mythology, astronomy and astrology
Chris Siren
time constraints with work, I am dismayed to see the signal to noise
ratio here has worsened significantly. In the interests of bringing
some on-topic discussion back to the group, as well as addressing some
of the source of this degeneration, I present the following question:
To what extent are mythology, astronomy, and astrology inter-related?
To proceed, we must first define our terms. For mythology, our general
FAQ defines it as follows:
> The word "myth" has several meanings. In the most general sense, it
> refers to any invented story, but in the sense used on alt.mythology,
> it refers to a traditional story, usually very old, which has or once
> had significant spiritual, moral, or social significance. "Mythology"
> refers both to a body of myths (such as all Greek myths) and to the
> study of myths.
>
> Important to the definition is what myth is not. Stories which, from
> their origin, are set in print and passed down unchanged are not myth.
> Myth is a form of folklore, which means that it is shaped by the
> "folk" in general, and not just one or a few authors. Many myths are
> collected in books, but they have had long oral traditions before
> that. Second, folklore is not myth if it is not a story, so proverbs,
> superstitions, riddles, etc. are not myth as such. However, they may
> appear in myths, and isolated elements of myths are often discussed in
> alt.mythology.
>
> Note that most stories associated with current religions are, by
> definition, myths. This does not belittle them; on the contrary, it
> says that people consider them important enough to repeat over many
> generations.
>
> Professionals distinguish between mythology, legend, and folk tale,
> although all get discussed without distinction on alt.mythology. Very
> briefly, myths are considered true by the people who tell them; they
> are usually set near the beginning of time and often concern the
> origins of things. Legends are also regarded as true, but are set
> later in history when the world was much as it is today. Folklore is
> considered false by the people telling it, and its setting in time and
> space is usually irrelevant. Myths are considered sacred, legends are
> more often secular, and folk tales aren't taken seriously (although
> the overall message might be). Although this classification is useful,
> there is plenty of overlap, and stories range over too much territory
> to fit nicely in any simple classification.
>
In addition, Barry Powell in _Classical Myth_ raises the following
qualifications about myths and mythology. He recounts that the word
"mythos" originally meant "speech", "story" or "plot". He further
qualifies myths as traditional stories, with characters, a setting, a
plot that were of anonymous authorship, having been handed down
generally orally through the generations in order to "explain a society
to itself".
Astronomy, while originally meaning "the naming of stars" has come to
mean the scientific study of all bodies beyond the atmosphere of the
planet Earth. Its purview includes the motions of planets, stars, and
galaxies as well as how those bodies interact with their constituent
parts and each other through forces and exchanges of matter and energy.
Since the seventeenth century, it has been considered a subset of physics.
Astrology, while originally meaning "the study of stars" confines such
study to divination - primarily foretelling the future or suggesting
best possible choices for a given person, or describing the chief
personality traits of an individual based upon which stars and planets
(including the sun and moon) were at what locations in the sky at the
moment of a person's birth, and where those stars and planets are as
seen from the individual's location on the Earth at the moment of the
particular choice.
Mythology is an art. Astronomy is a science. Astrology is a faith.
Astronomy and astrology had some overlap in their beginnings, and even
as late as Newton, some astronomers also practiced astrology although
they were held as separate modes of thought from much earlier. Their
common ground is in the common names of stars, constellations, and
planets, and in the prediction of where those planets and stars can be
seen from the Earth in the future. It goes no further.
The three share some common ground with mythology as well. A number of
myths describe celestial phenomena, and a number of constellations are
named for characters in mythology. Much of the cast of the Perseus
story in particular finds a home in the constellations of the northern
celestial hemisphere. Of course the planets also share the names of
Roman deities and the personalities of those deities are often reflected
in the astrological forecasts associated with those planets.
That about sums it up. There's little import in the ephemerides of the
planets as far as mythology is concerned. The daily motion of the
planets or one person's particular horoscope doesn't speak to the more
general or societal truths and archetypes that myths reach for.
Mentioning what constellation a particular planet is in, or whether it
is rising, setting, or overhead without actually setting any myth-based
context for the situation, has no relevance for a mythology newsgroup.
One ponders what possible relevance they might have in a newsgroup
devoted to seismology.
In alt.mythology, it might be more interesting to approach astrological
topics in this way: Examine the zodiacal constellations and look for
the associations that they have with sundry Mediterranean & Near Eastern
mythic personalities. Further examine the characteristics of those
personalities and those of the deities associated with the planets, Sun
and Moon. Compare, contrast, and/or _explain_ astrological forecasts in
light of these associations and in light of the myths those
personalities were involved in.
Bedeviled by Boreas and expecting the Fimbulvetr,
Chris Siren
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/myth.html
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/mythgenfaq.html
Derrick Everett
> Having absented myself from this newsgroup for nearly a year due to
> time constraints with work, I am dismayed to see the signal to noise
> ratio here has worsened significantly.
How pleasant to detect a signal in the noise. Thank you.
--
Derrick Everett (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from 59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm
frank green
Chris Siren wrote:
> Having absented myself from this newsgroup for nearly a year due to
> time constraints with work, I am dismayed to see the signal to noise
> ratio here has worsened significantly. In the interests of bringing
> some on-topic discussion back to the group, as well as addressing some
> of the source of this degeneration, I present the following question:
>
> To what extent are mythology, astronomy, and astrology inter-related?
>
> To proceed, we must first define our terms. For mythology, our general
> FAQ defines it as follows:
>
> > The word "myth" has several meanings. In the most general sense, it
> > refers to any invented story, but in the sense used on alt.mythology,
> > it refers to a traditional story, usually very old, which has or once
> > had significant spiritual, moral, or social significance. "Mythology"
> > refers both to a body of myths (such as all Greek myths) and to the
> > study of myths.
>
> >
> > Important to the definition is what myth is not. Stories which, from
> > their origin, are set in print and passed down unchanged are not myth.
Is this what Campbell would say?
Myth is to society or the collective unconscious as dream is to the
individual.
>
> > Myth is a form of folklore, which means that it is shaped by the
> > "folk" in general, and not just one or a few authors. Many myths are
> > collected in books, but they have had long oral traditions before
> > that. Second, folklore is not myth if it is not a story, so proverbs,
> > superstitions, riddles, etc. are not myth as such. However, they may
> > appear in myths, and isolated elements of myths are often discussed in
> > alt.mythology.
> >
> > Note that most stories associated with current religions are, by
> > definition, myths.
Story IS myth IS a higher truth. I think you speak on the level of cant.
> This does not belittle them; on the contrary, it
> > says that people consider them important enough to repeat over many
> > generations.
> >
> > Professionals
What? What do you mean? Professionals today include cosmetologists.
> distinguish between mythology, legend, and folk tale,
> > although all get discussed without distinction on alt.mythology. Very
> > briefly, myths are considered true by the people who tell them;
And as a higher truth by those who receive them. Life is melodrama; art is
real.
> they
> > are usually set near the beginning of time and often concern the
> > origins of things. Legends are also regarded as true, but are set
> > later in history when the world was much as it is today. Folklore is
> > considered false by the people telling it, and its setting in time and
> > space is usually irrelevant. Myths are considered sacred, legends are
> > more often secular, and folk tales aren't taken seriously (although
> > the overall message might be). Although this classification is useful,
> > there is plenty of overlap, and stories range over too much territory
> > to fit nicely in any simple classification.
This is fine for high school and false academics.
>
> >
> In addition, Barry Powell in _Classical Myth_ raises the following
> qualifications about myths and mythology. He recounts that the word
> "mythos" originally meant "speech", "story" or "plot".
Righto.
> He further
> qualifies myths as traditional stories, with characters, a setting, a
> plot that were of anonymous authorship, having been handed down
> generally orally through the generations in order to "explain a society
> to itself".
There you go. Righto.
>
>
> Astronomy, while originally meaning "the naming of stars" has come to
> mean the scientific study of all bodies beyond the atmosphere of the
> planet Earth. Its purview includes the motions of planets, stars, and
> galaxies as well as how those bodies interact with their constituent
> parts and each other through forces and exchanges of matter and energy.
> Since the seventeenth century, it has been considered a subset of physics.
Excellent. And "metaphysics . . . is the endeavor to frame a logical,
coherent, and necessary system of general ideas in terms of which we can
interpret every element of out experience."
>
>
> Astrology, while originally meaning "the study of stars" confines such
> study to divination - primarily foretelling the future or suggesting
> best possible choices for a given person, or describing the chief
> personality traits of an individual based upon which stars and planets
> (including the sun and moon) were at what locations in the sky at the
> moment of a person's birth, and where those stars and planets are as
> seen from the individual's location on the Earth at the moment of the
> particular choice.
>
> Mythology is an art.
Art is the combination of craft and vision; thus, myth is a higher truth than
so-called reality, or in fact is reality.
> Astronomy is a science. Astrology is a faith.
Astrology is not faith at all. It is a weak-minded search for causality,
totally spurious.
>
>
> Astronomy and astrology had some overlap in their beginnings, and even
> as late as Newton, some astronomers also practiced astrology although
> they were held as separate modes of thought from much earlier. Their
> common ground is in the common names of stars, constellations, and
> planets, and in the prediction of where those planets and stars can be
> seen from the Earth in the future. It goes no further.
Got that right.
Thanks for the excellent post. I hope you see further than the common man.