Howe's take on Elias (Was Re: Union)
Kevin
working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
1993 interview from NFTE:
MOT: In the press clippings I've read Jonathan Elias said that Jon
Anderson
agreed that the quality of your playing and Rick's playing on UNION
was lacking
and that's why he brought outside musicians. On the other hand Jon has
said he
wasn't let anywhere near the mixes, so there's a little discrepancy
there...
SH: You're telling me! Well basically it's a real kick in the pants
to
hear from...you see, what production is is basically teamwork, you've
got to
get with the people and understand what they're like, and you find out
what
they do, and in no way did Jonathan give me the feeling that he was
unhappy,
disappointed, or that I wasn't prepared to come back and do something
again
and again; he knows what I'm like, I mean I look for it, I find it,
I'm not
content until I've got it and basically the guitar parts I did were
constructed
like that. Now, there's the time you say, well, this one doesn't work
you do
this again. And if Jon or anybody ever walked in and said, I don't
like that,
would you do something else, I'd do it. Because basically I understand
what
teamwork is supposed to be about. But what happened with Jonathan
seems to be
that he playing us all off against ourselves so he was mister nice-guy
with
everybody and right behind Jon and myself goes about changing things,
he
actually got another guitarist to come in and play my part on 'Shock
to the
System'. I played the solos, I played a couple of bits in there, and
all the
other bits have been copied from me and they got some session
guitarist in
just to play my parts! Well the sound he used is a predictable heavy
metal
guitar. I used a Fender Telecaster, 1955, nicely processed and worked
out, so
we really got the sound down and then there's some other idiot playing
on my
track. Now, what's he doing there? Who has the right to say that I,
Steve Howe,
will not appear on 'Shock to the System'? And the other things were
all edited
around, vocals that he always said to me wouldn't be over the guitar
solos were
over the guitar solos, that were edited from 'Silent Talking' where
the guitar
elevated the music, the singing went over the elevated
music-guitar...all these
things were just really confusion. Now he can say that we were
confused but
what a producer is supposed to do is allow musicians to be reasonably
confused,
put on lots of ideas and then sit back and really judge the band and
make
something of that music and always somebody comes off here and
somebody goes
on there, and I would have been quite happy to do that.
We were at a dilemma about missing keyboards, it was a strange time.
When I
played records with ASIA with Synclaviers and Fairlights somehow it
was
confusing what was exactly going on because he never seemed to draw
much out of
Rick and therefore he got other people in to play keyboards. And this
is
supposed to be a Yes record! What a disgrace! An absolute disgrace.
But the
songs like the first song, 'I Would Have Waited Forever' is so
haphazardly
mixed that you get the feeling you're going to be listening to it on a
transistor radio. I mean, Bill's drum kit on there, the exact same
drum kit on
TURBULENCE, if you think of the drums on TURBULENCE you'll be
convinced that
*that* is a great drummer playing a great kit. You listen to it on
UNION it
sounds like it's in a paper bag! Now if a producer takes over much
like Trevor
Horn did with Frankie Goes to Hollywood, you know he's putting his
reputation
at stake and he better do a good job, maybe a few musicians more have
been a
problem when a producer is given too much license. But basically when
we made
ASIA, one, that was a team, Mike Stone, a great producer, worked with
us and
got those things so we *were* all happy together, much like all the
early Yes
records were done like that; and there can be slip-ups where somebody
goes on
holiday and comes back to make record. Well, don't go on holiday. So I
made
myself available and also sung on a great deal of it, some of which
Jon for
some reason didn't approve. It was all planned to be used, it wasn't
haphazard,
there were lyrical ideas I put in to support Jon, behind him, much
like in
'Close to the Edge' there were counter vocals, imaginative ideas all
of which
were highly approved and praised by Jonathan Elias and he doesn't want
to put
them in any of the mix at all...and there you are...UNION is the album
where
everything Jonathan Elias mixed turned out sounding like rubbish. So
much for
the great ideas of Yes that we all had, eight of us together, we
didn't even
hold out that far making sure, of being allowed to make sure when the
tapes
were being shipped. I would call Jonathan and say, where's the mixing,
I'm
coming over next week, he said, 'I'm not sure because I'm still
copying to
another format and then it goes to L.A.' and then I'd be in New York,
and then
I'd be in London, and then he'd come to London then I went--it was
like a game.
I can go on all night about that.
It was made with the right intentions but it was taken out of our
hands which
it should not have had; and we believed in Jonathan which was a big
mistake and
what we got was basically a very inferior record. Thanks goodness I
contributed
through the grace and good insight of Roy Lott at Arista [who] called
me up and
said, 'I think we need a bit more of you on the album, we reached that
point
we've spent millions on this we now want a track to come from you.' So
I just
looked in my private music that I have here and I found a few tracks,
I sent
them to Roy, he picked out 'Masquerade' and said, 'This is the kind of
track
I'd like on the album to see, thank you very much.' I said, thanks,
Roy, that's
really nice. I got nominated a Grammy for that and that track to me is
the only
good thing about that whole album. I'm not knocking what Yes
contributed--I
think 'Miracle of Life' is very good, I don't really like songs like
'Lift Me
Up' personally--and the rest of it and so they had the freedom to do
what they
like. We should have been looking after our own ship which was called
ABWH/Yes
and instead we got believing that somebody else could do it, and to be
honest I
know now that there is no player than can do my guitar, that's why I
was at the
mix at most of the music of Yes, I was at the mix of TURBULENCE
grasping at
things, you know. Because I know that without my view of the guitar
nobody
seems to know what to do with it and it's a joke. Electric guitar is
like
acoustic guitar to me which is, you can't just record it and put it
out and say,
that's the guitar. You need the position, you need a tonal
correctness; you
know it needs the right notes, it needs the right rhythm, it needs to
be in
time, in tune--it'd surprise you to think I haven't met anybody who
cares
enough about the guitar except me to do that with my guitars. Eddie
Offord was
a great, a first rate character, he moved nicely between all those
areas of
producing and what he might have done, who's to say? But when you're
talking
about Jonathan Elias, he doesn't come up this far. I know I was in
back of a
limousine which I rarely travel in--I prefer to travel on my own
really, not
in limousines--and I remember I was in the back of the limousine in
L.A. and I
picked up the L.A. Times and there's a whole cover piece there on
Jonathan
Elias, it was the first he had a chance to get back at us [laughs]!
And I
thought what he said was downright disgraceful, that we couldn't come
up with
the parts.
Todd Mitchell
news:<268212e4.04052...@posting.google.com>...
> Since we've dug up some old quotes from Elias and Wakeman about
> working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
> 1993 interview from NFTE:
>
> SH: <snip> But basically when
> we made
> ASIA, one, that was a team, Mike Stone, a great producer, worked with
> us and
> got those things so we *were* all happy together, much like all the
> early Yes
> records were done like that; and there can be slip-ups where somebody
> goes on
> holiday and comes back to make record. Well, don't go on holiday.
LMAO. Yeah, don't go on holiday because I might decide to have your
ass *fired* from the group and then told so while standing at a
payphone thousands of miles away. (see also: John Wetton, first Asia
departure, 1983).
--
I'm Todd Mitchell, and I approved this post.
JS
> Since we've dug up some old quotes from Elias and Wakeman about
> working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
> 1993 interview from NFTE:
>
> MOT: In the press clippings I've read Jonathan Elias said that Jon
> Anderson
> agreed that the quality of your playing and Rick's playing on UNION
> was lacking
> and that's why he brought outside musicians. On the other hand Jon has
> said he
> wasn't let anywhere near the mixes, so there's a little discrepancy
> there...
> Kevin
> http://www.cdbaby.com/caffrey
I think 'Miracle of Life' is very good, I don't really like songs like
'Lift Me Up' personally
----------------------------
I agree!!! I remember hearing Lift Me up on the radio and it sounded
like crap! 'Miracle of Life' would have been a way better single.
Atleast the tour was great.
gmelin
: confused,
: put on lots of ideas and then sit back and really judge the band and
: make
: something of that music and always somebody comes off here and
: somebody goes
: on there, and I would have been quite happy to do that.
In other words, he's mad that Elias cut what he played, yet he thinks a
producer's job is to do exactly that sort of thing, and he'd be happy to
have been the one cutting what (other) people played. Got it.
--
gmelin
You make a good point, but on the other hand . . . shut up!
-- Duke Phillips
Steven Sullivan
> When I
> played records with ASIA with Synclaviers and Fairlights somehow it
> was
> confusing what was exactly going on because he never seemed to draw
> much out of
> Rick and therefore he got other people in to play keyboards.
Classic Hovian sentence. Address letter to city A, but make sure it
arrives at city B.
> And this
> is
> supposed to be a Yes record! What a disgrace! An absolute disgrace.
Then again, originally it was supposed to be an ABWH record.
> But the
> songs like the first song, 'I Would Have Waited Forever' is so
> haphazardly
> mixed that you get the feeling you're going to be listening to it on a
> transistor radio. I mean, Bill's drum kit on there, the exact same
> drum kit on
> TURBULENCE, if you think of the drums on TURBULENCE you'll be
> convinced that
> *that* is a great drummer playing a great kit. You listen to it on
> UNION it
> sounds like it's in a paper bag! Now if a producer takes over much
> like Trevor
> Horn did with Frankie Goes to Hollywood, you know he's putting his
> reputation
> at stake and he better do a good job, maybe a few musicians more have
> been a
> problem when a producer is given too much license.
Hmmm..reference to Mr. Rabin here?
> made
> myself available and also sung on a great deal of it, some of which
> Jon for
> some reason didn't approve.
NB: the same Jon who claimed to have gotten nowhere near the mixes.
> the great ideas of Yes that we all had, eight of us together, we
> didn't even
> hold out that far making sure, of being allowed to make sure when the
> tapes
> were being shipped. I would call Jonathan and say, where's the mixing,
> I'm
> coming over next week, he said, 'I'm not sure because I'm still
> copying to
> another format and then it goes to L.A.' and then I'd be in New York,
> and then
> I'd be in London, and then he'd come to London then I went--it was
> like a game.
> I can go on all night about that.
Yeah, it was like a game of cat and....spackle?
> It was made with the right intentions but it was taken out of our
> hands which
> it should not have had; and we believed in Jonathan which was a big
> mistake and
> what we got was basically a very inferior record. Thanks goodness I
> contributed
> through the grace and good insight of Roy Lott at Arista [who] called
> me up and
> said, 'I think we need a bit more of you on the album, we reached that
> point
> we've spent millions on this we now want a track to come from you.'
I love that NFTE supplied that [who] for us. (If it was them.)
> really nice. I got nominated a Grammy for that and that track to me is
> the only
> good thing about that whole album.
Note to Brufordophobes: now *that's* bitter.
--
-S.
"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director
Terrell Miller
news:268212e4.04052...@posting.google.com...
> Since we've dug up some old quotes from Elias and Wakeman about
> working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
> 1993 interview from NFTE:
<*SNIP*>
for the record: this is the single most incoherent and unrelentingly
narcissistic interview from Steve that I've ever read.
Let's all take a moment to thank Elias for cobbling together a pretty decent
album out of the material he had to work with at that point.
--
Terrell Miller
mill...@bellsouth.net
"At one point we were this Progressive edgy group and we can't really equate
that with Brother Bear so I don't know really."
-Tony Banks
Paul Goodwin
> working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
> 1993 interview from NFTE:
<snip>
What Steve Howe said:
"Now he can say that we were
confused but
what a producer is supposed to do is allow musicians to be reasonably
confused,
put on lots of ideas and then sit back and really judge the band and
make
something of that music and always somebody comes off here and
somebody goes
on there, and I would have been quite happy to do that."
What David St. Hubbins said:
DAVID: But you're not as confused as him are you? I mean it's not your
job to be as confused as NIGEL is.
IAN: It's my job to do what I'm asked to do by the creative element of
this band. And that's what I did. C'mon...
Coincidence?
naaaaaaaa ;-)
--
Paul
Dave W.
"Terrell Miller" <mill...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:nKPsc.3144
> Let's all take a moment to thank Elias for cobbling together a pretty
decent
> album out of the material he had to work with at that point.
>
> Terrell Miller
> mill...@bellsouth.net
>
Here's my thanks to Jonathan Elias:
Fuck you, JE, for being a total egomaniac and destroying some material that
had a lot of potential. I think the ABWH songs, given enough time to
develop, would have been very good, the Trevor Rabin material was
predictable, but good, Chris had a gem in there with "The More We Live" and
"Masquerade" was Steve's best solo work.
Lesson learned: Control your material, never give away your MIDI tracks,
defend your ideas and stick with the project until its completed. Bands that
give their recordings to men in suits are often surprised and disappointed
with the results.
Dave
Kurt Michaels
Sorry Dave....but the Yes guys chose to take the ca$h behind door # 2. No
suits...no ca$h...They didn't care about their material, midi tracks or ideas
as much as you seem to. Ain't that a kick in the head?????
KMCc:) ??????????????
Steven Sullivan
> "Kevin" <oldirty...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:268212e4.04052...@posting.google.com...
> > Since we've dug up some old quotes from Elias and Wakeman about
> > working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
> > 1993 interview from NFTE:
> <*SNIP*>
> for the record: this is the single most incoherent and unrelentingly
> narcissistic interview from Steve that I've ever read.
How many have you read?
> Let's all take a moment to thank Elias for cobbling together a pretty decent
> album out of the material he had to work with at that point.
Union a pretty decent album'?
Wait, aren't you one of hte 'Bruford is bitter' crew?
1ctte
--BK
"Paul Goodwin" <pgoodwin2n...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:2hi09nF...@uni-berlin.de...
Terrell Miller
news:c916hu$dp7$2...@reader2.panix.com...
> > for the record: this is the single most incoherent and unrelentingly
> > narcissistic interview from Steve that I've ever read.
>
> How many have you read?
heh heh
he usually comes to some sort of point, eventually. The only point he made
in this interview is his standard "without me it's not Yes", he just ramped
up the ego-gratification factor bigtime here.
> > Let's all take a moment to thank Elias for cobbling together a pretty
decent
> > album out of the material he had to work with at that point.
>
>
> Union a pretty decent album'?
yep, always liked it. Not as good as BG, better than Talk, not what we were
expecting...but still lots of good stuff.
If it helps, think of it as a companion to TFY instead of a "Yes album" as
such.
> Wait, aren't you one of hte 'Bruford is bitter' crew?
not at all, he's just got a very droll sense of humor that I really enjoy
most of the time.
Steven Sullivan
> "Steven Sullivan" <ssu...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:c916hu$dp7$2...@reader2.panix.com...
> > > for the record: this is the single most incoherent and unrelentingly
> > > narcissistic interview from Steve that I've ever read.
> >
> > How many have you read?
> heh heh
> he usually comes to some sort of point, eventually. The only point he made
> in this interview is his standard "without me it's not Yes", he just ramped
> up the ego-gratification factor bigtime here.
> > > Let's all take a moment to thank Elias for cobbling together a pretty
> decent
> > > album out of the material he had to work with at that point.
> >
> >
> > Union a pretty decent album'?
> yep, always liked it. Not as good as BG, better than Talk, not what we were
> expecting...but still lots of good stuff.
> If it helps, think of it as a companion to TFY instead of a "Yes album" as
> such.
> > Wait, aren't you one of hte 'Bruford is bitter' crew?
> not at all, he's just got a very droll sense of humor that I really enjoy
> most of the time.
OK ,I'll try to keep it straight .
Todd Mitchell = bitter <schnicker> Bruford
Terrell Miller = bastard Howe
Terrell Miller
> OK ,I'll try to keep it straight .
>
> Todd Mitchell = bitter <schnicker> Bruford
> Terrell Miller = bastard Howe
there ya go :)
Todd Mitchell
>"Steven Sullivan" <ssu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:c92bog$nud$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
>> OK ,I'll try to keep it straight .
>>
>> Todd Mitchell = bitter <schnicker> Bruford
>> Terrell Miller = bastard Howe
>
>there ya go :)
<schnicker> You're nobody until somebody hates you.
Henry Potts
>Since we've dug up some old quotes from Elias and Wakeman about
>working on _Union_, here's Howe talking about Elias & _Union_ from a
>1993 interview from NFTE:
>Now if a producer takes over much like Trevor Horn did with Frankie
>Goes to Hollywood, you know he's putting his reputation at stake and he
>better do a good job, maybe a few musicians more have been a problem
>when a producer is given too much license.
It's hard to translate what Howe is saying here, but he appears to be
praising Horn's production for Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Horn produced
the first Frankie album: the band's lead and backing singer can be heard
on that album, _Welcome to the Pleasuredome_, but the three
instrumentalists did not play a single note of it. It's all various
session musicians (including Howe and Rabin) and the production team
themselves. Horn makes Elias or Rabin look like an amateur when it comes
to taking over an album.
--
Henry
Zen Cat36
DAVID: But you're not as confused as him are you? I mean it's not your job to
be as confused as NIGEL is.
IAN: It's my job to do what I'm asked to do by the creative element of this
band. And that's what I did. C'mon...
Coincidence? naaaaaaaa ;-)
Paul>>
Argh you beat me to it! The Tap quote came to me as soon as read that.