The Underworld: Greek, Egyptian and Sumerian
Jeff Marshall
I can't find my copy of The Oddessy right night--it's packed away. IIRC
Odysseus had to venture to Hades as part of his journey home to get guidance
from a deceased soul. He had to offer blood to attract the souls and then
was informed Hades was not exactly a nice place<g> even for those that led
upright lives. Is my memory correct? Can anyone provide a citation from
this from The Oddessy?
Also, IIRC, correctly, Heracles also traveled to the underworld. Was his
impression of it in accordance with that of Odysseus?
Was there any distinction in Greek mythology among the dead that lead a
"good" life and those that did not? How would this then compare to the
Egyptians that weighed the heart against Maat? Did all the Egyptian dead
get weighed against Maat and then venture to an after life if they passed or
was this only for some form of elect? Budge in _The Book of the Dead, page
civ, muddles my thinking<g>. In one part he speaks of the gods and the
deceased living in the underworld and later on the page speaks of the
deceased climbing a ladder to the blessed abode. Did the deceased journey
to the underworld for judgement and then travel to some other abode if they
passed judgement or did they stay in the underworld? If we follow the path
of the sun and the stars, it would seem they pass through the underworld and
then ascend to the stars into some form of celestial heaven. If so, was it
on the solar bark or via a ladder or perhaps both, depending upon the
version of the myth?
The ladder Budge mentions strikes as being very reminiscent of Jacob's
Ladder. Is this wishful thinking on Budge's part? I've seen some
commentaries that Budge isn't exactly the most reliable source.
Samuel Kramer in _The Sumerians_ says the Sumerians depicted a judgement of
the souls as well, and if they passed they would live a decent life. Then
he says, they had little confidence this would happen and saw the nether
world along the lines of the Greeks (or I guess the Greeks saw it along the
Sumerian lines<g>).
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
AOI
Jeff Marshall
http://members.tripod.com/~graalquest/
My ICQ# is 5504005 or,
Page me online: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5504005
Samuel Kramer, in
Alice Turner
different concepts of the Underworld or Kingdom of the Dead, right? Greek,
Egyptian and Sumerian? They differ.
Jeff Marshall wrote in message <6srjni$4a0$1...@clarknet.clark.net>...
>I can't find my copy of The Oddessy right night--it's packed away. IIRC
>Odysseus had to venture to Hades as part of his journey home to get
guidance
>from a deceased soul. He had to offer blood to attract the souls and then
>was informed Hades was not exactly a nice place<g> even for those that led
>upright lives. Is my memory correct? Can anyone provide a citation from
>this from The Oddessy?
You're about half right. Odysseus does not actually go to Hades. He goes to
the Grove of Persephone and sacrifices a ram and a ewe at the mouth of a
cave leading to the underworld. The shades, attracted by the smell of blood,
come forth from the cave, including the one, Tiresias, whom he must consult.
The man who informs him that Hades is "not exactly a nice place" is
Achilles, who says that he'd prefer to b a farmer's serf than to lord it
over the "exhausted dead." It's all in the 11th book of the Odyssey. In the
24th book, there is another, very poetic visit to the underworld, when the
dead suitors' souls are led there by Hermes.
>
>Also, IIRC, correctly, Heracles also traveled to the underworld. Was his
>impression of it in accordance with that of Odysseus?
He actually went twice. The first time was one of his Twelve Labors (it was
the eleventh) for King Eurystheus, which involved bringing up the dog
Cerberus; en route he also rescued his old pal Theseus who had been detained
in the Chair of Forgetfulness for four years for his part in the attempted
kidnaping of Persephone. The second time he went to rescue Alcestis, a lady
whose selfish husband, Admetus, had talked her into substituting her death
for his. The story is told in Euripedes' play of that name, but it has no
underworld scenes.
>Was there any distinction in Greek mythology among the dead that lead a
>"good" life and those that did not? How would this then compare to the
>Egyptians that weighed the heart against Maat? Did all the Egyptian dead
>get weighed against Maat and then venture to an after life if they passed
or
>was this only for some form of elect? Budge in _The Book of the Dead, page
>civ, muddles my thinking<g>. In one part he speaks of the gods and the
>deceased living in the underworld and later on the page speaks of the
>deceased climbing a ladder to the blessed abode. Did the deceased journey
>to the underworld for judgement and then travel to some other abode if they
>passed judgement or did they stay in the underworld? If we follow the path
>of the sun and the stars, it would seem they pass through the underworld
and
>then ascend to the stars into some form of celestial heaven. If so, was it
>on the solar bark or via a ladder or perhaps both, depending upon the
>version of the myth?
No, the few persons (celebrities really) being punished in Homer's Hades had
angered the gods in one way or another. Sissyphus had tried to escape his
death, Ixion to rape Hera; Tantalus served his son, stewed, to the gods; the
50 Danaids murdered their husbands with hairpins. Below, in Tartarus, the
Titans are chained (except for Tityus, who is pegged out in Hades and
Prometheus, in the Carpathian Mountains, both with vultures tearing their
livers.
Where you want to go for Greek afterdeath judgments is Plato, who, of
course, was much later. Check out the Phaedo, the Gorgias, and, for a
"near-death experience" the story of Er at the end of the Republic. You can
find all the material on line in older translations.
>
>The ladder Budge mentions strikes as being very reminiscent of Jacob's
>Ladder. Is this wishful thinking on Budge's part? I've seen some
>commentaries that Budge isn't exactly the most reliable source.
The Egyptian afterlife is altogether more complicated, and since we have
several specialists in this group, I'll leave it to them, except to comment
that, so far as I know, Budge's ideas are now considered somewhat outdated.
>Samuel Kramer in _The Sumerians_ says the Sumerians depicted a judgement of
>the souls as well, and if they passed they would live a decent life. Then
>he says, they had little confidence this would happen and saw the nether
>world along the lines of the Greeks (or I guess the Greeks saw it along the
>Sumerian lines<g>).
Enkidu's description of the afterlife (12th tablet of Gilgamesh) is not
encouraging. But there is no judgment of the dead; they are not yet divided
nor are they specially punished other than just being dead. (See above for
Achilles' comment on that; Enkidu is wholly in agreement.) There are two
Sumerian descent tales, that of Inanna to visit her sister Ereshkigal, the
Queen of the Dead, and that of Nergal, who eventually (not without trying to
escape his fate) marries Ereshkigal. Neither feature dead souls.
Hope this helps. If you have specific questions, bring 'em on.
Alice
Jeff Marshall
Alice Turner wrote in message <6srpkj$nvd$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>This is a somewhat complicated question, Jeff. You're asking about three
>different concepts of the Underworld or Kingdom of the Dead, right? Greek,
>Egyptian and Sumerian? They differ.
Alice thank you for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I
especially appreciate the insight on connecting Enkidu and Achilles views of
the underworld.
Nebet Het
As far as giving you a good answer on the Egyptian "underworld" I need some
clarification. Are you speaking of the place where human beings go when they
die, or an alternate dimension/abode of living for beings? They are two
separate things in Egyptian mythology...
Ankh udja seneb (life, prosperity and health!)
(Tamara)=| nebe...@aol.com
University of Chicago, Egyptology also: House of Netjer (www.kemet.org)
*DISCLAIMER: The above organizations are noted to give readers an idea of who I
am in "real life" off Internet. I do not speak on behalf of either.*
kenneth hutchinson
Dear Jeff,
Below is a small piece on the greek underworld wrote as part of my
page on Virgil and The Aeneid. It may be of some help
The Greek Underworld
In the earliest picture of the Greek Underworld,
from Homer, the dead go to the extreme west,
beyond the encircling ocean, where they pass a
miserable and gloomy existence as insubstantial
spirits. The Underworld is a realm ruled over by
Hades (Dis in the Aeneid) and his bride
Persephone (Proserpine in the Aeneid). Good and
wicked meet the same fate. There is a hint also of
another possibility - the Isles of the Blessed, to which
a few select heroes are destined to go.
By the sixth and fifth centuies BC, we have
evidence of a different element, associated with
mystery religions. For adherents, there was a
prospect of life after death, in the form of
punishments and rewards and a purgatorial
process by which the soul, which was distinct
from the body, could gradually attain to divine life.
We also find evidence at about this time of belief
in the transmigration of souls. There is also detail
of the lake to be crossed, Charon the ferryman, a
number of sinners with their crimes and the sunny
meadows of the blessed. The picture is given
detail by Plato, whose myths in the Phaedo and,
most elaborately, the Republic, fill out the
geography and give details of judgement,
punishment and the transmigratory cycle. Here we
recognise some of Virgil's ideas: the rivers of the
Underworld, the river of forgetfulness (Lethe), the
periods of wandering by the unburied, and the
transmigratory cyle, and the exceptionally good (in
Plato this meant philosophers) who purify
themselves of the body entirely.
Regards Ken
--
Ken Hutchinson
e mail:- ken...@idmon.demon.co.uk
web site:- http://www.idmon.demon.co.uk/xnewg.htm
Jeff Marshall
Kenneth Hutchinson wrote:
>There is a hint also of
>another possibility - the Isles of the Blessed, to which
>a few select heroes are destined to go.
Can you flesh out the Isles of the Blessed a bit more? Where were they?
What determined who got there? Were they demi-god heroes or all mortal?
Are there any sources for this?
Interesting you note the mystery religions started to change the Greek
concept of life after death. Was this a result of infusions from Egypt and
elsewhere or a natural evolution of Greek thought?
'uhane
>
> The Greek Underworld
>
> In the earliest picture of the Greek Underworld,
> from Homer, the dead go to the extreme west..
[snip]
> We also find evidence at about this time of belief
> in the transmigration of souls. There is also detail
> of the lake to be crossed, Charon the ferryman...
>The picture is given
> detail by Plato, whose myths in the Phaedo and,
> most elaborately, the Republic, fill out the
> geography...
May I also interject a question here? I'm not very
familiar with these stories other than the superficial
details, but I'm curious about the "geography"
of the journey to the Underworld, not just in Greek but in
other world myths. You mention the dead go to "the extreme west"
and I'm wondering how the living were able to make such journeys,
to cross such geographies? Are details of the from-to given?
Is that what you mean when you say Plato elaborated on this?
And, was the Underworld reached with or without the
help of guides?
I know this thread has been concerned with Greek, Egyptian &
Sumerian myths but am wondering if other world myths such
as Aboriginal, South American, etc. also have their tales
about the living who must journey to the land of the dead?
Thanks...
'uhane
"Magic comes like this...at first it barely exists..."
Sean Stewart
sti...@my-dejanews.com
"Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I can't find my copy of The Oddessy right night--it's packed away. IIRC
> Odysseus had to venture to Hades as part of his journey home to get guidance
> from a deceased soul. He had to offer blood to attract the souls and then
> was informed Hades was not exactly a nice place<g> even for those that led
> upright lives. Is my memory correct? Can anyone provide a citation from
> this from The Oddessy?
> Also, IIRC, correctly, Heracles also traveled to the underworld. Was his
> impression of it in accordance with that of Odysseus?
> Was there any distinction in Greek mythology among the dead that lead a
> "good" life and those that did not? How would this then compare to the
> Egyptians that weighed the heart against Maat? Did all the Egyptian dead
> get weighed against Maat and then venture to an after life if they passed or
> was this only for some form of elect? Budge in _The Book of the Dead, page
> civ, muddles my thinking<g>. In one part he speaks of the gods and the
> deceased living in the underworld and later on the page speaks of the
> deceased climbing a ladder to the blessed abode. Did the deceased journey
> to the underworld for judgement and then travel to some other abode if they
> passed judgement or did they stay in the underworld? If we follow the path
> of the sun and the stars, it would seem they pass through the underworld and
> then ascend to the stars into some form of celestial heaven. If so, was it
> on the solar bark or via a ladder or perhaps both, depending upon the
> version of the myth?
I'm going from memory here, so please be forgiving. The old traditional
views of Hades did not make a distinction between the experiences of the
virtuous and the bad; however, in some traditions Heracles passed through
Hades and was ascended into some higher state. He was even worshiped as a
god in a limited sense.
The later mystery traditions included the idea of a transcendent after life.
"For them death has lost its sting" is a quote that comes to mind. This was
believed by the initiates of the Demeter, Dionysus, and Orpheus cults.
I can't provide references now, as I'm not near my books, but I can later
if requested.
Jeffery
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
AsaBolverk
>familiar with these stories other than the superficial
>details, but I'm curious about the "geography"
>of the journey to the Underworld, not just in Greek but in
>other world myths.
In the Teutonic (Norse, Nordic, Germanic) Religions it is said that Hel's
domain is to the north and down for 9 days. then across a river by means of a
guarded bridge. After the bridge is a gate with a dog, Garm hiding nearby
guarding it. Some more to it, but thats a brief bit.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Fear Not the Web of a Dead Spider!
Hail Odin!
Tony
Alice Turner
'uhane wrote in message <35F2FF...@mail.aloha.net>...
>kenneth hutchinson wrote:
>
>>
>> The Greek Underworld
>>
>> In the earliest picture of the Greek Underworld,
>> from Homer, the dead go to the extreme west..
>
> [snip]
>> We also find evidence at about this time of belief
>> in the transmigration of souls. There is also detail
>> of the lake to be crossed, Charon the ferryman...
>>The picture is given
>> detail by Plato, whose myths in the Phaedo and,
>> most elaborately, the Republic, fill out the
>> geography...
>
>familiar with these stories other than the superficial
>details, but I'm curious about the "geography"
>of the journey to the Underworld, not just in Greek but in
>and I'm wondering how the living were able to make such journeys,
>to cross such geographies? Are details of the from-to given?
>Is that what you mean when you say Plato elaborated on this?
>And, was the Underworld reached with or without the
>help of guides?
I know almost nothing about Aboriginal or South American myths, but I can
help a bit with Western myth geography. There's a long tradition of the
"journey to the underworld" or "other world" by living beings. The first in
literature is that of the Sumerian goddess Inanna who goes below to visit
her sister Ereshkigal, with somewhat disastrous results. Other Sumerian
tales involve the descent of Nergal, Ereshkigal's "consort," and, in a
variation of the usual story telling of his death, the live descent of
Enkidu who, because he does not follow elementary precautions, is trapped
there. Enkidu describes the underworld, not geographically, but as a dry and
dusty, mournful place. No physical pleasure is possible--when Gilgamesh, his
longtime partner tries to embrace him, he cannot. (Same with Odysseus and
his mother.)
By the Greek period, there was more of a sense of place. Mortals could
descend by way of the Taenarus cave, near Marmari in the southern Peleponese
(that's how both Theseus and Herakles got there). The dead souls could
emerge via the cave on Persephone's magic island (that's in the Odyssey).
Rivers had been identified: Styx ("Hated") and its tributaries, Acheron
("Woe"), Phegethon ("Burning"), Cocytus ("Wailing") Aornis ("Birdless") and
Lethe ("Forgetfulness"). (Usually these were abbreviated to four, but not
always the same four.) Charon was the boatman who was paid to ferry you
across the Styx (Herakles bullied him into doing it without a fee). On the
other side you were greeted by Kerberos, the multi-headed watchdog (a
relative of Egypt's Anubis). Beyond, you could see Sissyphus rolling his
stone, Ixion on his fiery wheel, Tantalus hanging from a tree, and the
Danaids trying to carry water in sieves. You would meet monsters: dead
Medusa, the Alastor, the Erinyes or Furies, the Kers or deathspirits, the
vampirish Empusae (Greek monsters are nearly all female). You'll find heroes
and virtuous women in the Elysian Fields. In Tartarus, under Hades proper,
the Titans are imprisoned.
Plato is best about Greek underworld geography. Check the Phaedo and the
Gorgias and the end of the Republic. But the Roman poet Virgil went far
beyond Greek efforts in a graphic description of Hades--you can actually map
it out from The Aeneid. The Sybil takes Aeneas into the cave at Cumae (near
Naples). This is where the tradition of the escort, which you mention,
began. They go past the Caves of Sleep (mentioned in the Odyssey, when
Hermes takes the dead suitors past them--Hermes, unlike the Sybil, but like
Egyptian Anubis, is a proper psychopomp, or escort for the dead), across the
Styx with Charon, throw a sop to Cerberus (Roman spelling now!), pass the
hall where Minos judges, meet the women and heroes of the Elysian Field,
pass the palace of Dis (Pluto), see the fiery Phegathon, and then a
triple-walled citadel guarded by the Furies where sinners are punished
before being dropped into the abyss. At the far end of the lower world are
the false Gate of Ivory and the true Gate of Horn. Guess which one Aeneas
emerges from? Wrong! Isn't that strange?
Whew! Next up, Dante, but you'll have to read that for yourself. And, if
you're lucky, one of the Egyptologists on the list will tell you a bit about
the much more complicated, much stranger Egyptian afterlife. You'll have to
be a real strategist to survive (in whatever sense) there! Don't forget your
book of spells.
Alice
Alice Turner
Katherine Griffis wrote in message
>The most well known 'spell' representation of the BoD is, of course, the
>scene of Judgment, with the weighing of the heart of the deceased before
>Osiris, against the feather of Ma'at. It is also here in these texts
>that one first sees the "Negative Confession" ("Not have I done
>falsehood..., etc.) which required that the deceased call forth every
>one of the 42 gods of judgment by name [i.e., "O Fire Embracer who came
>forth from Kheraha, I have not robbed; O Nosey who came from Hermopolis,
>I have not been rapacious...and so on]. If the judges of the Great Hall
>of Osiris adjudged the deceased 'true of voice' (ma'a kheru), he was led
>(often by Horus himself) to the realm of the deceased, and assumed to be
>one of the Blessed Dead. If not, then the heart and being of the
>deceased were thrown to Ammut (whose name means "the devourer"), a
>demonic creature with the face of a crocodile, mane of a lion, forepart
>of a fierce feline and hindquarters of a hippopotamus, for eternal
>destruction.
O Blessed Katherine, give a hint of what happens next---it's just the
beginning of your troubles, kidz! Should you choose Egyptian, that is.
Alice (making trouble)
Katherine Griffis
wrote:
> And, if
>you're lucky, one of the Egyptologists on the list will tell you a bit about
>the much more complicated, much stranger Egyptian afterlife. You'll have to
>be a real strategist to survive (in whatever sense) there! Don't forget your
>book of spells.
For some reason, I don't find the original post to this thread, so I was
confused what Alice was referring to until I found this part of someone
else's post. Therefore, is this what we're talking about -
Egyptian-wise?
> How would this then compare to the
>> Egyptians that weighed the heart against Maat? Did all the Egyptian dead
>> get weighed against Maat and then venture to an after life if they passed or
>> was this only for some form of elect? Budge in _The Book of the Dead, page
>> civ, muddles my thinking<g>. In one part he speaks of the gods and the
>> deceased living in the underworld and later on the page speaks of the
>> deceased climbing a ladder to the blessed abode. Did the deceased journey
>> to the underworld for judgement and then travel to some other abode if they
>> passed judgement or did they stay in the underworld? If we follow the path
>> of the sun and the stars, it would seem they pass through the underworld and
>> then ascend to the stars into some form of celestial heaven. If so, was it
>> on the solar bark or via a ladder or perhaps both, depending upon the
>> version of the myth?
Assuming that we're talking about a question of what was the method of
arriving to, and desired life in, the underworld for the deceased, I
will answer like this:
Originally, it is believed that the passage to the "afterlife" was
reserved unto the King/Pharaoh alone. Thus, you see the erection of
pyramids, and the various spells of the Pyramid Texts [PT]. To this
day, much of the imagery of the Pyramid Texts is not well-understood,
but the overall impression of the texts tell us that the king is
transformed into a divine being that existed with the gods in Duat (in
the sky). The texts contain constant references to the sun-cult of Ra,
which shows their origin point as coming from Heliopolis. The
'utterances' of the PT are of three kinds: a) 'magical spells' to
prevent harm to the deceased, b) rituals involved in the royal burial
itself, concerning offerings and spells of resurrection -- these were
inscribed within the burial chamber itself. It is here that we see the
first formulaic inscriptions of the "Opening of the Mouth" ceremony, for
example. Finally, c) there were utterances that were to be read/said by
the deceased himself, to address and identify himself to the gods as an
equal.
There is some debate as to what form and method of transformation
occurred to the deceased from within the burial chamber, although
transformation into various forms of deification seems possible from the
PT. Theories of the Pyramid shape abound as well, as to its
significance - whether it is the shape of the primordial mound of
creation, a representation of the angled sun-ray of Ra, and/or a
'staircase' to enter the heavens.
However, beginning in the Middle Kingdom, the concept of life after
death for the King alone gave way to idea that all should continue in
the hereafter in some form of life, usually as a continuation of their
earthly existence. From this concept arose the Coffin Texts [CT], a
series of spells made for the deceased to follow and utter in achieving
resurrection within the Kingdom of Osiris [note the turn away from the
royal cults of Ra alone]. There were roughly 1000 of these spells
inscribed upon the coffins of 11th and 12th Dynasties. Some of these
texts were derived from the older Pyramid Texts, and some were new
constructions, which provided the antecedents to the even more
democratic (and well-known) Book of the Dead ("The Spell of Coming Forth
By Day" is the actual 'title' of the work). The CT provided spells as
'guarantors' of survival in the underworld, usually with
self-explanatory titles, such as 'Spell for Not Dying a Second Time',
which were uttered to prevent a poor judgment before Osiris and the 42
gods of the judgment of the deceased.
Shaw and Nicholson, in their _Dictionary of Ancient Egypt_ (London,
1995), for example, note that the CT presents more than one version of
the travel of the deceased to his destination: he may go with Ra in the
sky OR pass down into the underworld with Osiris. It was the latter
imagery that became the more popular one, leading to the New Kingdom
funerary beliefs as inscribed in the Spells of Coming Forth By Day (or
Book of the Dead (BD or BoD)).
Thus we now come to the texts known as the BoD, "Spell of Coming Forth
By Day", which was introduced near the end of the Second Intermediate
Period, and were derived, again, from both the Pyramid Texts and Coffin
Texts. This work consisted of about 200 spells (Chapters), and certain
small bits of texts (such as Chapter 30a - the spell of the Heart not
bearing witness against itself and Chapter 6 - the "answerer" or shabti
spell) were often inscribed upon amulets separate from the more lengthy
papyri, which were included in the coffins itself or attached to a
statue of the Sokar-Osiris, or the mummy wrappings itself.
The most well known 'spell' representation of the BoD is, of course, the
scene of Judgment, with the weighing of the heart of the deceased before
Osiris, against the feather of Ma'at. It is also here in these texts
that one first sees the "Negative Confession" ("Not have I done
falsehood..., etc.) which required that the deceased call forth every
one of the 42 gods of judgment by name [i.e., "O Fire Embracer who came
forth from Kheraha, I have not robbed; O Nosey who came from Hermopolis,
I have not been rapacious...and so on]. If the judges of the Great Hall
of Osiris adjudged the deceased 'true of voice' (ma'a kheru), he was led
(often by Horus himself) to the realm of the deceased, and assumed to be
one of the Blessed Dead. If not, then the heart and being of the
deceased were thrown to Ammut (whose name means "the devourer"), a
demonic creature with the face of a crocodile, mane of a lion, forepart
of a fierce feline and hindquarters of a hippopotamus, for eternal
destruction.
Best source of all of these books comes from Raymond O. Faulkner, who
has translated the _Pyramid Texts_, _Coffins Texts_ (3 vols) and _Book
of the Dead/Book of Coming of Coming Forth by Day_ [using the Ani
Papyrus as the most complete work], and is used as the standard in
translation by many scholars.
Faulkner's _Book of the Dead_ can be acquired via Amazon.com at
Book of the Dead [IN PRINT]:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811807673/griffisconsultin
In the case of Faulkner's _Pyramid Texts_ (OoP) and the OoP _Coffin
Texts_, these books _can_ be acquired via the Museum Bookshop in London.
If anyone is interested in making such an order, please e-mail me for
phone numbers and ordering information.
Hope this helps.
Regards --
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Member, American Research Center in Egypt
International Association of Egyptologists
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Special Studies
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html
Reading mail from me in a Usenet group does not
grant you the right to send me unsolicited commercial e-mail.
All senders of unsolicited commercial e-mail will be
reported to their postmasters as Usenet abusers.
Jeff Marshall
Thanks Katherine for the notes!
Katherine Griffis wrote:
>
>Originally, it is believed that the passage to the "afterlife" was
>reserved unto the King/Pharaoh alone
So what did everyone else think happened to them after death?
>However, beginning in the Middle Kingdom, the concept of life after
>death for the King alone gave way to idea that all should continue in
>the hereafter in some form of life, usually as a continuation of their
>earthly existence.
What brought about this change? Can you give an approximate date?
>
>Shaw and Nicholson, in their _Dictionary of Ancient Egypt_ (London,
>1995), for example, note that the CT presents more than one version of
>the travel of the deceased to his destination: he may go with Ra in the
>sky OR pass down into the underworld with Osiris. It was the latter
>imagery that became the more popular one, leading to the New Kingdom
>funerary beliefs as inscribed in the Spells of Coming Forth By Day (or
>Book of the Dead (BD or BoD)).
What would be the primary difference between the two options? Was there a
discriminator between the two options or are they simply two different
myths? Is Ra one area of the sky and Osiris another area?
>The most well known 'spell' representation of the BoD is, of course, the
>scene of Judgment, with the weighing of the heart of the deceased before
>Osiris, against the feather of Ma'at.
Was everyone judged like this or just a selected group?
>Hope this helps.
Sure did!
Katherine Griffis
wrote, on alt.mythology:
>Greetings!
>
>Thanks Katherine for the notes!
You're welcome.
>
>Katherine Griffis wrote:
>
>>
>>Originally, it is believed that the passage to the "afterlife" was
>>reserved unto the King/Pharaoh alone
>
>So what did everyone else think happened to them after death?
Interesting question. We don't have texts for the regular populace's
beliefs, and yet, we know, from their burial remains that, noble or not,
they MUST have believed in some sort of 'life after death' as you see
from the burials of the predynastic periods onwards that personal items,
food, etc. were buried with them for use in the 'next world'. However,
in what format or belief system they thought they would achieve this,
we're not sure as there are no written texts. So, anything I could tell
you here would be speculative. If you want to have a resource of that
material, let me know and I will post it later.
>>However, beginning in the Middle Kingdom, the concept of life after
>>death for the King alone gave way to idea that all should continue in
>>the hereafter in some form of life, usually as a continuation of their
>>earthly existence.
>
>What brought about this change? Can you give an approximate date?
Date: Beginning about 2055 BCE, which was the beginning of the Middle
Kingdom.
Change in the belief system appears to have come about as a response to
the breakdown of the Royal cult of the Old Kingdom, and the loss of
confidence in the king as the _only_ being capable of divine rebirth
after death/increase in self-actualization of personal worth. (Such
loss of confidence has both cultural and political rationales behind it,
I think). So, with the fall of the "Followers of Horus" (which was a
way of designating the Old Kingdom belief system), came about the more
democratic emphasis upon Osiris and a massive judgment of the dead by
that divinity. Shaw and Nicholson (cited before), said this about the
change in the culture as reflected in the treatment of resurrection as
an aspect of death:
"...However, with the collapse of the Old Kingdom came greater
self-reliance and with it a process which is sometimes described by
Egyptologists as 'democratization of the afterlife' *. This meant that
everyone could have access to the afterlife, without being associated
directly with the royal cult. These new aspirations of the deceased are
set out in a collection of spells painted in cursive hieropglyphs inside
the wooden coffin..." [ENTRY: "Coffin Texts", p. 69, _Dictionary of
Ancient Egypt_]
*"...The 'democratization of the afterlife' is a phrase used to describe
the process of usurping of the pharaoh's funerary prerogatives by
private individuals, particularly in terms of the identification of the
deceased with the god Osiris. The term 'democratization' is, however, to
some extent a misnomer, and it has been argued that the usurping of
royal formulae and rituals does not necessarily suggest an erosion in
the belief in the kingship. Instead, it is suggested that the act of
imitation might even imply a strengthening belief in the effectiveness
of the kingship..." [ENTRY: "Democratization of the Afterlife", p. 83,
_op. cit_.]
>
>>
>>Shaw and Nicholson, in their _Dictionary of Ancient Egypt_ (London,
>>1995), for example, note that the CT presents more than one version of
>>the travel of the deceased to his destination: he may go with Ra in the
>>sky OR pass down into the underworld with Osiris. It was the latter
>>imagery that became the more popular one, leading to the New Kingdom
>>funerary beliefs as inscribed in the Spells of Coming Forth By Day (or
>>Book of the Dead (BD or BoD)).
>
>What would be the primary difference between the two options? Was there a
>discriminator between the two options or are they simply two different
>myths? Is Ra one area of the sky and Osiris another area?
That appears to be the primary difference. The Egyptians, never ones to
allow any belief to be considered 'contradictory' (that is a product of
so-called "western thinking" here, I think), most likely considered each
path to be viable options open to the deceased at any time. 'So above,
so below', and that sort of mindset: dualities of thought appeared to be
part and parcel of Egyptian belief until the _very late_ periods.
>>The most well known 'spell' representation of the BoD is, of course, the
>>scene of Judgment, with the weighing of the heart of the deceased before
>>Osiris, against the feather of Ma'at.
>
>Was everyone judged like this or just a selected group?
Everyone was judged, AFAICS: it was only the subject who knew the proper
responses to the various gates, gatekeepers, genii, demons, gods, etc.
AND whose heart was 'true of voice' that actually appears to have gotten
through the Judgment trial unscathed, however.
Best --
'uhane
> Whew! Next up, Dante, but you'll have to read that for yourself. And, if
> you're lucky, one of the Egyptologists on the list will tell you a bit about
> the much more complicated, much stranger Egyptian afterlife.
I've read a bit about this in the Marie-Louise von Franz - "On Dreams & Death"
but other than that, not much else...so many books, so little time! Thanks
for all the hints though -- I'll try to take a look at Plato. I'm really
interested in the geographical facet of the underworld journey...
> You'll have to
> be a real strategist to survive (in whatever sense) there! Don't forget your
> book of spells.
>
Thanks, Alice -- I'll be sure not to forget my book of spells -- and
perhaps I'd better pack a sack lunch as well!
Aloha, 'uhane
(next I'll have to find out about the geographical location
of the Hawaiian underworld -- all I know about it is it's called "Po" or
darkness and I believe is somewhere under the sea, but don't hold me to that.)
"A hero looks death in the face, real death, not just the image of death."
Wittgenstein
Ronin
The Aeniad, so it's Romanized Greek myth at best..
When Herakles visited the underworld (and raised 5 kinds of hell) he brought
Cerberus up with him (his 12th labour if I remember correctly), but his
impression was similar to Orpheus'- the most detailed accounts being from
Orpheus and Persephone's myths, I believe. One tradition of Greek thought
had especially brave souls going to the Isles of the Blessed where Cronos
and the banished Titans lived, but this is blatently contradictory of other
major sources, so...most of us end up int the endless grey halls, caves, and
garden, drink from Lethe (to forget our past life) and flit about aimlessly,
or some say get reborn after a time (almost as cheerful as the Babylonian
underworld..)
Alice Turner
Ronin wrote in message ...
>That wasn't Odysseus (the blood offering to the shades), it was Aeneus in
>The Aeniad, so it's Romanized Greek myth at best..
I must correct you. No blood in the Aeneid, a bloodless visit guided by the
Sybil. Here from the lovely new Fagles Odyssey, starting at line 22, Book
11.
There, gaining that point, we beached our craft
and herding out the sheep, we picked our way
by the Ocean's bans until we gained the place
that Circe made our goal.
Here at the spot
Perimedes and Eurylochus held the victims fast,
and I, drawing my sharp sword from beside my hip,
dug a trench of about a forearms delpth and lenght
and around it poured libations out to all the dead
[skip to line 39]
I took the victims, over the trench I cut their throats
and the dark blood flowed in--and up out of Erebus they came
flocking toward me now the ghosts of the dead and gone...
The drained bodies then are burnt as a sacrifice. The point is that these
shambling ghosts *cannot speak* untill they have sipped the nourishing
blood. Odysseus must actually hold the first-comers off with his sword until
Tireseus, whom he needs to speak to, arrives. (He lets Elpenor have a sip,
first.)
>When Herakles visited the underworld (and raised 5 kinds of hell) he
brought
>Cerberus up with him (his 12th labour if I remember correctly), but his
>impression was similar to Orpheus'- the most detailed accounts being from
>Orpheus and Persephone's myths, I believe. One tradition of Greek thought
>had especially brave souls going to the Isles of the Blessed where Cronos
>and the banished Titans lived, but this is blatently contradictory of other
>major sources, so...most of us end up int the endless grey halls, caves,
and
>garden, drink from Lethe (to forget our past life) and flit about
aimlessly,
>or some say get reborn after a time (almost as cheerful as the Babylonian
>underworld..)
Well, that's not quite correct either. The Titans (minus Prometheus and
Tityus) are nearly always consigned to Tartarus. The Elysian Fields weren't
quite as bad as the Babylonian underworld (after all, Achilles, who
complains in the Odyssey was a known discontent, and might have been happier
in Valhalla where he could get a good fight every day). And Lethe, according
to Plato at least, is where you drink from just before your next incarnation
so that you won't remember your past life.
Jeff Marshall
Again, thanks for the notes.
As I understand it, the new king was reborn as Horus and the dead king
became Osiris. Was this imagery left only to the royalty or did the common
people also think they was reborn with the gods. My readings so far say no,
it was restricted to the king. The king represented the linkage between the
gods and humanity. That's why your comment:
Katherine Griffis wrote in message
<35fa3053....@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:44:57 -0400, "Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net>
>
>Change in the belief system appears to have come about as a response to
>the breakdown of the Royal cult of the Old Kingdom, and the loss of
>confidence in the king as the _only_ being capable of divine rebirth
>after death/increase in self-actualization of personal worth.
I find especially interesting. The civilization seems to have been set up
on a divine order if you will, with the king as the link between heaven and
earth. When this perceived linkage broke, it then threw the entire society
into turmoil I gather. I think we're experiencing the same phenomenon
today, albeit in a different format.
Alice Turner
Alice Turner wrote in message <6t7as8$6up$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>
>Ronin wrote in message ...
>>That wasn't Odysseus (the blood offering to the shades), it was Aeneus in
>>The Aeniad, so it's Romanized Greek myth at best..
>
>I must correct you. No blood in the Aeneid, a bloodless visit guided by the
>Sybil. Here from the lovely new Fagles Odyssey, starting at line 22, Book
>11.
But, I should have added, there was the usual sacrifice in the
Aeneid---which of course did include blood. The blood isn't the point here
though, as it is in the Odyssey.
Alice
Kim Burkard
>Kenneth Hutchinson wrote:
>>There is a hint also of
>>another possibility - the Isles of the Blessed, to which
>>a few select heroes are destined to go.
>
>Can you flesh out the Isles of the Blessed a bit more? Where were they?
>What determined who got there? Were they demi-god heroes or all mortal?
>Are there any sources for this?
>
>Interesting you note the mystery religions started to change the Greek
>concept of life after death. Was this a result of infusions from Egypt and
>elsewhere or a natural evolution of Greek thought?
I don't know about Greek thought, but the mention of Blessed Isles
does bring to mind the Otherworld domains of Celtic myth and lore
like Tir na Nog. These Otherworld locations could be under sidhe
mounds, on magical islands, and so on.
If you don't like the crappy afterlife of the Greeks or Sumerians,
be sure to check out the Celts. To quote from Miranda Green's
_Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend_:
"There are common characteristics for the Otherworld: it
is essentially a happy place, the source of all wisdom,
where there is peace, harmony, but also fighting amongst
heroes. There is perpetual feasting, sport, beautiful
women, enchanted music, it is ageless and without disease,
in fact a magical, idealized mirror image of the human world."
For sources on the Celts, be sure to browse my mythological booklist.
The Celts are one of the biggest sections I have. (Egyptian and Greek are
other very large sections and of interest to this thread. The URL is:
http://www.servtech.com/public/greenman/mythBooklist.html
Enjoy!
-kim
---
Kimberly Burkard | _ Everything I needed to know in life, I
Eastman Kodak Company| _____C .._. learned from my ferret:
Rochester, New York | ____/ \___/ Frolic and dance for joy often, have
bur...@kodak.com |<____/\_---\_\ no fear or worries, and enjoy life.
Kim Burkard
>>I'm not very
>>familiar with these stories other than the superficial
>>details, but I'm curious about the "geography"
>>of the journey to the Underworld, not just in Greek but in
>>other world myths.
>
>domain is to the north and down for 9 days. then across a river by means of a
>guarded bridge. After the bridge is a gate with a dog, Garm hiding nearby
>guarding it. Some more to it, but thats a brief bit.
While speaking of the Norse, don't forget that Valhalla was the 'hall
of the dead'. It was there that chosen heroes, who were doomed to die,
were brought by Odin's handmaids, the Valkyries, to reside. Here the
Einherjer (the doomed heroes) feasted, drank, and fought - any wounds
suffered during the fighting would of course be magically repaired.
These heroes were brought to Valhalla to make up a fighting force that
would fight and die once again at Ragnarok.
I'm sure the Norse experts can flesh this out more for you.
Kim Burkard
<snippage>
>
>Best source of all of these books comes from Raymond O. Faulkner, who
>has translated the _Pyramid Texts_, _Coffins Texts_ (3 vols) and _Book
>of the Dead/Book of Coming of Coming Forth by Day_ [using the Ani
>Papyrus as the most complete work], and is used as the standard in
>translation by many scholars.
>
>Faulkner's _Book of the Dead_ can be acquired via Amazon.com at
>
>Book of the Dead [IN PRINT]:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811807673/griffisconsultin
>
>In the case of Faulkner's _Pyramid Texts_ (OoP) and the OoP _Coffin
>Texts_, these books _can_ be acquired via the Museum Bookshop in London.
>If anyone is interested in making such an order, please e-mail me for
>phone numbers and ordering information.
If you interested in the ancient Egyptian BoD, I agree with Katherine
in checking out Raymond Faulkner's edition. Besides being a respected
translation of it, the edition I have is most beautifully illustrated
with the Papyrus of Ani. Even if you don't read the text, the
illustrations are quite a treat for anyone interested in ancient
Egyptian lore.
The particulars I have for the book, including the isbn are:
_The Egyptian Book of the Dead: The Book of Going Forth by
Day_ trans. by Dr. Raymond Faulkner, Chronicle Books,
San Francisco, 1994, isbn 0-8118-0767-3.
With a list price for the soft cover version of $24.95 (US), I think
it is quite a bargin! :)
Enjoy!
Jeff Marshall
Kim Burkard wrote in message <6t8u6k$ee8$1...@news.kodak.com>...
>If you don't like the crappy afterlife of the Greeks or Sumerians,
>be sure to check out the Celts. To quote from Miranda Green's
>_Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend_:
>
> "There are common characteristics for the Otherworld: it
> is essentially a happy place, the source of all wisdom,
> where there is peace, harmony, but also fighting amongst
> heroes. There is perpetual feasting, sport, beautiful
> women, enchanted music, it is ageless and without disease,
> in fact a magical, idealized mirror image of the human world."
Is this also known as the summerlands and lie to the west?
If you don't like one culture check out another. That's a very interesting
issue and part of what I'm trying to drive at eventually. How does a
culture's mythology of death and the afterlife influence how they live? Can
I change my afterlife by changing my culture?
Kim Burkard
>>If you don't like the crappy afterlife of the Greeks or Sumerians,
>>be sure to check out the Celts. To quote from Miranda Green's
>>_Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend_:
>>
>> "There are common characteristics for the Otherworld: it
>> is essentially a happy place, the source of all wisdom,
>> where there is peace, harmony, but also fighting amongst
>> heroes. There is perpetual feasting, sport, beautiful
>> women, enchanted music, it is ageless and without disease,
>> in fact a magical, idealized mirror image of the human world."
>
>Is this also known as the summerlands and lie to the west?
I must admit to really not being that familar with the term
"Summerlands". I've run across the term in new-age/pagan type
sources, but I've not seen it in myth/legend sources. That
doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that I haven't seen it.
I really don't know if the term is referring to the same concept
or place.
As far as the Otherworld, places like Tir na Nog were islands and
lay to the west. But sidhe hills, also Otherworld places, could be
but a short walk away and not necessarily lying to the west.
>If you don't like one culture check out another. That's a very interesting
>issue and part of what I'm trying to drive at eventually. How does a
>culture's mythology of death and the afterlife influence how they live?
Clearly a person's concept of the afterlife that awaits them will
effect how they live their life. The many Christian traditions that
exist today and in the past are testiment to that. Not to mention
the massive preparations the ancient Egyptians went through in order
for their afterlives to be happy. The Norse had the idea of Valhalla.
If a warrior proved himself on the battlefield, he might have a glorious
afterlife in Valhalla. One can't be horribly concerned about one's own
mortality if one is to be glorious on the battlefield. Clearly the
reincarnation ideas of Hindus and Buddhists have effected their lives.
Everything from what they eat to their day-to-day behavior could be
effected. Etc...........
Each religion or mythology, which the whole afterlife idea would be
part of, would inspire a different set of behaviors from those that
follow that faith. Those behaviors would have to be consistant with
the religious and world views of those individuals.
>Can I change my afterlife by changing my culture?
An interesting question, but one which nobody living knows the
ultimate answer to. Of course, we all have the opportunity to find
it out for ourselves someday. ;)
Jeff Marshall
Kim Burkard wrote in message <6t92us$fmt$1...@news.kodak.com>...
>I must admit to really not being that familar with the term
>"Summerlands". I've run across the term in new-age/pagan type
>sources, but I've not seen it in myth/legend sources. That
>doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that I haven't seen it.
>I really don't know if the term is referring to the same concept
>or place.
I, too, have only come across in newage and neopagan literature. I really
have no idea if this is a proper mythical term or an newage term. That is
what I was trying to ascertain. I've learned to be pretty skeptical of some
of the sources.
Katherine Griffis
>In article 6842...@news.mindspring.com, gri...@mindspring.com (Katherine Griffis) writes:
><snippage>
>>
>>Best source of all of these books comes from Raymond O. Faulkner, who
>>has translated the _Pyramid Texts_, _Coffins Texts_ (3 vols) and _Book
>>of the Dead/Book of Coming of Coming Forth by Day_ [using the Ani
>>Papyrus as the most complete work], and is used as the standard in
>>translation by many scholars.
>>
>>Faulkner's _Book of the Dead_ can be acquired via Amazon.com at
>>
>>Book of the Dead [IN PRINT]:
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811807673/griffisconsultin
>>
>>In the case of Faulkner's _Pyramid Texts_ (OoP) and the OoP _Coffin
>>Texts_, these books _can_ be acquired via the Museum Bookshop in London.
>>If anyone is interested in making such an order, please e-mail me for
>>phone numbers and ordering information.
>
>
>If you interested in the ancient Egyptian BoD, I agree with Katherine
>in checking out Raymond Faulkner's edition. Besides being a respected
>translation of it, the edition I have is most beautifully illustrated
>with the Papyrus of Ani. Even if you don't read the text, the
>illustrations are quite a treat for anyone interested in ancient
>Egyptian lore.
>
>The particulars I have for the book, including the isbn are:
>
> _The Egyptian Book of the Dead: The Book of Going Forth by
> Day_ trans. by Dr. Raymond Faulkner, Chronicle Books,
> San Francisco, 1994, isbn 0-8118-0767-3.
>
>With a list price for the soft cover version of $24.95 (US), I think
>it is quite a bargin! :)
To follow-up Kim's comment, the URL reference to Amazon.com above, in my
post did note that the prce was reduced to $19.95 (20% reduction), if
any of you are the bargain-hunting kind of book folks as I am. ;)
Katherine
Katherine Griffis
wrote:
>Hi Katherine,
>
>Again, thanks for the notes.
>
>As I understand it, the new king was reborn as Horus and the dead king
>became Osiris. Was this imagery left only to the royalty or did the common
>people also think they was reborn with the gods. My readings so far say no,
>it was restricted to the king. The king represented the linkage between the
>gods and humanity. That's why your comment:
I think several things happened that caused the "democratization of the
afterlife", and political/cultural disenchantment with the kingship from
the OK ---> MK ----> NK as a "divinity on earth" appear to have been
only one facet.
I wrote:
>>Change in the belief system appears to have come about as a response to
>>the breakdown of the Royal cult of the Old Kingdom, and the loss of
>>confidence in the king as the _only_ being capable of divine rebirth
>>after death/increase in self-actualization of personal worth.
>
>I find especially interesting. The civilization seems to have been set up
>on a divine order if you will, with the king as the link between heaven and
>earth. When this perceived linkage broke, it then threw the entire society
>into turmoil I gather. I think we're experiencing the same phenomenon
>today, albeit in a different format.
Perhaps. ;)
However, there was always something of a dichotomy to the Egyptians
about the idea of a "divine kingship," I think, and that dichotomy of
belief is what eventually gave way to the more democratic afterlife for
all.
This is reposted from an earlier discussion here in alt.mythology on the
concept of "divine kingship", and seems pertinent to your question.
It's from a thread called, "Hatshepsut's Divine Birth", and which I
posted as Message-ID: <35c36dc5....@news.mindspring.com>,
07/31/98:
---------------begin repost-------------
The king is not a divinity on earth. This is a often confused concept
in Egyptology on the issue of kingship, well-known and referred to in
many general history and Egyptological texts on the subject.
Here's some of the thoughts from at least two of the more well-respected
authorities in the field of Egyptian religion, and particularly
concerning with the "divine" kinship concept, Erik Hornung and Vincent
Arieh Tobin:
First, Hornung:
"...Among the range of persons and things that can be 'divine', listed
in the _Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache_ (Wb II, 363-364), only
living beings are absent. Sacred animals, sacred objects, and the
blessed dead are often 'divine', but here the terminology preserves the
distance between those living on earth and the gods. Even the
reigning king, whose _titulary_ makes him a 'perfect god' and who
receives innumerable divine epithets, is qualified by the adjective
'divine' only in rare and exceptional cases. (1) (2)" (emphasis _ _
mine)
<...>
"But despite all this, the Egyptian king is not a deity. In the book
referred to above [_De la divinité du pharoan_(Cahiers de la Sociêté
Asiatique 15, Paris 1960] Georges Posener showed how greatly the
king's qualities and capacities differ from, and are inferior to,
those of the gods -- even if one concedes that the very human traits
of Posener's "roi des contes" can also be found in the gods in myths
and that Posener measures the king against the view of the gods which
is perhaps too idealized. Siegfried Morenz presented the
subordination of the king to the gods as a logical process that lasted
millennia, which he saw as the _Rise of the Transcendent God_, (the
title of one of his books). It has also been possible to add the
picture by identifying subtle features of the terminology that defines
the king's divinity and its limits. (3) Even for the Egyptians this
divinity of the king was a problem, which they tried to solve with
even more formulas and definitions. They knew that there was no
simple identity between the king and the god Horus or between the king
and the sun god. As early as the Fourth Dynasty the famous
diorite-gneiss statue of Khephren shows the king, whose titulary
states that he is "Horus in the palace," under the protection of the
sky god Horus, while the same king is the "son of Re" and so
subordinate to the sun god."
_Conceptions of God: The One and the Many_, Erik Hornung, New York,
1982. p. 64; 141-142.
Notes:
(1) Hornung's note: E.g. _Medinet Habu, VIII, pl. 636 II 1-2, in an
unusually informal scene with the king.
(2) Hornung notes Hatshepsut's "divine quality" thusly:
"...The queen regnant shows herself to be 'divine' through her divine
aroma and golden radiance, both of which emanate from the gods.
Although clear examples such as this are rare, it seems to be this
special emanation, which can be perceived by humans, that makes human
beings, animals, or sacred objects into 'divine' entities.
Divine-ness is therefore not a matter of a definition that is fixed by
an abstract statement of dogma, but an emanation that can be perceived
directly and is produced not only by the gods but also by their images
and manifestations." (ibid., p. 64)
(3) Hornung's note: Cf the reviews of H. Kees, OLZ 57 (1962)
467-78;J.G. Griffiths, JEA 49 (1963), 189-92.
----------------
Now to Tobin:
"Mythically speaking and expressed in the cult there can be little
doubt that the king was regarded as a divinity. His very presence was
the effective means of maintaining Ma'at and even mediating to the
land the blessing of the great gods. _Such however, was and remained
a mythic expression._ For the Egyptian mind the power of the divine
was in some way mysterious within the person of the Pharaoh. He was
in fact the 'good god' (nTr nfr), but he was not the 'Great God' (nTr
aA). Such a title was reserved only for the gods who resided in the
heavens and who were not seen by man, only apprehended in their
manifestations in nature or their revelations in the cultic ritual.
The king, himself a mythic expression of the divinity of the realm of
the beyond, was not himself one of the great gods of Egypt. He was a
symbol of their presence; he was a "token of the efficacious power of
the creator god in the world." (1) In himself, however, the monarch
was a mortal human being, and even one who after his death might well
hope to join the gods. Nevertheless, even after death the Pharaoh
could never hope to become the equal of Amun-Ra, Ra-Horakhtey [sic] or
Ptah. Not even Thutmose III or Ramses II, despite their much vaunted
achievements would ever be a full member of the Egyptian pantheon.
The king in the Pyramid Texts was called the son of Nut and the son of
Isis, (2) but such was only in virtue of his mythic function. He
himself was, and would remain, a mortal human being until the day of
his death. It was only then he could hope to be deified and to become
united with the immortality of the divine life of the universe. After
the end of the Old Kingdom, however, such a boon was available to all
men, and was not only the prerogative of the monarch and of those on
whom he was gracious enough to bestow it. During his earthly life the
king was as mortal as the lowliest of his subjects. Not even the
mythic symbols of the Egyptian religious system could change that
fact." (emphasis _ _ mine)
_Theological Principles of Egyptian Religion_, Vincent Arieh Tobin,
New York, 1989, pp.96-97.
Tobin's notes:
(1) J. Baines, "The 'Greatest God' or Category of God", GM 67
(1983):21.
(2) E. Hornung, _Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt_, (1983):142.
========
So, in the case of Hatshepsut, it was not to so much "prove" her
divinity, but to prove that she was the _choice of the gods OVER
Thutmose III_ who was the "heir apparent", because he had been Thutmose
II's son by the concubine Isis. Hatshepsut was the _direct_ descendant
of Thutmose I, and from that she interpreted her bloodline to be
(possibly) more "direct" in lineage with the other "Sons of the Sun"
than Thutmose III. As I said earlier, this is one theory.
Another theory runs alone the line of political expediency: while queens
had existed ruling alone before (Mer-neith and Neith-hotep in the Old
Kingdom, Sobekneferu in the Middle Kingdom, Ah-hotep I holding the
throne while Seqenre-Tao, Kamose, and Ahmose were at war, and so on),
they were all regents _holding_ the throne for a male heir to take over.
In times of peace, one could do this fairly easily, and the Egyptian
society saw the situation as within the traditions.
However, at the time of Hatshepsut's usurpation, it is thought that
times were NOT peaceful: the Hyksos were still being routed out of Egypt
(the skirmishes lasted until near the end of Thutmose III's reign, for
example), and a firm leader on the throne was required. It is thought
that when Hatshepsut took on a co-regency with Thutmose III, he was
fairly young, and unable to rule alone. Since most of the ANE cultures
did not hold women in any form of regard, and Thutmose may have been too
young to create his own decisions, she needed some 'pull' to solidify
her position -- in foreign lands and at home.
Therefore, she may have created the divine birth story to give herself
leverage with the foreign nations who had familiarity with the idea of
"divine" kings -- in their own culture and from their knowledge of
Egypt. She went a step further: she claimed the god had sired her
himself (in the guise of her father). This was an unusual twist to the
'divine king' concept since it was normal _upon coronation_ that a king
was seen as divine (heir apparents DID die before becoming king, after
all ;) ). She merely claimed to be divine all along (see Hornung's
comments, supra), the choice of the gods over the so-called "heir to the
throne", and claimed that the gods had chosen to make her 'king', or the
_nsw bit_, Living Horus.
-------------end repost---------
I hope this gives you some additional information, Jeff.
Best regards --
Alice Turner
Kate Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <6t9642$879$1...@clarknet.clark.net>, dated Thu, 10 Sep 1998,
>Jeff Marshall <mag...@flash.net> wrote
Summerlands is new to me too, except for a 1970s novel called -Some
Summerlands- by Jane Gaskell, which, since it was a fantasy and she is a
Brit might refer back to somethingorother. Possibly another modern fantasy
with a sort of paradise.
But what about the Celtic Isle of Women? Or is it Land of Women? Isn't that
a paradise, or at least an Other World? (What I mean is that Venusburg,
another Land of Women, was an Other World but not exactly a paradise.)
Alice
'uhane
> Can
> I change my afterlife by changing my culture?
>
Why wait until the afterlife? Any significant changes
you make should affect everything you experience right NOW!
(Hey, why not *change*!)
'uhane
"I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before,
Or else I am awake for the first time and all before has
been a mean sleep." Whitman
Kate Brown
Jeff Marshall <mag...@flash.net> wrote
>Greetings!
>
>Kim Burkard wrote in message <6t92us$fmt$1...@news.kodak.com>...
>>"Summerlands". I've run across the term in new-age/pagan type
>>sources, but I've not seen it in myth/legend sources. That
>>doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that I haven't seen it.
>>I really don't know if the term is referring to the same concept
>>or place.
>
>
>I, too, have only come across in newage and neopagan literature. I really
>have no idea if this is a proper mythical term or an newage term. That is
>what I was trying to ascertain. I've learned to be pretty skeptical of some
>of the sources.
I believe there is reference to a 'Region of the Summer Stars' in Welsh
mythology, but I don't have my books with me and can't check....
perhaps something to do with Taliesin?
--
Kate B
London
Don Redmond
<na...@cockaigne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Well there is a poetry cycle by the Williams (whose first name escapes me
at the moment) of the Inklings group (think Tolkien, etc.) that deals with
Taliesin and I think it's called "Region of the Summer Stars." I don't know
much Williams made up. This might be what you're thinking about.
Don
Alice Turner
Don Redmond wrote in message ...
>Well there is a poetry cycle by the Williams (whose first name escapes me
>at the moment) of the Inklings group (think Tolkien, etc.) that deals with
>Taliesin and I think it's called "Region of the Summer Stars." I don't know
>much Williams made up. This might be what you're thinking about.
That's Charles Williams. I haven't read it, but I've read a fair amount of
Williams, and I can say, fairly accurately I hope, that his interests in
fiction (and poetry, I'm sure) lay in reconciling fervent Christianity,
including Christian myth (the grail, etc.) with other esoterica that
interested him: the Tarot cards, the works of Swedenborg, oh, I've forgotten
now. An organic sort of movement is from Narnia to Williams. At a certain
point in one's life, the late teens, say, Williams can be heady stuff!
Alice
Kate Brown
Alice Turner <a...@interport.net> wrote
Yes, it was Charles Williams, and I actually have a copy of the Region
of the Summer Stars - but I'd thought I'd come across the phrase
elsewhere, possibly in a translation of a Taliesin poem.
I don't think he's just for young adults (though I discovered him at
university, and you're right, it was heady stuff) - I reread the Place
of the Lion lately - a bit incoherent at times, but tremendously
powerful images. And the image of the City in 'All Hallows Eve' and
'Descent into Hell' is still worth contemplating.
And to drag this digression almost back on thread (!), this idea of the
heavenly Jerusalem, the heavenly eternal City immanent in the present
world, is astonishingly effective, and for me one of the more convincing
metaphors for the afterlife. Does anybody know where he might have got
this from? It's clearly derived in part from the City in Revelation,
but is also interwoven as a deeper reality into our own world, perhaps
accessible before death in certain circumstances. The City seems to be
the sum of human achievement, and one perceives it as a community of
those who made it; the journey after death into this perception is
described in 'All Hallows Eve', and seems to be (I simplify) a process
of coming to terms with one's true nature.
It might have been a subject for discussion amongst the inklings, the
City, as CSLewis also uses the metaphor, in a slightly different way, in
'The Great Divorce', where Hell is a dingy suburb where the bus never
comes. I often think of that (but in case of offending others, I won't
say where...)
--
Kate B
London
Alice Turner
Kate Brown wrote in message ...
>And to drag this digression almost back on thread (!), this idea of the
>heavenly Jerusalem, the heavenly eternal City immanent in the present
>world, is astonishingly effective, and for me one of the more convincing
>metaphors for the afterlife. Does anybody know where he might have got
>this from? It's clearly derived in part from the City in Revelation,
>but is also interwoven as a deeper reality into our own world, perhaps
>accessible before death in certain circumstances. The City seems to be
>the sum of human achievement, and one perceives it as a community of
>those who made it; the journey after death into this perception is
>described in 'All Hallows Eve', and seems to be (I simplify) a process
>of coming to terms with one's true nature.
>
>It might have been a subject for discussion amongst the inklings, the
>City, as CSLewis also uses the metaphor, in a slightly different way, in
>'The Great Divorce', where Hell is a dingy suburb where the bus never
>comes. I often think of that (but in case of offending others, I won't
>say where...)
It's from one of the HUGE key figures in all Christian thought and dogma,
St. Augustine (354-430), second only to Paul in influence in the formation
of the early church. Two famous books: the -Confessions- which tells his own
story, his youth and conversion to Christianity (from Manichaeism), and -The
City of God-, which, oddly enough, leans toward predestination. At any rate,
it was written after the fall of Rome, and was somewhat inspired to refute
pagan claims that the gods willed Rome to fall because it had strayed from
them. Augustine's image of the heavenly city was a big influence on medieval
(and Renaissance) painters, also on later writers. Heaven being ineffable,
it's useful to have a metaphor. As you say yourself.
Alice
Kate Brown
Alice Turner <a...@interport.net> wrote
<re the City of God>
>It's from one of the HUGE key figures in all Christian thought and dogma,
>St. Augustine (354-430),
dear Alice, I am on the floor with shame... of course it was Augustine.
I think I was wondering if it goes back any further? Are there any
other ideas - in other cultures - of the Afterlife that involve cities?
I mean, as opposed to natural paradises. The nearest I can get to is
the image of the castle made of butter in Irish myth. But I may be
missing something terribly obvious.
--
Kate B
London
Jeff Marshall
Kate Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <6tbplu$633$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, dated Fri, 11 Sep 1998,
>Alice Turner <a...@interport.net> wrote
>
><re the City of God>
>of course it was Augustine.
>I think I was wondering if it goes back any further? Are there any
>other ideas - in other cultures - of the Afterlife that involve cities?
>I mean, as opposed to natural paradises. The nearest I can get to is
>the image of the castle made of butter in Irish myth. But I may be
>missing something terribly obvious.
Not sure about cities of the dead, but certainly sacred cities. John
Michell, in _City of Revelation_, discusses this quite a bit. He weaves in
sacred geometry and gematria in the discussion and compares, among others,
Stonehenge, Augustine's City of God, Plato's city in _Timaeus_, and the city
in Revelations.
kenneth hutchinson
>Greetings!
>Interesting you note the mystery religions started to change the Greek
>concept of life after death. Was this a result of infusions from Egypt and
>elsewhere or a natural evolution of Greek thought?
Greetings James,
AFAIK the mystery religions was a home grown cult and centered around
the myth of Demeter's recovery of her daughter Persephone from the
underworld. The annual culmination were the Eleusinian Mysteries, a
public festival celebrated towards the end of summer. Whilst the
festival had some similarities to the Panathenaia it was unusual in so
far as it was exclusive to the cult and emphasised firmly personal
revelation and salvation.
Regards,
Ken
--
Ken Hutchinson
e mail:- ken...@idmon.demon.co.uk
web site:- http://www.idmon.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Alice Turner
kenneth hutchinson wrote in message
<905624189.9584.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>"Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net> wrote:
>>>Interesting you note the mystery religions started to change the Greek
>>concept of life after death. Was this a result of infusions from Egypt
and
>>elsewhere or a natural evolution of Greek thought?
>
>AFAIK the mystery religions was a home grown cult and centered around
>the myth of Demeter's recovery of her daughter Persephone from the
>underworld. The annual culmination were the Eleusinian Mysteries, a
>public festival celebrated towards the end of summer. Whilst the
>festival had some similarities to the Panathenaia it was unusual in so
>far as it was exclusive to the cult and emphasised firmly personal
>revelation and salvation.
Yes, that was one mystery cult, but there were others. Isis had a hugely
popular cult, also Cybele, also Mithra, Attis, later Serapis...other members
of the group can surely supply more.
Alice
Jayson Kelly
>
> kenneth hutchinson wrote in message
> <905624189.9584.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> >"Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net> wrote:
[...]
> >AFAIK the mystery religions was a home grown cult and centered around
> >the myth of Demeter's recovery of her daughter Persephone from the
> >underworld. The annual culmination were the Eleusinian Mysteries, a
> >public festival celebrated towards the end of summer. Whilst the
> >festival had some similarities to the Panathenaia it was unusual in so
> >far as it was exclusive to the cult and emphasised firmly personal
> >revelation and salvation.
>
> Yes, that was one mystery cult, but there were others. Isis had a hugely
> popular cult, also Cybele, also Mithra, Attis, later Serapis...other members
> of the group can surely supply more.
>
> Alice
Samothrace was the other important "Greek" site, although its roots are
actually pre Hellenic. Other sites included Phlya in Attica, the cults
of Dionysus, and perhaps also the Oracle at Delphi and Delos.
Samothrace and Eleusis however stand out alone as being the centres of
initiation into the Ancient Mysteries. The actual "experience" of the
initiated was personal, and therefore not cultic in nature.
Regards
JK