Jazz Mouthpiece Suggestions
Eric Vierhaus
I've been playing on a Bach 42T with a 5G mouthpiece for some time now. I
know I've broken a cardinal sin and have been playing jazz on an orchestral
horn, but I finally scrounged up enough money to buy a good jazz horn.
Bottom line, any good suggestions for what kind of mouthpiece I should use?
I plan to be using both horns a lot, so I don't want to mess my chops up too
much by playing a real small and real big mouthpiece at the same time.
Someone suggested buying a smaller cup mouthpiece but getting it custom
fitted with a 5G rim size.
Any suggestions?
Thanks much,
Eric
Andy Derrick
<nan...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I've been playing on a Bach 42T with a 5G mouthpiece for some time now. I
>know I've broken a cardinal sin and have been playing jazz on an orchestral
>horn, but I finally scrounged up enough money to buy a good jazz horn.
It is not a cardinal sin. I led a Jazz quintet for 5 years on a Holton
Bass Trombone (listen to my MP3's on my webpage). I have only recently
switched to Tenor ( I bought a really small one) so I can do the
higher parts in Big Bands.
>Bottom line, any good suggestions for what kind of mouthpiece I should use?
>I plan to be using both horns a lot, so I don't want to mess my chops up too
>much by playing a real small and real big mouthpiece at the same time.
>Someone suggested buying a smaller cup mouthpiece but getting it custom
>fitted with a 5G rim size.
Human flesh is quite adaptable. You would probably need to do a lot of
practice on both mouthpieces to make sure you are using both to their
full potential. I would personally go for a big difference in rim
sizes rather that a similar one. That way, I would think of the small
trombone as a completely different instrument, therby making the
change of style easier.
I recently changed onto a Bach 7C and find it great giving me enough
sizzle when I need it. The bottom range needed a little work to get
back after using a 6.5AL but is gradually working out.
Good luck.
--
Andy Derrick Group www.andyderrick.com (Jazz)
Orquesta Huracan www.oh-latinmusic.com (Salsa)
Actikid
There are different schools of thought here. Some people try to use the
same rim for everything. This is easiest to accomplish with the Doug
Elliott system (big $$$$). This can work, but just make sure you keep
the cup volume rather small on the jazz horn. Otherwise it could end up
sounding pretty tubby. Also, if you have chops of steel, the wide rim
may be fine, but it does take more strength to play long gigs on the
bigger rims if you are in the upper register most of the time.
I try to use an embouchure-based approach to the horn, rather than a
mouthpiece-based approach. I try to develop enough strength and control
in the embouchure itself so that it doesn't really matter what rim I
use. If you can do that, you will have a wider range of options without
spending too much money.
I've tried a lot of mouthpieces on small horns. There are plenty of
good ones. For me, I've never found any that work a lot better than a
Wick 7C, so that's what I generally use on the small horns. But you
really need to experiment for yourself. It's like asking what size
shoes we wear. That may be interesting, but you really need to find
what fits you.
Gonzo
> I try to use an embouchure-based approach to the horn, rather than a
> mouthpiece-based approach. I try to develop enough strength and control
> in the embouchure itself so that it doesn't really matter what rim I
> use. If you can do that, you will have a wider range of options without
> spending too much money.
>
Yes. One of the best suggestions I've read on the forum is set the horn on
a table and play it. This gives you an instant feel for using little
pressure and letting the embouchure do the work. Specifically, the
muscles surrounding the embouchure. IMHO depending on the rim depends a greater
deal on pressure against th echops. Try the table thing. The first time
I did it, I found that the changes it suggested not only improved my
over all sound, but my upper extended range grew dramatically. (Your
results may very <G>). But I will say that I think light MP pressure is not
"an approach" it should be THE approach and is the right way to play.
Gonz
Tim Redman
orchestral
> horn, but I finally scrounged up enough money to buy a good jazz horn.
I don't know the opinion of everyone else- but I don't think you've broken a
cardinal sin. I play everything on a Bach 42B- I played Georgia All-State
High School Jazz, played solo features in a Florida music festival, and
accompanied a jazz musical with it. As long as I can articulate and express
yourself as needed in jazz, the fat sound of the horn is okay. Everyone
loves my sound (I say that in a modest way- I have my own dislikes about it
that I wish to change)
Does anyone agree with my about playing jazz on a big horn? It is difficult
to play lead sometimes because you don't poke out enough.
JB
who plays a 3B. One of the players is named Joel Brooks on a 42C(most often
without trigger), a great player, with a great range, and who sticks out
well, the lead trombone. Another trombonist who I know who is great is named
Sara Jacovino, who plays a 682B, and got the jazz scholarship down at UNT.
Just goes to show you, it isnt the horn, it's the player.
--
John B.
"Tim Redman" <rdt...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%i9Y6.18450$9r1.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Will Humber
and an excellent lower range(as far down as lead bigband parts go that is.)
Actikid
>
> I don't know the opinion of everyone else- but I don't think you've broken a
> cardinal sin. I play everything on a Bach 42B- I played Georgia All-State
> High School Jazz, played solo features in a Florida music festival, and
> accompanied a jazz musical with it. As long as I can articulate and express
> yourself as needed in jazz, the fat sound of the horn is okay. Everyone
> loves my sound (I say that in a modest way- I have my own dislikes about it
> that I wish to change)
> Does anyone agree with my about playing jazz on a big horn? It is difficult
> to play lead sometimes because you don't poke out enough.
No, it is certainly not a cardinal sin, or any kind of sin. One can
play good jazz on any horn. I've even done it on a sackbut. If the
only tool available is a 42B, go for it. Do the best you can with the
available equipment. The only point here is that the large horns are
not ideal for jazz for either the player or the listener. A smaller
horn offers a great deal more agility and ability to inject nuances.
The typical jazz horns also have a more penetrating timbre that is a bit
more conventional sound for a jazz group. But don't avoid playing jazz
just because you don't have access to a "proper jazz horn". Certainly
at the high school level, it is just fine. At the collegiate and
professional level, some people will turn up their noses at a 42B
playing jazz, but just ignore them. Get the best sound you can produce.
If you are doing a lot of this, you may want to consider getting a
smaller mouthpiece for the 42B for use in jazz situations. A good
choice of mouthpiece can give you about 75% of the playing
characteristics and sound of a smaller bore horn. And that is a lot
cheaper than buying a second horn. It is not a good long-term answer,
but can be a great short-term improvement.
Milton Brewster
rdt...@bellsouth.net says...
---
I don't have the right to an opinion as a Trombonist (even tho I
have plenty), but I have opinions as a sometime-arranger. I think
there is more than one "trombone" sound in Jazz, and that there
is plenty of room for a Bach 42 within that range. I suspect that
what works the best is a pretty sophisticated interplay between
what kinds of musical expression you are personally good at; what
kind of embrochure you've developed; YOur facial features, mouth
and tongue, that create part of the personal quality of the sound
that you make; what you need to sound like to express the piece
you're concerned with; what mouthpiece you use; the horn you use
to express all this; what the other folks in the group are doing;
and the accoustics of the hall you are playing in. All this
before the leader rears his friendly head.
* * * * *
My project for this year, is to find a new "Jazz" horn. Things
have changed a bit since I bought my old King 2B, and I want to
get a personal feel for what's out there and whether or not it
fits me. I also have a Sterling-Bell King 3B/F, and it just
keeps helping me sound better the longer I play it. Any new
horn I buy would probably have to beat that old 3B.
I am looking for a lively, flexible horn that can play with
breathy, cool, intense, sweet, or firm sounds. I want a
fairly bright edge when I need it; and a fairly 'fat' sound when
I need it. I'll sacrifice a little in the low register to easily
play well in the high register. I'd like to be able to sit in a
Kenton section (maybe a stretch), play 'white-guy' Dixieland,
sound wonderful on a ballad, and attempt to play easier postwar-
sounding ensemble standards. I don't want a thin, dull or sour
sound.
I see that King has a new 2B+, that has a slightly larger bore --
.500. I also see that Getzen has a new .500 bore horn, and I'd
like to hear what the Martin Urbie Green horn sounds like. Bach
makes some smaller bore horns, but they don't seem to be top
professional models, so I don't know what to think about them. On
the other hand, I think I've got a Frank Fontana solo where he
plays a Bach 16, and that sounds pretty good to me.
I might try these peanut whistles and decide to look at a larger
horn, like a Bach 36, with a .525 bore. King doesn't seem to have
a really good .525 pro-grade horn that I know of, but they do
have a 4B, that might be a better Jazz choice than its direct
compeditor, the Bach 42. I've never played a light weight slide,
so I wonder whether they deaden the sound any -- and whether they
really make a difference in speed and flexibility, or are a waste
of money in a jazz ensemble.
The Conn horn model range looks good, but I don't know much about
recent Conn models. A .525 Conn with an open-wrap F attachment
and a light slide could be what I'm looking for, if they make
one like that. I also don't know much about the Holton line --
except that they seem to cost more than their compeditors, and I
suspect they have a lot of presence because of their
generally larger bell sizes. I know absolutely nothing about
Yamaha, Selmer, Benge, Blessing or Besson horns. I am absolutely
sooooooo not good enough for an Edwards or a Shires or a Rath,
except that I would worship one if it ever came into my hands. I
would play it like I was making out with Marilyn Monroe.
It's easy to get lost in bore sizes talking about all this
equipment. It makes me feel a little squeamish. My real object is
to find a horn that helps me to play more musically -- and to
play the music that *I* like to play, the way I hear it in my
ear before I play it.
milt
Actikid
> I might try these peanut whistles and decide to look at a larger
> horn, like a Bach 36, with a .525 bore. King doesn't seem to have
I believe they offered a 3B+ at one time that was 525. I don't know if
it is still made.
A really unusual "tweener" is the new Yamaha 350C, which I believe is a
508/525 dual bore. Although it is positioned as a student horn, the
Yamaha quality is good throughout the product line. It might be worth a
look.
Milton Brewster
says...
Good suggestions. I had no idea about that 3B+. I guess I have
strange Ideas about trombones.
I suspect that my 3B/F dual bore design contributes to the
quality of the sound that I like. I wonder if you (or anybody
here) has played enough on both single and dual bore designs, to
have an opinion on how this affects general tone quality and
playability. Maybe it really doesn't matter after all.
milt
Jerry Lapham
> I don't have the right to an opinion as a Trombonist (even tho I have
> plenty), but I have opinions as a sometime-arranger. I think there is
> more than one "trombone" sound in Jazz, and that there is plenty of
> room for a Bach 42 within that range.
I think part of the problem in these discussions is a failure to
distinguish between playing "jazz" in a small group and playing the "lead"
or "jazz" chair in a big band. Any size trombone (or even a euphonium)
works for the former; a small bore cuts through better for the latter.
-Jerry
--
============================================================
Jerry Lapham, Monroe, OH
E-Mail: rjla...@infinet.com
Written Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 02:45 PM (EDT)
============================================================
MR/2 Ice tag: Ask me about my amnesia.
Actikid
>
> I suspect that my 3B/F dual bore design contributes to the
> quality of the sound that I like. I wonder if you (or anybody
> here) has played enough on both single and dual bore designs, to
> have an opinion on how this affects general tone quality and
> playability. Maybe it really doesn't matter after all.
>
I've played a few. They have all struck me as more tame than a straight
bore of the smaller size. They might be a little slower to start the
notes, but I find the notes easier to hit securely. Generally the tone
quality is a bit more rounded. There are lots of variables, so I can't
say those generalizations will hold.
When I got my King Silvertone, the brass King slide (straight bore, sub
500) gave the horn a really harsh sound. I love big overtones, but this
was just over the top. I went with a 500/508 dual bore slide in
nickel-silver. That really mellowed it out. But I changed 3 factors at
once (nickel outer slide, larger bore, and dual bore). It is hard to
say how big a role the dual bore played. If I were doing it again, I'd
want to have a go at the straight 500/500 slide, because I think I tamed
it slightly too much.
If you approach the dual bore from above (i.e. you take a large horn and
reduce the first slide tube) you can expect to gain some control at the
expense of power. Still one of my favorite configurations is a 547
tenor with a 525/547 slide. For me, that provides just the right sound
volume for lots of settings like brass quintet, trombone choir, or maybe
3rd chair in a big band. I'm expecting an 8" bell for this horn in the
mail in the next day or two. I'm thinking this should be an excellent
package for a good compact sound (525/547 slide, 547 Thayer valve
section -- the F loop is a little larger, going into an 8" bell). It
should allow for more coloration within a tighter dynamic range (not so
loud) while still playing freely with the F attachment engaged. We'll
see.
I also have a big honking dual bore slide on my bass (562/584). This is
the proverbial slide euph. If you put a big mouthpiece on it, it is
really warm, yet very powerful. I love the way that combination plays
-- everything is very solid. But the sound is too dark to be hard in
many groups, so I often use a shallow mouthpiece and sometimes even drop
back to a 547/547 slide.
BTW, I tried that new Alan Kaplan bass mouthpiece being produced by
Parke. I really liked it. It is reasonably solid for me down to a
pedal F. But unlike all the other bass mouthpieces I have tried, it
really is splendid in the upper register. I've been caught in
situations where I had a lot of trouble playing above high G securely
with power late in a concert/gig. This mouthpiece really maintains a
good tone core all the way up into the high tenor range even though it
seems to be a little bigger than a Bach 1-1/2G. It is no match for
something like a Doug Yeo mouthpiece if you really need those booming
bass lines. But if most of the playing is in the middle range, this
seems like a really nice piece. See www.parke.net
John Sunday
<rdt...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>Does anyone agree with my about playing jazz on a big horn? It is difficult
>to play lead sometimes because you don't poke out enough.
I played small combo jazz on an 88H with a Bach 3 mouthpiece for several years.
Finally changed to a King 3B, but I am still using the Bach 3 mouthpiece.
Good sound and good range. Recently tried a 6˝ AL due to the glowing remarks
seen on this NG, but after what I considered a fair trial period, went back to
the 3.
John Sunday
The Villages, FL
sab...@mindspring.com
=====================
Lead is the only REAL problem as far as large equipment and jazz
playing...that and playing fairly authentically in older styles (if
that's your thing).
As you say, it's hard to "poke out enough". (LOVE that line...) You
can get the notes if you have the chops, but not the attitude.
If you become a working musician who has to play many different
styles, that problem can be compounded by difficulty in blending
w/other players who are playing smaller equipment. What usually
happens...and this is not necessarily the best career tendency in many
respects...is that you will be consistently put on the lower parts
because that is where your larger sound is most effective.
Also...if you are working in situations that are challenging in
terms of endurance...several hard gigs in a day, a gig that asks for a
LOT of loud and/or high playing...you might find the large equipment
more of a burden than an advantage.
Later...
Sam Burtis
>
Milton Brewster
sab...@mindspring.com says...
---
Are there times where you would choose a large tenor over a small
tenor? Maybe a pit band? Maybe the 'Music Man' book, where some
of the pieces are supposed to sound like marches? Would you
choose a larger horn for a second or third part in a piece that
generally needed an ensemble sound from the trombone section,
where your job was to blend and support rather than lead?
I don't mean to split hairs -- I'm just looking to see where the
limits might be.
milt b
Carl Dershem
>
> ---
>
> Are there times where you would choose a large tenor over a small
> tenor? Maybe a pit band? Maybe the 'Music Man' book, where some
> of the pieces are supposed to sound like marches? Would you
> choose a larger horn for a second or third part in a piece that
> generally needed an ensemble sound from the trombone section,
> where your job was to blend and support rather than lead?
>
> I don't mean to split hairs -- I'm just looking to see where the
> limits might be.
>
> milt b
I use a .525 for leads and 2d parts in jazz and pit bands, and a .547
for lower parts there, for "legit" work, and for occasional jazz bass
parts where I want a crisper tone. Haven't done The Music Man yet, and
refuse to do any marching (well, my knees refuse for me). Either can be
good for quintet stuff, though, and I have a (rarely used) .562 for
occasions where I need a very round, tubby sound, but most of my bookers
prefer a brighter tone.
cd
sab...@mindspring.com
==================
Yes...absolutely.
It is not uncommon for really good NYC freelance tenor trombone
players to have at least two horns (or more)...a .509 or smaller and a
.525 or larger (often w/an F attachment), each played w/appropriate
m'pces, and to use them when the occasion warrants.
I would no more go into an ochestral film date w/my .500 bore
Williams 6 and fairly bright m'pce than I would show up on a big band
gig where I would be playing a lot of Dorsey style stuff w/my old
525/.547 dual bore Conn and a fairly large m'pce.
I mean, if I had to, I could do the gigs...and sometimes you do get
stuck w/the wrong equipment for the job...but if I CAN, I bring the
right tool. If I don't know WHAT I'm going to be playing, I often
bring two horns so that I'll have a choice.
Sam Burtis
Actikid
Milt, I think it is important to keep in mind that Sam is a working
freelance pro at thte top of the craft. What he is describing is a
necessity at his level. For most of us, it is logical (and fun) to use
appropriate equipment, but it isn't so much a mandatory thing. Band
leaders are often specific when they want a bass trombone. I got a call
this week from a bandleader I've known a long time. This is the first
time he's invited me to play with his big band. He was curious about
what equipment I would use because he has a section of 3 bones. I'm
playing the third book which blends elements of tenor and bass. His
regular guy uses something like a Reynolds or Conn that has some real
bark. We talked about what I could do to get close to the sound he
prefers. The point is that this sort of conversation happens for me
maybe once every 2 years. People rarely ask about the differences
between small versus large tenor, although some people do suggest an F
attachment if they know the music runs below the staff.
So at the amateur/semi-pro level bandleaders aren't often specific about
equipment. But the key issue is that they do know a sound they like
versus a sound they don't like. If you are playing a horn that doesn't
give the right sound, they may conclude that you aren't the player they
want. They probably won't say anything, they'll just bump you down
their call list.
So equipment can matter. Of course, ability to sight read, play in
tune, cover the style set by the lead player, play in balance, and get
along with the other musicians matter a whole lot more than equipment.
If you can't do those things well, you won't be on the call list at all.
gary GRIZ kurbis
saxman,who always brings his bari, tenor, alto, soprano, his flute, &
clarinet, so with-out being told, I assume they want me to bring my
trumpet, & both 'bones.
"Standards" is what our menu mainly consists of, so we open most tunes
with the "head", or melody, then pass around "choruses", giving all a
chance to solo.
For the "rowdier" tunes, my old "plain-Jane" Martin, gets me where I'm
going, with it's raw, uncolored, & cutting voice. But on a ballad like,
"I'm Glad There Is YOU", BONEZILLA just "blankets" the walls with that,
even in the upper register.
People are taken a little "off-guard", when the hear a tune, on an
instrument, not famous for playing solos! Keeping the listener slightly
"off-guard", is what I like to call, "JAZZ". "WAVE", played on a
bass-'bone, in the lower "bowels" of the acoustic spectrum, slower than
it's ever been heard before, almost seems to "hypnotize" the listeners.
So, I guess my point is, if the slightly "unexpected" instrument is
used for the playing of jazz, this doesn't make it a bad choice!
Playing lead, in a section on a "big-gun", my be a little awkward &
unbalanced, if 2nd & 3rd are being played on .500"s, but I've seen it
done well! & a whole section of "big-bores", has BALLS!
If it's in your constant playing-ethic, to blend, & 4 players are
willing to adjust their playing to do so, it will cause a more
"professional" effect, than all the "correctness", of the instruments
they chose to do it on! This is what is lacking, in most school-level
jazzbands!
Gary "GRIZ" Kurbis Sr.
PASSING THE TORCH - KEEPING THE FIRE OF BRASS ALIVE ! !