Yes History No. 1: Yes Pre-History (symbols corrected)
Christopher J Currie
coalescence of the group that would record _Yes_ the following year.
Chris Squire and Peter Banks had been working together since 1966-67,
first in The Syn and subsequently with Mabel Greer's Toy Shop (which
no-one has yet claimed responsibility for naming, even 35 years on).
Squire met up with Jon Anderson at a small club called La Chasse in May
1968, and it became clear in the course of a single conversation that the
two musicians had similar interests. They were especially intrigued by
the possibility of bringing a harmony-based approach to the burgeoning
progressive scene (which didn't yet mean "progressive rock"), applying the
influence of The Beatles, The Byrds, Simon & Garfunkel, etc. to a
completely new musical context. A credible case could be made that
Yes-as-we-know-it was born out of this one conversation.
Anderson and Squire began writing the next day, and Jon soon found
himself as the new MGTS lead singer. The following months saw Tony Kaye
and Bill Bruford join the group, which had by this time changed its name.
Yes played its first gig at the East Mersey Youth Camp on 4 August 1968;
they debuted at the Marquee the following night.
Most readers will know how the story proceeds from there. The band
played an important gig at Blaise's in September 1968 -- subbing for Sly &
The Family Stone at the last minute -- and were the opening act for
Cream's farewell show. An appearance on the John Peel show introduced Yes
to an even wider audience, and by mid-1969 they were recording their first
album for Atlantic Records.
We'll come back to that in a bit. Before we begin our consideration
of the "official Yes legacy', however, it might be worthwhile to take a
closer look at the band's pre-history. All of the original Yes members
(save perhaps Bruford) had made professional studio recordings prior to
the release of _Yes_. Most of these recordings were fairly obscure at the
time, and have remained that way ever since. But some have made their way
into circulation among the diehard fanbase.
My own "Yes pre-history" collection includes materials featuring
Anderson, Banks and Squire (note that I'm only considering the original
Yes members here). It does not include anything featuring Tony Kaye,
although some such recordings do exist. Kaye had been involved in a
number of bands before joining Yes, including The Federals (who issued
some singles on Parlophone in 1964-1965), Winston's Fumbs (who recorded
for Decca & RCA in 1967), and Bitter Sweet (which was Kaye's band just
before he joined Yes; future Attractions bassist Bruce Thomas was also a
member; I'm not sure if they released anything). If there's anyone
reading this who owns some pre-Yes Kaye material, I wouldn't be averse to
receiving a copy. For the time being, however, I have no opinions to
share.
I don't have any pre-Yes recordings featuring Bill Bruford either --
and, as I've mentioned above, I'm not sure that any such recordings even
exist. Of the original Yes members, Bruford appears to have had the least
professional experience. He gigged with Savoy Brown for three shows
before being fired (allegedly for his jazz leanings); beyond this, I don't
know the names of any bands that he worked with pre-Yes. If someone can
inform me of something I've missed, I'd obviously be grateful.
But, to return to what I *do* have ...
There are at least three pre-Yes singles featuring Jon Anderson. The
first was recorded by the Warriors; the other two were solo records.
The history of the Warriors is a bit convoluted, and some of the
"official" statements that have been made about this group are inaccurate.
Pete Frame's "Yes Family Tree", for instance, informs the reader that the
group existed from 1963 to 1967, and featured the following lineup:
Jon Anderson, vocals
David Foster, bass
Brian Chapman, guitar
Ian Wallace, drums
This information is incomplete at best. Although the complete history of
the group is still mired in obscurity, it certainly existed for longer
than four years. David Foster's biography (which isn't necessarily the
most reliable thing ever written, but seems fairly solid as regards the
early years) indicates that the Warriors were already an established
presence in the Accrington area by the time he joined in 1959 - albeit
without any of the members who would take part in their first recording
sessions five years later. What's more, Jon Anderson was not the band's
lead vocalist when he first joined. The Warriors originally sought out
Jon's older brother Tony as their lead singer -- and he agreed to join
only on condition that Jon be taken on as a harmony vocalist. The other
band members weren't overly thrilled with having the younger sibling
thrust upon them, but agreed to the terms anyway -- Tony Anderson remained
the group's lead singer until his departure in 1965, at which time Jon
took over. (As to "Brian Chapman, guitar", he seems not to have existed.
Foster's bio indicates that one Brian Chatton became the group's
keyboardist in 1965.)
The Warriors recorded a single for Decca on 26-27 February 1964
(though some sources say 1965). The lineup was as follows:
Tony Anderson: lead vocals
Jon Anderson: harmony vocals
Mike Brereton: guitar
Rod Hill: rhythm guitar
David Foster: bass
Ian Wallace: drums
This was Ian Wallace's first performance with the group, Derek Thornhill
having departed the drummer's seat shortly before.
The song that the group recorded on this occasion was "You Came
Along", written by the professional songwriting duo of Mason & Reed.
David Foster wrote the b-side, "Don't Make Me Blue".
It's ... um ... not very good. Specifically, it's pretty rudimentary
"British invasion" stuff, the sort of thing that every other Beatles
knock-off group was doing in early 1964. On the hack-written "You Came
Along", the band shuffles through a fairly standard exercise in
The-Beatles-doing-The-Everleys: Tony does his best to sound American,
Brereton (I assume) gets in a competent, Harrison-esque solo, and Wallace
seems inspired by Ringo's "bricklayer" style of drumming (to use Albert
Goldman's surprisingly apt description). This derivative manner of
playing makes the track halfway tolerable (some of the time), but also
emphasizes the fact that there's really not much here. Call it about **,
and even that's a bit generous.
The b-side is equally dismal. Foster has referred to "Don't
Make Me Blue" as "absolute rubbish", and he's basically on target. Tony
comes off sounding incredibly silly, affecting an unconvincing "I'm a
tough guy even though I'm singing these dopey love lines" pose (seriously,
we're in "I'll stay close to you/I'll always be true" territory here -
it's just embarrassing). Strangely enough, the band seems to be sort-of
motivated, though why they chose to exert themselves on this thing isn't
entirely clear. Brereton actually takes a solo of sorts in the middle of
this 2:03 song, without doing anything particularly interesting (I suppose
it breaks up the tedium, though). On balance, a not-entirely-horrible
performance can't outweigh a dreadful song, so call it **.
David Foster claims that the single sold 40,000 copies in three days,
though I can't help but be a tad skeptical. I don't know that the
Warriors ever released anything else. Foster was apparently planning to
make an early concert tape available a few years ago, but this never came
to pass. There's also a TV performance of the band playing "Don't Make Me
Blue" out there, somewhere, but I've never seen it.
Yes fans will probably be disappointed with this rarity -- and not
just because of the low quality of the music. The only reason why most
fans might want to hear the record is for Jon, and he's not very high in
the mix. This makes the record an interesting curiosity, a snapshot of a
particular moment in time, but not the sort of thing you'd want to listen
to for fun. (If you're still curious, though, note that "You Came Along"
was reissued on the Pop Inside The 60s, Vol. 1 CD, and "Don't Make Me
Blue" on a disc called The Beat Scene.)
The Warriors finally broke up in 1967, after years of unsuccessful
gigging. Ian Wallace would later gain some notoriety in the progressive
fanbase as the drummer on King Crimson's Islands, and Foster would achieve
the same via Badger. Tony Anderson left music to become an Anglican
minister. As to the other band members who weren't Jon Anderson, I have
no idea what happened to them.
And things didn't exactly improve for Jon, in the short term …
In 1967, someone -- perhaps Jack Barrie, perhaps Tony Stratton-Smith
-- decided that it would be a good idea for Jon to record a couple of
Parlophone singles, under the name Hans Christian Anderson. For whatever
reason, Jon went along with the plan, and the singles were duly released
in early 1968.
I have absolutely no idea who the studio musicians are on these
records. Frankly, I don't think it particularly matters.
The HCA singles are generally regarded as an embarrassment for Jon,
and this assessment is basically correct. Two of the songs are schmaltzy
ballads, another is an uptempo-but-equally-dismal pop number, and the
fourth is an ill-considered narrative of the Mississippi delta (if you can
believe that …). Jon sings with all the passion of a studio neophyte
surrounded by managers and engineers staring at their watches, and the
production is (the term is not an overstatement) beyond appalling. It's
pretty obvious that Jon's faceless overseers were trying to cash in on the
freak success of Keith West's "Excerpt From A Teenage Opera", although
nothing here even comes up to that level. By whatever measurement, the
records were a failure. Jon himself has noted that he "started to
mistrust producers and the business, in general" after this experience.
And yet … the strange thing is that ONE of these sides actually shows
a bit of promise, almost in spite of itself. Perhaps the very
amateurishness of the project allowed for an unplanned burst of creativity
on one of the a-sides -- a rare moment of studio experimentation which
looked forward (intentionally or not) to Jon's vocal tricks on the
_Fragile_ album. This isn't to say that it's *good*, but it's at least an
interesting failure - which is enough to make it the best of Jon's pre-Yes
recordings.
So what is this diamond in the rough? None other than
"(Autobiography Of A) Mississippi Hobo", the least promising title of the
lot. This song was the a-side of the second single, and it's easily the
most memorable side here. The track begins with what sounds like a
mellotron drone, an untethered sonic force which appears again in a
distorted form later in the track. Jon's voice is similarly manipulated,
with some "hah!" asides suggesting the vocal mixes on "Roundabout" and "We
Have Heaven". This distortion is sheer gimmickry, of course, but it's
still the most distinguishing thing here -- and it's a nice break from the
monotony of everything else here.
Mind you, "Mississippi Hobo" has more than its share of draggy
qualities: the harsh voice that Jon assumes for his depiction of the
Mississippi hobo doesn't sound entirely natural; the producers' attempt at
a folk-soul rave-up comes off as a bit patronizing; and it's is really a
*biography*, not an autobiography. On balance, though, I'm still willing
to give it a ** 1/2.
Now, the rest …
The first HCA a-side was a cover of The Association's "Never My
Love". The track starts off rather unpromisingly with a "polite" keyboard
intro, inappropriately coupled with a clump-clump bass line. From the
moment Jon starts singing, it's pretty clear that we're into "variety show
music" territory -- mawkish love lyrics, tacky string arrangements, and so
forth. Jon's was capable of singing in a distinctively high range even at
this early stage, but his inflections are woefully off-balance. And the
production … horns come out of nowhere, some backing gospel vocalists
appear at one point, and the entire thing sounds like it was done by
someone who had never seen a control board before. Taken as a joke, the
track might have a certain ironic merit -- but I can't imagine that this
was the intention. Imagine Tom Jones on helium produced by Phil Spector
on acid and you'll pretty much have the song. * 1/2.
"Never My Love"'s b-side is "All Of The Time", an ultra-lame
anglo-pop take on the blues. There's more distortion here (akin to Phil
Collins's "Mama" voice), but it doesn't come off as especially
interesting. And the demented production is in full force again -- a
xylophone takes over the lead melody line, the backing vocalists make
another incongruous appearance, the drums suggest a marching band (as they
did on the previous track), and some absurd bongos show up at the end.
The sole redeeming factor: nothing this bad could have been accidental. *
1/2.
The b-side of the aforementioned second single, "Mississippi Hobo",
is "Sonata Of Love", easily the worst of the four HCA tracks. The horns
suggest _Days Of Future Passed_, but the lyrics, unfortunately, are much
closer to the late-period Moodies. (Has Jon *EVER* done a good,
straightforward love song? Has anyone? If so, this clearly isn't it.)
It's not sung very well, the marching band drums sound *incredibly* silly,
and the trumpet voluntary at the very end comes off as mere pastiche.
Jon's voice almost breaks at one point, as it does on "Clear Days" (which
doesn't make the song any better, of course, but is the best I can do for
trivia on this horrible thing). *, easily.
Mercifully, the records were commercial failures, and Jon was able to
walk away with his dignity more-or-less intact. He wouldn't record
anything this bad again until 1980.
After the collapse of the HCA project, Jon spent a bit of time with
the Gurvitz brothers in The Gun (even opening for The Who at one stage),
but nothing much came of this alliance. To my knowledge, he didn't
release anything else before joining Yes.
So … it can be said without fear of contradiction that there's very
little in Jon's pre-Yes recordings to suggest the Great Creative Leap that
was just around the corner. Unfortunately, there *is* some evidence of
Jon's willingness to get involved in dubious side projects -- a problem
which has only been exacerbated in recent years. From the Warriors and
HCA to Yes, there stands a great chasm -- thankfully.
To find a direct link to Yes from its pre-history, one has to turn
instead to the works of Chris Squire and Peter Banks. Even here, the path
is a bit circuitous.
The Syn were founded in 1965, as a merger of two other groups - The
Selfs (which featured Chris Squire, Andrew Jackman and Martyn Adelman) and
High Court (featuring Steve Nardelli and John Painter). Jackman wasn't
quite an original member, but re-united with Squire & Adelman shortly
after the group's formation. Painter left after two months, soon replaced
by Peter Banks. The drumming situation was a tad more complicated (see
below).
These recordings are not works of genius (by any stretch of the
imagination), but they show a band with potential, still getting its
bearings. Squire wasn't yet at the top of his game, but there are some
traces of the sound that would later help to define a genre.
The Syn's recording lineup for the first single was as follows:
Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
John Painter: guitar on "Created By Clive"
Peter Banks: guitar on "Grounded"
Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
Andrew Jackman: organ
Gunnar Hakanarsson: drums
The band's first a-side was "Created By Clive", a quirky, jaunty pop
number with a ridiculous mock-aristocratic accent courtesy of Nardelli.
Why the aristocratic accent, you ask? Because Nardelli is complaining
about an ex's decision to sell herself into the world of high-class
modeling, killing off her own persona for a quick turn in the spotlight.
I'm not sure if the song qualifies as *good*, but it's a step away from
the norm. Jackman gets a good Hammond part, and the chorus is
entertaining in its way. ** 1/2. (Btw, the song's chorus is "Created by
Clive's publicity drive/ Here's got to shake you if you want to survive".
I've long thought these lines would have been an apt description of the
ABWH project, though I have my doubts as to whether or not Squire was
capable of remembering them by the late 1980s.)
The b-side was a track called "Grounded", which doesn't show The Syn
in the best possible light. There's a strong element of early
psychedelic-rock here, but the track never really coalesces into anything
special. As to the lyrics … the track begins this way: "I ain't got
nobody to take out at night/I got a lot of money, but that just doesn't
seem to help my plight" (he's grounded, you see). I guess this was meant
to be a teenage anthem for the new British middle-class, but it doesn't
quite make it. The Hammond line isn't bad, though, and there's some
suggestion of Squire's distinctive sound on bass and backing vocals. **
1/2.
The Syn's second single was better. The lineup for *this* recording
was:
Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
Peter Banks: guitar
Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
Andrew Jackman: organ
Chris Allen: drums on "14 Hour Technicolour Dream"
Ray Steele: drums on "Flowerman"
The Syn hit their peak (to date, at least) with their second a-side.
"14 Hour Technicolour Dream" shows the band finally *doing something* with
their skills. The opening vocal harmonies show some harmonic depth (and
also come off sounding like the intro to "Rhythm Of Love", odd as that
sounds), the drumming is good, Squire gets in a chugging bassline, and
Banks comes into his own with a grating lead part towards the end. The
song is, of course, about the famed psychedelic show in London, and is
firmly grounded in psych-pop. ***. (Incidentally, Zappa fans should
note that the reference to "Suzy Creamcheese" is NOT an allusion to the
heroine of FZ's early albums -- the phrase was in common currency before
Zappa.)
"Flowerman", the b-side, starts off with another obvious psych-rock
intro -- evidence of a Who/Kinks influence, taken to the next level. The
track is about … well, a flowerman who looks after his garden, basically.
There's more evidence of Squire's developing style, and Jackman again
takes a prominent role. Some trombones appear in the middle of the song…
for what reason I can't say. The track isn't anything special, but it's
good enough for singing along with, if you're into that sort of thing.
Call it ** 1/2, but not in a bad way. ;)
The Syn was a good apprenticeship for Squire & Banks, giving them the
opportunity to hone their skills while moving towards something better.
The singles aren't quite classics, but are perfectly listenable -- unlike
Jon's early singles, you might actually want to hear these for fun. Syn
aficionados should note that all four tracks appear on Peter Banks's _Can
I Play You Something?_ compilation, along with a demo version of
"Flowerman". When I acquire a copy of this album, I'll share my comments
…
Sadly, Andrew Jackman died on 15 August 2003. Following this, Yes
fans were shocked to discover that Banks, Nardelli and Adelman were
planning a reunion, and a CD release featuring both old and new material.
It seems that this element of Yes pre-history may yet become more than a
footnote.
After the collapse of The Syn, Squire & Banks took a bit of time away
from one another, and then re-emerged at the helm of the
bewilderingly-named Mabel Greer's Toy Shop. This band would eventually
mutate into Yes (see above), but it had an identity of its own before
Anderson, Kaye & Bruford joined. They never released anything during
their brief existence, but their early sound is documented on a three-song
BBC Session from 1968.
The lineup for this session was:
Chris Squire: bass, vocals
Pete Banks: guitar
Clive Bailey: second guitar, probably vocals as well
[see below]: drums
At least three of the songs recorded at this session were broadcast
on 3 April 1968.
To put it succinctly: these are the goods. If you want to hear Yes's
pre-history at its best, this is where you should turn. The band was on
top of its game for this session -- and, even without Jon Anderson, some
of the basic elements of the Yes sound were already there. This band
might have been able to make an impact on the British rock scene even
without the series of lineup changes that subsequently occurred -- it
probably wouldn't have been as good as Yes, but this lineup of MGTS could
have recorded an underground classic (along the lines of _Titus Groan_,
for instance) before vanishing. I suppose this sounds like faint praise
in comparison to what actually DID follow, but my point is that the band
can be judged on its own merits, and not just as a proto-Yes.
Before going any further, however, I should address the matter of the
drummer. I have absolutely no idea who plays the kit on these tracks --
and the Pete Frame family tree is no help. Frame's family tree in The
Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Rock (6th edition) lists the drummer
as one "Tub Thumper" -- the Yesyears tree, by contrast, identifies him as
"John Cymbal". It's pretty clear that both of these are pseudonyms -- in
fact, they might just be Frame's way of saying "I really don't know who
the drummer of MGTS was and I'm going to create a cute running joke
instead". Some other sources identify the drummer as "Tub Thumper", but
I'm not sure I can trust these. If anyone knows the identity of this
mystery figure, please let me know.
Right, then … on to the songs …
The MGTS version of "Beyond And Before" isn't too far removed from
the Yes version. The main difference is that the contrast of moods
doesn't show up here -- it's a straight-ahead, full-force tempo, rather
than the start-and-stop approach of the version that most of us are
familiar with. The lyrics are identical on both versions, however, and if
the music is a little bit more "punchy", it still follows the same byways
as the Yes recording. "B&B" starts off with the familiar "signal" guitar
line (which isn't really elaborate, but so what?). The bass line appears
very prominently thereafter, perhaps setting the stage from Squire's
future (actually, this might be Squire's first really good recorded
performance). The Squire/Bailey vocal duo isn't quite as expressive as
Anderson/Squire, though I suppose this isn't really too surprising;
there's still a nice, austere quality to their harmonies, in any case.
Banks gets in a soaring guitar lead, though it's a tad buried in the mix;
the drums aren't especially audible; Bailey, seemingly, takes a brief lead
toward the end. Listening to the interplay between Banks and Bailey makes
me wonder how Yes might've sounded with two guitarists who were interested
in working together [caveat added to prevent silly references to
Howe/Rabin and Howe/Sherwood]. On balance, the Yes version is a tad
better -- but this one is still quite good. Call it ****.
(Btw, I can't help but wonder how many other songs in the rock idiom
portray winter in better terms than summer. Squire and Bailey sing their
memories of "casting a spell out of ice" while lamenting that "the
summer's too long". Already, the band was taking a step away from
throwaway summer love lyrics -- another step towards the full-blown
progressive rock.)
"Images Of You And Me" is … actually rather similar to "Beyond And
Before", in its earlier moments -- the chugging bass line in pretty
similar, and the "it seems like the end of my life" melody line makes an
encore appearance. After this, the song shifts into an open-ended
psychedelic-ballad; the lyrics aren't anything notable, but this is
forgivable given the on-target vocal parts. There's a weird combination
of British austerity and blues-psychedelia here -- Squire's bass part
during the "chorus" is almost a slowed-down walking bass line, and Banks
gets in some interesting wah-wah guitar lines. British pop was coming
into its own at the start of the progressive age, and this track nicely
captures the innocence and complexity of that moment. Our mysterious
drummer is, once again, not especially notable. *** 1/2.
The final track, "Jeanetta" starts out with a droney bass line, and
unfolds into another psych-pop number, swathed in British romanticism.
The song's protagonist stands alone upon a hill, lamenting a lost figure.
The lyrics indicate that "Jeanetta" has died recently, leaving our
protagonist with "the agony of loving you" (a separate, unspecified
figure). All the tensions of a high Victorian novel in four minutes?
Perhaps not, but still pretty impressive. The drums are a bit more
aggressive (ie. noticeable) on this track, and the work as a whole is
incredibly stark. Another *** 1/2 track, very melodic, and better than
the melodramatic theme might suggest.
There was a fourth track recorded at the session, entitled "Electric
Funeral". Said track is available on Peter Bank's _Can I Play You
Something?_, along with some other rare material. I should really get a
copy of this album.
With Jon Anderson's arrival in MGTS, their conceptual efforts were
taken up to the next level -- the rock band as orchestra. The entry of
Kaye and Bruford (and the concurrent departure of Bailey) helped to
consolidate this process. And so begins Yes history proper.
[To be continued]
*
As always, any corrections/additions are welcome.
Christopher
R. Totale
<8c...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>As always, any corrections/additions are welcome.
Christopher-
Were JA's solo singles actually released as by "Hans Christian
Anderson"? I have All of the Time/Never My Love as released in the
USA (on Tower), and it's just Hans Christian. I was under the
impression that the UK Parlophone issues were also credited to Hans C.
A big Yes fan friend of mine thought the mere idea of JA singing
"Never My Love" was so precious that he didn't even want to hear the
record ;).
Paul Goodwin
"R. Totale" <slang...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fr34vvc00pac45bvj...@4ax.com...
> >
> A big Yes fan friend of mine thought the mere idea of JA singing
> "Never My Love" was so precious that he didn't even want to hear the
> record ;).
>
Too bad, for what it is & who it is, it's pretty good.
--
Paul
Christopher J Currie
> On 30 Dec 2003 22:02:52 GMT, Christopher J Currie
> <8c...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>>As always, any corrections/additions are welcome.
> Christopher-
> Were JA's solo singles actually released as by "Hans Christian
> Anderson"? I have All of the Time/Never My Love as released in the
> USA (on Tower), and it's just Hans Christian. I was under the
> impression that the UK Parlophone issues were also credited to Hans C.
You know, that's an interesting point ...
I was originally under the impression that the singles were released as
"Hans Christian"; more recently, I thought the consensus had settled on
"Hans Christian Anderson". When doing research for my "Pre-History" post,
I found several references to *both*.
I decided on HCA more from habit than anything else -- if you can confirm
that "Hans Christian" is the correct credit, I'd have no difficulty
changing it.
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
> "R. Totale" <slang...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> A big Yes fan friend of mine thought the mere idea of JA singing
>> "Never My Love" was so precious that he didn't even want to hear the
>> record ;).
> Too bad, for what it is & who it is, it's pretty good.
Which leads to an interesting semantic question: if "what it is" is bad,
can something which succeeds at being "what it is" be considered good?
(My bet is no.)
;)
Christopher
JT
Thank you...very enjoyable read. Wish I had a copy of the Syn
sessions, sounds intriguing. Please continue on with your history of
YES.
Jim
Loeslin
snip
> [To be continued]
> *
> As always, any corrections/additions are welcome.
>
> Christopher
Dear Christopher,
Please let me congratulate you. You have done a great job on this
effort. I hope that you will accept my following notes and comments as
nothing more than constructive input. I have posted quite a bit of my
content previously here in AMY for reference but am responding
directly here for the most part. The older posts may have more details
should you want (re: Warriors recordings, Bruford bands, SYN, MGTS and
other miscellany relative to this).
>>>Chris Squire and Peter Banks had been working together since
1966-67, first in The Syn and subsequently with Mabel Greer's Toy Shop
(which no-one has yet claimed responsibility for naming, even 35 years
on).>>>
MGTS had been around since at least Sept. 1967 during which Syn was
still a going and viable concern. It was Clive Bailey's baby. Squire
first, and then Banks joined up with them later... - Banks left to
join Marquee headliners Neat Change for a few weeks and then came back
out of boredom. Chris joined MGTS to fill the Bass spot by Feb. 1968
and shortly after recruited Mr. Banks in late Feb>Early March 1968.
Line-up below...
>>>Yes played its first gig at the East Mersey Youth Camp on 4 August
1968>>>
Actually it was August 3 at East "Mersea" Youth Camp (Banks and
Bruford both independently confirm this in their schedules/diaries).
>>>they debuted at the Marquee the following night.>>>
Actually Two nights later on the 5th (same sources).
>>>Bitter Sweet (which was Kaye's band just before he joined Yes)>>>
The line-up was as follows:
Bitter Sweet: Tim Steele (G, V), Bruce Thomas (B) ->Bodast, John
"Willie" Wilson (D) ->Syd Barrett, Quiver etc., Tony Kaye (K) - they
were managed by Black Hill Enterprises (Pink Floyd, Bodast ....)
Just prior to this was the following band
Yellow Passion Loaf (ca. July, 1967): Alex Dmochowski (B), Tony Kaye
(K) (was in Syn for one gig w/Ray Stock), Ray Stock (D) (see Syn
line-up), Tim Steele (G, V)
Then came
The Victor Brox Blues Band: Victor Brox (Vox/K), Tony Kaye (K) likely
Alex Dmochowski (B), others
>>>If there's anyone reading this who owns some pre-Yes Kaye
material, I wouldn't be averse to
receiving a copy. For the time being, however, I have no opinions to
share.>>>
Tony Selvidge (Kaye) recorded an entire album with The Federals in
Roumania in 1966 - the first rock band to record at the state-owned
recording studios. There was some interesting cold war West / East
history in this... The said to have remained there at the special
invite from Caucescu (sp. ?) for cross cultural purposes.
"Real Crazy Apartment" / "Snow White" by Winston's Fumbs (the renamed
Jimmy Winston & His Reflections) is an interesting and collectable
single.
Jimmy Winston & His Reflections - later renamed Winston's Fumbs: Jimmy
Winston (Langwith) (G, V), Alex Paris (Dmochowski ?) (B), Terry Slade
(D) replaced by Ray Stock, Tony Kay(e) (O), Johnny Weider (G)
->Family, Keith West etc.
>>>Bruford appears to have had the least professional experience. He
gigged with Savoy Brown for three shows before being fired (allegedly
for his jazz leanings); beyond this, I don't know the names of any
bands that he worked with pre-Yes. If someone can inform me of
something I've missed, I'd obviously be grateful.>>>
The Breed (aka The Original Breed Bluesband) (1964 - 1968): Ray
Bennett (B) of "Eyes Of Blue", "Babylon", "Gun" and "Flash", Bill
Bruford (Perc.), Mike Freeman (S) later Flash's road manager and
various jam sessions w/Peter Banks and Chris Welch, Stuart Murray (G),
Dave Molyneux (G), Peter Skinner (D) - played songs like "Smokestack
Lightning"
The Noise (1968): Bill Bruford (D), Mike Tomich (B) later in Mike
Heron's Band and rehearsed w/Empire, <?>(G), <?>(V) - toured (ha-ha)
Italy w/The Pink Floyd - Bruford had to hitch-hike home drum kit on
his back.
>>>The history of the Warriors is a bit convoluted, and some of the
"official" statements that have been made about this group are
inaccurate. Pete Frame's "Yes Family Tree", for instance, informs the
reader that the group existed from 1963 to 1967, and featured the
following lineup:
Jon Anderson, vocals
David Foster, bass
Brian Chapman, guitar
Ian Wallace, drums
took over. (As to "Brian Chapman, guitar", he seems not to have
existed.
Foster's bio indicates that one Brian Chatton became the group's
keyboardist in 1965.)>>>
Brian Chatton is correct - Brian did sessions w/David Foster solo
w/Tony Kaye, Jon Anderson's Uzelot project, 1995 solo album w/Tony
Kaye etc.. Chapman was a carrot in someone's ear.
>>>The song that the group recorded on this occasion was "You Came
Along", written by the professional songwriting duo of Mason & Reed.
David Foster wrote the b-side, "Don't Make Me Blue".>>>
w/arranger Mike Leander on Piano - see my earlier post.
>>>I don't know that the Warriors ever released anything else.>>>
Refer to my earlier post about this matter.
>>>The Warriors finally broke up in 1967, .....As to the other band
members who weren't Jon Anderson, I have no idea what happened to
them.>>>
Sleepy (1968):
David Foster (B,V), Rod Hill (G,V), Ian Wallace (D), Geoff Peach
(Sax), John Redfern (K), later adding Boz Burrell (G, V?), Jon
Anderson (V) stood in with the band but was not an "official" member.
They were given Lennon's "Across The Universe" by Lennon before the
Beatles' release and pissed it away as it wasn't jazz. See my earlier
post about this.
>>>And things didn't exactly improve for Jon, in the short term ...>>>
He (Jo(h)n) joined "The Gentle Party" (band from Bolton Lancs. near
Jo(h)n's home based in Germany - as a number of bands ripped off by
shady management) and then a locally big Dutch group "Les Cruches" -
they released singles and an LP (w/o Jo(h)n). One look at the album
cover and, well ....
>>>In 1967, someone -- perhaps Jack Barrie, perhaps Tony
Stratton-Smith decided that it would be a good idea for Jon to record
a couple of Parlophone singles, under the name Hans Christian
Anderson.>>>
These were recorded for former Syn manager Paul Korda who wrote and
produced most of the Hans Christian and also issued some w/Chris
Andrews and I believe also Mr. Bowie during the same period.
Hans Christian (the Anderson was either an in-joke or implied but
never on the labels)
There is an interesting German single with both a-sides ....
"Never My Love" 02:18 % "(The Autobiography Of) Mississippi Hobo"
02:30 Odeon 0 23 842 (DE) 1968.
>>>After the collapse of the HCA project, Jon spent a bit of time with
the Gurvitz brothers in The Gun (even opening for The Who at one
stage), but nothing much came of this alliance. To my knowledge, he
didn't release anything else before joining Yes.
Like a lot of starving musicians do, he was briefly living on their
mother Mrs. Gurvitz's couch... and played a gig or maybe two. Ray
Bennett later of Flash also claims to have been in Gun but Paul
Gurvitz apparently knows nothing about this. Adrian was a founder
member and Paul came along later so maybe it was before his
involvement but ???
>>>The Syn were founded in 1965, as a merger of two other groups - The
Selfs (which featured Chris Squire, Andrew Jackman and Martyn Adelman)
and High Court (featuring Steve Nardelli and John Painter). Jackman
wasn't quite an original member, but re-united with Squire & Adelman
shortly after the group's formation. Painter left after two months,
soon replaced by Peter Banks. The drumming situation was a tad more
complicated (see below).>>>
Where did this information come from ;-) BTW it is again "Syn" (not
The Syn)
>>>The Syn's recording lineup for the first single was as follows:
Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
John Painter: guitar on "Created By Clive"
Peter Banks: guitar on "Grounded"
Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
Andrew Jackman: organ
Gunnar Hakanarsson: drums>>>
I'm not so sure about Hakanarsson's involvement on either of these
especially "Grounded".
>>>Jackman gets a good Hammond part>>>
Actually it is his red and black Farfisa Mini-Compact (I have the
Grey/Green one).
>>>Clive's publicity drive/ Here's got to shake you if you want to
survive".>>>
s/b "He's got to shape you""
>>>The b-side was a track called "Grounded", which doesn't show The
Syn
in the best possible light.>>>
I disagree and actually this and 14 Hr. Technicolour Dream are the
best glimpse that we currently have at their true live sound based on
Banks and Jackman's input to me.
>>>There's a strong element of early psychedelic-rock here>>>
They were decidedly un-psychadelic - see my earlier posts re: Syn
>>>The Hammond line isn't bad, though, and there's some suggestion of
Squire's distinctive sound on bass and backing vocals.>>>
Again this was Andrew's Farfisa Mini-Compact.
>>>The Syn's second single was better. The lineup for *this*
recording
was:
Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
Peter Banks: guitar
Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
Andrew Jackman: organ
Chris Allen: drums on "14 Hour Technicolour Dream"
Ray Steele: drums on "Flowerman"
The Syn hit their peak (to date, at least) with their second
a-side. "14 Hour Technicolour Dream" shows the band finally *doing
something* with their skills.>>>
Actually, Grounded and 14 Hr. ... may well have been recorded at the
same session which was apart from "Created By Clive" and the later
"Flowerman" - the event was 4.29.67 the single 6.23.67. I don't think
Ray Steele ever recorded with them. He only rehearsed (did not get
offered the money he wanted) and this was probably before Chris Allen
joined.
>>>Banks comes into his own with a grating lead part towards the end.
The song is, of course, about the famed psychedelic show in London,
and is firmly grounded in psych-pop.
***. (Incidentally, Zappa fans should note that the reference to
"Suzy Creamcheese" is NOT an allusion to the heroine of FZ's early
albums -- the phrase was in common currency before
Zappa.)>>>
She "Suzy" is actually said to have actually been any number of young
ladies (not just one) who would appear and dance at various live
events.
>>>"Flowerman", the b-side, starts off with another obvious psych-rock
intro ->>>
"lifted directly from the children show "Bill And Ben - The Flowerpot
Men and another poke at psychedelia. Again see my earlier post about
this.
>>>After the collapse of The Syn, Squire & Banks took a bit of time
away from one another, and then re-emerged at the helm of the
bewilderingly-named Mabel Greer's Toy Shop.>>>
Well, not at the helm - again it was Clive Bailey's baby. They just
gravitated in a non-psych direction to a more mod and US West Coast
(Moby Grape, Grateful Dead, Association) direction - not overlooking
the contribution of Vanilla Fudge & Rascals (decidedly not West Coast)
who came from a good label (Eleanor Rigby, Midnight Hour, It's Love).
>>>This band would eventually mutate into Yes (see above), but it had
an identity of its own before Anderson, Kaye & Bruford joined. They
never released anything during their brief existence, but their early
sound is documented on a three-song BBC Session from 1968.
The lineup for this session was:
Chris Squire: bass, vocals
Pete Banks: guitar
Clive Bailey: second guitar, probably vocals as well
[see below]: drums>>>
Clive Bailey - on the verge of out-of-control FUZZ guitar and lead vox
- line-up below.
>>>Before going any further, however, I should address the matter of
the drummer. ... "Tub Thumper" -- the Yesyears tree, by contrast,
identifies him as "John Cymbal". It's pretty clear that both of these
are pseudonyms -- in fact, they might just be Frame's way of saying "I
really don't know who the drummer of MGTS was and I'm going to create
a cute running joke instead". Some other sources identify the drummer
as "Tub Thumper", but I'm not sure I can trust these. If anyone knows
the identity of this mystery figure, please let me know.>>>
Drummer was Bob Hagger a.k.a. Alexander Belmont. The other names are
made-up and were never pseudonyms used. Someone made them up to
cleverly fill in the blanks. Bill Bruford was however "Tubs" Bruford
and there are photos of him in his shirt from "The Yes Album" period
with him wearing it.
Mabel Greer's Toyshop (Sept. 1968 to around June 1968):
Clive Bailey (G, V), Paul Rutledge (B) replaced by Chris Squire (B,
V), Peter Banks (later added), Alexander Belmont (Bob Hagger) (D).
Played So You Want To Be A Rock 'N Roll Star (Byrds), I Can Take You
To The Sun (The Misunderstood) and originals incl. Beyond And Before,
Midnight Sleigh Ride, Electric Funeral, Jeanetta, Images Of Me And
You, Get Yourself Together. The complete BBC session contains: "Beyond
And Before", "Electric Funeral", "Images Of You And Me and "Jeanetta"
>>>as the Yes recording. "B&B" starts off with the familiar "signal"
guitar line (which isn't really elaborate, but so what?).>>>
The opening is, I believe actually a howling Squire bass line - not
guitar.
>>>Listening to the interplay between Banks and Bailey makes me wonder
how Yes might've sounded with two guitarists who were interested in
working together>>>
To distinguish in MGTS who is who on guitar - Bailey = Fuzz
Weird that Bailey should get a co-writing credit for "Sweetness" but
none for Banks on "Yesterday And Today".
I hope this helps in some way,
Cheers,
Clifford
R. Totale
I actually think "All of The Time" is a lot better than Christopher
makes it sound, though it's still just a curio.
R. Totale
<8c...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
It's certainly the case for the US release of AotT/NML, I have the
record so I know for sure. The only supporting evidence I can put my
hands on immediately for the UK issues is the Record Collector
Magazine Price Guide, which lists both singles as by Hans Christian
(no Anderson). That magazine is usually very careful about
discographical matters, so I'd be tempted to believe them.
Steven Sullivan
> >>>The Syn were founded in 1965, as a merger of two other groups - The
> Selfs (which featured Chris Squire, Andrew Jackman and Martyn Adelman)
> and High Court (featuring Steve Nardelli and John Painter). Jackman
> wasn't quite an original member, but re-united with Squire & Adelman
> shortly after the group's formation. Painter left after two months,
> soon replaced by Peter Banks. The drumming situation was a tad more
> complicated (see below).>>>
> Where did this information come from ;-) BTW it is again "Syn" (not
> The Syn)
LOL. I've gone back and forth on this name thing
at least twice on my Yesgigs site, based on different bits
of evidence. Looks like I'll be changing it back to 'Syn' again.
Thanks, Chris and Clifford.
> >>>The Syn's recording lineup for the first single was as follows:
> Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
> John Painter: guitar on "Created By Clive"
> Peter Banks: guitar on "Grounded"
> Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
> Andrew Jackman: organ
> Gunnar Hakanarsson: drums>>>
> I'm not so sure about Hakanarsson's involvement on either of these
> especially "Grounded".
> >>>Jackman gets a good Hammond part>>>
> Actually it is his red and black Farfisa Mini-Compact (I have the
> Grey/Green one).
> >>>Clive's publicity drive/ Here's got to shake you if you want to
> survive".>>>
> s/b "He's got to shape you""
Who is the Clive in question here? Not Clive Davis, I assume.
Bailey?
--
-S.
"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director
Jim Kirkhope
I thought I read somewhere (Banks' _Let Me Play You Something_ liner
notes?) that Clive was the hippest hairdresser on the London scene at
that time and the song was a not-so-gentle jab at him and that
lifestyle.
- Jim Kirkhope
Lee Gately
Here are a couple of samples of credits:
http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968NeverMyLove.jpg
http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968AllOfTheTime.jpg
http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968NeverMyLove2.jpg
http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968MississippiHobo.jpg
Lee Gately
> In alt.music.yes Loeslin <cw.lo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>The Syn were founded in 1965, as a merger of two other groups - The
>>
>>Selfs (which featured Chris Squire, Andrew Jackman and Martyn Adelman)
>>and High Court (featuring Steve Nardelli and John Painter). Jackman
>>wasn't quite an original member, but re-united with Squire & Adelman
>>shortly after the group's formation. Painter left after two months,
>>soon replaced by Peter Banks. The drumming situation was a tad more
>>complicated (see below).>>>
>
>
>>Where did this information come from ;-) BTW it is again "Syn" (not
>>The Syn)
>
>
>
> LOL. I've gone back and forth on this name thing
> at least twice on my Yesgigs site, based on different bits
> of evidence. Looks like I'll be changing it back to 'Syn' again.
>
> Thanks, Chris and Clifford.
>
>
Well, the published music used the name "The SYN"
"http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1967CreatedByClive.jpg
The Pink Floyd
The Pretenders
are two other bands with an unwanted "The". One band eventually lost
the "The" while the other band can't seem to shake the "The".
What other bands have an unwanted "The"?
Loeslin
> > survive".>>>
>
> > s/b "He's got to shape you""
>
> Who is the Clive in question here? Not Clive Davis, I assume.
> Bailey?
Well, I'd always assumed that since the songwriters were C. and A.
Hubert Pattison that that may be a clue for you all. As I recall,
Clive Pattison wrote a few other songs of the period of which I have
in my collection, I just can not remember what they are at the moment.
I'm not sure that "Clive" was a real person in name but certainly as a
character or as an allusion to an industry/movement/trend. At that
time, Clive Bailey probably had not even started his or Mabel Greer's
Toyshop yet so I don't think he was on anybody's mind. Clive Davis,
well ... too american, no way.
Jeremy Weissenburger
<yes...@yesmuseum.org> wrote:
I always got Bodeans & The Bodeans confused. But that's a different
thing...
Jeremy
--
"Nobody likes a math geek, Scully." -- Agent Mulder
R. Totale
wrote:
>Steven Sullivan wrote:
>What other bands have an unwanted "The"?
The The
Christopher J Currie
> Christopher J Currie wrote:
>> I decided on HCA more from habit than anything else -- if you can confirm
>> that "Hans Christian" is the correct credit, I'd have no difficulty
>> changing it.
> http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968NeverMyLove.jpg
> http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968AllOfTheTime.jpg
> http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968NeverMyLove2.jpg
> http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1968MississippiHobo.jpg
Well, that would seem to settle the discussion. I'll make the necessary
adjustments.
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
>> Thanks, Chris and Clifford.
> "http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1967CreatedByClive.jpg
There's a Canadian group called "Odds" who frequently get an unwanted
"The" attached to their name. And I can remember reading that there was
never supposed to be a "The" in "The Eurythmics".
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
>> There's a Canadian group called "Odds" who frequently get an unwanted
>> "The" attached to their name. And I can remember reading that there was
>> never supposed to be a "The" in "The Eurythmics".
> It always makes me groan when people mention "The Talking Heads."
> However, I don't think the name Pretenders really "works" without a
> "The," even if the band tries so hard to sustain that conceit.
> (The joke about "The Christopher Currie" is so obvious here that there's
> no point in making it. ;))
I haven't even used that tagline in a while, of course ...
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
> Please let me congratulate you. You have done a great job on this
> effort. I hope that you will accept my following notes and comments as
> nothing more than constructive input.
My time in academia has taught me that one's first draft is seldom one's
last. As such, I'm not inclined to take your comments as a scathing
indictment of my right to contribute to this forum. ;)
Actually, it's been a while since I've contributed to a.m.y. on a regular
basis -- I've been somewhat out-of-the-loop regarding some current Yes-
related projects (including your work on Yes history). I'd obviously
come across your post on Syn's formation (*cough*), but I wasn't aware of
just how much research you'd done.
Thanks for the corrections. I'll credit you in the revised version,
obviously.
>>>>Yes played its first gig at the East Mersey Youth Camp on 4 August
> 1968>>>
> Actually it was August 3 at East "Mersea" Youth Camp (Banks and
> Bruford both independently confirm this in their schedules/diaries).
This is what I get for trusting Yesyears, I guess ...
> Tony Selvidge (Kaye) recorded an entire album with The Federals in
> Roumania in 1966 - the first rock band to record at the state-owned
> recording studios. There was some interesting cold war West / East
> history in this... The said to have remained there at the special
> invite from Caucescu (sp. ?) for cross cultural purposes.
Interesting. I don't suppose this album would be attainable for anyone
outside of Yes's inner circle ... ?
>>>>The song that the group recorded on this occasion was "You Came
> Along", written by the professional songwriting duo of Mason & Reed.
> David Foster wrote the b-side, "Don't Make Me Blue".>>>
> w/arranger Mike Leander on Piano - see my earlier post.
I was *wondering* about this ...
> Sleepy (1968):
> David Foster (B,V), Rod Hill (G,V), Ian Wallace (D), Geoff Peach
> (Sax), John Redfern (K), later adding Boz Burrell (G, V?), Jon
> Anderson (V) stood in with the band but was not an "official" member.
> They were given Lennon's "Across The Universe" by Lennon before the
> Beatles' release and pissed it away as it wasn't jazz. See my earlier
> post about this.
I can remember reading about this in Foster's autobiography. He still
seemed rather bitter ...
>>>>The Syn's recording lineup for the first single was as follows:
> Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
> John Painter: guitar on "Created By Clive"
> Peter Banks: guitar on "Grounded"
> Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
> Andrew Jackman: organ
> Gunnar Hakanarsson: drums>>>
> I'm not so sure about Hakanarsson's involvement on either of these
> especially "Grounded".
My source was Vernon Joynson's "Tapestry Of Delights" (specifically:
www.borderlinebooks.com/uk6070s/s19z.html). Mind you, I'm not sure what
*his* sources are ...
>>>>The b-side was a track called "Grounded", which doesn't show The
> Syn
> in the best possible light.>>>
> I disagree and actually this and 14 Hr. Technicolour Dream are the
> best glimpse that we currently have at their true live sound based on
> Banks and Jackman's input to me.
Well ... "best possible" and "most accurate" aren't always the same thing.
>>>>There's a strong element of early psychedelic-rock here>>>
> They were decidedly un-psychadelic - see my earlier posts re: Syn
They struck me as "psych-rock" in the sense that they featured such things
as distortion and odd instrumentation, and that there was a certain "DIY,
unpolished" quality to the vocals -- all constructed around a facade of
pop innocence. Mind you, I'm known for expanding definitions like these
to suit my immediate needs ...
Would you be offended if I overtook to write a paragraph-long/Bill-
Martin-esque justification of my phrasing, in the revised version? ;)
>>>>The Syn's second single was better. The lineup for *this*
> recording
> was:
> Steve Nardelli: vocals, guitar
> Peter Banks: guitar
> Chris Squire: bass, backing vocals
> Andrew Jackman: organ
> Chris Allen: drums on "14 Hour Technicolour Dream"
> Ray Steele: drums on "Flowerman"
> The Syn hit their peak (to date, at least) with their second
> a-side. "14 Hour Technicolour Dream" shows the band finally *doing
> something* with their skills.>>>
> Actually, Grounded and 14 Hr. ... may well have been recorded at the
> same session which was apart from "Created By Clive" and the later
> "Flowerman" - the event was 4.29.67 the single 6.23.67. I don't think
> Ray Steele ever recorded with them. He only rehearsed (did not get
> offered the money he wanted) and this was probably before Chris Allen
> joined.
Again, Joynson was my source.
>>>>"Flowerman", the b-side, starts off with another obvious psych-rock
> intro ->>>
> "lifted directly from the children show "Bill And Ben - The Flowerpot
> Men
You know ... I *thought* I recognized this, but I wasn't sure of the exact
source of the quote.
> Chris Squire: bass, vocals
> Pete Banks: guitar
> Clive Bailey: second guitar, probably vocals as well
> [see below]: drums>>>
> Clive Bailey - on the verge of out-of-control FUZZ guitar and lead vox
> - line-up below.
I'll have to listen to these tracks again, now that I know this (not that
this would be an unpleasant activity for me, of course).
>>>>Before going any further, however, I should address the matter of
> the drummer. ... "Tub Thumper" -- the Yesyears tree, by contrast,
> identifies him as "John Cymbal". It's pretty clear that both of these
> are pseudonyms -- in fact, they might just be Frame's way of saying "I
> really don't know who the drummer of MGTS was and I'm going to create
> a cute running joke instead". Some other sources identify the drummer
> as "Tub Thumper", but I'm not sure I can trust these. If anyone knows
> the identity of this mystery figure, please let me know.>>>
> Drummer was Bob Hagger a.k.a. Alexander Belmont. The other names are
> made-up and were never pseudonyms used. Someone made them up to
> cleverly fill in the blanks.
Thanks -- this had been bothering me for *years*.
Bill Bruford was however "Tubs" Bruford
> and there are photos of him in his shirt from "The Yes Album" period
> with him wearing it.
I'd noticed this, and wondered if there was a connection ...
>>>>as the Yes recording. "B&B" starts off with the familiar "signal"
> guitar line (which isn't really elaborate, but so what?).>>>
> The opening is, I believe actually a howling Squire bass line - not
> guitar.
Well ... a bass *is* a guitar, after all.
(Okay, this was a mistake on my part ...)
Thanks again,
Christopher
Stephen Bruun
news:c5bdbfa7.03123...@posting.google.com...
> The line-up was as follows:
>
> Bitter Sweet: Tim Steele (G, V), Bruce Thomas (B) ->Bodast, John
> "Willie" Wilson (D) ->Syd Barrett, Quiver etc., Tony Kaye (K) - they
> were managed by Black Hill Enterprises (Pink Floyd, Bodast ....)
The liner notes to "Bodast: Spectral Nether Street" say that Bruce Thomas
hung out with Bodast but "as a friend not a band member," contrary to
earlier reports.
--
To reply, remove YOUR OWN EYES
Stephen Bruun
news:ORIIb.24292$xX.89531@attbi_s02...
> What other bands have an unwanted "The"?
Cream and Buffalo Springfield.
I remember watching the broadcast of Live Aid in 1985. The VJ thought that
they'd gone to commercial and her mic was left open, so I heard her chatting
with the studio personnel. At one point, knowing the group was coming up,
she asked "is it Style Council or THE Style Council?"
Quentin Tarantino once referred to Blues Traveler as "The Blues Travelers"
after John Popper gave him a harmonica.
On the opposite side of the scale, I always think of Billy Corgan's old band
as "Smashing Pumpkins" rather than "THE Smashing Pumpkins."
Christopher J Currie
By the way, as long as we're clarifying these points ...
Can anyone give me the *songwriting* credits for:
-the HC(A) singles
-the Syn singles (not the The Syn singles, of course)
-"Images Of You And Me" & "Jeanetta"
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
> Who is the Clive in question here? Not Clive Davis, I assume.
> Bailey?
A bit of research yielded the following:
"In a very ironic coincidence, two versions of Created By Clive were
released the same day, by The Attack and The Syn! The result was neither
got any attention that the song was meant for which was probably better
off as the liner notes of their[1] posthumous compilation Magic In The Air
notes "Clive, a fashion designer who specialized in dressing debs in
see-through mini-dresses, would have probably sued anyway".
[1] The Attack, that is
Christopher
Christopher J Currie
> Loeslin <cw.lo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> Bitter Sweet: Tim Steele (G, V), Bruce Thomas (B) ->Bodast, John
>> "Willie" Wilson (D) ->Syd Barrett, Quiver etc., Tony Kaye (K) - they
>> were managed by Black Hill Enterprises (Pink Floyd, Bodast ....)
> The liner notes to "Bodast: Spectral Nether Street" say that Bruce Thomas
> hung out with Bodast but "as a friend not a band member," contrary to
> earlier reports.
So who plays bass on the Bodast tracks, then?
Christopher
Loeslin
> Well, the published music used the name "The SYN"
>
> "http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1967CreatedByClive.jpg
>
> The Pink Floyd
> The Pretenders
>
> are two other bands with an unwanted "The". One band eventually lost
> the "The" while the other band can't seem to shake the "The".
>
> What other bands have an unwanted "The"?
Hello Lee, how are you ?
This is my understanding on the subject...
I have / have seen all of the (SYN) singles (UK, FR, US, NL, RSA) and
I do agree that the labels all (incorrectly) say "The Syn".
Both Banks and Jackman independently made it very clear to me /
corrected me that it was Syn (no "The"). Like other bands - Who, Move,
Nice, and later Yes for example. I have seen various reports
mentioning "The Yes" as well.
Imagine some poor person trying to sell the latest single by "Who" or
"Nice". To be mod the band name was requisitely short, three or four
letters most, snappy and no "The". Short meant bigger - better
advertising visibility (read marketing).
I have a pre-Banks professional management band flyer from 1966 and it
is clearly "Syn".
This is my understanding.
Loeslin
I don't have this version of the Bodast CD at this time (I would love
to get it one day - reality of finances and family you know) so I do
not know who wrote the liner notes material. It is possible they are
correct, however, my source was a telephone conversation w/Mr. Howe
who pointed out Bruce's involvement to me (this was clearly around
1986 or so - he called me collect). jim Halley made the connection for
me. Steve also mentioned to me Canto, Spanish Song and a about four
other tracks he had which were at the time still unreleased on an
acetate he had which have now found their way to bring released. I
mentioned that I had an alternate mixes of Nether Street and Tired
Towers on acetate to him and he was really interested in that.
Loeslin
My information (correct or otherwise) is:
BODAST / CANTO:
Bobby Woodman-Clarke (D), Dave Curtis(s) (born: Atkins) (B, G, V),
Steve Howe (G), Clive Maldoon (born: Skinner) (V, G), Bruce Thomas (B)
added later mid - late 1969 (evolved out of pre-Deep Purple group
"Roundabout").
CANTO was said to be just another name used for an abbreviated line-up
of the above.
Steven Sullivan
> "http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1967CreatedByClive.jpg
Don't know, but Yes was often YES! in the ads for their Marquee gigs.
Stephen Bruun
> So who plays bass on the Bodast tracks, then?
Dave Curtiss.
Stephen Bruun
> not know who wrote the liner notes material.
Jon Newey. Beneath his name, in smaller type, reads "Thanks to Dave
Curtiss, Bobby Clarke, Keith West and Jeff Dexter." Comments by Clarke and
Curtiss appear in the liner notes. Elsewhere, Steve Howe is also thanked -
presumably meaning he assisted with the reissue project but not with the
actual liner notes.
It's certainly possible that memories of 35 years ago have dulled and
diverged.
Jeff Blanks
> On the opposite side of the scale, I always think of Billy Corgan's old band
> as "Smashing Pumpkins" rather than "THE Smashing Pumpkins."
They *were* "Smashing Pumpkins". It seems they just gave in to the way
people said their name after a while. For some reason no one seemed to
get it grammatically, the way people generally do with "Counting Crows",
which is grammatically the same sort of construction.
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
Jeff Blanks
> > There's a Canadian group called "Odds" who frequently get an unwanted
> > "The" attached to their name. And I can remember reading that there was
> > never supposed to be a "The" in "The Eurythmics".
"Eurythmics" isn't a plural of some singular neologism "eurythmic",
though I didn't know this for years. Calling the band "The Eurythmics"
would make no more grammatical sense than calling it "The Electronics"
or "The Politics" or "The Plate Tectonics".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eurythmics
> It always makes me groan when people mention "The Talking Heads."
And not only that, they put out (of course) a live album specifically
called *The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads* and STILL no one got it.
> However, I don't think the name Pretenders really "works" without a
> "The," even if the band tries so hard to sustain that conceit.
Well, look at "the" (not "The") Eagles, or even the/The Beatles
sometimes. AFAIK, the "Eagles" have always used only that single word.
Ben Wolfson
Jeff Blanks wrote:
>"Stephen Bruun" <YOUR...@OWNstarpowerEYES.net> wrote:
>
>> On the opposite side of the scale, I always think of Billy Corgan's old band
>> as "Smashing Pumpkins" rather than "THE Smashing Pumpkins."
>
>They *were* "Smashing Pumpkins". It seems they just gave in to the way
>people said their name after a while. For some reason no one seemed to
>get it grammatically, the way people generally do with "Counting Crows",
>which is grammatically the same sort of construction.
No, they were *The* Smashing Pumpkins, using "smashing" as a decidedly
non-verbal adjective. "Counting Crows" is a different construct.
--
BTR
The Glass Marble, mistaking the No. 37 Penpoint for the Four-Holed
Button, pushed it into the Yawning Chasm.
Lee Gately
> Lee Gately <yes...@yesmuseum.org> wrote in message news:<ORIIb.24292$xX.89531@attbi_s02>...
>
>
>>Well, the published music used the name "The SYN"
>>
>>"http://yesmuseum.org/collectors/45s_YES_and_Early_Singles/1964-1971/1967CreatedByClive.jpg
>>
>>The Pink Floyd
>>The Pretenders
>>
>>are two other bands with an unwanted "The". One band eventually lost
>>the "The" while the other band can't seem to shake the "The".
>>
>>What other bands have an unwanted "The"?
>
>
> Hello Lee, how are you ?
I am very well, thank you. I hope you are, too, Clifford.
> This is my understanding on the subject...
>
> I have / have seen all of the (SYN) singles (UK, FR, US, NL, RSA) and
> I do agree that the labels all (incorrectly) say "The Syn".
>
> Both Banks and Jackman independently made it very clear to me /
> corrected me that it was Syn (no "The"). Like other bands - Who, Move,
> Nice, and later Yes for example. I have seen various reports
> mentioning "The Yes" as well.
>
> Imagine some poor person trying to sell the latest single by "Who" or
> "Nice". To be mod the band name was requisitely short, three or four
> letters most, snappy and no "The". Short meant bigger - better
> advertising visibility (read marketing).
>
> I have a pre-Banks professional management band flyer from 1966 and it
> is clearly "Syn".
>
> This is my understanding.
While reading the liner notes on Banks' "Can I Play You Something" I
found that at least once Peter refers to the band as "The Syn", but he
usually uses "Syn". (See notes for "Created By Clive")
Happy New Year.
Zorknapp
>Date: 12/31/03 6:38 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <c5bdbfa7.0312...@posting.google.com>
Cliff, you're always a font of useful information, and it's great that you post
here.
I'm just curious though, what do you do for work? Are you a full time
music-historian, or do you have some day job?
I'm not asking to be snotty, I'm just curious.
Thanks!
Mike
Jeff Blanks
> Jeff Blanks wrote:
> >"Stephen Bruun" <YOUR...@OWNstarpowerEYES.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On the opposite side of the scale, I always think of Billy Corgan's
> >> old band as "Smashing Pumpkins" rather than "THE Smashing Pumpkins."
> >They *were* "Smashing Pumpkins".
>
> No, they were *The* Smashing Pumpkins, using "smashing" as a decidedly
> non-verbal adjective. "Counting Crows" is a different construct.
Then why didn't they use "The" on their first few album covers?
Think of the bands introducing themselves on stage: "Hello, we're..."
The word "smashing" makes a lot more grammatical sense to me as a
progressive-tense verb (like, well, "counting") than as an adjective.
Loeslin
snip ....
> Cliff, you're always a font of useful information, and it's great that you post
> here.
>
> I'm just curious though, what do you do for work? Are you a full time
> music-historian, or do you have some day job?
>
> I'm not asking to be snotty, I'm just curious.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike
Hi Mike,
Thank you for asking. I am just a family man with a day job. My
background and interests are in Electronics (including music/sound
processing circuits), Psychoacoustics, Quality Assurance,
Manufacturing Engineering (process analysis and improvement...) and
genealogy. I'm also a bit of a musician (guitar & MIDI) and, dare I
say, a huge fan and collector of Yes and related persons/bands.
As a fan and a friend to others, I have contributed to a number of
projects credited and uncredited - for more about this see my a.m.y.
post as follows:
Date: 2003-01-15 10:43:36 PST
Re: rhino re-releases...........what's next? (message # 18 in thread)
Stephen Bruun
> I'm also . . . a huge fan and collector of Yes and related persons/bands.
He doesn't mean he has a huge collection. He's a "huge fan" because he
weighs 817 pounds.
;-D *wink*
Clifford's name is in the credits for the Rhino reissues. It seems that
Clifford is to Yes what Mark Lewisohn is to the Beatles. Very much a deep
well of interesting band facts and I'm always pleased to read his posts
here. Truly, in a newsgroup full of yapping little puppies such as myself,
he is Clifford the Big Red Dog.