Yet another mouthpiece question
Sacqueboutier
>
> OK - I'm getting used to my new Benge 190, but the mouthpiece I got with
> it isn't very comfortable. It's a Bach 2G, and I play a 6 1/2 AL on my
> bach 36, which I like.
>
> The question is: What mouthpiece has about the diameter of 2G or 3G,
> but a slightly shallower cup (lots of jazz playing) and a somewhat
> broader rim with less of an inside knife edge?
>
> Thanks.
>
> cd
Well, you have a bona fide bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor
trombone. The difference between your two mouthpieces is
quite great. I suggest you purchase a Bach 5GL or 5GS for your Benge.
It is just bit larger than the 6.5 AL so the rim size
won't fell much different. The cup is a little deeper for
a nice dark sound on your large bore tenor, but not as
deep as a plain 5G. I generally avoid the 6.5 AL for large
bore tenor trombones because the sound can get pretty bright.
When you want bright, play your Bach 36. With the 5GS (or
perhaps go the extra yard and get the 5G) on your Benge, you
can have big and dark when you need it. The best of both
worlds.
--
Don Patterson
* DCP Music Printing
* Professional Computer Music Typeset
* Music Arrangements
* don...@erols.com
* Asst. Principal Trombonist
* "The President's Own"
* United States Marine Band
http://www.marineband.hqmc.usmc.mil
The views expressed are my own and in no way
reflect those of "The President's Own" United
States Marine Band or the United States Marine Corps.
carl Dershem
WBean999
Brian Dupuis
Undergraduate Trombonist
Louisiana State University
Sacqueboutier
>
> Unless you're playing a bass trombone, you need to get rid of that mop bucket
>
Yes, try selling to a euphonium player who has
delusions of grandeur.
John and Kathy Lowe
(www.giardinelli.com). Based on that, I'd suggest a trying a Giardinelli
2G or Sym B, or a Denis Wick 2AL or 3AL. I've never been that fond of
Wicks, but I used to play on a Giardinelli 1G that was quite nice. You
may also want to look at a Schilke 57 with modifications (maybe a "B"
cup and a #2 rim), but that's a custom order kind of thing.
BTW - Mr. Patterson is correct in that a Benge 190 is not a bass
trombone. Even UMI (Benge/King/Conn/Artley etc.) calls it a tenor. The
.547" bore is the defining point - "true" bass trombones run around a
.560" (or larger) bore. The 190 is in the same general class as the Bach
42B, King 4B-F, and Conn 88-H. Beware of judging by bell size - the old
King 5B (2105) tenor used the same .547" bore the 4B does, but had a
larger bell (I seem to recall it was just slightly smaller than the old
6B "Duo-Gravis" bass trombone).
The large tenors I've played (Conn 88-H, King 5B, Olds Opera) all had
really "fat" (read "edgy", or even "blatty") low registers, particularly
when used with a big mouthpiece, but it's not the same sound I get from
a bass trombone (unless I want that sound).
John Lowe
carl Dershem wrote:
>
>
> Save for the fact that I said I don't like the rim bach uses, and the fact
> that I said I did like the cup width of the 2G, I still didn't get an answer
> to my question.
> The Benge may be a small-bore bass, but it's still a bass, and can play almost
> any part written for the bass 'bone -- I did Akiyoshi's "Tuning Up" on it
> sunday playing the 4th part, and it got a very nice, fat sound.
>
> To reiterate: I'm looking for suggestions for a mouthpiece with a width about
> like that of the Bach 2G, but with a slightly broader rim withut the sharp
> inner edge to the rim that Bach uses, and a *slightly* shallower cup, as well
> as a bass bone receiver.
>
> cd
carl Dershem
> Well, you have a bona fide bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor
> trombone. The difference between your two mouthpieces is
> quite great. I suggest you purchase a Bach 5GL or 5GS for your Benge.
> It is just bit larger than the 6.5 AL so the rim size
> won't fell much different. The cup is a little deeper for
> a nice dark sound on your large bore tenor, but not as
> deep as a plain 5G. I generally avoid the 6.5 AL for large
> bore tenor trombones because the sound can get pretty bright.
> When you want bright, play your Bach 36. With the 5GS (or
> perhaps go the extra yard and get the 5G) on your Benge, you
> can have big and dark when you need it. The best of both
> worlds.
Save for the fact that I said I don't like the rim bach uses, and the fact
John F Bakker
: Save for the fact that I said I don't like the rim bach uses, and the fact
: that I said I did like the cup width of the 2G, I still didn't get an answer
: to my question.
Yes you did! I would agree with all of the suggestions that Don has given
you, and even add that you don't necessarily need to use a Bach piece.
Denis Wick, Schilke, Yamaha, and several others (these are the more major
ones) all make good mouthpieces, and even Bach makes them with different
rims.
: The Benge may be a small-bore bass, but it's still a bass, and can play almost
: any part written for the bass 'bone -- I did Akiyoshi's "Tuning Up" on it
: sunday playing the 4th part, and it got a very nice, fat sound.
No, the Benge 190 is NOT a bass trombone. It is in fact a large-bore
tenor trombone with an F-attachment. F-attachment tenors are capable of
playing most bass trombone parts, but the sound is not a bass trombone
sound. It may well be fat, it may well be nice, but that still doesn't
make it a bass trombone, and you need to play on a mouthpiece that
matches the horn as well as yourself. A 2G, which is a smaller bass
trombone mouthpiece is not a good match for a tenor trombone. I'm not
going to say to get a certain sized piece, because that is up to you.
Getting a large mouthpiece is fine, but 2G is going a good bit too far. I
can tell you that most professional tenor trombonists are playing on
something with a rim size SIMILAR to that (but not exactly the same) of a
Bach 5 or 4 or a Schilke 51 or 52. Bear in mind that I'm talking about
the pieces that they use when playing a large bore (.547") tenor like you
are.
: To reiterate: I'm looking for suggestions for a mouthpiece with a width about
: like that of the Bach 2G, but with a slightly broader rim withut the sharp
: inner edge to the rim that Bach uses, and a *slightly* shallower cup, as well
: as a bass bone receiver.
The bass bone receiver is the same size as a large bore tenor receiver,
and this may have confused you! Other tenor trombones bored .525 and
lower use mouthpieces with the smaller shank, and when I was younger and
first encountered bass trombones and large bore tenors, I was also
confused as to the difference. My rules of thumb.
1) Valves. If it has two valves, I can almost guarantee that you have a
bass, if it has no valve I can almost guarantee that it is a tenor.
2) Bell size. If the bell is 8.5" or smaller it is a tenor, it the bell
is 9.5" or larger it is a bass.
Those are the major ways I can tell. Don't just go by mouthpiece receiver
size!
Good luck, try many different mouthpieces, and if it's your first large
bore trombone, try using the same size piece (large-bore shank, of
course) as you were on the small bore trombone. When I got an 88H I used
a large shank version of the same size mouthpiece I used when playing a
smaller bore tenor. THEN I found that I wanted something a bit larger for
the sound I wanted on the bigger horn, but at least I got comfortable
with it before switching the mouthpiece as well! Again GOOD LUCK!
Sincerely,
Jon Bakker
"If it doesn't have seven positions, I don't want to play it!"
-Bakker
<><
Sacqueboutier
Good advice.
Welcome home, Mr. Seven-Positions.
carl Dershem
> The bass bone receiver is the same size as a large bore tenor receiver,
> and this may have confused you! Other tenor trombones bored .525 and
> lower use mouthpieces with the smaller shank, and when I was younger and first
> encountered bass trombones and large bore tenors, I was also
> confused as to the difference. My rules of thumb.
After about 25 years of playing,I've run across two basic sizes of mouthpiece
receivers. This horn has the larger one. I admit it isn't a duo gravis, but it
also sure as heck isn't a Bach 16 or a 2B. I know the difference between basses and
tenors.
> 1) Valves. If it has two valves, I can almost guarantee that you have a
> bass, if it has no valve I can almost guarantee that it is a tenor.
It has one. (Open wrap, by the way).
> 2) Bell size. If the bell is 8.5" or smaller it is a tenor, it the bell
> is 9.5" or larger it is a bass.
10" bell.
> Those are the major ways I can tell. Don't just go by mouthpiece receiver size!
>
> Good luck, try many different mouthpieces, and if it's your first large
> bore trombone, try using the same size piece (large-bore shank, of
> course) as you were on the small bore trombone.
I appreciate the (very generic) advice, but am looking for specifics. To wit (once
again):
A mouthpiece with a bass bone receiver, a cup width of 26.5 - 26.7 mm, medium deep,
and a relatively wide rim, that won't cost me an arm and a leg - if I want custom, I
can get one built to my specs, but am looking for a stock or semi-stock piece.
cd
Sacqueboutier
>
> Sacqueboutier wrote:
>
> > Well, you have a bona fide bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor
> > trombone. The difference between your two mouthpieces is
> > quite great. I suggest you purchase a Bach 5GL or 5GS for your Benge.
> > It is just bit larger than the 6.5 AL so the rim size
> > won't fell much different. The cup is a little deeper for
> > a nice dark sound on your large bore tenor, but not as
> > deep as a plain 5G. I generally avoid the 6.5 AL for large
> > bore tenor trombones because the sound can get pretty bright.
> > When you want bright, play your Bach 36. With the 5GS (or
> > perhaps go the extra yard and get the 5G) on your Benge, you
> > can have big and dark when you need it. The best of both
> > worlds.
>
> that I said I did like the cup width of the 2G, I still didn't get an answer
> to my question.
> any part written for the bass 'bone -- I did Akiyoshi's "Tuning Up" on it
> sunday playing the 4th part, and it got a very nice, fat sound.
>
> like that of the Bach 2G, but with a slightly broader rim withut the sharp
> inner edge to the rim that Bach uses, and a *slightly* shallower cup, as well
> as a bass bone receiver.
>
Well, golly gee whiz, Gomer. Ya don't hafta be so uppity
just cause I dint answer yore question the way you wanted.
Did you say you play a Benge 190. I was under the impression
that a Benge 190 was a large bore tenor trombone. I gave you
information that I felt was appropriate for such a horn.
I don't know you from Adam. To me anyone who posts saying
that they are playing a bass trombone maouthpiece on a tenor
trombone sounds like someone not completely knowledgeable
in the area. That is how I answered...in a manner trying to
help someone that I thought needed some advice from a
professional player. If you don't like the answer you get,
it's not necessary to bite my head off.
Now, if you want a cup that wide with a shallower cup and
a wider rim, you must have it custom made. Such parameters
do exist stock on any mouthpiece. Try calling John Stork
or Doug Elliot. Doug Elliot has a large array of rims, cups,
and shanks that can often be mixed and matched. You *might*
ba able to find a combination that suits your tastes.
There, is that better?
EDM5970
both my 88H and my Besson 968 euph. Mop Bucket?
(I do use a 1 1/2 G when I play my 72H.)
Elliott Moxley
John F Bakker
: After about 25 years of playing,I've run across two basic sizes of mouthpiece
: receivers. This horn has the larger one. I admit it isn't a duo gravis, but it
: also sure as heck isn't a Bach 16 or a 2B. I know the difference between basses and
: tenors.
That's right, but large-bore tenors AND bass trombones share mouthpiece
receiver (or shank) sizes. This can be confusing, and therefore in no way
can be used to determine whether the instrument is tenor or bass. If it
was a small shank receiver, you could be sure it was not a bass, but then
it could also be an alto (are the manufacturers listening?! :-)
: > 1) Valves. If it has two valves, I can almost guarantee that you have a
: > bass, if it has no valve I can almost guarantee that it is a tenor.
: It has one. (Open wrap, by the way).
One valve won't help us all that much as many large bore tenors nowadays
include the f-trigger as standard equipment since a lot of tenor
repertoire is more readily facilitated with the f-rotor, and sometimes in
the solo repertoire notes between low E and pedal Bb are called for. As
you also know, bass trombones also have valves, but more and more bass
trombones are being built with two valves. The only bass trombone that I
know that Benge makes is the 290, and it has two valves, open wrap, with
a 10.5" bell.
: > 2) Bell size. If the bell is 8.5" or smaller it is a tenor, it the bell
: > is 9.5" or larger it is a bass.
: 10" bell.
Are you sure you have a Benge 190? The specs that I have on the Benge 190
(from UMI website) Large-bore (symphonic) tenor trombone with open-wrap
f-attachment. 8.5" bell, .547" bore. I believe that included with the
instrument when purchased new is a John Marcellus mouthpiece (Mr.
Marcellus, the trombone prof. at Eastman is a Benge performing artist).
: A mouthpiece with a bass bone receiver, a cup width of 26.5 - 26.7 mm, medium deep,
: and a relatively wide rim, that won't cost me an arm and a leg - if I want custom, I
: can get one built to my specs, but am looking for a stock or semi-stock piece.
Until I know exactly what type of trombone you are playing, I can't in
good conscience advise to you a mouthpiece specifically. If you really
need one, contact one of the larger music stores (Woodwind & Brasswind,
Giardinelli's, etc.) and talk about it with one of their representatives.
I know that they *should* be able to help you out with the wider rim,
shallower cup, large cup diam., and cheap, so I would call them if you
don't like the advice you get here.
But honestly, I would make sure that what I have is a bona fide bass
trombone before I would ever consider playing full-time on a mouthpiece
that large. Another thing that you mentioned was that it was a "smaller
bore bass trombone" or something like that. There is only one current
bore size for bass trombones (well yamaha adds another 1/1000") and it is
.562" (.563" for Yamaha). Anything smaller is a tenor, but since most of
us don't have inside-calipers that precise and accurate that is pretty
hard to judge. Benge usually prints the model # on the bell, i.e. Benge
190 Symphonic or Benge 290 Symphonic or something like that. If you could
tell us what that says, we'd be better able to help you.
Also, go to the United Musical Instruments (UMI) website and look up your
instrument there for specs!
Take care, and again, GOOD LUCK!
Jon Bakker
WBean999
just a matter of personal preference
Sacqueboutier
Are you primarily a bass trombone player? If so, you are not the
first nor only one to use a 3G on tenor. Also, a 3G is a great
euphonium mouthpiece. My brother used it back in the 70s.
John and Kathy Lowe
If a 2G is a mop bucket, what does that make my trusty Schilke 60D
(other than clear evidence that I am, indeed, utterly insane)?????
Must be oxygen deprivation from playing all those tuba parts when the
tuba players don't show.
John Lowe
WBean999 wrote:
>
> Unless you're playing a bass trombone, you need to get rid of that mop bucket
>
cdmmcnamara
Try Doug Elliot, he can match most any need for custom mouthpieces.
By the way I use a Dennis Wick 2AL when playing third parts on a large tenor
and am quite happy with the richness that it offers.
D. McNamara
carl Dershem
> Well, golly gee whiz, Gomer. Ya don't hafta be so uppity
> just cause I dint answer yore question the way you wanted.
> Did you say you play a Benge 190. I was under the impression
> that a Benge 190 was a large bore tenor trombone. I gave you
> information that I felt was appropriate for such a horn.
> I don't know you from Adam. To me anyone who posts saying
> that they are playing a bass trombone maouthpiece on a tenor
> trombone sounds like someone not completely knowledgeable
> in the area. That is how I answered...in a manner trying to
> help someone that I thought needed some advice from a
> professional player. If you don't like the answer you get,
> it's not necessary to bite my head off.
>
> Now, if you want a cup that wide with a shallower cup and
> a wider rim, you must have it custom made. Such parameters
> do exist stock on any mouthpiece. Try calling John Stork
> or Doug Elliot. Doug Elliot has a large array of rims, cups,
> and shanks that can often be mixed and matched. You *might*
> ba able to find a combination that suits your tastes.
>
> There, is that better?
More along the lines of what I was asking for, yes. Thank you very much.
cd
carl Dershem
> trombone before I would ever consider playing full-time on a mouthpiece
> that large. Another thing that you mentioned was that it was a "smaller
> bore bass trombone" or something like that. There is only one current
> bore size for bass trombones (well yamaha adds another 1/1000") and it is .562" (.563"
> for Yamaha). Anything smaller is a tenor, but since most of us don't have
> inside-calipers that precise and accurate that is pretty
> hard to judge. Benge usually prints the model # on the bell, i.e. Benge
> 190 Symphonic or Benge 290 Symphonic or something like that. If you could tell us what
> that says, we'd be better able to help you.
[RANT ON]
Sheesh! Another one that relies on numbers and figures for definitions rather than on
performance. A "bass trombone" is defined by what it does, not what it's measured at,
(unless you're anal retentive or a classical player) and for me a bass is a horn that can
play down to pedal C smoothly with a full, round sound, without fighting you. That is
very possible with a .547 bore, nd many players I know consider that a "small bore bass"
where a .525 bore (like the Bach 36) qualify as a "large bore tenor", a .508 bore as a
tenor, and a .484 bore as godawful small. Call it what you will -- most jazz players I
work with define by function, not form. And I've worked with some of the best. 'Nuff
said.
[RANT OFF]
cd
carl Dershem
Thank you - I'll do that.
cd
Earl
<368BFE6A...@home.com>...
> [RANT ON]
>
> Sheesh! Another one that relies on numbers and figures for definitions
rather than on
> performance. A "bass trombone" is defined by what it does, not what it's
measured at,
> (unless you're anal retentive or a classical player) and for me a bass is
a horn that can
> play down to pedal C smoothly with a full, round sound, without fighting
you. That is
"small bore bass"
> where a .525 bore (like the Bach 36) qualify as a "large bore tenor", a
> tenor, and a .484 bore as godawful small. Call it what you will -- most
jazz players I
> work with define by function, not form. And I've worked with some of the
best. 'Nuff
> said.
>
> [RANT OFF]
Well -- you seem to have a good point, although I don't see too many
people playing a .547 bore on lead jazz parts or a .500 bore on third part
in a large orchestra or symphony. There ARE exceptions, of course, but
they're pretty rare.
Earl
--
Earl Needham, KD5XB
Clovis, NM (N34.403 W103.334)
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76
Remove "NOSPAM" from my return address.
carl Dershem
> Well -- you seem to have a good point, although I don't see too many
> people playing a .547 bore on lead jazz parts or a .500 bore on third part
> in a large orchestra or symphony. There ARE exceptions, of course, but
> they're pretty rare.
The scary part is watching people like Watrous (and a very few others) make
smooth 5 octave runs (or up to 5 1/2) on a Bach 16M, without etting excessively
"blatty".
But no, it isn't common (though I lan on taking the Benge in to a rehearsal band
next monday and trying it for some leads, just to see A) what it sounds like,
and B) if I can do it without hurting myself. I *think* the high d-flat in
"Sunny" might be ... challenging. :o
cd
Sacqueboutier
> >
> > Now, if you want a cup that wide with a shallower cup and
> > a wider rim, you must have it custom made. Such parameters
> > do exist stock on any mouthpiece. Try calling John Stork
> > or Doug Elliot. Doug Elliot has a large array of rims, cups,
> > and shanks that can often be mixed and matched. You *might*
> > ba able to find a combination that suits your tastes.
> >
> > There, is that better?
>
> More along the lines of what I was asking for, yes. Thank you very much.
>
> cd
Can I get his number for you?
Sacqueboutier
> Sheesh! Another one that relies on numbers and figures for definitions rather than on
> performance. A "bass trombone" is defined by what it does, not what it's measured at,
No Carl,
A bass trombone is defined by its specs. Going by your definition
a King 3B with an F attachment would be a bass trombone. There
are players who could make it play that low C without blatting.
However, it would not get the desired sound. Neither does a
.547 tenor. I realize that it can be effectively played on such
a horn, and I play parts like this often myself. One of my
colleagues sounds so big that one might mistake him for a
studio bass trombone at times. However, he is still a tenor
player. He could certainly play the notes and make them
sound good, but he is still playing a tenor.
> (unless you're anal retentive or a classical player) and for me a bass is a horn that can
> play down to pedal C smoothly with a full, round sound, without fighting you. That is
> very possible with a .547 bore, nd many players I know consider that a "small bore bass"
> where a .525 bore (like the Bach 36) qualify as a "large bore tenor", a .508 bore as a
> tenor, and a .484 bore as godawful small. Call it what you will -- most jazz players I
> work with define by function, not form. And I've worked with some of the best. 'Nuff
> said.
There was a time when a .525 *was* considered large bore, but times have
changed. One could not walk into a major symphonic audition playing the
entire time on a Bach 36 and expect to win the job. The concept of
orchestral sound has changed that much in this century. I think that
the Rimsky Korsakov Concerto was written for the bass trombone of his
day (let's just discount those silly 8vas in the Shuman edition), but
that instrument was about the size of today's large bore tenors.
I realize that jazz requires a tighter sound and that 4th bone parts
can be played on a .547, but that doesn't change the specs or label
on the horn. What does Benge call the 190? They call it a tenor.
If you choose to play bass parts on it, that's how it is serving
you.
Sacqueboutier
Certainly would be tough on a 2G. :-)
John and Kathy Lowe
SNIP
>
> But no, it isn't common (though I lan on taking the Benge in to a rehearsal band
> next monday and trying it for some leads, just to see A) what it sounds like,
> and B) if I can do it without hurting myself. I *think* the high d-flat in
> "Sunny" might be ... challenging. :o
>
The challenge is not in playing the note on such a mouthpiece/horn
combination, but in playing it so that it sounds good. I can usually
pick off notes up to f above high b-flat on my bass trombone (Benge 290,
Schilke 60 or 60D), but they don't sound like much - I seem to run out
of overtone series around the high b-flat, and the tone pretty much goes
with it.
John Lowe
carl Dershem
> carl Dershem wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Now, if you want a cup that wide with a shallower cup and
> > > a wider rim, you must have it custom made. Such parameters
> > > do exist stock on any mouthpiece. Try calling John Stork
> > > or Doug Elliot. Doug Elliot has a large array of rims, cups,
> > > and shanks that can often be mixed and matched. You *might*
> > > ba able to find a combination that suits your tastes.
> > >
> > > There, is that better?
> >
> > More along the lines of what I was asking for, yes. Thank you very much.
> >
> > cd
>
> Can I get his number for you?
>
> --
>
> Don Patterson
>
> * DCP Music Printing
> * Professional Computer Music Typeset
> * Music Arrangements
> * don...@erols.com
>
> * Asst. Principal Trombonist
> * "The President's Own"
> * United States Marine Band
That would be very nice, thank you.
By the way ... I used to be a military bandsman myself (during the 70s). What
software do you use for your arrangements?
cd
carl Dershem
A trick I picked up (which works well for me, though nto as well for others) is to
*not* change my embrochure for different horns or mouthpieces. I use a "captured
buzz" embrochure (with some slight modifications in the extreme high and low ends -
say above the treble clef staff on trumpet, and below the bass clef on 'bone), and
after that it just requires me to fill up the horn to get a decent sound most of the
time -- so long as the sound *is* within the reasonable range of the instrument.
Playing in the trumpet register on tuba, for instance, always gets a strange tone, no
matter how much air I put through it, as the sound waves have "too much room to bounce
around" inside the horn.
Of course, it sometimes leaves me more than a bit dizzy, but people expect that of
trombonists. :)
cd
Tom Hill
Sacqueboutier <don...@erols.com> wrote <368D1B...@erols.com>...
> carl Dershem wrote:
> > Sheesh! Another one that relies on numbers and figures for definitions
rather than on
> > performance. A "bass trombone" is defined by what it does, not what
it's measured at,
>
Mr Pattersson wrote:
> No Carl,
>
> A bass trombone is defined by its specs. Going by your definition
> a King 3B with an F attachment would be a bass trombone. There
> are players who could make it play that low C without blatting.
> However, it would not get the desired sound. Neither does a
> .547 tenor. I realize that it can be effectively played on such
> a horn, and I play parts like this often myself. One of my
> colleagues sounds so big that one might mistake him for a
> studio bass trombone at times. However, he is still a tenor
> player. He could certainly play the notes and make them
> sound good, but he is still playing a tenor...
>
I agree with Mr. Pattersson. Add that a Bb bass trombone really is designd
for the F-attachment. That is to privilige resonance in F. While a Tenor
trombone with F-attachment is designed to privilige resonance in Bb.
Tom,
Sacqueboutier
>
> That would be very nice, thank you.
>
> By the way ... I used to be a military bandsman myself (during the 70s). What
> software do you use for your arrangements?
>
> cd
Finale. I am also learning Music Press by Graphire.
--
Don Patterson
* DCP Music Printing
* Professional Computer Music Typeset
* Music Arrangements
* don...@erols.com
* Asst. Principal Trombonist
* "The President's Own"
* United States Marine Band
http://www.marineband.hqmc.usmc.mil
Sacqueboutier
> >
>
> I agree with Mr. Pattersson. Add that a Bb bass trombone really is designd
> for the F-attachment. That is to privilige resonance in F. While a Tenor
> trombone with F-attachment is designed to privilige resonance in Bb.
>
> Tom,
Huh?
I appreciate your agreement, but...huh?
Sacqueboutier
>
> A trick I picked up (which works well for me, though nto as well for others) is to
> *not* change my embrochure for different horns or mouthpieces. I use a "captured
> buzz" embrochure
I've never heard of this concept. Could please explain it to me?
carl Dershem
> carl Dershem wrote:
>
> >
> > A trick I picked up (which works well for me, though nto as well for others) is to
> *not* change my embrochure for different horns or mouthpieces. I use a "captured
> buzz" embrochure
>
> I've never heard of this concept. Could please explain it to me?
It's something I picked up rom Mic Gilette and Bill Watrous -- you basically (there are,
of course, some refinements) find a position for your embrochure whereyou use your horn
more as an amplifier for your buzzing than as a mechanism that both sets your embrochure
and focuses/amplifies the sound. You buzz into he mouthpiece, using only enough
pressure to maintain a good seal to keep air/sound from leaking around the edges, then
use the slide/valves to keep the horn set at the right length to fit the harmonics of
the note you're producing.
It's not at all unusual for the few people I know who pay this way to be able to pull
the horn away from their face while playing and still keep the tone going. It *does*
require a lot of practice just to keep your chops up to where t works, but it's
extraordinary in what it will do for flelibility and range.
Caveats: 1) In the extremes of range, I have to use the mouthpiece more to keep the
embrochure settled -- on the low end, to keep it inside the horn (very messy
otherwise!), and on the high end to keep my lip from tiring too fast. But it can work
very well.
2) It takes a bit more air to work this way (at least for me) at "normal" volumes --
the technique works best at lower dynamics where you can let the music "sing" through
the horn. If you have to play very loud (something I avoid like the plague), you'll end
up blowing yourself out, likely as not, or reverting to a more perssure-oriented
embrochure.
cd
ps - It took me some 3 years to get comfortable using this technique reliably, but I was
able to transition gradually to it as my chops got stronger. Of course, playing 10-12
hours a day in the navy band helped there!
Andy Derrick
wrote:
>carl Dershem wrote:
>
>>
>> A trick I picked up (which works well for me, though nto as well for others) is to
>> *not* change my embrochure for different horns or mouthpieces. I use a "captured
>> buzz" embrochure
>
>I've never heard of this concept. Could please explain it to me?
I think it is called cheating, i.e. changing your embouchure for the
note.
--
Andy Derrick
Check out Jupiter Collision site at:
http://www.andekmusic.demon.co.uk/jupiter/
Tom Hill
Sacqueboutier <don...@erols.com> wrote <368D64...@erols.com>...
> Tom Hill wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > I agree with Mr. Pattersson. Add that a Bb bass trombone really is
designd
> > for the F-attachment. That is to privilige resonance in F. While a
Tenor
> > trombone with F-attachment is designed to privilige resonance in Bb.
> >
> > Tom,
>
> Huh?
>
> I appreciate your agreement, but...huh?
>
>
> --
"huh?" No offence, but is this a question?
Tom, :-)
sab...@mindspring.com
>John and Kathy Lowe wrote:
>> carl Dershem wrote:
>> SNIP
>> >
>> > But no, it isn't common (though I lan on taking the Benge in to a rehearsal band
>> next monday and trying it for some leads, just to see A) what it sounds like, and
>> B) if I can do it without hurting myself. I *think* the high d-flat in "Sunny"
>> might be ... challenging. :o
>> >
>> > cd
>>
>> The challenge is not in playing the note on such a mouthpiece/horn
>> combination, but in playing it so that it sounds good. I can usually
>> pick off notes up to f above high b-flat on my bass trombone (Benge 290,
>> Schilke 60 or 60D), but they don't sound like much - I seem to run out
>> of overtone series around the high b-flat, and the tone pretty much goes
>> with it.
>>
>> John Lowe
>A trick I picked up (which works well for me, though nto as well for others) is to
>*not* change my embrochure for different horns or mouthpieces. I use a "captured
>buzz" embrochure (with some slight modifications in the extreme high and low ends -
>say above the treble clef staff on trumpet, and below the bass clef on 'bone),
===============================
What do you mean by a "captured buzz" embouchure?
S.
---snip---
Sacqueboutier
>
> Sacqueboutier <don...@erols.com> wrote <368D64...@erols.com>...
> > Tom Hill wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I agree with Mr. Pattersson. Add that a Bb bass trombone really is
> designd
> > > for the F-attachment. That is to privilige resonance in F. While a
> Tenor
> > > trombone with F-attachment is designed to privilige resonance in Bb.
> > >
> > > Tom,
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > I appreciate your agreement, but...huh?
>
> "huh?" No offence, but is this a question?
It is my response to a question that I could not
quite understand. I am not familiar with the
term "privilige resonance in F" or "privilige
resonance in Bb". I guess I missed class that day.
--
Sacqueboutier
>
> Tom wrote:
> > > "huh?" No offence, but is this a question?>
>
> > It is my response to a question that I could not
> > quite understand. I am not familiar with the
> > term "privilige resonance in F" or "privilige
> > resonance in Bb". I guess I missed class that day.
> >
> > --
>
> Okay, problems with translation here. The "term" that I envented means just
> what you said, that a bass trombone is defined by its specifications. My
> add is that size of bell, length, diameter and the way the bass trombone is
> designed makes partials on the F-attachment very resonant, making it a Bb
> horn built to give best performance in F, while the tenor with attachment
> is designed to give best resonance to partials without using the
> F-attachment and the attachment has really an negative effect to resonance
> on small tenors in their upper register.
>
> ,making sense??
>
> Tom,
Thank you.
Tom Hill
Tom Hill
> ...F-attachment and the attachment has really an negative effect to
resonance
> on small tenors in their upper register.
correction:
Sorry, the F-attachment has really a negative effect on resonance on any
trombone in the upper register. I was thinking of the King 3B with
attachment that you mentioned earlier. I wouldn't recommend this horn for
anything. Low partials on the F-attachment is not helped by design and
resonance in high register is negative effected by the attachment.
,just another add :-)
Tom,
Gary Sloane
low C's, etc., but to avoid fast reaches to 6th and 7th positions
and to allow an occasional low Eb or D...at least that's what's
claimed in King's promotional literature, and it's what I find it
useful for. Think of the lead line in "Godchild" in Ab, for instance.
The only disadvantage I can perceive in the 3B w/F-attachment compared
to the straight horn is the extra weight, which is insignificant; and
I don't think anybody will fault it, in brass or in sterling silver,
as an all-around jazz horn.
YMMV.
In article <01be36b5$7aa3fae0$0f6b...@win95.swipnet.se>, "Tom Hill"
<tomas.hi...@swipnet.se> wrote:
***********************************
* Gary Sloane slo...@batnet.com *
* ERRATA: For errata read erratum *
***********************************
g
appreciate more volume without the risk of blaring. I have used a 6 1/2 AL
for years and am interested in your comments on the 5GL, 5GS, and 5G. What
are the physical differences among these mouthpieces and what does this do to
the sound? How easy would it be to switch between very different mouthpieces
when playing different styles? I normally handle this problem without changes
in equipment, but I can use any help I can get!
Thanks
Greg
Sacqueboutier wrote:
> carl Dershem wrote:
> >
> > OK - I'm getting used to my new Benge 190, but the mouthpiece I got with
> > it isn't very comfortable. It's a Bach 2G, and I play a 6 1/2 AL on my
> > bach 36, which I like.
> >
> > The question is: What mouthpiece has about the diameter of 2G or 3G,
> > but a slightly shallower cup (lots of jazz playing) and a somewhat
> > broader rim with less of an inside knife edge?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > cd
>
> Well, you have a bona fide bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor
> trombone. The difference between your two mouthpieces is
> quite great. I suggest you purchase a Bach 5GL or 5GS for your Benge.
> It is just bit larger than the 6.5 AL so the rim size
> won't fell much different. The cup is a little deeper for
> a nice dark sound on your large bore tenor, but not as
> deep as a plain 5G. I generally avoid the 6.5 AL for large
> bore tenor trombones because the sound can get pretty bright.
> When you want bright, play your Bach 36. With the 5GS (or
> perhaps go the extra yard and get the 5G) on your Benge, you
> can have big and dark when you need it. The best of both
> worlds.
WBean999
>appreciate more volume without the risk of blaring. I have used a 6 1/2 AL
>for years and am interested in your comments on the 5GL, 5GS, and 5G. What
>are the physical differences among these mouthpieces and what does this do to
>the sound? How easy would it be to switch between very different mouthpieces
>when playing different styles? I normally handle this problem without
>changes
>in equipment, but I can use any help I can get!
>
>Thanks
>Greg
I play on a 5G and I find I get a darker, richer, and more consistent and
mature tone than with the 6 1/2....
hope that helped..
Brian Dupuis
Undergraduate Trombonist
Louisiana State University
Zemry
>mature tone than with the 6 1/2....
>
>
What are the physical differences between the 5G and the 61/2AL? How would a
switch affect my lower and upper register?
And remember....The toads march off to war at noon.
Jon Vision
wbea...@aol.com (WBean999) wrote:
i was on a 6.5, and went down to my music store one day for fun, i played
on a 5G, and was fairly impressed. next, however, i played on a Denis
Wick 4. Geez... I loved it. (I walked out of the store with it, and
haven't looked back.) however, i have a really big embochure (okay, okay,
so i have fat lips...) and i big set of lungs for all the air that
mouthpiece requires.
> >I play a Bach 42B in a community orchestra. Sometimes (this week), I would
> >appreciate more volume without the risk of blaring. I have used a 6 1/2 AL
> >for years and am interested in your comments on the 5GL, 5GS, and 5G. What
> >are the physical differences among these mouthpieces and what does this do to
> >the sound? How easy would it be to switch between very different mouthpieces
> >when playing different styles? I normally handle this problem without
> >changes
> >in equipment, but I can use any help I can get!
> >
> >Thanks
> >Greg
>
>
>
> I play on a 5G and I find I get a darker, richer, and more consistent and
> mature tone than with the 6 1/2....
>
> hope that helped..
>
>
> Brian Dupuis
> Undergraduate Trombonist
> Louisiana State University
--
any legitimate mail welcome, simply remove "nospam" from the addy. (jvi...@mindspring.com)
Dave Molter
works well. However, the other guysin my section have straight .500 bore
tenors, so I'm not really interested in too dark a sound. I also have a Denis
Wick 5ABL, which isn't quite as deep as the 5G Bachs. It takes some getting
used to, in my opinion. If you're interested in specs, check out the Selmer
site --www.selmer.com -- under brass accessories for a complete discussion of
Bach mouthpieces and tips for choosing a new one. Giardinelli --
www.giardinelli.com -- has a reference chart comparing Bach, Wick, Schilke and
their own brand of mouthpieces. Giardinelli also will let you order several
MPs to try and return the ones you don't want, although there may be a slight
restcking fee. I've found them to be very accomodating and trustworthy. Good luck.
Dave Molter
Pittsburgh, PA
WBean999
Brian Dupuis