Holton Trombones
conn60h
they made some very popular brass instruments, some years ago. But are
they still worth a tryout or two?
Seems like most of the ink on this group is centered around Edwards. With a
little King, Conn, Olds and Bach thrown in. With the ocasional Getzen and
Reynolds.
Just currious,
conn60h
matt
also came in a version with a screw bell. It was a dual bore straight
horn, obviously intended for orchestral playing. It probably would have
been a good axe if I had spent some time with it, but it was too
different from my 88-H, and I couldn't adapt. Of course you can take
what I say with a grain of salt, because I traded a Bach 36 Mt. Vernon
straight for the Holton. The 36 was a stunningly beautiful instrument,
but I couldn't play it either. I've played an 88-H exclusively since
5th grade (about 30 years ago) until last year, when I got a 48-H .500
bore horn, and have a hard time playing other instruments. Me and my
Conn...
Benjamin Walter
news:OJwm8.38788$N7.68...@ruti.visi.com...
>Why is it I never hear much from this group on Holton trombones? I know
>they made some very popular brass instruments, some years ago. But are
>they still worth a tryout or two?
Some months ago, I got a new Horn. I played a Kühnl & Hoyer for years
and wanted to improve.
On my search, I tested some Holton. Quite good horns, but I liked
others better.
I ended on a Bach 42... ;-)
Just my two cents.
Bb
Andy Derrick
wrote:
I had a Holton TR181 for 10 years and it was good. I found however
that the build quality was very low. After 1 year, the mouthpipe inner
slide came out completely and just a fortnight after, the other one
came out. If kept in a gigbag, once the triggers had been bent a
little, it was impossible to realign them.. Both trigger levers came
apart several times, stays fell off and lots of other things happened.
If I am to spend that money on buying a new instrument, I don't want
repair bills for a few quid in the first few years. When I decided to
buy an Edwards, I bought the slide first and had the Holton bell
adapted to fit it. It made a great difference. Once I bought the bell
section, I realised I had been fighting with the Holton for years.
I think if you were to compile a league table of trombones, the Holton
TR181 would not be in the top league of big professional Bass
trombones. Whether that is the same for other models, I couldn't
comment having never tried their Tenor models. However, the tenors are
under represented and I think that speaks for itself.
--
Andy Derrick
www.triolatino.co.uk - latin jazz trio - free mp3
www.andyderrick.com - trombone led jazz ensemble
www.myjo.co.uk - award winning big band
Tim Dowling
until I tried my teacher's 88H. Well that was that. I guess Holton's had
a better reputuation when guys like Crissafulli and Premru and Rudi
Josel were active, but I don't know anyone who plays one. I don't even
know who their "artists" are anymore. The TR 150 was OK but I never
missed it after changing to the Conn.
Tim Dowling
keith.marr
rather than Tenors. Whilst I wouldn't entirely disagree with Andy's comments
on the build quality I cannot quite agree with the comment below.
> Andy Derrick wrote:
> I think if you were to compile a league table of trombones, the Holton
> TR181 would not be in the top league of big professional Bass
> trombones.
I know at least eight players who have a TR181 for some work and the B454
Edwards for orchestral stuff. I find mine is fine for orchestral work but I
much prefer my Duo Gravis for big band work. I don't play bass in brass band
but the bass player in that band plays a TR181. Our regular bass player in
the orchestra players the Holton too. As I play first in orchestra this
means I do tend to regard the Holton as my second choice bass but a great
instrument for all that.
Talking around the Bass grapevine here the choices are Rath R9, Edwards
B454, Holton TR181, and there are a few Bach 50s. I only know one bass
player with a Conn (a 112H).
We should perhaps remember that the TR181 is quite an old design now, but
they still sell them as fast as they can make them. Holton are at the moment
at the R&D stage on a new bass model which I reckon will probably have
Greenhoe valves so it should be quite something.
Andy Derrick
<ke...@gothicway.fsnet> wrote:
>I know at least eight players who have a TR181 for some work and the B454
>Edwards for orchestral stuff. I find mine is fine for orchestral work but I
>much prefer my Duo Gravis for big band work. I don't play bass in brass band
>but the bass player in that band plays a TR181. Our regular bass player in
>the orchestra players the Holton too. As I play first in orchestra this
>means I do tend to regard the Holton as my second choice bass but a great
>instrument for all that.
Another factor is the price and availability. Holton's are
considerably cheaper and easier to get hold of than say a Bach or an
Edwards. I know when I bought mine, I wanted a Bach but I was
impatient. When I was buying again, I wanted a Bach again but was put
off by the quoted 18 months wait. I got an Edwards instead and had a
choice of bells to choos from.
>Talking around the Bass grapevine here the choices are Rath R9, Edwards
>B454, Holton TR181, and there are a few Bach 50s. I only know one bass
>player with a Conn (a 112H).
Yes, the Conn's aren't universally used. Seems strange when their
Tenors are so popular. When I buy next, I will spend more time looking
but I am already favouring the Rath (having had a tenor for 3 years)
and the Edwards (having owned one before).
>We should perhaps remember that the TR181 is quite an old design now, but
>they still sell them as fast as they can make them. Holton are at the moment
>at the R&D stage on a new bass model which I reckon will probably have
>Greenhoe valves so it should be quite something.
The design is about 30 years old isn't it ? I would try a new Holton
when it came out. However, the Greenhoe valves would make it very
expensive and what's to say they aren't able to keep up with demand
and end with the situation that Bach Selmer has ?
keith.marr
Regarding the comment about Conn it seems to be the same situation as
Holton. People tend to think of Holton as a bass bone manufacturer and Conn
as a tenor manufacturer, despite the fact that Holton make quite good tenors
and Conn make excellent basses. By the same token King seems to be regarded
as a jazz bone manufacturer. UMI certainly seem to be basing the
rationalisation of their range on that principle.
You info in the lead time for a Bach astounds me, no wonder I only know one
player with one! Rath will have to be careful not to end up in the same
situation, they quoted me 10 weeks for an immediate order some time ago,
suggesting that it would take far longer when their US dealer and the
British Army orders arrived. I noticed at the November Remembrance Sunday
service in London that the entire massed Guards bands were playing Raths.
Strangely enough it's not just the "hand-made" manufacturers that have this
problem. I was quote six months lead time on a Jupiter 636L recently.
"Andy Derrick" <an...@andyderrick.com> wrote in message
news:sjfm9uk4v1jhk97lp...@4ax.com...
Andy Derrick
<ke...@gothicway.fsnet> wrote:
>All good points Andy.
>
>Regarding the comment about Conn it seems to be the same situation as
>Holton. People tend to think of Holton as a bass bone manufacturer and Conn
>as a tenor manufacturer, despite the fact that Holton make quite good tenors
>and Conn make excellent basses. By the same token King seems to be regarded
>as a jazz bone manufacturer. UMI certainly seem to be basing the
>rationalisation of their range on that principle.
Let's face it, what bones are good and what aren't is a very personal
thing. I know a very happy user of a Conn 112H, he had a Bach, Holton
and an Edwards previously. When I go looking, I will look for the best
bass trombone I can get, I won't think about brand as much as I can.
>You info in the lead time for a Bach astounds me, no wonder I only know one
>player with one! Rath will have to be careful not to end up in the same
>situation, they quoted me 10 weeks for an immediate order some time ago,
>suggesting that it would take far longer when their US dealer and the
>British Army orders arrived. I noticed at the November Remembrance Sunday
>service in London that the entire massed Guards bands were playing Raths.
>
Have a look at the rath website picture page, www.rathtrombones.com
and click photo album. you will see a few military sections pictured
with their instruments.
>Strangely enough it's not just the "hand-made" manufacturers that have this
>problem. I was quote six months lead time on a Jupiter 636L recently.
Well, it does have to come all the way from China !
Mat Tab
Hmmm...I bought a TR181 about 6 years ago, second hand for a thousand quid.
It was in perfect nick then and still is now, despite leading a heavy life
in a gig bag. I first tried the model at Sun Life band in the mid nineties
and had the opportunity a few months later to try all the other main
contenders on the market. The Holton, in my opinion, was the best of the lot
and is why I bought one. I had a brand new one to use in another band,
though and this one was noticeably poorer in build quality - within a couple
of weeks, all the laquer had come off the slide where you hold it and the F
tubing had started to blow.
Maybe I've been lucky with mine, but I really get on with it (with either a
Bach 1G or a Wick 0AL) and can't see the need to change.
Have you tried any of the newer bass bones, Andy and if so, what do you
think? Are these open wrap configurations and Thayer valves worth the money?
I'm always being complimented on my sound with the Holton and I've built up
a fiendish reputation with the thing which I wouldn't want to lose but, on
the other hand, I've got a few quid lying about at the moment... ;-)
Any thoughts/opinions/piss-takes appreciated at this address.
Cheers,
Mat
Andy Derrick
wrote:
>Hmmm...I bought a TR181 about 6 years ago, second hand for a thousand quid.
I bought mine for a thousand in 1992 and part exchanged it in
Birmingham for a thousand !
>It was in perfect nick then and still is now, despite leading a heavy life
>in a gig bag. I first tried the model at Sun Life band in the mid nineties
>and had the opportunity a few months later to try all the other main
>contenders on the market. The Holton, in my opinion, was the best of the lot
>and is why I bought one. I had a brand new one to use in another band,
>though and this one was noticeably poorer in build quality - within a couple
>of weeks, all the laquer had come off the slide where you hold it and the F
>tubing had started to blow.
Funny, I was asked to join Sun Life on bass bone in 1992 but I was
just moving from Bristol to college in Birmingham so I wasn't able to
do it. They were quite persistent. It is a shame the band folded
although I did enjoy doing an All England Masters contest in Cambridge
in 1994 I think and beating Sun Life with a Soveriegn Brass Band from
Smethwick. I don't think you were in it then.
>Maybe I've been lucky with mine, but I really get on with it (with either a
>Bach 1G or a Wick 0AL) and can't see the need to change.
I got on with mine, but it aged very quickly and was almost blown out
by the time I left college. It had ceased to be fun to play and I
spent almost as much time borrowing a Bach 50B30 and a Conn 73H
Bb/F/D. If you are happy, then there is no need to change. However, it
also never hurts to be aware of what is out there.
>Have you tried any of the newer bass bones, Andy and if so, what do you
>think? Are these open wrap configurations and Thayer valves worth the money?
I owned an Edwards with the open wrap and Thayer valves for a few
years. I bought it because I liked the trombone, not because of the
claims made by some of the qualities that open wrap and co-axial flow
valves had. Indeed, I am rather a purist these days. My teacher used
to say "Thayer Valves ? Open Wrap ? next thing they'll bring out is
practice cream and thermal gig bags. There is no substitute for hard
work." Words to live by I feel. Saying that, he got a new Besson with
Hagmann valves a year or so ago and loves it.
>I'm always being complimented on my sound with the Holton and I've built up
>a fiendish reputation with the thing which I wouldn't want to lose but, on
>the other hand, I've got a few quid lying about at the moment... ;-)
By all means keep the Holton, but there is nothing stopping you from
trying another brand. And when I mean try, don't do my trick of trying
4 instruments in the shop for 45 minutes, picking one and then hopping
back on the train. Take it to all your rehearsals with your Holton so
you can make comparisons.
When I buy my next one, I will try as many as possible so I get one I
can live with.
Actikid
>
> Why is it I never hear much from this group on Holton trombones?
I think it is mainly because they aren't in a lot of dealerships. For
years, the impression has been that they have such a good thing going
with french horns thatit is pushing their trombone efforts to the back
burner.
There are dealers in town where I can go try out Getzen, Bach, Conn,
King, Benge, and Yamaha. I don't know of a dealer that has any Holtons
in inventory. I'll take that back. Mars Music does carry Holtons, but
I'm better the only think they stock is a student horn or maybe a valve
trombone.
Jim Rogers
>
>>Why is it I never hear much from this group on Holton trombones?
>>
Of course, the same question could be asked about Besson trombones.
Jim Rogers
Andy Derrick
Of course, they have invested considerably in the new trombones. It
seems to me that British music shops don't actually stock anything new
when it comes to professional trombones. You need specialists like The
Valve to get a new Edwards or Getzen. Of course I understand why with
costs of maintaining an expensive and rarely bought stock, but it is
frustrating that I have to travel miles just to try a decent Bass
Trombone.
Which leads me to a rant that has been brewing for a while. I needed a
slide spray bottle and wanted something small. When I was in a music
shop in Birmingham I asked "Do you sell trombone slide spray bottles ?
The ones that spray water onto the slide ?" The answer I received was
amazing. "No, but we have got valve oil". As an isolated incident,
this merely funny but was repeated by 2 more music shops, all of which
claim to have a brass expert. A plea to all music shop owners. Any
chance of having staff with a little product knowledge ?
G Dunley
"Mat Tab" <tab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7fk31$l2vst$1...@ID-135090.news.dfncis.de...
>
SNIP ... but, on the other hand, I've got a few quid lying about at the
moment... ;-) SNIP!
I can soon remedy that problem for you Mat; I'm something of an expert in
the field!!
Gareth Dunley
Rath R4F and Old Conn 8H and soon to be Olds Super!
Mat Tab
Small world, eh, Andy? I'll be at the Masters in May with Woodfalls Band
from Hampshire so, if you're there, come and grab me for a pint and a natter
afterwards. ;-)
>
> >Maybe I've been lucky with mine, but I really get on with it (with either
a
> >Bach 1G or a Wick 0AL) and can't see the need to change.
>
> I got on with mine, but it aged very quickly and was almost blown out
> by the time I left college. It had ceased to be fun to play and I
> spent almost as much time borrowing a Bach 50B30 and a Conn 73H
> Bb/F/D. If you are happy, then there is no need to change. However, it
> also never hurts to be aware of what is out there.
I keep mine meticulously maintained and cleaned and it seems to be getting
me the results I need, but I have been chatting to other bass bone players
to see what their thoughts on other instruments are. I'm going to keep it
for the area and the Masters but may well have a blow on other models over
the summer.
> By all means keep the Holton, but there is nothing stopping you from
> trying another brand. And when I mean try, don't do my trick of trying
> 4 instruments in the shop for 45 minutes, picking one and then hopping
> back on the train. Take it to all your rehearsals with your Holton so
> you can make comparisons.
>
> When I buy my next one, I will try as many as possible so I get one I
> can live with.
Absolutely, I'm not going to fork out that sort of money unless I'm
absolutely certain it's a major step forward over theHolton. Better the
Devil You Know and all that. Thanks for your thoughts.
Mat
Mat Tab
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:30:30 GMT, Jim Rogers
> <jimmaure...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Of course, they have invested considerably in the new trombones. It
> seems to me that British music shops don't actually stock anything new
> when it comes to professional trombones. You need specialists like The
> Valve to get a new Edwards or Getzen. Of course I understand why with
> costs of maintaining an expensive and rarely bought stock, but it is
> frustrating that I have to travel miles just to try a decent Bass
> Trombone.
Where do you use, Andy? I'm in London.
Mat
Mat Tab
"G Dunley" <gar...@garethdunley.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a7j46g$lk3ji$1...@ID-106259.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Mat Tab" <tab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a7fk31$l2vst$1...@ID-135090.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> SNIP ... but, on the other hand, I've got a few quid lying about at the
> moment... ;-) SNIP!
>
> I can soon remedy that problem for you Mat; I'm something of an expert in
> the field!!
Thanks for the offer, Gareth, but I don't have any problem getting rid of
it.
I just need some assistance converting it into something brass rather than
liquid.
Or female.
;-)
Mat
Andy Derrick
>
> Where do you use, Andy? I'm in London.
>
> Mat
Last time, I bought my Edwards at a place in Beaconsfield. This time, I am
not sure. I suppose I would go up to Huddersfield to Michael Rath, or Phil
Parkers and The Valve in London. Not even these stores would order in a
Greenhoe Bass just on appro.! Saying that I will be buying cash so they may
just indulge me ! Of course I could do what a friend did and fly to the US
to buy a bone. With flight, car hire and hotel, it was still cheaper than
buying here in the UK.
Actikid
>
> I just need some assistance converting it into something brass rather than
> liquid.
>
> Or female.
There's a way to convert trombones into females? I'm all ears, assuming
that there is a way to convert them right back. :)
Mat Tab
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3C9F4457...@netzero.net...
He he, no I meant I want to convert my hard-earned into something brass for
a change, rather than just spending it on the missus...
Mind you it could always work the other way round...how much am I bid for a
young lady? Very pretty, brunette, 5'3, size 10/12, 27 years old, big
chest, open minded?
;-)
Mat
Dale J. Cruse
> young lady? Very pretty, brunette, 5'3, size 10/12, 27 years old, big
> chest, open minded?
>
> ;-)
>
> Mat
Pics, please. ;-)
--
Dale J. Cruse
da...@dalecruse.com
www.dalecruse.com
Professional sites for professional people.
PeterAnderson
Seems like there would be some arbitrage opportunities if the prices are
that far out of whack.
"Andy Derrick" <ne...@andyderrick.com> wrote in message
news:a7ng2v$ksi$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Papagrizbone
was a TR-158, who's rotor-journal-bushings were over-sized (This was a brand
new instrument!). I jumped into my car on a Saturday, after making sure someone
would be there, & took a ride, ready to make heads ROLL!
Instead of having to get ugly with the cust-service/sales-rep, he offered me
a welcomed cup of coffee, talked about Joliet's great bands, then he reached
under his counter, & handed me a brand-new instrument, without even looking at
my original horn's problem!
Treatment like this, lasts a long time, in the old heart of GRIZ...
I think Holton missed out on the marketing "BANDWAGON", years ago when Bach's
were being shoved into every band director's back pocket...causing the
directors to respond like parrots, screeching, "Bach-Bach-Bach", even if all he
ever knew, were "double-reeds"....
The one-word description of the TR-158, which Holton used, was
"LIVELY"....which I found very true....The music seemed to "sling-shot" out of
this horn, quite differently from the way my 88-H plays - I can't really say
which is the better experience, but HOLTON is definitely NOT inferior to
anything in it's relative price-catagory....my daughter needed it, so she got
it! & she loves it....
I'd always wanted to try the TR-159, which is a duo-bore,
.547"-.559"...described by Holton to belt out a real "WOOF"!
From the time I was a kid, I related the Holton "big-gun" horns, as saying,
"WOOF"!
I also think, like in their French-horns, their devlopment of what we call
the "conventional" rotor, came from Holton's R & D department, as much as
anyone else...
All this to say..."Holton is GOOD!"...
Mat Tab
"Dale J. Cruse" <da...@dalecruse.com> wrote in message
news:lDIn8.412828$pN4.27...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> >how much am I bid for a
> > young lady? Very pretty, brunette, 5'3, size 10/12, 27 years old, big
> > chest, open minded?
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Mat
>
> Pics, please. ;-)
Give me a week and I'll try and get you a video... ;-)
Mat
Papagrizbone
>> > young lady? Very pretty, brunette, 5'3, size 10/12, 27 years old, big
>> > chest, open minded?
She doesn't need to be young...a good job would help pay for rental-space on
these trombones!
Mat Tab
"Papagrizbone" <papagr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326175841...@mb-cv.aol.com...
She's got a very well-paid job, thank you, yes. ;-)
Mat