's name, which describes the author's
process in translating the disk and identifies its purpose: a call to
arms by a Greek commander to drive off an invasion of Krete by
_Karians_)
Mike Cleven
helleno-bigot troll; don't engage him any further or you'll waste a lot
of time arguing a-historical inanities. And he knows even less about
mythology than he does about history....
MC
sarah
> In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> soli...@earthling.net writes:
>
> > Human culture is over 50,000 yrs old, depending on whether we define
> > "culture" as any indication that man possesses a knowledge of
> > spiritual immortality (an "afterlife", or death rituals).
>
> Belief in an afterlife was not so common in the ancient world as you seem
> to think.
The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
continuance of some type.
The near-universal belief in ghosts and evil magic connected with the
dead
indicates belief in an afterlife. The earliest strata of Greek
religious, as discussed by Harrison, was a conglomeration of chthonic
religious traditions, with propitiatory services. The "Olympian"
cults, with the more celebratory rituals, did not develop until later.
Heroes, ghosts, oracular sites and earth gods preceded Olympian
rites. The first _temples_ did not exist until the 9th century (most
were built in the 8th, in fact). If Zeus and the other Olympian gods
existed in Greece during the late post-Mykenean/early Dorian period,
why were _temples_ not constructed until the 9th/8th centuries?
Because the Olympian cult, with Zeus as its ruler, did not exist in
Greece at that time.
> At the beginning of recorded history, most religions were
> concerned with maintaining cultural identity and public administration.
Religious cults/hierarchies connected with monarchic administrations.
There is no indication that the early chthonic cults of Greece had
_any_ connection with public administration before the agglomeration
of the Greek city-states (such as Athens and Sparta) in the 9th and
8th centuries. The sudden rise of formal temple architecture in those
centuries supports this reading of the evidence; the Mykeneans had NO
temples. The Mykenean trade with the Syrian seaboard and Egypt (which
ended at the end of the reign of Tutankhamen, it appears) should have
familiarized them with temple architecture. However, no temples appear
in Greece prior to the 9th century. Early temples appear to have been
built in "border" sites: between areas controlled by different
peoples/ruling groups, and appear to be a response to political
developments of the time, requiring wealthy rulers to establish a
_formal_ presence in areas and traditions which previously were not
identified with particular deities/cults.
Only wealthy rulers with an entrenched administration could command
the economic resources necessary for such construction. The
establishment of formal temples, religious priesthoods connected with
public administration and military rulers, and the spread of literacy
(and the recording of specific localized traditions regarding the
gods) all speak to the same thing: the Olympian hierarchy and the
tales about Zeus were introduced from _outside_ Greece. Native Greek
cults before that time did not use formal temples.
The economic resurgence of the late 9th/early 8th centuries appears to
be a major factor in this sudden emergence of what I call late Greek
"temple culture". As much of the economic wealth of the time derived
from trade with outlying Greek colonies (in Syria/Palestine, Egypt,
northern Africa, Sicily, the Italian mercantile outlets for trade with
northern Gaul, and Phoenician Iberia), the importation of wealth, a
new system of writing (imported to Greece from the Anatolian seaboard
-- Homer was a native of an island off the coast of Turkey, and the
earliest literature of the so-called "Heroic" age was the Trojan cycle
of the Iliad and the Odyssey, together with the myths of the
Olympians), and the religious cultus of Olympian Zeus all appear to be
connected.
> For instance, Judaism did not incorporate an afterlife until after the
> Alexandrian conquest.
POrtions of the OT date to soon after the Babylonian Captivity, and
indicate a awarenessof the doctrine of reincarnation. I don't know
what that is, _except_ an indication of an afterlife.
> It is quite likely that Jesus didn't believe in an afterlife.
He appears to have responded quite calmly to inquiries about his being
the reincarnation of Elijah. Therefore he seems to have thought it a
reasonable question. If he did not believe in the possibility of an
"afterlife", why would he be so reasonable about such a question?
>He was not on good terms with the Pharisees, who were the
> afterlife and resurrection faction in Judaism in the first century.
I'd suggest you do a bit more reading on the subject, because the
exact opposite appears to have been the case. CF: Eisenman's JAMES:
THE BROTHER OF JESUS, which discusses the various groups in Palestine
at the time of the Roman occupation.
> Greek religion, like Christianity, picked up most of its ideas about the
> afterlife from a combination of the Egyptian Osiris cult and the
> Zoroastrian heaven/hell.
Early Greek chthonic cultus was a religion of ghosts, heroes, and
spirits of various types, among them nature spirits and more powerful
local deities of earth and water. The worship of local earth
gods/oracular spirits did not derive from Egypt (cf: Graves on
Trophonius & Delphi). Persian Zoroastrian themes did not intrude until
after the 6th century BCE. Zeus and the Dorian-dominated Olympian
temple religious cults did not appear until the 9th century.
> The oldest tradition of spiritual immortality is ancestor worship,
> practiced throughout most of the world. It is a natural outgrowth from
> dreaming about the dead.
Quite true, but tying a _specific_ ancestor to a SPECIFIC historical
timeline is pure _BULLSHIT_.
> In ancient Greece, as elsewhere, the most
> vigorous ghosts were the recently dead - your parents or grandparents.
> Older shades faded away and vanished, unless they had done something
> worthy of note. The Norse battle cry of "Do you want to live forever?"
> is an invitation to die in such an heroic fashion that you would never be
> forgotten.
Being the granddaughter of a guy named Ingvald Olaf, and having read a
number of the early Norse sagas, as well as a number of books on
Vikings, early Norse settlements in Europe and America, and Norse
myth, I strongly suspect you got that battle cry from a movie.
Also: bear in mind that the sagas were written down by monks, many of
whom were dedicated to the service of the church by their families
(and were therefore more or less unhappy with their lack of
opportunity to do anything _else_) and may have considered the Norse
raiders to be overwhelmingly romantic and thrilling (in the same way
modern slice-and-dice movies are a great thrill to young men).
Scriptorium monk/copyists were necessarily _young_ men: by early
middle age, the eyesight (particularly when consistently strained by
poor light and overwork) starts deteriorating. This increases the
testosterone-dominant focus of the works which have survived.
You know, if nobody on one side or the other survived a particular
battle, the warrior and his final performance would be completely
forgotten _anyway_, and his final words (including any such stirring
battle cry). I have a sneaking suspicion that most guys just wanted
to live long enough to see their children grow up, much like modern
folks. The Norse were more of a _trading_ culture than a _battle_
culture, in point of fact, and Scandinavians are eminently _practical_
people in general (which is why an area of Frankland later became
known as _Normandy_, and Norman feudal administration was used as an
example by most of Europe).
Agamemnon
"Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3C4B1E87...@bigfoot.com...
> Advisory to all innocent posters in this thread: Agamemnon is a
> helleno-bigot troll; don't engage him any further or you'll waste a lot
> of time arguing a-historical inanities. And he knows even less about
> mythology than he does about history....
You have already been proven to be an anti-Hellenic Racist Bigot by you
support of Ottoman and Turkish Genocides against Greeks. This reply is in
keeping with your hatred of Greeks and ignorance of Hellenic history and
culture..
>
> MC
Agamemnon
"sarah" <soli...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com...
> "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:<a2e0ol$lkt$1...@paris.btinternet.com>...
> > "sarah" <soli...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> > news:a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
> > news:<a2aa11$l1r$1...@helle.btinternet.com>...
> > > > CHRONOLOGY/TIMELINE
> > > >
> > > > The Beginning
> > > >
> > > > The Birth of the World.
> > > >
> > > > 1788 BC Chaos gives birth of Gia (Mother Earth)
> > >
> > > Self-indulgent adolescent crap snipped.
> > >
> >
> > SHEER POPPYCOCK MY DEAR.
> >
> > The Gods of the Greeks were the tribal memories of their own ancestors
and
> > the civilisation which flourished under them. They were not imported
from
> > anywhere. They lived and ruled Greece before the time of the Thera
eruption.
>
> Actually, they did _not_. The Dorian Greeks (and both Zeus and Apollo
> were known to be Dorian gods) postdate the fall of the Hittite empire.
HOGWASH. The names of the Greek Gods are recorded in Linear-B inscriptions
dating to 1250 BC. If you add another 100 years to that to give time enough
for the religion to develop and be adopted by the sate that means that the
Gods lived prior to 1350 BC at the latest. Long before the fall of the
Hittites in 1100 BC.
>
> > Your rant about Hittite this and Anatolian is not going to fool anyone.
>
> Just exactly what am I trying to fool anyone about? Your condescending
> bullshit is nothing more than the same lame crap that's been run by
> comparative mythologists since before Frazer, Harrison, et al.
Foolish person. I am not trying to invent a pagan religion like Frazer. I
consider the Heros and Gods of Greek Mythology to have been REAL people that
lived in Mycenaean times.
>
> > Only
> > the first 160 years of my chronology refers to the time of the Gods.
There
> > is still over 500 years worth of history concerning Mortals that you
cannot
> > possibly refute by claiming it all came from elsewhere. Why would the
Greek
> > have invented it all ?
>
> That's my point -- they didn't. Modern "chronologists" did.
POPPYCOCK.
Apollodorus had a firm chronology established in 263 BC and even Herodotus
writing in 440 BC dated the Illiad to 1200 BC and Herakles to about 1300.
>
> > The only rational explanation that fits in with the archaeological
evidence
> > is that these people lived at the time the Greek myths say they lived.
>
> One more time: the myths _DON'T_ give any specific dates. The dates
> have been arrived at in the present, based on somewhat iffy
> comparative criteria.
RUBBISH.
The numbers of years of Herakles labours and campaigns is given by the
Ancients. The age of his wife is given and so is the ages of his son Hyllus.
Homer gives the duration of the Trojan Way and the Oddesy and 10 years each.
Thucydides gives the time from the end of Trojan war to the victory of the
Heraklids. All you have to do is add the figures up and give the heroes
reasonable life spans ~75 years and their mothers reasonable ages of
conception between the age of 17-40 years to set the upper limit and you can
calculate the reigns of all the kings to with +/-5 years. The fact that
kings were having kids with their nieces sets the lower limit for the
conceptions of Herakles and Aeason among others. Herakes cannot have been
conceived any earlier than 52 years after the birth of his grandfather
since Electron married Alcius daughter by whom was born Alcmene.
>
> > Nobody could have calculated the dates of the only 3 total solar
eclipses
> > that were visible over the Aegean during the Heroic Ages at the time
when
> > Homer was writing. There was no NASA then.
>
> First off, there is no effective definition of the time span covered
> by your so-called "Heroic Age".
YES THER IS. It cant have been before 1628 BC since there is no mention of
the Thera Eruption in any Heroic context and it cant have been later than
1100 BC since Tiglath-Pilerser conquest of Asia-Minor is not referred to or
even hinted at until the Heraklids.
>
> Second: Homer wrote during the 8th century, and many cultures were
> already literate, including Krete, Phoenicia, and Egypt (which had
> been literate since the dawn of the first dynasties of the Old
> Kingdom). Egypt, in particular, maintained deep interest in the stars
> throughout its long history -- astronomical events were routinely
> recorded by them, it seems, and any eclipses visible in the eastern
> Med would have been recorded, and those records would have been
> available for visiting scholars like Homer or other researchers to
> study.
So the Egyptians established observatories in Greece just to wait for
Eclipsed. DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH. The eclipse over Greece were recorded then it
was by the Greeks themselves and if they can record eclipsed then they can
record the legends of their heroes as they occurred.
>
> Third: early Greek culture was definitely in contact with
> representatives of other European religious cultists who used
> astronomical data, specifically with the group who used Stonehenge to
> track/calculate eclipses. The basic structural elements of Stonehenge
> which enabled this calculation/tracking was complete ca. 3000-2500
> BCE. Prediction of the event itself was, therefore, possible; the
YOU ARE INSANE. Stonehenge was most defiantly NOT used to track or calculate
eclipses.
> _visibility_ of such an event in any particular area may not have been
> predictable or calculable without an oral tradition that retained
> memory of previous visible eclipses in any particular area. Much of
TOTAL POPPYCOCK. The earth is on a tilted orbit and the plane of moons orbit
oscillates in a chaotic manner. YOU CANNOT predict solar eclipses by looking
at tables of past events. You need a fundamental knowledge of physics to do
this and you MUST know that the earth is a globe and that it orbits the sun.
> the ancient world's esoteric religious knowledge _was_ retained in
> oral tradition _alone_, and would have vanished with the hierarchies
> of the religious cults which required such traditional knowledge.
CRAP. The Babylonians had a Mathematical method for calculating eclipsed and
this was written down on clay. The method had NOTING to do with religion or
Stonehenge.
>
> > The only way these events could have been accurately referred to in the
> > mythological account is if they were recorded at the time they occurred
and
> > the records passed down from generation form generation.
>
> The events themselves were recorded, and placed within the context of
> the culture which recorded them. In the case of Egyptian astronomical
> records, any reference to a date of occurrence would be a reference to
> a given king's reign, possibly cross-referenced to external political
> events or internal Egyptian events. Unfortunately, the chronology of
> Egyptian dynasties (and therefore of Egyptian history overall) has
> been distorted by inaccuracies which have accumulated over the
> millenia. This means that we cannot date anything reliably in
> reference to Egyptian dynastic history.
COMPLETE RUBBISH. It is the eclipses that made it possible to fix the reigns
of the Egyptian kings and prove that the ancient chronologies were correct.
>
> > The names of virtually all the Greek Gods are recorded in Linear-B
> > inscriptions dating from 1250 BC so there is no reason to dismiss the
> > accounts of Homer in the Iliad where sacrifices are given and the
reasons
> > for them. Herakles, Jason and Achilles were all real people.
>
> No, they're not. Only _some_ of the names of the Greek gods are
80% of the Olympian gods are named.
> recorded in Linear B. Furthermore, the chronology of Greek history is
> based on Egyptian chronology, so that's fucked by definition (CF:
> Peter James et al, CENTURIES OF DARKNESS, with emphasis on the
> chapters dealing with Greek and Egyptian chronologies).
BOLLOX.
>
> > The Greek religion started of as an ancestor cult created by Argus the
son
> > of Zeus and Niobe
>
>
> BULLSHIT.
>
> There was no nation/state of Greece at the time, dimwit. There were,
> due to the inherent geography of the Greek peninsula, isolated
> cities/kingdoms ruled by petty chiefs who were called kings. Usually
> they were semi-sanctified by a religious cultus that related the local
> monarchy to a religious cultus. Whether this was connected to any
> cult of specific ancestors (apart from the rites of the chthonic gods
> and heroes) is not stated in our late sources for the various
> myths/traditions of the particular areas.
CRETIN. What do you think a Wanax was ?
Linear-B references prove that virtually ALL of Greece was ruled by ONE
state, the state of Mycenae and its High King just like the Myths tell it !
>
>
> > and by the time of Mycenaean domination in 1450 BC it was
> > established as the universal religion of the state
>
> As there was no universal _state_, there was no universal _religion_.
> Get a brain.
CRAP.
Linear-B references prove there was.
>
> > and incorporated methods
> > of worship imported from Egypt and adapted by the Greeks for their own
use.
>
> The first thing you've said that is actually correct: the Egyptians
> controlled all African trade, and were well-known as being eminent
> astronomers, magicians, healers, scholars, and engineers. Their
> temples were immensely rich, and many of their gods were seen as
> "aspects" of gods worshipped by other "nationalities" of the time --
> Horon/Herakles, Orion/Osiris, Python/Typhon, Isis/Artemis-Selene-Leto,
> Thoth/Hermes. This is nothing more than the standard human drive
> toward religious syncretism, however, and does not constitute proof
> that the Greek religious cults were actually _derived_ from Egyptian
> origins. The book BLACK ATHENA discusses much of this confluence of
> deities (vol 2).
HA HA HA.... you have totally discredited your self. BLACK ATHENA.... LOL...
LOL... LOL....
>
> Actually, the Phaistos disk, which appears to be written in an ancient
> form of Greek, indicates that Greeks were in control of large parts of
> Krete soon after the fall of the palaces, right after the Thera
> catastrophe, which took place in 1637 BCE (For a discussion of this
> dating, please see:
> http://solitaire_2.tripod.com/chronos.htm).
Thera took place in 1628. The Phaistos disk mentions the city of Argos and
it was a precisely this time that the city was founded according to Greek
Mythology.
Sollers
cross-bearing)
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> wrote in message
news:10115231...@athprx02.forthnet.gr...
Larry Caldwell
> The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
> fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
> continuance of some type.
Maybe, and not commonly. Mostly Neandertal burial consisted of dumping
the body somewhere far from camp where it wouldn't attract predators.
The ochre site is uncertain, and may have been the action of rodents.
> The near-universal belief in ghosts and evil magic connected with the
> dead
> indicates belief in an afterlife. The earliest strata of Greek
> religious, as discussed by Harrison, was a conglomeration of chthonic
> religious traditions, with propitiatory services. The "Olympian"
> cults, with the more celebratory rituals, did not develop until later.
> Heroes, ghosts, oracular sites and earth gods preceded Olympian
> rites. The first _temples_ did not exist until the 9th century (most
> were built in the 8th, in fact). If Zeus and the other Olympian gods
> existed in Greece during the late post-Mykenean/early Dorian period,
> why were _temples_ not constructed until the 9th/8th centuries?
> Because the Olympian cult, with Zeus as its ruler, did not exist in
> Greece at that time.
Your timeline astonishes me. The Delian games were in full swing by the
9th century, and the temples of Apollo and Athena Pronaos had already
been constructed at Delphi.
Perhaps you are thinking of stone temples. Greek temple architecture
reflects an earlier phase of temple building that used wood for a
building material. Column capitals are stone copies of the traditional
wood transfer blocks, and the columns themselves were stylized tree
trunks. While none of the wood temples survive, it is certain that they
existed.
> Religious cults/hierarchies connected with monarchic administrations.
> There is no indication that the early chthonic cults of Greece had
> _any_ connection with public administration before the agglomeration
> of the Greek city-states (such as Athens and Sparta) in the 9th and
> 8th centuries. The sudden rise of formal temple architecture in those
> centuries supports this reading of the evidence; the Mykeneans had NO
> temples. The Mykenean trade with the Syrian seaboard and Egypt (which
> ended at the end of the reign of Tutankhamen, it appears) should have
> familiarized them with temple architecture. However, no temples appear
> in Greece prior to the 9th century. Early temples appear to have been
> built in "border" sites: between areas controlled by different
> peoples/ruling groups, and appear to be a response to political
> developments of the time, requiring wealthy rulers to establish a
> _formal_ presence in areas and traditions which previously were not
> identified with particular deities/cults.
Which cthonic cults are you talking about? The ones I am familiar with -
Orpheus, Demeter/Persephone/Adonis and Dionysus are imports from Asia
Minor, and fairly late at that. It is interesting that you would mention
Mycenae, since early graves there were simple shaft graves with little or
no adornment. There is no indication that an afterlife played any major
role in their mythology. The absence of a temple is indeterminate, since
the whole site has been rebuilt so many times only a small fraction of it
still exists.
> Only wealthy rulers with an entrenched administration could command
> the economic resources necessary for such construction. The
> establishment of formal temples, religious priesthoods connected with
> public administration and military rulers, and the spread of literacy
> (and the recording of specific localized traditions regarding the
> gods) all speak to the same thing: the Olympian hierarchy and the
> tales about Zeus were introduced from _outside_ Greece. Native Greek
> cults before that time did not use formal temples.
Let's clarify what Greece is. If you mean the geographic locale,
certainly the Greeks brought their mythology with them. The pantheon of
the Greeks has many similarities to the pantheon of many other early
bronze age invaders. While they were on the move, temples were not
practical. As soon as they settled in an area, temples started going up.
You seem to think that temples have to be designed by Phidias and be
magnificent to serve their purpose. The first temples were simple wood
god houses, but every bit as effective as a cult center as the later
productions. If you are looking for a Parthenon, of course you won't
find one before the Golden Age. You are looking for the wrong thing.
[...]
> > It is quite likely that Jesus didn't believe in an afterlife.
> He appears to have responded quite calmly to inquiries about his being
> the reincarnation of Elijah. Therefore he seems to have thought it a
> reasonable question. If he did not believe in the possibility of an
> "afterlife", why would he be so reasonable about such a question?
The gospels are Greek documents, and probably don't accurately reflect
Jesus' religious beliefs.
sarah
> helleno-bigot troll; don't engage him any further or you'll waste a lot
> of time arguing a-historical inanities. And he knows even less about
> mythology than he does about history....
>
> MC
I think I noticed that.
WolfWolf
Sarah, Agamemnon, made up a phantastic story about mtDNA in order to
demonstrate that mankind developed from the ancient Greek Ursula - who was
Greek, spoke Greek and showed Greek civilization to all descendants -
worldwide.
Where Agamemnon failed was in his DNA lab - no polymorphic markers, no
microsatellite mutations, and no hypervariable sites.
Furthermore, his test subjects (who are still waiting to get paid) did not
receive juice and biscuits after the test.
We have learnt from Agamemnon that Greek language was even brought to the
American continent - from Alaska down to Fireland.
Next we will learn that God is Greek, that the first man (Adam) was Greek -
and Eva too.
Of course we will learn how the primitive Ainu in Japan learnt Greek, and
also the Australian aborigines - and the mysteries of the statues on Eastern
Islands will be unveiled.
Antarctic penguins are degenerated derivatives of Greek.
Everybody is Greek - you and me included.
WolfosWolfos
Odysseus
>
> The _planet_ is over 4 million years old.
>
orders of magnitude. The planet's estimated age is 4.5 *billion* years;
the earliest evidence of life (stromatolites IIRC, or fossil algae)
dates from over 3 billion years ago. By 4 million years ago there were
already hominid apes like _Australopithecus_; this was the Pliocene,
only the second most recent epoch out of the 25 or so recognized by geologists.
--Odysseus
Mike Cleven
I thought Penguins were Macedonians......
MC
roge
roge
> Advisory to all innocent posters in this thread: Agamemnon is a
> helleno-bigot troll; don't engage him any further or you'll waste a lot
> of time arguing a-historical inanities. And he knows even less about
> mythology than he does about history....
>
> MC
vasif@fisav
Keep it up Larry. Very interesting.
--
vasif@fisav
*********
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16b6171dd...@news.earthlink.net...
Mike Cleven
roge wrote:
>
> "Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C4B1E87...@bigfoot.com...
> > Advisory to all innocent posters in this thread: Agamemnon is a
> > helleno-bigot troll; don't engage him any further or you'll waste a lot
> > of time arguing a-historical inanities. And he knows even less about
> > mythology than he does about history....
> >
> > MC
> Shit stirring
Roge => another one of Agamemnon's killfile-avoiding usernames....
MC
Gale
><snip>
>
> I thought Penguins were Macedonians......
Englishmen, most likely --- see Anatole France's _Penguin Island_.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, Tarot at
http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html
modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Joe Jefferson
>
> <snip>
> The gospels are Greek documents, and probably don't accurately reflect
> Jesus' religious beliefs.
Of course it's impossible to say for sure how accurately the Gospels
portray Jesus' beliefs, as there is no other sources to compare them
with. Neverthless, they do portray what the church named for him
believed at a time when there were still a few people alive who had
actually met him.
--
Joe of Castle Jefferson
http://www.mindspring.com/~jjstrshp/
Site updated November 25th, 2001.
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the
hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:3-4.
Mike Cleven
Joe Jefferson wrote:
>
> Larry Caldwell wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > The gospels are Greek documents, and probably don't accurately reflect
> > Jesus' religious beliefs.
>
> Of course it's impossible to say for sure how accurately the Gospels
> portray Jesus' beliefs, as there is no other sources to compare them
> with. Neverthless, they do portray what the church named for him
> believed at a time when there were still a few people alive who had
> actually met him.
If St. Paul's to be believed, that is; which IMHO he's not....
MC
Neville Lindsay
Not only did Paul not meet him, he doesn't quote him, tell any of the
stories about him, and claims to have got his information 'from no man' but
by divine revelation.
And the gospels are so late as to be unlikely recipients of direct
information from adults contemporary with gospel events. And of course, the
gospels also know virtually nothing about his life, and contradict each
other on such things a birth, genealogy, who the disciples were etc.
Papias said that there were plenty of writings around but he didn't trust
them.
NL
o8TY
About the singular and plural of language, I read in Homer of flashing-eyed
Athene and wonder whether she had one eye, or two or three. As the daughter
of the Kuklope Bronte she may have inherited the one eye of her father, just
as at her birth she springs from Zeus's head carrying a large shield
(Bronte's or Zeus's) which could be considered metaphorically a large round
eye with the flash of metal.
Care to opinionate.
--
o8TY
"Sollers" <sol...@pemmaddison.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a2e2lt$me2$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of language development.
> Greek, particularly the earlier forms, is in linguistic terms a very
> primitive language; it uses a dual number as well as singular and plural,
> and cases where more developed languages (for a reason I'll go into later,
> if you like) use prepositions; also specific tenses where, for the same
> reason, more developed languages use auxiliary verbs.
>
> Of course, we do not have records of any truly primitive languages, as
they
> go back at least to the emergence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens and we have no
> evidence until writing emerges; but the earliest forms of Greek are very
> similar to the other early languages in the same language group, which
> indicates that it had not developed very far from them when the written
> record begins.
o8TY
architecture -
i. There is no evidence that the Doric temples were derived from timber
origins. This theory seems to have sprung from Vitruvius and perpetuated by
modern scholars but is without direct support despite your attempted
parallels. To cut a long story short, the design of the Greek temple was the
very image of their deity, by whatever name or fashion this diety was
perpetuated. This is why the temple styles were able to remain in vogue for
so many hundreds of years.
ii. As you correctly pointed out the Mykenaians also had temples, but
their form has alluded many since most consider the tholoi were grand tombs
rather than places to worship chthonic gods.
A full explanation of this theory, plus more, will hopefully reach
publication before 2004.
--
o8TY
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16b6171dd...@news.earthlink.net...
Angelos Karageorgiou
> Well interjected, however, I disagree with a few points conerning the
> architecture -
> i. There is no evidence that the Doric temples were derived from timber
> origins. This theory seems to have sprung from Vitruvius and perpetuated by
> modern scholars but is without direct support despite your attempted
> parallels. To cut a long story short, the design of the Greek temple was the
> very image of their deity, by whatever name or fashion this diety was
> perpetuated. This is why the temple styles were able to remain in vogue for
> so many hundreds of years.
Actually modern orthodox wood carvings are a direct descendant of ancient
marble decorative scultping.
If one of youse remote people visits a byzantine museum you will clearly
see the ancient, middle ages and modern decorative themes as they
go through history and changes.
The archaic grape theme reappears as a christianic decorative theme.
But more can be said from people who have oggled history , not studied
pictures by 3rd hand.
Larry Caldwell
> "Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C4DC4E1...@bigfoot.com...
> > Joe Jefferson wrote:
> > > Larry Caldwell wrote:
> > > > The gospels are Greek documents, and probably don't accurately reflect
> > > > Jesus' religious beliefs.
> > > Of course it's impossible to say for sure how accurately the Gospels
> > > portray Jesus' beliefs, as there is no other sources to compare them
> > > with. Neverthless, they do portray what the church named for him
> > > believed at a time when there were still a few people alive who had
> > > actually met him.
> > If St. Paul's to be believed, that is; which IMHO he's not....
> Not only did Paul not meet him, he doesn't quote him, tell any of the
> stories about him, and claims to have got his information 'from no man' but
> by divine revelation.
> And the gospels are so late as to be unlikely recipients of direct
> information from adults contemporary with gospel events. And of course, the
> gospels also know virtually nothing about his life, and contradict each
> other on such things a birth, genealogy, who the disciples were etc.
> Papias said that there were plenty of writings around but he didn't trust
> them.
And since the Gospels were all written in Greek, it is likely that they
were written by Paul's followers and reflected Paul's theology. Since
there was no more Judaea by the time the Gospels were written, there were
not many factual limits.
It is interesting that even the Nag Hamadi fragments are written in
Greek.
sarah
> In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> soli...@earthling.net writes:
>
> > The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
> > fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
> > continuance of some type.
>
> Maybe, and not commonly. Mostly Neandertal burial consisted of dumping
> the body somewhere far from camp where it wouldn't attract predators.
> The ochre site is uncertain, and may have been the action of rodents.
It would be really nice if you actually _learned_ something about the
subject before running your mouth, kid.
Bodies _dumped_ without any ritual accoutrements or preparation have
never been found, to my knowledge. Those bodies found have been
carefully prepared for burial, and red ochre is not a common dietary
component for rats, who would have no reason to sprinkle dead human
bodies with it.
> Your timeline astonishes me. The Delian games were in full swing by the
> 9th century, and the temples of Apollo and Athena Pronaos had already
> been constructed at Delphi.
The earliest known "games" are those of Olympia, and according to
Greek tradition, they were instituted by Herakles to commemorate the
truce between the cities of Elis and Pylos in the early-to-mid 8th
century.
> Perhaps you are thinking of stone temples.
The earliest known _temple_, PERIOD, was a temple of Apollo, built in
the 9th century.
> > Religious cults/hierarchies connected with monarchic administrations.
> > There is no indication that the early chthonic cults of Greece had
> > _any_ connection with public administration before the agglomeration
> > of the Greek city-states (such as Athens and Sparta) in the 9th and
> > 8th centuries. The sudden rise of formal temple architecture in those
> > centuries supports this reading of the evidence; the Mykeneans had NO
> > temples. The Mykenean trade with the Syrian seaboard and Egypt (which
> > ended at the end of the reign of Tutankhamen, it appears) should have
> > familiarized them with temple architecture. However, no temples appear
> > in Greece prior to the 9th century. Early temples appear to have been
> > built in "border" sites: between areas controlled by different
> > peoples/ruling groups, and appear to be a response to political
> > developments of the time, requiring wealthy rulers to establish a
> > _formal_ presence in areas and traditions which previously were not
> > identified with particular deities/cults.
>
> Which cthonic cults are you talking about? The ones I am familiar with -
> Orpheus, Demeter/Persephone/Adonis and Dionysus are imports from Asia
> Minor, and fairly late at that. It is interesting that you would mention
> Mycenae, since early graves there were simple shaft graves with little or
> no adornment. There is no indication that an afterlife played any major
> role in their mythology.
Never said it did, asshole. Learn to read.
> The absence of a temple is indeterminate, since
> the whole site has been rebuilt so many times only a small fraction of it
> still exists.
You haven't read any of the books on the digs, have you? There was one
ritual site in the entire place, a small space away from the
"official" buildings.
> > Only wealthy rulers with an entrenched administration could command
> > the economic resources necessary for such construction. The
> > establishment of formal temples, religious priesthoods connected with
> > public administration and military rulers, and the spread of literacy
> > (and the recording of specific localized traditions regarding the
> > gods) all speak to the same thing: the Olympian hierarchy and the
> > tales about Zeus were introduced from _outside_ Greece. Native Greek
> > cults before that time did not use formal temples.
>
> Let's clarify what Greece is
Let's not, since you don't know shit about it anyway.
sarah
LOL! Evidently, the Essenes and James' Jerusalem Church called him _the Liar_.
sarah
> Well interjected, however, I disagree with a few points conerning the
> architecture -
>
> i. There is no evidence that the Doric temples were derived from timber
> origins. This theory seems to have sprung from Vitruvius and perpetuated by
> modern scholars but is without direct support despite your attempted
> parallels. To cut a long story short, the design of the Greek temple was the
> very image of their deity
Bullshit. Gabled roofs with columns aren't an image of _any_ deity.
The design is based on that of the royal Mykenean hall type, the
megaron, which is based on wooden architecture of the northern
Balkans, designed to shed snow/ice from the roofs.
> ii. As you correctly pointed out the Mykenaians also had temples, but
> their form has alluded many since most consider the tholoi were grand tombs
> rather than places to worship chthonic gods.
Bullshit again. The tholoi _were_ tombs, human remains were found in
them. They were _not_ temples. The chthonic cults which preceded the
Olympian rites used trenches, not altars. Read Harrison before you run
your mouth again.
sarah
> sarah wrote:
> >
> > The _planet_ is over 4 million years old.
> >
> While that is certainly true, it's an understatement by about three
> orders of magnitude. The planet's estimated age is 4.5 *billion* years;
True, sorry. Brain glitch: million/billion -- fingers didn't hit the right key.
Iain Parkinson
> From: Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com>
> Organization: QLRI, Inc.
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.history.ancient,alt.mythology
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:52:45 GMT
> Subject: Re: Chronology of Greek Mythology
>
> In article <giu38.2601$Ni2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> nev...@bigpond.net.au writes:
>> "Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:3C4DC4E1...@bigfoot.com...
>>> Joe Jefferson wrote:
>>>> Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
>>>>> The gospels are Greek documents, and probably don't accurately reflect
>>>>> Jesus' religious beliefs.
>
>>>> Of course it's impossible to say for sure how accurately the Gospels
>>>> portray Jesus' beliefs, as there is no other sources to compare them
>>>> with. Neverthless, they do portray what the church named for him
>>>> believed at a time when there were still a few people alive who had
>>>> actually met him.
>
>>> If St. Paul's to be believed, that is; which IMHO he's not....
>
>> Not only did Paul not meet him, he doesn't quote him, tell any of the
>> stories about him, and claims to have got his information 'from no man' but
>> by divine revelation.
>> And the gospels are so late as to be unlikely recipients of direct
>> information from adults contemporary with gospel events. And of course, the
>> gospels also know virtually nothing about his life, and contradict each
>> other on such things a birth, genealogy, who the disciples were etc.
>> Papias said that there were plenty of writings around but he didn't trust
>> them.
And when you look at the non-canonical Gospels you can see what he meant.
Sabbath breaking clay birds flying away? Women saved by becoming men? The
canonical Gospels are models of restraint compared to a lot of the
competition.
> And since the Gospels were all written in Greek, it is likely that they
> were written by Paul's followers and reflected Paul's theology. Since
> there was no more Judaea by the time the Gospels were written, there were
> not many factual limits.
Well - the funny thing about the gospels is that they don't in any simple
way reflect Pauline theology - that's why most folk who want to attack Paul
say he distorted Jesus's teaching. I don't happen to agree with that
position but it is not without foundation.
But as you say Paul is our earliest source for beliefs about Jesus.
That is not to say however that the Gospels do not contain material that is
much earlier than their final recension.
That they are written in Greek implies nothing about the theology of the
writers or association with Paul. Greek was the international language of
the countries around the Med. and had been for centuries. Most people in
'Galilee of the nations' would have known a bit of Greek as well as the
Aramaic you would expect.
To be sure the Gospels are almost certainly written a decade or two after
the fall of Jerusalem (but see JAT Robinson 'Redating the New Testament'
(1976) for a non-fundamentalist case for a remarkably early dating) but that
doesn't preclude there being decently sourced material in them.
It certainly isn't the case that there was 'no Judaea'. Maybe you could say
that after 125 and the failure of Simeon bar Kochba, the last great
messianic pretender, but the Romans certainly did not wipe out or deport the
entire population in the Flavian period. Remember Javneh (jamnia)?
> It is interesting that even the Nag Hamadi fragments are written in
> Greek.
Everyone wrote in Greek including Philo and Josephus.
Iain
Mike Cleven
Even more blatantly, the image of the seated Christ Pantocrator is a
direct copy of the attitude of Olympian Zeus; supplantation of older
beliefs and symbols with a Christian face is the hallmark of what is a
largely plagiarized religion.....
MC
Mike Cleven
sarah wrote:
>
> Odysseus <odysse...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<3C4CB8CE...@yahoo.ca>...
> > sarah wrote:
> > >
> > > The _planet_ is over 4 million years old.
> > >
> > While that is certainly true, it's an understatement by about three
> > orders of magnitude. The planet's estimated age is 4.5 *billion* years;
>
> True, sorry. Brain glitch: million/billion -- fingers didn't hit the right key.
"What's a zillion?" (inflation of an old saw).
MC
Larry Caldwell
soli...@earthling.net writes:
> Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b6171dd...@news.earthlink.net>...
> > In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> > soli...@earthling.net writes:
> >
> > > The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
> > > fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
> > > continuance of some type.
> >
> > Maybe, and not commonly. Mostly Neandertal burial consisted of dumping
> > the body somewhere far from camp where it wouldn't attract predators.
> > The ochre site is uncertain, and may have been the action of rodents.
>
> It would be really nice if you actually _learned_ something about the
> subject before running your mouth, kid.
So some senile old bat like you can run at the other end? Things have
changed a lot since the 1900's, granny.
> Bodies _dumped_ without any ritual accoutrements or preparation have
> never been found, to my knowledge. Those bodies found have been
> carefully prepared for burial, and red ochre is not a common dietary
> component for rats, who would have no reason to sprinkle dead human
> bodies with it.
Wrong. There is ONE possible ochre burial site. Most sites show no
burial preparation at all.
> > Your timeline astonishes me. The Delian games were in full swing by the
> > 9th century, and the temples of Apollo and Athena Pronaos had already
> > been constructed at Delphi.
>
> The earliest known "games" are those of Olympia, and according to
> Greek tradition, they were instituted by Herakles to commemorate the
> truce between the cities of Elis and Pylos in the early-to-mid 8th
> century.
Wrong again. The first games were the Delian games at Delphi, which
predate the Olympic games by centuries. They were originally held every
8 years, but were changed to every 4 years when the Olympiad was
instituted.
> > Perhaps you are thinking of stone temples.
>
> The earliest known _temple_, PERIOD, was a temple of Apollo, built in
> the 9th century.
There was a temple at Delphi as early as 1500 bce. (16th century)
> > Which cthonic cults are you talking about? The ones I am familiar with -
> > Orpheus, Demeter/Persephone/Adonis and Dionysus are imports from Asia
> > Minor, and fairly late at that. It is interesting that you would mention
> > Mycenae, since early graves there were simple shaft graves with little or
> > no adornment. There is no indication that an afterlife played any major
> > role in their mythology.
> Never said it did, asshole. Learn to read.
Then what the hell was that diatribe about all those mystery cults about?
> > The absence of a temple is indeterminate, since
> > the whole site has been rebuilt so many times only a small fraction of it
> > still exists.
> You haven't read any of the books on the digs, have you? There was one
> ritual site in the entire place, a small space away from the
> "official" buildings.
Interesting, since the archaeological record has been destroyed. You are
confusing what they found with what existed.
> > Let's clarify what Greece is
> Let's not, since you don't know shit about it anyway.
I don't know why I bother with a snotty bitch like you.
Everybody is born ignorant, but you had to work at getting that stupid.
Angelos Karageorgiou
> Even more blatantly, the image of the seated Christ Pantocrator is a
> direct copy of the attitude of Olympian Zeus; supplantation of older
> beliefs and symbols with a Christian face is the hallmark of what is a
> largely plagiarized religion.....
uh mikey mikey, you don't likey them greeks, don't lick them boots by dropping
in in every little conversation and leaving your piss behind.
We know you exist, no need to smell the place up.
--
Angelos Karageorgiou CTO IQS SA
Mike Cleven
Angelos Karageorgiou wrote:
>
> In soc.culture.greek Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > Even more blatantly, the image of the seated Christ Pantocrator is a
> > direct copy of the attitude of Olympian Zeus; supplantation of older
> > beliefs and symbols with a Christian face is the hallmark of what is a
> > largely plagiarized religion.....
>
> uh mikey mikey, you don't likey them greeks, don't lick them boots by dropping
> in in every little conversation and leaving your piss behind.
YOu're pissing in the wind, Karadzordzevic; the deliberate copying of
the image of Zeus by icon-makers is a well-known feature of Christian
art history. If you don't know that, then you're even more uneducated
than you've already shown yourself to be.
>
> We know you exist, no need to smell the place up.
Speak for yourself.
> --
> Angelos Karageorgiou CTO IQS SA
Karadzodzevic-spawn.
MC
Nevzat Akdemir
Hey Karajorj, Mikey is giving you hard time eh?
Look no worry, shit happens.
"This is Usenet, nobody knows you're a dog."
Mike Cleven
Don't insult dogs, Nevzat....
MC
Neville Lindsay
I'm not sure why you would say that the gospel writers were Paul's
followers - he was dead and gone before then, and there is nothing much to
suggest that they were his followers or that they knew anything about him.
And the gospels are at variance not only with each other but also with
Paul's letters. He is dealing with a spiritual being, they with an earthly
one turned god, perhaps.
> It is interesting that even the Nag Hamadi fragments are written in
> Greek.
Well, the authors were Greek or at least Hellenised, and writing for a Greek
audience. None of the gospels is written for the Jerusalem/Galilean
churches. We don't have any evidence for the gospels we have received being
in any other language until a few centuries later.
NL
o8TY
--
o8TY
"sarah" <soli...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:a01cf0c5.0201...@posting.google.com...
> "o8TY" <ob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:<cZy38.8030$N31.3...@ozemail.com.au>...
> > Well interjected, however, I disagree with a few points conerning the
> > architecture -
> >
> > i. There is no evidence that the Doric temples were derived from
timber
> > origins. This theory seems to have sprung from Vitruvius and perpetuated
by
> > modern scholars but is without direct support despite your attempted
> > parallels. To cut a long story short, the design of the Greek temple was
the
> > very image of their deity
>
> Bullshit. Gabled roofs with columns aren't an image of _any_ deity.
> The design is based on that of the royal Mykenean hall type, the
> megaron, which is based on wooden architecture of the northern
> Balkans, designed to shed snow/ice from the roofs.
>
It just goes to show how many do not know what the image of the ancient
Greek dieties was. Of course, when these images are personified (ie take
human form) everyone can relate to the images from a variety of the human
points of view, but this does not account for why such a multitude of
objects with certain shapes are associated with the personifications. That
is, take away the greater human form and see what is left and what is in
common. Excercise your own mind rather than regurgitate what others have
written for you to read (and believe).
> > ii. As you correctly pointed out the Mykenaians also had temples, but
> > their form has alluded many since most consider the tholoi were grand
tombs
> > rather than places to worship chthonic gods.
>
> Bullshit again. The tholoi _were_ tombs, human remains were found in
> them. They were _not_ temples. The chthonic cults which preceded the
> Olympian rites used trenches, not altars. Read Harrison before you run
> your mouth again.
When you can answer the question as to what rises from the dead you will
have your answer to the worship of the chthonics and to the reasoning behind
the architecture and ornamentation of the ancient Greeks. Once again you
seem to be regurgitating no more than what others have written for you to
read (and believe).
June R Harton
> If you don't know that, then you're even more uneducated
> than you've already shown yourself to be.
Cleven, YOU talking about education?
Have you no shame at all?
from: Spirit Of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Franklin Cacciutto
that the gods existed as sacred sites long before they were embodied in temples
and expresssed in human form.
Agamemnon
"Franklin Cacciutto" <shad...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C53FFB0...@earthlink.net...
> Read Vincent Scully's The Earth, the Temples, and the Gods. It is his
thesis
> that the gods existed as sacred sites long before they were embodied in
temples
> and expresssed in human form.
The Gods were real people who ruled Greece before the Thara eruption.
o8TY
had a name and a synthetic form, and before the classic temples were built,
but the issue rests in why the sites were sacred, why the groves of trees,
which trees. The only way to determine the original image of the dieties is
to extrapolate back, and then to work forward with the proof. Unfortunately
Scully did not come up with the answer.
--
o8TY
o8TY
interesting theory, to say the least) but something else to say they were
real people. While some characters might be deemed eponymous ancestors,
others clearly migrated to the region as cults. It would be more sensible to
relate your timescale to the reign of certain cults.
--
o8TY
"Agamemnon" <replace.wi...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a310td$mp1$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
sarah
sarah
> In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> soli...@earthling.net writes:
> > Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b6171dd...@news.earthlink.net>...
> > > In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> > > soli...@earthling.net writes:
> > >
> > > > The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
> > > > fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
> > > > continuance of some type.
> > >
> > > Maybe, and not commonly. Mostly Neandertal burial consisted of dumping
> > > the body somewhere far from camp where it wouldn't attract predators.
> > > The ochre site is uncertain, and may have been the action of rodents.
> >
> > It would be really nice if you actually _learned_ something about the
> > subject before running your mouth, kid.
>
> So some senile old bat like you can run at the other end? Things have
> changed a lot since the 1900's, granny.
>
> > Bodies _dumped_ without any ritual accoutrements or preparation have
> > never been found, to my knowledge. Those bodies found have been
> > carefully prepared for burial, and red ochre is not a common dietary
> > component for rats, who would have no reason to sprinkle dead human
> > bodies with it.
>
> Wrong. There is ONE possible ochre burial site. Most sites show no
> burial preparation at all.
Cite your source, brat.
>
> > > Your timeline astonishes me. The Delian games were in full swing by the
> > > 9th century, and the temples of Apollo and Athena Pronaos had already
> > > been constructed at Delphi.
> >
> > The earliest known "games" are those of Olympia, and according to
> > Greek tradition, they were instituted by Herakles to commemorate the
> > truce between the cities of Elis and Pylos in the early-to-mid 8th
> > century.
>
> Wrong again. The first games were the Delian games at Delphi, which
> predate the Olympic games by centuries. They were originally held every
> 8 years, but were changed to every 4 years when the Olympiad was
> instituted.
WRONG. CITE YOUR SOURCE.
> > > Perhaps you are thinking of stone temples.
> >
> > The earliest known _temple_, PERIOD, was a temple of Apollo, built in
> > the 9th century.
>
> There was a temple at Delphi as early as 1500 bce. (16th centur
Again: CITE YOUR SOURCE.
>
> > > Which cthonic cults are you talking about? The ones I am familiar with -
> > > Orpheus, Demeter/Persephone/Adonis and Dionysus are imports from Asia
> > > Minor, and fairly late at that. It is interesting that you would mention
> > > Mycenae, since early graves there were simple shaft graves with little or
> > > no adornment. There is no indication that an afterlife played any major
> > > role in their mythology.
>
> > Never said it did, asshole. Learn to read.
>
> Then what the hell was that diatribe about all those mystery cults about?
>
> > > The absence of a temple is indeterminate, since
> > > the whole site has been rebuilt so many times only a small fraction of it
> > > still exists.
>
> > You haven't read any of the books on the digs, have you? There was one
> > ritual site in the entire place, a small space away from the
> > "official" buildings.
>
> Interesting, since the archaeological record has been destroyed. You are
> confusing what they found with what existed.
Then you are asserting what cannot be proved, ever.
> > > Let's clarify what Greece is
>
> > Let's not, since you don't know shit about it anyway.
>
> I don't know why I bother with a snotty bitch like you.
>
> Everybody is born ignorant, but you had to work at getting that stupid.
I'm brilliant compared to some folks who think they know what _can't_ be known.
Agamemnon
> It is one thing to ascribe a timescale for these characters (which is very
> interesting theory, to say the least) but something else to say they were
> real people. While some characters might be deemed eponymous ancestors,
> others clearly migrated to the region as cults. It would be more sensible
to
> relate your timescale to the reign of certain cults.
The only cult that was practised in Greece was ancestor worship and that
implies that the ancestors and Gods were real people.
Dionysus was a real general who lived between 1431 and 1360 BC. The first
temple built in Greece was to Dionysus and was built by Melampus in the
reign of Perseus in order to placate this God in about 1333 BC.
Linear-B inscriptions bearing the name Dionysios along with most of the
other Gods date to 1250 BC therefore these cannot have been foreign cults.
The destruction of the Minoan colony in Cyprus by the Mycenaean's dates to
1400 BC and that substantiates the account of Cinyras the son of Paphos the
son Pygmalion the son of Belus who funded the city of Paphos.
Pygmalion was Cadmus cousin and lived in 1453 BC, and Cadmus was Dionysus
grandfather.
Dionysus is said to have gone to Egypt during the reign of Proetus and
reinstalled Ammon as king. Ammon is clearly Amenhotep. Since Ammon is said
to have been reinstalled it cannot be Amenhtep I.
That leaves 3 kings by that name Amenhotep II 1453-1419, Amenhotep III
1386-1349 and Amenhotep IV 1350-1334 as the prime candidates.
It cant be Amenhotep IV since he ruled directly after Amenhotep III and the
account say that a Proetus ruled in between. Since Amenhotep II reigned at
the time of the Deukalion flood which dates to between 1460 and 1400 BC and
is linked to the Hittite king list since a Thurgal/Tudhalia ruled Phrygia
and was known as Teucer to the Greeks that means that Dionysus was
responsible for putting Amenhotep III on the throne in 1386 which was his
first major victory and is what brought him to Godhood.
Pelops and Tantalus were also real people since Tantalus was the king of
Lydia and Phrygia. To the Lydians he would have been known as Candaules
since according to Herodotus this was equivalent to the Greek name Myrsilus
which is the Hittite name Mursilis.
3 Hittite kings were know by the name Mursilis. Mursilis I was to early and
that leaves either Mursilis II 1345-1315 or Mursilis III 1275-1250.
Niobe the sister of Pelops was married to Amphion the king of Thebes who
ruled while Laius was in exile. Laius died in 1264 BC a date which can be
reached through the chronology of Herakles since Herakles marred Megara the
daughter of Creon the king of Thebes before he began his labours in 1258 BC.
Creon ruled Thebes in the year when Oedipus killed Laius and since Megara
was 33 years old when Herakles ended his Labours and had from 2 to 8
children by Herakles that means that she must have married him when she was
16. The date is also corroborated by the Athenians king list since Aegues
attended a game held in Laius honour and this is when he killed Andrgeus the
son of Minos 18 year before Theseus killed the Minotaur.
Since Laius was already an old man when he died that means he would have
been born in 1339 at the latest and because he was only one year old when
his father Labdacus died Lycus acted as regent and then usurped the throne
for 20 years accordin to Apollodorus, until he was deposed by Amphion.
Therefore Amphion the husband of Pelops sister Niobe would ruled between
1319 at the earliest and at least 18 years before 1264 since Oedepus was
born while Laius was on the throne.
This establishes that Mursilis II 1345-1315 or Candaules to the Lydians was
Tantalus and therefore Pelops fled Phrygia in 1315 which was while Illyus
was king of Troy.
Also Hattie records mention that an Atreus, the son of Pelops staged raids
on their territory in c.1250 BC. This would have been at about the time that
Atreus had ended his first reign as High King of Myceanae and been replaced
by Eurystheus. His second reign was marked by a Total Solar Eclipse sent by
Zeus and this took place on 5 March 1223 and was probably the best place
eclipse over Mycenae in the past 4000 years.
Herakles conception is also marked by a Total Solar Eclipse on 10 February
1286 when Zeus made one night into 3, or last 36 hours. His marriage to
Megara took place some time after his 18 birthday in 1268 after he had slept
with all of Thestius 50 daughters.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>
> --
> o8TY
Chris Siren
> "o8TY" <ob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> news:uM058.10183$N31.4...@ozemail.com.au...
> > It is one thing to ascribe a timescale for these characters (which is very
> > interesting theory, to say the least) but something else to say they were
> > real people. While some characters might be deemed eponymous ancestors,
> > others clearly migrated to the region as cults. It would be more sensible
> to
> > relate your timescale to the reign of certain cults.
>
> The only cult that was practised in Greece was ancestor worship and that
> implies that the ancestors and Gods were real people.
>
> Dionysus was a real general who lived between 1431 and 1360 BC. The first
> temple built in Greece was to Dionysus and was built by Melampus in the reign
> of Perseus in order to placate this God in about 1333 BC.
>
> Linear-B inscriptions bearing the name Dionysios along with most of the other
> Gods date to 1250 BC therefore these cannot have been foreign cults.
While certainly some of the Greek deities who bear similarity to Near Eastern
deities do so through syncrenization, others appear more directly adopted. In
particular the Sumerian sky god An appears to have made his way to Greece
through a somewhat less tortuous etymological route than one might be used to in
these threads. Babylonians called An "Anu", the Hittites and Hurrians adopted
Anu from the Babylonians and Assyrians. The nominative ending in Hittite for
Anu rendered him "Anus" in that language and clear parallels between Anus's role
in the Hittite Kumarbi cycle and Uranus's role in Hesiod's Theogony suggest that
he made his way to Greece via that route. An shows up in Sumerian writing in
the third or fourth millenium BCE. Anu shows up in Akkadian in the third
millenium BCE and Anus shows up in the Hittite cycle at least as early as 1350
BCE.
> The destruction of the Minoan colony in Cyprus by the Mycenaean's dates to
> 1400 BC and that substantiates the account of Cinyras the son of Paphos the
> son Pygmalion the son of Belus who funded the city of Paphos.
>
> Pygmalion was Cadmus cousin and lived in 1453 BC, and Cadmus was Dionysus
> grandfather.
I'm not sure how common the name Pygmalion was but there was indeed at least one
legitimately historical Pygmalion, a Phoenician/Canaanite ruler of Tyre around
810 BCE and brother of Elissa/Dido who found further fame in the Aeniad.
Chris Siren http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/
Myths and Legends http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/myth.html
Agamemnon
"Chris Siren" <vze3...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3C553E81...@verizon.net...
Since the Greek Linear-B inscription of 1250 BC contains the names of Zeus
and Poseidon who were Uranus grandsons i.e. 3 generations later, the Greeks
must have been using the name Uranus long before the Hittites.
Uranus in Greek mythology would date to 1750 BC which is before the Hittite
empire was founded (c. 1600)
The name Uranus, is from the same root as Chaos, Cronos, Charon, and Ceiron
and is the Greek word Karanos meaning Head and is also the root of the
Phoenician name Hiram or Ahiram.
1750 is also the time that the Egyptians first mention the city of Tyre
whose name also derives form the same Greek root as Tyranos or Tyrant and is
equivalent to the Hittite Taru or Tera or Assyrain Tartan or Tartak, which
derive from the Greek root Tartarus which is also the root of Candaules and
Tantalus.
The most probable root for Karanus is the Proto-Indo-European root Wa-na-ka
which is the root of the number One, or Ena, Une, etc.
Anu would therefore be and Indo-European word and not Sumerian or Akkadian
since it is the same word as Ena or One i.e. Wa-na which is also the name of
Io who Herodotus calls Ioun.
The root for all of these names from Uranus to Karanus to Hiram is
"Di-Wa-Na-Ka-De-Mo-(s)" which in modern Greek is "Deus Anax Demos" or "Holy
Lord of the People" and is also the root of Deukalion which in Hittitre is
Tudhalia or Thurgal, when Demos is replaced by Laos also meaning people
since in the Greek myth Deukalion create people out of stones or Laas and is
the reason why in many laguages the word for people and stones/pebbles is
the same. Adamos or Adam works on the same principle since it literally
means "from the sand" Ad-Amos or more correctly Po-t'-Amos and is the root
of the Egyptian words Amon and Aton and the Sumerian/Babylonian God Tammuz
who's name becomes Thames and is the root of the name of virtually every
river in Europe, the Ro-Danus or Rhone/Rhine the Eri-Dauns or Danube and the
Po.
So there were never any real Gods. The names of all of the Gods were the
titles of Kings and came form one distinct root Di-Wa-Na-Ka-De-Mo-(s) which
existed in Proto-Indo-European Greek in about 7000 BC which was also the
time when Agriculture spread to Europe from Phoenicia which was then
populated by the of the Europeans descended from Jasmine.
>
> > The destruction of the Minoan colony in Cyprus by the Mycenaean's dates
to
> > 1400 BC and that substantiates the account of Cinyras the son of Paphos
the
> > son Pygmalion the son of Belus who funded the city of Paphos.
> >
> > Pygmalion was Cadmus cousin and lived in 1453 BC, and Cadmus was
Dionysus
> > grandfather.
>
> I'm not sure how common the name Pygmalion was but there was indeed at
least one
> legitimately historical Pygmalion, a Phoenician/Canaanite ruler of Tyre
around
> 810 BCE and brother of Elissa/Dido who found further fame in the Aeniad.
Bare in mind that the original Phoenicians/Canaanites were all
Indo-Europeans and this is proven by DNA analysis which make the decedents
of Jasmine. The name Israel in the bible is actually Yawrel and this is
clearly a corruption of Europe the name of the sister of Cadmus or
Ka-De-Mo-(s).
Ka-De-Mo-(s) is what becomes Karanos
Larry Caldwell
> Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b958cad...@news.earthlink.net>...
> > In article <a01cf0c5.02012...@posting.google.com>,
> > soli...@earthling.net writes:
> > Wrong. There is ONE possible ochre burial site. Most sites show no
> > burial preparation at all.
> Cite your source, brat.
****************************
From: http://www.athenapub.com/8shea1.htm
Burial and Mortuary Ritual: Contrasts between Neanderthal and early
modern human burials from the Levant provide a third line of evidence
for behavioral differences. Burial of the dead is often associated
with ritual, but it may have been practiced in the past for the more
practical purpose of minimizing carnivore visits to habitation sites.
If burial was for the latter reason alone, then there is no reason to
expect objects immediately near the skeleton to differ significantly
from those in the surrounding sediments. This seems to be true of all
of the claimed Neanderthal burials from the Levant. Even the famous
“flower burial” from Shanidar, long a mainstay of claims
for Neanderthal mortuary ritual, may have been caused by rodents
(Meriones persica) storing flowers in their burrows (Sommer 1999).
Most of the early modern human skeletons from Skhul and Qafzeh are
also simple burials, but two notable exceptions, where skeletons were
found with unusual animal bones, may indicate that early modern humans
practiced different social strategies from those of Neanderthals.
***************************
You have been reading too much Jean Auel, granny. It has rotted your
brain.
> > > The earliest known "games" are those of Olympia, and according to
> > > Greek tradition, they were instituted by Herakles to commemorate the
> > > truce between the cities of Elis and Pylos in the early-to-mid 8th
> > > century.
> > Wrong again. The first games were the Delian games at Delphi, which
> > predate the Olympic games by centuries. They were originally held every
> > 8 years, but were changed to every 4 years when the Olympiad was
> > instituted.
> WRONG. CITE YOUR SOURCE.
A slight typo there. The Delian games were at Delos, and with the
Pythian games at Delphi also long predated the Olympiad:
********************
Thucydides: The History of the Peloponnesian War, c. 404 BCE
The Lacedaemonians were the first who in their athletic exercises
stripped naked and rubbed themselves over with oil. But this was not
the ancient custom; athletes formerly, even when they were contending
at Olympia, wore loin-cloths, a practice which lasted until quite
lately, and still prevails among Barbarians, especially those of Asia,
where the combatants at boxing and wrestling matches wear loin-cloths.
It was at this time, after the purification, that the Athenians first
celebrated the quinquennial festival of the Delian games. There had
been, however, even in very early times, a great assembly of the
Ionians and the neighboring islanders held at Delos; for they used to
come to the feast with their wives and children, as the Ionians now do
to the Ephesian festivals, and gymnastic and musical contests were
held, and the different cities took up bands of dancers.
******************
As for the Pythian games being held at Delphi every 8 years and also
predating the Olympiad, this is common historic knowledge. I don't
have a primary reference, but any thorough article on the history of
the Pythian games mentions it.
from http://library.thinkquest.org/17709/sports/osports.htm
********************
The Pythian Games.
According the old stories the Pythian games were organised for the
first time, after the Python was killed by Apollo. the games existed
of music-contests, a good manner to honor the God of music, Apollo. At
first the games were held every eight years, but since the 6th century
before Christ the games took place every four years. Since 582 before
Christ the games were extended with athletic games and they were
organised by the Amphitymony of Delphi. All the Greek cities took part
of these great games. The Pythian games were held during 6 to 8 days
and their programm was opened by a processian of priests and many
offers. Then there were cultural activities, wich were citer- and song
contests, flute contests, dithrambe contests and tragedy contests. The
athletic contests were almost the same as the Olympic games. The
winners were done great honor by a laurel crown and lots of honour and
privileges.
**********************
> > > > Perhaps you are thinking of stone temples.
> > >
> > > The earliest known _temple_, PERIOD, was a temple of Apollo, built in
> > > the 9th century.
> > There was a temple at Delphi as early as 1500 bce. (16th centur
> Again: CITE YOUR SOURCE.
While Delphi suffered from the inexpert archaeology of the late 19th
century, there is no doubt that it was a major Mycenaean cult center
in the bronze age. The worship of Python is well attested. Apollo
never managed to completely supplant the goddess.
************************
from: http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/pagepaper2.html
Before housing the sanctuary of Apollo, Delphi was once the site of an
oracle of the earth goddess Gaea. During Gaea's reign in the Bronze
Age, the site earned the name Pytho for the Python, the great serpent
offspring of Gaea produced from the slime left on the earth after the
great flood. The Python lived in a cave on Mount Parnassus where he
guarded Gaea's shrine. According to mythology, Apollo slew the Python,
expelled Gaea from the sanctuary, and was thereafter known as Pythian
Apollo. Apollo was said to have established the Pythian games, one of
the four great athletic and drama festivals of ancient Greece, to
commemorate his victory over the Python.
*************************
The 19th century French had the same attitude you do; if it wasn't
carved out of marble it was not worth preserving.
Now, let's see YOU come up with some support for the fairy tales you
have been posting.
Agamemnon
"Italo" <cucNOS...@home.nl> wrote in message
news:3C55A976...@home.nl...
> X-No-archive: yes
>
> Agamemnon schreef:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > Pygmalion was Cadmus cousin and lived in 1453 BC, and Cadmus was
Dionysus
> > > > grandfather.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure how common the name Pygmalion was but there was indeed at
least one
> > > legitimately historical Pygmalion, a Phoenician/Canaanite ruler of
Tyre around
> > > 810 BCE and brother of Elissa/Dido who found further fame in the
Aeniad.
> >
> > Bare in mind that the original Phoenicians/Canaanites were all
> > Indo-Europeans and this is proven by DNA analysis which make the
decedents
> > of Jasmine. The name Israel in the bible is actually Yawrel and this is
> > clearly a corruption of Europe the name of the sister of Cadmus or
> > Ka-De-Mo-(s).
>
Abraham.
>
> Cadmus' people came from Tyre, so maybe they are the same.
Possibly. Abraham lived c.1390 BC and was most probably a mythologisation
of Artashumara the king of the Mittani, so the Kadomites could have been
contemporary with Cadmus c.1450 BC
Complete biblical chronology below from Adam to Agrippa II:
Chris Siren
> "Chris Siren" <vze3...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:3C553E81...@verizon.net...
>
a) If Uranus can predate his mentioning in writing in Greece, why can
not Anus also predate his mentioning in writing in Hatti?
b) It is a faulty assumption that because later myths ascribe the
parentage of a deity to another deity, that the parent deity
had to be part of the culture as long or longer than the offspring
deity. Outside of the Greek context three others immediately
spring to mind.
i) Closer to my expertise is the case of Tiamat, who was the great
mother goddess of the Babylonians and Assyrians and, according
to the Enuma Elish, one of the first two deities, period. However,
the earliest deities attested to in Mesopotamia appear to include
Dumuzi and Inanna - both of whom are much further down the family
tree - and not include Apsu & Tiamat.
ii) Perhaps a more clear example can be found in Japanese mythology
where In and Yo (Yin and Yang) and about six other generations
of kami are co-opted directly from existing Taoist Chinese mythology
as the ancestors of Izanagi no Mikoto and Izanami no Mikoto.
Izanagi and Izamami are the earliest geneologically of the
authenticly Shinto Japanese deities. Most authors I've read
explain this as a reverence of the Japanese for Chinese thought
and writing and a means of establishing the legitimacy of their
own accounts. This would be not unlike British Arthurian legends
tacking their roots in the Aeniad, and Vergilius Maro's tacking
the roots of Rome onto the legends of the Trojan war. Perhaps
the early Greeks did something similar regarding Hittite legends.
iii) Within Hittite/Hurrian mythology themselves, I'll again use the
case of Anu. The earliest Anatolian myths mention Hannahannas,
the Storm-god, Telepinus, the Sea God, the Sun God and the Moon
God. Only later do the Storm-god's father Kumarbis, his
grandfather Anus, and his grandfather's predecesor Alalus make
appearances.
> The name Uranus, is from the same root as Chaos, Cronos, Charon, and Ceiron
> and is the Greek word Karanos meaning Head and is also the root of the
> Phoenician name Hiram or Ahiram.
I have some doubts about this but will only mention that Cronos is the Greek
analog of the Hurrian god Kumarbi, just as Zeus is the Storm-god's analog and
Uranus is Anus's analog. I also disagree with much of the etymology that
followed and which I have clipped. Claiming that the name "Anu" or "An" is of
Indo-European origin and not of Sumerian origin is particularly poor reasoning.
It may indeed be possible that Io is related to Anu - I do not know - but An's
place in Sumerian literature is well established long before the appearance of
any written Indo-European language and Sumerian's grammar and lexicon is also
clearly not Indo-European.
> > > The destruction of the Minoan colony in Cyprus by the Mycenaean's dates
> to
> > > 1400 BC and that substantiates the account of Cinyras the son of Paphos
> the
> > > son Pygmalion the son of Belus who funded the city of Paphos.
> > >
> > > Pygmalion was Cadmus cousin and lived in 1453 BC, and Cadmus was
> Dionysus
> > > grandfather.
> >
> > I'm not sure how common the name Pygmalion was but there was indeed at
> least one
> > legitimately historical Pygmalion, a Phoenician/Canaanite ruler of Tyre
> around
> > 810 BCE and brother of Elissa/Dido who found further fame in the Aeniad.
>
> Bare in mind that the original Phoenicians/Canaanites were all
> Indo-Europeans and this is proven by DNA analysis which make the decedents
> of Jasmine. The name Israel in the bible is actually Yawrel and this is
> clearly a corruption of Europe the name of the sister of Cadmus or
> Ka-De-Mo-(s).
>
> Ka-De-Mo-(s) is what becomes Karanos
Regardless of what DNA may prove about ancestry, it says nothing of what
languages those ancestors spoke or what deities they believed in. I have
Finnish, Welsh, Dutch, and Irish ancestry, but I know very little Suomi, Welsh,
Dutch or Gaelic. The Near East was a crossroads of many cultures and culture is
often carried by means other than birth.
Agamemnon
The Hittite myth of Anu is based on the same historical source as the Greek
myth of Uranus. The Hittite myth did NOT form the source of the Greek myth
since the entite pantheon of the Greek Gods already existed when the
Hittites wrote their mythology down. According to Herodotus the names of the
Greek Gods were brought to them from Egypt at about the time of the
Deukalion flood. This corroborates Plato and Solons account of the Egyptian
origin myth of Atlantis which covers the same period and events as the reign
of the Titians. The Egyptians recorded the military readiness and leaders of
all the surrounding people for obvious reasons and when the pre-Thera
eruption civilisation was destroyed and its records along with it, the
Egyptians were the only source of its history.
>
> b) It is a faulty assumption that because later myths ascribe the
> parentage of a deity to another deity, that the parent deity
> had to be part of the culture as long or longer than the offspring
> deity. Outside of the Greek context three others immediately
> spring to mind.
When three independent accounts cover exactly the same chronological period
and describe similar chronological events in the same region it is safe to
assume that events occurred in the order described. The myths of the
Hittites, the Titians and Atlantis all cover the same period and events in
exactly the same order. They all originated form the same source.
>
> i) Closer to my expertise is the case of Tiamat, who was the great
> mother goddess of the Babylonians and Assyrians and, according
> to the Enuma Elish, one of the first two deities, period. However,
> the earliest deities attested to in Mesopotamia appear to include
> Dumuzi and Inanna - both of whom are much further down the family
> tree - and not include Apsu & Tiamat.
Further more the names Dumuzi and Inanna have distinct Indo-European roots.
The names are meaningless in Sumerian but have a meaning in Greek which
suggests that the Indo-Europeans ruled over Mesopotamia long before the
Sumerians.
The Dumuzi cult originated form the annual flooding and drying cycle of the
Euphrates which to the Greeks was Potamos hence Tammuz and Thames.
Inanna which means nothing in Sumerian is Di-Wa-Na in Greek and means Queen.
In Latin it become Diana. Di-Wa-Na is also the name of Io or Ioun and the
full masculine form is Di-Wa-Na-Ka-De-Mo-(s) which give you the names of
both Inanna and Tammuz.
Tiamat is also a coruption of the same root, Di-Wa-Na-Ka-D > Tiwangat ?
Tiamat where Na-Ka is interpreted as a double gamma.
Di-Wa is also Gia another earth goddess and De-Mo is the root of the Hittite
Tera or Taru meaning earth of people.
By the amount of phonetic corruption that is taking place the assumption is
that the Indo-European people of Greece, Asia-Minor and the Middle East
spoke a common language about 9000 years ago which was spread alon the
Mediterranean coast along with Agriculture. This is corroborated by the
Genetics of the people in that region.
>
> ii) Perhaps a more clear example can be found in Japanese mythology
> where In and Yo (Yin and Yang) and about six other generations
> of kami are co-opted directly from existing Taoist Chinese mythology
> as the ancestors of Izanagi no Mikoto and Izanami no Mikoto.
> Izanagi and Izamami are the earliest geneologically of the
> authenticly Shinto Japanese deities. Most authors I've read
> explain this as a reverence of the Japanese for Chinese thought
> and writing and a means of establishing the legitimacy of their
> own accounts. This would be not unlike British Arthurian legends
> tacking their roots in the Aeniad, and Vergilius Maro's tacking
> the roots of Rome onto the legends of the Trojan war. Perhaps
> the early Greeks did something similar regarding Hittite legends.
Except the Greeks were there BEFORE the Hittites !
There was NO Hittite empire before 1600 BC so it is a big mistake to assume
the Hittite predeatd the Greeks. Greek civilisation began with the first
Achaean invasions dating from 2200 BC.
Herodotus dates the Eponymous ancestors of the Carians, Lydians and Mysians
to the time of the famine caused by the Thera Eruption and later Pausanius
makes them decendents of Phoroneus. Therefore the Hittites came after Greeks
and took their gods from the Greeks.
The myth of Atlantis runs concurrently with that of the Gods and Titians and
judging by Herodotus it originated from the same Egyptian text as that of
the Gods and Titans. Since the rulers of Atlantis were equivalent to the
Titans and they ruled over all of Europe and Asia this means that the
Hittites were a subject race to the Greeks if there were any Hittites at
all.
>
> iii) Within Hittite/Hurrian mythology themselves, I'll again use the
> case of Anu. The earliest Anatolian myths mention Hannahannas,
> the Storm-god, Telepinus, the Sea God, the Sun God and the Moon
> God. Only later do the Storm-god's father Kumarbis, his
> grandfather Anus, and his grandfather's predecesor Alalus make
> appearances.
>
> > The name Uranus, is from the same root as Chaos, Cronos, Charon, and
Ceiron
> > and is the Greek word Karanos meaning Head and is also the root of the
> > Phoenician name Hiram or Ahiram.
>
> I have some doubts about this but will only mention that Cronos is the
Greek
> analog of the Hurrian god Kumarbi, just as Zeus is the Storm-god's analog
and
> Uranus is Anus's analog. I also disagree with much of the etymology that
Next you be telling me that Thor and Odin were also Zeus but it happens that
they lived more than 1000 years later.
Zeus, Deus, Anu, Anax, Karanos, Cronos, Taru, Ares etc all have one thing in
common. They are the TITLES of kings. It is natural to infer upon the king
with the attributes of a storm god since the king was responsible for
determining the most appropriate time when to sow the harvest and when to
wage war, usually in between harvests.
> followed and which I have clipped. Claiming that the name "Anu" or "An"
is of
> Indo-European origin and not of Sumerian origin is particularly poor
reasoning.
No it is not. The DNA evidence shows that Syria-Palestine was populated by
Europeans 10,000 years ago and this is where the Proto-Indo-European
language was disseminated from.
> It may indeed be possible that Io is related to Anu - I do not know - but
An's
> place in Sumerian literature is well established long before the
appearance of
> any written Indo-European language and Sumerian's grammar and lexicon is
also
> clearly not Indo-European.
The Gods of the Sumerians were not Sumerians just like the Gods of the
Babylonians were not Babylonians. The Sumerians borrowed the Gods from the
people that lived in the land before them and ruled over them. These people
were Indo-Europeans since all the names of the primary Sumerian Gods are
Indo-European.
Look at the name of the God of the Phoenicians Melquat. This name is exactly
the same as Melech, Maraduk, and even Baal which is the Babylonian
equivalent.
The point is that the common root of all of these name doe NOT come form an
Afro-Asiatic language but come for an Indo-European language.
Melech derives from the Geek root Wanax which derives from the
Proto-Indo-European root Wa-Na-Ka-(s) which is the root of the Number ONE.
In Sanskrit its Ekas, in Lithuanian its Vienas.
Thus we have Wa-Na-Ka-(s) > Me-Le-Ka-(s) > Me-Le-Qu-(rt)
Wa-Na-Ka is also Va-La-Ka-(s/rt) where the Germanic Valkarie or queen
originates from and of course its also Ve-La-(s) or Belus which is Vul or
Baal to the Babylonians.
The linguistic evidence show that the names of all the kings of Mesopotamia
and Syria-Palestine have Indo-European roots and when that is combined with
the DNA evidence this forms an overwhelming argument that the Gods are an
ancestral memory of the people who brought Agriculture to the region. Even
the word Pharaoh derive from Wanax as does Phoenix, Felus and Felix.
Chris Siren
Considering Herodotous is about 900 years removed from the
Hurrian version of the story and that the story of the movement
of the Greek gods from Egypt to Greece has no relation to the
Kumarbi myth, your citing of these as sources for a Greek
origin of Anu is flawed.
> > b) It is a faulty assumption that because later myths ascribe the
> > parentage of a deity to another deity, that the parent deity
> > had to be part of the culture as long or longer than the offspring
> > deity. Outside of the Greek context three others immediately
> > spring to mind.
>
> When three independent accounts cover exactly the same chronological period
> and describe similar chronological events in the same region it is safe to
> assume that events occurred in the order described. The myths of the Hittites,
> the Titians and Atlantis all cover the same period and events in
> exactly the same order. They all originated form the same source.
But then this would mean that they weren't independent
accounts wouldn't it?
> > i) Closer to my expertise is the case of Tiamat, who was the great
> > mother goddess of the Babylonians and Assyrians and, according
> > to the Enuma Elish, one of the first two deities, period. However,
> > the earliest deities attested to in Mesopotamia appear to include
> > Dumuzi and Inanna - both of whom are much further down the family
> > tree - and not include Apsu & Tiamat.
>
> Further more the names Dumuzi and Inanna have distinct Indo-European roots.
> The names are meaningless in Sumerian but have a meaning in Greek which
> suggests that the Indo-Europeans ruled over Mesopotamia long before the
> Sumerians.
Hardly. The name Dumuzi is a compound name from the roots
Dumu which means child and Zi which means 'truth' or 'good',
thus Dumuzi essentially means "good son". See John Halloran's
Sumerian language page at http://www.sumerian.org. Inanna
was translated by Samuel Noah Kramer as meaning "Lady of
the Date Clusters" where "anna" means date clusters.
> The Dumuzi cult originated form the annual flooding and drying cycle of the
> Euphrates which to the Greeks was Potamos hence Tammuz and Thames.
>
> Inanna which means nothing in Sumerian is Di-Wa-Na in Greek and means Queen.
> In Latin it become Diana. Di-Wa-Na is also the name of Io or Ioun and the
> full masculine form is Di-Wa-Na-Ka-De-Mo-(s) which give you the names of
> both Inanna and Tammuz.
>
> Tiamat is also a coruption of the same root, Di-Wa-Na-Ka-D > Tiwangat ?
> Tiamat where Na-Ka is interpreted as a double gamma.
>
> Di-Wa is also Gia another earth goddess and De-Mo is the root of the Hittite
> Tera or Taru meaning earth of people.
>
> By the amount of phonetic corruption that is taking place the assumption is
> that the Indo-European people of Greece, Asia-Minor and the Middle East
> spoke a common language about 9000 years ago which was spread alon the
> Mediterranean coast along with Agriculture. This is corroborated by the
> Genetics of the people in that region.
I've stated my disagreements with your etymologies in the past
as have others, so I consider it pointless to argue those points
again.
> > ii) Perhaps a more clear example can be found in Japanese mythology
> > where In and Yo (Yin and Yang) and about six other generations
> > of kami are co-opted directly from existing Taoist Chinese mythology
> > as the ancestors of Izanagi no Mikoto and Izanami no Mikoto.
> > Izanagi and Izamami are the earliest geneologically of the
> > authenticly Shinto Japanese deities. Most authors I've read
> > explain this as a reverence of the Japanese for Chinese thought
> > and writing and a means of establishing the legitimacy of their
> > own accounts. This would be not unlike British Arthurian legends
> > tacking their roots in the Aeniad, and Vergilius Maro's tacking
> > the roots of Rome onto the legends of the Trojan war. Perhaps
> > the early Greeks did something similar regarding Hittite legends.
>
> Except the Greeks were there BEFORE the Hittites !
>
> There was NO Hittite empire before 1600 BC so it is a big mistake to assume
> the Hittite predeatd the Greeks. Greek civilisation began with the first
> Achaean invasions dating from 2200 BC.
Harry Hoffner Jr's _Hittite Myths_ states about the Hittites:
No one knows whether they came over the Caucasus or the
Bosphorus. The time of their arrival is also uncertain,
although to allow time for the linguistic differentiation
between the sister languages Hittite, Luwian, and Palic
it has been suggested that all Indo-European groups were
in Anatolia by around 2300. The earliest Old Hittite kings,
Labarna I and Hattusili I, reigned during the eighteenth
century.
Furthermore Japanese myths weren't written down and joined to
the Chinese cycle until around 700 CE, but Japanese civilization
dates back around 1000-1400 years earlier. Having a culture
does not prevent you from modifying it. No one wrote about
Uranus as a Greek deity until after he appeared in Hurrian myth
regardless of whether other Greek deity names may have been
written in Linear B earlier. Taking 2200 BC as your begining
of Greek civilization, then even if new evidence suggestiong
Uranus was amongst those earlier Greek deities were to be found,
his appearance there would still postdate his Babylonian and
Sumerian predecessors Anu and An by hundreds of years.
> Herodotus dates the Eponymous ancestors of the Carians, Lydians and Mysians
> to the time of the famine caused by the Thera Eruption and later Pausanius
> makes them decendents of Phoroneus. Therefore the Hittites came after Greeks
> and took their gods from the Greeks.
>
> The myth of Atlantis runs concurrently with that of the Gods and Titians and
> judging by Herodotus it originated from the same Egyptian text as that of
> the Gods and Titans. Since the rulers of Atlantis were equivalent to the
> Titans and they ruled over all of Europe and Asia this means that the
> Hittites were a subject race to the Greeks if there were any Hittites at
> all.
Others have objected to this line of reasoning before and
I will not repeat those objections.
> > iii) Within Hittite/Hurrian mythology themselves, I'll again use the
> > case of Anu. The earliest Anatolian myths mention Hannahannas,
> > the Storm-god, Telepinus, the Sea God, the Sun God and the Moon
> > God. Only later do the Storm-god's father Kumarbis, his
> > grandfather Anus, and his grandfather's predecesor Alalus make
> > appearances.
> >
> > > The name Uranus, is from the same root as Chaos, Cronos, Charon, and
> Ceiron
> > > and is the Greek word Karanos meaning Head and is also the root of the
> > > Phoenician name Hiram or Ahiram.
> >
> > I have some doubts about this but will only mention that Cronos is the
> Greek
> > analog of the Hurrian god Kumarbi, just as Zeus is the Storm-god's analog
> and
> > Uranus is Anus's analog. I also disagree with much of the etymology that
>
> Next you be telling me that Thor and Odin were also Zeus but it happens that
> they lived more than 1000 years later.
>
> Zeus, Deus, Anu, Anax, Karanos, Cronos, Taru, Ares etc all have one thing in
> common. They are the TITLES of kings. It is natural to infer upon the king
> with the attributes of a storm god since the king was responsible for
> determining the most appropriate time when to sow the harvest and when to
> wage war, usually in between harvests.
An and Anu mean "heaven". An is used in several compound
words denoting characteristics having to do with heaven or
the sky. It is not found in words meaning king.
> > followed and which I have clipped. Claiming that the name "Anu" or "An"
> is of
> > Indo-European origin and not of Sumerian origin is particularly poor
> reasoning.
>
> No it is not. The DNA evidence shows that Syria-Palestine was populated by
> Europeans 10,000 years ago and this is where the Proto-Indo-European
> language was disseminated from.
>
> > It may indeed be possible that Io is related to Anu - I do not know - but
> An's
> > place in Sumerian literature is well established long before the
> appearance of
> > any written Indo-European language and Sumerian's grammar and lexicon is
> also
> > clearly not Indo-European.
>
> The Gods of the Sumerians were not Sumerians just like the Gods of the
> Babylonians were not Babylonians. The Sumerians borrowed the Gods from the
> people that lived in the land before them and ruled over them. These people
> were Indo-Europeans since all the names of the primary Sumerian Gods are
> Indo-European.
I never said the gods of the Sumerians or Babylonians were
Sumerians or Babylonians, rather that they were the creation
of those peoples. Yes, religion existed prior to the invention
of language, but it was not formalized, and differentiated until
the invention of language. Sumerian and Babylonian gods
themselves still had a number of variations from place to place
and time to time.
I clip the rest of the article as debates over etymologies with
you are pointless.
Agamemnon
Considering that Herodotus obtained the original story from the oldest
records of the people that were there at the time and did not need to invent
any kind of mythology, I would believe Herodotus.
As I have already said. Anu was the title for Lord and has in
Proto-Indo-European root which is the same as the root of the number one. In
Sanscrit its Ekas, in Greek enas or oi(w)os, Latin unas, Old Irish oin,
Lithuanian vienas, and in Albanian is nje. The root is Wa-na-ka and Anu
derives from a corrupted form of Wa-nu.
Whoever the Assyro-Babylonian version of Anu was he had no relation to
Uranus unless his mythology was dreamed up later than 1600 BC.
>
> > > b) It is a faulty assumption that because later myths ascribe the
> > > parentage of a deity to another deity, that the parent deity
> > > had to be part of the culture as long or longer than the offspring
> > > deity. Outside of the Greek context three others immediately
> > > spring to mind.
> >
> > When three independent accounts cover exactly the same chronological
period
> > and describe similar chronological events in the same region it is safe
to
> > assume that events occurred in the order described. The myths of the
Hittites,
>
> > the Titians and Atlantis all cover the same period and events in
>
> > exactly the same order. They all originated form the same source.
>
> But then this would mean that they weren't independent
> accounts wouldn't it?
The original source was REAL HISTORY. The Greeks made this history into the
Titians. The Hittites made it into their gods and the Egyptian kept the most
accurate record and that became Atlantis.
Pausanius quotes the Thebans by saying that before Cadmus Greece was
inhabited by the Ectenes. The Hittites called the Ectenes the Ekwash. In
Linear-B it become Eqetai. Solon made them into the Atlanta's.
After the Ectenes were destroyed by plague the Hyantes and Aones tribes
inhabited the land. Hyantes = Giants and Aones = Agiones = Ancients which
was the title of the Gods and also become Ionians and Aegean's/Achaeans.
>
> > > i) Closer to my expertise is the case of Tiamat, who was the great
> > > mother goddess of the Babylonians and Assyrians and, according
> > > to the Enuma Elish, one of the first two deities, period.
However,
> > > the earliest deities attested to in Mesopotamia appear to include
> > > Dumuzi and Inanna - both of whom are much further down the family
> > > tree - and not include Apsu & Tiamat.
> >
> > Further more the names Dumuzi and Inanna have distinct Indo-European
roots.
> > The names are meaningless in Sumerian but have a meaning in Greek which
> > suggests that the Indo-Europeans ruled over Mesopotamia long before the
> > Sumerians.
>
> Hardly. The name Dumuzi is a compound name from the roots
> Dumu which means child and Zi which means 'truth' or 'good',
> thus Dumuzi essentially means "good son". See John Halloran's
Retrospective canonisation is what I call it.
Zi means to live in Greek and Than mean to die. Why not "the one who lives
and dies". That would fit in better with Tammuz mythology.
Anyone can dream up a retrospective canonisation for the name Tammuz in any
language the like, so the only way the real meaning of the name can be
ascertained is if it has a common meaning in other languages. In all
Indo-European language Tammuz means RIVER.
> Sumerian language page at http://www.sumerian.org. Inanna
> was translated by Samuel Noah Kramer as meaning "Lady of
> the Date Clusters" where "anna" means date clusters.
Then why is EVERY major Europe river named Tammuz ?
The Thames, the Danube (Eri-Danus), the Rhone and Rhine (Ro-Danus), and the
Po. They all derive from Potamos and so does Tammuz because that was the
name of the Euphrates.
Inanna comes from Diwanaka or Diana and means Queen. The name Diana, Anaka,
Anna, Ioanna, and June, is common all over Europe.
Sumerian is not an Afro-Asiatic language and is most likely a form of early
corrupted Indo-European.
Thus the Hittites do not predate the Greeks who were there at around the
same time. You cannot claim the Greek Gods originated form the Hittites
because the Hittite are no older than the Greeks. The Greek and Hittite Gods
evolved from common history and common etymology. The Hittites were a
subject race to the Titians in 1720 BC and this was the Ectenes Greek tribe.
>
> Furthermore Japanese myths weren't written down and joined to
> the Chinese cycle until around 700 CE, but Japanese civilization
> dates back around 1000-1400 years earlier. Having a culture
> does not prevent you from modifying it. No one wrote about
> Uranus as a Greek deity until after he appeared in Hurrian myth
> regardless of whether other Greek deity names may have been
> written in Linear B earlier. Taking 2200 BC as your begining
> of Greek civilization, then even if new evidence suggestiong
> Uranus was amongst those earlier Greek deities were to be found,
> his appearance there would still postdate his Babylonian and
> Sumerian predecessors Anu and An by hundreds of years.
Uranus has nothing to do with Anu. Anu was a common Indo-European title
meaning King it literally means "the one".
Uranus was a real Greek king of the Ectenes tribe and ruled Greece in 1763
BC.
The Greek religion was firmly established in Greece by 1450 BC and the name
of the Olympian Pantheon are fully documented in Linear-B dating to 1250 BC.
The King lists of the Greeks go back as far as the Thera Eruption in 1628 BC
so their Gods would date before that time.
>
> > Herodotus dates the Eponymous ancestors of the Carians, Lydians and
Mysians
> > to the time of the famine caused by the Thera Eruption and later
Pausanius
> > makes them decendents of Phoroneus. Therefore the Hittites came after
Greeks
> > and took their gods from the Greeks.
> >
> > The myth of Atlantis runs concurrently with that of the Gods and Titians
and
> > judging by Herodotus it originated from the same Egyptian text as that
of
> > the Gods and Titans. Since the rulers of Atlantis were equivalent to the
> > Titans and they ruled over all of Europe and Asia this means that the
> > Hittites were a subject race to the Greeks if there were any Hittites at
> > all.
>
> Others have objected to this line of reasoning before and
> I will not repeat those objections.
You mean you cant refute it.
If that is the case then it cannot be of Assyro-Babylonian origin. In
Indo-European it means both Heaven and King and that must be its origin.
Language existed in 135,000 BC when Homo-sapiens developed speech centres in
the brain. The was no religion until the invention of Agriculture as there
was no need for organised labour to bring in the harvest. Religion developed
from ancestor worship except in the case of Tammuz which was a river God
cult, since the river Euphrates or Potamos fertilised the harvest.
o8TY
Never were truer words spoken.
> Before housing the sanctuary of Apollo, Delphi was once the site of an
> oracle of the earth goddess Gaea. During Gaea's reign in the Bronze
> Age, the site earned the name Pytho for the Python, the great serpent
> offspring of Gaea produced from the slime left on the earth after the
> great flood. The Python lived in a cave on Mount Parnassus where he
> guarded Gaea's shrine. According to mythology, Apollo slew the Python,
> expelled Gaea from the sanctuary, and was thereafter known as Pythian
> Apollo. Apollo was said to have established the Pythian games, one of
> the four great athletic and drama festivals of ancient Greece, to
> commemorate his victory over the Python.
> *************************
o8TY
o8TY
I sense that with so many of the names tracing back to a common and
widespread origin then the names themselves refer to an ongoing cult
practice rather than to real people who later became deified. There are no
doubt exceptions to this view but I was hoping for something more
substantial, more material, than simply a word list of
successors/predecessors.
Cheers
--
o8TY
"Agamemnon" <replace.wi...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a363g3$a0a$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
Philip Anderson
>
>The Neanderthalers buried their dead sprinkled with red ochre, in a
>fetal position, indicating a belief in rebirth or spiritual
>continuance of some type.
Not necessarily. Respect for the dead, also indicated by flowers left
on one body, doesn't necessarily imply a belief in that life continuing.
I'm not an atheist, but I doubt if many think dead bodies should be
unceremoniously dumped in the bin.
>Only wealthy rulers with an entrenched administration could command
>the economic resources necessary for such construction. The
>establishment of formal temples, religious priesthoods connected with
>public administration and military rulers, and the spread of literacy
>(and the recording of specific localized traditions regarding the
>gods) all speak to the same thing: the Olympian hierarchy and the
>tales about Zeus were introduced from _outside_ Greece. Native Greek
>cults before that time did not use formal temples.
The name of Zeus, and his function as a sky god, is part of the Greek
inheritance from their Indo-European inheritance; even if it was ignored
in Mycenean times, then it certainly came in with the Dorian invasions.
The use of architectural temples, as distinct from sacred places, was
not part of the IE inheritance and is not an essential part of the cults
of the Greek gods, so I fail to see why this cannot have been an
innovation within existing religious beliefs, influenced by contact with
Egypt and other cultures, and as you say yourself reflecting a new
economic situation (though with wealthy aristocrats and oligarchs as
much as with individual rulers). The myths known to have been borrowed
from Anatolia and Syria were of a quite different kind.
>Also: bear in mind that the sagas were written down by monks,
Not always true, and I suspect not often; eg the most prolific saga
writer, Snorri Sturluson was not a monk, but an active politician.
BTW, the quote, "You rogues, do you want to live forever!", is usually
attributed to Frederick the Great.
--
hwyl/cheers
Philip Anderson
Cymru/Wales
Larry Caldwell
> I never said the gods of the Sumerians or Babylonians were
> Sumerians or Babylonians, rather that they were the creation
> of those peoples. Yes, religion existed prior to the invention
> of language, but it was not formalized, and differentiated until
> the invention of language. Sumerian and Babylonian gods
> themselves still had a number of variations from place to place
> and time to time.
How do you figure that religion predates language? There couldn't
even be heroic tales without a language to tell them in.
The archaeological record doesn't even show burial ritual in the early
modern human record. The first rock paintings and burial rituals only
date back maybe 50,000 years, long after language had been invented.
While the exact date that the human race invented language is in
question, there is no doubt that religion itself is an invention.
Once upon a time, the human race did not have religion.
If you were trying to say that Sumerian gods existed prior to the
development of the Sumerian language, that makes me curious. It would
take some serious anthropological sleuthing to establish that.
Larry
Mike Cleven
Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
> Chris Siren <vze3...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3C567951...@verizon.net>...
>
> > I never said the gods of the Sumerians or Babylonians were
> > Sumerians or Babylonians, rather that they were the creation
> > of those peoples. Yes, religion existed prior to the invention
> > of language, but it was not formalized, and differentiated until
> > the invention of language. Sumerian and Babylonian gods
> > themselves still had a number of variations from place to place
> > and time to time.
>
> How do you figure that religion predates language? There couldn't
> even be heroic tales without a language to tell them in.
The nostrum that language and religion/mythology are co-original; they
are associated with each other; is a basic idea of mythographical and
linguistics cf. Eliade, Levi-Strauss, Barbeau. Words for "gods" and
spirits came from the same era as the words for fire, water etc (in fact
they may have been indistinguishable; words represent concept; if
conceptualization of the world includes divine/paradivine perceptions,
then those words are necessarily religious in character. IMO music and
dance come from the same genus, but that's a longer discussion. What
came first - the word for fire, or for the spirit of fire? In early
man, I don't think they made any conceptual difference......
>
> The archaeological record doesn't even show burial ritual in the early
> modern human record. The first rock paintings and burial rituals only
> date back maybe 50,000 years, long after language had been invented.
> While the exact date that the human race invented language is in
> question, there is no doubt that religion itself is an invention.
> Once upon a time, the human race did not have religion.
>
> If you were trying to say that Sumerian gods existed prior to the
> development of the Sumerian language, that makes me curious. It would
> take some serious anthropological sleuthing to establish that.
See above.
MC
Chris Siren
What I intended to say was "written language". I've been opperating on
low sleep the past few days so that one slipped by me.
Chris Siren
Alice K. Turner
> Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
> > Chris Siren <vze3...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<3C567951...@verizon.net>...
> >
> > > I never said the gods of the Sumerians or Babylonians were
> > > Sumerians or Babylonians, rather that they were the creation
> > > of those peoples. Yes, religion existed prior to the invention
> > > of language, but it was not formalized, and differentiated until
> > > the invention of language. Sumerian and Babylonian gods
> > > themselves still had a number of variations from place to place
> > > and time to time.
> >
> > How do you figure that religion predates language? There couldn't
> > even be heroic tales without a language to tell them in.
> >
> > The archaeological record doesn't even show burial ritual in the early
> > modern human record. The first rock paintings and burial rituals only
> > date back maybe 50,000 years, long after language had been invented.
> > While the exact date that the human race invented language is in
> > question, there is no doubt that religion itself is an invention.
> > Once upon a time, the human
> > development of the Sumerian language, that makes me curious. It would
> > take some serious anthropological sleuthing to establish that.
But it could predate language. It doesn't take language to be in awe of the
sun and the moon. Why even dogs worship the moon <g>. Now I'll tell you
something absolutely true: one of my cats has religion. She worships the
Food God and lays offerings beside her dish, rubber bands or pencils (which
she loves) or one of her favorite toys. She doesn't do it every day, but at
least, say, three times a week, consistently. And it is also clear that *I*
am not the Food God, but merely the Messenger (or maybe the Butler)--she
doesn't bring me gifts. "Do ut des," isn't that the phrase? She gives and
she gets, and if that isn't religion I don't know what is.
Alice