Help needed - Valve trombones
Morten Thorsen
I have a couple of questions regarding valve trombones:
In your opinion, what is the best valve trombone available ?
(sound, intonation, handling, playability, airflow)
I'm an euphonium player generally, but I want to double on trombone, so I
would like the bore and bell to be pretty big (preferably large bore/shank),
for a wide broad sound.
Does any valve trombone come with a compensating system ? (like on an
euphonium/tuba)
If not, does any valve trombone have any dynamic feature for corection bad
intonation (eg. triggers, slide hooks)
I want a professional instrument. Price doesn't matter
ps! Are the valves operated by left or right hand on valve trombones ?
Thanks!
Best regards
Mr. Morten Thorsen (Norway)
Eric Dekkers
Thorsen" <morten....@ajourit.no> wrote:
>I have a couple of questions regarding valve trombones:
WEll, I'll only be able to answer a few, so you'll have to do with
that...
>In your opinion, what is the best valve trombone available ?
>(sound, intonation, handling, playability, airflow)
I have a 'Mahillon' valve-trombone; a nearly 60 years old
silver-polished intstrument. I bought it for a very nice price (about
$200) a year ago, at that time it looked really bad, and the valves
seemed to have had there best time. I had the thing revised, and now
it really works well! The valves run really smooth, and the sound is
pretty warm. It doesn't have the power of a slidetrombone though.
>I'm an euphonium player generally, but I want to double on trombone, so I
>would like the bore and bell to be pretty big (preferably large bore/shank),
>for a wide broad sound.
The Mahillon I have is a small-boring instrument, but still it has
quite a warm sound; not quite the euphonium-sound, but warmer as a
slide-trombone.
>Does any valve trombone come with a compensating system ? (like on an
>euphonium/tuba)
My valve trombone has the compensating triggers quite like wich are
used on trumpets; you use you thumb and your little finger (what's the
name? We call it 'pink' but I guess that's wrong...*s*) to handle
them.
>I want a professional instrument. Price doesn't matter
I'm not sure if they are still made!
>ps! Are the valves operated by left or right hand on valve trombones ?
Right hand; I think that's best, for I don't know how long it would
take to learn to use my left hand to handle the valves...:)
Well, I don't know if there's something for you in this message, but
hey, I've tried...:)
Grz,
Eric
--
CD-overzichtje: http://www.schuif.nl/CD
Waits-overzichtje: http://www.dse.nl/~gollum
D
aid
> intonation on the sharp 1-3, 1,2,3 valve combinations.
That may be, but don't get the idea that it's as easy to move as the third
valve slide on a trumpet. On a valve trombone you're moving a larger and
longer piece of tubing and you can't make it jump out there as easily as a
trumpet.
> I've never seen a valve trombone with the compensating system BUT it would
be
> feasible to fit a "trigger" valve to the bell (i.e. an f-attachment) in
the same
> manner they are fitted to slide trombones, which would give more options
for
> intonation, and low range... used rather like a fourth valve on a
euphonium.
While it's certainly possible to fit a valve slide section into a bell
section with an F attachment, you have to bear a couple of things in mind:
First, that will be a small-bore bell section and the F attachment notes
won't speak as well as on a large-bore horn. Second, intonation on the
trigger notes becomes an issue and when you're using a valve trombone you
want to eliminate intonation problems, not compound them. Third, trying to
hold the horn and activate an F attachment with the left hand while
operating the valves with the right hand would create a terrible balance
problem. You'd end up having to pull some of the weight of the horn up with
your right hand, thereby hindering fast fingering.
To the person who started this thread: my advice is not to pick up the valve
trombone - it won't give you the sound you're looking for and will just
frustrate you with all its intonation problems. Also, you won't actually be
learning anything new. Instead, take a little time and learn the slide
trombone. Then you'll truly be a doubler and really increase your knowledge.
Good luck.
--
Dale J. Cruse
da...@dalecruse.com
http://www.dalecruse.com
Actikid
> To the person who started this thread: my advice is not to pick up the valve
> trombone - it won't give you the sound you're looking for and will just
> frustrate you with all its intonation problems. Also, you won't actually be
> learning anything new. Instead, take a little time and learn the slide
> trombone. Then you'll truly be a doubler and really increase your knowledge.
I agree. There aren't any "good" valve trombones, if you are looking
for something that blows well and produces a full-bodied trombone
sound. If you are looking for something that can snort out a lot of
notes quickly, just about any valve trombone will do that, and it can be
a fun thing.
Learning slide trombone will make you a better euphonium player because
a) you will begin to internalize the physics of both instruments, b) you
will become more conscious of intonation, and c) you will develop better
breathing habits. Plus it is a lot of fun. It isn't all that difficult
from playing valves. To get started, you simply learn the
correspondence between the 7 (approximate) slide positions and the 7
different combinations of fingers you use with your valves. Open = 1st
position, 2nd valve = 2nd position, and so on. It doesn't take too long
to develop some muscle memory that way.
Good luck.
Graypearl
I personally went the other way -- majored in trombone in college, but
picked up the euphonium after the brass band I play in ran short on them.
Now I play it more than I do my trombone. And -- in a bit of irony -- I was
started on valve trombone in the 7th grade and then switched to slide! (The
band director at the time apparently wasn't ready to teach positions, so I
guess he figured I could "find the positions faster" if I had an idea of
what the notes sounded like first. Go figure.)
Yes, pursue the valve option, but at least take a shot at the slide horn.
The valve trombones I've played all had some stuffiness to them -- can't
beat the straight pipe for that big, fat, OPEN sound. (In fact, I think I
have a better trombone sound since I picked up the euph.) Revisiting the
trombone at regular intervals helps me with breath support on the euph, too.
Whatever you do, have FUN with it.
James
--
That ain't workin.
That's the way ya do it.
Ya play the trambone
with a Bach 4G . . .
-- with apologies to Mark Knopfler
"dude" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3baf...@news.alphalink.com.au...
> But, to the original poster (Morten), don't give up on the valve trombone
idea
> if you don't want to. Bear in mind that most here are slide trombonists,
who
> will always recommend taking up the slide... those who incorporate
doubling on
> valve trombone to their "arsenal" are more often trumpet, euphonium and
tuba
> players... so you may find more encouragement from players on trumpet and
tuba
> forums!!
>
Dale J. Cruse
> will always recommend taking up the slide
instruments. The tone is stuffy and intonation is a constant battle. Many,
many slide players have tried the valve 'bone and found it to be a fun TOY.
We've all tried them because we *wanted* them to be good. But guess what?
They suck.
There have been a few noteworthy valve trombonists (Juan Tizol, Bob
Brookmeyer, and Rob McConnell immediately come to mind) but note that all
them are in jazz big bands/combos. If you're going to be playing in any sort
of wind band, orchestra, or brass ensemble, the valve trombone isn't the way
to go.
Eric Dekkers
Cruse" <da...@dalecruse.com> wrote:
>There's a *reason* for that: Valve trombones are (generally) inferior
>instruments. The tone is stuffy and intonation is a constant battle.
I can't really agree at this with you. Using my valve-trombone I had a
bit of starter problems with intonation, but since I'm using the same
mouthpiece I've been using on my normal small-boring-slide-trombone
those problems are gone.
>Many, many slide players have tried the valve 'bone and found it to be a fun TOY.
That's for sure.
>We've all tried them because we *wanted* them to be good. But guess what?
>They suck.
Can't agree again...Sure, the slide-trombone is MORE fun and has a
better sound. But sometimes I take up my valve trombone to play some
jazzy tunes...wich is a lot of fun. And the sound (what you called the
'stuffy sound') is pretty nice when placed in a smooth-jazz combo!
>There have been a few noteworthy valve trombonists (Juan Tizol, Bob
>Brookmeyer, and Rob McConnell immediately come to mind) but note that all
>them are in jazz big bands/combos. If you're going to be playing in any sort
>of wind band, orchestra, or brass ensemble, the valve trombone isn't the way
>to go.
That I'll agree to. The valve-trombone-sound is shaped so that it
doesn't really fit into a lot of soundscapes...but like I told; it can
be very nice for smooth and quick solo's in moody jazzmusic.
Morten Thorsen
I'm the one who started this thread, and I want to thank everybody for their
opinions. I've not decided what to do yet, but your comments helps alot. I
have a feeling that I'll go for a valve trombone, and perhaps move on to a
slide trombone later. I know that these kind of instruments are concisered
inferior to the slide trombones, but the thing I'm really asking for here,
is if anybody could help me pick out the least "teriible" of these
instruments. Most of you have already advised me to use this kind of
instrument only in jazz context because of the sound, but I would think that
it should matter a bit how well you play also (not that I'm a world
champion). A lot of things can (on most instruments) be adjusted with the
breath and your lips. Anyway, I'm greatful to everybody not advising me to
buy this instrument, cause you probably just want the best for me.
Unfortunately (as it seems here) I'm going to play this instrument a wind
band and perhaps a chamber orchestra. As I said, I've not decided what to do
yet, so if you or anybody else has more to add, I'll appreciate it.
Best regards to all of you
Morten Thorsen (Norway)
"Eric Dekkers" <eric@weg_er_mee.midex.nl> wrote in message
news:sar0rt86kvp64l785...@4ax.com...
Dale J. Cruse
news:gd%r7.260$tu6....@news1.oke.nextra.no...
> Hi, all of you!
>
> I'm the one who started this thread, and I want to thank everybody for
their
> instrument only in jazz context because of the sound, but I would think
that
> it should matter a bit how well you play also (not that I'm a world
> champion). A lot of things can (on most instruments) be adjusted with the
> breath and your lips.
best trombone player in the world (whoever you decide that is) can make a
valve trombone sound good by altering the airstream or lipping or whatever
but YOU have to decide how much time you want to spend battling the
instrument to make it sound as good as you want. Many people would prefer to
work WITH an instrument to make music instead of making music IN SPITE OF
the instrument. That's a decision only you can make. Good luck no matter
what you decide.
Jon Moeller
than a valve t'bone
"Dale J. Cruse" <da...@dalecruse.com> wrote in message
news:ay5s7.20942$ei.31...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
Jon Moeller
what gives a trombone its sound
a valve trombone is just a small bore euphonium
" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3bb15571$1...@news.alphalink.com.au...
> > > Bear in mind that most here are slide trombonists, who
> > > will always recommend taking up the slide
>
> > There's a *reason* for that: Valve trombones are (generally) inferior
> > instruments. The tone is stuffy and intonation is a constant battle.
Many,
> > many slide players have tried the valve 'bone and found it to be a fun
TOY.
> > We've all tried them because we *wanted* them to be good. But guess
what?
> > They suck.
>
> Not neccessarily.
>
> The rest of us don't need to play slide tubas, trumpets, french horns,
> euphoniums.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actikid
>
> The rest of us don't need to play slide tubas, trumpets, french horns,
> euphoniums.
I'm not aniti-valves. I have 5 or 6 valved horns in the trombone
range. But I don't own any of the traditional valve trombones, not even
a junker. I just don't think they are very useful. Even the best
players produce tone quality that makes them sound like beginners
because the bore is generally way too tight. Most of these horns are in
the 490-500 bore range. With a slide trombone, you can play that bore
to a brilliant or sweet tone quality, but when you add the valves in
line, it just gets stuffy.
I have an Olds marching trombone that has a bore somewhere around
510-520. It is distinctly better. It is still stuffy, but I think it
is a clear enough sound that the instrument has merit in a small
percentage of playing situations. I have a Conn trombonium that has a
547 bore. That is not stuffy at all. If anything, it tends to be on
the euph-like end of the spectrum, even though it uses the same
cylindrical proportions as the Conn 8H. The valve section apparently
lends the euph a big part of its timbre.
On the basis of these observations, I would think a 525 bore valve
trombone would be a very nice compromise. But I have never seen such a
thing. Manufacturers have cranked out hundreds of thousands of those
500 bore beasts that, to me, are not viable for any serious musical
endeavor. I can't understand why nobody did what seems to be perfectly
obvious: give the horn enough bore so that it can breathe. If anybody
has seen/played a valve trombone in the 525 range, I'd love to hear
about it.
SEA1045
>510-520. It is distinctly better.
I have both an Olds Marching Trombone and an Olds Valve Trombone about the same
vintage. The Valve plays well, with very intonation, and is not as stuffy as
the marching trombone. I believe both of them are .515 bore. The Olds valve
has a "trombone sound".
sea
ActiKid
I see that Cerveny makes a rotary valve "bass trombone" with a bore of
14.2 mm, which makes it about .560 inches. Their standard bore valve
horn is 12.4 mm = .488 inches. That is a huge gap between the two
products.
Yamaha makes just one valve bone at .500.
The only Bach Strad valve bone I see is a 16 at .485
Getzen makes the 998 ETERNA valve bone. Again, it is puny -- .486
through the valves.
The Getzen site has a comment that probably explains why these things
are so small. "The valve set used for the instrument is .486", one that
will be both easy enough for the trumpet player to fill and large enough
for the trombone player to play through freely."
I guess the manufacturers always viewed the valve trombone as a doubling
instrument for trumpet players as opposed to a proper trombone. You
would have thought somewhere along the line, somebody would have made a
valve trombone for trombone players. The Olds mentioned about is the
closest thing I've seen.
MartinG
from the distant theory days that Rossini wrote his trombone parts for Valve
trombone's originally, I guess because the slide players couldn't do that
sort of stuff? Don't know, of course the difference in bore in those days
between a slide and valve instrument would have been minimal, I
suppose...puts a different light on the never ending argument of what sound
the composer had in mind when he wrote it..I would think the "storm"
sequence in the W. Tell (can't remember if this was one of the ones
allegedley written for valve horns or not..I'm dredging this up from the
dark recesses guys, it's not an academic essay!)would sound an awful lot
different on small bore valve horns than the symphonic monsters of
today...probably more "lightening" than "thunder"..and no, I don't want to
start the "eupho-bone" thread again, it's just interesting how often
different threads take us back to this very fundamental question about our
instrument!..well, I think it is anyway..off home now guys, see you
tomorrow!
Cheers,
Martin
Elliott Moxley
No, no, no! A valve trombone is NOT a small bore euphonium. The euphonium is
a conical bore instrument, while the valve trombone and slide trombone have
cylindrical bores. Ever see a tapered slide? Although dual bore slides offer
varying degrees of make-believe conicity, depending on what position the slide
is in.
At one time, I had a King 3B with an F attachment, to which I later added a
valve section. Not to knock King, but that combination was not terribly
useful. The valve section was fairly open, as I remember, but no comparison
to the slide section. The trigger didn't really help the intonation
problems any. You could not play below the staff in tune, as the valves would
not let you compensate for the longer slide positions normally needed. And
of course you could not adjust the 6th overtone notes, F, E, and Eb.
I also tried an Olds 0-21 marching trombone, which had a .515 bore. I can't
remember too much about that one either way, good or bad, but decided that I
really didn't need a valve trombone.
My current valve instruments are a Besson 968 euphonium, and a Salvationist
Triumphonic English Baritone, made by Besson for the Salvation Army in the
late 1950s. That one took some getting used to, with compensating valves (3)
and a .485 bore. But it blends well with a trombone, and if Morten is looking
for something different, he should try one of the current Besson baritones.
The last time I looked, the 955 was the latest model.
Or get a good student or even used pro trombone, and learn to do it right.
Simone Mantia did, just to keep his job! If nothing else, it's good ear
training. Try it-
Elliott Moxley
Actikid
Yes, I agree that you don't want them so big that they sound like a
euph. If one wants a euph sound, better to go with a euph. But I just
think the physics of a .485 valve trombone are hopeless, unless maybe
you are a trumpet player attacking it with a really small mouthpiece. I
have no doubt that a trumpet player would feel more at home with the
back pressure of a .485, but can they make a good trombone sound that
way? I've never heard that.
Of course. "good trombone sound" is entirely subjective. Bob Brookmeyer
has made a nice career of playing the valve trombone for what it is,
stuffiness and all. Still I'd love to have a chance to toot on a valve
trombone in the 525 range where there is a conscious effort to minimize
the tight bows. I'm betting that could be a pretty hot instrument.
As the Getzen site suggests, I do believe valve trombones have been
targeted at trumpet players. That made sense in the past, but these
days, a high percentage of slide trombonists are competent on valves and
could really exploit an "open" valve trombone.